7.08.2009

Palin the Polarizer

The Obama campaign's response to John McCain's selection of Sarah Palin as his 2008 running mate was to argue that the Arizona senator had ruined his narrative of being the seasoned, experienced candidate by coupling himself with an unseasoned novice. An online article in Religion Dispatches written this week by Robert Jones and Daniel Cox confirms the Obama camp's assertion that McCain ruined his story, but suggests that it had less to do with the Arizona senator's experiential claims than his ability to present himself as a non-polarizing, post-partisan politician.


Using numbers from a post-election poll, Jones and Cox conclude that Palin damaged McCain's brand because her style evoked the kind of polarizing politics that Americans had grown sick of--and to which, not coincidentally, Barack Obama offered himself as an antidote.

Noting that her selection only had a net positive effect on support for the Republican ticket among white evangelicals, with a net negative effect among white Catholics and Independents (as depicted above), Jones and Cox ask:

So what explains the large gap for many between identifying with Palin’s values and supporting her as a candidate? Part of the explanation certainly has to be her many now-famous stumbles, public gaffes, and lack of knowledge about key policies. But there is another important explanation. There is mounting evidence that the American electorate is turning away from so-called “values voter” wedge politics that Palin represented (recall that Palin launched her career by using an anti-abortion rights hit piece against her opponent in the Wasilla mayoral race, an historically non-partisan position).

In our post-election survey, an overwhelming majority (73%) of American voters agreed that “people of faith should advocate for policies that protect the interests of all and promote the common good” compared to only 22% who preferred pursuing “policies that protect their values and way of life.” By a nearly 2-to-1 margin, those favoring a common good politics said Palin’s addition made them less likely to support the GOP ticket (27% less likely vs. 15% more likely).

One might quibble with these results on (at least) two grounds. First, the poll was taken after the election McCain-Palin had just lost, so it's possible that respondents overstated their negative views of her. The second thing that's hard to ignore is the fact that at least half the voters overall, and within each subgroup, say Palin made no difference to their decision. In short, she either didn't matter, or if she did Palin evoked a polarizing sentiment that, on balance, hurt McCain more than it helped him.

"The avalanche of coverage since Palin’s resignation indicates that pundits are likely to continue their conjectures about Palin’s motives and political future," write Jones and Cox. "But the numbers reveal her limitations as a national political figure, and her serious liabilities among virtually every religious and demographic group outside of the GOP base. Moreover, the numbers reveal that voters across the political spectrum are looking not only for candidates who share their values, but for candidates who can ably serve the common good."

As I said yesterday, whatever her plans, I think Palin's ambitions in presidential politics were significantly if not irrevocably damaged by the sudden announcement of her resignation. Her type of politics may sell in Alaska--though Jones and Cox note that Palin's approval numbers have plummeted at home, too--but she just doesn't sell nationally. She's not merely fighting the last war, but the last generation's war. And that generation and today's generation have largely grown tired of fighting.

But Palin will continue to serve as an icon for those still fighting those wars. Which is why I'm betting she will end up as a television or radio personality, a position ideally suited to her style of politics and her specific appeal to a small and shrinking, yet rabid and animated segment of the American public. Palin may not have a lot of governing experience, but she does have enough experience (and appetite) as a national polarizing agent, a role that seems to come to her naturally. Once Palin gets out of Alaska, does her book tour and, presumably, abandons her presidential ambitions--or even if she runs and fails miserably in 2012--she will be free to make the transformation into her truer, more natural political self.

80 comments

Steve said...

Schaller, just admit you're in love with Sarah Palin already.

Jose said...

Senate Rankings coming soon?

G Chris said...

Remember McCain-Palin were up by 7 over Obama-Biden after the conventions. 'It was the economy...stupid'...and will be again in 2010 and 2012.

Pragmatus said...

Sarah Palin is sinking into a self-created tarpit of vanity, willful ignorance and skin-deep philosophizing. I’d bet money that a year from now she will be such a zero that her antics will garner scant attention in the press.

She’s like a big gassy balloon made of paper. As soon as a little weathering sets in—pffft.

Bradford said...

Nice post, you premise is supported at Gallup (linked below) where they show a move toward conservative in voters recently, but no real movement on the "wedge" issues which might indicate that good old school fiscal conservatism is coming back.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121403/Special-Report-Ideologically-Moving.aspx?CSTS=alert

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

G Chris said...

"Remember McCain-Palin were up by 7 over Obama-Biden after the conventions. 'It was the economy...stupid'...and will be again in 2010 and 2012."

G Chris, read up on post convention bounces. It's a phenomenon of the GE's.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/did-mccain-really-get-bigger-bounce.html

Aaron said...

I'll toss in another reason that would lead to a similar split (but one that would be tough to verify with numbers) -- Sarah Palin reminds people of George W. Bush on the most gutteral, instinctive levels.

The regional accent, the lack of intellectual curiosity, the "us vs. the world" mentality... all of it makes Palin the true successor to GWB.

Thus it would follow that picking Palin would energize white evangelicals while alienating Catholics and independents. She had a magnifying effect -- sending independents further to Obama's camp, and drawing evangelicals to McCain.

Would a different VP pick have led to a McCain victory? Probably not. But a different name could have tightened the gap a bit.

G Chris said...

liberal_defender...

It was a neck and neck race up to the conventions. McCain-Palin had a larger bounce than Obama-Biden, but probably not a significant difference. It was the economy tanking that gave the 'out-party' the real bounce that lasted to Nov. 4. The Republicans are the 'out party' and will benefit if the economy does not rally by next year...assuming they can get their act together and have a spokesperson. The 'Palin effect' described in the article was irrelevant to the outcome of the election. VP choices rarely are game changers. Thanks for your thoughts.

Elijah said...

Can you update the electoral history link to include '08 results?

mngoose33 said...

@ Steve,

What did Tom say that makes you think he's a Palin fan? He seemed pretty balanced to me...

Auros said...

In the next electoral cycle, somebody needs to start conducting longitudinal polls -- building a sample of, say, 10,000 voters, who will be contacted weekly to answer a few questions. (You'd probably have to pay people a bit to encourage participation.) That way we can actually gauge the effects of news events, and see how many people actually change their answers from one week to the next. With this kind of post-hoc snapshot polling, you have no idea how many of the people who say that Palin made them "more likely" to vote for McCain, were already planning to vote for him anyhow and would say that the sun rising on election day made them "more likely" to vote for him. (And vice versa.)

Opus 132 said...

Still another Palin thread?

YAWN

mngoose33 said...

@Opus

I admit that I'm getting sick of all the Palin news, too. I think the media devoted way too much attention to her throughout the campaign and continues to do so today (as evidenced by the David Letterman "controversy"). However, when a governor resigns out of the blue and doesn't cite a specific reason for doing so--particularly when that governor just ran for Vice President 6 months ago--that is a huge news story that deserves to be covered, regardless of who the governor actually is. Tom's analysis isn't doting or judgmental...it's looking at a study that's based largely on polling data, analyzing its validity, and offering some original insights as well. I don't see anything wrong with that.

STepper said...

Tom - a phrase like this doesn't mean what you think it does and is embarassing from a college professor:

it had less to do with the Arizona senator's experiential claims than his ability to present himself as a non-polarizing, post-partisan politician.

