Zagat has its annual survey out on fast foot restaurants and there are some surprising results, at least to my tastes. Perhaps the most surprising is that Starbucks beat Berkeley, CA based chain Peet's Coffee for the title of best cup'o'joe.
Mind you, I'm not a Starbucks hater. It's fine. The stores are usually comfortable and well run, and it's often a convenient spot to sit down between meetings (or even to take a meeting).
What Starbucks isn't, however, is Peet's, a chain that elicits a ridiculous amount of loyalty from those in California and the few other locations where they have a store. Poll any ten San Franciscans, and I'd assure you with a high degree of confidence that at least seven of them would tell you that Peet's has the better coffee.
Perhaps this Zagat survey proves that San Francisco values are, true to the conservative refrain, are out of touch with those in the rest of the country. Except that, this isn't necessarily the apples-to-apples comparison that you might think. There are something like 200 Peet's Cofeee stores around the country; by comparison, there are something like 11,000 Starbuckses. Most of the people that Zagat surveyed have probably never even heard of Peet's Coffee, let alone tasted it.
Zagat's methodology is a little opaque, but from what I gather it's in fact quite simple and works like this. Periodically, Zagat sends surveys to a number of diners in a given area; these reviewers rate each restaurant they've sampled from 0 to 3. The ratings are then averaged together and multiplied by 10, so if I give a restaurant a 1 and my two best friends give it a rating of 2, it will get a composite score of 17, which is 1 plus 2 plus 2 divided by three, multiplied by 10, and rounded to the nearest whole number.
The problem is that different restaurants are rated by different numbers of people -- in a national survey of 6,000 adults, for instance, like the one that Zagat just conducted, Starbucks will get thousands of ratings and Peet's will probably only get a few dozen. When something like that happens, you could potentially encounter a problem such as this:
In this (entirely hypothetical) example, Starbucks finishes with a slightly higher rating on average than Peet's, even though from among the five people (Alice, Chloe, Felix, Gwyneth and Harry) that rated both Peet's and Starbucks, Peet's was rated as the superior option on three of the five ballots and was tied with Starbucks on the other two.
Perhaps this seems like a contrived example, but just for fun, I looked up the ratings on Yelp.com, another user-driven restaurant review service, for busy Starbucks and Peet's stores located about a block away from another on California Street in the Laurel Heights neighborhood of San Francisco. Overall, the ratings were barely distinguishable; the Starbucks store finished with 3.6 stars on average (out of 5 possible) and the Peet's finished with an average of 3.8. However, from among the 11 reviewers that rated both the Peet's and the Starbucks, six rated Peet's higher and just one preferred Starbucks, with the other four rating the two stores equally. What seems like a too-close-to-call verdict is actually a relatively clear one for Peet's.
Maybe Zagat's methodology is more sophisticated than I'm giving it credit for, but it seems to me that you have the appearance of a comparison when there really isn't one; very few of the people that rated Starbucks also rated Peet's, and probably some of the people that did rate Peet's failed to rate Starbucks. There might be demographic differences between the Starbucks' customers and the Peet's ones and there are certainly geographic ones. Perhaps it's also the case that Peet's customers are a bunch of San Francisco snobs and harsher critics in general and give lower ratings to all restaurants; that would tend to bias downward the results. I'm working on a consulting project for a (non-political) client right now and we're encountering a problem very much like this one.
People are generally much better at making comparisons between two things than they are taking any one thing as an abstraction. This is something to keep in mind when evaluating political polls. You can find lots and lots of surveys to suggest that people want to cut taxes, balance budgets, and have the government spend more on many key initiatives. Well, terrific: I'm sure they want to cure cancer, win the lottery, and increase the size of that certain part of the male anatomy too. But these economic goals are rather mutually exclusive; the question is what happens when people are asked to pick between them. Surveys generally reveal, for instance, that people prefer lower taxes to balanced budgets, and that they're willing to accept a higher tax burden for universal health care. It's those sorts of results that drive political calculations in Washington -- who's to say about their coffee preferences.
6.09.2009
Starbucks Beats Peet's?
by Nate Silver @ 7:58 AM
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105 comments
I'll take Peet's over Starbucks any day. Unfortunately, we don't have one in my area. Starbuck's is still okay though.
