My apologies that posting has been a little slow over the past couple of days. The bad part about working for myself is that I hate my boss. After scrambling like mad to meet a couple of deadlines earlier this week, Worker Nate basically decided to go on a sit-down strike against Boss Nate.
The big news of the day is the letter sent by a "gang" of six "bipartisan" senators (there was a sale on scare quotes at Target today) urging Harry Reid and Mitch McConnell (and by implication, the White House) that "taking additional time" on health care would be advisable. It's easy to read the letter cynically: "later" in senate speak quite often means "never". That might be particularly so on health care: odds are, frankly, that the Administration will continue to lose political capital until the unemployment rate improves, which even if a recovery in GDP growth is around the corner (which many economists think it is) is liable to take some time. Push this debate back to the autumn, and the effort could be being lead by a President whose approval ratings are in the low 50's or perhaps even the high 40's.
What's interesting, though, is who exactly is in this "gang". Five of the six are whom you'd expect: three conservative Democrats (Liberman, Landireu and Ben Nelson) and two liberal Republicans (Collins, Snowe). But then there's Oregon's Ron Wyden, who is not particularly conservative and in fact is usually thought of as being rather liberal.
Wyden, as you may know, has his own version of health care reform, which is entitled the Healthy Americans Act (HAA). The HAA is, in some ways, a more radical restructuring of the health insurance system than any of the other plans currently being contemplated by the Congress. It would completely remove the benefits tax exemption, create a national health insurance exchange (which would be open to everyone including those who opted out of their employer-provided coverage), and set some rather explicit cost-containment targets. I'm on record as being a fan, as are a lot of health care policy wonks like Ezra Klein. The interesting thing about Wyden's bill is that it has co-sponsors from all over the political spectrum: not just centrists but also fairly liberal Democrats like Jeff Merkley, Ted Kaufman and Daniel Inouye, and rather conservative Republicans like Idaho's Mike Crapo and Utah's Dick Bennett. If we plot the 100 senators from most liberal to most conservative (as determined from DW-NOMINATE scores), support for the HAA seems to be somewhat randomly distributed throughout the population:
It's very rare to see something like this and a reflection of the fact that Wyden's plan cannot easily be characterized as either liberal or conservative ... it's just different.
But what's this have to do with the letter that Wyden and his colleagues sent today? It's not immediately clear. While three of the six "gang" members (Wyden, Lieberman, Landrieu) are sponsors of Wyden's bill, the other three (Snowe, Collins, and Ben Nelson) are not.
My guess, though, is that Wyden wouldn't have signed onto this letter unless he thought there was a real chance to marshal support for his bill. And my guess is that the other five signatories probably understood that.
It's actually not completely clear that the Senate can't find 60 votes for the HELP Committee's bill once push comes to shove (much less 50). But those votes certainly won't be had easily, and Wyden's bill arguably represents an easier path. It begins with five Republican co-sponsors (Bennett, Crapo, Judd Gregg, Lamar Alexander and Linsday Graham) and would probably have little difficulty getting Snowe's and Collins's votes as well. The downside is that there might be a dozen or so Democrats who are extremely reluctant to touch the benefits tax exemption, which some of the AFL-CIO unions like AFSCME are very protective of. So the White House would either have to make some phone calls or find a few more Republicans to support the Wyden bill.
Ultimately, though, this presents an opportunity to find a bipartisan solution that doesn't have to be a compromise solution -- a lot of smart, progressive folks think Wyden's bill is better on its face than the "traditional" versions that have been drafted by the House and the Senate, much less what those versions will look like after they've been through the meat-grinder of the Senate floor. The White House doesn't need to take more time on health care: it may simply need more votes. Especially after this letter today, it ought to at least be actively considering whether Wyden's bill is the way to get them.
7.17.2009
On Health Care, Bipartisanship without Compromise?
by Nate Silver @ 7:24 PM...see also bipartisanship, health care, political capital, senate
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)

120 comments
Ah Nate,
I have a boss just like yours... some days I have to brush my teeth without a mirror to avoid a ruckus!
Thank you for this article. I need to look into the "different" plan more in order to make a reasoned comment on that -- but I don't need to learn anything further to know that putting health care reform off is not good for the health... of America.
Considering the unions just got a nice bill of their own, I'm sure support could be found within their ranks.
I think you meant BOB Bennett.
Nate…
At this point we don’t need distractions. If the current bill is not satisfactory to some lawmakers, their job is to argue within either the House or Senate to amend the bill. The more old ideas that are resurrected at this stage, the sooner this will look like Dawn of the Dead—zombie arguments claiming everyone’s attention, and real reform slipping away unnoticed out the back.
Even discussing these other plans provides distraction, in my view.
They all know this bill's not even going to get out of the E&C committee, and even if it did pass the house, there's no scenario for such a partisan bill to even come close to getting through the senate. Now it's all for show, to try to create a 2010 campaign issue.
The Wyden proposal offers some intellectual interest, but it's too radical.
So, we're going to be stuck again with nothing done, all because the libs insist on destroying the system in order to save it.
There are so many constructive and productive non-partisan things that could be done, like decoupling insurance from employment, treating all insurance benefits equlally tax-wise, allowing people to buy economical insurance packages that fit their needs and aren't redistibution in disguise, and creating more competition in both the insurance and provider markets, for starters.
It is interesting to note Obama´s comments on this bill in a July 1, 2009 according to wikipedia:
The president said his discussions with Wyden are similar to those with people who advocate a single-payer system. In theory, those plans work, he said. "The problem is, we have evolved partly by accident into an employer-based system." A "radical restructuring" would meet "significant political resistance," Obama said, and "families who are currently relatively satisfied with their insurance but are worried about rising costs ... would get real nervous about a wholesale change."
It seems that as much as Obama is for `change´, as much he is also anti
`big change´.
I think Wyden is more likely trying to get leverage for the Free Choice Act, which grafts a HAA-like option onto the House/HELP bill. I think the leadership would consider that a small price to pay. I don't think even he believes that the GOP cosponsors of his bill would vote to hand Obama a major victory. Don't forget that in 1994 Bob Dole voted against a bill he'd introduced; it's certainly not unheard of for Senators to vote against bills they've co-sponsored. The others combine grandstanding with an effort to leverage more Medicare $ for rural areas. I'm curious what Lieberman thinks he's doing. He has no history as being at all conservative on health care or economic issues more broadly (other than being a wanker on stock option expensing). Doesn't he ever want to get his seniority back?
Rudy said…
“There are so many constructive and productive non-partisan things that could be done, like decoupling insurance from employment, treating all insurance benefits [equally] tax-wise, allowing people to buy economical insurance packages that fit their needs and aren't [redistribution] in disguise, and creating more competition in both the insurance and provider markets, for starters.”
Gee, now why didn’t anybody else think of that? Please outline how you would do each of the above. I’ll even list them for you, make it easier.
♦ Decouple insurance from employment—since employers provide insurance privately I’m assuming you mean for the government to step in and put a stop to that. How do you see it working otherwise?
♦ Treating all insurance benefits equally tax-wise—so, you are proposing another big tax program by the government, if I read this correctly.
♦ Allowing people to buy economical insurance packages that fit their needs—this sounds like a “free-market” solution; but that’s what we have now. The “free market” has given us the present indescribable mess. To have anything different, you would need outside intervention, and who do you propose to provide that? The government?
♦ Creating more competition in both the insurance and provider markets. Huh??? Competition is another aspect of a “free-market”. If the competition we have now does not meet with your approval, again you are asking some outside force to create this competition. Again, who but the government are you thinking of?
What you are doing—IMO—is just parroting talking points. Please answer the above, and prove me wrong.
It looks like health care reform is getting ruined by compromise. The HAA would be fine, as would a straight co-op as would be a an expansion of Medicare to all (with a buy in cost for those that can afford it - this is my fav) but the sausage making in DC is going to ruin them all and come out with something very expensive and unworkable.
Boss Nate - we have all been there before, you need to cut down on this employee's extra-circular activities, no more fun for this man ever! We need him out here.
Oh, and congrats to some of your secondary posters on the site, who are upping their game and beginning to get almost to your shadow.
Best polling report ever:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/study_most_children_strongly?utm_source=onion_rss_daily
Bradford,
LOL!
And I see that TheOnion can report a poll just as accurately as some of the wingnuttery around here (maybe even better!):
68% responded 'NOOO!'
15% responded 'I Hate You!'
10% responded 'No!'
8% responded 'Go Away!'
5% Refused to say
Total it up and we get a 106% response rate!
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Want more time? Then convince your peers to forgo the August break. That should give you plenty of time to work it out.
As I see it, there are two major problems with the HAA bill:
1. No real competitive pressure put on private insurance companies/conglomerates; no incentive for them to lower their overhead costs or on drug companies to lower prices. It also has no mechanism for preventing insurance industries from just raising premiums yet again without making absolutely VITAL structural and philosophical changes.
2. The current "bipartisan" support it enjoys would absolutely evaporate if it became the official proposal of the congressional majority because many of the (especially Republican) co-sponsors and supporters are using it (among other proposals) solely as a spoiler for the Democrats' "public option" proposals. They don't want it to actually pass, they just want to ACT as obstructionists without APPEARING to be obstructionists. Politics 101.
Basically, it's a sort of giveaway to the insurance and pharmaceutical industries masked as "radical" reform with only minor compromises demanded of them.
