The Associated Press has some speculative details of the "compromise" health care bill that looks ready, at long last, to emerge from Max Baucus's Senate Finance Committee:
[Any] legislation that emerges from the talks is expected to provide for a non-profit cooperative to sell insurance in competition with private industry, rather than giving the federal government a role in the marketplace. The White House and numerous Democrats in Congress have called for a government option to provide competition to private companies and hold down costs.So there's not a public option in the Finance Committee's bill -- which should come as no great surprise to anyone who's been following this debate. Instead, there's Kent Conrad's plan for regional, non-profit cooperatives. The real fight over the public option will take place when the HELP Committee's bill, which does include a public option, is reconciled with the Finance Committee's version, and/or when the Senate's version is ultimately reconciled with the House version.
Officials also said a bipartisan compromise would not subject companies to a penalty if they declined to offer coverage to their workers. These businesses would be required to reimburse the government for part or all of any federal subsidies designed to help lower-income employees obtain insurance on their own.
Democratic-drafted legislation in the House includes both a penalty and a requirement for companies to share in the cost of covering employees.
The bigger news, rather, is that Baucus's bill will not contain an employer mandate -- a requirement that employers provide health insurance to their employees -- even though it does contain an individual mandate.
Does this look familiar to anyone?
-- No employer mandateIt should -- because this particular permutation on health care reform looks an awful lot like the incomplete draft of the HELP Committee's bill that the CBO scored last month, which also lacked an employer mandate and a public option but contained an individual mandate. That bill, the CBO estimated, would cost about $1.0 trillion -- but would only cover a net of about 16 million people. In contrast, the revised version of the HELP Committee's bill, which did include both a public option and an employer mandate, would cost about the same amount but cover a net of 37 million people.
-- No public option
-- But yes, an individual mandate
It's not quite right to say that the public option and the employer mandate would allow us to cover an additional 21 million people for "free". That's because the employer mandate represents a burden on businesses, and could in turn result in some additional costs in the form of lower wages and/or reduced employment. A recent study by the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco found that in the state of Hawaii, which does have an employer mandate, wages dropped but by a "statistically insignificant" amount. It also found that there was an increase in the reliance on sub-part-time workers (people working fewer than 20 hours a week are not subject to Hawaii's requirement) but no overall drop in "employment probabilities". The upside, however, is significant: Hawaii has both the broadest coverage among adults aged 18-64 (only 11 percent are uninsured) and (!) the cheapest premiums. Although some of this has to do with Hawaii's climate, ethnic makeup, and diet, that seems like a pretty good trade-off.
Baucus's bill makes a different trade-off. In order to placate business interests on the employer mandate, and what are frankly ideological interests on the public option, it sacrifices coverage. If I'm reading this right, in fact, 16 million might be on the high end in terms of the net gain in coverage. That's because whereas the HELP Committee's unfinished draft subsidized insurance at up to 500 percent of the poverty line (meaning $54,150 for an individual or $110,250 for a family of four), the assistance in Baucus's draft would end for people making more than 300 percent of poverty ($32,490 for an individual or $66,150 for a four-person family).
The AP may be right that Baucus's bill will cost less than $1 trillion, but it accomplishes that by shifting the burden to middle-income families, some of whom have poor balance sheets and will face a really tough choice between paying for health insurance they can't quite afford and facing some kind of penalty. Odds are that many of them will take the penalty, which is why coverage probably won't expand very much. Or, the enforcement mechanisms could be more stringent, in which case they'll have to buy health care, at the cost of reducing their spending in other areas -- and in probably being very teed off at the Democrats who passed the bill**.
This is a pretty poor combination of attributes for a health care reform bill to have. If Baucus & Co. wanted to get the cost below $1 trillion, they could have chopped the subsidies down to, say, 350 percent of poverty, while keeping the employer mandate and the public option. As a very rough guess, a bill like that might insure another 30-35 million people at a gross cost of about $850-$900 billion. The actual Baucus bill is going to cost about the same but will be lucky to insure half as many.
The good news is that the math on this bill is so bad that I doubt it will survive intact. Personally, I think the public option is probably a goner, but that the employer mandate will probably be restored -- especially if Baucus dares to put his bill before the CBO and see what they think of it.
__
** Just to underscore this point: when it scored a similar bill, the CBO estimated that 15 million people would lose their employer-provided coverage. Most of these people are likely to be lower-to-middle income persons with somewhat tenuous employment situations, a group that tends classically to be swing voters.
Now, how are those 15 million people going to feel about health care reform when they find out that:
a) Although the bill was supposed to guarantee access to health insurance, they've in fact lost theirs;
b) They're required to buy an expensive, private plan on their own, or to pay a fine;
c) They're probably not getting any government assistance;
d) They certainly don't have any Medicare-like alternative to fall back upon;
e) All of this cost the country about $1 trillion dollars.
You think those 15 million people are going to vote for the Democrats again, like, ever?
EDIT: The Politico article on the subject implies a little bit more of a compromise approach toward the employer mandate.
Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-Maine) confirmed that the three Republicans and three Democrats negotiating the Senate Finance bill are moving away from a broad-based mandate that would force employers to offer insurance. The senators instead are leaning toward a “free rider” provision that requires employers to pay for employees who receive coverage through Medicaid or who receive new government subsidies to purchase insurance through an exchange.This is better -- maybe a lot better -- than having nothing at all, although it potentially leads to some distortions in the market. Say that you're picking between a job candidate who has a family of five, and a job candidate who is single. The job pays $40,000 per year, but for whatever reason, you've decided that it's not cost-effective to provide your employees with health insurance. The former candidate, the one with the family of five, will be eligible for the government subsidy, which you will ultimately have to foot the bill for. The single guy will not be. Who are you going to hire?

99 comments
I am incredibly curious why Democratic leadership doesn't give the Healthy Americans Act. I mean the bill has 6 Republican co-sponsors and 6 Democratic co-sponsors. It increases coverage to all the uninsured and is debt-neutral by 2010. It'd be far more comprehensive and cost effective to the American public than either the HELP or Finance Committee legislation which both appear to be nothing more than failed attempts at real reform.
Even though I've seen individual mandates poll well, I think support for it will drop dramatically when people have to face the reality of having to buy it.
The question is: Can the individual mandate be scrapped and still get a bill passed? I doubt the leadership is there in Congress to do that. I almost think no reform is better than this Baucuscare.
I really think this is just a way to offer a poison pill in order to kill the reform effort.
And Nate will post a follow-up article stating how epically failing in passing his agenda through a super-majority Congress is all actually "really good for Obama" in 5...4....3...2...
I think they're passing out blue pills.
"You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes."
An individual mandate without a public option is worse than the status quo.
*now w/ crazy typos fixed*
An individual mandate without a public option is worse than the status quo.
Politically, this route is deadly. However politically tough the public option/single payer is to get passed now, reform without a government option will be infinitely tougher going forward.
Forcing everyone to buy insurance looks like another giveaway to big business (e.g. banks) if you don't give these new customers a public option. Springing these new folks loose w/o somewhere to land will be very, very bad and will make reform really, really unpopular.
No public option, no employer mandate, only an individual mandate.
Sounds like Mittcare, which is failing in Massachusetts.
Jesus H Christ. The Democrats have a supermajority and they're still fucking around with this Max Baucus horseshit?
You stupid fucks. You stupid stupid fucks. If there is no public option I am never voting Democratic again.
Obama had not better sign this. If he does, he can forget about me voting for him in 2012. And the Dems can just hand everything back to the GOP, cause American voters will turn against them and vote for the GOP. Baucus has sold us out. Where is Wigman???
Obama and the liberals would suddenly have to suffer from collective mass insanity to sign this giveaway to the insurance companies. I don't see it happening. Instead, I think health reform is going to go to reconciliation in order to bypass the GOP and the Dem sell-outs. Yes, reconciliation would be hyper-partisan hardball but there may be no other way to get around the corruption.
