7.29.2009

Obama, Democrats Flunking Health Care Sales Pitch

As I've made clear on a couple of occasions, I think there has generally been too much panic over the process of getting a health care reform bill before the Congress. Given a bill as expensive and complicated as this one, and the number of disparate constituencies both within and outside the Democratic Party, it is not surprising that the details are taking some time to negotiate. Efficient negotiating processes necessarily will involve a lot of brinksmanship, necessarily will tend to be resolved at the last minute, and necessarily will have their up days and down days along the way.

The one thing that might have sent things down a different course is if President Obama had tried to preempt the negotiations by taking a more hands-on approach and placing a particular bill before the Congress. I had thought this was a good idea, although the Beltway conventional wisdom would disagree, and there would certainly be risks to the White House in trying to loop the Congress out of the process. We'll probably never know who was right. But given that the White House didn't take that course, everything that has proceeded since has been fairly normal.

There are also debates about health care, however, taking place outside of Washington, in living rooms and convention halls and bowling alleys all across America. These debates will come to take on more import as members of Congress return home for the August recess and begin to speak with their constituents. I do not think the Democrats have been holding their ground in these sorts of debates. In fact, I think they are losing them rather badly.

There is a long history of support for the concept of major health care reform, something that has not really changed to this day. As recently as last week, a USA Today/Gallup poll found 56 percent in support of Congress passing a "major" health care reform bill this year, versus just 33 percent opposed.

However, that does not mean the particular bills being debated by the Congress are popular. Since Memorial Day, there have been ten polls that asked whether the public supported what was identified as the Obama, Democratic, or Congressional health care "plan". I put "plan" in quotation marks because there still isn't "a" plan; instead the Congress is debating between several different plans. With that said, what the public thinks of as the Obama/Democratic plan has been steadily gaining opposition:



The obvious thing to point to is the increase in the number who say they are opposed to the Democratic "plan". What may be just as important, however, is that the Democratic plan was never was all that popular to begin with. A GQR poll back at the end of May put support at only 46 percent -- although then, just 33 percent were opposed. The Democrats, indeed, may not have recognized early enough that some persuasion was going to be required in order to get a majority of the public on board. And they have since lost their plurality. The support numbers have held basically steady -- the problem is that virtually all of the undecideds have come around to oppose the plan.

About a month ago, Stan Greenberg and James Carville, who were bystanders in the Clinton administration when the 1993-94 health care effort failed, put out a memo outlining five things that Obama and the Democrats would have to do in order to sell health care. Let's evaluate their performance on each of these five planks, and assign it a letter grade:

1. Voters need to hear clearly what changes health care reform will bring. Never losing health insurance when you lose a job or get sick, power shifted from insurance companies to people, reduced costs for you and your family, business and country.
The key adjective in the above statement is "clearly". It certainly does not seem to me that there's been much clarity in the Democrats' explanations of what health care reform will mean for the average American -- how can there have been when key elements of the plan are still being debated? Grade: F.
2. Build a narrative around taking power away from the insurance companies and giving it to people.
There's been some of this from rank-and-file Democrats, but very little from Obama, who seems strangely resistant to populist rhetoric. I'd thought, frankly, this was one of the real advantages that Democrats had going into the legislative process: big business is very unpopular because of the economic collapse, and there might even have been some way to parlay negative sentiments about AIG -- an insurance company -- into skepticism about the motivations of insurers in general. But we haven't seen very much of this from the highest-profile Dems. Grade: D+.
3. The president and reform advocates have to explain concretely the changes that will mean lower costs.
There's been a lot of assertion of this, but then, there's that key modifier, "concretely". And the Democrats don't seem to be winning this argument. I know the Rasmussen polls have been pretty bearish on health care reform (and most other Democratic initiatives) in general, but their numbers on cost control are especially poor -- only 23 percent expect the cost of health care to go down under the Democratic proposals, versus 53 percent who expect it to go up.

It's not very difficult to understand why the public thinks as they do. They hear about cost control -- and then, they hear that the impact on the deficit is going to be a trillion dollars. Talk about cognitive dissonance. What Obama and the Democrats probably need to do is to delineate the two parts of the proposal: acknowledge that creating a guarantee of universal coverage will cost money, and laud it as a worthy goal -- a moral imperative, even. Then explain that the other parts of the bill will save money, although not quite enough to offset the costs of providing universal coverage. Maybe you need some Ross Perot-style charts and graphs to do this.

I think the public is sophisticated enough to comprehend this argument, and I think that it might be a winner. In this month's Kaiser Foundation tracking poll, 45 percent started out saying that $1 trillion is "about the right amount" or "too little" to be spending on health care, versus 42 percent saying "too much". When, however, Kaiser stipulated that "spending this amount would mean nearly everyone in the U.S. would have health insurance coverage", support rose to 57 percent. This argument was more persuasive to people than a another one Kaiser advanced about reducing long-term costs.

The White House clearly concluded somewhere along the way that arguments about cost containment were more persuasive than arguments about universal coverage. The problem, again, is that the arguments about cost containment won't make any sense to people unless you're also selling the arguments about universality -- not when the bill has a $1 trillion price tag. Grade: F.
4. Show all voters and seniors that there are benefits for them, including prescription drugs.
This probably has to count as another failure. Plans for health care reform are not very popular with seniors. Obama has talked in passing about closing the Medicare Part D "donut hole", but it hasn't been a central focus of the debate, nor is it clear if this will be addressed in whatever bill ultimately comes out of Congress. Having some kind of "prize" to show to seniors could be a big help. Grade: D-.
5. All of these points should be made with the dominant framework that continuing the status quo is unacceptable and unsustainable.
This is the argument we've heard most frequently from Democrats and one that they're probably winning. Indeed, all the Republican talk about the need for "bipartisan" reform somewhat reinforces this point: there are very few people will to go on record describing the status quo as acceptable.

However, none of this will necessarily encourage the public to have much confidence in the particular solution to the status quo that the Democrats are advancing. Winning this point, in other words, is a necessary condition for the passage of health care reform, but hardly a sufficient one. With that said, Democrats should probably be making more of the fact that Republicans have yet to offer their own version of health care reform. Grade: B+.

* * *

Overall, that works out to a grade point average of1.06, or a letter grade of a straight 'D'. And that frankly seems generous when looking at the situation more holistically. If this were a pass-fail class, the Democrats would probably deserve a failing grade.

The strategy from here, at least, seems relatively clear (although "clear" is not the same thing as "easy"). Firstly, the Democrats need a plan that will be the focal point of their sales efforts. It doesn't necessarily need to be the plan that will eventually be voted upon by the Congress, but it does need to have specific answers on key details like the public option, the employer mandate, and the funding mechanism. Until the Democrats have a plan, they are unlikely to gain ground with the public on health care reform. This, by the way, is why it is potentially a significant setback if the House in fact does not vote on health care before the August recess -- far more so than if the Senate hadn't voted. If the House approved a health care bill, that would give Democrats a plan to talk about through the recess, regardless of what the Senate chose to do later on. But without either chamber having approved a plan, they'll continue to be drowned in a sea of process stories.

If and when the Democrats are at the stage where they have a plan to frame the discussion, then President Obama needs to give a speech. Not a town-hall forum, and not a press conference. And not multiple speeches. A speech. A "big" speech, and probably a somewhat long speech. A make-or-break speech in prime time on a busy television night. Preferably one from the Oval Office, or perhaps in front of a joint session of Congress -- not some bullsh*t at a steel mill in Toledo. This is not as risky as it sounds, since the President is very good at delivering big speeches. But he's probably only going to get one shot.

Until then, I don't think Obama can go completely into hiding, but there is definite risk of overexposure. The President is not as popular now as he was a few months ago, and he's being associated with a still-unformed health care "bill" that definitely isn't all that popular and in fact may be dragging his numbers down. It might be better for the President to preserve some of that political capital and to rely on some of the more persuasive members of Congress, Joe Biden, Katheelen Sebelius, and under ideal circumstances the Clintons, to do his bidding for him in the meantime, in conjunction with a some grassroots action and a robust advertising effort.

The best thing that health care has going for it is that it doesn't necessarily need to be all that popular to pass. Congressional Democrats will simply have to acknowledge that, while the passage of a bill might not do them any favors in the near-term, its failure would almost certainly be much, much worse. But I'm not sure that Democrats had to find themselves in this lose-lose position in the first place. And I'm not sure that they can't find their way out of it, if they start to take more heed of what the public really needs to hear about their health care bill.

128 comments

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

It seems to me that Obama's been meeting points 1-3 with discrete groups (the AMA, nurses unions, and the AARP today) that will have a lot more power in selling the goals of this reform package to the public - not a plan, since Obama's still talking about a few major tent poles and trying to leave a lot of wiggle room to deal with Congress.

On the donut hole, I'm not sure how much there is to sell. The pharma side agreement is designed to help fill it, all the advocacy groups who really care about it (again, think AARP) know about the deal already, and Obama has in fact mentioned it repeatedly, including the press conference this week and with the AARP meeting today. People who it actually impacts know about the relief being brought, such as it is.

Also, although I can't report too much tangible progress on this, Organizing for America has been beating the drums to get people out and talking about healthcare. Maybe its a huge fail, or those conversations are just too below the radar to be registering.

Overall, I suspect the biggest source for not having a big public push on specifics is avoiding creating artificial litmus tests over points that eventually get negotiated away in merging all the bills. Like all the people on this site and others jumping up and down about how they'll never vote D again if the package only includes co-ops, elimination of pre-existing condition exclusions and the first effort at serious rate regulation rather than a government run "public option." I'm guessing the administration doesn't want to have that cause the whole package to blow up.

Or the brilliant campaign staff of Obama/Axelrod/Gibbs et al have collectively gone stupid in the last few months.

Wolf of Aquarius said...

I've been following this all very closely but if a pollster asks me what I think of health care reform, I wouldn't know how to answer. I oppose the plan from the Senate finance committee but support the House bill. And given all of the stories coming out about lobbyist access to the very people writing the bill (esp. Max Baucus), I don't know whether I can trust the Congressional leaders not to sell out.

And it really ticks me off that Congress is going on recess in the middle of putting together this important bill. It shows an astonishing lack of concern for the American people.

tremayne said...

Very nice post. My question: does Rahm Emanuel work for Obama or for his old blue-dog buddies in the House? You would think with Emanuel and Biden as his 1 and 2 advisors Obama could twist the arms of recalcitrant members of Congress. Pathetic....60% of the Senate, 59% of the House and an electoral blow-out for Obama and he can't get the bill he wants through?

dorsk188 said...

The fact that there are no less than three (maybe four, I lost track) different plans in the Senate has been fatal in this whole affair. Especially because the Baucus and Conrad bills are such a mess because of "bipartisanship", they also happen to be the versions that are getting the most political traction.

It's been said before. Obama over-learned from the Clinton experience. He needed to be involved in (at least) the Senate formulation of the bill.

His press conference was an embarrassment because he couldn't talk about the plan in detail, it's probably for the best that it's already forgotten.

I know something will get passed, but I suspect it will be so watered down and so expensive that when the GOP runs against it, they'll get support for it. All the more reason for Rahm to start mailing some dead fish to some Senators. I don't know if Obama has the influence to pull enough votes for a genuinely good bill, but it's crunch time. If he thought he could save some political capital for an energy bill, then he's sorely delusional. As much as it pains me to say it, climate change legislation has to wait: and if they get a good health care bill out, maybe they'll have more Dems in 2011 for the rest of their agenda. (This post is making me sick to my stomach. I miss my Hope and Change.)

Walker said...