Prospero424…
Your analysis is perfect. Introducing (or reintroducing) alternate plans will do nothing but waylay the present push. (That’s what I was trying to say earlier.) The only thing discussion of alternatives will do is create enough smoke and noise so that all the important aims can be hustled offstage.
Thanks!
I just read in one of the linked article above that, apparently, Ezra Klein agrees with a least my second point:
"...Republican consultant Alex Castellanos centered his latest memo around slowing down the health-care bill. "If we slow this sausage-making process down, we can defeat it," he wrote. The key message, he said, is "SLOW DOWN the OBAMA EXPERIMENT WITH OUR HEALTH.” Emphasis his."
"Delay, in other words, is a lot of things, but one of those things is a Republican tactic. Which makes it even weirder to see delay also sold as a key portion of a bipartisan bill."
Figure it out: who are the people who will be hurt worst if employee health benefits are made taxable? Those with gold-plated packages. Who are those people? Most of them are very well-to-do. Doesn't it strike you as odd that there are Republicans as far to the right as Crapo who are supporting a proposal that will hurt the well-to-do MORE than the rest of the population? Isn't that
"socialism"?
The recession is almost sure to keep unemployment rates over 10% well into next year, even if the recovery takes place -- jobs always lag recessions. This means Obama's mojo is going to go down as well, as more and more people get impatient and buy into the idea that "it's Obama's economy now."
HAA may be sound like a good idea to you, Nate, but at least some of the people who are pushing it are doing so to drag out the process until they can kill ANY proposal, and you play into their hands when you take their support at face value.
There are two outcomes that Obama may be able to pull off NOW -- ramming through a pretty-good-bill with 50 votes or putting through a not-so-good-bill with 60. Either way, the insurance and medical establishments' hold on health care will be terminally damaged, and at a future time, when the economy is in better shape, there will be an opportunity to adjust the program. There will NEVER be another chance like this one, however, to get the ball rolling.
BTW, Lieberman has been in the pockets of the insurance companies for decades. His goal, I'd bet anything, is to drag the process out until the government insurance option is killed as part of a desperate compromise.
Nate:
Why do you get all stupid on the economy. You freaking mentioned the fact most economists think economy is about to turn around. ARe you looking at polls of economists for econ guindance now???? If Zogby kept polling the same 1000 people every year to predict election results, and they were way off every election, wouldn't you discount that poll. When have the mainstream economists been right on anything in the last few years. They missed the housing collaspe and the finanical collaspe, for God's sake, me a plain old engineer working in the construction industry saw/heard those coming like freight train.
If your source, sample group is consistently unrealiable, stop paying attention to them are be prepared to look stupid.
Look at this comment in 6 months to a year and see if I or your "economists" were right. We are in the first stages of a second great depression, this will get much worse this fall and 2010 will be dismal. Dow will go well below March lows.
Obama knows this, that is why he is in hurry to get healt care done
By the way, I have a friend who is self-employed, she always says her boss is a b1tch, but sometimes she buys her nice computers and gadgets.
HAA is just another plan that will put the cost mainly on the middle class. I am an incredibly liberal democrat who will not support HAA, and will be angry, if we have to pay the bill as always. Republicans talk about "gold plated health care plans" as a tactic to make it look like they support the rich getting taxed. In reality, the great majority of the people who have such plans are like me, a teacher. I make $44,000 a year and for decades our union has given up decent raises or alternative benefits, selling out all else, so that we can retain a good health care plan. It really is the only thing we have. I will never be rich as a teacher; I will never have a huge house; never the fancy care; but dammit, I have a good health care policy that the union has to fight for each and every year giving up everything else. We are the people who will pay the bill under HAA, not the people making 350,000 a year, or a million or a billion. Republicans are not being generous when they talk about taking gold plated health care, they know who really has it.
The CBO just graded the Dem's House Health Care proposal ("America’s Affordable Health Choices Act"). It comes out close to being revenue neutral!
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10464/hr3200.pdf
Obama and the Democratic party should just ignore distractions like HAA and push the House proposal through with 50 votes in the Senate. Wyden and the other centrists are probably just trying to flatter their own egos if they don't have more nefarious intentions to create delays.
My position on the health care "debate" remains as it has been for a long time: only a single-payer plan that eliminates the price gouging of the existing insurance-industrial-pharmaceutical complex, combined with a truly universal national health care system, will adequately solve the health care crisis. Anything less will simply continue the status quo, become yet another gift to the private health care industry, and will offer only a patina of "universal health care" that will be wiped away in the next Republican (or even ConservaDem) cycle.
The fact that Obama has decided not to hitch his wagon with single payer, but instead has simply offered a slightly-more varnished variation of Romney/Hillary MassCare (i.e., force consumers to buy private insurance and employers to offer same, but with no guarantee of cost controls whatsoever) with a dash of Medicare Part D mixed in, and a weak "public option" that won't even be available to those wanting out of private insurance until at the most 2013, shows how much he and the Dems are totally dependent on the insurance companies to set the agenda.
The only thing that makes this plan even that much palatable is that the Repubs offer no alternative than the usual tired, refired beans of tax cuts for the wealthy, private Health Savings Accounts paid for by a bustout of Medicare and Social Security, and, of course, a total shredding of the safety net. All for the glory of the "free market", mind you.
If it turns out like I think it will, and we see a repeat of what happened in 1993-94 with Hillary's proposed health care "reform", the resulting freefall for the Dems will make the 1994 elections seem tame. Were the Repubs not so far in the tank right now, they could even be planning their comeback.
The only benefit that may arise in this is that it may finally be the spark that allows independent-minded liberals and Leftists to ease themselves from the Obama worship and Democrat dependency and stake their own independent position in favor of actual reforms like single payer. The only question is, is there anyone on the Independent Left who can play the same role that Sarah Palin will do for the right-wing populists?? (Except, of course, with a bit more deft of brains than Mooseburger has shown so far.)
Failing that, more than likely we'll get something along the lines of what Sen. Wyden is offering, but trimmed by the ConservaDems in the Senate to offer more "savings" at the expense of universality, and probably by cutting the working poor out of most of the benefits. Obama will pretend to hold his nose while he signs this into law, and then the blame game attacking "the Left" for blocking "real reform" will begin as Obama goes into his "Triangulation 2" mode and transforms himself into Bill Clinton II, New Democrat, with the full approval of the media and the astonishment of the Republicans.
Maybe it's only me the radical skeptic thinking aloud, but there it is. It's certainly worthy of thought.
Anthony
Anthony,
You're heart might tell you it's the best, and I and others might agree with you, but ALWAYS remember that successful politicians always operate under the tried and true philosophy that successful politics is 'what is possible, which may or may not be the totality of what is desired'.
I agree that it would almost certainly be much better than what we have today. In the current American political environment, though, it would be very difficult to say that a single-payer plan combined with a truly universal national health care system is truly possible.
Maybe in another 20 years (after the funeral of the GOOPer Party) implementation of such a system might be possible, but not in today's political environment.
That means we try to make any improvements we can to the system we are currently stuck with, or don't do anything. Not doing anything is the worst of choices, so that means we need to fight to get what we can, even if it isn't totally what we want.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Mike:
I can certainly respect what you are saying, and I perfectly understand the difference between what I would love to have happen and what I will more than likely will have to settle for for now. I certainly think that any decent reform would be better than nothing, and that even a really, really cruddy Dem alternative would still be preferable to the status quo, or whatever the Repubs and the Right would offer.
But, I wouldn't be me if I wasn't the radical bombthrower here, suggesting the notion of driving for what we really want. Incrementalism isn't a bad thing in itself, but if there isn't a solid goal to reach for, even if it seems so far away and beyond the grasp at the present, then how do we motivate ourselves to take even the tiny steps??
I only wish I didn't have the feeling that I'm living through Political Groundhog Day one more time. But...we shall see.
Anthony
I think Obama reads your site. (And/or he has Wyden's phone number.)
From his weekly address today:
" Finally, opponents of health reform warn that this is all some big plot for socialized medicine or government-run health care with long lines and rationed care. That’s not true either. I don’t believe that government can or should run health care. But I also don’t think insurance companies should have free reign to do as they please.
That’s why any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans – including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest – and choose what’s best for your family. And that’s why we’ll put an end to the worst practices of the insurance industry: no more yearly caps or lifetime caps; no more denying people care because of pre-existing conditions; and no more dropping people from a plan when they get too sick. No longer will you be without health insurance, even if you lose your job or change jobs."
That's the first time I've seen him mention the health insurance exchange, at least.
Basic rule of thumb, if Joe Lieberman says something, do the opposite.
I am only half joking, but I think there is a sense in which Health Care reform needs to be done sensibly. There does need to be a sense of a moderate reform that is largely agreed upon rather than just the Dems steamrollering through something. But that doesn't mean the Democratic leadership should drop anything even slightly controversial. In my view there needs to be a public option, otherwise whats the point of reform? Healthcare reform isn't just about costs, its about universal coverage.
The public option plan will evolve into a single-payer plan, I promise you. Not this year, not next year, but eventually. Obama knows it, and the conservatives fighting against the public option in all its various incarnations know it. The only people who don't seem to know it are the ones who honestly think that you can both preserve and reform our current system.
The public option is everything right now. There will be more bills after this one, as sure as the sun rises in the morning, but the most important thing at this moment (as Obama knows very well) is to get America across that virginal threshold of allowing everyday people to actually sign up for a government healthcare plan. That's the biggest obstacle to reform, because in many ways it's a cultural obstacle, an ideological relic of the last century. Once people see that allowing taxpayers to participate in a government plan doesn't mean ZOMG COMMUNISM!!1!, it will be much easier to tweak the system into one that works more like a single-payer. Again, conservatives know this very well, they know that allowing people to sign up for a public option will have a destabilizing effect on the private industry. Personally, I say good riddance, but that's why they oppose it so vehemently.
