7.06.2009

How Can the Climate Bill Get to 60 Votes?

Last week, we commissioned an analysis of voting on the Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill in the Senate, which was narrowly approved by the House with a relatively high amount of crossing of party lines: 44 Democratic nay votes, and 8 Republican yeas. The model used several variables, including lobbying contributions, per-capita carbon emissions in each state, and a Congressman's ideology, to attempt to explain/predict their vote on the climate bil. Today, we'll take that same analysis and apply it prospectively to the Senate.

But first, a few assumptions:

1. Al Franken has now jointed the Senate but we do not have any votes for him on which to form an ideology score. I am going to give him the numbes of his idol, Paul Wellsone. Does anybody really have a problem with my assuming that Franken, like Wellstone, is going to be very, very liberal? Didn't think so.
2. Lobbying contributions are scaled to reflect the fact that Senators raise more on average than Representatives do.
3. A more controversial assumption is that we're assuming that there won't be nay votes from the left, of which there were almost certainly three (DeFazio, Kucinich, Stark) in the House. In other words, the model as I've run it here treats those three as yea votes. The reason I'm making this assumption is because: (a) it's not so clear that DeFazio, Kucinih and Stark would have voted against the poll if their votes were needed for passage, and (b) this is just not something that seems to be in the gameplan of the progressives in the Senate; Russ Feingold of Wisconsin every once in a blue moon winds up being far enough to the left that he votes with the Republicans, but that's juts about it.

And a few caveats:

1. The Senate will be voting on a different bill than the House's version. The Senate's version might be more or less favorable to, say, farm-state interests than the House's, which could in turn alter the percentages.
2. The overall political tides may have shifted by the time the Senate considers the bill because of changes to the economy, Obama's approval rating, gas prices, and perhaps even the weather, etc.
3. The key vote in the Senate is not really the vote on final passage, which this model would seem to get at, but rather the vote on cloture, or breaking the filibuster, which would require 60 votes. It's not all that uncommon for a senator to vote for cloture and then against the underlying bill, or vice versa, although it seems to happen less often for major issues like climate change legislation.
4. These percentages are based on the relatively limited amount of knowledge embodied in the seven variables in the model; that should not be read to imply that there aren't other factors, both tangible and intangible, that wouldn't have a significant impact.

With all of that said, here are how the 100 senators rank in order of most to least likely to vote for the bill.



The only way any of these senators would vote against the climate bill is if they're opposing it from the left, a possibility which we're specifically ignoring for this analysis for the reasons described above. Diane Feinstein can be weird, I guess, but is unlikely to be so on climate legislation sponsored by her colleague Barbara Boxer -- plus California is a low-carbon state that already has some alternative-energy infrastructure in place and could be a big net beneficiary from this bill.



There are a few bullets for the Democrats to dodge here, but none of them would seem to be fatal:

* Joe Liberman is Joe Lieberman. But he also sponsored a cap-and-trade bill last year, takes no money from the coal industry, and lives in a deeply blue, low-carbon state.
* Tom Carper relies pretty heavily on corporate donations, but the coal industry isn't really one of his suitors and he usually falls into line on major Democratic policy priorities.
* Harry Reid takes a lot of coal money, although he also takes a lot of nuclear and alternative energy money and is, of course, the Majority Leader. And hard as it is to believe considering all the carbon that must be consumed to air-condition the Vegas Strip (it's 2 in the morning here and still 90 degrees outside), Nevada is not a particularly carbon-intensive state. So I don't think Reid's yea vote is in much doubt, but the one way he could be problematic is if he's unwilling to compromise on nuclear energy -- a big chip the Democrats have in their arsenal -- because of concerns over Yucca Mountain.

A much more serious concern for the Democrats is Sherrod Brown of Ohio, who voted against cloture on last year's bill. Brown's public statements have generally indicated lukewarm support for the bill, but also that he and the two senators from Michigan -- Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow -- are going to require some compromises to protect the auto industry. At the end of the day, a lot has already been done to assist the auto industry, and Brown, Levin and Stabenow are mainline liberal Democrats -- their votes can probably be whipped, and their demands for compromise probably revealed to be bluffs. But their votes on the climate bill aren't as certain as the analysis indicates.



Now we get into a set of Democrats who can occasionally be conservative, sometimes in order to protect corporate interests. But the overall combination that befalls each one breaks down in favorable enough ways that the Democrats probably have nothing really to worry about. Mark Warner, for instance, while taking a lot of money from coal, also takes some money from alt/nuclear and lives in a fairly low-carbon state.



These six votes would get the Democrats to 50, which would allow Joe Biden to break the tie -- if not for that whole filibuster thing. You're probably seeing some names here that you're a bit surprised to see. Montana consumes a fair amount of carbon, and Max Baucus is pretty conservative, which seems like a bad combination -- until you see how much money he's getting from alt/nuclear PACs -- the most of any senator on a per-cycle basis. Arlen Specter was generally thought to be sympathetic to cap-and-trade legislation -- and that was before he turned into a Democrat. North Carolina's economy is fairly low-carbon, which should help to prevent Kay Hagan from defecting. The other two senators on this list, however, could be more problematic for the Democrats, as Claire McCaskill has already tweeted her concerns about cap-and-trade, and as Tim Johnson voted against cloture last year -- although South Dakota's economy, for whatever reason, is much less carbon-intensive than North Dakota's.



These are three senators for whom the percentages tended to move quite a bit based on relatively small tweaks to the model. Snowe and Collins are almost certainly going to be necessary parts of any path to 60 votes and are almost certainly going to be easier gets than at least half a dozen Democrats. And I tend to think the model has erred a bit pessimistic on them here. But that doesn't mean their votes are assured.

Mark Begich, in Alaska, might be the more interesting case. Alaska is such an outlier in so many ways in terms of energy production that it's hard to know exactly how all the incentives line up, but Begich claimed on his campaign website that he was a support of cap-and-trade, and Alaska also has its doses of environmentalism. If the Democrats decide to pull some trigger to get Lisa Murkowski's vote -- ANWR drilling, for example, which is highly popular in Alaska -- they'll undoubtedly be safe on Begich by that point.

To this point, even if everything has gone perfectly for the Democrats, that would still only put them up to 53 out of the filibuster-breaking 60. They'd then need to find 7 votes out of this group of 9, none of which are going to be easy:



North Dakota, West Virginia and Louisiana rank 2nd through 4th in per-capita carbon emissions. Five of their six senators also happen to be Democrats. If the Democrats could swap, say, Rockefeller and Byrd for two seats in Arizona, the going would be significantly easier on this issue. Byrd in particular: let's face it -- it's not clear how many more votes Robert Byrd is going to cast in the Senate period, and at the end of the day, I don't see one of his final ones being something that could significantly impair the coal industry in West Virginia. The path of least resistance to 60 votes probably lies elsewhere. Rockefeller, though, voted aye on cloture on last year's bill and is probably attainable.

Mary Landireu and Byron Dorgan, on the other hand, voted 'no' on cloture last year. Dorgan chairs the Democratic Policy Committee and could perhaps be more vulnerable to peer pressure than certain other senators, but I don't know what you do with the more conservative Landireu, unless you can spin some offshore drilling compromise to her liking or persuade her of the linkage between global warming and hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico. Then there's Ben Nelson, who's a problem for the Democrats on nearly everything, plus Evan Bayh, Blanche Lincoln and Mark Pryor, who can probably expect a few late-night phone calls from Rahm Emanuel.



One pattern we've seen this year, but which might be too recent to be picked up by DW-NOMINATE scores, is that the House Republicans seem to be sticking much more to the party line than the Senate Republicans. That could make these votes a bit more gettable than the numbers above indicate. Martinez voted 'yea' on cloture last year and Florida is a low-carbon state which might suffer significantly from a sea-level rise or an increase in Atlantic Hurricanes, but the fact that he's retiring may actually harm the Democrats, since I'd gather that cap-and-trade is reasonably popular down in Florida (which passed a statewide permutation on the policy last year). Speaking of which, I'd love to see some polling on cap-and-trade in New Hampshire, which is both pro-business and pro-environment. John McCain pushed for a cap-and-trade policy on the campaign trail but has since claimed Obama is going about doing it in the wrong way. Perhaps he could be persuaded to vote to break the filibuster even if he votes no on the underlying bill. The one case where the model seems to be pretty clearly out to lunch is that of Chuck Grassley of Iowa, who has already struck a highly skeptical tone about cap-and-trade.



