It was another choppy day for health care reform. One step forward in the House, where the Blue Dogs appear to have been placated, and two steps back* in the Senate, where discussions have stalled out between Max Baucus and his committee-within-a-committee of six Very Special Senators.
There is a difference, of course, between these two negotiations: one is being held between Democrats and their fellow Democrats, and the other is being held between Democrats and Republicans. Almost every Democrat, Blue Dogs included, are going to be in a better position if health care passes than if it fails. Not necessarily a good position: as we've said repeatedly, there are some Blue Dogs who would probably be better off if Obama hadn't tried to tackle health care at all. But given that he has -- how dare he try and enact his campaign platform! -- they face a choice between getting blamed by only those people who don't like health care reform and getting blamed by everyone.
The Senate Republicans, on the other hand: With the retirements of George Voinovich, Judd Gregg and Mel Martinez, and the party-switch of Arlen Specter, there are only two Republican Senators running for re-election this cycle in states won by Barack Obama. One of them is Richard Burr of North Carolina -- a state where Obama won by a just fraction of a point and is now fairly unpopular. The other is Chuck Grassley of Iowa, who is one of Baucus's Special Six --- but Iowans approve his performance by a 2:1 margin and he is facing only token opposition. Neither of these guys are exactly risking getting booted out of office if they don't vote for health care.
Three other such Republicans will face re-election in 2012: first, John Ensign of Nevada, who is probably doomed no matter what he does, and Dick Lugar of Indiana, who is probably safe no matter what he does. Then there's Olympia Snowe of Maine, who along with her colleague Susan Collins, is the one place where Obama might have a little leverage: he won their state, after all, by 18 points, and although Snowe and Collins are quite popular, they are popular precisely because they will buck their party from time to time. But they really are probably the sole exceptions: in every other marginal case, the damage that the failure of health care would do to Democrats' messaging and morale probably outweighs any potential for backlash.
So what was Baucus hoping to achieve by negotiating with people who have an incentive to see the process fail? There are two basic cases here. Either the Democrats can muster all 60 votes on their own, and Grassley's vote would be the icing on top of Obama's victory cake and would only serve to improve the Democrats' electoral prospects in 2010 and 2012. Or they can't, in which case Grassley has it within his power to cause the Democrats a huge, potentially back-breaking headache. Either way, it's hard to see what Grassley has to gain by striking a deal. If the Democrats only had 58 senators, or 59, then there would be more downside to Republicans: the Dems' 2010 platform would instantly become -- Let's elect a few more Democrats to stop these Republican obstructionists! That's not a bad message. But since the Democrats do have 60, it will be hard for them to creditably blame Republicans for health care's failure.
There are two other reasons why someone like Grassley might be amenable to a compromise. One is if he simply thinks that health care reform is The Right Thing to Do. This is not intended (entirely) sarcastically: of the 100 Senators on the Hill, you can make a better case for Grassley than most as someone who is occasionally willing to vote out of something other than electoral expediency. Still, Grassley is at heart pretty darn conservative; it's unlikely that he's going to bed dreaming of gumdrops and the public option.
The other incentive is more perverse: if he thinks that Democrats can get 60 votes on their own, but that by inserting himself in the negotiations, he can ensure that a weaker bill is passed. Indeed, that would be a pretty good reason for Chuck Grassley to compromise. But it would be a pretty lousy one for Democrats to do so.
Or maybe it is the case that Democrats would be better off in the long run passing a weaker bill that gets some Republican support than a stronger one that doesn't. But if so, what interest do the Republicans have in assisting them with that? From a partywide perspective, this is pretty much a zero-sum game. It might not be so for individual senators -- you might have some individual actors who had strong incentives to compromise, even if this were against the overall best interests of their party. But as we've mentioned, there are almost no Republican senators who will be materially worse off if health care fails.
This is not exactly to suggest that Grassley is bargaining in bad faith. But he has almost no reason to compromise on any points of substance. At best, he's probably somewhat indifferent between a weak health care bill passing and the whole enterprise failing apart; that's a very dangerous person to be negotiating with. The same thing certainly goes for Mike Enzi, who is more conservative than Grassley and hails from a much redder state. Olympia Snowe is different: she is a de facto independent in a very blue state, who might even have some hopes of being on a Presidential ticket someday. (It will never happen, but would you really want to wager a lot of money betting against Snowe-Bloomberg, or Petraeus-Snowe, running on an independent platform?)
Instead of Grassley and Enzi, Baucus should be sitting in a room with Ben Nelson and Mary Landireu -- and maybe Olympia Snowe. Those are the swing votes -- the pressure points -- the people with whom there's actually something to be neogtiated. If Grassley wants to come in and snack on beef jerky and spitball a few ideas, then sure -- door's always open. But I don't know what good he's doing the Democrats by being given so leverage over the process.