Nate are you saying that you don't think there will ever be a public option coming out of Congress or that there won't be a public option in the Finance committee bill?
I have supported Baucus for years, but he is spineless on this issue which is incredibly important to Montana and the entire nation. What a disappointment!!!
Is this some kind of joke? This is exactly as bad as we'd get under a GOP majority.
Dems need to borrow some balls and get this done, and done right. No more pandering to big business.
If they screw this up, they're going to be swept out in hasty fashion. Enough corporate welfare.
"Personally, I think the public option is probably a goner"
[eyes bug out]
Whaaaa? Why do you think that? You best be joking.
If true and passed, you might have to update your list of seats that are open to challenge. I can imagine a lot of votes going towards third party candidates instead of Democrats.
Question:
Could the Democrats in the Senate use the nuclear option to pass health care reform? At some point, I think it would be worth it politically for the future of the party and, of course, for the welfare of the nation.
I sincerely hope this is nothing more than an intentional "press leak" in an effort to get a sense of public opinion.
If not...good-bye Dems. What a sad, sad moment in time. I was born and raised in Montana. I personally do not know anyone who is willing to vote for Baucus again. The kindest thing I heard: "He's been in office too long. It happens to all of them."
I have many friends in Hawaii. Nate, they rave about their health insurance. Makes me want to move back to Hawaii.
"And the Dems can just hand everything back to the GOP, cause American voters will turn against them and vote for the GOP."
That's not the only option. Third party candidates and independents will benefit from this mess -- and rightly so.
Hope Nader runs again.
SOme journalists have said that "old bulls" like Baucus can't be pushed around by the White House because, well...they never said why.
I disagree, and very strongly. It is past due time for Obama to revert to good ol' Chicago-style, brass knuckles back alley fist fight with the likes of sold outs like Max Baucus.
Unless all Montanans are covered with ultra cheap platinum-plated health care insurance coverage (not really huh?) Baucus must be politically dragged in the mud, beaten to a pulp and asked: "Had Enough?"
Because otherwise, millions among us will have had MUCH more than enough with this grade-AAA steaming pile of enzyme-free bovine fazoo.
And when we, the people, massively go buy ventilators to spread the above mentioned fazoo, politicians of all stripes will suddenly have a tough time breathing.
According to the information posted on the House web site, twenty (20) percent of Montanans do not have any form of health insurance. Montana had 900 health-care related bankruptcies in 2009.
I definitely hope this AP story is simply a test for public opinion. If not, then it is third party for me.
The Democratic leadership has been handed a presidency and a legislative supermajority and a crisis and an opposition party in meltdown and STILL they dither impotently. Mindboggling.
C'mon Max. Enough with this crap. Whose side are you on?
A Montana Democrat.
No public option, eh? Devastating confirmation of how corrupt our government is. What sad news this is.
So their solution to the healthcare crisis is to simply require individuals to buy insurance from the private sector???
Um, news flash: People are not opting out of healthcare simply because they don't want to be bothered! Talk about a giveaway to the insurance companies. I can see them salivating now over the prospect of all of these people now mandated to come to them to buy health insurance.
If this is what the Dems (and Obama) do with a super majority in Congress and the White House, then I wasted my time helping to get Obama elected. The Dems are taking less than 10 months to destroy what should easily have been a 20 year reign of power. While we may have a representative Democracy, the question is: Who are they representing??
If Obama signs a healthcare bill that does not contain an unadulterated Public Option,I would regard it as a total Great Betrayal and a heinous political crime!(And I am one who cried uncontrollably with joy on Election Night.)
I read about the possibility of this sellout on the NY TImes wedsite before I saw this thread and I felt like vomiting.There are six senators involved in designing this vile bill (Baucus,Conrad,Bingaman,Grassley,Enzi and Snowe):
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/28/us/politics/28baucus.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
I don't know whom I should put my hopes in.Reid,as usual,plays the eunuch.Obama seems overcome by his destructive compulsion for bipartisanship uber alles.I'm left with Pelosi.
So we need the House to triumph over the Senate,and the use of the reconciliation device to avoid a filibuster.
What a tragedy Kennedy's illness is at this time!
I think this whole mess just shows that the only way the US is going to avoid massive health cost increases, business shutting down, a ton of bankruptcies, and citizen revolt is that they institute a single payer system.
Anything less will not save the US from the impending economic collapse.
It is time for Obama to man up and do the right thing, so far he has shown little courage. The conservatives can just go cry in the corner while the adults fix the problem. At least they will still have a country in which to bitch about.
Sorry for the OT Sir Nate,
but I urge you should submit a question to global warming’ deniers.
If global warming does NOT exist, why Bush tried to hide the truth ?
Revealed: the secret evidence of global warming Bush tried to hide.
Photos from US spy satellites declassified by the Obama White House provide the first graphic images of how the polar ice sheets are retreating in the summer.
The effects on the world's weather, environments and wildlife could be devastating.
See the link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/26/climate-change-obama-administration#
ciao.
So, the AP reports that [Any] legislation that emerges from the talks is expected to provide for a non-profit cooperative to sell insurance in competition with private industry
And how is a non-profit cooperative that much different from a private, non-profit, insurance company?
http://www.carrborocitizen.com/main/2007/03/29/flux-up-yonder/
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
wv: 'flingsh' - Another example of what a TROLL sounds like when trying to pronounce 'English'?
The Baucus bill does sound like the kind of fudge the insurance companies would love. Without a public option, a mandate is an evil and corrupt thing. Without a mandate, then there is no way to ensure as wide a coverage as possible. A public option really is the only way forward.
The media have loved laying into Obama on his handling of the heathcare issue, citing polls showing declining approval ratings on the issue as evidence of lack of public support for a public option. Personally I think that is bunk. Obama's declining numbers, as I see it have a lot to do with the declining chance of a public option. If Obama came out and said 'I would prefer to sign a bill with a public option in it' or something similar then I believe his numbers would go up. (I don't believe he can go much further without risking the whole healthcare issue).
I don't get the something for nothing attitude most of you have. If you're for universal health care, you must contribute. If you're not willing to contribute, you're against universal health care. Pure and simple. The other dishonesty in current discussions is that health care costs can be reduced by anything currently being proposed. That's delusional. Unfortunately, the only way to reduce costs is managed care. If Medicare is an example of what the public option will be like, forget it. There is compelling, overwhelming evidence that Medicare monopolistic practices has driven up health insurance costs for everyone else. That's because it refuses to pay its way. I'm strongly in favor of insurance reform making it available for all. I was on the fence about universal health care until I saw that no one was willing to discuss the subject in an honest way.
An individual mandate would be just as insidious as a public option. What is poorly understood in an individiual mandate is that overpriced insurance would be foisted upon the young in order to spread the costs of the more expensive to insure.
If actuarially-sound insurance were to be offered to all, as private insurers do when not forced to compromise underwriting standards, there would be no need to force people in. The game to pay attention to is community rating standards. If those are overly broad, throwing underwriting standards out the window, then mandatory insurance is an unfair tax on the young. This is another of the many reason that this legislation is doomed to collapse of its own weight.
NU'69 said
If you're for universal health care, you must contribute. If you're not willing to contribute, you're against universal health care. Pure and simple. The other dishonesty in current discussions is that health care costs can be reduced by anything currently being proposed.
-------------------
First off, obviously if you want a public option you have to accept that in some way taxes need to go up. Personally I would favour a national insurance scheme, with a graduated tax applied directly to earnings. (exactly like it is over here in the UK). But there are other ways that don't have to be overly burdensome.
As for costs. Well that all depends on which costs you are talking about. Private insurance companies are free to charge whatever they like. Thats the cost that most Americans find burdensome. (Maybe I should say many Americans). The actual cost to hospitals and other health care providers may not be so easy to reduce. But in a public option, the government run operation won't be looking to make the kind of profit many insurance companies are.
I actually think the left has been pretty honest in the discussion, I think the right has made some churlish claims about 'socialised medicine' and 'the government geting between you and your doctor' as two examples that spring to mind.