Refreshing good and even-handed article by Nate!

Even though I am against these health care reform efforts, politically I totally agree with Nate that Obama and the congressional Democrats have to settle on a concrete bill pronto and start selling it.

Footstep said...

Nate,

I have often thought that Pres. Obama's disdain for catchphrases and slogans harms him in these kinds of policy debates. It was something that Hillary Clinton was a master at: get some kind of clever phrase out there that either frames your opponent as you want or advances your agenda. Something that rings in you ears.

Of course, what Obama showed during his long contest with Clinton was that slogans can lead to histrionics, whereas the calm course can ultimately shine brighter. That is all very well, but what if you had both a calm Obama and a few handy catchphrases in the healthcare debate.

The Republicans are masters of noisy catchphrases over policy, and that is what so many people end up hearing: "worried about all the spending" "governmnent control of healthcare" - it is always the distorted Republican talking-points that the media and wider public pick up on.
Why?

Because, however false or shallow or dishonest, their catchphrases stir the emotions (not the head) and are easy to remember. There is a gut reaction. The news networks can pick the soundbites up. Yes, the GOP appeals to the lowest basest emotions, but their strategy has worked time and again.

What are the Democratic catchphrases in the healthcare debate? Try to recite one. There are none. President Obama and the Democrats could tap Hillary's talent for a few classic one-liners in the healthcare debate. Because a catchphrase when you're wrong ie "gas tax holiday" is considerably different than a catchphrase when you are right ie healthcare.

Jeff said...

"not some bullsh*t at a steel mill in Toledo"

THANK you.

shiloh said...

OK, as I said in the last thread, I'm no health care expert but Obama will either get a good plan or no plan at all. He will not sell out on health care, because this is his legacy legislation, either do it right or don't bother.

And yes there's a reason health care reform started w/FDR and Truman and still hasn't materialized ie Reps don't want reform and don't care and lobbyists have taken over Washington the past 30/40 years making it impossible to get important things done ie Bacchus just got re-elected and he's the lobbyists #1 Dem whore.

Having said all this, if the only way to pass good legislation is w/a simple majority in both houses, so be it or not at all.

Again (((if))) if a "good" health care bill passes by hook or by crook this is all that matters and it will be Obama's final exam using Nate's grading scale. ;)

The one big problem, if it doesn't pass the Dems can't blame the party of No!!! because they control both chambers and the presidency, so yea, this is the Dems Waterloo. They need 217 votes in congress and 51 in the senate. Don't think the party of No!!! will filibuster, anyway if the Dems can't get their shit together it won't matter.

Since Obama is a man w/a great historical perspective he should read up on how LBJ twisted arms and read the riot act to certain senators in order to get the 1964/1965 Civil Rights Acts passed. He should talk to Dem senators individually and ask them if they want to be part of history or a schmuck! As Adm. Halsey said to Adm. Nimitz before the 'Battle of Midway' "When you are in command, command!"

Nobody cares about the why's and wherefore's, "we" only care about results!

ciao

p.s. Adm. Ray Spruance was in command during the Battle of Midway and my first ship in the USN was the U.S.S. Spruance DD-963, I digress.

carry on ...

Quixote said...

"Until the Democrats have a plan, they are unlikely to gain ground with the public on health care reform."

Yeah, that's what it comes down to.

The Democratic Party has a presidency, a legislative supermajority, a golden crisis/opportunity, and reasonably good public support, and still the so-called leadership hems and haws and searches for a spine (hint: check your friendly neighborhood lobbyist's briefcase).

Make some decisions and run with them. Act like you've won something.

markymark said...

I don't see this as a lose lose position for the Demoratic Party. In fact its clearly, in my view, a big win or a big lose for Democrats. Get a reasonable healthcare bill passed, take credit for it and move on, or fail to get a healthcare bill passed, have that failure folded in with an unpopular stimulus bill, and lose big time in 2010. I mean without a decent healthcare bill, what are the Democrats going to be able to run on come 2010? 'We know we didn't do much last time, but this time we will do better' is hardly a catchy election slogan.

I think it would be enourmously damaging for the Democrats to f*ck *p healthcare reform for a second time in 20 years. I think that is something that those who would obstruct and obfuscate need to think about.

PeteKent said...

Emotional appeals are not working. These plans do not work. A government takeover of healthcare is ill-advised.

People have woken up to the threat of ObamaCare to their health and healthcare. 80% are happy with what they got and getting happier with it now that the details are seeping out about what Obama and the Libs are trying to do.

That is a strong, strong headwind.

If there is healthcare reform at all this year, it will be a shadow of what is on the table now.

It's time to set healthcare reform aside and try and really put some of the millions who are out of work (hello!) back to work.

petekent01 (on twitter)

shiloh said...

PeteKent said...

blah, blah, blah
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


PK, You're still here ?!? It's Over ~ Go Home! Go!

J. Scott said...

The strategic decision was made months ago by the Obama team to allow the legislative process to play itself out realtive to health care reform. Obama trying to force a path would have been death to the entire effort. For reasons that seem obvious to me.

And since the Democratic Majorities in Congress are so huge, its no wonder the Dems can't come together on it. Which is why their message seems so disjointed.

We don't really have a Democratic Party and a Republican Party anymore anyway. We have Progressive, Moderate, and Conservative. Its simply not been made official yet.

But that's on the way if a strong public option and employer mandates are not passed.

KathyF said...

I thought you were maybe exaggerating about the president being over-exposed, but then I just read this at Politico:

"Then, he hops on his plane and heads to Bristol, Va., at another town hall meeting at a Kroger Supermarket." That is apparently not meant as sarcasm.

Jeff said...

The President is great at selling himself, but not particularly good at selling his policies. Almost all of the latter have seen their polling numbers drop. The big Cheney-Obama face off on Gitmo went for Darth Vader "big time". Now he's losing the health care debate, and looking like a fool with this Gates business. His press conferences are information-free zones.

In a not unrelated development, NPR is confirming Rasmussen's finding of a GOP lead (or tie) in the generic congressional vote. But I suppose they are a right wing operation too?

Walker said...

Here's something to gnaw on today.

What will be the long term consequences of Obama not getting any of his core agenda through congress in 2009 despite super-majorities in the House and Senate and a pliant, expectant press?

That would be comprehensive health care reform (with a public option), cap and trade, and card check.

I mean, does he even bother running again in 2012?

What he would be facing in 2010 if there is nothing to show for his first year in office is crushed public expectations, probable super tax increases needed to pay for a portion of the explosive deficits grown larger on his watch, and the likelihood that things "on the ground" are worse in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

So, we would have:

No health care reform...

No energy policy...

No banking regulation reform...

No card check...

Huge, monster deficits...

Double digit unemployment...

Stagflation as a result of poor fiscal policies...

Still in Iraq and Afghanistan...

Possession of nukes in NK and Iran...

shiloh said...

Jeff said...

In a not unrelated development, NPR is confirming Rasmussen's finding of a GOP lead (or tie) in the generic congressional vote. But I suppose they are a right wing operation too?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Obama was 30 pts. behind HRC in Iowa. He won. Hillary came in third.

Polls are just a snapshot in time. But keep hoping/praying for Obama to fail, the party of No's !!! meme.

Reagan was at 35% job approval rating March 1983. He beat Mondale 59/41.

Polls are just a snapshot in time, btw, DNC is out raising the RNC and individual Dems are out raising Reps. cheny/rove/bush has deflated the Whig party!

Polls are just a snapshot in time and unfortunately generics don't run against each other actual candidates who have to raise money and actually campaign run against each other, like macaca allen who just had to keep his mouth shut and he would have beat James Webb, but noooooooooooooooooo lol

Polls are just a snapshot in time and since you went off-topic ...

Oh, btw, did I mention the 2010 election is a year and a half away and Obama is president another 3+ years no matter what, hmm probably a couple more Supreme Court nominees, I digress and generics don't run against each other, actual candidates w/names like palin, bachmann, blackburn, sanford, ensign, vitter, perry, sessions, cantor, boehner etc. have to raise money and campaign.

Also did I mention polls are just a snapshot in time and the Whig er party of No! will have to have a rational message the American voters can trust and after (8) years of cheney/rove/bush their trust factor is subterranean!

If he's a miserable failure like Bush, we'll re-elect him anyway!

am I still on topic?

ciao

Walker said...

Shiloh, the idea that Obama can rekindle the ferver and excitement he generated in late 2007 and 2008 is a pipe dream.


He's like a high school romance gone sour. What seemed so dreamy and magical at first, with time, is revealed to be banal, kind of embarrassing, and annoying. "Yes, we can!" will become the "That's what she said!" of 2010.

Reagan came back from the brink in 1984 because, 1) the economy roared back under hit watch, and 2) he had some significant legislative accomplishments he could point too.

Russ said...

Part of the success of the Republican attacks on health care is the lies they tell that resonate with people who do not follow the issue closely. We see claims of forced abortions or state funded abortions, claims about bureaucratics making medical decision, false claims about how long the waits are in Kingston Ontario, claims about government encouraged euthenasia.

The republican party has chosen to deploy a lie machine because they have no ideas to offer. The strategy to win this battle in the court of public opinion must also include hammering Repubs credibility every time they lie on this issue, and hammering them hard until no one cares to listen to them.

Oh...and after the recent British offensive things are better on the ground in A-stan.

Walker said...

Funny, with Obama at the helm, the Democrats really are the Party of No!

No comprehensive health care reform, no energy policy with teeth, no card check for the unions, no banking regulation reform bill, no...

shiloh said...

Walker said...

Still in Iraq and Afghanistan...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Just like the Vietnam War will always be a 100% Dem war, so to will the Iraq/Afghanistan wars always be a 100% cheney/bush/whig war, btw what few Whigs er Reps who are left in congress actually support Obama's Iraq and Afghanistan policies!

Won't waste my time on the rest of your nonsense and please can you frickin' trolls stay on topic.

Oh that's right, trolls, by nature, are always 100% off-topic!

Hence, ergo, therfore they are trolls w/nothing but negativity to share reflecting their party of No's !!! meme.

Vote for me, things won't change, but I'm not as bad as the other guy.

hmm, whom do I respect more, palin who flat out quit and blamed the media and whined until the cows came home or the rank and file negativity of the dwindling Whig party ... tough call lol

ciao

shiloh said...

OK, I'm thru feeding the trolls lol, try to muddle thru without me. ;)

ciao

btw, I was smilin' on Nov. 4th and I'm still smilin' as the party of Lincoln continues to implode!

carry on ...

Walker said...

Shiloh, I may be a Troll, but gosh darn it, I am the most beautiful, resplendent, on message, magical, Keebler smackin', club swingin' Troll you ever did see!!!

This Troll brings the FURY!!

While myself and the other Trolls are gleefully dancing in our magical cave dwellings, stomachs full of minced mutton and mead, you and the other Obamabots are weeping over crushed hopes and dreams, election night 2008 confetti still in your hair, a listless "Yes, we can..." still murmuring, ever dimmer, from your Senator Franken-esque liver lips.

How do those tears taste, Shiloh?

Are they bitter tears?

verity025 said...

Glad to see this post, Nate! I think you've hit the nail on the head. The Democratic messaging on healthcare reform has been muddled, at best, and at worst, nonexistent. Democrats should mount an aggressive push to highlight the positive changes they are making.

I was just recently mulling how the results of healthcare reform polling seem to depend heavily on framing. Certain buzz words can skew the poll findings. [Republicans are keenly aware of this.] But, I think the volatility in the findings is due more to the lack of understanding among the general public than anything else. I was reading an article in which Obama said something to the effect of how "clearly" everyone understands that we need healthcare reform. My thought was that, "No, CLEARLY everyone doesn't understand why we need reform now."