First! Oh, and I'm sure there are a few grammatical errors in there. Also, certainly not up tot he high standards of 538, so I'm taking my ball and going home. Must try Petes next time I'm in SF.
So how do you propose to calculate the ratings? Remember that these one-on-one comparisons can be intransitive (i.e. you have restaurants A, B, C, most people who rate both A and B prefer A to B, most people who rate both B and C prefer B to C, most people who rate both A and C prefer C to A). Maybe use an algorithm similar to ratings in chess or tennis?
Okay, so I was second. Therefore I will be fourth as well.
I HATE starbucks. Won't drink it. All their coffee is burnt.
Berkeley -- not Berkley
Unfortunately this means Petes is locked out of playing for the national championship game. If they perform well enough in the rose bowl maybe they can earn a portion of the national title.
WV= inten- One inten perfer Dunkin Doughnuts to Starbucks in a national blind taste test.
Starbucks was born out of Peets. But it developed a different style of roasting. A style that has led my brother (a Peet's fan) to refer to Starbucks as Charbucks. I agree with him.
Living where I do, I have a preference for Bigby's Coffee (formerly named Beaner's) over Starbucks. We don't have Peet's around here, alas.
Having tasted both, I prefer espresso "brewed" in Italy.
Please set up a burrito bracket for NYC, Nate. There are a lot of Latinos in NYC, I'm sure they also make decent hispanic food.
I know you don't have as much time as you used to, but I thought the Burrito Bracket was just as much fun to read as 538.
NYC is poor on the burrito front. Sure, "there are a lot of Latinos", but the burrito is a Mexican-American dish, not Puerto Rican, Dominican, Colombian, Salvadoran... hardly even Mexican really.
My take on Starbcks is that it suffers a bit from being the big brand, so those who stick to something else tend to have a kind of reverse snobbery mixed in with hard loyalty for 'their' brand.
At least here in the UK its the price that counts against Starbucks mostly. (In UK money for a medium with a shot of syrup Starbucks is around £3 whilst at Costa (the next biggest brnad in the UK) its around £2.60). Having said that just for coffee I would prefer Costa most of the time, but the range of drinks in Starbucks is usually better.
In addition, many true Berkelians feel that Peets has sold out and started tasting crappier ever since they imitated Starbucks and went national. Now that there's a Peets in every airport around the country, I think the possessiveness and extreme loyalty are toning down some.
We are lucky, we have both Peet's, Starbucks and the added joy of Dunkin donuts all in a 1/4 mile radius...And I've stepped in the Peet's exactly 2 times, that should tell you something...Of course, i would take Caribou over all of them, but alas, I do not have that option
You are saying that a higher proportion of Starbucks raters will give it the top category than the Peete's ratrs?
Doesn't that conflict with your idea that everyone who has had Pete's thinks that it's the best? Perhaps many of the Starbuck's raters are being fools, but the low ceiling on individual ratings makes it pretty easy for a great product to beat a mediocre one.
More importantly, Mr. Methodologist, you seem to be ignoring confidence intervals. Sure, with so few rates such little accidents can happen. You know that. But when you are talking about thousands or tens of thousands of raters, there's a but more robustness in even a simple analysis.
(Anyone can rate, by the way. I get asked all the time.)
Nate, it's always been painfully obvious to real foodies how simplistic -- and accordingly, inaccurate -- Zagat's methodology is. But you fail to mention the single biggest problem they have:
It's a SELF SELECTING SAMPLE. In other words, the only people who are voting are people who, first of all, had an interest in trying out the restaurant or shop, and second, wanted to go through the trouble of filling out a survey. Considering that Zagat gets a lot of their data from voluntary survey submissions, or members who have to PAY to submit their opinions, it's far from anyone's idea of a legitimate sample.
As a result, you can often see, in any major city, an excellent, unique restaurant that winds up scoring at the same level as TGIFriday's. Why? The real foodies aren't reviewing the TGIFridays, and for all we know some of the people reviewing the "good" restaurant are of the sort who will go to a Spanish Tapas place and get pissed off that there's no burritos...
ZAGATS IS WORSE THAN USELESS. They're misleading!
WV: "horke" - what I feel like doing when I see some of zagat's recommendations!
I'm in Cleveland and must get my Peet's in the bag to brew at home. Fine by me. Better brew and less expensive that 'bucks.and Folger's was never the same after Ms. Olson went through the change.