The two names you sometimes hear mentioned from this list are Lindsay Graham and Lisa Murkowski. Graham has not been as "bipartisan" on core issues as he seems to want to make himself out to be, however, and lives in a state with very high unemployment. Perhaps you could get him if you added some offshore drilling provisions, which would probably benefit South Carolina, but I wouldn't expect it to be easy. Murkowski, likewise, sounds basically skeptical but perhaps open to a compromise; again, the permutations of the way the bill might refract onto Alaska's economy are complicated, and so I won't feign complete knowledge here.

* * *

Overall, this is a slightly better assessment than I expected. Although the model considers only 52 Senators to be more likely than not to vote for the bill, there are somewhere between 62-66 votes that are perhaps potentially in play. But Joe Mauer-like precision will be required in targeting the undecided, and further compromises would almost certainly be needed, some of them designed to placate as few as one senator. The question is how many ornaments the Democrats could place on the Christmas Tree before it starts to collapse under its own weight.

85 comments

Ohio-Papa said...

What the ACES bill is missing is a grass-roots effort from voters to put the heat on lawmakers for a YES vote. I have written a letter to the editor of my local paper(see below), and encourage all readers to do the same to help get ACES improved and passed.

Your congressmen's phone numbers and emails are available at http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/.

Thanks

*************

The American Clean Energy and Security bill, otherwise known as “cap and trade”, was narrowly passed by the House of Representatives last month. Its purpose is to reduce the emissions causing climate change, and shift our energy use from fossil fuels to renewable resources, like wind, solar and biofuel. There are also provisions requiring higher fuel efficiency.
The bill has been watered down significantly from its introduction, to accommodate the concerns of coal-state lawmakers, and due to pressure from the coal, oil and agriculture lobbyists. Even as weak as it is, it may not pass the more ”business-friendly” Senate.
If strengthened and implemented, the ACES bill can spark a green revolution desperately needed to renew America’s economy and environment for the twenty-first century.
When you go to a buffet restaurant, you tend to eat more than if you had to pay for each item, right? Likewise, ACES rules put the true cost of dirty energy use (including emissions we all pay for through poorer health and deteriorating environment) into its purchase price, so that we don’t “over-indulge” in dirty energy use.
This bill will provide the price signal that will spur the market to prefer cleaner fuel, and our business community will understand that renewable fuels are where the future profits lie. New energy, infrastructure, and supporting companies will grow to provide better-paying, higher-skill jobs that help make our country more efficient and self-sufficient.
Our congressman Charlie Wilson voted against ACES, one of 44 out of 256 Democrats to do so. His vote is at odds with his official website, which states, “I will continue to promote wind, solar and geothermal sources of energy while also encouraging proven energy sources such as nuclear and natural gas. Finally, I pledge to support legislation that increases energy efficiency and rebuilds our energy infrastructure in order to reduce the demand that has driven prices to record highs.”
A Senate version of ACES will be voted on soon, and then the two versions will be merged before a final vote before both bodies. These upcoming votes give all Ohioans a chance to make a difference now!
Please support a strong economy and healthy future for America by calling Charlie Wilson at (202) 225-5705, Sen. George Voinovich at 202-224-3353, and Sen. Sherrod Brown at 202-224-2315, and tell them to vote YES on ACES, or you’ll vote NO to their re-election.

markymark said...

Interesting stuff, particularly into the kinds of thought processes vote counters would make when calculating the possible passage of a bill.

This is a very interesting bill in a lot of ways. I am not convinced that Cap-and-trade is what is needed, and I still worry that it puts to much reliance on keeping carbon based fuels in the mix. It could be a first step, but are there any signs of the next steps happening? I would agree with a conservative who suggests that this puts non-carbon-based energy independence too much in the hands of government. [if any of them could rely enough on accurate science to believe in the need for non carbon based solutions.] I think government needs to be involved but I think that a lot of these solutions are going to come from a need for efficiency. Thats not always something government is good at thinking about! Its going to be about how can the energy and car companies provide cheaper energy production outside of the carbon based side of things.

Brian said...

Interesting analysis.

I think McCaskill will probably ultimately vote "yea." I think she has Presidential ambitions, and a "nay" vote on this would be very detrimental to said ambitions.

Juris said...

Another tour de force analysis. Gives us lots to work with as we watch events unfold.

Luke said...

Having just come back from Maine, their entire coastline is directly downwind of NYC and Boston. This makes Maine an incredibly hazy state, which of course cuts into the ability to appreciate is hilly coastline and parks--its only tourist attractions, really.

Furthermore, there's a lot of hydroelectric power to be generated in the state.

It would be really stupid for Snowe and Collins to ideologically vote against a bill that would pretty indisputably benefit their constituents.

Wayward Son said...

Obviously, all the Republicans will happily vote for cloture, as there are mountains of evidence pointing at their deeply-held belief in the 'up or down vote' principle, circa 2003-2005.

J. Scott said...

Just have the 60 Democrats vote for cloture. Then have an up or down vote.

Problem solved.

Edward said...

Of course this analysis leaves out all of the other pressures on Senators. I think the most effective right now is Larry Lessig's Change Congress, which got Ben Nelson to flip on health care. They highlighted contributions to Nelson from the insurance industry in an inexpensive mailing and press release. CC is currently targeting Landrieu with an ad that is getting national press before it runs.

Even a little more money would let CC do the same on energy.

Bob from Illinois said...
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Bob from Illinois said...

Nate:

Thanks for another thoughtful and detailed analysis. The contrast in quality and value between this and some of the opinion pieces posted here (especially the worthless one) on Franken) is startling.

I'd rather see fewer, higher quality posts than some of the dross you're allowing to dilute this otherwise great site.

Paul said...

Nate, maybe you should reevaluate the votes of Baucus and Tester.

Coal is very important to Montana. Montana is one of the few states that has a surplus in its budget. That is largely due to the coal separation tax. Granted Montana is only the 5th largest producer of coal, it is the state with the largest known coal reserves, 25% of the nations total coal reserves. That is the reason Montana Governor Schweitzer carries around a vial of synthetic gasoline made from coal.The coal that is buried under Montana is the type most commonly burned in electric generation plants because of the low sulfur content.

Coal is a big deal in Montana. I am not sure that the Senators from Montana would vote against their states interests.

aztronut said...

Thanks for the analysis I requested and expected as soon as I saw your piece on the House vote. There's a lot of good information here but I'm still trying to figure out the "Joe Mauer-like precision" bit. I can only assume that the referenced precision would be describing his throwing accuracy, but a 40 CS% isn't really very good in absolute terms. Now, relative to the rest of the league 40% is damn good but I'm not looking for this to be coin-flip type of opportunity and I believe your analysis suggests a better than even chance of passage for serious CC legislation. That said, I'd be shocked if McCain turned out to be a positive force in this process.

aztronut said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Rudy said...

Nice number crunching, but the analysis suffers from an obvious bias slant toward a desired conclusion. At least Nate acknowledges the likely hopelessness of the quest.

The same numbers analyzed from the contrary position, would indicate less than 50% support.

The Senate isn't as easily bamboozled into economy-damaging legislation as is the House.

Paul said...

Rudy, in the short term cap and trade would not damage the economy. The CBO has determined that the cost to the consumer would be about $175 a year per family. $15 a month is not a huge price.

In the long term cap and trade will be beneficial to the economy. The creation of greener energy will spur investment and job creation. That is not even taking into account the cost of climate change, which would be significant in the long term.

xharped said...

We'll see what happens, but this blog entry from AWEA (Big Wind) suggests Pr(Y)=7.19% for Sen. Grassley might be way too low.
http://www.awea.org/blog/index.php?mode=viewid&post_id=141

Sacto Joe said...