___
* Or maybe two steps forward and one back. The compromise bill that had been floated earlier this week was a poor one -- weak enough that one can actually imagine Enzi and Grassley having signed on to it. I don't think they were in a position to make many more demands -- the bill was already on the precipice of triggering a minor rebellion within the Democratic caucus. If either Baucus/Bingman/Conrad balked after their trial balloon had burst, and reneged on previous compromises, or Grassley/Enzi got greedy and made yet more demands, the negotiations could easily have collapsed. The point is, these neogitations were not particularly likely to succeed in the first place, nor are they particularly essential to health care's success. Blame Baucus if you like -- but blame him for getting into the wrong negotation with the wrong people, and not for how they may have ended.
7.30.2009
The Only Winning Move is Not To Play
by Nate Silver @ 7:15 AM...see also bipartisanship, game theory, health care, senate republicans
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76 comments
Why do the Democrats even need to worry about 60 votes in the Senate? Didn't they pass a rule change earlier allowing the Reconciliation process to be used for any Healthcare Reform bill after October? This would allow the bill to only need a bare majority of 51 votes to pass and therefore incentivize the few moderate Republicans to negotiate in good faith before they are simply steamrolled.
I think, and maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part, that Grassley legitimately would like to see some form of health care to pass and is trying to "do the right thing". Perhaps that is just hoping too much as an Iowan, because he is one of my Senators, but he has always seemed to be an honest individual who hopes to do what's best for his country. As a Democrat I certainly disagree with most of his ideas for reforming health care, and would probably prefer he were not a major player in the negotations because of this, but I do not think he is acting in bad-fath with purely political/electoral motives.
I am not overly worried about the Senate yet. My own view is that once a bill goes through the House, the Senate won't be in a position to stop it really. I think any Democrat must realize the threat to the party if healthcare fails. I think there is a possibility of Baucus putting the GOP in the Senate in a position were he can say 'look I tried to get a compromise, but they didn't want to play ball.' and in the end pass a tougher bill than the compromise would have been.
There is one big difference between now and 1993-4, and that is 1993-4 has already happened, and Dems understand the threat.
Grassley was on NPR's Morning Edition yesterday and said, essentially, that he's compromising because getting something passed is the Right Thing.
Of course, it's another argument whether what any politician says reflects his actual motivations and views.
Yes, I do blame Baucus and Conrad. I hope their negotiated settlement with Grassley and Snowe gets negotiated into the trash can where it belongs when it comes time for reconciliation.
There is a downside for Republicans in blocking reform. If a good bill doesn't happen the public will perceive it as first a failure of partisanship and the middle will blame the smaller proven incompetents on the right for their beligerent obstruction much more than the left for any kind of overreach. Furthermore, the other five sixths of the economy has to be worried this will turn into another giveaway to the healthcare industry. Expanding coverage without controlling costs (public option) will be seen as a giveaway by those who pay the bills.
I'm no statistician Nate, but I'd estimate you spell Landrieu wrong approximately 93% of the time.
Although any bill that passes, should one pass, will be a ludicrously watered-down compromise, to the point of achieving almost nothing, I am still glad of what is happening.
Just forcing a conversation has been progress of a sort.
Compare the situation to 1993-4. It's still a joke, but the joke is a bit less offensive this time around.
To be honest I doubt the dems could hold 60 votes for anything with guys like Ben Nelson in the caucus.
He has even hinted he may not vote for Sotomajor. If this guy can`t support his president on a suprme court nominee he should be kicked to the curb.
The problem is there are to many democrats who have to cater to a conservative constituancy and for all intents are republicans who like calling themselves democrats and being in the majority.
Whatever health bill we get will be watered down and in the long run not worth much. Bush was a terrible president but he could steamroll congress into doing his bidding.
Congress does not fear Obama and he needs to start vetoing legislation to get their attention.
Nate:
It was another choppy day for health care reform. One step forward in the House, where the Blue Dogs appear to have been placated...
Rahmbo managed to convince a handful of the Blue Dog delegation in one committee to allow an Obamacare bill to be marked up in exchange for delaying a floor vote until the members get an earful from their constituents during the Summer recess. The entire blue dog caucus was not even consulted and did not approve of this maneuver.
Any deal that allows the voters a longer say in the process is two steps back for Obamacare. The hundreds of thousands of Tea Party protesters who demonstrated on Tax Day and again on Independence Day plan to be en masse at every event their Blue Dogs hold during the break. Ask Claire McCaskill how much fun that can be.