Walm..., er I mean Star@uck's is not just the "big brand". They're automated robotic behemoths who follow the Walmart method of seek and destroy, first the quality independents, then slowly up the food chain, at the expense of their workers, at the expense of quality, at the expense of a brand name that i once had respect for. I hope they choke on their bitter cup of swill and go bankrupt, and legitimate companies buy their stores and treat their workers correctly.
A coffee snob once said:
"French roast is for people who enjoy eating burnt toast", due to the carbon content.
This was on an NPR station in Seattle, and I'm in agreement.
Starbucks can be okay, but yeah. It's much more likely that their business plan got them the higher rating than the product served.
Is there anyone besides me who has taken notice of gasoline prices rising 67% since Barack Obama took office. I paid $1.50 for a gallon of regular unleaded gasoline on January 20th but close to $2.50 the other day. It looks like the price will soon be $3 or higher.
You libs screamed bloody murder when prices behaved this way under Bush. Where's the outrage now that it's doing the same under Obama?
@DaveNY: nobody uses (or should use) Zagat's to rate a chain restaurant like TGI Friday's.
I have done a fair number of evaluations for Zagat's, and I don't think there's "self-selection" in the sense of the scores being too high or too low. Believe me, my scores have run the gamut. If I get shitty service or bad food at a 26 Zagat, I feel compelled almost to write it up later. If I get a positive surprise by the quality of a 21 Zagat restaurant, I give it the score I feel it deserves. (Of course we can only rate in the three categories, not the overall score directly.)
In any case, when you're looking for a place in a town you're not familiar with, Zagat's is a good starting point (assuming you don't have a personal recommendation by someone you trust), but it's hardly definitive. Combine it with Yelp or some other ratings, read the actual comments by diners, and then proceed.
Casual, in case you're illiterate, this is a coffee discussion. Chris, do you know anyone who has been "mistreated" working for Starbuck's? because your language sounds like you know no one who has worked there. I'm sure it has its problems, but they have a pretty comprehensive healtjh plan for 20 hour a week employees, offer stock options, and pay really competitively. Claiming that it is like Wal Mart is really low ball and uninformed
Nate,
I think that there is another factor here that effects Zagat reviews: the more experience and knowledge one has of high end product the lower ones scores will be of more common goods. I think the example is more esily understood in reference to high end restaurants.
Using SF for the example: If one only eats at non-fancy places, and Mel's Diner is your favorite, Mel's gets the near perfect score. The rater who eats at The Slanted Door and Gary Danko these restaurants will get your highest marks. When asked to reivew Mel's diner, one will give it lower scores to fully utilize the points range. Even if one likes mel's.
You can see this result when you look at the high scores for places like In N out Burger, which approach those of the French Laundry. I just don't think many of the same people are giving them the same scores.
@Richard: I agree with you, which is why I wouldn't even compare or equate a given score for a chain restaurant with that for a one-of-a-kind restaurant. Raters have different expectations. A 27 doesn't mean the same thing across these different types of restaurants.
The same goes for different types one-of-a-kind restaurant. For example, if I'm looking for a breakfast or brunch place, I'm going to compare it with other breakfast/brunch places. A 24 there is not to be equated with a 24 for a restaurant that I'm looking for have dinner at.
There is something of the same effect when you're talking about ethnic or regional cuisines. What's the perfect taqueria? Well you need something like Burrito Bracket to rate taquerias against one another, and not try to decide whether the perfect burrito at $6 is "as good as" the perfect $200 dinner at Charlie Trotter's.
Recently moved from Berkeley to the Twin Cities in Minnesota. I order 2 pounds of Peets beans a month because I really miss Peets. And Caribou which dominates here is average at best. Mmmm, Peets.
Casual, in case you're illiterate, this is a coffee discussion.
Okay, dipshit, then why is a political/economic blog wasting its time and space on an inane discussion of 'Starbucks vs. Peet's'?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the top of the page it says 'Politics Done Right', no? I don't see anything anywhere on this site where it purports to be an expert on quality ratings of coffee shops.
So I believe my misplaced comment in the present discussion is far less of a problem than this being a misplaced post given the present blog's supposed topic areas of interest.
By the way, get bent, asshole.