Perhaps we should say Perfesser, since the phrase is a Palinism.

Why use "experiential" (which doesn't fit here and is awkward) when "experience" or its past participle will do?

Other than that, I find this another pretty vapid post. You need to stick to statistics and let others talk politics.

cbob said...

Palin benefited the McCain campaign by energizing their base, small town voters who supported Mike Huckabee. After the primaries, McCain's main problem rested with luring the Huckabee voter back into the fold. This voter lives in communities one hour away from large metropolitan areas (1 million or more people) and sees they are being "Left Behind" as their smartest children leave them for those large cities and their suburbs. The children that stay usually marry young (before 25) and more of them start having children before marriage. Typically they work in manufacturing or logistics where they learned at an early age they could earn good money performing a trade versus spending good money on an education.

Facts and accuracy take a back seat to faith and perception. What you see and hear directly is more real than what you learn from a book, article or research. This voter was skeptical of McCain because he had mocked them in the past; Palin not only embraced them but is one of them. The bad news is, they are the ones who are most hurt by this economic downturn and they are the ones who are demographically shrinking.

Much like William Jennings Bryan in 1896, Palin speaks to people who are losing their way of life because progress is getting in the way. Palin knows that in places like Evansville, IN, Cape Girardeau, MO and Jackson, MS she can find people like this and they can propel her to greater wealth and fame...or so she thinks.

Dopper said...

As much as conservatives wish to push this idea "it was the economy, McCain was tied" it's just not true. Obama had an electoral college lead (remember state polls are the only ones that matter) for the entire summer and fall, EXCEPT for 4 days after the GOP convention when John McCain went up in Colorado by 2%. This is a fact go back and look at the state polls.

The whole reason parties hold conventions is that it's a week long infomercial. They dominate media converge for a week and get a bounce. Nate did a study of the last 12 conventions (6 for each party) and the McCain pounce fell in the exact middle of the polling bounce range! Remember Dukakis was in the lead after his, frikin' Mondale was nearly tied with Reagan after his.

I'm sorry that so many people are invested in the CW pundit spin, but most pundits can't read polling, and don't actually analyze polls. The Chuck Todds of the world are few and far between. Historical data doesn't back up there assertions. please provide polling that will counter my argument. Go to pollster.com.

The key to Obama was he was so strong in VA, Iowa, New Mexico, that he could have lost FL AND Ohio and won. He also was in the driver seat in NV, and ahead in Colorado. Palin never made a DENT in Obama's lead in those state once the euphoria settled down. The week after Palin was picked was the 1st time Obama moved ahead in Florida. John McCain's numbers tanked amongst Jews and Latinos in Florida. It seems she turned both groups off, Obama was the 1st democrat to win a majority of FL's Latinos, and Obama's alleged Jewish problem evaporated. I assume (no data to back this up) that her extreme evangelicalism (Jews) and her closeness to militia groups (Latinos) turned them off. Go back and look at the polls this is also a fact. Once the mayor of Detroit resigned Obama's narrow lead in Michigan (2%) started to expand (5% 2 weeks later), yes Killpatrick's tenure was inflaming racial tensions. The economy at that point, and McCain's statement then pushed Michigan into safe territory, but it was already moving that way. Mccain's Pennsylvania push never gained much traction. He never got much momentum in any other Gore/Kerry blue states except Minnesota the sight of the convention and Pawlenty was a rumored pick, but Obama ended up winning MN easily.

Spin doesn't work here, there are too many of us who have access to polling data.

slasher14 said...

Palin is of a piece with other extreme conservatives such as Limbaugh, Coulter, etc., but the major difference in her case is that she actually got elected to office and thus acquired a gravitas that they have not. McCain would never have chosen Coulter or Limbaugh as a running mate, but he chose Palin because, in addition to firming up the right wing of his base (which didn't particluarly like him), her holding office provided the illusion that she would not be a polarizing figure.

One assumes that an elected official was able to appeal to more than a very narrow spectrum of opinion in order to win. Thus the first reaction to Palin from those who might be described as being "in the middle" was not at all unfavorable. As the campaign wore on, however, it became obvious that she was not only on the extreme right, but was also unable to demonstrate the gravitas that many assumed had led to her winning office in the first place. The combination was deadly. Even those who might have been willing to overlook, say, her position on abortion were unwilling to trust the second highest office in the land to someone whose knowledge of the issues was so obviously missing.

It's my belief, therefore, that leaving office will hurt her far worse than she realizes, because now there is no reason to see her as other than a brunette Ann Coulter. And even people who agree with Ann Coulter don't want to see her running the country.

Vern said...

Palin is still being misread as a social/culture warrior. Her appeal is actually far closer to that of Ron Paul or even better, Ross Perot.

The small government side of the GOP was sold out utterly by Bush II, much they way Bush I did it to them leading to Perot and the general disgust "outsider" wing.

I could imagine Palin running as a third party if someone like Romney runs, with results similar to Perot's.

The real schism in the GOP is between the true small government wing (Reagan, Paul, etc.) and the "good government" wing (Bush, Romney, etc.)

Palin's supposed use of social wedge issues in Wasilla is a canard. She far more ran as a Perot style whistle-blowing independent, just with the R behind her name. She's never used social issues in anything close to the way she has used the "reformer from the outside" message.

This is also why she needs to be out of office - so she can credibly claim to be an outsider.

Social issues and "plain speaking" were a cultural cover that W Bush and Rove used to hide W's otherwise unpopular "compassionate" (aka big) government views. The whole "values" phenom in 2004 was only because two established big government candidates were the options, so what else was there to distinguish them?

Mark said...

@Auros

The American National Election Survey is not quite what you are suggesting, but it could be built in to some degree (adding some questions, maybe a new time point or two). However, I think the weekly surveys would actually work to solidify a persons opinions/attitudes, because people would work to maintain consistent answers for the survey administrator. I think only huge events would impact this. Further, it would be difficult (but possible) to isolate the impact of a particular event.

It is important to note that to get a representative sample with a solid chance of being predictive you wouldn't need anywhere near 10,000 people. Careful sampling can accomplish the same goal with 20% of the participants.

Josh said...

I'm not convinced that Palin will not end up as the Republican nominee in 2012. Look at the new Gallup numbers where 43% say they are at least "somewhat likely" to vote for her. And a large % of Republicans (35%) are "very likely" ... I think if she runs she'll actually be the GOP front-runner because Romney isn't that popular and nobody else (other than Huckabee) is that well known. Huckabee could confuse matters... All I'm saying is that I Sarah Palin has some really passionate supporters (who happen to be insane but that's another issue) and... I don't think any other GOP potential nominee has the same type of passionate support.

I do think the economy would have to be going EXTREMELY poorly for Obama to lose to Palin in a GE... but Jesus Christ, there are still a lot of loons in this country - and anything is possible.

Adam said...

Palin is not going to be the nominee in 2012. All one has to do is listen to the GOP talking heads. Anyone with half a brain knows that Palin is not presidential material. The trick is to find subtle ways to communicate that message without making the masses jump ship in revolt against what they perceive to be Unfair Palin Persecution.