Nice post, add to the mix that Grassley is an unpredictable snake who regularly explodes over tiny stuff in bills - kinda like your average uneducated modern repub.
In other news, Rasmussen gets owned: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/the-rasmussen-presidential-approval-index-is-this-newer-measurement-worth-anything.php
Joel, since we only need 50 votes to pass a bill, and 60 votes against a filibuster, Dems like Ben Nelson could say they didn't support the bill but wouldn't support the filibuster.
You'd think the Dem leadership could get those Centrists to do that....
BDP,
Lol at the teabagger comment, oh wait, you weren't joking! Actually I am very positive that the Blue Dogs have made a step towards an agreement. I think your assertion that the American public are against the current direction of healthcare reform is just plain wrong. Sure Teabaggers, and kneejerk conservatives of whatever stripe, are going to be against it. But I think many moderates are in support of decent healthcare reform, and are NOT against a public option.
I think its also an opportunity for the netroots movement to get into the ears of Democratic congressmen and women and of there US senators. And personally I think the netroots have proved themselves capable of running good political pressure movements, rather than kneejerk, frustrated losers street parties.
The obvious solution is to get more money behind healthcare reform. These Senators who are somewhat moderate and safe electorally have little non-financial reasons to vote either way and are getting way more support from anti-reform interests than pro-reform ones; the most pressing ideology they generally share is concern about the deficit. Make a bill with a public plan that has an individual mandate but no employer mandate and still doesn't tax health benefits, and allow people not insured by their employer to deduct health insurance premiums.
Then watch the entirety of business sans the health industry line up behind a bill that will drastically lower their healthcare costs and subsidize new health benefits for less wealthy employees. That's a constituency that Grassley et al will listen to, and if the business community is generally happy it'll be OK to pass a bill that's going to only hurt insurers and drug companies.
That's assuming this is even a problem; in reality, I think we're going to get a neutered compromise bill in the Senate and a strong bill in the House. As with the stimulus, the substance of the conference bill will come from the House with some ultimately irrelevant frills grabbed from the Senate bill. There won't be support for a filibuster after a week of news of success of the health bill in Congress -- it'll be a "you voted for it before you voted against it" moment for anyone who switches -- and it will easily get 50 votes.
Nate - did your entire MSNBC segment have to be Ds & Fs for the president? You really believe he gets credit for absolutely nothing? You fall into the same trap of every tv-head... it's way cooler to trash the effort than to point out things that are working.
Good work.
OMG!!!! NATE'S GOING BALD!!!
Nate was just on MSNBC and OMG!!
Nate, you got some cash and you live in a major citi, get someone to wrangle your follicles!!!!
And as for the gel -- I think that went out 10 years ago, after Cameron Diaz's scene in "Something about Mary".
Yeah, what CMS said.
I was so overwhelmed by Nate's monstrous hair (think Pizza da Hut from "Space Balls") I didn't pay attention to what he said.
Nate, you defeatist.
So this is what happens when you join the MSN.
Next you'll be hosting salons with WaPo's Ceci Connerly for lobbyist.
Well Done.
cms - what exactly would you like Nate to give him credit for?
He hasn't closed Guantanamo, hasn't got out of Iraq, he's done nothing on equal marriage or gay rights generally, he's obstructed torture investigations, his DoJ is bringing in a system of show trials and indefinite internment without charge, he's been played by Goldman and AIG at massive expense to the taxpayer, and he's now trying to compromise the reputation of his own TARP watchdog.
The best you can credit him with is a good Supreme Court pick, a very compromised cap and trade bill making some progress, and I suppose, at a stretch, showing loyalty when a Harvard chum got arrested. Oh yeah and he chose a dog.
Man you guys really are clueless you know that
Take my state of Virginia for eaxmple
Mark Warner is on record against single payer public option only
The reps from 02 and 05 barely won and both are against most Democratic led plans
Glenn Nye is a lead blue dog
Tom Perriello also has serious reservations about many of the democratic proposed ideas
Gerry Connolly from 11 is against outrageous tax increases on top earners
Thats the thing with hyperpartisans they fail to see the world in shades of gray. Sound familir its the same problem Bush and the R partisans had earlier. Seeing the world in black and white is dangerous if you are lonony liberal or if you are right wing nut job.
If something is being attacked by the fringe wing of a party its much better for the country. Henry Waxman is an idiot and can't see the forest through the trees.
Another idiot
"Liberals countered that the compromise would help private insurers compete against the public plan, questioning how Ross could demand $100 billion in other savings while pushing for a provision that might prove costly. "I think this completely cripples the public option," said Rep. Raul M. Grijalva (D-Ariz.), co-chairman of the Progressive Caucus."