I generally prefer Peets over Starbucks but if I'm lucky enough to have the choice I try not to get too snobbish about it. At Laurel Heights the Peets line is usually obnoxious, and the Cuban con leche joint on the corner wins out over both. Also, In n Out is the French Laundry of fast food burger joints, so Zagat is doing pretty well with the fuzzy math I think.
As a former San Franciscan myself, I can tell you that no there really likes either Starbucks or Peets, but that if you have to choose, only a philistine who likes the taste of tarmac and burnt rubber would pick Peets. Starbucks coffee is over-roasted and insipid, that is true enough. But God only knows in which furnaces in hell Peets turn theirs to cinders.
If anyone is in SF and would like good coffee, try Blue Bottle Coffee (either in Hayes Valley or at the Farmer's Market). There is nothing nearly so good anywhere but Italy. (They ship their beans, as well, and that God for that, or I'd never wake up in coffee-shit-hole Manhattan.)
Okay. Take a deep breath: Starbucks is not evil. They may be big and corporate, but far from evil.
There's an idea that Starbucks drove the indenpendents out of business like Walmart did with the Mom 'n Pops. But the truth is a bit different. There were no "premium" coffee shops before Starbucks in most of the country.
Instead, what usually happened is that Starbucks moves into a new town, and people in that town develop a taste for espresso style coffee. Then, independents start setting up their own stores.
I lived in Austin years ago before Starbucks and visited it many times since. When I lived in Austin, there was no decent place for coffee. There were some doughnut shops that sold coffee, but you came in for the doughnuts and the coffee was a side show.
Then, Starbucks moved in, and they were all over the place. Now, when I come back to Austin, it is full of independent coffee shops, and I haven't seen a Starbucks anywhere.
Personally, I have a few independents I really like. I usually ask for an espresso before I order anything else. If the espresso is bitter or burnt, I know not to order from there. Otherwise, I'll become a regular.
Starbucks' coffee is burnt. It's their corporate flavoring. It's how you know you're drinking Starbucks. It's not that it's bad, but it isn't my cup of joe.
At least, if you go to their corporate shops, they know how to make lattes and capuchinos. The problem is that Starbucks sells their name to grocery stores, but don't oversee those operations. That's where you get the really awful stuff.
I am not a big fan of the sweetened, fat ladden beverages like Frappachinos. I cam in wanting a cup of java, and not a sodapop. So, about three fours of Starbucks menu is simply invisible to me.
I haven't tried a Peet's shop since there are none in our area. Dunkin Doughnuts espresso and lattes are awful. I also think they serve their drip coffee way too hot. It's a way of making coffee seem "better" than it really is. People, if given a tasting choice between two cups of coffee will normally pick the hotter one.
Personally, I pick the independent shops. When I try a new place, I order an espresso because its the best way to see if the people there know what they're doing. Espressos should not be bitter or burnt, but they should be full bodied with a strong flavor and aroma. Once you know a place can make an espresso right, you know they can make all the espresso based drinks.
It's all relative to expectations, and I don't expect much convergence of opinion when it comes to coffee shops. My favorite breakfast place in town has what I call "perfect diner coffee." It's something like Maxwell House or equivalent -- and just what I want to have with my Polish omelet. If I want coffee for the sake of enjoying the coffee itself, I will either brew it myself or go to one of the fine coffee shops near where I work.
@Nate: One thing you should consider in your external project is the variance, not just the mean scores. It could be that some restaurant will get a much more consistent rating across different types of consumers than another.
Whoever did this never went to Urth Cafe
I'm going to give this a second shot, now that I realize what the more poignant response to John should have been...
Casual, in case you're illiterate, this is a coffee discussion.
John, in case you're mentally incompetent, this is a political blog.
the best way to compare the two is to compare incomes for starbuckses and peetses in similar locations (pop. density, local property value, etc).
on a survey, people who go to both will probably rate peets higher because it's hip to be "above" starbucks
"People are generally much better at making comparisons between two things than they are taking any one thing as an abstraction."
While true, this is misleading. People are better at comparing any TWO things, but when there are many more than two things (and there are many more than two chains of coffee shops), people perform much better by giving each thing an absolute ranking (if Peet's is really so good, but losing because they lack geographic coverage, why aren't they expanding? Maybe the truth is, not everyone thinks they're as good as you do.)