I've never quite figured out why Americans don't take a more can do approach to helathcare reform. The US Army, as an example, is a prime example of what the US government can do, and how innovative a publicly run organisation is capable of being. I think that every teacher in the country would be fairly surprised to realise that its apparently impossible to be innovative within a publicly run system.
Rudy, it shouldn't be down to actuarial standards though. Healthcare should be available to all at a reasonable cost. It should not be a case of the most likely to use healthcare should have to pay the most. Thats the greatest true advantage of a public option. A society with a truly high sense of community would appreciate that the most able to pay should pay the most. (Thats the point of graduated tax systems).
@MiM:
Yeah, thanks for the documentation about Blue Cross. This is exactly what I saw when installing business accounting software for a large southern "non-profit" blood bank: Six figure salaries, $200K bonuses and gold-plated perks for the three guys that founded the place, including brand new cars, million-dollar offices and $100K parties every month. Community outreach, you understand, to make friends with millionaires and politicians. Why? Because their product was free, charitable people donate blood for free and the blood bank charges the hospital a fortune, but the hospital doesn't care, they just mark it up and pass on the cost to the patients that have no choice, because they will die without it. Easy breezy. Fucking vampires, almost literally.
So, $3.1 million for the Blue Cross CEO. I guess it is nice to get even more confirmation of my theory that shameless corruption rises to the top. It is simple, really: The corrupt have a competitive edge; they really don't give a shit about other people, even if those other people have to die to let them live in comfort.
Markymark, I understand your point, and that's why people are right to call such a plan socialized medicine.
Any actuarially-sound insurance plan is not also a redistribution scheme, particularly preying on the young.
I am curious to know how single-payer in america will achieve the magical goal of both not increasing in costs inexorably over time and reducing cost in the short term (under 10 years). This is not the case in any other country with single payer (their costs are still increasing as their populations age; nobody is seeing costs drop anywhere on earth).
It is not even the case with current single-payer american programs like medicaid/medicare or tricare (military healthcare).
What is so awesome about america that it can achieve cost miracles simply by switching to a single-payer system? I have yet to see any information along such lines by folks who scream and holler for the single-payer option while swearing it's cheepcheepcheep.
What is so awesome about america that it can achieve cost miracles simply by switching to a single-payer system? I have yet to see any information along such lines by folks who scream and holler for the single-payer option while swearing it's cheepcheepcheep.
Your mindless straw man fallacy is not worthy of a reply, but I will make a small effort.
No one says it is "cheep"(sic), countries with a single payer or something similar to get more for the money spent.
The US spends more per capita and gets less in return.
This isn't rocket science.
Beav, you really need to re-examine those precepts of the U.S. spending more and getting less in return. In particular, beware of:
1. the simplistic analysis that equates outcomes solely with life expectancies without looking at quality of life,
2. the economic costs of the US health system subsidizing much of the world via new drugs and medical technology,
3. the deliberate policy decision by the US to emphasize rapid access to good care in lieu of minimizing costs,
4. the displacement of costs from the public sector to the private sector because of inadequate reimbursement.
The US spends more, and we get more. The world also gets more because of us.
Actually, a prime talking point is the 'cost savings' that will happen immediately upon adoption of single-payer. You personally may not feel that way about it, but a lot of people do seem to think america going single-payer will both be cheaper, provide more care (although more is always vague and undefined) and never increase in cost over time.
Other countries have relentlessly increasing costs. That is called 'unsustainable'. The costs of healthcare, single-payer or not, are UNSUSTAINABLE. nobody is getting sustainable healthcare anywhere on the planet. that is numerically true. costs rise year over year, never stay even or drop. The older you get, the more expensive it gets to figure out how to keep you alive. As well, the modern culture of human-as-God insures that new and expensive medicine will be put out there and it is interesting how once a bit of medicine is invented, it becomes a 'right'.
People want single-payer to cover IVF treatments. think about that, and then tell me how long that fairyland of expense will last. you can't give more people 'more care' if you think IVF treatment is part of the basic care package everyone has a right too. but that is what USian single-payer advocates sincerely believe.
i do notice you did not actually rebut the reality that increasing costs that affect all healthcare systems everywhere. housing prices didn't go up forever, but people sure believed they could. the new lie is that this is true with healthcare, that more and more care can be provided and that it will not cost more and more until it breaks.
Big pharma and insurance companies gouge US customers because they are allowed to, no other reason.
You also forgot that much of the added cost is uninsured people going to the ER when they have no other options, when preventive care could have been done earlier and much, much cheaper.
What about the countless bankruptcies due to uninsured, underinsured, and insured people that got screwed over by a company run by people with more money than they will ever need?
It is a sad fact that way more than 50% of the population of the supposed richest and most advanced country in the world is one misfortune away from total financial devastation. If you think you can justify and support that, then you are a major part of the decline of the US.
That is called 'unsustainable'.
What is unsustainable is the path the US is on, in every respect. From greed, rampant consumerism, lack of environmental foresight, lack of concern about its citizens, etc. The "American way" as it has been perverted by corporations and everyone trying to get as much as possible is unsustainable.
Actually, a prime talking point is the 'cost savings' that will happen immediately upon adoption of single-payer.
If all you are going to do is spout Limbaugh talking points, you aren't worth having a discussion with.
@ NU'69:
I detect a whiff of bullshit here, or perhaps it is just confusion on your part:
First, we don't have a "something for nothing" attitude. Probably over 85% of the people commenting here that are for a public option expects to pay the premiums on the public option and to subsidize the poor for health care. I certainly do, but I expect to contribute through my taxes, not out of my pocket.
Second, it is not dishonest to claim that health care costs can be reduced by currently proposed policy: In fact the public option is likely to do that. As Senator Dodd has pointed out and you can find for yourself in public documents, the thousands of private insurance companies in our country spend about 30% of their income on "administration" which includes multi-million dollar salaries; while Medicare (which you deride) spends about half that. A public option would cut "administrative" spending by 15%, and that would be savings right there. I seriously doubt your "compelling, overwhelming" evidence exists, unless you find Lewin Group (employed exclusively by insurance company lobbyists) "compelling."
Third, the idea that we cannot truly reduce health care costs is ridiculous on the face of it. We pay twice as much as any other industrialized democracy, including Canada, Britain, France, Australia, and others, and on every metric that counts our outcomes are worse: Worse death rate, worse infection rate, worse infant mortality in hospital, worse recurrence rates, worse waiting times, and worse treatment rates.
For the rich, we have a great health care system, because there will always be the few percent of doctors willing to prostitute themselves for enough cash (ask Michael Jackson). For the upper middle class and below, we have a system that extorts somewhere between 50% and 100% of a person's assets if they have a life threatening illness, and still produces worse outcomes at higher net cost than if the same person with the same illness were a British, Canadian, French or Australian citizen.
In US Dollars, in 2006; the average hospital doctor earns 268K in the USA and 203K in Australia. Australia has no shortage of doctors willing to work for this wage and surveys indicate they are happier and work fewer hours than American doctors. The Australian pipeline of medical students headed to become MDs is healthy as well.
Once a doctor is earning $200K for a 40 hour week, putting in an extra 20 hours to earn an extra $100K just isn't that appealing. If anybody should appreciate that life can be short, you'd think it would be doctors. And frankly, if I need to be treated, I'd rather it be done by a doctor that is not sleep-deprived.
The way to reduce health care costs is simple, rip the profits out of it. But the only reliable way to do that is by making the people that run it civil servants that do not earn more than $140K or so, and get no exorbitant perks, offices or golden parachutes. Don't make it a "non-profit", make it a NO profit industry. Doctors and nurses and orderlies can still be paid the average of what they get now for their specialty; but ONLY they get the big bucks and ONLY because they are provably educated with provable skills. They will be paid by civil servants earning $140K. I have worked with such civil servants extensively; they have no problem commanding firms, consultants and experts earning ten times what they earn on multi-million dollar contracts. It doesn't take a bigger paycheck to command authority.