Patience is the word of the day. Consider the magical possibility that some of the people working on this problem actually know what they're doing and have a long-range plan, the current fevered rhetoric notwithstanding.
~ The Other Peter
Thank you, The Other Peter, for putting it so plainly.
It's really a choice between starving the insurance companies to death, or having an epic struggle trying to beat their head in.
And it's not so much The People (who are really suffering right now, no matter what they might say) who are the barriers as it is the legislative representatives who get their real power and influence by shafting The People.
Off topic, but this is a good, balanced econ article not to be missed:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/207218
Ezra Klein writes that the Republicans co-sponsoring Wyden's bill don't actually support the bill: "It would be nice if there were seven Republican votes sitting ready to sign onto the Healthy Americans Act...[b]ut having followed this legislation for years now, I've seen no evidence of that fact. Instead, Republicans sign on with the caveat that they oppose the things the bill actually says it will do, but support the general idea that Republicans should be consulted on health care reform."
To all, but especially "Pragmatus":
a number of the comments on this post have edged into well known Facist/Marxist "I know better than you, silence and obey me!" territory. Please remember in your advocacy that "Politics is the art of the possible." Now, please note that removing the tax incentive, which incidentally accrues to both the employer and the employee, one through a business expense deduction and the other through a non-taxed income status, will result in a tax increase for individuals. For example, given the fairly standard 75% employer/25% employee premium split, an employee paying a $400.00 month premium ($4800.00 per year) will see an taxable income increase of $14,400, taxed at the highest marignal rate paid by that person...with no actual increase in total compensation (cash wages and benefits". Add to that the inevitable increase in Medicare "payroll taxes" needed to pay for the "public option", and I'm not really seeing a huge benefit for the working American.
Whether its a car salesman or a politician, whenever they say "this has to be done now...or else!" you better run away. If these politicians would actually put aside ideology for a week, they might actually come up with health care reform by the end of the year that would benefit the entire country and not ruin the economy. I'm not hopeful though.
President draws line in the sand on public opttion (which is supported by over 70% of the American people):
http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/07/17/late-night-news-on-the-public-option-obama-draws-line-in-sand/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/7/18/754715/-Obama:-Seize-opportunity-for-health-reform,-or-lose-it-for-a-generation
Apparently that corrupt piece of shit Kent Conrad is at it again...
On this "devastating blow" of CBO’s chair pronouncement - it’s more premature than a gooper’s ejaculation - and looks like President Conrad called this guy in as pushback against WH pressure.
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/6404
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/6401
And there's this...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/7/16/571/80203
PRICK.
Pragmatus, please don't take your frustrations out on me. I didn't say any of the laundry list I rattled off was original thinking or even individually a wonderous solution. But they all help address solvable problems without dismantling what is the best health system in the world and implementing an unbaked grandiose vision.
You say the free market caused the problems, but how can that be when the health insurance industry is one of the most regulation and mandate laden industries in the US, burdened government-caused costs? The lack of a free market and the biggest buyer using dictatorial pricing power to shift costs away from it and onto the private sector are the biggest reasons for the displacements we face.
The grand scheme is deader than Bernie. Congress should work on better solutions that get rid of the barriers to competition.
CBO Scores Confirms Deficit Neutrality of Health Reform Bill
Washington, D.C. — The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) released estimates this evening confirming for the first time that H.R. 3200, America’s Affordable Health Choices Act, is deficit neutral over the 10-year budget window – and even produces a $6 billion surplus.
Henry Waxman is going to love dealing with the Blue Dogs next week with this big-ass stick in his hand.
gbthrone…
I have to confess you lost me, starting with the sojourn into the “Fascist/Marxist territory”. Sorry, but you’ll have to come down onto our lowly Earth plane in order for me to understand you.
Rudy…
A standard GOP trick is to say “What the Democrats are proposing will (fill in some apocalyptic scenario here). What we really need to do is (insert string of platitudes here).” You get an “A+” in talking points, but an “F” in substance. You can’t take mindless blather and fashion either law or policy from it.
All you had to do was elaborate on your platitudes, put some meat on them, and the fact that you found that impossible sums the whole thing up perfectly.
The crux of this problem is controlling future costs. these are driven by
1)insurance companies
2)the medical profession
3)technology
4)electors
Any successful bill will have to manage some of the above. The difficulty is managing comprehensive health care while managing costs? This has always been the challenge?
I failed to say that every developed country has had the same difficulty re:controlling costs? The Right, has always used this "truth" to block universal health care. But, controlling future costs of healthcare is key because it impacts on the U.S.A.'s ability to compete in international markets.
This is an incredibly difficult joint to cut. Nevertheless, it is an issue which must be dealt with?
More than most things (other than HR676) the devils of the health care debate are in the details. A Public Option could indeed become a single payer, but it will have to have the leadership and process that will not cut it off at the knees and become the dumping ground that all the uninsured folk are already in.
The HAA (beyond its very off putting Orwellian name) is a sea of red flags that are not addressed. It could easily be built as the Swiss or Dutch "Single payer" plans where there was very strict or eliminated profits with none on basic care.
On the other hand it could also become a feeding frenzy for insurance companies where there were no good options for actual people and the usual plague of bureaucrats preventing actual care and living up to all the worst scare stories they claim for "socialized medicine" (their meaning state run USSR style, and not actually socialized like a socialized child).
Ultimately however I think, as others here, that Gang Of Pirate (Repubs & Lieberman) sign on is not actual support but red herring to derail any real action.
Is our health care system so costly because our doctors (and many of our well-positioned nurses) get paid obscene money?
I ask that trepidatiously since I am a lawyer.
Small grammar point:
"Five of the six are whom you'd expect"
Come on, no-one talks like this, so why write like it?
The accusative has been dying in English for hundreds of years. Around the time your country was being founded, they were having the same discussion over 'ye' and 'you'. Well, 'ye' lost, and so will 'whom'. Why prolong its death-throes?
It still sounds alright after a preposition, and just about tolerable after a demonstrative pronoun. But "Five of the six are whom you'd expect"? This is madness!
Apologies to whomever of you find grammar posts irritating.
Pragmatus, you accuse me of talking points, but if they were, wouldn't you already be familiar with their substance than requiring remedial education? These are not unknowns, so I didn't feel compelled to waste time rehashing their logic. You seem to be willfully ignorant of anything that's not part of the grandiose scheme. I'm not interested in engaging in partisan tit-for-tat arguments that can go nowhere, nor in having substance dismissed as supposed talking points. But for you, since you only know partisanship, not health insurance, here is some brief elucidation:
1. Treating all health benefits the same tax-wise means either taxing everyone or making all health insurance equally untaxable. I prefer tax incentives for people to buy coverage, not taxes on benefits. Portability is also a big issue, and is why there are gaps in people's coverage. Previous efforts to improve portability (COBRA) have failed because they did not delink insurance from employment.
2. People should be able to buy the coverages they want, not laden with mandated benefits that subsidize other people. Young people often find health insurance to be a poor value because their insurance cost is effectively a subsidy for other people's benefits they don't want or need. There needs to be better definition of insurable events so that people can truly buy protection from catastrophic illness if that's all they want.
3. Competition is the crux of controlling costs in any marketplace. It works in other insurance markets, but no so well in health care because it is handicapped by having cost structures inflated from cost-shifting by providers trying to make up for inadequate government payment rates and by having to absorb uncompensated care. That helps make the value proposition for buying health insuance grimmer, perpetuating the problem.
If you can get past your partisanship, you should be interested in also containing defensive medicine, which entails huge costs. Real reform would truncate medical liability by recognizing that doctors cannot reasonably forsee every possibility to produce a perfect outcome, and that exhausing all possible scenarios when diagnosis or outcome is in question necessarily is extremely expensive. But doing so would also mean an outcome hit to some people, especially the ambulance chasers, who are someone's big constituency, which is why there's little discussion of this.
Private insurance is a failure for all but private insurance companies.
We need to kill the devil that is private insurance and take all the money and all go on medicare.
I was going to weigh in heavily against my Senator Wyden, but prospero424 said it better, so I'll just support him.
As for marketplaces, healthcare is simply not a market. Health is not a commodity. For that matter, healthcare is not a commodity. There is not a buyer-seller relationship between patient/provider or provider/insurer. That leaves patient/insurer, and insurance is a bizarre commodity at best, serving as a surrogate for healthcare. The Netherlands tried to introduce market forces into health insurance in 2006, and they are having to pull back because if its negative effect on quality of care.
For those who fear that the public option will morph into single payer, I say that unless the private insurers can cut costs and profits to match the public option, then single payer is the right thing to do. In some places (e.g., France), public and private can exist side-by-side. Maybe here, if the greedy can give up some of their greed.
Kudos to Obama for today's national address.
As PorridgeGun has pointed out, the CBO report released yesterday predicts that the Health Reform Bill would be revenue neutral over the next 10 years, while simultaneously covering 40 million additional Americans.
Sounds pretty good, except for the fact that revenue neutral means that we are still on a path to financial ruin.
Don't get me wrong, I support the plans being proposed as demonstrably superior to the status quo. But I would have liked to see a plan that aggressively tackled spiraling health care costs, and one that addressed the long term deficits that health care is creating for our country.