Listen to Hannity. He's quick to rail about how Palin got a raw deal in the media (she did get a raw deal. Can anyone imagine any comedian ever uttering anything about Obama's kids? Even the Bush daughters basically got a hands off approach). But the point is that no matter how much Hannity defends her - you certainly don't hear him cheering her on as his choice of a presidenital candidate for 2012. Same thing with Limbaugh. He'll talk her up and tell his radio listeners that she has got the right pulse for American Conservatism - but if push came to shove he would not back her in a primary contest. Coulter is the same way. She speaks of how Palin needs to be schooled in a way Margaret Thatcher was in order to comunicate effectively. Krauthammer, if you listen closely, is not about to march in the Palin Parade either.

Unless someone emerges that blows everyone's socks off, the nominee is going to be Romney. Romney is acceptable to all factions of the GOP and the Evangelicals will accept him. After all, if not for the Huckaboom, Romney would have won Iowa. He's sharp on economics and articulate - and that is something the GOP has lacked in a presidential candidate since 1992.

Palin has the problem as Huckabee. She can't win Republican primary contests in blue states. And there are a lot of delegates in NY, IL, CA, NH, MA, CT, etc.

So all of this talk of Palin is going to seem like old news once she rides off into the Alaskan sunset in a few weeks. She'll raise money for GOP candidates, quite effectively, east of the Rockies and west of the Appalachians. But that's all she is going to do.

-Brando said...

Why does the Sarah PAC keep advertising here?! I know this isn't a highly partisan blog, focusing on statistical analysis and objectivity, but there's no doubt those of us who read this site tend to be left leaning, certainly not Sarah Palin's base. Wth?

mea2214 said...

Remember that in 2007 the pundits and most polls had Rudy Guiliani as the clear Republican favorite to win the nomination. They were totally wrong. It's way too early to claim Sarah Palin has any shot at winning the Republican nomination. The only way she wins the primary is if the economy turns around and Obama has a clear road to a landslide victory ala 1984 or 1996. Any legitimate Republican candidates will be smart to keep their powder dry until 2016 so they'll happily throw Palin out as a sacrificial lamb.

If the economy is still a mess in 2012 and there is blood in the water so to speak, the legitimate Republican candidates will crush Palin as bad as Guiliani got crushed in 2008.

Bob from Illinois said...

Palin is so done. Why isn't 538 done with her? With cap and trade and health care reform front and center on the agenda, you'd wonder why there has been so much here on Palin.

Give it a rest. Please.

Hoosier Paul said...

Glad to see the large disparity between Evangelicals and White Catholics. As a Catholic, it bugs the crap out of my that we're often lumped today with evangelicals when discussing politics or "culture war" issue.

markymark said...

I am beginning to wonder if what we won't see is Palin running in 2012 and being an early front runner but then flaming out spectacularly, partly caused by the debates and morning talk shows, essentially for not being able to explain effectively why she 1 quit as Governor and 2 should be President.

I am half expecting a kind of Russert/David Duke moment. Now the interesting thing here is whether or not she can avoid the Sunday morning talk shows. Can she spin that as her not being a 'coventional candidate'?? But even if she can avoid the 'MTP Primary' she won't be able to avoid the debates, and that moment could crop up in a debate. Imagine Gov Romney 'Governor Palin, here is what I achieved in my last 18 months as Governor... Now why should voters choose someone who didn't even try to achieve in her last 18 months in office?'

jsconway said...

@auros

Continuing Mark's comments, a difficulty of a panel study like the one you proposed is not just that members would try to make themselves consistent over time but that the act or being surveyed affects their interest in, and attention to, politics, thus making the panel unrepresentative.

There is a way around this, but it costs far too much money, since it requires constantly adding new interviewees to gauge the difference between the panel and the population it was once a random sample of.

I did a paper looking at this problem for my research methodology class some 43 years ago. Since I have long since dropped out of academia I do not have good memory of what I wrote, but I seem to recall that in order to fully "staff" a panel with three separate interview sequences took a sample of about 3-4 times the "base" level (If you wanted a 400 person sample you would need about 1500 people in the panel), and this would have had a large enough margin of error that shifts of less than 7-8% would not be statistically signficant.

Pragmatus said...

Brando…

Sarah Palin (shouldn’t we just call her Sarin, as in the deadly nerve gas?) has proved remarkably adept at fishing in the wrong waters, hence the ads for her PAC which appear here. Of course they have to pay for the ad space on 538.com, and of course that money is thrown away, but isn’t throwing opportunity away one of her most enduring traits? After the Osgood interview any sensible person would have started cramming to avoid any further embarrassment in front of the TV cameras, but what did Sarah do? She practiced her winking skills.

markymark said...

Hoosier Paul, as a fellow Catholic my view is that the confusion is caused by the fact that the 'culture war' is often shorthand for abortion. But I think what some don't figure out is that the 'split' between a catholic's loyalty between the state and the pope means that they live out the seperation between religion and the state everyday in there own mind. Therefore its not hard for a Catholic to talk a relatively liberal political attitude to issues such as abortion, whilst maintaining a more conservative religious/social view.

Brad Templeman said...

Even though I do not even think she will be President, sitting out the 2012 race and likely seeing the Republican candidate (Romney, Huckabee...) lose big, will add to her appeal with many people in the party.

After another boring convention speech by the 2012 nomimee, her loyal followers in the party will wonder how well she would have done and the same goes for the debates. This will likely cause even more of a backlash against the media within the party because of the perception that they set out to destroy her.

She probably can never win nationally, but that will not stop people from trying to lure her back in after 2012 to be the "true" conservative in the next race.

Dwight said...

The real schism in the GOP is between the true small government wing (Reagan, Paul, etc.) and the "good government" wing (Bush, Romney, etc.)

It is so weird that Reagan gets tossed into the "small government" wing. He wasn't. Like so many things, like the , he talked the talk but in the end he was very Bushesque in not really walking the walk. He did the same thing with the evangelical wing, gave them enough lip service and tokens to placated them and get their vote. But push to shove he merely tolerated their presence. He was the true smoke and mirrors master, he made a big tent where people didn't think they had to compromise.

Which is why when the GOP tries to look to Reagan-the-myth as a model for how to proceed things just don't add up.

Ron Paul on the other hand, yeah he's the real "small government" deal. I also agree that Sarah is much more Ross Perot than people seem to take away. Folksy-saying spewing "maverick" fruitloop that pedals a somewhat watered down Ron Paul. I saw watered down because where Reagan differed from Ron Paul is one of those gaping, nebulous voids in the substance of Palin. It's hard to compare her because she hasn't actually got a story.

Pragmatus said...

Off topic but interesting…

Looks like Rod Blagojevich is going to have trouble claiming innocence when he’s tried on charges he attempted to sell Obama’s Senate seat. With this key aide flipping on him, Blago’s goin’ down!

Pragmatus said...

Reagan as “small government” president…

What a laugh. Go here and scroll down to the table which shows the public debt by decade. In 1980, at the start of the “Reagan Revolution” the national debt was a little over 900 billion. By 1990 (Reagan left office in 1989) it had ballooned to 3.2 trillion.

If you look at the entire Reagan phenomenon it is easy to see what a house of cards it was. I said then, and I continue to maintain, that Reagan will be remembered as the worst president of the 20th Century.

Adam said...

Pragmatus,

Except that Reagan won the cold war. I give him a pass on national defense spending.