There is are a couple of variables I would like to see included in these analyses. Who, of these Senators and Representatives, is due up for re-election in the next go-around, and who is most vulnerable to which special interests?

PeteKent said...

I really hope this disastrous bill passes.

The GOP Senate and House can reverse it in 2013 fulfilling one of their chief campaign pledges to a disgusted and disgruntled electorate.

Careful what you wish for!

petekent01 (on twitter)

Glenn Doty said...

I guess Sacto Joe beat me to it, but you really need to include a variable for "time span to re-election."

Those that are up for re-election in 2010 are probably worried about the potential impact of voters' bills increasing just before the election. For those being elected in 2012, they'll have some national coverage in the debate because Obama will be defending the bill (assuming it passes), but the sticker shock will still be a factor (though much more faint). Those that aren't up until 2014 won't worry about it. Without the national campaign to dust up the debate and with 5 years of being in effect, there is no potential fallout from a yes vote due to the voter's electricity bills, and there's a high likelihood that many people will be employed in either alternative energy or energy conservation if the market has 5 years of adjustment.

I think this is an extremely important oversight for the senate, though it cannot be tested for in the house vote (of course) since everyone in the house is up for re-election in 2010.

Carolyn said...

I'm surprised Lugar (R-IN) is included on the long-shot list. Lugar is probably the most "Green" Republican Senator out there, and champions all sorts of efforts to lead to further energy efficiency and independence. (http://lugar.senate.gov/energy/) I expect in this case he'd go against the demographics of his state and vote for the bill.

Nis Jørgensen said...

@Sacto Joe and Glenn Doty:

What Nate did was analyze the house vote, and apply the outcome to the Senators

Thus we have no data on the effect of "time to reelection", so we cannot apply it to the senate vote.
We can of course discuss what the effect might be - but we cannot model it on the data abvailable.

Martha said...

I think you are not taking into account concerns of Senators in the Farm states. They may have some real concerns and may need to consider those constituents some more. Look at Bill Foster and his vote in the House

Cugel said...

The problem with Global Warming is that there is NO way to solve the problem that won't hurt existing coal, gas and automotive industries or cost a lot of money.

Yes, green industries will provide lots of jobs in the future --- the Germans are already investing millions of taxpayer dollars in cornering the world market for solar panels. But, hurting the coal and oil industries to benefit alternative energy causes howls of outrage from the vested interests. And Congress is bought and paid for.

Thus, there are no "popular" solutions. Given the craven stupidity of the United States Senate in general and the entrenched ignorance of the Global-Warming deniers in the media and public, it's pretty clear that nothing useful can pass this session of Congress.

I'd be amazed if any bill passes at all. And if one does limp across the finish line somehow, it will only be because all real substance has been drained out of it and it's a "solution" that won't upset any business interests and thus, won't accomplish anything real.

You would need to replace about 5 or 6 more Republican global warming deniers and Democratic industry sock-puppets to have a real bill.

Krista said...

Thanks for the post, Nate. Hope you're staying ahead of the house!

JRoger said...

thanks for the list. so now i can know that my 2 senators will vote no and i will email them to vote now. Ha what clowns.

Wagster said...

I think what this analysis misses is the reason the administration was willing to give up reconciliation for the Climate Bill (which it pointedly did not do for health care.) If no bill is passed, then according to the recent Court decision, the EPA can pass carbon legislation by diktat. I think what is needed here is 50 votes, not 60, since the administration can threaten industry lobbyists and opponents with draconian measures if no bill is produced.

Matthew said...

The thing is with Al Franken taking his seat in the Senate tomorrow is that Democrats don't truly need 60 votes anymore to pass legislation -- just to get past cloture. If they can maintain party discipline enough to force an up-or-down vote, then they only need 50 votes (+Biden if it really came down to that), which qualifies as the "likely yes" or better.

Sacto Joe said...

Cugel, you are correct in saying that clean energy costs more than dirty energy, but that's partially because the true cost of dirty energy is hidden.

Does this bill help to "unhide" those costs, and if so, do those costs get "hooked" to the dirty energy? Because that's what has to happen if we want to level the energy playing field.

IMHO, two things should be done ASAP to move in this direction:

1. Tax the hades out of carbon-based fuels, then find a mechanism for rebating most of that tax back to the lower and middle class (the upper class can afford to fend for itself).

2. Drop the national speed limit to no more than 60 MPH and ENFORCE it.

Neither of these is part of this bill, insofar as I am aware.

Mike in Maryland said...

Carolyn,

I agree with your comments about Lugar.

Then add in that Indiana has a very large economic interest in the auto industry. Not only are there several auto assembly plants throughout the state, but many businesses are parts makers and suppliers to the new vehicle market AND to the replacement parts market.

Any concessions that might be needed to get Levin, Stabenow, Brown or Bayh to vote for cloture would also cause Lugar's 'favorables' (in terms of voting for cloture) to go significantly higher, IMO.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Steko said...

Obama has an ace up his sleeve to push cap and trade through in the EPA. The EPA has the authority to establish carbon standards itself through the Clean Air Act and the form of those standards could well be cap and trade. EPA action is also very likely to be much less lenient then ACES. So a few weeks before the floor vote Obama has the EPA start making noise and then this bill (which takes this right away from the EPA) can be sold by blue dogs as the middle path.

Stephen said...

Hey, Nate, do you have any opinion on Matt Taibbi's recent article, specifically his fears that this kind of cap-and-trade plan could end up being another way to move the dollars of every-day joes into wallstreet's hands?

James Salsman said...

The solution is simple: horse-trade some nice windmill and plug-in hybrid factories to the coal state blue dogs, and don't forget their primary challengers if they don't play along.

Also, remind them of rising flood insurance rates.

Belinda Smith said...

Yes, grass-roots efforts are needed!

http://www.1sky.org/ has a helpful plan if you are unsure of what to do.

Once you sign up, they help you with letter templates that you can put into your own words, etc.

I'm quite sure most of the regular posters on Nate's blog don't need help, but all the addresses to your local editors are there which is helpful.

twister823 said...

'Joe Liberman is Joe Lieberman.'

Best typo ever.

Scott said...

2. Drop the national speed limit to no more than 60 MPH and ENFORCE it.

As a Republican, I HOPE any bill that passes through Congress includes something like this. The cap and trade plan itself does not raise much ire in the public because it's largely behind-the-scenes. Sure, electricity prices will go up, but seeing a slightly higher bill every month won't bother anyone who can afford to pay for it.

If people start getting tickets for driving 65 on what used to be a 70 MPH road, they'll be absolutely furious. If they find out Obama and the Democrats were behind it, they will be even more furious. You might as well write the fundraising letters for us.

Hu Chi said...

IMHO, the true cost of doing nothing on this issue may be everything we've got, and by definition, we can't afford that.

My rep. DeFazio's objection is that the trading part of cap and trade will have too many loopholes to prevent the usual energy industry hijinks. He may well be right, but Nat's point about how he would have voted had his vote been needed is a good one.

Energy corp's are lying as fast as they can on TV about what's needed, just as tobacco companies did before. Smoke is smoke. Meanwhile Oregon gets brown sunsets from Chinese coal plants...

Hu Chi said...

"Nate's point" sorry

Stephen said...

After the house vote my super conservative friend contacted our US Senator's Nelson and Martinez. She got a response from Martinez this morning. She was expecting a flat out No vote. In so many words it implied he would be open to supporting the energy bill, using terms such as "protecting our environment from the forces of climate change." I was pleasantly surprised, hoping he does the right thing when the bill comes up for a vote, he has nothing to lose.

Dan said...

It is hard to even know where to start with regard to how bad the Cap 'n' Tax bill is.

It isn't "green", it doesn't lower carbon emissions significantly enough to make any difference to global temperature (as if that was even a good idea in the first place - which it isn't), it INCREASES dependency on imported oil, and to top it off, it is an economy killer.

What statists like most of those posting here, don't recognize is that the single BIGGEST boost to the greening of American (and the world as a whole) is, wait for it...