OK..so let's break down Rudy's basic ideas on health care reform.
1. Treating all health benefits the same tax-wise means either taxing everyone or making all health insurance equally untaxable. I prefer tax incentives for people to buy coverage, not taxes on benefits. Portability is also a big issue, and is why there are gaps in people's coverage. Previous efforts to improve portability (COBRA) have failed because they did not delink insurance from employment.
Translation here: only provide enough insurance for those who can transfer between jobs that still benefits the status quo, and to hell with those who lose their jobs permanently or who have to cope with medical expenses in the internim. And, of course, more of those classic tax cuts for the wealthy to enable them to afford transfering their expenses.
Of course, the question remains where all the savings for these cuts will come from..but I guess that's why we'll just have to privatize Medicare and Social Security and eliminate Medicaid as "welfare"...right, Rudy??? And simply let the working poor fend for themselves during a recession, too.
2. People should be able to buy the coverages they want, not laden with mandated benefits that subsidize other people. Young people often find health insurance to be a poor value because their insurance cost is effectively a subsidy for other people's benefits they don't want or need. There needs to be better definition of insurable events so that people can truly buy protection from catastrophic illness if that's all they want.
Yeah...why should us decent, wealthy, healthy, affluent folk ever have to "subsidize" the poor health decisions of the riff-raff, the "illegal aliens", the "slutty" feminists, and those evil unions?? If they can't understand the notion of living right and prevention through making "good", moral decisions (especially decisions that WE approve of), then they shouldn't have decent health care to begin with. Health care is a privilege only for moral folk like us, not a "right". /snark
What all that ignores is that the majority of people here are already paying through the nose, the mouth, and through other orfices for the "health decisions" of those who are already insured, thanks to the price gouging and profit taking of the HMO's, the pharmaceutical industry, and the private bureaucracy.
A single payer plan (or, a robust public option plan ultimately leading up to single payer) would put an abrupt end to all that by removing that element of price gouging and allowing for a simpler, cleaner, and more efficient means of payment and delivery of health care..and it would allow doctors and health professionals to focus more on their patients than on playing accountants.
[continued on next post -- Anthony]
[continued from last post]
3. Competition is the crux of controlling costs in any marketplace. It works in other insurance markets, but no so well in health care because it is handicapped by having cost structures inflated from cost-shifting by providers trying to make up for inadequate government payment rates and by having to absorb uncompensated care. That helps make the value proposition for buying health insuance grimmer, perpetuating the problem.
Ahhh..OK...so the main idea is to make health insurance even LESS affordable and LESS accessible by allowing providers to wean off "freeloaders" (read, those working poor who are so unfortunate enough not to be able to afford the deductables and copays but still can be mined for the profiteering of the HMO's)..but cover it all up with the chemera of "competition"???
Yeah, right....like we have such great competition right now, with HMO comglomerates signing exclusive deals with businesses to monopolize health care coverage. (My current employer is contracted with Blue Cross/Blue Sheild of Alabama; and I'm mostly locked in without any choice of doctor or provider.) But never mind that...those $4 scripts at Walmart will solve the problem, and if you happen to be sick enough but can't afford decent health care...well, you'll just have to suck it up and choose between your job and your health. Free enterprise, you know.
If you can get past your partisanship, you should be interested in also containing defensive medicine, which entails huge costs. Real reform would truncate medical liability by recognizing that doctors cannot reasonably forsee every possibility to produce a perfect outcome, and that exhausing all possible scenarios when diagnosis or outcome is in question necessarily is extremely expensive. But doing so would also mean an outcome hit to some people, especially the ambulance chasers, who are someone's big constituency, which is why there's little discussion of this.
Ah, yes..the "ambulance chasers"...which would mean. I suppose, those evil liberal "trial lawyers" who are ready to sue HMO's and hospitals and doctors at the drop of the hat for such banal things as medical malpractice, throwing out indigent people from hospitals and leaving them to die because they can't charge them up the ying yang, and overcooking the books with "pre-existing medical conditions" and other means of blocking coverage. Yeah..gotta protect our profits from these shysters, indeed.
Here's a better idea, Rudy: How about we actually train doctors better to avoid getting sued in the first place, or provide decent and affordable health care through a transparent and flexible system which respects patient/doctor autonomy while getting rid of the middlemen and pencil pushers?? And how about we stop imposing our own biases about who should get quality health care, and simply say that health care is a right for everyone??
Feel free to call that "partisan": I prefer to call it simple human decency.
Sorry for the length, but I'm just tired of conservative pretentions.
Anthony
Anthony, your "translation" is invective, not illuminative. It's OK if you want to disagree with me, but please do so with substantive arguments rather than emoting sans logic, twisting my words into every canard you could remember.
Such intransigence is why nothing's going to get done.
Ahhh....no, Rudy....you just don't get to dictate to me or anyone else here how to respond to your arguments.
It's not just a matter of disagreeing with you, it's a matter of debunking all of your right-wing talking points and revealing the true vision behind your arguments.
The only "intransiegence" I see here is in your efforts to demonize your critics when faced with an effective counterargument. All I've done is deliver an alternative view. If you don't like it..too bad. The world doesn't rotate around Rush Limbaugh's axis.
Anthony
The bottom line is for me...do I really want the government making decisions about my health? Absolutely not.
Proponents of a public option - do you really think that will not happen? Please convince me.
Madeline-
get a clue, Medicare makes FEW choices about care. Medicare actually has fewer limitations on my parents than my company, one of the largest in the country, makes on my healthcare.
Additionally, the 400 billion in "profit" taken by medical insurance overhead can go to patient caRE.
...and yes Madeline, I would greatly prefer the government make my healthcare choices than Wall Street gambling and gaming my health care to make a fast buck.
Bradford,
Re: Medicare, Good point. I thought about that.
I also thought that I could post something and have some civil discourse going on. I don't believe I said anything to deserve your opening comment "Get a Clue". Thanks
Anthony, there was no effective counterargument in there, only antipathy to anything not socialist. That doesn't play in America. By positing that unlimited health care access as a right is offensive not only to the economics of health care, but also to real human rights. Mandating that the private sector be burdened with excessive costs caused by government generosity with someone else's money ignores the human good that money could do otherwise and elsewhere. Have you no understanding of economics or of what truly constitutes a "right?"
Your sanctimoniousness again illustrates why the grandiose plan goes down in flames and real economic reforms will go undone.
Madeline:
I understand and respect your opinion about not having "government" make each and every decision regarding your health care...just because I tend to support an affirmative government presence doesn't mean that I don't see how on occasion government can overreach.
However....one of the main advantages of public rather than private control is that voters and the public at large do have some means of accountability to impose on providers...whereas, a private company -- even one who takes large amounts of subsidies from the government -- can only be held accountable primarily, in the absence of regulation -- by its majority shareholder. And more than likely, the latter is more concerned with raking in their profits than providing effective care.
I'm not saying that public control is the only true exclusive way, but that in some cases, it can be the most effective means of delivering services to the public.
Anthony
Rudy wrote:
"People should be able to buy the coverages they want, not laden with mandated benefits that subsidize other people. Young people often find health insurance to be a poor value because their insurance cost is effectively a subsidy for other people's benefits they don't want or need."
That's pretty much how insurance works. A risk pool (hopefully) contains a lot more people who will not need to make use of the insurance than those who will.
Every state except Tennessee requires motorists to have at least "bodily injury and property damage liability" coverage, for example. In effect, "safe" drivers provide an "effective subsidy" for unsafe drivers - at least up to the point where "very unsafe" drivers are forced out the general risk pool into the high-risk pool and are charged extremely high premiums.
So "young people" may find health insurance to be a "poor value", in the same way that safe drivers may find the mandated motorist coverage to be a "poor value". Big deal.
If a "safe" driver hits you and puts you in the hospital for a month, do you really want them to be able to shrug and say that have no assets to cover your claims? Sure, you can go after their '85 Dodge that just got totalled, but that's it.
The difference here is that when a "young person" engages in "extreme" activity and ends up in a body cast without insurance, we all pay for it in some way or another. It doesn't have to be a triple bypass surgery or some geriatric condition that causes someone to need health care. Who is more likely to engage in "risk-taking activity" - young people or the elderly?
The very reason for insurance is that accidents and unforeseen events do happen. If one could anticipate it, it wouldn't be "unforeseen".
While not everyone owns a car or drives one, everyone who is alive certainly has a body, and thus a potential for risk.
Madeline wrote:
"The bottom line is for me...do I really want the government making decisions about my health? Absolutely not."
So you would rather have an insurance company making decisions about your health, based on their profit, with the ability to take away your coverage if you become too expensive for them to insure?
A single word really separates right from left in nearly every discussion here and elsewhere and on health and everywhere else.
That word is Empathy, the basic human "there but for grace go I" kind of thinking that is the secret behind the original form of most religions and any other humanist concept.
Once there, civil discussion about what path is best to achieve the goal of improved society is not a tough thing, but to explain empathy or the reasons for it to the empathy devoid is like explaining color to the congenitally blind.
To destroy any society and turn it into a dystopia you must first destroy empathy, assign victims responsibility for their victimhood, and make the "other" some sort of subhuman unworthy of empathy.
Health Care discussion highlights this more than most. Unless very lucky, everyone will eventually have at least one disabling illness,(many caused by our chemical industry if the facts were known)and those with the greatest need will all have the least ability to fund their care.