Marie,
I am going to make 2 slightly opposing points here. 1 costs will reduce because many of the current insurance companies are run on a profit motive. A public option, single payer system will not be. The second point is that I think the cost saving argument is over played. To me, and I think to many on the left, the moral argument, that a system that ensures all Americans are covered, is by far the most important. It shouldn't be done on a mandate basis, because what happens to those, say, who are earning minimum wage and not able to afford decent health insurance. A public option, funded through taxation, is the mot sensible and moral way to do this. Any other way is a cop out of some degree or other.
@markymark
The problem here in the US is that all these people supporting universal health care don’t think they should share in the cost. So Congress plays hide the ball by putting the burden on private companies, or by soaking the rich. I stand by my comment that unless you’re willing to contribute to the cause, you’re against universal health care. The something for nothing attitude in this country is despicable
There is nothing wrong with profit, and health insurers cannot charge whatever they want because of competition. Government here has not shown its ability to do anything well or efficiently. I’m not sure about your Army example, but if I read you right on education, that is a prime example of what I’m saying. The virtue of private insurance is that it can be regulated. Check and balance. With a government monopoly, there is no check and balance and the abuses therefore are worse than anything we see with a regulated private industry. Medicare and Medicais are examples.
No public option, no employer mandate, only an individual mandate = car insurance situation. Only worse because you can't choose to take the bus. :/
Creating a forced market of that extent to be served by a corporate insurance oligopoly is one hell of a perfect storm for mass corn holing of people and businesses. The system is fucked now so the solution is to force the current fucked up solution onto everyone? That isn't bad math. You don't even need to get to the math to find the core flaw.
NU'69 said...
There is nothing wrong with profit, and health insurers cannot charge whatever they want because of competition.
The HUGE fly in that ointment.
Government here has not shown its ability to do anything well or efficiently.
When you elect people like Bobby Jindal that comes in with that sort of defeatist attitude, it certainly doesn't help. However several governments around the world, using a mixture of different models with varying degrees of capitalist components, have shown that a government can much more actively administer health care in a more efficient manner.
Exactly what is wrong with the US that this couldn't be done by the federal government?
No country's healthcare costs are decreasing, not even countries with single-payer systems.
None, zip, zero, zilch.
Please explain how the USA will be the magnificent exception.
I am not talking about how fast costs are rising, because every country has differently rising costs, but simply the fact of the rising.
Healthcare isn't infinite. Costs keep rising on it, and nobody actually has any plan to deal with this. People just keep bleating 'other countries are cheaper and give more care (and are smaller in population, and more ethnically homogeneous, and physically more active, and younger, and eat healthier, and are more clustered in a handful of urban locales--but this mysteriously gets left out of the bleatage), and so we gotta do how they do!'
But those other countries are getting crippled by their cost increases too.
Is the American situation ok? Heck no! But until we all admit that healthcare cannot actually be infinitely handed out at reduced cost, or even sustainable cost, we can't actually try to figure out anything useful. there must also be honesty about the fundamental cruelties of single-payer if you have any kind of marginal condition that costs money. shockingly, even single-payer won't pony up for people with expensive chronic conditions either. the government ends up worrying about expense too, not just the big bad insurance companies with their massive, gigantic 3% profit margins.
PS: only 10% of the uninsured are so unhealthy they need doctor visits more than 1-2x per year. You could do well enough for the other 90% giving them a check for 1k each annually and calling it a health care stipend. the 10% actually sick won't get help under single-payer, unless you count a single doctor visit where their complaints are dismissed as 'help'.
@Dwight:
I am agreeing with you, I think: The idea that the government "cannot do anything well" is just a flat out lie. Where is the evidence?
The majority of our budget goes to the military, social security and medicare/medicaid. Where is the evidence that these cost any more to run than the civilian sector would have to pay?
As a consultant for a firm heavily involved in the US Postal Service, I found the US Postal Service MORE efficient and far more cost effective than FedEx.
In the military myself, I found the military pretty efficiently run in day to day operations, and with friends in the military now, I see no change in the pressure to keep costs down (of course boondoggles like the giant weapons programs, with pervasive cost overruns at every turn -- Those are run by the civilian sector, not by military personnel and military engineers).
A friend of mine is employed by the Texas Highway department and they are similarly damn efficient and cost effective.
There is ample evidence that Medicare/Medicaid operates with less than half the overhead of private insurers, all costs considered, and they cover more.
Government runs things just fine. Even the DMV in my town is faster and more responsive than, say, my cable company or my home insurance company or the local plumber. Two hours in line at the DMV and I am done; if my cable goes out I get the standard line "be at home all day tomorrow."
When you see government fuck up, it is almost never by civil service employees, it is almost always civilian contractors screwing over taxpayers, or crony capitalism giveaways by corrupt politicians.
@Marie:
No country's healthcare costs are decreasing, not even countries with single-payer systems.
That is misleading. Other countries with public health care or insurance pay less than half what we do per capita and get better outcomes on objective measures, like survival rates.
So it doesn't make much difference if their costs are rising also; if we went to, say, the Australian system, OUR costs would be cut in half immediately.
The USA is already the exception, paying twice what we need and getting WORSE care. We just need to get back to average and we will save massive amounts of money.
@Marie Everington
There will remain certain pressures pushing the expenditures upward. But that is a separate variable than the one being addressed here. Even if the net difference was still a rise the rise would be much slower.
To just throw up your hands and say "well we are going to pay more no matter what, so what does the magnitude matter"? That is a painfully illogical stance to take.
I don't buy that other countries' economic model is worse than ours.
For example,
17% of our GDP goes for health care.
9.5% of France's GDP goes for health care.
I don't quarrel with the fact that health care costs are rising-- they are (and will continue to in all industrialized countries, especially as the population ages.)
The issue though is simply and straightforwardly that health care costs too much already. Whether by economy of scale or by increasing the supply of providers (i.e. allowing more medical schools to open and as long as they meet standards not restrict how many students they can teach) what is unsustainable is continuing to pay as much as we are right now.
Also, I don't argue that only 10% of the uninsured have to have more than one doctor visit a year.
But that is also true of the insured. I have insurance, but I could probably make it on one doctor visit per year (though having insurance I go when I need to, for example to the podiatrist last year to deal with some foot tendonitis, which I could probably have suffered through if I were uninsured but it was nice to get over it quicker with the prescription he gave me.)
The issue though is what happens when someone does become a member of that 10%? Sooner or later almost all of us will get sick (or at least we will die from something which presumably could be diagnosed and treated at least to some degree.) I would submit that it is a moral issue that we should recognize that this will happen to everyone and have a way of making sure that they can be taken care of.
Some days it seems like society has scarcely advanced for thousands of years.
I was reading the Bible the other night and read about the woman who had used up all her savings on physicians who failed to cure her. When she no longer had any money the physicians no longer were treating her. Luckily she had a cure available (touching Christ's clothing) but it seems like our modern day health care system resembles nothing so much as those physicians, taking care of us only as long as we have money (insurance) and then casting people aside when they can't pay.
Maybe not a fair comparison but that's what today's insurance and profit-drive health care system feels like.
@Tony C
Other countries don't have the obesity rates, ethnic makeup (genetic costs), and irreposnbitiliy that we do
I have been saving this but I'm ready to share it
This article shows how much of a disaster nearly ALL of the currently proposed plans will be
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/24/news/economy/health_care_reform_obama.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009072410
The reason Baucus is wavering is because the median voter is starting to realize that the public option IS a camel's nose into single payer and that they are likely to find themselves with more health care expenses (the money to cover the uninsured has to come from somewhere) and more limited access to health care should something like Obama's plan pass.
NU69 said
'There is nothing wrong with profit, and health insurers cannot charge whatever they want because of competition.'