The Democrats don't really need to compel voters to support their efforts. They really need to just EXPLAIN exactly what they're doing (or working to accomplish) and how that will ultimately benefit individuals. From the White House down, the clear messaging and cogent explanations have been in short supply. I think clarity on the issue would help fill the void that the opposition is filling with fear.

Walker said...

All this talk of Trolls has me thinking…

If Republicans are Trolls, Democrats are Elves…

Think of it, Elves are ephemeral, dainty, prone of whim and fantasy, vaguely asexual, thin on account of their strict vegan diets, easily bruised by reality, more comfortable killing from a distance with bows and arrows… I imagine elves caper and prance to “house music” and “the latest single from The Decemberists”…

Trolls, in comparison, are earthy, tied to the ground, gritty and hard-scrabble, menacing, stout and strong, with sinewy, leathery forearms, and bristle-thatch facial hair…womenfolk are easily charmed by their manly musk…they are comfortable with blue collar work and subsist on salted meats and stout beer… Trolls rock out to hard metal…and repose with the latest copy of Guns & WarHammer whilst Hank Williams tinny voice pulses from overhead, but discretely placed speakers…

I would rather be a Troll, myself…

Oh, and Ron Paul voters are gremlins….

joel said...

The democrats act like they are still the minority party and don`t want to offend the republicans.
I expect they will pass some sort of healthcare bill but it won`t be anything to be proud of.
Obama is around the same approval as Bush was at this point of his presidency and he seems to be holding on to the people who voted for him but 2010 is a long way off and being poll happy at this point is useless.
As far as 2012 goes the GOP has no electable candidate as far as I can see. Assuming the country is in no worse shape than it is now, I would expect Obama to get re-elected. the people don`t like to fire their presidents except under really bad times.
Also at this poinnt in the Clinton adm. he was already pegged as a one termer. how did that work out for President Dole? Also keep in mind the GOP has lost the popular vote 4 out of the last 5 elections with less white voters every 4 years.

Vern said...

Good post, but if Carville's 5 points outline the "offense" of the sell, how about grading against the conservative attack or "defense" side of the sell. For example, grade against Peggy Noonan's "internal Q and A" that voters are supposedly having:

Will whatever health care bill is produced by Congress increase the deficit? “Of course.” Will it mean tax increases? “Of course.” Will it mean new fees or fines? “Probably.” Can I afford it right now? “No, I’m already getting clobbered.” Will it make the marketplace freer and better? “Probably not.” Is our health care system in crisis? “Yeah, it has been for years.” Is it the most pressing crisis right now? “No, the economy is.” Will a health-care bill improve the economy? “I doubt it.”

Brad said...

The second point assumes that Obama wants to take power away from the insurance companies. What's being proposed would do exactly the opposite. By creating a captive market with NO public option at all, it would put the insurance companies in an even more powerful position than they already are. It could even be a killing blow to the American working class. It's that bad.

If Obama signs a bill that includes an individual mandate without a strong public option, he is a fucking TRAITOR.

Bart DePalma said...

Nate:

1. Voters need to hear clearly what changes health care reform will bring. Never losing health insurance when you lose a job or get sick, power shifted from insurance companies to people, reduced costs for you and your family, business and country.

The key adjective in the above statement is "clearly". It certainly does not seem to me that there's been much clarity in the Democrats' explanations of what health care reform will mean for the average American...


These are the Dems' talking points and they have been repeated clearly an nauseum. The spin is failing because the talking points are all transparent lies apart from one, which does not apply to most folks.

The power in the Dems plans will shift from the insurance companies to the government, not the people. The insured will have less choice in their health insurance after private insurance is put out of business. When the Dems speak of saving money, they are talking about government rationing of health care.

Only morons think that providing additional medical care for 30 to 40 million people will save money.

Most folks are insured and do not lose insurance if they get sick or change jobs. Thus, this argument is not speaking to the majority.

2. Build a narrative around taking power away from the insurance companies and giving it to people.

I'd thought, frankly, this was one of the real advantages that Democrats had going into the legislative process: big business is very unpopular because of the economic collapse, and there might even have been some way to parlay negative sentiments about AIG -- an insurance company -- into skepticism about the motivations of insurers in general. But we haven't seen very much of this from the highest-profile Dems.


Polls repeatedly show that a heavy majority of folks are satisfied with their own private medical care. AIG bonuses may get the ACORN folks riled up, but they do not say anything concerning health insurance.

3. The president and reform advocates have to explain concretely the changes that will mean lower costs.

There's been a lot of assertion of this, but then, there's that key modifier, "concretely". And the Democrats don't seem to be winning this argument.


The Dems cannot be honest here.

Extending greater care to 30-40 million new patients will cost well over a trillion dollars.

The only way for an insurer - private or public - to substantially lower costs is to limit care. Electronic medical records only provide marginal savings and nothing close to the amount necessary to eliminate health care inflation or pay for all the additional patients.

The GOP is winning this argument because all they have to do is point to the mortality rates in Canada and England under government health care rationing.

If the Dems are so confident about being able to lower medical costs, then have them offer a savings only plan. If the savings materialize, then they can talk about spending a Trillion dollars on more heath care.

Robert Reich correctly noted on NPR last week that there are no cost savings under the current bills because the Dems have promised the health care providers there will be not cuts in services or compensation in order to get them on board.

Did you think that AMA and the drug companies support these bills because they enjoy losing money? Hardly. They see another trillion dollars in income from new government health insurance subsidies paying for additional patients.

the asshole formerly known as assmole said...

Stop boring me Nate and get back to doing your funky projection things.

Dwight said...

Since Obama is a man w/a great historical perspective he should read up on how LBJ twisted arms and read the riot act to certain senators in order to get the 1964/1965 Civil Rights Acts passed. He should talk to Dem senators individually and ask them if they want to be part of history or a schmuck! As Adm. Halsey said to Adm. Nimitz before the 'Battle of Midway' "When you are in command, command!"

How public was LBJ's arm twisting at the time? Also the timing on it. Baucus gets this turd out of his system now, can make a show that he "tried" something different (to any bankrollers he might be in the pocket of), and when push comes to shove he bends to the bully pulpit. It is hard to twist arms to vote for some specific thing when there just isn't a specific thing there.

About going straight to a single insurer for basic medical coverage. That isn't particularly feasible because it involves overnight pulling a lot (not necessarily all, mind you) but a lot of the revenue out of the insurance market. Ok, they have created their own demise through their business practices, hey market forces at work. ;) But still, offering them the chance to get their shit together, get organized, and run a more morally justifiable business is really the appropriate way.

Charlie said...

2. Build a narrative around taking power away from the insurance companies and giving it to people.

2.a. Make the obvious and sound moral argument. Why do I not see "Who would Jesus Insure?" (yes, it should be "whoM", but meh) bumper stickers all over the place? I wonder if the Former [Technical] President George Bush, Jr. could answer that question? There is a moral angle to this question that cannot be ignored. As Nobel Laurette Teh Kruggmeister cogently summarized the other day on his blog, the Free Market plainly fails in the instance of health care.

One word I like to use, which may be effective is "Civilized." Universal Health Care (with some sort of public option) is the civilized nations do. Every advanced, industrial nation on earth has universal coverage; none would ever seriously consider getting rid of it altogether.

Follow the money. This is Hugeass Insurance fighting tooth and nail to maintain massive profits. They are spending gobs and gobs of money ($1M per day? or something?) to keep the current broken system intact. How much effort would one require to explain why?

Tap [former Cygna PR VP and "Sicko" opponent] Wendell Potter as the face of the campaign for Health Care Reform. His interviews on Moyers and Democracy Now! were sobering and stirring.

In the same vein, publicize the huge free health care fair in SW Virginia (just happened) which triggered Mr. Potter's conversion from the Dark Side. Thousands and thousands of good Americans traveled thousands of miles just for the opportunity to have simple, preventative care (and more dire attention), otherwise denied them under the current system. Showcase this. Have Wendell Potter tell his story about this.

Dwight said...

The GOP is winning this argument because all they have to do is point to the mortality rates in Canada and England under government health care rationing.

This one?

Oh, I get it. It is actually the "health care rationing" that is the key right, and scream it loud enough that people won't look further. As someone mentioned, sloganeering has been their strong suit. Someone suggested Hillary would be better adept at all this because she was good at sloganeering. Only she got whipped last time trying to play their game.

Dwight said...

Note to Bart DePalma on reading that chart. It is not good thing for the USA to have managed to pull off a "higher" ranking than Cuba.

nova_middle_man said...

Nice flipflop again Nate

Ever stop to think its the policy thats the problem

I will go point by point with my comments in brackets

1. Voters need to hear clearly what changes health care reform will bring [that would be a good idea]. Never losing health insurance when you lose a job or get sick [Cobra is when you lose a job, you don't lose coverage when you get sick thats what insurance is for], power shifted from insurance companies to people [what??? yeah right choice will be reduced under the current proposal and there will only be the goverment option within five years], reduced costs for you and your family [not for most], business [nope] and country [you have got to be kidding me].

2. Build a narrative around taking power away from the insurance companies and giving it to people

[What does this mean. Currently at most workplaces there are at least 2-3 options then in almost areas there are at least 5+ companies and 50+ options. The way the bill is currently drafted. Within five years at most companies there will only be the government option and its only a matter of time before there isn't any choice at all]

3. The president and reform advocates have to explain concretely the changes that will mean lower costs. [This would be a good idea agree grade F] [This is also one of the only areas for common groud and is something that must be done]

4. Show all voters and seniors that there are benefits for them, including prescription drugs [Lofty goal my suspicion and America agrees is that there will be no benefits for people with insurance and thats a majority of Americans]

5. All of these points should be made with the dominant framework that continuing the status quo is unacceptable and unsustainable. [I agree with this one 100% the Democratic approach to this point leaves much to be desired and from a purely political perspective why should Republicans offer a plan when Democrats to this point are continuously shooting themselves in the foot]

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

Don't know if its coincidence or just further proof of Nate's psychic powers, but here's a link to a story about the O team rolling out the pitch for everyone who has private insurance and wonders how it will be better under reform:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/07/29/obama_to_offer_eight-point_arg.html?wprss=44

This appears to be a new, broader based addition to the audience specific pitches that have been made for months now.

BTW, I just got a letter from my ins. co. asking (for at least the 4th time since they've covered me) if I have other coverage, despite no evidence that anything in my life has changed. Why? B/c under the terms of the group plan, if I don't get the letter back to them in 10 days from the date on the letter(never mind I got it a couple of days before that deadline and they only mention this on the very bottom of the letter) they can reject the claim in its entirety, stiffing me for a routine visit they've paid for several times before. This is the essence of the crappy, rationed care system we have right now - they'd rather screw you out of a payment on a technicality than provide the care you are entitled to. Oh, and its the plan that covers all state employees, so its not like its a fly by night, low cost alternative.

nova_middle_man said...

You really need to read this article

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/24/news/economy/health_care_reform_obama.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009072410

Some exerpts

Freedom to choose what's in your plan????

The bills in both houses require that Americans purchase insurance through "qualified" plans offered by health-care "exchanges" that would be set up in each state. The rub is that the plans can't really compete based on what they offer. The reason: The federal government will impose a minimum list of benefits that each plan is required to offer.

Freedom to be rewarded for healthy living, or pay your real costs????

Under the Senate plan, insurers would be barred from charging any more than twice as much for one patient vs. any other patient with the same coverage. So if a 20-year-old who costs just $800 a year to insure is forced to pay $2,500, a 62-year-old who costs $7,500 would pay no more than $5,000.