And to bring this to place more on-topic for 538, this is precisely the idea behind score-voting; a voting method that (surprise!) does a lot better at adjudicating contest between more than two options; which any supporter of third-party candidates, or anyone interested in getting the best candidate out of a three-way party primary (like the one today in Virginia), would be well-served to read up on:
http://scorevoting.net
http://leastevil.blogspot.com
Casual Observer:
Is it really necessary for you to use offensive language in a comment chain about coffee?
Is this your life? The nastiness, the anger? How sad it must be for you.
How about this: Consider writing a comment that contains no foul or offensive language, one that helps elevate the discussion.
Because, frankly, virtually everyone who reads your words wonders if you are OK.
I'm not opposed to baseball posts if there is something interesting to be discussed, surprising to point out, etc. But this post seems devoid of any analysis, conclusions, or relevance.
'Boston and New York are playing tonight, and they've played a lot in the past, and they've each won about half of the games they've played, and they sometimes win a few games in a row.'
Ummm... so what?
What the hell happened to the Yankees/Red sox thread?
Oops - I thought I was commenting on a post about baseball, which now doesn't appear on the site at all.
Am i losing my mind?
This site has derailed. They've abandoned politics and economics - no doubt because of their incompetence and cowardice on such matters and refusal to acknowledge we have a wicked Administration running the country run by demented and angry fools bereft of even basic leadership skills - in favor of coffee and baseball. And they "yanked" the baseball thread just minutes after posting it.
Fivethirtyeight is doomed to fail.
"Score voting" may be good for some purposes, but when the "candidates" are infinite in number, and the criteria for rating them don't vary randomly across the voters (e.g., people filter the info about candidates through an ideological or partisan lens), it's not all that clear what's the best method.
In surveys, when people are given multiple items to compare, it's just impractical to ask them to rank more than 4 or 5 objects. i.e., it takes too long. But even when they do the inevitable shortcut and do all paired comparisons, they may run into intransitivities. And so rankings (or choosing winners and losers) can be problematic.
In contrast, "score voting" -- giving each object a score on some kind of thermometer or other scale (just like Zagats does) -- is efficient in terms of the time it takes for respondents to complete the task. But this doesn't necessarily get them to make real comparisons or a prioritization that would be required if they ranked rather than scored.
When they score, they may end up with the "average" score being well above or well below average, or with there being virtually no difference in the mean ranking across the objects.
There are good examples of this problem on the General Social Survey, for example, rating the 12 ideal qualities of children or values for children. The GSS used to use score voting, but then decided it had to do some ranking (top 3, bottom 3) in order to get a truer sense of the respondents' value priorities.
Your client might want to consider a qualitative work up; then use the field report from the qual research to build a custom factor that would deal with your problem.
Almost nothing is quantitative from start to finish; and when aesthetics are in play it doesn't seem possible in the first place.
@Juris
That's an interesting point; perhaps the only voting methods in Prof. Warren Smith's 2000 study which you could argue performed better than score voting was "score voting followed by a top-two runoff vote".
The marginal improvement over increased costs however, pales in comparison to the improvement seen in moving from plurality to score voting (performance as measured by Bayesian regret, i.e., maximum utility minus expected utility).
Casual Observer: Go pedal your tricycle elsewhere. The adults are having a conversation.
What I'd like to know is, with the enthusiasm for premium, $4 coffee having swept America in the past 20 years, why can I still not buy a decent cup of tea?
Tazo in Starbucks? Good tea, made badly.
My current peeve? Overpriced, affected super-premium broad leaf loose leaf pekoe hand tied in a small muslin bag then dipped in 3oz of tepid water and sold for four bucks. Yuk.
Tea response. Bring your own tea. Beg for or buy the water.
Americans really suck at tea. In general they're barely better at coffee. Or beer for that matter.
I’ve been passionate about my coffee for over three decades now, and I can say with confidence that both Peet’s and Starbucks offer consistently mediocre coffee.
Flying Goat in Healdsburg (California), has a truly outstanding cup, by contrast. I’ve run into a few others along the way, but great coffee is hard to find. Personally, I buy green beans from Sweet Maria’s and roast my own.
Wasting energy on Peet’s vs. Starbucks seems kind of silly, given how bad they both are. Strong partisans of Peet’s or Starbucks simply know nothing about coffee.