Nice to show the true colors in all of this. If liberals had there way there would be no other options besides the public option.
Can anyone seriously argue why saving $100 billion is a bad thing. I mean seriously.
This is the kind of crap that royally ticks me off. This is exactly why I can't stand liberals/progressives
P.S. latest poll numbers
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124890178435291341.html
Mr. Obama's health plan was a good or bad idea. In the new poll, conducted July 24-27, 42% called it a bad idea while 36% said it was a good idea.
Among those with private insurance, the proportion calling the plan a bad idea rose to 47% from 37%.
In the Journal poll, only two in 10 people said the quality of their own care would improve under the Obama plan; just 15% of those with private insurance thought it would. Twice as many overall, and three times as many with private coverage, predicted their own care would get worse.
"You can't pass a substantial health reform unless privately insured people see there's a benefit for them," said Bill McInturff, a Republican pollster who conducts the poll with Democrat Peter D. Hart.
Those are some ugly numbers folks
My advice still stands you have to show how the average American will benefit. Take a family of four average income and how much they pay in health insurnace via a work plan per year (thats how the vast majority gets health insurance). Then show how much they will save based on a bill passing. If you can't articulate that concept this thing doesn't desrve to passs
Sorry, I meant the independence of his TARP watchdog, not its reputation. Though undermining its credibility on numbers does that too.
Boing --
Exactly!!
He has yet to return my calls about by broken toaster!!
We should IMPEACH him!!
Kuchinich/Nader '12!!!!!!!!
Yes, that's certainly a telling riposte.
Get back to me when you think of some stuff Nate should have gone on TV to give him credit for.
The discussion on MSNBC was about health care. We are closer than ever to getting reform passed, and Obama -- not to mention some of the stand-up Dems like Pelosi and Brown -- deserve better than Fs for that.
Yeah, sorry, you're right, it's going brilliantly.
Boing -- if you can't handle following the chaotic legislative process, than don't watch it. When you wake up in October, we'll have a signed bill.
BOMB BAUCUSFEST!
Geez, I just remembered:
Even Bill freak'n Maher gave Obama a A- grade when he appeared on Monday's edition of The Situation Room
MAHER: I would give him, at this point, an A-minus, B-plus. I mean, it's only been six months. Obviously, he inherited a huge mess, but it looks like the economy is, you know, fingers crossed, turning around to a degree. It certainly could have been a lot worse. We were facing a sort of a meltdown. It could have gone the other way. I don't think we're out of the woods.
Boing, go back to your bong, you burnt out hippie.
I like the War Games reference Nate. For those who were too young or not yet around in the early 80s:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086567/quotes
cms is exactly right.
Health Care was first put on the agenda in 1912 by Teddy Roosevelt.
And 96 years no body had even come close. Not FDR, Not Truman, Not JFK, Not even LBJ, and all these backseat burnt out hippies can do whine like the spoiled fucked up Boomers they are.
Go back to Woodstock, with Norm Colemen, you yuppie sell outs.
Harry Reid needs to grow a spine. He's got a caucus of 60, and he's letting Republicans and virtual Republicans set the agenda and determine the narrative.
Step one: Find 10 or 20 liberal Senators who will publicly declare that a strong public option is non-negotiable, and they're prepared to kill a bill that doesn't include one and try again next year. (The Progressive Caucus in the House is trying to organize in this way). That pushback brings the negotiations to "the center of the Democrats", not "the 60th Senator".
Step two: Identify 50-some Senators -- not 60 -- who will vote for an actual decent bill.
Step three: Write the actual decent bill. Baucus, Snowe, and the like can weigh in, but they don't run the show. (Yes, I understand that bills have to come out of committee. But everyone knows that they can be arbitrarily re-written at the level of the full Senate. And this is too big to let Baucus hold it hostage).
Step four: Dare the Nelson/Landrieu/Snowe types to actually filibuster the thing. If they do, keep raising the pressure until it gets an up-or-down vote. Put Obama on a PR blitz if necessary, and make it clear that the entire blame rests on those "Democrats" who won't even allow the plan to come to a vote.
"if you can't handle following the chaotic legislative process, than don't watch it."
- You're right, I do find the sight of a great democracy in which a bunch of insurance firms have blatantly bought the government quite distressing. Not sure equanimity at the prospect is all that much to be proud of.
Jenny - is it only ageing hippies and drug addicts who can be expected to balk at governments enacting deeply authoritarian judicial changes and protecting torturers?
Boing-
What are you doing now -- listening to your Kucinich tapes as you take another hit, before logging on to ETrade.