Just curious, if a ballooning national debt is your barometer of success, how is Obama doing?

RWD said...

"Why does the Sarah PAC keep advertising here?!...there's no doubt those of us who read this site tend to be left leaning, certainly not Sarah Palin's base. Wth?"

I doubt the PAC specifically chooses to advertise on this site. My guess is that Google's ad service, or some other ad service, places the ads here (on behalf of the PAC) b/c this is a political site. A search engine has a hard time distinguishing between a political site that would be sympathetic to Palin and one that would not. And since Palin's name comes up so much, the search bot probably thinks its relatively fertile ground.

Someone from the site can sure correct me if I'm wrong, but I bet the site has an agreement with Google (or someone) and neither 538.com, nor the people placing the ads, have specifically requested to have any of the ads you see placed on 538.com.

Pragmatus said...

Reagan “won the cold war”…

..is an even bigger laugh. The Soviet Union collapsed because communism is unworkable unless you keep everybody (and everything) under iron restraints. The USSR began its slide to oblivion as soon as Gorbachev introduced perestroika (restructuring) and glasnost (openness) to the Soviet political world.

This silly claim about Reagan is something thrown up by PR people desperate to find something great to associate with his name. History has a wonderful way of feeding PR through the meat grinder, as will happen with this particular bit of lunacy.

And who said a ballooning national debt is a barometer of success? I can only infer that you are upset because your folks (i.e. the GOP) can no longer raid the Treasury with such impunity. Go back to that link I posted earlier and see where all the recent mountains of debt came from—Reagan, Bush I and Bush II. The debt-as-percentage-of-GDP graph demonstrates clearly that only time the national debt declined over the past thirty years was when Clinton was in office.

Maybe you can get the corpse of Ronald Reagan to win the war over the deficit? It can’t be any deader than when he was alive.

persuter said...

"Just curious, if a ballooning national debt is your barometer of success, how is Obama doing?"

Well, according to your barometer, he's a "small-government president". During Reagan's term, the debt increased 16% per year on average. This is exactly what Obama's current deficit will increase the debt. Sadly, Obama's forecast budgets do not plan to maintain Reagan's pace, but hey - it's tough for anyone to keep up with the Great Spender.

Adam said...

Oh please. Jimmy Carter didn't seem to think that the Soviet Union was about to collapse. The Communists were certainly on the march on El Savador and Grenada and Afghanistan. It wasn't until Reagan forced them to spend money they didn't have on defense systems that the Russian Bear began to choke.

Had he not done so there is no guarantee that the system would have collapsed. A few modifications here or there and its not far-fetched to think that the USSR couldn't have developed an autocratic system similar to the China of the 2000's.

And on the prospect of mountains of debt, when you compare Reagan, Bush I and II with what Obama has planned (9.3T over the next ten years) you're making mountains out of molehills.

You're right that national debt declines occurred in the 1990's - but Republicans in congress get at least as much credit as Clinton. The bottom line is that BOTH PARTIES spend more than they ought to, and the problem gets worse when both parties get exclusive control. Divided government is the best remedy for this real problem.

persuter said...

"Reagan “won the cold war”…

..is an even bigger laugh."

The most remarkable thing about that little myth is that the Cold War did not end until well after Reagan left office. These are the same guys who want to blame the economic crisis on Obama, yet they're happy to claim Reagan was responsible for the Berlin Wall coming down two years after he did the whole "tear down this wall" speech and a full ten months after he left office.

The fall of the Soviet Union was fundamentally caused by the precipitous drop in oil prices in the late eighties. The Soviets had Assured Destruction many times over well before Reagan entered office - to imagine that somehow he caused them to spend so much that it broke their economy is simply wishful thinking, nothing more.

Adam said...

The most remarkable thing about that little myth is that the Cold War did not end until well after Reagan left office.

Except that Soviet troop withdrawals took place in December of 1988. Because they were broke and stretched far too thin.

So the argument is both that the USSR was about to collapse anyway AND it was just fine until after Reagan left office? Sure sounds to me like leftwingers just trying to deny the man credit for his accomplishments.

PeteKent said...

Palin Finis?

It is rank speculation at this point as to the impact all this will have on her political ambitions -- whatever they may be. The chattering classes are in an uproar, they cannot fathom it. The CV is that she has committed political suicide. Who knows? In the Age of Obama anything is possible.

I suspect she will not run 2012 but will from this moment on be an active and perhaps leading part of the Opposition to Obama. If she is successful at this, I think she can sit back and wait to be drafted as VEEP. It would be, I think, too great a stretch for her to be elected President after the savage treatment she received. She knows this too, I bet.

But there is no reason why she could not fulfill ably and even spectacularly the role that John McCain first cast her in. Once in the West Wing she becomes an heir apparent and our presumptive first woman president.

Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin!

petekent01 (on twitter)

persuter said...

"And on the prospect of mountains of debt, when you compare Reagan, Bush I and II with what Obama has planned (9.3T over the next ten years) you're making mountains out of molehills."

You're simply unreasonably comparing absolutes. 9.3 trillion dollars over the next ten years, as a percentage of current debt or as a percentage of GDP, is less than both Bush and Reagan.

persuter said...

"So the argument is both that the USSR was about to collapse anyway AND it was just fine until after Reagan left office?"

You are simply lying about what I said in an effort to make up a contradiction. I most certainly did not say the USSR was just fine - in fact, I said the complete opposite.

Honestly, this is the part that really gets me about Republicans. Can't you just have an honest discussion? Is that too hard for you? Do you have to lie? Is it some sort of rule?

"Except that Soviet troop withdrawals took place in December of 1988. Because they were broke and stretched far too thin."

Gee, really, they were broke? And your position is that the same country that funded the North Vietnamese while putting nuclear missiles in Cuba were just stretched a little too thin by Haiti and Grenada?

Reagan was obviously involved in the end of the Cold War, but pretending as if HE did it, as opposed to being one of numerous external factors, is ridiculous. If Iran falls in the next six months, it will be equally ridiculous to ascribe it to either Bush or Obama.

Adam said...

Persuter,

It's still a hell of a lot of money. And it's not being used to overthrow a superpower and it's not (so far, at least) doing much to turn the economy around. Money well spent is one thing. Frivolous spending is a whole different animal.

Adam said...

And your position is that the same country that funded the North Vietnamese while putting nuclear missiles in Cuba were just stretched a little too thin by Haiti and Grenada?

Actually yes. The Russians were in rough shape in the 1960's and 1970's - but it really got bad during the Reagan administration.

I agree it would be ludicrous to credit Bush or Obama for Iran falling, but Bush and Obama didn't make it a personal quest to see that happen in the way Reagan did on the USSR.

PeteKent said...

Obama is an odd duck. He won't even acknowledge that the West won the Cold War!

PS: Our enemy was dismantled. Mission accomplished!

Similarly, Persuter won’t acknowledge the central role that Reagan played in our victory. He lumps him in with "numerous external factors".

Can you imagine the end of the Soviet union under a President Obama?

I cannot!

Oh, and how did you all let a Palin thread get hijacked like this?

petekent01 (on twitter)

Dwight said...

Oh, and how did you all let a Palin thread get hijacked like this?

Yes, these comments definitely need some strong moderation to keep the thread derailing deadweight spammers out. Or they could just go away themselves.