----------------------
Actually I would argue that as a prime motive within the health industry, I would suggest that indeed there is something wrong with profit. I would argue that at least to some extent the insurance companies form a cartel and force UP prices. Its not drug prices that are the issue, its premium prices that are vital, and there is no motivation for the insurance companies to keep premiums low. There is an assumption that the market works to help consumers, my feeling is that in this instance the market aids the insurance companies. Partly because the insurance companies are so poorly regulated. But effective regulation is every bit as pie in the sky as decent healthcare reform, from the point of view of the healthcare lobbyists. The problem with healthcare reform is that the politicians listen to the voters for 1 day every 2, 4 or 6 years, but they listen to lobbyists all the time. The insurance companies can force costs up, and maximise profit, because they are in an industry that there is always a need for. There aren't a huge number of consumers (mostly private industry providing coverage for there employees).
The market favors the insurance companies, just as the market for oil favors the suppliers to the extent that the consumer has little power over the price of oil. (I'm not advocating public ownership of oil by the way).
As for the success of the US Army, well take a look around your house and see how innovative the US Army, and US government agencies can be. Teflon, the internet, the phone system, mobile phone communications, amongst others, all developed by the Army or NASA. (Developed not invented before anyone jumps on my case there)!! Why can't a government run health system be innovative?
When this becomes offical, President Obama needs to smack it down HARD! Basically, he needs to say something like, "You know, I'd personally be embarrassed to put out a lousy piece of legislation like this. Now go back to work and come up with something that will actually do the job!"
Nate, please help with the following research: Let's publicize the names and facts re: all Senators and Congress members who have connections to the insurance industry and who don't support a public option. I'm going to start a blog today.
--Victoria Lee
Nate-
I know the point you make in the edit that employers would choose the person less likely to need government insurance help makes sense but there is one problem with using it as an argument. The situation may come up but it will be held in check by the mere fact that it would be illegal discrimination and at least if the Democrats stay in power they would definately go after those cases.
@nova_middle_man
Following the HMO route would very likely be a mistake in that doesn't address a lot of the inefficiencies of administrative overhead. Last week I was down in Texas and noticed a TV ad. I didn't catch who was sponsoring this little bit of misinformation but I can only say it gave a extremely gross misrepresentation of the Canadian health system (besides the red herring implying that a Canadian style system was even close to a front runner).
In Canada a good deal of who gets what treatment is left in deference to the family doctor and then whatever specialist that doctor refers you to. As such it relies heavily on:
1) integrity and responsibility of the patient
2) the professional organization enforced ethics and competence of doctors, particularly family doctors as the front-line
Note that these doctors are NOT government employees, or assigned patients or told where they can practice. The equivalent of the AMA and the government health ministries outline best practices and ethical guidelines. The doctor that the patient chooses then does the job of applying these on a case by case basis with minimal justification paperwork.
We even have some for-fee services, though a relatively small portion of the system. It's sort of a grey area and varies from province to province exactly what and how that works.
P.S. It has been found that under systems that rely on the responsibility of the patient that co-pays, especially co-pays for basic preventative visits, cost more than the revenue they bring in. Though there are some minimal monthly/yearly flat premiums that some provinces levy.
@nova:
That's a lie, and there are no extraordinary "genetic costs" to speak of; there are VERY few diseases with genetic specificity; our three biggest races are Hispanic, Caucasian and Black; all of which are present in statistically significant numbers in France, Britain, and Australia. You can add a greater share of Arabian descent into the mix over there as well.
They have their fair share of obese people as well; of all races. Not one of these countries regulates caloric intake; and on average they aren't any more "responsible" with their health than we are.
You are just making shit up.
The other countries are better is the worst kind of strawman argument
You can't compare apples to oranges.
If it was really as easy as hey lets switch to the Candaian/British/Australian/Japanese system we would have done it already.
It does nothing to address how to fix the US system.
Dwight,
Could you talk more about this section
"P.S. It has been found that under systems that rely on the responsibility of the patient that co-pays, especially co-pays for basic preventative visits, cost more than the revenue they bring in. Though there are some minimal monthly/yearly flat premiums that some provinces levy."
In the US unfortunaly we have a fairly large underclass (I suspect its larger than Canada) that will not be able to pay into any healthcare system at all.
Thats where the real rub is
how do we pay (who or what do we tax and at how much)
where is the cutoff for ability to pay (500% poverty 300% poverty or somewhere inbetween)
I am a lifelong Democrat. If this bill passes and is signed, in its current form, I will never vote for a Democrat again, as long as I live, no matter what promises they make, no matter what lies they tell.
We asked for, voted for, and need real health care reform. This is a massive subsidy to an already enormously profitable industry that would do absolutely nothing to help me afford health insurance.
Shame on you Max. Shame on you.
Nate,
Maybe you can help clarify some math for me. Where do they come up with these numbers in the first place. If the US spend 16% of its GDP on healthcare, or about $2.2 trillion per year and France, a country with a luxurious public plan, spends 11%. If we were to adapt the French model, wouldn't we then save about $700 billion per year?
Are there any progressive primary challengers to the Blue Dogs?
Because I'll donate money to each of them. And I think every progressive in this country should do the same.
Josh gets closer to the truth here than he realizes. This bill has been positioned to be all things for all people, and as the facts have emerged, everyone has found something to hate about it. Same is true with whatever Max & crew come up with.
This is Obama's fault for constantly promising fantasy reform rather than achieving the achievable, and sticking to his bullheaded (and false) talking points rather than recognizing reality. Hubris kills.
BTW, moneymaking opportunity for non-US residents to short the contract on Intrade re health care reform with a gov't run plan by yera end. Still trading at 37 cents, and it should go to zero. Too bad US residents can't trade there.
You can't compare apples to oranges.
Actually you can; they are both fruits, they both grow on trees, they are both relatively spherical and their size and weight ranges have significant overlap. They have both been significantly altered by human cultivation from their wild state in terms of size and sugar content.
Nevertheless, I am not here to compare apples and oranges, I am here to compare health care systems, and you make foolish statements like this with no backing; people in the USA and in other industrialized countries like France, Britain and Australia do not differ that much in any significant respect; except that they are fortunate their political system is not completely corrupted by misplaced ideological faith in big business, and this allows them to realize that curing sickness and saving lives is not just another business opportunity.
@nu'69
"The problem here in the US is that all these people supporting universal health care don’t think they should share in the cost. So Congress plays hide the ball by putting the burden on private companies, or by soaking the rich."
I have no problem whatsoever soaking the rich because the rich have had no problem soaking me in the past. Who was it that benefitted time and time again from the bailouts? The rich. Who was it that had no problem taking money provided by my taxes to give themselves lavish trips and bonuses? The rich. Who took tax break after tax break while my taxes went up and my Social Security disappeared? The rich.
It's about time they gave something back regardless of whether or not I benefit from it directly - which I won't.
The rhetoric is totally outpacing reality here, especially on the idea of a government run "public option" vs a government regulated co-op. Both are, at root, insurance systems. How they operate, and how well for how many, has everything to do with details that haven't materialized yet.
Yes, Blue Cross/Blue Shield is a theoretical non-profit that operates just like a for-profit insurance company in terms of premiums, compensation, etc. But the co-ops in other states are run more like a true charity system, with an emphasis on preventative care and greater access. Likewise, the DOD is government run, but no one would call them an efficient user of funds and resources.
The name is not as important as the actual structure, which hopefully we'll get a better idea of in the near future.
The lack of a business mandate, on the other hand, is b.s. The dems original plan exampted small business. There has to be a class of business between Mom & Pop plus 20 employees and Wal-Mart that all sides can agree should have an obligation to cover their employees, so I agree with Nate a mandate will likely come back in some form.
costs increasing more slowly is still costs increasing.
as several responders bleated, they seriously believe if we just switched over, we'd magically have lower costs *and* save money over the longer term.
if i spend 2k per person this year, and then 2.3k, and then 2.7k, and so forth, the guy spending 4k per person is not going to see a lasting increase switching to my system. in fact, my costs will eventually end up eating the same levels of GDP as the other guy's, only 10 years later instead of, well, now.
people are behaving as though single-payer will magically be cheaper, cover every possible medical whatever that crops up, and also somehow get every single american to a loving, caring doctor who hugs them at the end of each weekly visit and works for pennies, because, well, life-saving, it's not a thing you can charge nasty money for.