Those lucky enough to get the most out of society, who get disabled late in life or die suddenly might save enough, the rest would just die horribly.
Those with empathy can feel themselves in that situation, an know that nobody should be there. Those without it can't feel it and don't care, but only feel the deprivations of a few dollars, or extras in life that they might not grab for themselves, and feel that a great deal more.
Thus is ever the right/left divide.
Rudy..that's your opinion and nothing but....I beg to differ.
And single payer is not particularly "socialist", either: many well-heeled capitalist countries use it as an effective means of providing health care to their citizens.
But, I guess that in your mindset, Rudy, anything that doesn't allow for the status quo where private insurance companies are allowed to soak the public for grand profits at the expense of the majority is prima facie "socialist"....right??
And on this nonsense about "other people's money": kinda hypocritical coming from those who have just benefited from nearly $5 TRILLION of "other people's money" (read, the American taxpayers in general) to fund a bailout of the largest financial institutions so that they can pay lobbyists to defend their "socialized" profits and pass the losses onto the backs of same "other people"; and to lobby for legislation that would further expand their gains without any accountability to the "other people" paying for their free ride. But since they're wealthy and "create all the wealth in this country", that kind of "welfare" is perfectly OK by you, right??
Sorry, Rudy, but that boat just isn't floating anymore.
Pardon me if I don't believe that "rights" are simply those that can be bought, but are basic essentials to life, liberty, and functionality that should be provided to everyone. You believe it to be the opposite, and on that we shall disagree.
Anthony
@Madeline-
The government is not in the practice of making health decisions for individuals, unlike the private insurance companies that most of us rely on currently.
It seems far fetched to expect the government to capriciously limit access to particular procedures for some individuals, while allowing care to others. Yet this is exactly what private insurance companies do all the time.
We do not live in some magical world where health care decisions are made exclusively by doctors and patients. If you cringe at the thought of the big bad government making health care decisions for you, how is it that you are comfortable with profiteering insurance company bean counters making those same decisions?
Anthony,
Thanks...good approaches to my question. Without getting too detailed, I feel politically that I'm one of the most objective thinkers among people I know. Most if not all of my friends are very liberal...and my closest relative, my brother, is a Ronald Reagan/Ayn Rand near worshipper.
My best friend is self employed and very passionate that health care is a right, and sees health care in Japan, Canada, and other countries with universal programs as the answer. She almost can't even talk to people who have more concerns about those approaches.
I see both sides of the argument and I am having a difficult time really being comfortable with any solution. So that is why I am posting...Thanks
Have you no understanding of economics or of what truly constitutes a "right?"
You have shown over and over how little grasp you have of economics, and yes, the right to life is a right.
What you rail against is exactly how the current system works. Insurance is based off of a group of people subsidizing others.
If you enjoy having people who want to only make money off you, regardless of any other factor, make health care decisions for you, no one is stopping you for allowing that.
Madeleine said
'The bottom line is for me...do I really want the government making decisions about my health? Absolutely not.
Proponents of a public option - do you really think that will not happen? Please convince me.'
-----------------------
I live in the UK, under what a lot of Americans would call a socialised healthcare system. Noone has ever made a medical decision in regards to mine or anyone else I knows behalf, other than a medical professional. In a public option, medical professionals are left to make decisions about treatment. What is true is that there is naturally some rationing within the system. But this tends only to mean that patients may have to wait for elective procedures longer than most Americans are used to.n
Now as I see it, that balances against the current US system, where firstly many Americans are not covered. Even those who are covered may well find their insurance is inadequate or invalidated by the insurance company. I think many Americans find that right wing talk of a public system putting a bureacrat between you and your doctor as laughable, as that is exactly what happens in the private system. Insurance company bureaucrats decide a lot in terms of healthcare, it seems, in America. And in a far more direct sense than happens in a public system.
Rudy,
Since you are such a stand on your feet guy, why don't you pay for all health care costs for you and your family directly out of your pocket?
If you are using any form of health insurance, others are subsidizing you.
It is amusing how all of these defenders of the status quo rail against socialism, yet the current system is socialism but worse: it is controlled by people with a profit motive.
Critical services such as energy, health insurance, banking, etc should never be allowed to have a profit motive. The fact that they are is the root cause of all our economic problems today.
Make no mistake, the insurance companies have no problem disallowing a payment that could save your life if it is in their best interest to do so. It happens every day. When it happens to you, I wonder if you will still be their mindless defender and go to your grave happy in the knowledge that your death allowed for greater profits.
Or will you scream about how unfair it is and how you have a "right to live"?
Todd, the problem with your auto insurance analogy is it leaves out that the insurance pools are rated based on the experience of the people in the pool. Good drivers pay less than bad drivers. The protection for uninsured motorists is for you, not to pay for the other guy's damage to his car.
But you're right in one regard, that health care should be treated like other insurance, not a honey hole to stick big populations of people with the costs of optional coverages that they don't want or need.
The difference between health insurance and other insurance is that the actuarial costs are far significantly higher for old people than young people. Government has pushed those costs down on the younger population such that the value proposition for health insurance is unattractive to many, inducing them sometimes to go bare, which no one thinks is wise.
The fundamental problem that must be addressed is how to get those economics back in whack. Throwing it all in the government's lap is unacceptable to most.
Our current system of health care is spectacularly wasteful and inefficient. The 2 main culprits as I see it are:
1) Private insurance companies have massive overhead costs (administrative / waste / profits) compared to government run programs such as medicare. Medicare has an overhead of roughly 3% compared to 30% on average for private insurers. If all health care in this country was provided via a private insurance mechanism, we would be overpaying by nearly 30%.
2) Instead of having fixed salaries or salaries linked to health outcomes, doctors in this country are compensated for carrying out procedures. As a consequence there are a great many unnecessary procedures performed. Such extra procedures do not improve outcomes (and may in fact expose patients to unnecessary risks), but they sure do waste a lot of money.
What is true is that there is naturally some rationing within the system. But this tends only to mean that patients may have to wait for elective procedures longer than most Americans are used to.
_____________________________________
Thanks Marky - when I made my first comment about not wanting the government to have a say in "how sick I am will determine my place in line" this is where the crux of my concern is. I am concerned that under a public system, I may be stuck with a critical illness, waiting to get the proper care until the government calls my number.
In my utopian world, I would buy my own insurance, and if they got bureaucratic on my ass (like our current private system does) I would make a change. Competition, right?
I mean, I like competition. I have to deal with it in my job. If I provide bad service, bad product, I lose a customer and maybe go out of business as a result. I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for this statement, but come on!
Does anybody know how many auto companies there were in the beginning of the auto industry?
Freedem wrote:
"That word is Empathy, the basic human "there but for grace go I" kind of thinking that is the secret behind the original form of most religions and any other humanist concept."
The Right is quite willing to employ empathy when it is in their interests.
We can "all be Georgians", for example. We can be told to rally around an unpopular President in an unpopular occupation, because "we are all in this together". We have to spend a trillion to 'liberate' those Iraqis, because that's what America does. And poor Frank Ricci could be you.
When it fails to suit their agenda, movement conservatives are eager to say "you're on your own", "tough bounce", and talk about personal responsibility and "creeping socialism". Poor blacks in New Orleans look for a "handout" after a hurricane, but white victims are "decent, hard-working folks" that just want to get back on their feet again.
Overall, though, I agree with your point and it is well-spoken. The "social Darwinism" of the Republican Party is about as effective now in the current crisis as it was for Hoover in the Depression.
Beavis, you confuse the purpose of insurance. It is to spread risk, not to subsidize. Sharing risk and subsidy are two very different things. When the purpose is to subsidize, only the people wanting to be subsidized want to buy insurance.
It is the subsidies government plans shifting costs to the non-government health insurance market that have caused the problems, not the big bad insurance companies. Again, the value proposition MUST involve fair value of the risk probability for the price paid. Because that is off the rails is why we have such a big problem.
Interesting that you invoke "right to life." Freudian, perhaps. Under any circumstance, rights do not include the right to take someone else's resources. That's called stealing.
You and Anthony have an anti-capitalism, anti-market agenda, so we're not going to go further in this discussion. Good luck.
Madeline, NOBODY is proposing government-owned health care (even though it works in the United Kingdom, Sweden, and elsewhere). Instead, it is a public insurance option. Insurance companies, the last time I looked, do not have waiting lists for care--that is what providers so. HMOs are combination provider/insurer, so you will see some of that in HMOs. As for your utopian world, one of the most compelling reasons for reform is that you CANNOT make changes. You are locked into insurance companies by what your employer does (for employment-based) or your pre-existing health condition, etc. Insurance companies these days are a cartel, acting as a joint monopoly to keep all those profits going. They really do not compete on price or quality, but on ownership of bases of insured.
Again, a system of single-payer insurance is NOT THE SAME as government-owned health care, and anybody who tells you differently has a political axe to grind.
Saint Dude, I suggest you recheck your numbers about the administrative costs of health insurance companies. They are spectacularly overstated. Further, because Medicare spends so little on administative costs has made it vulnerable to huge fraud and waste, as amply documented by the GAO.
Jim,
I agree with your point - but I want to expand on the details. I think that one of the problems is that there are so many government regulations on HMOs...especially at the state levels. I was just reading an article about how the State of Maryland requires coverage for invitro fertalization. I guess that sort of pisses me off. I don't have kids, I don't plan on having them, yet somehow the premium my friend has to pay is high because someone's gotta pay for someone's acupuncture or fertility drugs.