Your choice, really.

Pragmatus said...

PeteKent…

If you are as bad at predicting the future as you are at predicting the past (i.e. your “information” about Reagan) then Obama will be the most successful and well-loved president in history.

And Adam, the difference between the Obama deficit and those of Bush and Reagan is that Obama’s spending has a clear purpose, i.e. righting the economy, while Bush and Reagan were only interested in shoveling dough back to the already-rich. Speaking of defense spending under Reagan, some of it was so profligate it defies description. Let’s look at taking both the battleships New Jersey and Missouri out of mothballs. What killed the battleship as a useful took was the advent of the nuclear aircraft carrier and the sophistication of missiles. No serious navy in the past forty years has relied on battleships, which might as well have big targets painted on them, because they are sitting ducks. Yet Reagan pissed away nearly a billion dollars bringing those two ships back into service, because he was incapable of understanding anything beyond what he once saw in a movie. They were quietly mothballed again a few years later, when the Gipper’s attention wandered once more and he forgot about them.

The Soviet Union would have collapsed even if Daffy Duck was sitting in the White House. Too bad it didn’t wait to fall apart until 2002 or so, then I would have been able to prove that assertion.

:o) :o) :o)

Mike in Maryland said...

G Chris said...
Remember McCain-Palin were up by 7 over Obama-Biden after the conventions. 'It was the economy...stupid'...and will be again in 2010 and 2012.

Wrong.

Most Americans, when presented with a new face, will give the benefit of the doubt to that new face. After a while, though, when they start to get to know that new face, depending on what that new face says or does, their opinion might change.

Bad impression (ala "I read them all")? Their benefit of the doubt is reduced or eliminated, and the 'favorability' factor starts to descend.

Bad impression (ala "What do you mean, Charlie?")? Their benefit of the doubt is reduced or eliminated, and the 'favorability' factor starts (or continues) to descend.

Bad impression (ala 'Russian jets flying over Alaska to attack the US', or 'I've got foreign experience, as Alaska's borders are with foreign countries')? Their benefit of the doubt is reduced or eliminated, and the 'favorability' factor starts (or continues) to descend.

Yes, the economy was part of it, but Palin rarely made any comments that would cause a significant portion, let alone a majority, of the electorate think that she had anything of value to add to the discussion, and in fact, almost everything she DID say about the economy was the opposite of what most thought should be done to fix it.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Mike in Maryland said...

Adam said...
Except that Reagan won the cold war.

In exactly the same way that Clement Attlee won WW II? Attlee was elected Prime Minister in July, 1945, and took office on 26 July 1945. The Japanese didn't surrender until August 15, 1945 (and that was only Hirohito's speech announcing that they WOULD surrender), with the actual signing of the surrender documents on September 2 aboard the U.S. battleship Missouri.

Or maybe you mean that HST won the war? After all, he was President when the Germans surrendered, and was still the President when the Japanese actually surrendered, thus ending World War II.

Ronnie Ray-Gun was ONE of many Presidents who won the Cold War.

It was Truman who helped found NATO. Do you REALLY think that NATO had no effect on the Soviets?

It was Truman who faced down the Soviets in West Berlin, instituting the Berlin Airlift.

It was Truman who helped defeat the Communists when they tried to take over Greece in the late 1940s.

It was Truman and Eisenhower who pushed for establishing an effective force to deliver weapons to the enemy (jets and rocketry).

Eisenhower DID give moral support to the Hungarians, and also intuited that military support would be available if/when they overthrew the government. When the Hungarians revolted, though, and the Soviet tanks rolled through Hungary, Eisenhower and the US military were no where to be seen. Not to mention that Eisenhower went golfing when Castro wanted to have a discussion with Eisenhower, thus fully driving Castro into the Soviet's arms. True, Castro did not follow protocol, just appearing in Washington with little notice, but Eisenhower made it a point to embarrass Castro by going golfing. After all, to many it appeared that going golfing was more important to Eisenhower than foreign relations.

It was Kennedy who faced down the Soviets in West Berlin (again) when the wall was put up, and in Cuba when the Soviets tried to put missiles on the island.

It was Kennedy who significantly upgraded the US missile capability to deliver weapons against the Soviets.

Although misguided, it was Johnson who let the Communists know that they would not be able to expand their territory without challenge. Even then, he pulled the same act in Czechoslovakia that Eisenhower pulled in Hungary 12 years prior - lots of words, but no actual support when the Czechs had their "Prague Spring" revolution.

Nixon and Ford didn't institute many (if any) changes to policy, except Nixon DID make the trip to China, and Ford stated that Poland was a free country, not under Communist rule.

Carter actually recognized that the US military needed upgrading (after eight years of GOOPer 'leadership'?), and started that process (look it up if you don't believe that is the truth).

Then along comes Ronnie Ray-Gun, and because of his "Mr. Gorbachov, tear down this wall" speech, all the GOOPers remember is that soon after he made that statement, the wall came down, and thus they 'credit' him with 'winning the Cold War'. What they don't realize, though, is that it took a full six months of work by the people in East Germany before the government started to topple, without the US doing anything except give moral support, before the wall started to come down.

Yeah, Ronnie Ray-Gun won the Cold War by his little lonesome, with no help at all from any of his predecessors.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

G Chris said...

Mike,
All I am trying to say is that people rarely vote for the VP. Americans tend to vote their pocketbooks. If that issue (the economy) is neutralized then other issues such as social, climate, healthcare, etc. start to emerge. The only explanation for Obama's recent fall in the polls is that the he now 'owns' this economy. If it turns around he is a landslide winner in 2012...if it doesn't the Democrats and Obama will have the same fate as the Republicans.

dsimon said...

Adam: It wasn't until Reagan forced them to spend money they didn't have on defense systems that the Russian Bear began to choke.

I've read (can't find the cite at the moment) that Soviet defense spending did not increase as a percentage of GDP in response to the Reagan arms buildup (which, as we know, was initiated by Carter).

The Soviet system was unsustainable. All we had to do was wait. And then we wouldn't have been saddled with the tremendous debt coming out of the Reagan years--and maybe H.W. Bush wouldn't have had to break his "no new taxes" pledge and won a second term.

The great betrayal of the Reagan years is that he sold the idea of something for nothing. Tax cuts were free. Huge defense buildups were free. (Does any of this sound familiar?) He left a fiscal mess for others to clean up.

And we're still hostage to the mindset that one can't really ask Americans if they're willing to pay for programs they say they want, or give up programs for the lower taxes they say they want. Reagan set up the dichotomy between "us" and "the government," when the inescapable truth is that we are our government. We just don't want to take responsibility for it anymore, and politicians are unwilling to ask us to do so. I think that's the real Reagan legacy.

Mike in Maryland said...

G Chris said...
All I am trying to say is that people rarely vote for the VP.

Rarely is NOT never.

And 2008 was one of those 'rare' times that the electorate actually took into consideration the person who was picked as VP.

1. They looked at Palin and many didn't like what they saw, and when they realized that she was McCain's choice, they started to have doubts about McCain's decision-making abilities.

2. They considered McCain's age and health considerations, and wondered if he would be able to sustain that health for four or more grueling years in the White House. Then they looked to see who would replace McCain if he had to leave office early, and they didn't like what they saw.