Careless, druged-out, self-absorbed Boomers like you and the Clintons make me sick.
Go back to the student union, and see if you can find some free love. Maybe cradle-robber Kuchinich can fix you up with one of his wife's hippie friends. Lord knows you pathetic vanity freaks won't date someone your own age.
A sound public option will, I suspect, if hammered through during reconciliation, gain enough public support when implements to overcome republican opposition. Once passed it would be very, very hard to get rid of.
Jenny - your guess is wrong, but who cares, it's all just rhetoric from your end.
One more time though - is it only the social types you describe who are concerned about deeply authoritarian policies? Are Glen Greenwald and Ken Silverstein and even Andrew Sullivan of that type?
Do you actually have any principles, or is politics to you like supporting a sports team?
Lawerence-
You're right on target.
Not only that, as Ted Kennedy said in the recent cover story in Newsweek, SCHIP was okay, but not great when it was first enacted, but it has been repeatedly amended and consistently improved.
Here's an interesting history on how Kennedy was originally betrayed by Clinton (shocking!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Children's_Health_Insurance_Program
Man you guys still aren't getting it. A public option will never pass. Thats how healthcare would be killed
Hot off the press from Mark Warner a moderate commonsense democratic senator
This is the kind of person that I am proud to have representing me. This is what I and the majority of Americans support
"As our health care debate continues, I'm reminded that Virginians hired me last fall to help change the way things are done in Washington and to make sure the federal government is more responsible with taxpayer dollars, even in times of crisis.
Reforming our health care system is essential to ensuring a prosperous future and it cannot wait. But I am concerned that far too little attention is being paid to containing the cost of any potential reform plan.
The status quo is not sustainable. But we cannot spend away our future to achieve the health reform we need.
That's why I joined eight fellow freshman Senators last week in a letter to Senator Max Baucus, chairman of the Finance Committee. In our letter, we commend the chairman's efforts to achieve bipartisan support for health care reform legislation.
But we also make a critical request: We must renew our focus on containing costs - before it's too late.
As recently-elected members of the Senate, we all know first-hand that Americans desire health care reform.
We also know that the United States can't afford the consequences of inaction. We're already spending 17 percent of our GDP on health care - more than any other industrialized country - and that number will only go up if Congress does not act.
Our business community can't afford the status quo, either. They are already at a serious disadvantage as they compete with firms around the globe because our businesses spend so much more than foreign competitors on skyrocketing health care costs.
And our government cannot afford to miss this window of opportunity because growth in healthcare costs threatens to bankrupt the government. We absolutely must get a handle on this challenge.
I'm working with my colleagues to make sure this discussion remains focused on cost reduction as well as expanded coverage. Our letter is just a small part of our continuing effort to bring a sustainable, sensible approach to health reform."
Amen preach it 100% total agreement and for those of you not blinded by total partisan blinders you can see this is what I have been saying all along.
nova_middle_man said...
Man you guys really are clueless you know that
Take my state of Virginia for eaxmple
Mark Warner is on record against single payer public option only
WTF? So, even Obama said he wasn't looking for this from a bill? That is entirely different than a public option. Then your second post ... well you are back to your same old pattern of reading in something that just isn't there.
Big friggin' surprise Mr. Misinformation.
Isn't it 50 votes to pass; 60 to filibuster? If the Dem's get 55 votes on a great bill, and the GOP/Nelson/etc filibuster, the GOP will look even more terrible.
And what we're looking for is "optional government health insurance", by the way.
I really thought you were going somewhere with the War Games reference, and then never did.
The real conundrum here for the Dems is highlighted by the Stimulus bill - it's not clear that passing a "bad" bill is just as deadly as not being able to pass any bill.
I think the reason for bipartisanship is to be able to spread out the blame for any parts of the bill that don't turn out right. This may also be a pipe dream (the Dems will get the most blame no matter what) but it will still be far worse if the bill was a Democrat-only thing than if it had a least some credible "national consensus" behind it.
Also, I believe the reconciliation route (bypassing the filibuster) requires strict revenue neutral rules in order to be used. This could make it even harder to get to good bill do to whatever bookkeeping rules are used - thus the need for 60 votes.
There is a way to get it past the filibuster, the same way that the F-22 vote was relatively close and took so many years and a united Whitehouse and Pentagon dumbeat to close the deal. Talk the language that individual GOP Senators know oh so well, the grease that makes the Senate wheels turn, Porkinese.
Oh sure it'll be expensive as hell because you are up against Health Insurance lobby money. But earmark some jobs into Iowa or Maine or something, that's worth serious votes in their states. The filibuster collapses and a fair number of Blue Dogs and GOP get to put on their show vote of 'No'.