Second, the bills would ban insurers from charging differing premiums based on the health of their customers. Again, that's understandable for folks with diabetes or cancer. But the bills would bar rewarding people who pursue a healthy lifestyle of exercise or a cholesterol-conscious diet. That's hardly a formula for lower costs. It's as if car insurers had to charge the same rates to safe drivers as to chronic speeders with a history of accidents.

Freedom to choose high-deductible coverage????


Hundreds of companies now offer Health Savings Accounts to about 5 million employees. Those workers deposit tax-free money in the accounts and get a matching contribution from their employer. They can use the funds to buy a high-deductible plan -- say for major medical costs over $12,000. Preventive care is reimbursed, but patients pay all other routine doctor visits and tests with their own money from the HSA account. As a result, HSA users are far more cost-conscious than customers who are reimbursed for the majority of their care.

The bills seriously endanger the trend toward consumer-driven care in general. By requiring minimum packages, they would prevent patients from choosing stripped-down plans that cover only major medical expenses. "The government could set extremely low deductibles that would eliminate HSAs," says John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis, a free-market research group. "And they could do it after the bills are passed."

Freedom to keep your existing plan????

The bill gives ERISA employers a five-year grace period when they can keep offering plans free from the restrictions of the "qualified" policies offered on the exchanges. But after five years, they would have to offer only approved plans, with the myriad rules we've already discussed. So for Americans in large corporations, "keeping your own plan" has a strict deadline. In five years, like it or not, you'll get dumped into the exchange. As we'll see, it could happen a lot earlier.

The outlook is worse for the second group. It encompasses employees who aren't under ERISA but get actual insurance either on their own or through small businesses. After the legislation passes, all insurers that offer a wide range of plans to these employees will be forced to offer only "qualified" plans to new customers, via the exchanges.

The employees who got their coverage before the law goes into effect can keep their plans, but once again, there's a catch. If the plan changes in any way -- by altering co-pays, deductibles, or even switching coverage for this or that drug -- the employee must drop out and shop through the exchange. Since these plans generally change their policies every year, it's likely that millions of employees will lose their plans in 12 months.

Dwight said...

About those matching HSA, if they are adequately funded then wouldn't they meet minimum standards and thus make it to the "approved" list, however the employee decided to split up the spending within their own self-directed fund?

Dwight said...

I think you might be missing the point here BTW. I believe this is to ensure that people have some sort of coverage on hand so they don't show up in an ER uncovered and no way to pay because they blew all their money on something else.

Entirely reasonable, no?

James said...

This criticism is unfair.

I think that the last few months have made clear that it was always going to be impossible for Obama to dictate one plan on Congress; there are simply too many permutations to be debated. Thus, we do not yet have a single "plan."

And without a "plan," it's virtually impossible for Obama and his party to sell it to the public. One cannot promote the details of a plan when each proposal on the table has significant differences. We don't even have a consensus yet whether there will be a public option.

All Obama could do is continue selling the public on a few key points, such as reducing costs and increasing coverage. Perhaps he could have done a better job of that, perhaps not. But I don't see how he could go around promoting anything more specific at this point.

Once the Democrats actually agree on something, then it will be fair to consider whether they are properly promoting it.

Jeff said...

Shiloh,
Snapshot in time, no doubt. It happens to be the time when most of his major initiatives, if they are to pass, will probably sink or swim. And I am not praying that Obama "fails". I want him to fail to pass policies that I think are destined to fail. Would that we had pole axes this idiotic stimulus bill, for instance.

As for the Reagan model, by all means that would be a nice path for Obama. Problem is this. He is favoring distribution over growth. There may be moral grounds for this, but there will be a cost to it. Reagan, for instance, won reelection by driving unemployment from 11.1% to 7.2 percent between 1981/2 and 1984. He slashed 5% off the unemployment rate. Obama needs to do something similar. But in my view he is not pursuing policies that are designed to have that effect. Reagan also slew a terrible bout of inflation. Obama's policies are in fact courting inflation.

Jason said...

Jeff, I may be wrong, but I believe unemployment was roughly at 7.1% when Reagan took office, so he didn't actually "slash" the unemployment rate from where it was when he took office, only from where it was in 1982-1983.

dsimon said...

nova_middle_man: You really need to read this article...

You've referenced that article on other threads, and it's been critiqued on those threads. Instead of just referencing it again, how about responding to the critiques? It's hard to have a debate when the same points are just reasserted over and over again.

What "plan" is the article talking about, since there are many plans on the table which differ in significant respects? It refers to an "Obama plan," but as Nate says in the post, there is no "plan" but a congressional debate among several different plans. The Senate Finance Committee hasn't even passed its version yet. So it seems a little early to declare what people would and wouldn't lose under those plans. And, of course, the article doesn't even think about mentioning any potential gains.

I think there are other problems with the article, which I've stated before. But you're smart enough to read critically on you own, so I won't rehash all the other criticisms.

Charlie said...

The GOP is winning this argument because all they have to do is point to the mortality rates in Canada and England under government health care rationing.

I think it has a lot more to do with what economists like to call The Bobbi Flekman Principle.

Jeff said...

Jason,
Incorrect. Unemployment hit nearly 10% in 1980. Reagan and Obama have nearly the same arc of a problem. High unemployment to begin with, rising several points in their first year. The question is whether Obama can replicate the big drop than Reagan's policies engineered.

Harper said...

I voted for Obama and I think the healthcare plan that Democrats on the hill are pushing sucks. One good thing for Obama is that he isn't pushing a particular bill. He has the chance to put himself on the line for a bill that is worth a damn, and DO THE RIGHT THING! With two structural changes, it could pass in a landslide:

1) Kill the employer tax exemption and make insurance an individual tax deduction
2) Tort Reform - cap the amount from lawsuits and reduce malpractice insurance that makes MDs salaries sky high.

lo9an said...

I find it all too funny that certain (538) Conservative commentators are writing the Democratic Party off in 2010 and beyond. While I am also frustrated at the Democrats' continual lack of courage and/or spine, I definitively understand that the Republican Party is simply holding on for dear life, specifically regarding health care. Moreover, for those that believe health care is perfectly fine and in no need of improvement, I'm sorry but you're wrong!

It's as if (these commentators believe) the GOP suddenly found an idea or solution to a problem. As far as I can tell, they haven't! And if you truly think the GOP is the necessary leadership to drive America out of this economic quandary, then again, I'm sorry but you're wrong!

I am interested in the GOP platform for 2010 however... could it be based on fear mongering once again!?!

Jason said...

Sorry, Jeff, but you are incorrect. Unemployment peaked at 7.8% in 1980. It stood at 7.5% in November of that year, when Carter lost re-election.

http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet

ajpuckett said...

I would say that the American people are flunking the health care reform debate. Given the god knows how many people using Medicare and the VA who don't even know that they are government programs, i.e. "socialized medicine", it comes as no surprise that their transient opinions are easily manipulated by the lying insurance company whores on the right. Dems should ignore the polls on this and not lose their nerve. Do the right thing, even if it's not popular, and even if it results in short-term electoral losses, because it will help the country and the party in the long term.

Richard said...

Here's my take as to why Obama can't sell the Democratic health care plan, it's because he isn't a very good liar. When he starts talking about how the public option will increase competition and how increasing the number of people with insurance will not increase the government costs of health care, you can just see it in his eyes and hear it in his voice that he's lying.

Jeff said...

Jason,
I stand corrected. I've gotten varying stats on this from seemingly reliable sources. The point still stands. High unemployment, spiking in the first year, and then . . . Obama has to follow Reagan's path to win, I think. His policies won't do it. They are redistributionist rather than growth oriented.

Davy said...

Wow, I just watched the normally unflappable Matt Lauer interview Michelle Malkin (I'm on the west coast). I don't know much about this Malkin but Matt had to reach deep to maintain composure after she released a complete stream of garbage about Prez. Obama. Normally, Lauer thanks a guest but this time; after a noticeable pause and with a look of incredulity on his face, he just essentially said (sic) 'well that was a lot of stuff you just said. This is Today'. [cue music - cut to commercial]

Priceless.

Also loved Governor Dean's guest hosting of MSNBC's Countdown last night with his insight to health care reform. Plus Jon Stewart's ability to get Bill Kristol; of all people, to admit that health care for soldiers was a decent form of of government run health care. Then Obama got in on the comedy action with the letter from a lady who said "I don't want socialized medicine, but leave my Medicaid alone". What a week.

I'd like to advocate a change in language regarding this debate. It's not really health care that needs to be reformed. The US has some of the finest health care around. It's PROVIDING for health care that needs to be addressed. I mean, really; aren't we talking about 'insurance reform'?

I really don't want a repeat of '93/'94. I was young, healthy, and unconcerned then. This needs to get done because I'm in my 40's now and have no insurance and after a few bad experiences, have no faith in corporate insurance.

Republicans have offered no plan because they don't want reform. The status quo helps them just fine: at my expense. They say "Mr. President, we can't afford to get health care wrong". Well, that ship sailed already. The translation I get is (paraphrasing) 'We can't afford you to rob our firmly emplaced troughs'.

I'm always amazed at how the Republican machine can dupe people with this McCarthystic vision of lackluster communist health care.

Agree with Nate that there is only one more shot at selling this pitch and I'm kinda glad that Obama has the month of August to figure it out. It's big, ugly, difficult to comprehend, and complicated. There are too many people who are desirous of gaming the system and maintaining the status quo who have members of congress in their pockets (I know, I know. Nate hates this argument). I do hope that Obama comes out in September with a compelling reason to accept the single payer system and not the co-op idea recently put forth as a Trojan Horse. And please, dear god, do not take any questions about the Professor Gates/Cambridge Police thing or any other off-topic. Stay on message. I can't believe how this has become such a distraction.

Hasn't this really become a discussion between 'guns and butter'? We all pay taxes. Aren't we just arguing over how to best allocate that money for the American people? Health care for all or military contracts to protect all of us (insured or not) from terrorists?

Kudos to Nate for pointing out the difference between British and Canadian health systems.

WV: fluperb. Existential state of being in an alternate fluniverse.

Jason said...

Jeff,

I assume you are advocating something along the lines of "supply-side" economics. While that may have made sense in 1980-1981, when the top tax rate was about 70%, I don't think it's relevant now when the top rate is only 35%. If tax cuts are the magic cure, why was growth during the Bush years so mediocre? Clinton had a much stronger economy, with higher tax rates.

Davy said...

@Pete Kent

It's not a government takeover of health care. You're one of the dupes I have previously referred to. It is an alternative option for Americans who don't have the luxury of employee assisted health care. That's what insurance companies fear the most; that the competition will offer us a better solution and they will have to become more lean and competitive. That's great news...For the American people!

@shiloh

So here's an irony. Wonder if Halsey would've made it to Midway if he'd had better health care? Just musing. I'm sure he had excellent health care and they probably didn't know a great deal about his skin condition. Besides, Spruance was obviously the right man for the job. Halsey struck me as a more 'all-in' poker player and I don't think that would have worked against Nagumo at Midway. Spruance knew where to park the fleet, whereas I suspect Halsey would've sailed recklessly into the breach.

Regardless; my respects for your service to the country aboard the Spruance.

nova_middle_man said...

Thanks for the honesty Davy

People are usually motivated by self-interest

Most people do not see any benefits under the plan just more government spending and less choice and not even everyone covered = massive failure (in current democratic house form)

That article talked about the Dem house and senate plan as of mid July.

Its cites specfics which is alot more than most of the seat of the pants and platitues on here.