3. When McCain 'paused' his campaign because of the 'economy', their doubts about McCain's decision-making ability were reinforced, and they again looked to see who McCain had picked as the VP candidate, and they didn't like what they saw.

Did people take as close a look at GHW Bush when Ronnie Ray-Gun chose him? No.

Did people take a close look at Quayle when he was picked by GHW Bush? Not really, as it was presumed that Bush was in very good health and would be able to serve for four or eight years with no problem, so Quayle was not be a major factor in most people's decision in the 1988 election. A good argument can be made that Quayle lost GHW Bush a few million votes in the 1992 election (remember 'potatoe'?), but whether that made a difference in the Electoral College count is doubtful.

Did people take a close look at Al Gore when he was picked by Clinton? No, as most people presumed that Clinton was in very good health and would be able to serve for four or eight years with no problem, and besides, Gore wasn't a polarizing figure in politics, probably even in 1992 less so that Clinton.

Did people take a close look at Dick Cheney when he ws picked by little shrub? Not by most, and a lot of his views were already known - they didn't seem that far out of the mainstream, and besides, there was little doubt that little shrub's health would be a limiting factor in a little shrub's administration.

Then we get to Palin, and McCain's KNOWN health problems, and the rare event happens - people look at the VP candidate much, much more closely. And the more they saw, the less they liked.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

slasher14 said...

I'd like to point out that if Reagan really increased his military budgets in order to force the Soviets to match them and thus bankrupt themselves, he gave up four years before the Soviets finally did so. Reagan increased the military budget, starting in 1982 (1981's budget was mainly Carter's) by roughly 4%, 8%, 4% and 6%. In the last three years he was in office, he raised it ZERO PERCENT, and actually cut it one year.

So if Reagan's intent in raising the budget was to "win the Cold War," why did he give up? The Soviets were still committing aggresion in Afghanistan in 1986; the Nicaraguan situation was still boiling. WHY DID HE QUIT?

I think the answer is pretty obvious -- Reagan wasn't raising the budget for that reason at all, and those who want to preserve his legend are claiming this retroactively without any basis in fact. MUCH more logical reasons:

1) Reagan really believed that the United States military budget was too low, and raised it because he really thought it should be higher. Once it had been raised to a level he thought adequate, he stopped raising it.

2) Same initial motivation, but he had to stop raising it because his deficits had reached the point where they had to be addressed.

3) After having seen the country in recession the year before he took office and seeing it again fall into the worst recession since WWII for the first two years of his first term, Reagan used the military budget as a stimulus program, and after 1985, that was obviously no longer necessary.

Re point #3 above: without being judgmental about it, I would like to point out that Republicans think money spent on welfare, unemployment benefits, etc. is bad, while money spent on national defense is good. So if Reagan felt it necessary to run large deficits in order to pump money into the economy, it's quite logical that he'd use the military budget to do that.

As exhibit A for that theory, I would point out that George W. Bush increased military budgets in his first three years by 7%, 31%, and 13%, NOT INCLUDING the money spent on the Iraq or Afghanistan wars. What was HE doing -- trying to bankrupt the Soviet Union retroactively?

As far as the Soviet side of it is concerned, we don't really have accurate figures because so much of their military budget was secret, but best guesstimates are that they increased their budget by 4% to 7% EVERY YEAR of the 80s.
The reasons for that probably do include SOME reaction to Reagan's increases, but the Soviets were also fighting a war in Afghanistan and they were losing it, which no doubt led their military to demand more and more troops and equipment in order to turn the tide. This would explain why their increases didn't stop when Reagan's did.

Anyone who buys the idea that
"Reagan won the Cold War" is delusional.

slasher14 said...

In regard to those who argue that the economy is what did McCain in, let me point out some facts:

1. John Kerry carried states totalling 252 electoral votes. With the arguable exception of NH, it was expected by most observers that Obama would carry them all. This would leave him only 19 votes from the White House.

2. To get those 19 votes, he needed IA plus CO plus NM. Polls taken before either convention showed Obama ahead in all three -- comfortably in IA and NM. Robert Novak, who is nothing if not a conservative, noted a full month before the conventions that he thought McCain was in trouble in IA, NM, and CO, and that this meant he would lose.

3. Even after the Republican Convention gave McCain a lead in the national polls, IA and NM remained solidly for Obama. CO swung to McCain for awhile, then swung back.

4. In 2006, BEFORE the economy hit the wall or even showed signs of it, the Democrats kicked ass in the Congressional elections, which would seem to tell us that the electorate had, at the very least, begun to swing away from the Republicans for other reasons.

Please note that I haven't even discussed VA, FL, or any Bush 2004 state here except those three.

Therefore, nobody should have been surprised that Obama won, since he had everything going for him WITHOUT the economy. Indeed, the only reason there could have been much doubt was the fact of Obama's race, which made many distrust the polls (wrongly, as it turned out). The SIZE of his win -- the fact that he carried VA, NC, FL, IN, and OH -- may be ascribed to the economy to some extent, but Barack Obama was going to win anyhow.

Mike in Maryland said...

I did some research on the 1992 election. The Electoral College results were Clinton 370 EC votes and Bush 168 EC votes.

Then I looked at the individual states. If Quayle drove 1.5% of voters away from Bush (but 'G Chris' states people rarely vote for the VP), that means that any state that Clinton won by 3% or less would have gone to Bush (but remember, folks, 'G Chris' states people rarely vote for the VP, so according to 'G Chris', my exercise was not worthwhile).

After switching all the states that went to Clinton by less than 3% to the Bush column, the EC vote still reads Clinton 322 EC votes and Bush 216 votes. Clinton would STILL have won, and by a large margin.

The states that switched?
New Hampshire
New Jersey
Georgia
Ohio
Montana
Nevada

Since Clinton won Kentucky by 3.21%, let's throw all eight of Kentucky's EC votes to Bush. That makes it a bit closer, but still the EC vote would have been Clinton 314 and Bush 224.

So, 'G Chris', do you have a NEW argument?

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Matt said...

@Adam:
Persuter,

It's still a hell of a lot of money. And it's not being used to overthrow a superpower
...

Now, here you're serving as vector for a completely unsupportable Republican talking point. It's one thing to assert that "Reagan won the Cold War," a proposition which is simplistic, at best. It's quite another to claim that Reagan deliberately spent the Soviets into bankruptcy.
Reagan's fans hold to this historical myth with religious fervor, but there's no support at all for the contention that there was some such Grand Plan. Nothing in contemporaneous news accounts supports that theory. Nowhere did he, or any of his people, assert that we could spend the Soviets into submission; on the contrary, they insisted that we were weak, and that if we didn't spend like drunken sailors, we risked being overthrown ourselves. (Remember: this was the time when a TV mini-series, Amerika, explored the consequences of a Soviet takeover of the US. Despite any rational analysis, many Americans believed that quite possible.)
Even if you try to claim that Reagan craftily pursued this plan without publicly announcing it (and ignore the contempt that shows for democracy), there's nothing to support it. No memoirs from the Reagan Administration, none of his papers, nothing shows the Reaganites deliberately spending the Soviets into bankruptcy.
The Reagan Administration consistently thought the Soviets were much more powerful, economically, than they were. In the late 1980's, the CIA reported that East Germany had a higher GDP than West Germany.