@Berkeley Bear:
o one would call them an efficient user of funds and resources.
Okay, not the DoD, but the military per se is an efficient user of funds and resources. I served in the military, my father retired from the military, and his job for twenty years was actually as an efficiency expert.
You have to distinguish between the military and the DoD; because the DoD spends wildly on wish fulfillment crap like bombers and laser planes and all sorts of shit; and all of that stuff costs a fortune because it is done primarily by civilian firms charging $2000 an hour for engineers and $500 an hour for clerical work, and they get it because they have lobbyists and congress men and senators greasing the skids for them.
The actual day-to-day work of the military is less wasteful of time and money than is the civilian sector. I have worked extensively in both with access to the accounting numbers; in my experience in both the military and after the military as a corporate consultant, the civilian sector is much less efficient and more wasteful of resources.
@Marie:
Australia in 2006 was paying doctors an average of $203K versus our average pay in 2006 of $278K.
$203K is not pennies; and Australia still has no shortage of doctors willing to work there.
You don't know what you are talking about; you are so blinded by your ideology you can't understand or believe in actual facts. Wake up.
Man the democrats are sure fucking up this whole health care reform debate.
If only there existed a single republican on the planet with an idea of how to make the system work better, I may consider voting for one. Alas that is not the case. (note: whining, bitching, and claiming that they are not required to have ideas since they are the party out of party does not count as actually having ideas.)
If real reform does not come out of this congress and this administration, it likely never will. Lack of reform is a guaranteed recipe for financial armageddon. The U.S. economy can kiss its ass good bye, it was nice while it lasted.
Marie Everington…
Perhaps if you pared some of the invective from your posts you wouldn’t come across as such a shill for the moneyed interests who want health care delivery just exactly the way it is now.
Unless you have been living under a rock, certainly you are aware of the massive, expensive, wasteful boondoggle that “managed care” is. The purpose is not to “manage” care but to “ration” it, but the expense involved, every cent of which is poured down a rathole—hundreds of thousands of insurance company drones who do nothing but shuffle papers and “approve” what your doctor has already decided should constitute your care—rivals the budget of the Defense Department. Single payer would wipe all that out with a single stroke, and decisions regarding your care (not to mention who provides it) would be returned to the patient and his doctor. Not one shred of paperwork would be involved.
Secondly, your pooh-poohing of the idea that making a profit on insurance adds substantially to the cost of health care puts you completely at odds with reality. Based on your indignation over the suggestion that health care might be one of those things best delivered without some entity taking a slice of profit every step of the way, I can only conclude that you don’t care about much of anything that doesn’t have the whiff of a “business model” about it. Completely apart from moral issues (which are enormous, but which I’m certain you don’t care a fig about) if cost-saving in the delivery of healthcare is the aim, the profit motive is the biggest target. It’s a simple as that.
Every time I hear of the latest trick of that pandering, money-grubbing, greasy, oily monster Max Baucus I think of Henry II desolating cry when informed that Thomas à Becket had yet again reneged on an agreement which limited and defined his prerogatives—
“Who will rid me of this upstart clerk?!?!”
Isn’t there some mechanism for dumping rogue committee chairmen, or are all the Democrats as corrupt as he is?
Recent polls show the popularity of the Prez and his healthcare plan to be plummeting and the prospects for passage of his socialist-inspired vision are now, thankfully, dim
This bi-partisan compromise in the Senate most likely will carry the day.
No employer mandates and no public option. But real reform of the insurance system which is what Obama uses most of all in his fear-mongering, emotional appeals. Y’all ought to applaud this.
This is real reform not a crypto-fascist takeover of healthcare.
http://tinyurl.com/ndv8ax
petekent01 (on twitter)
PeteKent said...
Recent polls show the popularity of the Prez and his healthcare plan to be plummeting and the prospects for passage of his socialist-inspired vision are now, thankfully, dim
This bi-partisan compromise in the Senate most likely will carry the day.
No employer mandates and no public option. But real reform of the insurance system which is what Obama uses most of all in his fear-mongering, emotional appeals. Y’all ought to applaud this.
This is real reform not a crypto-fascist takeover of healthcare.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PK, thanx for sharing ;)
Now you have everyone's permission to leave. You are excused to go trolling elsewhere.
take care, blessings
Here's at least one of the problems that the Democrats are facing with Baucus:
http://fec.gov/DisclosureSearch/HSRefreshCandList.do?election_yr=2008&category=stateS_dem&stateName=MT
I've been sitting here wondering what Dem's might do to actually pressure Baucus-- a conservative Dem from a more conservative state-- and the answer is seemingly, given the total party contributions to his campaign, not much. His bread is not buttered with party contributions, but "Individual" and PAC contributions (as well as 'other', whatever 'other' means). If I ran the DSCC, I would probably try to make him aware that, if he voted with the Dems more often the Dems would make up the money he's lost from other sources, but since he's 6 years away from his next campaign, would it really make a difference?
Sorry to here i do not care for insurance any more I use a discount card its better I do have a pre-exiting
go to this website and check it out
http://www.iboplus.com/12575591
Yeah, 3% profit is totally too much money for anyone to make.
As for doctor salaries, there is plenty of chitchat about how doctors shouldn't even make 100k per annum. You can't use what doctors make now as a bludgeon to claim they won't make less (they will) under single-payer.
And medicaid/medicare are not paperless, but yet they are single-payer. explain that one.
the simple fact is that single-payer will not magically make everyone healthy. it will have to contain costs, in some brutal fashion, and for even more people than those evil insurance companies do, with their outrageous, insane 3% profits.
this is simple math. the government is not a source of infinite money. just because they can print it up doesn't mean everyone will take it indefinitely. this means, among other things, that healthcare via the government alone is not cheaper nor can it actually guarantee broader access.
america is less population-dense than canada or australia, and has many times more people (particularly in australia's case-- we can easily find a few million americans getting even better care than the entire population of australia, which is also...a few million).
this is a major source of dishonesty. there are no countries with 200 million plus people providing single-payer with more access, cheaper and with 'better outcomes' by the highly biased WHO standard. the only countries with 'better outcomes' are smaller, packed into a few cities, and younger and more physically active.
you would get very different outcome data cherrypicking america for 20 million or so people with excellent coverage and good health. and it would be easy to do, that is less than ten percent of the US population, but more than all of australia and 2/3 of the canadian population.
america is very large and just not really the same sort of deal as the other nations it is compared to. whatever solution might be found for healthcare (and again, most people don't actually need to go more than once per year, which is very cheap to save for), it does not lie in imitating tinier countries where everyone's young, thin, white and living in a metro area.
canadian outcomes in rural areas are very bad, actually, but that's not where most canadians are, or even a substantial fraction, but they still suffer for not living in toronto or vancouver. and googling for canadian racism in medicine reveals canadian doctors give crap treatment to POC as well.
it's not all paradise other places just because they claim it costs a little less per person.
Baucus is an embarrassment, a Republican posing - for 30 years now!- as a Democrat. Dems have 60 votes in the Senate and Max is going after bipartisanship? The issue is health care reform, Max, not Baucus getting brownie points for trying to make nice. Montana deserves better and so does the nation.
"P.S. It has been found that under systems that rely on the responsibility of the patient that co-pays, especially co-pays for basic preventative visits, cost more than the revenue they bring in. Though there are some minimal monthly/yearly flat premiums that some provinces levy."
In the US unfortunaly we have a fairly large underclass (I suspect its larger than Canada) that will not be able to pay into any healthcare system at all.
It varies from province to province. Currently the province I live in, Alberta, does NOT charge one. When they still did last year it was something like $50/month for a single person, $100/month for a family (I forget, I haven't paid it directly in a very long time, it's a common employment benefit to have it picked automatically).