Heres a bone for Obama. Its taken from tax cut debate. Take a typical family of 4 with Median income and insurance from their work and show how much better off they will be under any currently discussed proposed democratic led plan. If you can do that it would do alot of pushing the ball foward.

Davy said...

Also, If there were one reason that I'd hope for this filibuster-proof congress to play that trump card (even if it means Kennedy and Byrd need to come back), this is it. If health 'insurance' reform dies, I fear the momentum for this presidency will as well. And I can attest to the need for immediate climate change action. That's gotta be next.

Justin said...

One of the problems of the process is that it is very difficult to create a strong, unified message since everything is still in negotiations.

While it may have been easier for messaging purposes for Obama to have presented a bill to Congress, it would have made negotiations much harder. We do know Clinton's method didn't work, but we don't know if Obama's will. We'll have to wait and see.

Davy said...

Spellcheck: Once more into the 'breech'.

Dwight said...

Its cites specfics which is alot more than most of the seat of the pants and platitues on here.

Citing specifics yet fundamentally flawed. Doubly so based on what you are taking away from it. As has been pointed out a number of times. Yet you still try to beat a long dead horse with a discredited "but what about the choice!!!" red herring. :/

Dwight said...

P.S. nova_middle_man People are usually motivated by self-interest

Yeah, it's sad that more people didn't have the foresight back in '94, were given the "well this is for your own good" song and dance sold to them back then. Chickens are now starting coming home to roost. *shrug* Here's to hoping that 09/10 doesn't see a repeat of that brand of flawed, short sighted self-interest.

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Davy said...

@Justin

"We do know that Clinton's method didn't work, but we don't know if Obama's will. We'll just have to wait and see."

See, that's my point. We'll never know unless we try it. The polls say the majority of Americans want health 'insurance' reform (unless you're polling health care insurance companies). We need to get some kind of bill passed in that regard. We can tweak it or dump it later if it doesn't work.

Arthur said...

For reasons beyond understanding, Democrats have still not learned the lessons that the Republicans adopted long ago. That is how to market your position is even more important than the position itself. A simple clear message, phrased in positive terms, and repeated persistently, would go a long way in pushing back the constant drumbeat of negative flack from the right and now the media.

And where is the DNC in this? Having as Chair an active governor who has little time to get out and spread the message doesn't help at all. Tim Kaine should be all over TV, radio and newspapers selling the program.

While I agree with Nate that the negotiation phase that we are going through is about normal, the communications have been abysmal. You cannot keep your supporters on board if you don't communicate clear goals at the start of the process and give regular updates during the process, including issues resolved and issues yet to be resolved. The need for out of sight negotiations is clear, but the communications by the leadership has reflected an insular approach that tells most people you don't matter, we'll do this to suit ourselves.

Although health care is complex, it can be clearly explained to lay people if time attention and information is provided. I highly recommend the recent Charlie Rose interview with the head of the Mayo Clinic for those who have not yet seen it. It is a good example of how you explain the issue and elicit support for the reform effort.

I want the Dems to get on the ball and develop a decent communications strategy for the administrations programs! I won't contribute an additional dime until I see thing moving in that direction.

California Girl said...

Yours is the most concise and well written piece of info yet on nationwide health care reform. The thing that stands out for me is the lack of "clarity" as you put it, the failure of the admin to communicate with the American people. I feel as though our elected officials will continue to bow to the demands of their big money constituents, most of whom are special interest groups who'll want watered down versions of any plan put forth. If the public wants something, we will get it by putting more pressure on our politicians; but it's hard to know what we do or don't want if the criteria is not explained.

I heard a great discussion about this on NPR and one of the pundits said there is not enough communication with the public about any of it. An article in the NY Times refers to the discussions as "secretive". This simply fuels fear and gives the opposition to health care reform more ammo when they spread their misconceptions about the results.

I wrote a post on this yesterday referring to the many roadblocks to success, referencing the NY Times, AP, Huffington Post. Two of the comments came from people in other countries who wonder why we do not model our plan on those that work well such as France or Australia?

That's a very good question...

Edward said...

If you think the Republican lies on health care have been bad, just check Google and YouTube for

"kill grandma bill"

Rachel Maddow played a selection of Republican politicians and talking heads pushing various versions of this slander last night.

On the Democratic side, you have to factor in the effective TV ads that we have been seeing.

Sacto Joe said...

My take on the reason the support numbers are going south is that the far left is abandoning any pretense to being reasonable and willing to compromise. I say this as a long-time Democrat of the liberal persuasion.

Talk by people on this site of "never voting Democrat again" if the public option isn't included is a prime example.

TIME TO GROW UP, PEOPLE! Or else give the right wing the anchor they need to claw their way back into power.

nova_middle_man said...

Davy,

You are an idiot

Government never cancels anything. That is why it is so important that healthcare is done right.

I actually agree that much of the debate on here is pointless until there is actual bill. That hasn't stopped Nate from posting and as long as he and the commenters post controversial stuff there will be comments.

Davy said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Jarv said...

Bart DePalma said:
"Only morons think that providing additional medical care for 30 to 40 million people will save money."

I'm not positive it will SAVE money, but I AM positive that providing such care will not be as expensive as it appears.

We *DO* provide medical care to everybody in this country. If you go to an emergency room in this country, you will not be refused urgent medical care, regardless of your insurance status. What this means is that a LOT of those 30-40 million people ARE getting medical care, for free, on the taxpayers of their states, by going to the emergency room. And, emergency medical care is A LOT more expensive than preventative medicine. What might have been "take baby aspirins and stop eating steak" 5 years ago is a triple bypass surgery tomorrow. More generally, when someone is in the emergency room, doctors don't want to miss anything, and will order expensive tests. In a normal doctor's visit, they can ask the patient to do a "test" themselves at home over time, for a lot less money, ie, cut out dairy for a month. As it is, the emergency room costs are born by states, hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies....and those costs DO get passed on to us in the form of higher taxes, higher fees, and higher copayments/deductibles/payments.

I'm not enough of an expert to claim I know that covering uninsured people would actually save money, or break even. It seems pretty clear, though, that covering them will not "cost" us the full amount. It MAY cost the US government a ton of money, but if I get some of that back by getting paid more at work, not having my state taxes raised, or paying $10 instead of $20 when I go to the doctor, it isn't as bad as it seems.

Davy said...

@NMMan

You know, I can think of a number of things that government has canceled in just the past few months; even days (F-22), If that's the metric you're using to define my mental health or judgment, then I suggest you scrutinize yourself in that mirror a little more closely.

It is more important to get it done. There will be no consensus from conservatives on the particulars of this plan. There wasn't 15 years ago. But there is consensus that it needs to be done. Just get it done.

Jacob said...

Walker the Republican Troll wrote If Republicans are Trolls, Democrats are Elves…Trolls, in comparison, are earthy, tied to the ground, gritty and hard-scrabble, ...blah blah blah... and bristle-thatch facial hair…womenfolk are easily charmed by their manly musk…

There you have it. Either women Republicans are hairy lesbian trolls, or they aren't really part of the party.

That said your characterization of elves and trolls is both inaccurate and leaves a lot out. For example, trolls are incredibly stupid, they eat babies, and many turn to stone in the open sun. They argue incessantly, are utterly selfish, and have bad breath. All that, I agree, is very Republican. Elves on the other hand are intelligent, inventive, lightning fast, great lovers of the earth, fantastic smiths, builders, artists, and song writers, excellent bowmen and swordsmen (yes, they had swords, didn't you know?). Furthermore, I've read firsthand accounts of elves whose descriptions include "hale like a tried warrior in his prime".

Dwight said...

nova_middle_man said...

I actually agree that much of the debate on here is pointless until there is actual bill.


How about trying a more positive approach. Like "how can an matching fund HSA work under this sort of legislation?" Looking a little deeper at what is trying to be accomplished, the why of it all. Right now you have been doing more along the lines of "OMG OMG it just can't be done, punt on the reform".

For example with the self directed fund you could have a very high deductable product coupled with putting up what is effectively a cash bond to cover a reasonable number of deductibles if they were ever required. At the end of it all that money is still in your estate if you lead that healthy life, up until the point you dropped dead (or bought more comprehensive coverage so you no longer were required to post the bond).

Positive ideas are the solution. Negative naysaying not so much.

Doug B said...

The big problem, as NS points out, is that Americans really don't understand how we can cover more people at lower cost. I certainly don't. If it is possible, Obama needs to use his role as Explainer in Chief - one of the things he does best - and make a prime-time Oval Office address to explain exactly how that is possible. I believe single payer vs. private is really a side show to that issue and something we should be agnostic on - why do people care whether a government or insurance company bureaucrat will determine whether their procedure is necessary? - and whichever makes it possible to cover more people while stemming inflation will prevail.

dre7861 said...

I think with the issue of Health Care Reform that the old saying is true: that the American population is in front of the politicians. The politicians are fighting the Health Care reform battle of the 1990s. President Obama is guilty of this - I would have much more confidence if he had proposed the Health Care Reform Bill to congress instead of the way it is playing now. I think the public would have been more supportive of the bill if it had come that way.

I believe that what the majority of the American public wants from Health Care reform is far ahead of what the politicians are babling about that if they pass a cosmetic bill the populace will be very angry. Probably a very weak bill will make them angry too! Each election the thing that the voters say to reporters, no matter which party they are voting for, is that they want their elected leaders to make tough dicissions about the important matters. And after each election the majority of politicians ignore that advice. Some of the Health Care reform bills winding their ways through Congress are so geared to playing it safe and the America public knows it. Hopefully the congress will hear the truth from their constiuients when they go on recess next week.

nova_middle_man said...

Dwight do you have multiple personality disorder?

I swear you post some of the best (last post) and pointeless (earlier stuff) on here

Maybe there are two Dwights???

On your last point Exactly thats what Health Savings Accounts are for. I know personally thats what I have. Frankly its what the bast majority of people should have. The average might go to the doctor three times a year if that.

I hate to reference that article again but under the current bill HSA are under attack. Thats NOT COOL.

Look not to beat a dead horse again I am an independent I do want healthcare reform. Its just when you have a bill thats 1200+ pages there is alot of crazy stuff in there. Seriously 1200+ pages why. I bet there are less than 100 people that have actually read the entire thing and can actually talk about the bill. None of them are in congress and none of them are on this site.

Pragmatus said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Pragmatus said...

The danger the Democrats are falling into is that they have let the GOP and their minions drag this whole debate off course. That’s why I’ve always said that the debate as of now should be about health insurance reform. Once that is accomplished the debate over the cost of health care delivery can begin. But the president and the Democrats have fallen into the deadly position of answering every single charge the GOP throws up, with the result that in two weeks’ time everybody in the country will be confused beyond hope. Then the insurance industry will sweep in with jillion-dollar ads proclaiming that they feel everybody’s pain, and they really are interested in reform, and this time everything will be different….blah, blah, blah. The status quo will go on and on.