PROSPERITY!

You can talk all day about the "hidden costs of dirty energy" or other such mealy mouthed nonsense but it is undeniable that wealthier countries are also cleaner countries. This is a self-evident truth. What poor country can you point to that can afford to mandate green space, national parks, smoke stack scrubbing, and CAFE standards?

NONE

No, the single best thing we could do is abandon this Marxist, abortion of a bill and help restart this economy:

1. Open up all domestic oil and natural gas reserves in the US. This would immediately address the so-called aim of "Cap and Trade" to "reduce dependence on foreign oil" with the added benefit of putting millions of Americans back to work after they lost their livelihoods last year when Peolosi and Reid started putting more reserves off-limits (thereby driving oil speculation).

2. Get rid of Ethanol and similar totalitarian mandates. This bill, along with several in the past promotes one of the most idiotic energy policies of all time: burning food for energy. It takes 1.5 gallons of gasoline to produce a gallon of Ethanol and starves the third world in the process. How stupid is that???

3. Take all the useless R&D subsidies the Feds currently spend on Solar and Wind, and, if we must, divert them to making a cleaner burning internal combustion engine. Cars are here to stay, as is gasoline (we have 420 years of KNOWN oil reserves in this country alone). Electric vehicles are idiotic environment killers yet they are promoted by empty-headed legislators like Henry Waxman. The ICE is the future and we should just get used to that fact.

4. Recognize that a strong economy encourages people to invest in a cleaner environment. If the populace is just barely surviving, they don't care whether a Leftist wants to see the foothills of Maine or not. And they certainly want to be able to sell their house without having an eco-nazi having to inspect their appliances and windows before they can sell it like Waxman wants to have happen.

Oh, and by the way. Here's a memo to you AGW flat-earthers: The sun is experiencing a solar minimum and this explains the last 10 years of cooling (and the next 30 of predicted global cooling). My question for you, given that a warmer planet is a more prosperous planet, is how do we go about CAUSING warming right now when we know from history that warming is a Good Thing?

(and by the way, driving SUVs more won't make a dent - we'll still find ourselves freezing our collective arses off in a few years time no matter HOW much C02 we spew into the atmosphere).

Dan said...

Hu Chi said:

"Smoke is smoke. Meanwhile Oregon gets brown sunsets from Chinese coal plants..."

This is just plain sophomoric.

A. Oregon gets "brown sunsets" (actually more like orange and only in the Willamette Valley and only occasionally during the summer) because one of Oregon's leading crops is grass turf and seeds.

After harvest these grass fields have to be burned in order to kill insects (because environmentalists have pretty much gotten proper insecticides banned). The resulting smoke (which contains no poisons) causes these sunsets.

B. China will never put something as stupid as a carbon tax on themselves so even if they were causing Oregon's spectacular summer sunsets, we couldn't do a thing about it.

C. Smoke in the atmosphere causes COOLING because, guess what, it blocks out Mr. Sun. This was the whole point of Carl Sagan's fear mongering about a "Nuclear Winter".

Sheesh.

Mike in Maryland said...

Scott said...
If people start getting tickets for driving 65 on what used to be a 70 MPH road, they'll be absolutely furious.

Does the 'law and order' party encourage people to break the law? After all, exceeding the posted speed limit IS breaking the law, isn't it?

I've seen many froth-mouthed GOOPers complaining about getting tickets for doing 'only 10 mph above the speed limit', and accusing the jurisdiction of instituting the speed limit only to 'fleece the law-abiding taxpayer'.

You don't see the irony of the admission of speeding contrasted with the assertion of being 'law-abiding'?

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Mike in Maryland said...

Dan said...
It isn't "green", it doesn't lower carbon emissions significantly enough to make any difference to global temperature (as if that was even a good idea in the first place - which it isn't),

OK, start listing the reasons why trying to make a difference in global temperatures is NOT a good idea.

We'll wait with bated breath.

Well, on second thought, we won't wait with bated breath, since we'd all pass out before you came up with even ONE cogent and appropriate reason for not trying, let alone succeeding, in trying to abate human-caused Global Climate Change.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

MidPointMan said...

This bill really does not have much of a chance. With talk of a second stimulus starting in earnest it is too easy to paint this as "too risky" right now. The cost is real and will impact job creation negatively over the short-term. Why? Because it creates a lot of uncertainty for anyone hoping to build anything. How can you build a business case for any capital investment if key input costs may double in the next 24 months? You cannot. The prudent thing becomes waiting to see how the bill is implemented. Waiting is what is killing the economy. Anything that adds uncertainty to an unstable situation will hurt the economy.

Moderate Dems will get away with saying "Let's take this up when the economy is on safer footing.". That is both sensible and prudent and not against cap and trade.

This bill dies a quiet death on cloture. There is not the energy for it. Health Care will test enough of the moderates .

Hu Chi said...

As someone who lives where he can see the Willamette Valley every day, I'm not talking about field burning.

Although the practice has just been banned by the state legislature for being more deleterious to public health and tourism than it is helpful to the grass seed industry, field burning is something we've lived with in the summer for decades. It does produce haze and orange/brown sunsets (which nobody I know in western Oregon seems to appreciate) which are far more dramatic that the usual, more subtle Chinese-influenced ones.

The "proper insecticides" and herbicides are now what makes the Willamette River hazardous to swim in, thank you very much.

The sunsets I refer to can be seen from the Oregon coast at any time of year, and yes it's kind of a brownish orange haze. Local meteorologists comment on the Chinese origin of the haze occasionally. It's not exactly a secret.

I presume a good cigarette ad agent can come up with an attractive description of the color of a cancer victim's lungs.

It is particulates that cause haze around here, and you are correct that the particulates alone may help shade and thus cool the earth. The CO2 is the real climate problem, and the particulates are a mere health hazard and eyesore, but the presence of particulates indicates the production of CO2 (in this case Chinese CO2) which is what I object to, and what is causing loss of polar ice, among other things.

There are scenarios where we can manage particulates (up or down) while cutting CO2, which may become necessary at some point. As of now, where there's smoke, there's fire.

As to the quality of Oregon sunsets, we get plenty of dust from things like tilling fields in the wind to need field burning or Chinese coal to spice them up.

The grass seed industry has whined for years about how badly they need to burn their fields, but the benefit is marginal and the public cost is significant. Hence the ban. (Those darn environmentalists!)

Some years ago there was a multiple-death chain-reaction accident on I-5 caused by field burning smoke (like heavy fog). Were the cost of that one incident to be calculated fairly, I dare say it would offset many years of field burning profits.

So if you believe smoke helps keep us cool (other factors notwithstanding), why was Sagan's claim "fear mongering"? You think his premise was correct but his conclusion was wrong?

We don't control China, but CO2 is bad news at the levels we're all spewing it out. Perhaps we might set an example of how to phase it out before it's too late.

There's a difference between fear mongering and warning the public.

Sheesh.

Dan said...

Hu Chi:

You're changing the subject. Deaths from smoke on I5 is not a reason to tax carbon emissions. The two issues are distinct and thus, a Red Herring alert is in order.

Secondly, my point stands regarding China. We have ZERO control over Chinese CO2 output. Remember, this is the nation that is building coal fired electric plants like there is no tomorrow.

My point about Sagan is that he was using radical climate change hyperbole as a tactic to promote a nuclear freeze (a policy, had it been adopted, would have lost us the cold war). His science was probably correct inasmuch as the large amount of dust thrown into the atmosphere in a nuke exchange would block out the sun (just like Chinese coal smoke will do to the sky over Lincoln City, Oregon one day I guess.

James Salsman said...

Dan,

You don't know the proportion of particulates scrubbed from coal plants, do you?

Hu Chi said...

Dan

The Chinese coal burning haze just shows the interconnectedness of the system. What they do or don't do doesn't make our coal burning practices right.

Any reduction of coal and oil burning anywhere in the world reduces the total CO2 in the atmosphere. As an American I say let's start here.

Burning fossil fuels is analogous to having a global cigarette habit. Those with a vested interest in either will do whatever they can to avoid losing money, regardless of the ultimate consequences.