These are the kinds of detail we need to look into. If I am wrong about this point, feel free to correct me.
Madeleine said
'I am concerned that under a public system, I may be stuck with a critical illness, waiting to get the proper care until the government calls my number.'
----------------------
I can only speak in terms of the UK, but I think that might depend on what you considered a 'critical' condition. Emergency procedures are dealt with immediately.
Now the issue comes with a difference between critical and serious. My mother in law has had a bad knee for a long time, and has needed a knee replacement operation. Once it was decided that was what was needed and, she went on a waiting list, and actually benefitted from a cancelled operation, and was bumped up the list a bit, ended up waiting a month rather than twelve weeks.
My sister in law needed a back operation. There was some doubt as to the cause of this, without really wanting to get into details I wonder if in the American system an insurance company may have decided it was a pre existing condition, and made her pay for the treatment. (In the end a couple of reasonably major operations, and the after care). In the UK that wasn't an issue.
Madeline, government regulations of HMOs came about because some bad apples engaged in really bad abuse of the system. To answer the question of what should be covered, we need to look more deeply into what is inappropriate and what is necessary. Inappropriate care is care that doesn't do any good, and is a large contributor to the waste in our health care system. If we could get rid of it, a large part of the money problem would go away. Necessary care is care that should not be excluded from any insurance package, and here there is some wiggle room after some really basic things are taken care of. (Disclosure: I've done research on this topic.) Getting back to the HMOs, a number of them excluded necessary care. Regulation in the absence of solid evidence to fix that problem was ham-fisted (sort of inevitable), and lacked perfection. But there was a net improvement in the situation, as mothers were no longer thrown out of hospitals 24 hours after birth. There are outstanding HMOs and awful HMOs--and they are treated the same. Quality assurance measures as part of health care reform could really help here.
Marky, I think you're putting across a slightly rose-tinted view of the NHS.
It's improved a great deal in the last ten years or so, but for most of my life it was in large part slow, bloated, wasteful and poorly managed.
And in order to get it to the level it is now, Labour have had to pump enormous quantities of money in, contributing to our blowing a healthy budget surplus. That in tun has contributed to the dire fiscal position we're in, and probably will be in for at least another decade.
Of course, a publicly-run health service can be excellent and efficient, and would probably be much better for the US than the system they've got now. But the NHS isn't exactly an object lesson in how to do it well.
Madeline wrote:
"In my utopian world, I would buy my own insurance, and if they got bureaucratic on my ass (like our current private system does) I would make a change. Competition, right?"
No. You would have a "pre-existing condition" that wouldn't be covered if you switched insurers. Maybe we should abolish that, in a utopian world. Even if there were a "public option", you could still buy your own insurance. That's what makes it an "option", after all.
"Single payer" and "public option" are not the same thing, though Republicans commonly conflate them.
McCain's plan was that we all would be required to buy private insurance, and get a tax credit that would cover that expense. This is because Republicans see tax credits as some kind of "free money" that doesn't cost the Treasury anything. In effect, though, the government would be paying for your health care and your taxes would go up to make up for it. The Decider's tax cuts cost $1.5 trillion in foregone revenue. You never hear Republicans ask who is going to make up that foregone revenue, because tax cuts are "free money" in their world.
Jim, are you unaware of the significant wariness by most to a government insurance option? It could be used a a tool for driving out competition by using the goverments dictatorial pricing power that it already abuses in Medicare and Medicaid.
It is disingenuous to suggest that it would be a benign player. There is no appetite to create another Fannie Mae for the health insurance market.
This article (which ends with Wyman's proposal) was the first left-leaning proposal to make any sense at all to this Libertarian. slate: Health, American-Style.
The crux of the issue seems to be whether the change in health care system is going to reflect what we DO want, or what some think we SHOULD want. Markets, free choice and competition have that nasty way of exposing who and what we really actually are - but defying who we actually are is no way to be happy.
An example of 'insurance company intelligence' and compassion:
A person has an operation, let's say an operation on the eye (to repair an injury, a disease, whatever), but because of the operation, the patient now has a lot of irregular astigmatism.
Fifteen years ago and before, the doctor used a hand-held device to map the contours of the cornea, so he could decide where and how to correct the astigmatism, through an operation and/or by glasses.
Fifteen years ago, someone invented a device that is automated to do the exact same job. The advantage is that the new device is consistent in how it maps the contours of the eye. It also is more accurate and faster in doing the mapping. The disadvantage is it costs a little bit more to use this method.
Doctors have found that the automated process is so much more accurate that they now use it all the time, and as a result the patient gets better vision from the prescription glasses.
Insurance companies, however, decide that they don't want to pay for the new procedure, so they call it 'investigational' or 'experimental', point to the area of their policy that says they don't cover 'investigational' or 'experimental' procedures and don't pay. The patient gets stuck with the bill - anywhere from $125 to $175.
If the doctor uses the now-discarded hand-held device, the insurance company will reimburse the doctor, usually a few dollars ($5 - $10) less. However, because the handheld device is not as accurate as the automated procedure, the doctor might not get the correct reading from the machine, and have to do another operation, or change the prescription on the glasses, etc.
Who benefits?
The doctor? No
The patient? No
The insurance company? Yes, if they don't have to pay. And they arrange the deck chairs so they seldom have to pay.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Boing,
I think any healthcare system is tough to run, and obviously it requires spending. (Personally though I would prefer to blow a budget surplus on healthcare than on a tax cut for the rich and costly foreign war but hey thats just me!!)
But I think the NHS is something the UK can be proud of. As I say members of my family have had recent experience of it, and I think a lot better experience than they might have been expected to receive in the US. I am not saying that the NHS should be free from criticism, but largely I think most people who use it are left satisfied with the experience. The British press likes to push the bad experience stories from time to time, and perhaps the biggest lesson from the UK experience is that the political will is needed to maintain an effective system.
"Significant wariness" to a government option??? As in the 70% poll ratings saying that Americans want a public option with their health care....many even wanting that dreaded "socialist" single payer option??
But we can't let that interfere with the "free market", now can we??
Maybe the "siginificant wariness" is more due to seeing the Democrats screw up the legislative process in order to pander to their private health care financial contributors, combined with the false rhetoric about "creeping socialism" put forth by the Rush Limbaughs and Glenn Becks of the world who would rather that only those who can pay the hefty fees get sufficient health care, and the rest simply eat dust??
Naaah...it's just that Americans just love that "free market" approach....and that anyone who disagrees is simply "anti-capitalistic".
Only us evil socialists would disagree with that.
Best of luck to you, too.
Anthony
Rudy wrote:
Jim, are you unaware of the significant wariness by most to a government insurance option?
Jim replies:
Rudy, I am aware of your own opposition, as well as that of others. As to whether the group opposing the public option (mislabeled "government insurance option" by its distractors) constitutes a majority of the people or even a majority of Congress, that is undecided.
Rudy continued:
It could be used a a tool for driving out competition by using the goverments dictatorial pricing power that it already abuses in Medicare and Medicaid.
Jim continues:
We already have dictatorial pricing power by the insurance and pharma cartels. If the public option, by efficiency and negotiation, can bring the price down, so much the better. If the competition goes away instead of cutting its profits, that is called "capitalism."
Rudy concludes:
It is disingenuous to suggest that it would be a benign player. There is no appetite to create another Fannie Mae for the health insurance market.
Jim concludes:
It is disingenuous to say that. What is in it for the public plan? Your statement requires some conspiracy theory to undermine health insurance. I don't subscribe to it.
@Todd July 18, 2009 3:49 PM
"The Right is quite willing to employ empathy when it is in their interests."
-------------------------------------------------
There are occasions when it suits their purpose to use empathy, especially to use as a club on those who have it. but even then it is pure crocodile tears with a very narrow and often fraudulent focus, and of course always for personal benefit that is the very core of Rand/Libertarian ideology where consideration of others is the very source of evil.
@Vern:
Defying who we really are may be no way to be happy, but I heard someone say once that if we'd figured out how to deny it to black people, we would've had single payer healthcare by the early 60s; sometimes "who we really are" isn't actually who we want to be.
I know nobody I know particularly well is horrified at government having a stronger role in health care matters (it's like being told that your daily glass of wine with dinner might just be setting you on the road to terminal alcoholic decline), and none of them find "market" involvement in it, except possibly when it comes to start ups coming up with fancy new equipment or some other sideline operation, terribly appealing or a moral imperative.
Interesting that you invoke "right to life." Freudian, perhaps. Under any circumstance, rights do not include the right to take someone else's resources. That's called stealing.
I will gladly relay that sentiment to the offspring of Native Americans, the Hispanic natives of the Southwestern US whose land was seized against their will through means of war, and the Black and Chinese slave labor who were sent here in chains against their will for cheap labor to pick the cotton and build the railroads that allow your vaunted "free market" to prosper.
It is the subsidies government plans shifting costs to the non-government health insurance market that have caused the problems, not the big bad insurance companies. Again, the value proposition MUST involve fair value of the risk probability for the price paid. Because that is off the rails is why we have such a big problem.
In short, it's that dumb "socialist" mandate that perhaps people who aren't wealthy enough to buy their own private health care should have some option other than to simply either work themselves to death to pay for essential basics or simply die off.
I guess that rather than have people pool their savings into a collective fund that provides for the benefit of all, it should be every man or woman for themselves, and if you are so unfortunate enough to get sick and not be able to pay the appropriate tribute to the proper authorities and pad their profits, then may God bless you on your way out the door.