Stick to the facts, Mr. President. At this stage of the game they are very simple, and deal only with insurance. All you need do is remind people, again and again and agina and agin if necessary, that—

♦ All the uninsured that show up at hospital emergency rooms get paid for, at exorbitant rates, by taxpayers, to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. A government option that sees to it everybody is insured would put a stop to that waste.
♦ A government option would put a stop to the waste, inefficiency and bloat that is the “managed care” HMO system, which is nothing more than an elaborate, very effective scheme of big insurances companies to deny treatment. We already have a model for health insurance without all the overhead and bloat—Medicare. Saves billions of dollars every year; that’s why the president is proposing to get rid of Medicare run by the insurance companies because it does nothing but add to costs and denies and frustrates care. CBO estimates are that insurance industry inefficiencies waste on the order of $300 billion a year.
♦ Insurance companies make enormous profits off health insurance. Of the approximate 3 trillion dollars spent annually on health care in this country, up to ten percent (that’s 300 billions dollars) are skimmed off the top for insurance company profits. That’s up to $1,000 for every man, woman and child in America that could be going into healthcare rather than some investor’s pocket.
♦ For those who profess worry about a government option limiting the choice of doctors and hospitals, ask someone on Medicare. I am on Medicare and have 100 times as many doctors to go to as I had when I was on a “managed care” HMO system. Insurance companies contract with doctors and clinics nobody would go to otherwise, because they can sign them up on the cheap. The government has no such motive.

But this will require a full-court press. Mr. President, get the focus of this discussion back on track, and hammer home these few points, and get your spokespeople to hammer them too. Don’t digress. Don’t get caught up in the tarbabies of endless discussion of the objections opponents of reform keep throwing at you.

Keep. It. Simple

mcc said...

One thing I'd like to draw attention to here: Consider where the Democrats' strategy (or lack thereof) has brought us. It's looking, now, like every relevant committee in both houses is going to have bills reported out before the August recess. The implication is that debate and votes on those bills will be happening soon after the August recess. The Democrats are not doing their job well in the popular arena. But in the legislative arena, they've done pretty well. They've navigated a very tricky process with a Congress that has demonstrated a lot of childish behavior this year, and three of the four candidate bills they've generated are very good. And remember, the point in the process they appear to have just successfully passed is the point in the process where Clinton's health care plan arguably took the most damage-- the committee process. There will now be a one-month intermission.

It seems to me that the one-month recess offers an excellent opportunity for the democrats to start over with this bill in the public arena. And to an extent, what happens in the public arena didn't matter until now-- all the action's been in small committees behind closed doors in Washington, not a situation that is necessarily directly linked to public pressure. Obama or the Democratic leadership inserting themselves into *that* process visibly could have served only to slow it down. But now we're moving on to the actual floor amendment and vote process, the place where public opinion does make a big deal and big players like Obama do have a chance to wield influence.

I doubt it was engineered this way on purpose. But Obama and other large Democratic players now have an opening to take the HELP/House bill, deem it "the Democratic Plan", and take it to the American people advocating for it directly and specifically. I think the real reason Obama's been avoiding specifics is that he's been trying to leave those specifics up to Congress-- well, now Congress has produced its input, and there's no reason to hold back. This can both raise the profile of the health care reform with the american people and ensure that the reconciled bill looks more like the HELP bill than the Finance Committee bill.

Dwight said...

I hate to reference that article again but under the current bill HSA are under attack.

It is only postulated that they are under "attack" because of the assumption that they couldn't fall into the "approved" category. Your reaction, and really that article's premise and conclusion, is faulty. The idea of a HSA is not at odds with the basic aim of that bill. Therefore the bill need not be rejected. It maybe could use clarification in this area to alleviate concerns. Maybe the authors didn't consider that option when they wrote it.

Or maybe they thought it was self evident that it was possible. Sometimes getting too explicit about what is acceptable can create problems in inadvertently implying needless limits. Less is more and all that.

P.S. I have not seen any "Dwight" posts that were not written by this personality. ;) You do have a habit of reading in things that aren't there and missing others. Some people have called you creating a "strawman" but I think you might be just falling into someone else's strawman that you saw on a "talking point" somewhere or from someone that was making a poor argument.

nova_middle_man said...

Finally a ray of sunslight

$100 Billion saved

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/29/AR2009072902027_pf.html

Assuming the fragile committee coalition holds, the legislation it produces would scramble the reform landscape by introducing policy ideas that have their origins in the political center. The bill is bound to disappoint liberals. But with prominent GOP backing, it also could prove more difficult for Republicans to reject out of hand -- the approach they have taken to the House bill and a second Senate version, written by the health committee.

This is what is best for the country. When liberals and conservatives are pissed off you know you are doing something right

nova_middle_man said...

Dwight how do you reconcile some of your mature posts with garbage like this

Dwight said...
Its cites specfics which is alot more than most of the seat of the pants and platitues on here.

Citing specifics yet fundamentally flawed. Doubly so based on what you are taking away from it. As has been pointed out a number of times. Yet you still try to beat a long dead horse with a discredited "but what about the choice!!!" red herring. :/

July 29, 2009 12:30 PM
Dwight said...
P.S. nova_middle_man People are usually motivated by self-interest

Yeah, it's sad that more people didn't have the foresight back in '94, were given the "well this is for your own good" song and dance sold to them back then. Chickens are now starting coming home to roost. *shrug* Here's to hoping that 09/10 doesn't see a repeat of that brand of flawed, short sighted self-interest.

You cant have it both ways bud

I am pretty pleased with the 900 billion plan. The only thing is whats to prevent it from going down to 800 billion. Why was the original bill at 1 trillion plus in the first place.

See this is the thing there is little to no incentive to keep costs down in government. In privated industry if you keep costs down you increase profits so there is an incentive which is sadly missing in congress.

Thats it for today

Ed said...

James said...

This criticism is unfair.

I think that the last few months have made clear that it was always going to be impossible for Obama to dictate one plan on Congress; there are simply too many permutations to be debated. Thus, we do not yet have a single "plan."

And without a "plan," it's virtually impossible for Obama and his party to sell it to the public.


I think Nate's analysis of the Dem's failure to explain the benefits of health care reform are right on, and his criticisms are fair.

Where I disagree with Nate is his framing of the options available to Obama in terms of how to manage the bill drafting process. Many analysts set forth this false choice. Either Obama could have (A) Centralized the process by presenting a complete proposal and running the risk of replicating the Clintons' experience, or (B) Sit on the sideline and allow Congress to shape the bill and then react. He's done the latter. However, there are a lot of middle paths between totally dominating the process and being completely hands off until the end.

Obama, for instance, could have let Congress taken the lead in shaping the bill but given much clearer guidelines to congressional leaders on what he would support and what his non-negotiables were. Instead he sent unclear signals about whether a public option had to be in a bill or what the consequences would be for not getting this done by August 1. He never tried to draw any lines in the sand. He also could have inserted himself more in the negotiations along the way, brokering deals with different factions and/or giving feedback to the congessional leaders as various options were being floated. Maybe his staff has done this behind the scenes, but it seems as the Congressional leaders have been a bit frustrated in the lack of guidance (and political cover) from Obama.

Or Obama could have presented his own plan as the basis for negotiation, BUT unlike Hillary done it less secretively and involved key congressional leaders.

Instead, by staying largely hands off and allowing Congress to shape the bill, he's lost control of the process and the message. He made the same mistake with the stimulus bill, and the end product was not as good as it could have been. I fear the same thing will happen with health care. We'll get a bill, but it'll be a very watered down one.

Dwight said...

Dwight how do you reconcile some of your mature posts with garbage like this

Your poor judgement of what is "garbage" and what is not?

You cant have it both ways bud

I'm going to put that back on you. You are all for reform but then you say you are not because you are wigged out by a single article ... and continue to be even after the HUGE flaws in it (and your reasoning) are pointed out?

You are getting sucked in by the "choice" mantra where there are crappy choices. You are myopically focused on the one or two choices you think you might want, failing to work to reconcile those with others, who happen to be far in the majority BTW.

Pragmatus said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Pragmatus said...

For all those who wonder why health insurance reform seems to be tottering—look no further than nova_muddle_man’s posts. He’s the poster child for wanting things to stay just as they are, while trying to disguise himself as “for reform”.

He is what’s known as a “concern troll”, who tries to appear calm and thoughtful while underneath pushing very hard on a (usually arch-conservative) agenda. His appearances here consist entirely of throwing the discussion off-track, so that it will get bogged down in details that have nothing to do with what’s trying to be done.

How can you spot them easily? Simple. As soon as someone calls them at their game, they start with the “garbage” and “moron” etc characterizations.

You only have to look back a little ways to see “garbage” sprouting from a NMM post.

Michael Hurta said...

Democrats have obviously failed the message game here, and you make that even more clear here. You also give a good plan for action from here on out, but it seems Democrats would need to execute it almost perfectly to succeed. And they haven't showed the ability to execute a healthcare strategy with even near perfection.

Is it too late to switch over to Wyden's bill? The only winning grade for Democrats in those 5 points was #5 -- the only point that would transfer if we switched to backing a different plan. we would start out ahead if we tried to push for Wyden.

markymark said...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32202195/ns/politics-white_house/

To me that sounds quite positive. Blue Dogs open to a Public Option, and willing to allow votes to go forward come September. I think maybe the plan is all coming together!

Saint Dude said...

From the AP article that appeared this afternoon titled, "Deal with 'Blue Dogs' sets up health care vote"

"In the Senate, Baucus, Grassley and two other senators from each party have been negotiating for weeks in hopes of agreeing on compromise legislation. Both men face considerable pressure from their respective parties — Baucus not to stray too far from Democratic objectives, Grassley not to hand the president a political victory."

How fucked up is the republican party that their leading member who is actually participating in the reform discussion is tasked with 'not handing the president a political victory'. Is there truly no one on the republican side of the isle interested in reform? Is there no one on that side with any ideas?

The solutions that have been cobbled together by the democratic legislators may have a few warts. But at least they are acting like adults, doing some considerably heavy lifting, and working hard to reform our healthcare system. The republicans are acting like the cast from Mean Girls.

mcc said...

Obama, for instance, could have let Congress taken the lead in shaping the bill but given much clearer guidelines to congressional leaders on what he would support and what his non-negotiables were... He never tried to draw any lines in the sand. He also could have inserted himself more in the negotiations

While this is true, it seems like Obama has also gotten much better about this as the debate has progressed. Although he sent many signals early in the process that he saw the public option as negotiable, there seems to have been a specific point a week or two ago where his public position suddenly shifted and since then he has been very active in campaigning for the public option and presenting it as an essential component of the bill. I'm not clear on whether he did this because he was taking a wait-and-see approach at first and then once he concluded the public option was possible at all decided to start treating it as non-negotiable, or whether he just suddenly got scared of the base... but his participation in the debate for the last week or so has been much better than it was before and hopefully this is a sign of what he'll be doing over the next month.

Mule Rider said...

Is there truly no one on the republican side of the isle interested in reform? Is there no one on that side with any ideas?

Doesn't matter. They are irrelevant. Remember?

Democrats have the White House, a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, and damn near 60% of the House. They only have themselves to blame. Republicans can't be "obstructionists" when their voice doesn't matter.

I know this would happen, though. Democrats could have the White House, 100% of Congress, and 9 liberal Supreme Court judges and find a way to pin the problems in the country on conservatives.

Dwight said...

Doesn't matter. They are irrelevant. Remember?

By this tack they are manufacturing their irrelevancy.

George said...

Health care reform is not occuring in a vacuum. We've had two tremendously expensive and tremendously unpopular bills passed within the last 12 months--TARP and the stimulus. Health care suffers because of these bills. Obama is not helped by the assertion that this reform will somehow not cost gobs of megabucks--given the number of people that would be brought in costs WILL rise. Claiming costs won't rise is either 1) a lie or 2) a reference to cost containment and rationing.

That's the challenge faced by the Democrats. Either admit reality and blow the budget up even worse than it is or been seen as lying about the costs. Either approach is tremendously discomforting to median voters--and THAT is why the Blue Dogs are running so scared. Their districts are tight enough that they are out of office in a heartbeat if the median voter turns against the Democratic party.

Huh said...