A nuclear freeze would have lost us the Cold War? I don't think so. Would we be speaking Russian now?

joenotcharles said...

You mentioned that Alaska is often hard to read. One thing that's important to remember for this issue is that, while my impression is that Alaskan politics is mainly libertarian/conservative, the Arctic is hit a LOT sooner than the rest of the country by climate change. Alaskan glaciers have are already visibly vanishing to the point that climate change denial is pretty much impossible there, removing one part of the conservative NO argument. (It's possible that the remaining part, "it's bad for business," would lead many Alaskans to push for other measures rather than getting behind cap-and-trade, of course.)

Dan said...

Mike in Maryland said:

OK, start listing the reasons why trying to make a difference in global temperatures is NOT a good idea. We'll wait with bated breath.

No need to wait long:

1. There is no reason to think that our current global temperature is "ideal". Historical evidence demonstrates that it has been warmer in the past than it is now and during those times, civilization thrived. Global temperatures have risen and fallen. When they have been warmer than today, life was better. When colder, life was harsh and millions died.

2. There is a great deal of historical evidence that global cooling caused what we today call, the Dark Ages.

Read Professor Emeritus of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia, S. Fred Singer's article on the effects of global temperature on civilization here.

3. Attempts to affect carbon output have been on the books in Europe for several years with no discernible effect whatsoever except to cost massive amounts of taxpayer funds. At a time when economies are plunging into oblivion, spending money on the myth of AGW is something that these countries are realizing is a fool's errand.

4. If you follow the research, you would know that global warming, when it was occurring about a decade ago, was happening at night. It doesn't take much common sense to realize that warmer nights are a very good thing as they result in LESS ENERGY USE.

In fact, a warmer planet would be hugely beneficial to the environment since it would require less heating oil and electricity to keep homes warm at night, especially in the winter. There is no evidence that there was any DAYTIME warming in the 80s and 90s except in big cities which are large heat sinks.

Of course now, temperatures are declining so the point is moot.

5. Related to point #4, warmer nights would mean we could grow produce in a larger temperate zone than we currently have. At one time grapes were grown in Scotland (but too cold now to do). A larger global growing zone means less starving masses.

6. The cost of instituting fascist policy schemes like Cap and Trade are massive and will plunge our economy into a depression and for what? Even the most ardent Cap and Trade advocates say that the effect of the legislation will be at best, the lowering of global temperature by .1 degree C over a 100 year period. And of course, this would be at night when we really need it to be WARMER.

7. The planet has a natural methodology for dealing with increases of carbon in the atmosphere. Plants absorb C02 and thus, if more C02 is in the atmosphere, more plants grow. Plants are good BTW.

Once equilibrium is reached, less plants grow. In any case, C02 is found in such small amounts in the atmosphere that our impact is infinitesimally small. To the degree we do contribute C02 to the atmophsere, the above points could be used to argue that our impact is a good thing. The only problem is that asserting C02 causes warming is so much scientific nonsense.

So to summarize:

Global Warming would be good if it was happening - which it is not but even if it were, we have no control over it because C02 is a trace gas in the atmosphere, the man-made portion of which is a tiny percentage. If we found that civilization would fall into another Dark Ages unless we could figure out a way to WARM the planet, there is no current way for man to do that since THE SUN and other natural phenomena is what affects global temperature.

Dan said...

To joenotcharles:

You throw out a canard about conservatives losing the argument on arctic ice. Far from it. I know of no argument from our side that makes the claims you intimate. But you might consider the science:

Patrick J Michaels writes "The Arctic cap loses ice in the summer, but no one bothers to mention that we only began collecting data on it in 1979, at the end of the second-coldest period in the Arctic in a century. The ice had to be abnormally expanded then."

In any case, melting arctic ice is not a bad thing and I challenge you to demonstrate otherwise.

Dan said...

Hu Chi writes:

"The Chinese coal burning haze just shows the interconnectedness of the system."

How so? All it really shows is that we are down wind of China. If there is any "interconnectedness" it is an economic one. As the statists in our federal government have instituted massive damaging tax and regulatory policies on our own economy, they have shifted the balance of economic power to China. China doesn't care about the environment but they do care about taking command of the world economic engine. By the time the Dems are done with the American economy, all industry will reside overseas where we have zero control of environmental policy.

"What they do or don't do doesn't make our coal burning practices right."

Well, first of all, who are you to legislate your morality on the rest of us? What makes burning coal wrong?" Be specific. Now, personally, I would much prefer nuclear or NG fired electric plants but Leftists in this country won't allow any growth in this area so we are left with coal in many parts of the country.

Still, Hu Chi, if you think it is "wrong" to burn coal, then please don't use any electricity generated by it. Be a leader.

"Any reduction of coal and oil burning anywhere in the world reduces the total CO2 in the atmosphere."

By such an infinitesimally small amount that it has the effect of ZERO impact on the environment. Just an FYI, probably the greatest danger from coal is not C02 emissions but radiation emissions. More uranium is released into the atmosphere from a single coal fired electric plant in a day than any American nuclear plant has EVER released.

"Burning fossil fuels is analogous to having a global cigarette habit."

So you say but then again, I argue that this a warped sense of morality on your part. "Fossil fuel" is the engine of an advanced civilization. Without it, people live in squaller and disease. Compare the number of people in our country who die as the result of breathing "fossil fuel" polluted air vs. 3rd World deaths because they have little to no "fossil fuels" to produce electricity for refrigeration, heat, cooling, or really any industry of note. Thousands of villages in Africa would be brought out of the middle ages with the benefit of electricity. Your philosophy sentences them to a short life of disease and misery.

"Those with a vested interest in either will do whatever they can to avoid losing money, regardless of the ultimate consequences."

I'm curious what these so called "consequences" are. I have yet to see anyone articulate them with any veracity. Meanwhile, you type out your anti-oil statements on a computer made pretty much entirely with the use of fossil fuels.

My suggestion; You say let's start with America. How about if you do one better and start with YOU, personally. YOU lead the way and cease using fossil fuels. Then let us know how that is working out for you.

Pragmatus said...

Doctor Dan Who…

The claim that global cooling caused the Dark Ages is ludicrous. If you believe that you have zero understanding of physics, meteorology, history or the development of civilization.

Regarding the Arctic ice cap, I don’t know what you’ve been reading but the search for the Northwest Passage has been going on since the 1600s, when Henry Hudson was the first European to visit Hudson’s Bay. Scrupulous records of ice in the area of the Northwest Passage have been kept from the late 1700s, and it is only within the last few years that the Passage has been navigable. In case you don’t understand the link, the amount of NP ice and the ice cap over the Arctic Ocean are directly related (i.e. when one gets smaller, so does the other, since they are both part of the same ice field.)

Dan said...

Pragmatus:

The link between global temperature and the Dark Ages is settled history. What is not settled is what caused the cooling.

By the way, I posted what I "have been reading" (ironic that you missed reading what I posted) on this point. There is zero evidence that measurements of the thickness of the arctic ice cap were made in the 1600s. And I don't think you fully understand the meaning of the word "Scrupulous".

But again, this is all beside the point since:

a. thinning arctic ice has no negative effect on the planet and
b. the thinning is not caused by humans so it is more of a curiosity than anything.


Nevertheless, if you do have information about ice thickness prior to 1979 you might want to email the Polar Ice Group at the University of Illinois. That's as far back as they have data.

Dumb Canuck said...

Nate - any idea on whether this analysis was completed with or without the recent World Trade Organization discussion on the probable viability of border carbon tariffs accounted for?

Mike in Maryland said...

Dan said...
1. There is no reason to think that our current global temperature is "ideal".

Right off the bat, you show your ignorance. Evolution states that there is NO ideal temperature, but that organisms adapt to the environment when it changes, or they die as a species.

Historical evidence demonstrates that it has been warmer in the past than it is now

And? Yes, it has. It also has been colder. But the CHANGE in environment has RARELY been so abrupt, and when it has, it has been the result of massive external factors (super-volcanoes erupting; asteroid strikes; etc.), and when those changes occur, it has massive detrimental effects on life on earth (think the extinction of the dinosaurs).