*sigh*
Dwight,
Was I talking to you no.
I'm talking to the commenters. I am giving reality to the liberal/progressive groupthink festering on this website.
I am explaining why this "compromise" is needed for healthcare to get passed.
If that was it believe me I wanted waste my time on this site
Personally I feel it is best for the country. Thats why I stay here.
P.S.
I think that sums up what I have been doing on this particular issue.
Like I said before it is getting fatiguing we need some new topics.
Can someone please tell me what the hell is going on?
Obama is battling his TARP overseer because he's doing his job too well and asking too many questions...
Visa posts 73% increase in profits while unemployment is still going up...
The health care process is left to congress, who can't seem to figure out what the hell they're doing...
All the while, what is Obama doing? I campaigned HARD for this guy. His transparency is a joke, he isn't showing real leadership on the health care issue, unemployment is soaring while banks and Credit companies are posting record profits. I'll give it to him in Iraq and Afghanistan, in some senses, but the Iraqi government is starting to look more and more like another Soviet-Baathist military regime and the death tolls in Afghanistan keep rising.
PLeeeeeeeeeeeeease somebody talk me off this ledge, I think I'm going to puke.
nova_middle_man said...
Dwight,
Was I talking to you no.
It doesn't matter if you weren't talking to me or not. What you posted is still wacked and your reading comprehension is still brutal.
"...would you really want to wager a lot of money betting against Snowe-Bloomberg, or Petraeus-Snowe, running on an independent platform?"
Uh, yeah! I'd be willing to bet whatever amount of money you were willing to lose on that one. Maybe the question should be, would you really want to wager a lot of money on the success of such a ticket? Come on Nate, I thought you were a gambler. Do you really think that type of ticket would have more than a snowball's chance in hell of election?
Jenny and Boing -
I basically agree with both of you.
Boing, all of your complaints are valid.
Jenny, your characterization of boomers is highly accurate in many cases (whether or not it applies to Boing), and it is true that constantly wailing on the only people who stood between us and McCain/Palin and denying them any credit whatsoever is tiresome.
However, both of you, please stop picking on Kucinich!
Kucinich is very much one of the good guys. He doesn't spoil races and help conservative creeps win in liberal districts. He runs as a Democrat and wins. He's a progressive voice who gets himself elected.
He doesn't run around making authoritarian homophobic comments about "family values", and yet he is apparently in a monogamous heterosexual relationship - exactly the opposite of some Republicans I can think of. His adult wife's age is nobody's business. Love is not agist.
You don't have to agree with every single word the guy says, but he's no "both parties are the same" spoiler.
Harold-
Kucinich is a fraud.
Let me say it again: the little flying saucer smurf is a wack job
You wanna know why?
He was life long Anti-Choice until he decided to run for president in 2004 and he flipped.
The midget had a 95% postitive rating from the National Right to Life Committee
http://tinyurl.com/l68wzw
read it an weep!! I dare you to read it!!
A full-moon freak who wants to control MY FUCKING body is not a liberal. PERIOD.
Fuck kuicich - he's an cultist-abortion-nut and an flip-flopping opportunist.
God damn, Hippies!!! Do your research.
I think Obama's lack of executive experience is showing.
He is far, far too passive.
He is really only comfortable campaigning. Look what he was doing yesterday. He was back out doing campaign-style events. Axelrod needs to go. He needs an insider running his schedule, not a campaign operative from Chicago.
He should be knocking heads on the Hill right now, not campaigning. He's making it worse.
Thune/Dell, 2012
Dwight,
Seriously I give up another one to add to the crazy list.
Walker-
John Thune (R-S.D.) is a closeted gay. He's just like Charlie Crist.
Now that doesn't bother me in the least. I don't care that he's a self-hating gay. But make no mistake if he runs, his charade will be blown (no pun intended).
Really, you think the party of Sarah Palin will vote a handsome version of Larry Craig? I don't think so.
nova_middle_man said...
Dwight,
Seriously I give up another one to add to the crazy list.
Hope you've got lots of room for that list. Including the other people in this thread that are trying to get through your thick head just how inept you are at reading and reasoning.
Plus the people that have concluded you are a "concern troll". Although I tend to default to chalking up such things to garden variety incompetence and/or flaky personalities, I suppose such things do exist.
Honey, it's you.
Jenny, that's not cool.
Unless you have unrefutable proof of something like that you shouldn't publish it.
How would you like people saying false things about you?
With ObamaCare so deeply unpopular, how can it be politically risky to vote against it?
Obama has pissed off millions of docs (and cops); he is exposing himself more and more as a doctrinaire liberal, with a decided affinity for socialist policy prescriptions; the unpopularity of his policies is now dragging down his personal popularity and that of his party.