So it isn't a whole lot of money to start with and there are usually exemptions based on income and age (65+ are usually not required to pay).
So, no, it's nothing like the issue you might imagine. Most people here would shit a brick if they had a grasp on how much private insurance with some sort of decent coverage costs in the US. Then they'd see the co-pay list and shit another brick. I can say from personal experience I dropped the later figurative brick when I started looking through the wife's upcoming coverage (she's manager a fair ways up in a Fortune 500 company, this is considered a "good" plan apparently).
Rudy said...
This is Obama's fault for constantly promising fantasy reform rather than achieving the achievable, and sticking to his bullheaded (and false) talking points rather than recognizing reality. Hubris kills.
With the exception of Pete Kent and handful of conservatroll's usual insane rantings, that is the biggest load of bullshit I've read on here in quite some time. With these corrupt Blue Dogs and spineless Dems in the senate, single payer is perhaps fantasy. A robust public option, on the other hand, is NOT fantasy, dipshit. Not with over 70% of the American public in half a dozen polls strongly in favor of it. Obama was elected on the flatform of change: ending the Iraq occupation, reforming healthcare and improving America's image around the world, among other things. He's taken a hit recently because job losses continue (what did people expect, the recession to end and recovery to begin after 6 months?) and he's not seperated his administration enough from from previous Bush policies. Obama's decline began with sending out mixed sometimes contardictory signals and pissing off progressives. But mainly it's congressional Dems not getting things done. It's been a rough month or two and something had to give, namely 10% in job approval.
Fortunately for Obama and the Dems, GOPosaurs as a whole have entered Kookytown and as unpopular as ever.
As for this retard sandwich of a plan Baucus served up, he should be fucking ashamed of himself. This is what he's been cooking up all this time? As Nate said, this came as no great surprise to anyone. Baucus is corrupt and should by bypassed, along with his fellow Blue Cross DINOs.
BTW, Sherrod Brown stated clearly on Ed Shultz that there WILL be a strong public option, and the President again today reiterated his intention to sign a healthcare bill with a public option. The AP instead focused entirely on the Prez and First Lady's Will, I shit you not. Obama and Pelosi know healthcare without a public option is political suicide.
Marie wrote:
"People want single-payer to cover IVF treatments. think about that, and then tell me how long that fairyland of expense will last. you can't give more people 'more care' if you think IVF treatment is part of the basic care package everyone has a right too. but that is what USian single-payer advocates sincerely believe."
Well I'm not one of these people. I think we should have single payer for necessary preventative, urgent and emergency healthcare but that private insurance should be allowed for things that don't fall into those categories like IVF, Viagra and cosmetic surgery. (Note that I said cosmetic, not plastic. Plastic re-constructive surgery after an accident should be covered. Birth control should be considered preventative care because healthcare during pregnancy is much more expensive.)
Marie Everington said...
Actually, a prime talking point is the 'cost savings' that will happen immediately
Not many are saying it 'will happen', but the intelligent person is saying it SHOULD happen.
Just ONE area where the cost savings should kick in quickly:
A patient needs two procedures on the eye. The insurance company dictates that the two procedures can ONLY be done separately, otherwise only the procedure with the least cost will be paid.
Many doctors prefer to do both procedures in one operation:
1. Less total time for one procedure than two separate procedures.
Instead of two separate prep times, there is one prep time, consisting of the same amount of time each time a procedure is done separately.
One session with the operating room staff (anesthesiologist, scrub nurse(s), cleaning crew after the operation, etc.)
If the patient has to travel (and they do unless they are living IN the hospital), that is two separate travel and possible hotel expenses to be factored in.
2. Longer recovery time.
Let's say one procedure, done alone, will take one week for recovery. If done in conjunction with the other procedure, it will take 10-14 days. However, the other procedure takes a month to six months for recovery, whether done alone or in combination with any other procedure. So the patient has a one month to six month recovery if the two procedures are done together. If done separately, it is one week, then an additional one month to six months for recovery.
3. Fewer costs for the surgeon.
One prep time prior to surgery.
One billing instead of multiple billings.
Fewer total patient consultations with the doctor. If the procedures are done together, the doctor must see the patient for one pre-op examination, but if done separately, the doctor must see the patient for two pre-op examinations.
After surgery, the doctor can combine the examinations for both procedures if they are done together. If done separately, the examinations for the first procedure fall prior to the second procedure being performed. More travel time for the patient for the additional doctor consultations. More time off from work. More expense in getting child care (if needed).
4. ALL surgeries carry some risk of infection (especially), especially when there is a cutting of tissue and sutures. With two procedures, such risks are effectively doubled.
Hospitals are notorious for having more germs than the non-hospital environment, especially drug resistant germs. Two operations means more opportunity for the patient to come into contact with such germs, and thus get a secondary infection. Getting a secondary infection means added expense for treatment of the infection, additional doctor consultations (more time and expense for BOTH the doctor and patient), more expenses in travel to and from the doctor, more time off from work, etc.
Not all costs of patient care are premium payments. Some of the costs are borne by the patient, and some of those costs are not strictly monetary, but additional risks that might, or do, happen, time off from work (meaning loss of pay or leave), etc.
5. Patient comfort. Both procedures can be done through a single incision point if done together, but two incisions must be made if the procedures are done separately.
Additional situations can be cited, but no need to write a book with all of them.
Oh, and if you think the above is a fanciful scenario, one procedure is the removal of a cataract and insertion of an artificial IntraOcular Lens, and the second procedure is a corneal transplant. More than 40,000 corneal transplants are performed in the US each year, and most also involve the removal of the lens and replacement with an IOL. Dr. Francis Price in Indianapolis (to name just one doctor) has confronted this situation many times since many insurance companies have developed this policy.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
I think the final bill will include some form of employer mandate (probably with some subsidies or exceptions for very small businesses), individual mandate, and will contain a public option (either as a co-op plan or as a trigger if certain metrics aren't met)... I would like to see some efforts at tort reform and incentives to encourage healthy choices/ tax or penalize bad choices.
my concern are:
1)the implementation timeline,if it is going to take 2+ years it won't seem much of a change for voters, particularly those for those that are unemployed
2)cost for those making under $60K, not everyone needs comprehensive coverage an affordable bare bones basic plan with catastophic coverage would be better than no coverage or having to pay a fine and still can't afford coverage.
As Michele Swenson stated here-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michele-swenson/blue-dogs-should-demand-c_b_245083.html
Money Quote = "...single-payer reform model. Consequently, the Congressional Budget Office has evaluated the costs of every other proposal except the single-payer bills, HR 676 and SB 703."
Nate! We need the cost saving of single payer to be brought to the forefront of this debate...now would be nice. :)
Thanks for all the great stats!
wow, totally not surprised to see sterilisation advocacy from a single-payer advocate because continuing the human race is 'too expensive'.
yeah, i suppose it's 'cheaper' if women aren't allowed to get pregnant under single-payer and forced to 'freely choose' birth control and surgical abortions.
Except pregnancy expenses are only high in the US because of the insane c-section rate, and not because simply being pregnant is 'more expensive'.
As well, pregnancy is hardly where the expenses of the current system are highest. it's old people on medicare, not 'gold-plated insurance' consumers visiting the doctor endlessly.
Most of the expense in american healthcare is the very government-funded healthcare that we're supposed to just turn single-payer. But honesty isn't a strong point when advocating for sterility if you commit the crime of getting pregnant and don't want to use your free government abortion coupon.
"The upside, however, is significant: Hawaii has both the broadest coverage among adults aged 18-64 (only 11 percent are uninsured) and (!) the cheapest premiums."
In this Hawaii resembles the UK, where private insurance (and drugs) are cheaper than here.
bah said...
wow, totally not surprised to see sterilisation advocacy from a single-payer advocate because continuing the human race is 'too expensive'.
yeah, i suppose it's 'cheaper' if women aren't allowed to get pregnant under single-payer and forced to 'freely choose' birth control and surgical abortions.