2. There is a great deal of historical evidence that global cooling caused what we today call, the Dark Ages.

To most of the readers of this blog who studied history, this is news to us. Most historians recognize the Dark Ages as partially and principally being caused by the fall of the Western Roman Empire and nothing of similar nature filling the void, except for a very corrupt Catholic Church.

Do you have any reputable sites that explain how global cooling caused the Dark Ages? If so, produce them. And Singer is NOT a reputable source.

3. Attempts to affect carbon output have been on the books in Europe for several years with no discernible effect whatsoever except to cost massive amounts of taxpayer funds. At a time when economies are plunging into oblivion, spending money on the myth of AGW is something that these countries are realizing is a fool's errand.

Proof? And also provide proof of AGW being a 'myth'.

4. [] . . . Of course now, temperatures are declining so the point is moot.

Proof of slight temperature declines from the 30-year average over a period of 10 years, or temperature declines over a significant geologic time period? Got proof of such temperature declines over even 100 years, let alone 300 years to go back before the Industrial Revolution?

5. Related to point #4, warmer nights would mean we could grow produce in a larger temperate zone than we currently have. At one time grapes were grown in Scotland (but too cold now to do). A larger global growing zone means less starving masses.

Global Climate Change also takes into account changes in rainfall distribution. Higher temperatures mean more evaporation, which means rainfall patters change, which means some places that get little precipitation will get even less; some places that get adequate precipitation will get the same amount, but in the wrong season; some places that get a lot of precipitation might get more, might get less, but the amount probably will be a lot different, or in a different season; some places that get an even amount of rainfall throughout the year might get 75% of their rainfall in 2 months, and 25% in the other 10 months.

If the mountains of California get the same precipitation as they do now, but it's more rain and less snow than now, the amount of water available will be less, as snow stores water to be used later - rain runs off and can't be stored without spending TAX DOLLARS to build storage areas (called lakes behind dams). That would means there is less available water to irrigate the farms in the Central Valley; less water for LA, San Diego, Phoenix, Las Vegas and the rest of the SouthWest for drinking, cooking, bathing (you know, all those pesky little things that allow life to exist?), unless you and the other idiots are prepared to pay more taxes to build those dams (if available sites are found).

Warmer nights means more permafrost will melt, releasing large amounts of methane gas. Methane gas is 20 times as effective at trapping heat as carbon dioxide (guess why it's called a 'greenhouse gas'?). And methane stays in the atmosphere for 10 years or more, all that time trapping heat.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Mike in Maryland said...

(Continued from above:)

6. The cost of instituting fascist policy

Is big business falling all over themself in favor of the 'fascist policy' of Cap and Trade? Since Fascism is defined, in part, as "a corporatist economic ideology", wouldn't a 'fascist policy' be supported by big business?

Even the most ardent Cap and Trade advocates say that the effect of the legislation will be at best, the lowering of global temperature by .1 degree C over a 100 year period.

Well, if you rely on the propaganda of the anti-Global Climate Change purveyors, that might be the information you've heard. However, if you actually did any research of honest sites, you'd find that the proposed bill calls for a gradual decrease of carbon dioxide levels produced to 80% of the levels produced in 1990. That's 20% over a 40 year period, or .5% per year. A reduction of .5% in a year's time would bankrupt a corporation? How?

7. The planet has a natural methodology for dealing with increases of carbon in the atmosphere. Plants absorb C02 and thus, if more C02 is in the atmosphere, more plants grow. Plants are good BTW.

Plants are only able to grow when they fit into the environment. Too much heat kills some plants. Too little or too much moisture kills other plants. The right amount of moisture in a year, but in the wrong seasons, kills plants. Too little cold weather kills some plants. When the environment changes, plants can't just pack up and move to the area that now has the ideal environment for that plant species.

C02 is found in such small amounts in the atmosphere that our impact is infinitesimally small.

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/last_400k_yrs.html shows that the level of current carbon dioxide is the highest in at least 325,000 years, and the increase in the last 100 years is the fastest in the past more than 400,000 years.

So to summarize: (and all the GOOPer [il]logic following)

Just further proof that you do not know anything at all about Global Climate Change, and have no intention of learning anything.

Begone, TROLL.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Hu Chi said...

Mike

Nice post. Thanks.

Incidentally, Dan, your suggestion that I do something besides just talk is a good one. Our family's carbon footprint is down about 50% over the last three years.

Dan said...

Mike,

You really are a glittering jewell of ignorance. But nice job of trotting out all the debunked AGW talking points nonetheless.

We are now through a decade of declining temperatures. And this with C02 on the rise. Curious isn't it?

Furthermore, since ice core samples show that increases in C02 are caused by global warming, not the other way around, pretty much all the rest of your worries can be laid at the feet of Mother Nature, not man.

As for your notion that the Maunder Minimum and the volcanic ash in the atmosphere at the beginning of what we now call the Dark Ages had nothing to do with the decline of civilization and the ensuing Black Plague, I guess it was just coincidence.

You might want to review this theory that goes into great detail about the Krakatau eruption and the resulting major drop in global temperatures nearly overnight.

Bottom line, Mike, your diatribe had exactly ZERO evidence to support your claims that C02 CAUSES warming rather than what the evidence shows is the other way around. Until you can, the rest of your post is just noise.

Dan said...

Hu Chi said:

"Our family's carbon footprint is down about 50% over the last three years."

a. I find that hard to swallow but do tell.

b. Until you stop using fossil fuels altogether, you're still part of the problem (according to you anyway).

But you might as well say you have reduced your reliance on unicorn urine for all it matters (which is to say not at all). Your carbon footprint could be as huge as Al Gore's and it wouldn't matter to me. Anthropogenic carbon emissions have no deleterious effects on the planet whatsoever.

Buy hey, if it makes you feel good to deny yourself, be my guest. Just don't force me to bend to your religious beliefs.

Hu Chi said...

Dan

a. Smaller house closer to work. Less driving in a car with better gas mileage. Individual room heating. Passive solar. A few old appliance upgrades.

b. O.K. but it's a work in progress. I am still part of the problem, maybe. You're a proponent of the problem.

I don't have any religious beliefs to which you could bend.

We're so small we couldn't damage a big planet like this? I recall Rush making that case a while back. It sounds so commonsensical in the absence of any facts.

Toni said...

I think your analysis falls short on its prediction for Sen. Lugar. If you look back at his previous votes on climate and statements on the issue you will see that he is in a much better place than one would predict for a senator that comes from Indiana, where most of the electricity is coal generated.

I would actually put him in the "Possibly maybes" category.

Sacto Joe said...

I said:

Drop the national speed limit to no more than 60 MPH and ENFORCE it.

Scott said:

"As a Republican, I HOPE any bill that passes through Congress includes something like this. The cap and trade plan itself does not raise much ire in the public because it's largely behind-the-scenes. Sure, electricity prices will go up, but seeing a slightly higher bill every month won't bother anyone who can afford to pay for it.

If people start getting tickets for driving 65 on what used to be a 70 MPH road, they'll be absolutely furious. If they find out Obama and the Democrats were behind it, they will be even more furious. You might as well write the fundraising letters for us."

Yep. You're a Republican, all right. You're more concerned with making political hay than with solving a problem.

And spare me your "drill, baby, drill" mantra. Global warming is a reality, and that dog won't hunt.

The Republicans can be counted on to appeal to the selfish aspects of the populace. We must counter that with an appeal to their reason.

It is not reasonable to continue down a path towards selfish disregard for others. Eventually we and/or our progeny will pay the price.

Fortunately, the Republicans underestimate both the intelligence and the goodness of Americans.

gbthrone said...