Forget it. These guys had no Grand Plan to bankrupt the Soviet Union. The USSR did fall of its own weight. Some of what the US did (including supporting the Islamic rebels in Afghanistan--read Charlie Wilson's War to see who was the real force behind that effort, and the ensuing unintended consequences) doubtless contributed to that result, but you have no evidence that it wasn't going to happen anyway.

G Chris said...

Mike says: 'If Quayle drove 1.5% of voters away from Bush'.
So what gives you the authority to speculate this? Where is the poll that supports your contention? Just because you can dream up a scenario...doesn't make it so. 'What-if' scenarios are not reality. Mike, relax...enjoy the Democrat's run...it will not last if the economy fails to turn around. If the economy recovers you will extend your dominance until your party overreaches. Here are some real numbers to crunch...65 to 52 in less than 6 months (Rasmussen), or how about these 49% approval in Ohio ('As Ohio goes...) Quinnipiac University.

Tony C. said...

McCain didn't do HIMSELF any favors...


On the post-partisan angle, I rather liked the McCain of 2000, and very much disliked the McCain of 2007, who ably proved the centrist McCain of 2000 was just a gimmick, and the new McCain was a red-meat conservative war-mongering idiot.

Plus we got to learn about his cheating on his wife repeatedly, dumping her for a 20-something wealthy cheerleader, lying about it repeatedly, lying about the Keating scandal in which he should have been convicted like his cohorts but wiggled out through corrupt politics, and on, and on. And on.

McCain clicked with Palin on a personal level because he recognized in her another lying, do anything, say anything to get elected, egotistical, narcissistic, empathy-free and ruthlessly vengeful politician.

McCain's later attempt to exploit the innocuous acquaintance of Obama and William Ayres is a perfect example; McCain was perfectly happy to let Palin accuse Obama of "pallin' around with domestic terrorists" and say nothing as long as it was working.

His choice of Palin may have been a confirming act that helped us recognize McCain's true colors, but McCain himself did most of the heavy lifting.

cbob said...

"Obama is an odd duck. He won't even acknowledge that the West won the Cold War!"

PeteKent: It would be unwise, in my estimation, for the sitting U.S. President to talk about how we "won" the Cold War especially as he has issues he wants to work on with Russia. For good measure and to maintain our "bragging rights", do we want him to "remind" Great Britan, Mexico, Spain, Germany (twice), Japan and Italy about how we opened a can of whoopa** on them at some point in history?

Rhetoric is rhetoric and not policy. It is refreshing to have a President and a party who doesn't remind a potential nemisis with several thousand nuclear weapons that we beat them 20 years ago.

Then again, while we're at it, maybe he should ask for reparations? Worked well for the British and French after WW1.

PeteKent said...

cbob--

I think the only "reparations" Obama is interested in are reparations for slavery.

They actually had a dust up in Congress a week or so ago over including language in a bill apologizing for slavery that would have assured neutral construction on the issue and the pro-reparation Democrats had a fit.

it got very little media play because of the non-blacks in this country found out they'd be up in arms!

Don't worry they will figure it out soon enough!

petekent01 (on twitter)

markymark said...

PK, first of all I am not advocating slavery reparations, but why would you be so fervently against them? [I am honestly asking, give me some reasons why you are against them.]

Secondly, define the 'Cold War' for me. I find that a very difficult term given the state of the current state of the world. Can you really claim the Cold War was won? How and why was it won? I mean you seem very certain that Reagan won it. How? And what evidence is there that Reagan designed these strategies to bring about the fall of the Soviet Union/Empire?

Mike in Maryland said...

G Chris said...
Mike says: 'If Quayle drove 1.5% of voters away from Bush'.
So what gives you the authority to speculate this? Where is the poll that supports your contention
?

'G Chris'?

So what gives YOU the authority to speculate that voters RARELY look at the VP candidate?

The same authority that gives me the right to speculate that Quayle drove 1.5% of the voters away from Bush.

And here I was trying to show you that if you were wrong about the voters RARELY taking the VP candidate into consideration, and they did take that candidate into consideration, the result of the 1992 election would STILL have been effectively the same, with Clinton winning, and still winning by a comfortable margin.

So, if my speculation was so wrong, what figure should I have used? 2%? 3%? Anything higher would appear to me to getting out of the RARE territory that YOU stipulated. After all, a 3% switch would take a 5% lead (a considerable lead in most elections) to a negative 1% trailing. Most polls don't show such changes very often over a short period of time unless there are major external factors involved.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Mike in Maryland said...

Ronnie Ray-Gun won the Cold War according to some of our more delusional friends.

So that means we're guaranteed that there will be no more war with anyone, especially with the nation that has Moscow as it's capital?

Didn't we sign a peace treaty with the Brits after the American Revolution that stated that the US won the American Revolution? That ended all wars with the Brits, didn't it?

You mean our history books were wrong, and that Dolly Madison didn't have to flee the White House when British soldiers advanced on Washington, DC in 1814?

BTW - When and where did we sign a peace treaty with the Soviets after the Cold War? What were the provisions of that treaty? Did the US gain any territory, and/or did the Soviets have to pay any damages or reparations? Did the Soviets have to admit to certain conditions or provisions, or that they were the cause for the war? You know, the usual things in a peace treaty signed after a war is won by one party over another.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

G Chris said...

Mike,
'So what gives YOU the authority to speculate that voters RARELY look at the VP candidate?'
Fair enough...so I guess the best we can say is that there is no data (other than hypotheticals) to support either contention. I actually enjoyed your modeling and agree w/ your projections. I just don't agree that people vote for the no. 2. I will concede that it is just my, and others, opinion.

DermottTrellis said...

I absolutely based my 1984 vote on the Vice Presidential candidate. And according to Wikipedia, 10% of voters based their votes on the VP candidate in 1984, which provided a net gain of 0.8% for the Dems.

I proudly display a collection of 1984 campaign items that overwhelmingly advertise the Dem VP candidate, and barely mention the P candidate.

Mike in Maryland said...

G Chris said...
I just don't agree that people vote for the no. 2. I will concede that it is just my, and others, opinion.

You, 'G Chris' can speak for yourself. You can voice your opinions, and we can believe (or not believe) the validity of those opinions.

However, when you, implicitly or explicitly, speak for "and others", especially when there is no other qualifier (such as 'most people I know', etc.) you should be able to back that premise up.

Unless and until you do, I, for one, will take your comments as hyperbole, and treat your comments as such.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

G Chris said...

Mike,
You will see by my profile that I am new to this site. I have been impressed w/ the data driven arguments of the authors and bloggers. Even though I am probably not from the political persuasion of most authors/bloggers here, I do appreciate a good, clean argument. If you have been following my thread after this article you will see that my claim is that of James Carville; 'It is the economy...stupid.' When the economy is an issue, all other factors become subservient to it. I have never claimed that the VP spot is irrelevant. I might add that your arguments are not strengthened by shouting (caps), demeaning comments or insults. You have yet to present a substantive argument based on data other than your own speculation/models using arbitrary points that you selected. Although interesting it does not make the case, and is readily dismissed as biased data. Civil discourse is always more compelling. I am content to leave this 'debate', such as it is, and move on. I wish you well.

Mike in Maryland said...

G Chris said...
You will see by my profile that I am new to this site.