In its coverage of the dismal (for BHO) WSJ/NBC poll, MSNBC points out that ObamaCare is now as unpopular as failed HillaryCare.
He never campaigned on this scandalously expensive takeover of healthcare in America. Governing is much more demanding than campaigning.
Obama is falling hard and fast.
He is failing.
Rush is smiling!
petekent01 (on twitter)
Walker -
What a joke.
The GOP spreads shit every fucking day.
Case in point:
Hillary killed Vince Foster.
Obama was born in Kenya.
Obama is a muslim.
etc. etc. etc.
I would say blow it out your ass, but that handsome gay man (and he is dreamy) John Thune would climax.
All & Sundry…
Here is the discussion yesterday on Charlie Rose. Howard Dean enunciates the situation with startling clarity, and Bill Frist, although he disagrees with certain points, does not do the typical Republican no-no-no-no-no-no-no, Obama-fail Obama-fail Obama-fail, let’s-let-the-market-do-it let’s-let-the-market-do-it let’s-let-the-market-do-it. When Dean correctly nails the Republicans for trying to obscure the issue with their “government takeover of healthcare” claptrap Frist interrupts to say “you don’t hear that from me.”
So anyone interested in reasoned analysis from both the liberal and conservative points of view, check it out.
Anyone interested in the ninny-dipwad-crybaby-dinosaur point of view, just read Pete Kent’s posts. Any post by Pete Kent.
Greetings Professor Silver. Would you like to play a game? How about a nice game of thermo-nuclear war?
Sad, Jenny, and gross. I sincerely have a hard time that you truly are a female. Only a male could be that vile.
You can disagree vigorously on political positions but it is damaging to our nation to attack people on a personal level, especially if its false and slanderous.
And just because there are Republicans and those on the right who say false and hurtful and baseless things about Obama, Pelosi, Reid, etc. does not make it right to do so against prominent Republican politicians.
Walker-
Only a male could be that vile.
That's sexist. Did I call you a woman or a pussy?
Btw., did you think Sarah Palin was a man when she went around red baiting about socialism and calling Obama a terrorist?
Now THAT was vile.
You guys are a joke. Like that retard Palin, you can dish it out, but you can't take it.
This could become the "at least we tried" moment for a bipartisan health bill, before moving on to more practical alternatives. That could even be seen as a clever move. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that Baucus is acting in good faith toward health care reform - it's hard to see how a lot of his actions fit with that goal.
@pragmatus
I was surprised that Frist actually put forth a cogent rebuttal. He is a doctor, however. I don't actually think his scenario will play out like he envisions. I agree with the guest on The Colbert Report last night. Compromise is fine in most situations but if we don't swing for the fence on this bill it's the same as doing nothing. Big insurance wins again.
Harold -
I've not said a word against Kucinich. I follow US politics closely but I don't know much about him except the Cheney episode.
Jenny - you're a child in the playground.
I came down off the ledge. Good old logic and reasoning always comes through.
@nova_middle_man
"Like I said before it is getting fatiguing we need some new topics."
How about how every one of these threads is sprinkled with numerous references by liberals to Obama and the Democrats' perennial timorousness in the face of Republican opposition that we will charitably describe as currently quantitatively and qualitatively...underwhelming...and how that phenomenon relates to criticisms of the Democrats' approach to foreign policy? Or would that be thread jacking and/or trolling?
I agree with those who point out that reconciliation is always in the background.
That's the real club to get Enzi and Grassley to negotiate. No one wants to go as far as to use reconciliation, and it probably won't come to that, but the fact that the leaderships CAN pull it out and wave it around (or even use it) if they want to gives them some more leverage here.
Jenny said...
Kuchinich/Nader '12!!!!!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just the obvious, first "we" need more pundits, how did Lincoln and FDR get by w/out listening to the wisdom of today's pundits!
Second, Kucinich is a nut! Jenny you do realize munchkin Kucinich was responsible for Cleveland going belly-up ie bankrupt! He's occasionally entertaining, but totally irrelevant.
Next, speaking as an independent, one of the best things the Dems have in their favor is extreme right wing radio which covers, yes Virginia, all of conservative radio ie every time limbo, hannity, beck, malkin, coultergeist, billo, savage, ingraham open their mouths they lose more independent votes, much like every time Teresa Heinz Kerry opened her mouth she lost votes for her hubby, I digress.
so yea, every time limbaugh, beck, malkin, dobbs open their mouths I smile :))) yea, that's the ticket, that's the way out of the wilderness ie having your extreme racists, sorry losers, sour grape, self-loathing, totally out of touch w/reality loons speak for the Republican party 24/7
I repeat, how did the Dems get soooo damn lucky !!!