It pains me to point this out, but the "commissioned analysis" appears to be nothing more than a SWAG (Scientifc Wild-A**ed Guess) justified by stated assumptions and weasel out of it caveats. Point is that no one really knows how Franken will vote, although based on his "on-the-left" public and professional personae, a liberal voting record seems probable (my SWAG). I'm not so sure that the old line "Party Discipline" exists among the Democratic Senators, any more than it does among the Republicans (as has been well documented on 538). I've heard the comment made that the real reason the Coleman-Franken election results affair took this long to resolve was that the MN courts, having seen a retire wrestler as governor, wanted to be absolutely sure a retire comedian would make an appropriate U.S. Senator.

N said...

Frankin has clearly indicated that he is going to model his Senate career - at least initially - after Hillary Clinton. As such one cannot assume he will be very liberal at all despite his past. Hillary was expected to be one of the most liberal Senators and ended up being quite pragmatic and accommodating to the right. Frankin will likely bite his lip and do much the same. Entertainers need the acceptance of their peers to feel good about themselves... in this case, making new Senate friends on both sides of the aisle. A Bernie Sanders he will likely NOT be! So lets see who is right after a year of votes.

Scott E said...

RE: Landrieu.

Mary Landrieu is bully on Coastal Restoration of Louisiana (see this insider's weblog). Such a large national program will require the support of much of Congress.

To boot, Much of coastal restoration is made more difficult by Relative Sea Level Rise, and made moot if catastrophic sea level rise from ice sheet melt occurs. So it's a good political lever!

At the same time, for those of us in Coastal Louisiana, restoring the coast is a much better flood protection program than what the Army Corps of Engineers likes to subject us to.

Ickey said...

Where's this month's senate races update, anyway?

Glenn Doty said...

Sacto Joe.

The problem with the speed limit is this: a person driving a Hummer 2 will burn 3-4 times more gas/mile driving at 55 mph than a person driving a prius would burn driving 75-80 (the practical limit of the prius).

Of course, if you were to try to ban big SUV's, you'd end up with a situation where a camping trip would have been accomodated for 5 people and their gear with 1 SUV, but instead they'd drive 3 cars - burning ~ twice the total gasoline/mile.

There are ALWAYS situational modifiers that make any over-arching authoritarian rule seem assinine. The market can - and should - rule. The trick is, if you want to reduce gasoline consumption, you structure the market to add additional burden in accord with gasoline consumption, and each individual will figure out what they need to do to lower gasoline consumption.

For most drivers, merely accelerating gradually and coasting towards red-lights would make more of a difference in gasoline usage than lowering the speed by 10-15 mph... And for me personally, if I'm on a 1000 mile trip with the family I would be quite pissed if you forced me to take an extra hour and a half just to reduce my overall gasoline consumption by 1-2 gallons (how many people would pay 6 dollars more to shorten their road trip by two hours? I certainly would).

If instead you slapped an $80/ton tax on carbon dioxide emissions, gasoline would cost an extra $1/gallon. That would mean less people would buy SUV's, more people would car-pool, more people would use public transportation... etc... but likely not one single person would lower their average speed on long road trips... That's just not going to be one of the routes towards lowering consumption that would be chosen.

I do agree that carbon emissions is a problem, but I don't think it's government's place to micro-manage people's lives. Price the burden of pollution into the cost of the carbon and let people figure out how best to deal with it on their own.

The best route would be to re-distribute the money collected from the carbon taxes on a flat basis (every tax-filer in the country gets an equal share) and let the market figure it out. Of course, you'd have to tax imports based on their carbon footprint, and that's currently being fought over in the WTO... but that's the way to go once the details are worked out.

Mike in Maryland said...

Glenn Doty,

Hey 'flat-taxer'? Why don't we just mandate that everyone gets the same salary, wage, bonus, pension, etc.? Everyone gets the exact same amount of money - no one gets one penny more, no one gets one penny less, than their neighbor, their Congresscritter, the bank president, the person wo lives 3,000 miles away.

Then we wouldn't have to argue about who pays more in taxes and the flat tax would make sense.

But then we'd have to say that everyone has to eat the same, drive the same car, have the same number of children as everyone else, get the exact same education as everyone else, etc., etc., etc.

Problem solved.

Somehow I don't think you'd like that proposal, though.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Letter said...

Mike in Maryland, you're behaving like a rabid jack@$$ at the moment. Glenn was referring to a flat REBATE for all citizens pulled from the carbon tax revenues. Nothing to do with flat income taxation. Surely somebody who complains about others misconstruing your posts all the time would try to avoid such hypocrisy?

Reading is FUN-damental!

Sacto Joe said...

I posted a long response to Glenn Doty, but it has apparantly just vanished.

First of all, rebating the total cost of the tax means that you end up paying the same price per gallon over time. How does that curtail consumption?

On the other hand, if you keep some of the tax, a "flat rebate" becomes far less fair than a "progressive rebate". Consider: The person who's poor gets the same rebate as the person who's rich, but they both pay the same amount of tax per gallon. That's a regressive tax.

JKBrooks85 said...

The way I see it from here in Alaska, it's extraordinarily unlikely that either of our two Senators will vote for this bill, unless something relating to the gasline is thrown in. There'll be some discussion about ANWR, but that's too controversial for the moment.

Letter said...

Yep, such a rebate proposal would be entirely regressive unless you were to scale it inverse proportionally to miles driven (which would is impossible in politics and practice). It's a non-starter for sure.

Mike in Maryland said...

Letter,

Flat refund?

Makes no difference that some families are much larger than another family, and thus need a larger vehicle to carry the family?

Makes no difference that some have to drive 10, 20 or 30 miles further to work than others (even if temporarily because of flooding, bride collapse, etc.)?

The flat rebate is nothing but a diversion so that the flat tax idea can later be inserted into the debate - "Well, you accepted the flat rebate, why is that so much different than a flat tax?"

It is NOT a progressive idea, but a 'I got mine, you go somewhere else to get yours (if anything is remaining to get)'

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Mike in Maryland said...

Letter,

I might add that I would benefit from a 'flat rebate' for no reason.

I don't own a car.

I don't drive. Personal reasons, including problems with my vision (genetic disease), not for legal reasons.

I made choices of where to live and where to work so that I could live without a vehicle. Not all people are in such a position, though.

Yes, I would benefit, and many others who live and work near public transportation (such as that 'liberal' New York City) but that does not make it fair to others.

And what about those who don't pay taxes? Such as many elderly, or those so physically handicapped they can't work? Too bad, you don't contribute, so you're left out?

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Letter said...

You're missing the point, Mike. Yes, Glenn's rebate would be regressive. Which is bad. But it wouldn't incentivize behavioral changes. Which is worse.

That oversized family with the SUV would be punished under a progressive rebate. Which is right. The whole point is to increase mpg (since the tax just covers gallons consumed - rebate scaled to actual miles driven on those gallons). It isn't about income, it's about consumption. (And for the record, those who don't own a registered vehicle wouldn't qualify for a rebate since they aren't consuming to begin with.)

Income disparity (and its role in choosing one's method of transportation) would have to be addressed by separate subsidy policies outside the tax/rebate proposal.

Of course, all of this is irrelevant since it will never happen (miles driven will never be metered) and wasn't the point of the "offending" post in the first place. At least you didn't scream GOOPer with your hands this time. That's a start...

Glenn Doty said...

To Sacto Joe and Letter.

The flat rebate would be ideal to re-inject money back into the system... so that the people have money to function as you increase the costs of literally everything. But the carbon tax would re-structure the market so that low-carbon footprint items and carbon neutral energy have a greater competitive advantage. Recycled materials would compete aggressively with made-from scratch materials... excess flashy packaging would be costly and disincentivised, etc... But EVERYTHING would cost more, the more desirable product lines would simply see less of a rise in costs.

By re-distributing the money, people would have enough money to still make their lives work in this new economy, but they would use that money in a way that would make sense in that new economy... Consider this:
Today, electricity costs ~0.08/kWh in my state (SC). A person with an older home who has large single-paned windows has an electric bill averaging ~150/month, which is obscene... but swapping out the windows with new high-efficiency windows might cost ~10,000 and save 60/month. That's a 14 year payback.