In other words....far better to allow the rose of the economicially well off 10% bloom brightly by monopolizing all of the water and the fertilizer to let it bloom....and let the other 90% of the population face the weeds and drought on their own.
If opposing that makes me "anti-capitalist", than my response is: "You betcha."
Those who disagree, well, to each his own.
At least, I own my personal biases.
Anthony
Marky -
I wish we hadn't spent a penny on the Iraq war, but let's get things in perspective. The war has cost us less than £1 billion a year. The NHS costs about £100 billion.
I agree we can be proud of the NHS, in the sense that it was a big achievement for the Atlee government to set it up, and was an enlightened step
But compared to France, Germany and the Scandinavian countries, it's inefficient - or at least it has been until the last few years. And its current competitiveness has come at massive cost, which contributed to the fact that when the financial meltdown came we were in a poor position to deal with it fiscally.
I'm glad it's worked out well for your family, but anecdotal evidence is only of so much use.
Still, in the broader context I agree with you. The US has five times our population. If they had NHS-level service for all for half a trillion a year they'd be laughing.
@Anthony:
I think it was the founder of Gimbels who once said, "Why shouldn't I pay half my money in taxes to the public? I got all of it from them in the first place."
Anthony Kennerson…
Good rebuttal to Rudy. You saved me the trouble. Again he failed to do anything more than outline the problems, while throwing in sharper digs about “partisanship” (Hey! Rudy! I’m an independent! Whose party does that favor?) and how nobody but him is being civil. No point going any further with him, I suspect. The talking points will only come out embedded in even more flowery prose.
Madeline…
If you are covered by private insurance, whether you purchased it yourself or are covered by your employer or else your rich uncle pays for it, your healthcare decisions are not being made by you. Every tiny decision your primary care doctor makes regarding your care is reviewed, passed along and either rubber-stamped or rejected by at least a dozen people in the insurance company. Your doctor also has to keep in mind that he will have to answer for every item of your care, in monthly “cost control” meetings, whose purpose is to cow him into providing the stingiest care possible.
In 2006 I was in a bad motorcycle accident that left me with a broken back. While I can get around, with great difficulty, I have been classified as totally disabled, and the FICA premiums I paid throughout my long working life entitled me to Medicare, which I am on. When I need to see a doctor, I call him up and get an appointment. I do not have to get authorizations, approvals, referrals, or tolerate any other insurance-company garbage in order to receive care. I go to an internist for general complaints, but since I have had two back surgeries I went directly to the back doctor. (Three of them actually, since I wanted to have more than one opinion.) None of this required any interference from the government. All medical procedures ordered by the doctors have been performed at the time ordered, with no delay for paperwork, referrals, authorizations, busy-work or insurance-company-drone interference.
You are merely throwing out another “talking point”, because there is no way you could have arrived at a serious concern that “the government will be making your healthcare decisions” if you had relied on common sense, a minimum of investigation, or your own personal experience.
By the way, if anyone has questions about how efficiently Medicare works, straight from the horse’s mouth, I will be glad to answer them.
Another thing—
All the gripes about Medicare supposedly limiting the doctors you can see is pure BS. I live about a quarter mile from Cedars Sinai in Los Angeles, one of the most respected medical centers in the world, and all doctors affiliated with them accept Medicare, as does the hospital and all its affiliated clinics and satellite centers. In contrast, when I was on a private plan through an employer, the only medical groups I could sign up with were from five to ten miles away, and consisted of doctors that frankly would have no patients if they weren’t funneled to them by insurance companies.
So saying the choice of doctors would be severely limited under Medicare or a public option is a complete falsehood. Limitation of choice in medical care only began with the advent of “managed care”, an insurance company euphemism for “care that costs us the least amount possible”.
Rudy said...
Jim, are you unaware of the significant wariness by most to a government insurance option?
Rudy,
Are you unaware of the definition of the word 'option'?
According to the Random House Dictionary, the first three definitions of 'option' (when used as a noun) are:
1. the power or right of choosing.
2. something that may be or is chosen; choice.
3. the act of choosing.
If a bill is passed that has a public option, no one will stick a gun to your head and tell you to choose the public option. If you are happy with your current plan, you have the OPTION to stay with that plan.
Oh, yeah. I forgot. You are a wingnutter, someone who thinks anything that has even the slightest hint of socialism to it is a direct lead to Communism (your local police and firemen will be happy you think of them as Commies, I'm sure); you think that anyone who believes different than you is a traitor; that we should ship all aliens back to their country of origin; and believe that Lush Rimbaugh, Bill O'Lielly, Manthrax Coulter, etc. can say no wrong.
Never mind - go back under the bridge that you inhabit TROLL. I should have realized that TROLLs would not be able to understand the meaning of a word that someone else, because of a political agenda, had defined for them.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
What I find strange is how folk cannot see Health Insurance companies as some form of dystopic horror government. Even the worst imagined horror story of a government program making a stupid decision that makes your care slow or insufficient it is neither personal or aggression to injure you to line their own pockets.
With Insurance that is the basic business plan! There are few general policies to hold costs in check as those can be used to highlight the drawbacks to that particular plan. Instead there is a morass of tricks and traps that let you think you are getting something that you will never receive, or will bypass because the red tape makes it undesirable or impossible.
By example one company makes a big deal of a free eye exam and glasses, but the exam only covers testing for prescription, and any add on to the glasses like shatterproof or darkening will make the cost exceed just buying them that way without Insurance, which is what most will end up doing.
Another trick is to allow payments till significant cost to occur and then deny coverage by any excuse possible leaving those who thought they were insured more bankrupt than if they had never had insurance. There is no government plans that operate this evilly.
Memo to the RNC:
Deploy a more sophisticated set of paid commenters to the FiveThirtyEight site.
Rudy's meager, pouty debate skills are just not going to cut it in a free market activity, while Madeline's "I'm the most open-minded person I know but I have some 'honest' concerns about government run health care that I feel the need to talk through with strangers" act is less obvious but also less credible -- coming, as it does, from a human adult who can spell and seems to have experienced the bureaucratic maze that is private health insurance.
You might actually have to put Rove on the case. Give him a cute nickname and you're set. At least the debate that results will have a bit more energy.
To all those communicating with Rudy-
You get an "A" for effort and "F" for results.No surprise on the latter when you consider that he calls the present healthcare system in the U.S."the best health system in the world."
Face it.You are dealing with a Neanderthal mind that is totally beyond reason.
Poor Madeline makes a baseless post and then screams at me for posting something as deep as "Convince me"
LOL!
Whoaaa, Dwayne, not sure I really earned that jab, especially when my post said I am looking for input on solutions because I am really struggling with this issue. So maybe I made a mistake on this forum by making, I'll admit, a pretty bold statement about myself. Having said that, for the most part, we've just been debating here...there have been some postings through the thread that have been fairly heated, but I have not been directly linked to those, and never have I thrown about labels or joined in any opinion bashing.
If you have a problem with my interest in getting people's opinions on this forum, then I'm sorry. I guess I thought that's kind of what this was for...I feel like I've experienced a lot of good debate so far, and it has helped me out.
By the way, you seem to be linking me with RNC...pretty random. Not sure what that's all about.
Hope we can get back on track.
Geez, everyone gets keyboard courage on these things. Okay Bradford I set myself up for that comment. I am honestly trying to have a good debate and trying to get some perspective here! What's a girl gotta do to just have some regular conversations on here. Dwayne just made the assertion that I am an RNC operative posing as an innocent. Is it required to have a black and white opinion on this matter?
I believe we have to do something about healthcare, and I have really appreciated most of the comments and perspective.
Eeeeeeeaasssy, Dwayne....I really do think that Madeline is on the legit, and truly wants to see both sides of the issue. Give her the benefit of the doubt on this one.
Incidentially, I just posted at my own blog my own concerns about the Dem health care bill.
The SmackDog Chronicles: When "Good As It Gets" Simply Isn't Good Enough: The Democrats, Health Care, And The Repudiation of Single Payer
As always, my opinions alone.
Anthony
@ Madeline July 18, 2009 6:28 PM
If you really are conflicted on the issue check out my last link.
There are only two sides on this issue in Congress those trying to get actual health for people and an Insurance Lobby that has been gearing up to keep their gravy train sucking the society dry like a tarantula with a lizard.
Anthony & Freedem
Whewww...thank you. Some friendly posters coming to my aid. I was starting to think everyone was going postal, LOL.
I appreciate the debate today and you are helping me! I'll be checking out some of these links.
Madeline-
The problem some of us are having is with your statement "do I really want the government making decisions about my health?"
Why do you believe an outrageous total lie peddled by dishonest insurance companies and their bought-and-paid-for members of Congress?
You make a valid point, my statement was a pretty broad, sweeping one.
To clarify, I am not implying that insurance companies are off the hook. And I never said that I believe what they say. I am fortunate that right now I don't have any health issues that need addressing, but believe me I hear about it from my best friend. She's self employed, and has a high deductible, high premium for what she says is crappy coverage. I'm trying to figure out why..is it our state that's specifically screwed up and there is limited competition? She's convinced that the Obama is going to do something...as if it's all about him alone doing something.
Back to my original statement, what I am really reacting to is my concern with the existing case studies in other countries, the U.K. for example. I think it was Marky who provided a candid account of his experience with their system. It sounds like it works rather well for the most part, based on his experience. However he did admit that there is the issue with "rationing", and so that was one of my concerns. I wasn't trying to be incendiary or anything. Maybe I shouldn't have said "convince me". I guess that set some people off.