Gee, I could create a new profile tomorrow morning, claim that I'm a new poster, and no one would be any wiser, at the very least initially.

So a newly created profile is non-proof of anything.

The absolute and complete hiding of a profile is an entirely different matter.

I have never claimed that the VP spot is irrelevant.

Quote: "All I am trying to say is that people rarely vote for the VP."

And I showed you where you were not only somewhat incorrect, but you were WRONG.

I might add that your arguments are not strengthened by shouting (caps)

On the Internet, when a person is using all upper case letters on an occasional basis, for one or a few consecutive words, it is for EMPHASIS.

WHEN A PERSON IS USING ALL UPPER CASE LETTERS ON A MORE THAN OCCASIONAL BASIS, SUCH AS IN A COMPLETE SENTENCE, OR PARAGRAPH, OR THE ENTIRE POST, THEN IT IS CONSIDERED SHOUTING.

Notice the difference?

Please point out to me where I have shouted (other than the immediately preceding paragraph) on this thread, or any previous thread.

BTW - I normally don't shout when writing on the Internet, as I can't easily read the information when it is presented in all upper case letters. In fact, that is a trait that is shared by MANY people. You might find the information at http://www.mydesignprimer.com/fonts/capitals_usage_proper.shtml to be interesting and illustrating.

Yes, I could use bold for emphasis, but this is not a typesetting job, and it is much, much easier and less time consuming to use an occasional all upper case for emphasis than typing in the HTML for bolding

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

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PeteKent said...

Markymark,

Since the end of the Civil War and the enactment of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments to the Constitution, through the Civil Rights Legislative Wave that began in 1960s and continue unabated to this day, to the shoals of the Ricci case where it became apparent that where the Government cannot assure the advancement of the favored group (Blacks) it will then choose as second best the retardation of a the disfavored group (whites).

Don't you think we have paid enough "reparations" for slavery? I mean, after all, at what point is the American Black supposed to stand on his or her own two feet?

The Election of Barak Obama demonstrates that we have purged institutional racism from our nation and now it is time to turn the page to the Color Blind era our nation needs.

The notion of paying reparations is so far-fetched and ill-conceived, I might better ask you in what shape and form and how and to whom they might be paid, than my justifying my easy opposition!

Perhaps a majority of our citizens are descended from those who came here after the Civil War. Why tax them? Since everything the government does eventually has to be paid for, why saddle the blameless with the sins of the ancient, dead, and blameworthy? Now, of course, I see no reason not to confiscate the wealth of Al Gore since he is a prominent descendant of slave owners. Indeed Gore should immediately donate all his wealth to the NAACP as a atonement for the "blood" guilt he must no doubt feel, knowing that all his benefits in his life were derived from the misery of the enslaved Africans of our nation.

Then too, consider how much better the lot in life is of the American Black is compared to his African counterparts. One need only compare the circumstances of Barak Obama (himself technically not a descendent of slaves and thus not entitled to reparations or maybe even to be held up perhaps as an example of racial progress. Mmmmmm . . . .), to those of his African relatives. The impoverished step-grandmother and the half-brother George who is forced to live by his fists (at least until his book advance comes in!). Even the sad condition of Aunt Zietuni, Obama’s illegal alien Aunt whom he will be forced to deport and whom as millionaire failed to pay a whit of attention to, his compassion directed more generally than to his own kin. How noble.

In many ways the reparations are owed to those who are long dead, to those who struggled during slavery and in the 100 years thereafter until the nation collectively woke up and saw the need to enforce by legislation that which the state of our morality would not cause to occur naturally.

The sins against the long dead will not be assuaged by reparations and the living have little claim on them.

Still, nothing would please me more for this to become an issue.

Please, markymark, make your spirited defense of reparations and write your Congressman about it.

THAT WOULD BE VERY GOOD NEWS FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!

petekent01 (on twitter)

cargocult said...

one missing piece of information in this Palin help/hurt study is the absence of any baseline for comparison.

I don't know, do Vice Presidential candidates generally make no difference to slightly more than 50% of their party voters...and do they more or less split the difference among party members with an opinion (as Palin does here).

I think she's a junk public official and i hope the Republican Party can do better in the future but for all the ink about her, i'm not sure that these numbers reveal anything out of the ordinary for a second banana (well past ripe)

geek said...

The conventional wisdom is you hope a VP can help but do not want one that will hurt. Despite what the poll numbers say, I am aware of many from different parts of the country who stopped supporting Senator McCain because of Sarah Palin. The last time I saw that reaction was in President Bush's second election where Dan Quayle had increasingly become a liability.

I would have to go back to LBJ for a reasonable argument of a VP who helped the ticket but at that Texas was then a Democratic State.

Palin may appeal to some died in the wool Republicans but is viewed by the more moderate GOP members and voters as a bigger liability.

The thought that Palin could win a Republican nomination is almost impossible to believe.

Mike in Maryland said...

Very interesting article:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-palin-gop13-2009jul13,0,2642211.story

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

PeteKent said...

Mike,

The article shows what an iconoclast Palin is -- she is threatening to the establishment in general and not just the Democrats. The GOP insiders fear her just as much as the Democrat opposition does bc they know she has the power to take control and bring the party to heel should she choose.

Like you, the GOP establishment fears her power. Why else attack one of your own, your most popular candidate and best fund raiser? Because she threatens those who are entrenched. It has nothing to do with her qualifications or capabilities.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Milltycoon said...

markymark said...

"I am beginning to wonder if what we won't see is Palin running in 2012 and being an early front runner but then flaming out spectacularly, ...essentially for not being able to explain effectively why she 1 quit as Governor and 2 should be President. ...I am half expecting a kind of Russert/David Duke moment...Imagine Gov Romney 'Governor Palin, here is what I achieved in my last 18 months as Governor... Now why should voters choose someone who didn't even try to achieve in her last 18 months in office?'"

The flaw in your logic, Markymark, is in thinking that anything Governor Palin says actually matters the tiniest bit, which it doesn't. Romney will ask her that question, and Palin will give some typically ridiculous sprawling answer about her family and ethics and Liberal Manhattan dinner parties and our brave troops. And you'll point and say A-HA!!! THIS is the moment where the world has just seen Sarah Palin exposed as an ignorant rambling beauty queen hack.
But that never happens. The Conservatives on stage will sound as insane and extreme as Palin does. The bigger "sore thumb" will either be Paul or any Republican who is foolish enough not to try to run as an ultra-lunatic fringe doomsayer. The media will resort to their pre-determined two camps of "well, we already know she's a) great / b) disastrous". The Conservative voters who control most of the GOP primary season will listen to Palin's answer, think about myth #80 or so of Reagan's legacy, and rejoice at the outside-the-box thinking of their folksy little Moose-eating fighter who is ready to clean up Washington and create jobs like only a strong real American mother could.
So none of it matters, and if she makes it to the General, it REALLY doesn't matter, since 2012 will be a referendum on Obama and the Democrats anyway. The dye is cast on Palin like few politicians in recent decades. She may not gain or lose 100,000 supporters between now and when her 15 minutes are up.
The Conservative movement today is like Monopoly money--valid to itself in its own universe, but both worthless and unaccountible in the real world. You can buy Marvin Gardens with it, but not a loaf of bread.

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