If there was an $80/ton CO2 tax, and ~$700 was re-distributed to everyone every year... then the electric bill of the person with bad windows would go up by ~$50/month, the windows would cost a similar amount, and the payback would then be only ~11 years. Due to the rebate, the family would, on a purchase power parity basis, be in a very similar financial position that they were before (This isn't fully true, there is a progressive distribution in energy usage, hence a flat rebate would result in a net regressive tax... But the inflation of goods would impact the poor more than the middle class and wealthy, so it's complicated). The difference in the family's situation would be the financial factors relating to upgrading their windows (or replacing their car, or taking public transportation... or switching from red meat to white meat... whatever).

The point is restructuring the market to include a burden for CO2, without overburdening the consumer... then letting the market figure it all out.

As for Mike, I assume that you are an idiot that has never considered CO2 reduction and its varying impacts... merely a drone recieving marching orders from MoveOn (I'm a member myself, btw) and looking for keywords that you are programed to attack... I encourage you to start thinking. The world is more complicated than can be expressed in bumper-sticker slogans, and to fix what's wrong in the world we need real conversation and real cognition... not merely a foil to the (far more lamentable) ditto-heads.

Sacto Joe said...

Letter said: "Income disparity (and its role in choosing one's method of transportation) would have to be addressed by separate subsidy policies outside the tax/rebate proposal."

I wouldn't have a problem with that, but since it's essential from a "fairness" point of view, I don't view it as "separate".

Glen Doty said: "The flat rebate would be ideal to re-inject money back into the system... so that the people have money to function as you increase the costs of literally everything. But the carbon tax would re-structure the market so that low-carbon footprint items and carbon neutral energy have a greater competitive advantage."

These are two separate issues. I absolutely support the concept of a carbon tax (although some forms of carbon are worse than others - burning methane is a net benefit to the planet even though it creates CO2).

But your concept of a flat rebate is unnecessarily regressive, as I've pointed out. On that we may have to agree to differ.

BTW, I don't think that calling someone an idiot, no matter how provoked, is conducive to reasoned discourse. However, Mike, you kind of started it with your "flat taxer" comment.

Can we start by assuming that we have different points of view, and that until proven otherwise, we aren't trolls, bent on denigrating this site?

Glenn Doty said...

Sacto Joe.

You left off a necessary caveat in your parenthetical aside:

(although some forms of carbon are worse than others - burning methane THAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE EXHAUSTED INTO THE ATMOSPHERE is a net benefit to the planet..)

Naturally, digging up anything just to burn it is net harmful in the anthropogenic global warming equation.

:)

Even though this is, of course, an entirely academic discussion (there won't be enough political capital to support a carbon tax for a long time), I'd be interested in the mechanisms that you would support for re-distributing the collected carbon tax money. I prefer simplicity when considering government policy, so flat redistribution works great for me - especially as it advantages those that are attempting to live "green" lifestyles over those that are not. (Remember that the wealthy consume FAR more energy than the poor, both in direct energy usage and purchased goods.)

As for ad hominum attacks... I don't take offense, but idiocy is idiocy (in the Platonic sense - one who is willfully unknowledgeable about government affairs), and Mike's response was clearly that. If he wishes to have a well thought out discussion I'd welcome it, but if he wishes to hurl invectives then I will calmly glance over his post quickly and ignore it. I don't waste time with reading non-policy responses... but I don't get angry or resentful. Only a true fool would harbor a grudge over a simple online policy discussion.
:)

Mike in Maryland said...

Letter said...
And for the record, those who don't own a registered vehicle wouldn't qualify for a rebate since they aren't consuming to begin with.

But there you are wrong.

It takes fuel to grow the crop to make food. It takes fuel to bring crop to market. It takes fuel to process the crop into food. It takes fuel to bring the food to the wholesaler and/or retailer.

The same with manufactured goods - it takes fuel to mine the ore, take it to the processor, to manufacture the product, to get it onto the market and into the stores where it can be purchased.

If I'm not a consumer, then I don't consume the fuel. But I AM a consumer, and therefore I DO consume the fuel.

I would prefer that the fuel I consume to be renewable, not fossil-based fuels.

You are looking at a single market of energy consumption - personal vehicle transportation.

Most people in the US also consume energy in the form of electricity - at home, at work, at the market, and for those who use public transportation, in the subways and light rail. In the US, 50% of the electricity consumed is produced by coal, a particularly dirty fossil fuel, even more dirty than petroleum.

Most people in the US also consume energy to heat, ventilate, and cool their homes and places of work. Most of the markets they go to also consume energy to heat, ventilate and/or cool the space. The energy to heat the space is usually in the form of coal, gas or oil. The energy to ventilate and cool space is usually in the form of electricity. In the US, 50% of the electricity consumed is produced by coal, a particularly dirty fossil fuel, even more dirty than petroleum.

So you say that those of us who don't own a vehicle don't consume fossil fuels? Cut out every bit of your own consumption of energy besides personal transportation by vehicle, and then you can talk to me about an energy tax rebate going only to those who use a vehicle.

As to the large family I was speaking of - What if a woman gets pregnant with triplets? Such an incident happened with a woman where I worked - natural, not in vitro.

She drove a Prius, but with the need for baby seats for three, and no vehicle capable of carrying more than two in the back seat, she was forced to:

1. Get a vehicle capable of carrying more than two in the seats behind the front seats (an SUV); or

2. Deciding which baby would not be transported when she, her husband and the other two babies went somewhere (doctor's appointment maybe?).

Since all states prohibit a baby, even if in a baby seat, from being transported in the front seats of a vehicle, she had to make a logical choice, and the ONLY logical choice was to get a vehicle that was capable of properly transporting more than two baby carriers in the area behind the front seats.

Glenn Doty As for me being a member of MoveOn - yes I am. But I am almost ready to quit them, as they send email after email for me to scream at my Congressman and/or Senators to do something that they are already going to do. The wording of most MoveOn emails to members is way over the top, and many times they don't target the correct audience in any way, shape or form.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Glenn Doty said...

Mike

I can sympathize with your frustration concerning Moveon. Again, I am a member myself... The difficulty for me is that I live in SC, and both of my senators and my representative (Wilson) will absolutely not do what I ask... I've met them, spoken with them, and they've on more than one occasion listened politely and stated that they had already determined what they were going to do, and that was that... I've given up and now just devote time to candidates running against them (I'm consulting with Rob Miller on energy affairs in the hopes He can take down Wilson, but it's an incredible longshot).

Thanks for toning it down, btw.

Freedom's Truth said...

Nothing in this analysis acknowledges or recognizes how much of an overbearing, overloaded, compromised and for the most part fraudulent pile of bovine excrement the Waxman-Markey House bill became.

It's so bad that even NASA's Hansen is against it. If you dont know the ACES bill is a con, read this: http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/06/the-con-is-on-how-carbon-credits-neuter-cap-trade/


If this bill gets nowhere in the Senate, or they rewrite it from scratch, consider it a blessing.

Freedom's Truth said...

"Obama has an ace up his sleeve to push cap and trade through in the EPA. The EPA has the authority to establish carbon standards itself through the Clean Air Act and the form of those standards could well be cap and trade. EPA action is also very likely to be much less lenient then ACES. So a few weeks before the floor vote Obama has the EPA start making noise and then this bill (which takes this right away from the EPA) can be sold by blue dogs as the middle path."


That's no an ACE up the sleeze. That is sleazy and underhanded abuse of power. Apparently, Obama will act like a mafioso and put a gun to the head of American economy and jobs.

Obama's done enough damage already.

Chad said...

Nate,

I called Senator Gregg's office and asked about his position on ACES. A staff member told me that the Senator would oppose any legislation similar to ACES as it left the House because "it is basically a huge tax on Americans".

I asked the staff member to tell Senator Gregg that inaction on climate change is potentially devastating and I forwarded them a link to the CBO cost estimate that shows ACES to incur moderate costs to most income levels of Americans (and even benefit the lowest income electricity users).

That estimate is available here:
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/103xx/doc10376/hr2998WaxmanLtr.pdf

Chad Woodworth

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Nathan said...

Wow, Nate, I just want to congratulate you on this eerily prescient post, in light of the Kerry/Graham proposal.