Nate, I hope you read this and incorporate it into the discussion on healthcare spending

Isn't the White House doing itself a disservice by allowing this "trillion dollar target" nonsense to float around. Everyone invariably leaves off the "over ten years" part.

100 billion dollars a year equates to about a 20% increase in the federal healthcare budget. Medicare and Medicaid are around 500 billion combined.

Has anyone done an honest pole that asked people how they would feel about a 20% increase in federal healthcare spending if it covered another 15-35 million people?

George said...

Huh, how can Medicare/Medicaid, with around 90 million people AND significant cost containment provisions cost $500B while 35 million new people will only cost a marginal increase of $100B?

shiloh said...

Davy said...

@shiloh

So here's an irony. Wonder if Halsey would've made it to Midway if he'd had better health care? Just musing. I'm sure he had excellent health care and they probably didn't know a great deal about his skin condition. Besides, Spruance was obviously the right man for the job. Halsey struck me as a more 'all-in' poker player and I don't think that would have worked against Nagumo at Midway. Spruance knew where to park the fleet, whereas I suspect Halsey would've sailed recklessly into the breach.

Regardless; my respects for your service to the country aboard the Spruance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Thank you :) but would just add thank you to all the marines/soldiers etc. on the front lines of America's military operations, both past and present! and thank you to all American families who have suffered/sacrificed family members in America's eternal battle to keep our country safe and free.

Joined the Navy because thought there was less of a chance I would be dodging bullets, so my admiration for those who volunteer for battle is immense!

Oh the irony that the military is maintaining our freedom so that dweebs/trolls like PK can continue to roam political boards spouting nonsense/hate! ;) and chickenhawks like beck, malkin, coultergeist, ingraham, savage, billo, hannity and limbaugh etc. can continue to spew their self-loathing racism!, I digress.

On a lighter note, my first cruise on the Spruance was an (80) day, show the flag! in port half the time :) African/S. American cruise, leaving Norfolk, VA ~ Jan 16, 1978 to Apr 4, 1978:

Some enjoyable moments one never forgets!

Casablanca, Morocco
Dakar, Senegal
Monrovia, Liberia
Libreville, Gabon
"Crossed the equator ~ shellback initiation" 00 latitude/longitude Greenwich Meridian
Tema, Ghana

Crossed the Atlantic again.

Salvadore, Brazil
Rio de Janeiro March 20 to March 27, one never forgets their trip to Rio!
Salvadore, Brazil again
Barbados
Home

So on my first cruise spent (7) days in Rio ~ There is a god! because I visited Heaven! :)

and yes, made a Mediterranean cruise 1978/1979 and they showed the movie 'Midway' a couple times during the cruise. Also showed the movie 'Midnight Express' before we went to Istanbul, Turkey!

take care

Dwight said...

George said...

Huh, how can Medicare/Medicaid, with around 90 million people AND significant cost containment provisions cost $500B while 35 million new people will only cost a marginal increase of $100B?


I'm guessing because they are, to some extent, paying customers.

Opus 132 said...

And also because many,if not most,of the newly covered will be young healthy people whose healthcare costs will be very low compared to the costs of people on Medicare.

PorridgeGun said...

Nate, I haven't even read half way through your post, and already I know what the main problem is...


BLUE DOGS

AMERICA'S CORPORATE MEDIA





I just heard CNN's Dana Bash literally moments ago say, I shit you not, "The more progress is made, the harder it'll be to pass healthcare reform."

I almost expected her next sentence to be, "This is great news for John McCain!"

Josh said...

It makes me so sad that so many Americans actively fight against their own self interest because of the brain-washing of the health insurance industry and their bought off politicians.

Matt said...

@Jeff:
Reagan also slew a terrible bout of inflation. Obama's policies are in fact courting inflation.

Now, what specific policies of Reagan's "slew" inflation? His tax cut? How did that cut inflation?

I'm sure you know that, in 1981, the Federal Reserve raised the prime rate to 20%--which contributed to a rise in unemployment, but which is also credited with cutting inflation and with cutting unemployment in the long run.

This was a remarkable achievement, stopping the stagflation cycle that we'd been mired in. It was largely due to the actions of the Fed and expecially its chairman, Paul Volcker.

Volcker had, of course, been appointed by...Jimmy Carter.

Remarkable, isn't it? Mr. October Surprise gets credit for his predecessor's foresight.

Mike in Maryland said...

Pragmatus said...
The danger the Democrats are falling into is that they have let the GOP and their minions drag this whole debate off course.

Exactly.

First, the polls reference a "health care plan".

WHICH PLAN?

There are at least four in the Senate, and at least two in the House. What will those plans look like when the vote takes place on the floor of the House? What will those plans look like when the vote takes place on the folor of the Senate?

And then consider that the House bill and the Senate bill must be EXACTLY the same to be sent to the President for signature. If not, the House can vote for the Senate version, or the Senate can vote for the House version (usually doesn't happen except when there are extremely minor differences in the bills) OR the bill goes to a conference committee whose purpose is to resolve the differences between the bills (and then sometimes the bill that comes out has absolutely no resemblance to the two versions that went in), and then the House and Senate get to vote AGAIN.

Second, the GOOPer noise machine has picked up on the singular "Plan" wording, and taking the worst aspect of this plan, and the worst aspect of that plan, and confounding the populace with the propaganda that these are aspects of "the Obama plan".

There IS no 'Obama' plan, as he hasn't thrown his weight behind ANY of the multiple plans.

Anyone who states "plan" when speaking of any of the multiple plans, without specifying exactly WHICH of the multiple plans, is doing the GOOPers work for them.

And if you'll notice, the wingnuts, GOOPer-shilling, TROLLs posting here are specifying a lot of talk about they are against the 'plan', but not identifying WHICH of the multiple plans.

What President Obama needs to do, if he doesn't want to specify a single plan that he supports, is to specify, in VERY clear language, what aspects of the different plans he objects to, and/or what aspects he wants in the final plan (such as a provision for a public option?). And he needs to make it clear that if certain aspects of any of the current, multiple, plans are repugnant (coops instead of a public option?), he will Veto the bill if it contains those aspects. And/or if the final bill he is presented with to sign doesn't contain certain provisions, he will veto the bill.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Mike in Maryland said...

George said...
Obama is not helped by the assertion that this reform will somehow not cost gobs of megabucks--given the number of people that would be brought in costs WILL rise. Claiming costs won't rise is either 1) a lie or 2) a reference to cost containment and rationing.

George?

Exactly who is not getting medical care RIGHT NOW?

The person who doesn't have insurance, but goes to the ER when they have a cold or have a heart attack? They aren't getting medical care?

Do you know that each insured person pays $1,000 more PER YEAR because the uninsured use the ER for their medical care? And many don't get medical care unless and until they are at death's door, when the cost skyrockets from maybe $100 if they had gone to a doctor when they first had symptoms of a malady, to $100,000 or more because they now need surgery, intensive care for a week, and a three week stay in the hospital.

Now, instead of parroting the GOOPer talking points of NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! (oooooops, make that 'talking point' (singular), just repeated ad nauseum), and give us some legitimate proposals on how to solve the problem.

Or if you don't think we have a problem, tell us, then STFU.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Davy said...

Parallel thread to shiloh:

This kinda irritates me. After CVN Nimitz we kinda got into a habit of naming aircraft carriers after living presidents. What's that all about? We need carriers named after victorious battles or victorious warriors. Why isn't there a carrier named Halsey instead of George H.W. Bush? And I'm sure that Carl Vinson and John Stennis were fine officers but why do they get carriers named after them instead of Spruance, Leyte Gulf, Fletcher, or the commander of Taffy 3?

Brian said...

@James

"This criticism is unfair...Once the Democrats actually agree on something, then it will be fair to consider whether they are properly promoting it."

I lol'd.

shiloh said...

Brian said...

@James

"This criticism is unfair...Once the Democrats actually agree on something, then it will be fair to consider whether they are properly promoting it."

I lol'd.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

thanx for sharing.

btw, I laugh out loud at the current state of the Rep party, but as even too much laughter can be bad for you, I try to pace myself! ;)

take care, blessings

Tony said...

You know, this post reminds me of all the neocon talk about how America failed in "selling" its mid-East policy to win Arab "hearts and minds" when the policy itself was the problem.

The democratic plans for health care are all various shades of bad, and all worse than the status quo (which is admittedly bad).

Soon-to-be-ex Obama supporter

shiloh said...

Davy said...

Parallel thread to shiloh:

This kinda irritates me. After CVN Nimitz we kinda got into a habit of naming aircraft carriers after living presidents. What's that all about? We need carriers named after victorious battles or victorious warriors. Why isn't there a carrier named Halsey instead of George H.W. Bush? And I'm sure that Carl Vinson and John Stennis were fine officers but why do they get carriers named after them instead of Spruance, Leyte Gulf, Fletcher, or the commander of Taffy 3?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's mostly politics when it comes to naming ships. Don't have a problem w/Vinson who served and was always a strong supporter of the military. He was one of the few living Americans to have a ship named after him and was at the ship's launching in 1980 at age 96! Don't know much about Stennis.

The Spruance Class destroyers were named after admirals. Detached to (4) of them when I was in my Helicopter Squadron HSL-34: Spruance, Briscoe DD-977, Stump DD-978 and the U.S.S. Comte de Grasse DD-974 which was named after a French Admiral who helped America during the Revolutionary war. Interesting to note after 9/11 when the childish Reps were making fun of the French and renaming French Fries, Freedom Fries was wondering if these fools knew about the French helping America defeat the British when our country was founded.

hmm, those silly, silly Reps and their grade school demagoguery!

Have to laugh at the loonies who want to put Reagan on Mount Rushmore. With the current state of their party Reps should try to dig him up! :) My mom knew all about Reagan during WWII, he was in charge of Army training films and she was a secretary at Patterson Field and used to see all the bombing missions over Europe as Patterson Field in Dayton was the Army Air Corp Headquarters and she used to watch his training films also.

Wonder if 'Bonzo' knew his daddy would go on to become president. America, what a country!

Yea, it's mostly politics, but they do try to recognize excellence in the military and historical battles. And don't expect any ship or building to be named after Bush43 any time soon lol other than his library.

When I first arrived at NAS Norfolk, July 1977, it was at night and took the bus from the airport and it dropped off all the sailors who were stationed on ships first and we went by the Nimitz and Eisenhower, CVN-68 and CVN-69 which were tied to the same pier and the 68 and 69 were lit up in bright lights and of course the ships were humongous, especially to someone like me, who had never seen a carrier.

My last sea duty tour was on the U.S.S. Saratoga CV-60 1985-1988, stationed at Mayport/Jacksonville, FL. Was a computer tech then and part of ship's company ie I lived on the ship.

Anchors Aweigh! :)

ciao

shiloh said...
This post has been removed by the author.
shiloh said...

One small correction: Reagan wasn't in charge of Army training films, he served as a narrator/star for the films.

Nate, or to whom it may concern: 538 needs an edit feature for posts rather than having to totally delete a post that one screws up lol

as I am one who doesn't like to totally delete a post ie "Comment deleted ~ This post has been removed by the author."

carry on

Mike in Maryland said...

shiloh said...
. . . after 9/11 when the childish Reps were making fun of the French and renaming French Fries, Freedom Fries

Shiloh,

I KNOW you'll get a kick out of this:

During those idiot times, a restaurant in the Fells Point neighborhood of Baltimore made it a point to advertise that 'GENUINE FRENCH FRIES ARE SOLD HERE!'.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

shiloh said...