Equating advocacy for including the costs of birth control and abortion in insurance policies to sterilization?
What planet were you born on, TROLL?
And also typical of the TROLLs at 538.com, Blogger returns a "Profile Not Available".
TROLL - take your serious mental and reading comprehension problems back to the FreetardRepublic.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
To all the Freeptards; TROLLs; and assorted 'keep the current insurance system without change' readers of 538.com:
Let's say you are in need of an operation on your eye to restore sight. Your surgeon has two choices on how to do the operation, with both costing (insurance-wise) almost exactly the same, and both having been performed thousands of times per year:
Option 1 (the surgeon's preferred method): The surgeon makes, at most, a 5 mm incision.
The surgeon uses 1-3 stitches to close the incision point - with the stitches removed in two months or less (usually within two weeks).
The operation introduces minor or no additional distortion in your sight.
This procedure retains the integrity of the eyeball so that it won't easily burst if accidentally hit after the operation.
The patient regains as good or better sight than prior to surgery within 2-4 months after surgery.
The patient can return to full activity within one month or sooner, with 'workable' vision of 20/40 or better, but eventually (within 2-3 years) the patient can expect 20/25 or even 20/20 vision.
The patient needs prescription glasses to correct most vision problems after the surgery, just as before the surgery.
Medicare pays for this procedure.
OR
Option 2: The surgeon makes a 25 mm incision.
The surgeon uses 16-32 stitches to close the incision point - stitches removed in six months, or possibly 5-7 years, maybe never, but usually after 2-3 years.
The surgery introduces major additional distortion in your sight.
The surgery has the great potential to destroy the integrity of the eyeball so that it might easily burst if accidentally hit after the operation (child or grandchild's flying fist or elbow? Tennis ball? Auto accident? Spouse tossing and turning in bed at night?).
The patient regains as good or better sight than prior to surgery, but normally after 1-3 years after surgery.
The patient might return to full activity after six months or longer, with 'workable' vision of 20/40 after six to twelve months.
The patient needs prescription glasses to correct most vision problems after the surgery. Or possibly Rigid Gas Permeable (RGP) contacts plus prescription glasses, maybe with prisms ground into the lenses so the patient can see without major distortion. And all the additional prescriptions cost several hundred dollars, AND have the propensity to change every few months during the first three years after surgery, AND the prescription lens costs are NOT covered by insurance, not even the RGPs.
Would you choose option 1, or would you choose option 2?
What if option 1 was not available ONLY because the insurance company decided it would not pay for the procedure, but would pay for Option 2?
Just one example of how insurance companies interfere with the delivery of health care to Americans, and in this case, for reasons that don't even affect the insurance company's bottom line, but have a severe and detrimental effect on the patient.
Still want to defend the insurance companies with a "they don't do any harm" mantra?
Want to keep stating that insurance companies don't stand between a patient and their doctor, but a government bureaucrat will?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
I was responding to the lady who felt that birth control was a preventive (her own word, even) for the ailment(?!) of pregnancy, which she believed to be 'more expensive'.
It was her decision to word simply being pregnant in a context that makes it out to be something that must be prevented as a default norm of healthcare.
Government support for abortion leads to female-fetus killing. As is currently the case in canada.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4SUNA_enUS281US281&q=canada+sex+selective+abortion&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
Sex-selected abortion is thriving, and it's only female fetuses selectively being tossed.
This happens far less often in countries with legal abortion that isn't explicitly government funded (USA).
I've said the US healthcare system is quite flawed. I have also questioned why you think a three percent profit is outrageous and evil for a company to earn. That three pennies of each healthcare dollar is not where US healthcare is running into its problems.
The most immediately soluble problem is medicare overspending, and that is, again, SINGLE-PAYER GOVERNMENT HEALTHCARE.
--Marie/bah (google accounts assigns me two IDs on the same email, some weird quirk).
Marie, that is a redherring. IIRC (and judging from the links I followed) that is a lower mainland BC effect, driven by a particular immigrant culture (Chinese) that has a very high presence locally.
Of course birth control could include pills and condoms that don't have such effects on abortion rates. Although in Canada those are generally NOT covered (as they are take home prescriptions in the case of the pill and not even prescription in the case of the later).
P.S. I'm not exactly crazy about the path that poster took. I think it goes into a "bad" area.
I came in a bit late to this discussion but the people here who think quality of care will improve under a single payer system are sorely mistaken. Everyone in the UK would rather be on private health insurance because it takes so long to get an appointment there. I personally know one person who died of cancer because of misdiagnosis and being kept waiting to long to see a specialist, and he was only 50. Or the more recent death of Jade Goody, because she had to wait for tests.
As a side note, those "unnecessary tests" that are always being decried would have saved my Mother's husband.
Here is a report on the sorry state of care in the UK: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-476631/Britain-shame-cancer-survival-league.html
Quote:" Experts blamed NHS waste, drug rationing and a lack of cancer specialists for the shameful showing".
Why so few cancer specialists? Because no doctor wants to work for the government, the best work for private hospitals or move to the states. So the UK now has a huge problem with underqualified foreign doctors.
Government run healthcare will be a disaster for the US. Think about how incompetent the democrats are at dealing with this bill ( not to say the Republicans would be any better) and then you want them to deal with your healthcare? Keep politics out of care.
Crisscross said: Everyone in the UK would rather be on private health insurance because it takes so long to get an appointment there.
You're taking cues from the Frank Luntz playbook there. You're conflating a European-style socialized medical system with the current proposals.
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
You're making the weakest sort of straw man argument.
Crisscross said: ...no doctor wants to work for the government, the best work for private hospitals or move to the states. So the UK now has a huge problem with underqualified foreign doctors."
Are you fucking stoned? There isn't a single element of what you just said there that is true.
Crisscross said: Government run healthcare will be a disaster for the US. Think about how incompetent the democrats are at dealing with this bill (not to say the Republicans would be any better) and then you want them to deal with your healthcare? Keep politics out of care.
Spoken like a true corporate shill. Yep, that's the solution, let's keep everything the same.
Crisscross does not speak from the perspective of a reasonable, rational person. Crisscross reads like a sockpuppet. I've worked publicity campaigns against sockpuppets, and you sound like one. Yes, even with the typos.
We ARE NOT talking about socialized medicine.
We ARE NOT talking about the government taking over the medical system.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PROVIDING CARE TO PEOPLE WHO CAN'T AFFORD IT.
Yes, replying to a point made here with actual real experience of a family member who died due to the poor quality of care under socialized medicine is "being a sock puppet". The best form of defense is a rant (with swearing too woo-hoo!), it seems.
Unlike you I guess, I have actually lived under socialized medicine for most of my life. It stinks. Low quality of care, endless waiting, denial of treatments. The cancer survival rates in the UK concur.
And you can't even complain: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/health/one-third-of-patients-encounter-problems-with-nhs-1.820638#
Saying that the UK does not have a problem with immigrant doctors is a flat out lie. I also personally know several doctors who moved to the US to work as soon as they qualified in the UK.
The current proposals end up with the government in control of your health care decisions and timing. It will cost more than expected, it wont work as well as expected and care will be completely politicized. Every unnecessary death becomes a political football.
There are far better solutions to the problem than this mess. Time to start again.
Crisscross, you're still conflating the US proposals with socialized medicine.
Your experience, however important and real, is anecdotal. It is not evidence. I can tell you stories of my cousins in Ireland and how it has saved their lives. Doesn't make it right for America.
If you have a solution, propose it. Being contrary ain't it.
You said, "The current proposals end up with the government in control of your health care decisions and timing. It will cost more than expected, it wont work as well as expected and care will be completely politicized."
That's called a slippery slope. Those aren't facts, those are just things you are saying.
I know people who think bullet trains are needlessly fast, so we shouldn't repair rail bridges in Oklahoma. If we do it will just lead to a government monopoly on shipping!
And yes, you still sound like a sock puppet.
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