Hi Madeline,
Let me discuss the comparative situation. It's not hard. The United States spends approximately twice as much per capita on health care as the second-most expensive country. Yet on just about every health indicator (longevity, infant mortality, disease-free longevity), we are way down in the league tables. That means that there is room for improvement. Now, if you look at the countries at the top of the league tables (mostly European), you see a variety of health care insurance and provision systems. But each and every one of them has universal access to health care, effective systems for delivering urgent care, compassion for the elderly, and some mechanisms for controlling costs. They vary from government-owned provision of care to single-payer insurance to regulated competition with public safety nets. You will find horror stories and success stories in every one of these countries, but the plural of anecdote is not evidence. The question is how much we are willing to do to get rid of American barriers to high-quality, cost-effective universally-accessible care. Principal among these barriers are the administrative and profit costs of insurers, profits of the drug companies (who cry costs of research but pay more for advertising prescription products than for research), and--yes--doctors (the minority, I believe) who provide care to line their pockets instead of to serve their patients. The tort system for malpractice also needs some reform (e.g., if there are punitive damages, these should go to the system and not the windfall victims).
@Jim
The common view of the Tort system as part of the problem is just another Insurance Company scam.
Actual awards are much less than the total damages caused as a lot less than a third of actual damages are actually filed, and every big award used a thousand times as much by the insurance company to justify high rates, even when it is reversed on appeal many years later.
I would definitely support a "no Fault" insurance that would provide actual just compensation for every bad outcome, with attention to those who made excessive use of it (either side)but at the moment Torts are the only accountability there is and it obviously needs to be stronger and not weaker.
@ Freedem,
"It could easily be built as the Swiss or Dutch "Single payer" plans where there was very strict or eliminated profits with none on basic care."
I've studied the Dutch health care system intensely. Definitely not true. Insurers in the Netherlands can be for-profit. Insurers in Switzerland, Germany, and Japan are banned from making profits however.
@npunwani
I am less knowledgeable about the Dutch than others but I understand that they are heavily regulated. I had apparently gotten the Swiss and Dutch mixed as I thought that the Swiss had some Profit and the Dutch all non-profit.
@the last two
I lived in the Netherlands for 12 years. They have competitive, regulated insurance (not single payer), and moved from employer-based (a la Germans) to the new system in 2006. The insurance companies must offer a basic basket of benefits for a fixed price. They can now compete by contracting with the doctors (that is, you can only go to doctors covered by your insurer--which really means that you get insurance from somebody who covers your doctor). The compete based on claimed quality of care, provision of things above the basic basket of goods, and general reputation. A year's worth of basic basket cost about $1600 in 2006. Small copayments, but nothing for major medical events. And things such as inpatient mental health care for children are 100% covered.
Jim said...
The tort system for malpractice also needs some reform
And/or maybe the regulators need to step up their regulation and actually discipline some people?
See:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-bad-eye-doctor-bd05-jul05,0,4426814.story
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Some of the solutions -- e.g., eliminating the tax exclusion of health benefits -- seem regressive to me. If that's how we're going to pay for *for-profit* health insurance it seems to me that we're just taxing the lower end of the population and transferring wealth to for-profit corporations. There seems to be a lot of steam over the idea of 'taxing the rich.' That idea has become so anathema in this country that even a fair-minded, progressive taxing of the rich elicits a kind of knee-jerk response about how that's "socialism" (or fill in the blank with some other hot button negative). I'm middle-class and am not opposed to paying more tax myself for a genuine benefit and improvement in healthcare coverage for everyone (and I already pay among the highest tax rates in the country because of my state and city residence). However, I would not be in favor of a tax structure to pay for health care, that ends up being regressive in the way that social security (the payroll) tax is. And it seems to me that eliminating the tax exclusion for healthcare benefits while at the same time making no other provision for a higher tax for the rich is simply a new tax on the poor through working and middle class taxpayers. Why is that okay, but taxing the rich isn't, leaving them, as they have been for the past 25 years, untouchable. I confess to favoring a public option, as well, since I think that for-profit health insurance companies ultimately have no interest in health care. By definition, as for-profit corporations, their first duty is to maximize profit for their shareholders.
@ kathw,
"Some of the solutions -- e.g., eliminating the tax exclusion of health benefits -- seem regressive to me."
Actually, eliminating that tax exclusion would be progressive.
Making expenditures on any particular good or service tax-deductible lowers the after-tax price from P, the price charged by the vendor, to (1-C)P, where C is the marginal tax rate the buyer pays on income and payroll taxes combined. In dollar terms the price reduction is larger for high-income employees in high marginal tax brackets than for lower-income workers.
Tomorrow's (Monday) NYT has an extensive article about the severe bi-partisan reservations voiced by the National Governors Association about the health care bill.
Apparently, the Governors gave Sebelius an earful today. True to form, Obama would leave states with big obligations and no money to pay for them. But, of course, it was all with the best intentions, to make the budget numbers look acceptable.
I wish Nate was taking bets on health care legislation. This grandiose abomination is d-e-d, dead.
kathw said...
Some of the solutions -- e.g., eliminating the tax exclusion of health benefits -- seem regressive to me.
Most of the proposals I've seen on this have a 'kick-in' level, where the tax only applies to those people whose plan is above a specific amount. That level varies from plan to plan. I've seen a couple of proposals of $500, but most kick in at a much higher rate ($750 to $1000 per month). Some propose taxing only those amounts above that 'kick-in' rate, some would tax all amounts from the first dollar to the last for all plans above the kick-in level per month.
Personally, I favor a somewhat lower kick-in level ($300 or so per month) with the tax applying only to that amount above the 'kick-in' rate. By making the threshold somewhat lower, if affects more people. With more people affected, it would help put a LOT of pressure on the capitalistic, greedy, insurance companies to hold down rates.
AND, any such legislation absolutely needs to make sure it is somehow indexed (up AND down) so there is not the gradual creep like what happened with the Minimum Alternative Tax.
I don't know what the index should be - maybe some index of wage rates?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Yall are so predictable
You are against this plan because it hurts unions the most which you liberal longs bend over backwards to support
"The erosion in Obama's overall rating on health care is particularly notable among political independents: While positive in their assessments of his handling of health-care reform at the 100-day mark of his presidency (53 percent approved and 30 percent disapproved), independents now are divided at 44 percent positive and 49 percent negative."
WE NEED HEALTH CARE REFORM. Looney LIberals shutup you are in real danger of destroying any plan from passing.
キャッシング
インプラント
ダンボール
水 通販
幼児教室
A片下載|成人影片下載|免費A片下載|日本A片|情色A片|免費A片|成人影城|成人電影|線上A片|A片免費看
米蘭情趣用品|情趣用品|情趣|飛機杯|自慰套|充氣娃娃|AV女優.按摩棒|跳蛋|潤滑液|角色扮演|情趣內衣|自慰器|穿戴蝴蝶|變頻跳蛋|無線跳蛋|電動按摩棒|情趣按摩棒|
The only reason the U.S. doesn't have Single-Payer Health Care is... Link
Call Congress and demand,
SINGLE-PAYER HEALTH CARE FOR ALL NOW!
SEMPER FI!
艾葳酒店經紀公司提供專業的酒店經紀, 飯局小姐,領檯人員,領台,傳播妹,或者想要到台北酒店、林森北路酒店,私人招待所,或者八大行業當酒店PT,酒店公關,酒店兼職,想去酒店上班, 日式酒店,制服酒店,ktv酒店,禮服店,整天穿得水水漂漂的禮服酒店,鋼琴酒吧當酒店領檯,酒店小姐,公關小姐??,還是想去制服店當上班小姐,水水們如果想要擁有打工工作、晚上兼差工作、兼差打工、假日兼職、兼職工作、學生兼差、兼差、打工兼差、日領工作、晚上兼差工作、酒店工作、酒店上班、酒店打工、兼職、兼差、兼差工作、酒店上班等,想了解酒店相關工作和特種行業內容,想找打工、假日兼職、兼差打工、或晚班兼職想擁有快速賺錢又有保障的工作嗎???又可以現領請找專業又有保障的艾葳酒店經紀公司!
艾葳酒店經紀是合法的公司工作環境高雅時尚,無業績壓力,無脫秀無喝酒壓力,高層次會員制客源,工作輕鬆,可日領、現領。
一般的酒店經紀只會在水水們第一次上班和領薪水時出現而已,對水水們的上班安全一點保障都沒有!艾葳酒店經紀公司的水水們上班時全程媽咪作陪,不需擔心!只提供最優質的酒店打工,酒店上班,酒店打工環境、上班條件給水水們。心動嗎!? 趕快來填寫你的酒店上班履歷表
水水們妳有缺現金、有卡債、缺錢卡奴的煩腦嗎?想到日本留學日本打工嗎?妳是工讀生找工作??想要擁有高時薪又輕鬆的夜間兼職工作,打工機會和,假日打工,兼職工作日領假日打工的機會嗎??想實現夢想卻又缺錢沒錢嗎!??整天還在煩腦如何賺錢有什麼賺錢方法,和賺錢最快方法!?,想要打工,日領工作,短期打工,兼差工作,打工兼差工作嗎!?,
請加入我們艾葳酒店經紀公司工作單純輕鬆”高時薪”又可日領徵想要當傳播妹,上班小姐,酒店兼差,酒店兼職,歡迎學生打工,!!!
加入我們實現夢想就從現在開始^__^
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
菲
梵,
Post a Comment