Mike in Maryland said...

shiloh said...
. . . after 9/11 when the childish Reps were making fun of the French and renaming French Fries, Freedom Fries

Shiloh,

I KNOW you'll get a kick out of this:

During those idiot times, a restaurant in the Fells Point neighborhood of Baltimore made it a point to advertise that 'GENUINE FRENCH FRIES ARE SOLD HERE!'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

lol yea, it was totally absurd, especially since pommes frites originated in Belgium and not France!

Republicans are all about slogans ie stay the course, you're either w/us or against us, et al whereas having a keen grasp of reality, not so much.

ciao

lambert_strether_openid said...

" Obama, who seems strangely resistant to populist rhetoric."

What's strange about it? At most, Obama's got a few Whole Food Nation cultural markers; he was never a progressive to begin with, let alone a populist. (See under TARP, $700 billion, and see also Accountability, lack of.)

Anyhow, nice post, and if the Dems are just figuring this out now, they suck even worse than I imagined.

Davy said...

@shiloh

Awesome! One of the things on my life list is to visit the original Sara at Bikini Atoll. I also had a relative who served on the Midway in '48. I paid a visit to her in '07 down in San Diego.

I'm glad NASA has kept a reasonably cool head about naming shuttles despite the fact that I was was one of the Star Trek fans as a kid pulling for the name Enterprise. That was probably about the time you reported for duty on the Sara II.

Anyway, good chatting with you.

Davy said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Davy said...

My mistake. I didn't realize that Forrestal class carriers operated well into the nineties. I figured they had all been scuttled for artificial reefs or turned into museums or razor blades by then.

shiloh said...

Knew the Sara was decomissioned in the mid '90s, looked up the info:

"Saratoga was decommissioned at the Naval Station, Mayport, Florida, on 20 August 1994, and stricken from the Naval Vessel Register the same day. She was towed to Philadelphia in May 1995, then, upon deactivation of the Philadelphia Navy Yard in August 1998, to Newport, Rhode Island. There, she was first placed on donation hold, then her status was changed to "disposal as an experimental ship", and finally she was returned to donation hold on 1 January 2000. While a hulk at Newport, ex-Saratoga, like her sisters, has been extensively stripped to support the active carrier fleet. There is an active effort to make her a museum ship in Quonset Point in North Kingstown, Rhode Island."

And re: Star Trek, Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life on this planet! ;)

take care

Mike in Maryland said...

Late to the 'naval history' discussion - I never served in the military, but my father served on the USS Neshoba (APA 216) during WW II.

The ship was an attack transport that served in the Pacific theater, serving between San Fran, San Diego, Pearl, Midway, Guam, Okinawa Shima in the Ryukyus, the Philippines and other locales.

My father was on the ship when the fleet she was in was attacked by Japanese kamikaze pilots on several occasions.

After the war, the Neshoba was briefly stationed in Japan, and then was part of the convoy of ships that were the original 'Magic Carpet Ride', taking US troops from the Pacific theater to Seattle, and from there the troops were discharged and sent to their home towns.

Unfortunately, my father died before I was 2-1/2, so I got all my information about his life in the Navy and on the ship second-hand from his brothers and sisters, or by searching the Internet for any information.

By the way, a site devoted to the USS Neshoba (including a picture of the ship) is at:
http://www.rpadden.com/neshoba.htm

The ship's deck logs, from her commissioning on November 16, 1944, are located at:
http://www.rpadden.com/216logs/4411/4411logs.htm

BTW - if the name 'Neshoba' rings a bell, it is the county in Mississippi that the ship was named after. The county seat is Philadelphia, where Ronnie Ray-Gun gave his first speech in his 1980 Presidential campaign.

Neshoba also is the county in which the KKK murdered James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner in the summer of 1964, the basis for the film Mississippi Burning, among other films.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

shiloh said...

Sorry about your dad :( happy you were able to find out some of his military history.

Neither here nor there, but % wise the Navy lost more men/women than the Army during WWII. The Army of course had a lot more total servicemen than the Navy and had more total casualties, but as a percentage of casualties lost, the Navy had a higher % because, of course, many U.S. ships were sunk in the Pacific and the Atlantic. And Pearl Harbor :( didn't get the USN off to a very good start when Japan attacked.

Had (4) uncles who also served. One in the Navy and Army who both were in the Pacific during WWII and (2) who served in Korea. And (3) older cousins who served in Vietnam and returned safe and sound :) more or less ie as well as could be expected.

As Sherman said, "All war is hell!" or as we said in the navy, war is hell, and peacetime is a motherf.....

The Vietnam draft ended Dec. 1973 I think. I turned 18 in '72 but didn't get a draft lottery #, but my memory may be fuzzy! ;)

ciao

shiloh said...

OK, re: the Navy forgot to mention all the Marines who died, especially in the Pacific: Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Saipan, Guadalcanal, Tarawa Beach Head, Leyte Gulf etc.

Semper Fi !!!

Mike in Maryland said...

Shiloh,

I had an uncle in Italy during WW II - he received a purple heart.

Another uncle was in Korea. Uncle Donald received a purple heart for injuries received on January 8, 1951, then another purple heart for injuries received on February 11, 1951. Not sure in which incident he received shrapnel in the back (spinal column), but he carried that shrapnel until he died less than four years ago. The shrapnel was too close to his spinal column to operate - if anything went wrong during the operation, there was a serious risk of paralysis.

The husband of one of my cousins was in Viet Nam. He was on patrol with about 100 other troops when the Cong ambushed the patrol. They suffered 50% fatalities from the ambush, and all but one of the rest suffered some sort of injury. The only one who was not KIA or injured was my cousin's husband. The brass immediately took him off the front line and assigned him to duties in Saigon - a much safer place for him at the time (late 60s).

Also had a cousin at Annapolis in the mid-60s, graduating in the top ten in his class. He then married a rear admiral's daughter, and soon after resigned his commission. Long story on how his father-in-law got him back for resigning! My cousin then went to the U of Chicago for his Masters in Sociology, and now lives in Rhode Island.

I also had (on my mother's side) a great-great-grandfather who served in the GAR in the Civil War, and another g-g-grandfather who served in the Georgia State Troops at the same time. The CSA g-g-grandfather was mustered out of one company, and within a week, he was enlisted in another company. Don't have any details on the how or why, but that's on my list of things to explore.

I need to do more research, but the two might have been on opposing sides in at least one battle, maybe more. My 'GAR g-g-grandfather' was part of Sherman's march to Savannah, then into North Carolina at the end of the Civil War.

I'm also a (very) distant cousin of George Armstrong Custer (he would have been my fourth cousin, four times removed). Our most recent common ancestor goes all the way back to someone born in 1650 in Anne Arundel County, Maryland.

And non-military, one of my ancestors (ironically on my mother's side - ironic because my mother has always been a tea-totaller) built a tavern straddling the Adams-Franklin county line in Pennsylvania in the late 1700s. When it was time for taxes in one county (let's call it County A) to be collected, he always served beer from taps in County B. Then he switched back to the taps in County A when it came time for County B to collect the taxes. Took them a long time to figure out what was happening.

Good thing the laws on 'tax avoidance' were not real strong at that period of time. VBG

BTW - some of my mother's ancestry came through Stark and Summit Counties in Ohio in the early to mid 1800s. My father's paternal ancestry came through Delaware, Maryland, Virginia and Ohio (mostly Licking and Adams Counties). His maternal ancestry came from New Jersey, then Ohio (Putnam and Hancock Counties).

So there's a bit of history in my ancestry, including some of it being military.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

shiloh said...

It's good that you know so much of your family history ie "Roots". I smile when people talk about their roots because I was adopted, no biggie. Always knew I was adopted and I'm not saying that in a bad way, but found out at (18) that my birth mom was 17, Italian and not married.

Truthfully, I never spend/spent a lot of time wondering about her, but I do wonder how many half brothers and sisters I might have since I'm stuck w/one lousy older sister ;) who's also adopted, I kid.

Enjoy telling folk that my mom is 100% Irish, my dad was German and I'm half Italian. :) Don't know anything about my birth father, again no biggie. And w/my mom being Irish have many, many cousins lol. My mom was 1 of 7 and her mom was the youngest of 11. What's the difference between an Irish wake and an Irish wedding? One less drunk! :)

My dad had three hobbies: planes, classical music and he was a Civil War buff(expert). Many pictures of my sister and I standing on cannons at Gettysburg or was it Antietam, Harpers Ferry, Manassas/Bull Run, Cold Harbor, etc. btw, just looked at a map of Manassas and it now has the Ronald Wilson Reagan Memorial Hwy running by it, guess I'm never going back there ;) I digress.

And George Armstrong Custer is one Ohio General "we" don't like to talk about lol

Since I've been on the internet (1998) I've used 'shiloh' as my nick or if shiloh is taken I use shiloh24 which comes from the Battle of Shiloh, not Brangelina's kid, and interesting to note, Shiloh is one of the few Civil War battle sites I haven't been to, although my dad was there a few times.

After Shiloh, the South never smiled!

ciao

Bart DePalma said...

Jarv said...

Bart DePalma said: "Only morons think that providing additional medical care for 30 to 40 million people will save money."

I'm not positive it will SAVE money, but I AM positive that providing such care will not be as expensive as it appears.

We *DO* provide medical care to everybody in this country. If you go to an emergency room in this country, you will not be refused urgent medical care, regardless of your insurance status.


Folks get basic medical care at emergency rooms even when they are insured because the law mandates the care, the transportation is free and the service is immediate compared to setting an appointment some days later with a general physician for which you must provide your own transportation.

What this means is that a LOT of those 30-40 million people ARE getting medical care, for free, on the taxpayers of their states...

1) Most of the uninsured are not seeking medical care as they are the young and healthy, the wealthy who pay for their own care and folks between jobs.

2) The rest are the working poor above the poverty line and illegal aliens. Expanding Medicaid over the past two decades to cover these folks has not slowed health care inflation one iota.

That being said, there is a free rider problem and I can support a program where folks are compelled to buy catastrophic and preventative health insurance with an HSA and this program is partially subsidized with a payroll tax ala Medicare as well as verification of immigration status and deportation of illegals

However, we need far more free market cost control reform such as eliminating all health insurance mandates, limiting medical malpractice to compensation for consequential medical expenses and expanding the supply of doctors.

Mike in Maryland said...

Bart DePalma said...
. . . we need far more free market cost control reform such as eliminating all health insurance mandates, limiting medical malpractice to compensation for consequential medical expenses and expanding the supply of doctors.

Maybe 'WE' need to do some research, and not listen to the propaganda screeched out by the insurance companies, big pharma, and the screeching monkeys of Faux News, Lush, Manthrax, bill O'LIElly, et. al.:

http://makethemaccountable.com/myth/RisingCostOfMedicalMalpracticeInsurance.htm

Warning - there's a lot of information on that page, with many different people chiming in with opinions, but I'm sure you can read it. Most of it also incorporates FACTs, which are very different from the propaganda you've marinated in for how many years.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Steve said...

Sure-fire way to make the benefits of health care plan good: require that members of Congress be on the plan, for their own health care.

Mike in Maryland said...

Steve said...
Sure-fire way to make the benefits of health care plan good: require that members of Congress be on the plan, for their own health care.

It is quite apparent that you know nothing about the health care plans, and the health care plans that Congresscritters have available to them.

Hint - their options are exactly the same as all other federal government employees have. The program is administered by the Office of Persoanal Management, and is called the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program (FEHB).

Hint - the FEHB allows federal government employees to buy insurance from insurance companies.

Now go do some edumacating of yourself on the FACTS, or go over to Freeptardland to sell your uninformed lies.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

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