And there will be no filibuster on the health care bill ie any Rep that would vote to filibuster would give the Dems an opening to blame them for its failure, regardless if any Dems voted for the filibuster also.
This is political reality !!!
and did I mention Kucinich is a nut! but, but, but, on a side note, my oldest nephew, who lives on Long Island, voted for Kucinich in the NY primary last year. He didn't like Hillary or Obama lol. So yea, he's more of a liberal than I am.
So recapping, Kucinich is a nut who represents a district almost as liberal as the district in LA that finally got rid of William Jefferson ie he's totally safe, so he can say anything he wants and still get re-elected unless he puts 90k in his freezer! :)
Did I mention I love extreme conservative evangelical right wing nut radio? Ohhhhhhh Yeaaaaaaa !!!
carry on ...
p.s. we need more pundits!
I think it is interesting how the different medias are saying such different things about all these issues. I found a great news website that shows the different sides of each story. You should check it out to see what MSNBC is saying about the Blue Dogs and how Fox fires back...
http://www.newsy.com/videos/a_bad_case_of_the_blue_dogs
I thought Walker liked Thune *because* Thune is gay. Walker, “gay” isn’t a slur -- what gets you all hot & bothered about Thune being gay?
Where were you when Thune and “Jeff Gannon” the gay escort “reporter” were BFF? Thune’s gayitude has been the subject of discussion for the past four-five years. Can’t put that genie back in the bottle-- “Gay” and “Thune” are forever intertwined like two lovers reunited at last.
Surely we all remember the joke that made the rounds a few years back. When “Jeff Gannon” asked the Senator when he would be coming out of the closet, the Senator replied “Thune!”
Dermott Trellis-
You hit the nail on the head (no pun intended).
There's nothing wrong with being gay.
But Walker recoiling just proved my point: no matter how handsome Thune may be, the party that worships that retard Sarah Palin will never vote for a gay man.
Romney and Huckabee would eat Thune alive (again, no pun intended).
Hey Nate (and Co.)-
Is anyone mentioning that there are going to be at least 3 different bills that have to be reconciled? If the Baucus and Finance Committee's bill is a lot less liberal than the others, isn't the end mashup going to be more liberal? In other words, might the Finance Committee's bill be something to add a center of gravity for the Moderate/Conservative Dems and get them and maybe some Republicans to commit before the reconciliation process?
Eric said...
. . . get them and maybe some Republicans to commit before the reconciliation process?
Commit? There are many examples of a bill's sponsor voting against the bill they introduced when it comes to a final vote on the floor, whether there were any changes or not to the bill.
Committing to a bill many times is just for show. The 'committer' can always find some reason to vote against it if/when it comes time to put the money where the mouth is.
Sometimes, a bill is introduced, and a Congresscritter supports the bill because an election is coming up, and it is electorally better to support the bill. Then after the election, the motive for support is no longer there, and the support disappears like the morning dew on a hot, dry day.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Nate, the answer to why Baucus is doing this is a lot simpler than you are trying to make it.
Merck & Co $35,000
American Soc/Pension Prof & Actuaries $25,000
American Society of Anesthesiologists $25,000
Schering-Plough Corp $25,000
Abbott Laboratories $24,000
College of American Pathologists $22,500
lue Cross/Blue Shield $21,500
Pfizer Inc $21,000
American Academy of Ophthalmology $20,000
And this is only from the most recent cycle. (http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cid=N00004643&cycle=2010)
From a recent NPR report:
"Just 5 percent of Baucus' re-election funds came from Montana donors."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106655060
Jenny -
Of course I knew about Kucinich's abortion opinions.
I'm pro-choice myself, but I don't get your point.
You're saying that if someone ever disagreed with you in the past, even if they agree with you now, you still condemn them. That makes no sense whatsoever.
If I were a moderate Republican given today's political climate and the sad shape of the GOP, I would want to be at the table. While I might not be at risk at present, the trend data ( up Nate's ally) is not all that promising for the GOP.
Second if I vote yes, the health care package does not kick in for 3 years, and if it looks like there is a huge public out cry, I could always sponsor new legislation and get myself off the hook.
Third, I have this image to deal with of a party of no way, no how, no obama and that might sell in 8 states, the rest of the country is not exactly thrilled with the GOP fringe, including the birthers.
Lastly, the Republicans still own the war and the economic mess and have failed to put the responsibility for that mess on the Dem's.
I think the smart play for Grassely is to sit at the table. BTW Collins and Snow get away with being Republicans, but their are limits to what the voters in their states will tolerate.
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