…And don’t get me started on Zagat.
Keep in mind that while Pete's may have Berkeley locked up, Starbucks has Seattle. Your description of how San Franciscans view Pete's vs Starbucks is polar opposite in Seattle.
As said before, "Berkeley" not "Berkley" - but that's besides the point, Peet's is based in Emeryville (founded in Berk.). How about some love for the less famous industrial neighbor?
This is all still besides the point, which is, Peet's is delicious.
In Boston at least Starbucks is starting to offer "small-batch" coffee made with a fancy coffee press called a Clover. They offer selections from around the globe.
I never was a big fan of "Charbucks" but lately they seem to be reaching out to real coffee aficionados. They changed their basic brew to "Pike's Place" which I find palatable.
But the real good stuff is the small-batch. Hopefully they roll that out to more stores soon.
I've tried Pete's and it was nothing to write home about.
Yes, but what of my beloved Coffee Bean?
I live in Berkeley and I love good coffee.
That is why I don't go to Peet's.
Peet's coffee is too burnt and all of their offerings taste the same.
Anyone who wants good coffee in the Bay Area go to Ritual or Blue Bottle.
Starbucks is the equivalent of WalMart in terms of quality products, at least.
Starbucks is like Budweiser, low quality but sells a ton because Americans have incredibly low standards.
The microbreweries almost always make better beer, so is it with smaller coffee houses.
Starbucks is like McDonalds. Could you imagine a local joint or regional chain making such bland burgers?
we have a wicked Administration running the country run by demented and angry fools bereft of even basic leadership skills...
Ass Rider the only demented and angry fool is you.
You need to look in the mirror, angry and demented is a perfect description of you.
Hopefully, health care will soon be affordable so you can get the medication you so desperately need.
Who the fudge cares about Starbucks vs. Peets?
What a self-absorbed bunch of losers you all are!
Don't you understand that there are millions of unemployed in this country and that since he took office Obama has seen 1.8 million people lose their jobs and now presides over an unemployment rate of 9.4%? The highest in 25 years!
Imagine if George Bush were President. You can be sure the media would be crying about all the misery that is out there. Instead we are regaled about America's new glam couple, jetting to New York and Paris on dates while the people suffer.
She does look great in sleeveless though, doesn't she?
petekent01 (on twitter)
It's all name recognition and herd mentality. Everyone knows Starbucks, everybody goes to Starbucks thus Starbucks must be good.
I for the life of me do not understand the whole appeal of Starbucks. Their fare is so-so. The fact that people go to the stores to hang out, to do work but mostly to be seen is beyond unfathomable. My Ex used to life and breath Starbucks and worship it like a pagan God - He was insane in many other ways as wells. But when you really pressed him to tell you why he adored it with an unholy veneration he was usually at a loss for words to explain why. Again name recognition and herd mentality.
BTW I've been to one Peets and liked it little bit better than Starbucks but I wouldn't throw my money away everyday just so I can be seen drinking there.
PK,
People suffer everyday, do you stop living because of it? Of course, I doubt you care when the people suffering have dark skin and live in scary sounding countries.
Things are improving slowly. The Obama administration is working hard to improve things unlike Bush who did everything he could to destroy America, while you cheered him on.
It took 30+ years for Reagonomics to bring is to the brink, it will take more then 5 months to fix the damage trickle down and unfettered wasting of money by Republican administrations caused.
I have been to both Starbuck's and Peet's in the Bay area and in the Portland area. I really think it depends on the Starbucks or Peet's that you visit.
I tend to like the flavor of Starbucks coffee a little more. Peet's is ok but I feel like their drinks aren't as consistent from one store to the next. Also they aren't usually as friendly as Starbucks. But that is just my personal experience.
Coffee People was the best until they got bought by Starbucks, now you can only find them in the Portland Airport.
The media lets Obama get away with phony jobs claims.
http://tinyurl.com/n55dex
What a disgusting conspiracy!
petekent01 (on twitter)
Beavis,
You are an apologist for failure and perfectly illustrate my point that had this been the George Bush admin you'd be wailing and wringing your hands!
And you are nasty piece of work for throwing in a gratuitous racial slur without knowing the first thing about me. Go sip your effing mocha, you queer!
The truth is things continue to get worse, as witness the continuing number of people laid off and the rise in the unemployment rate.
You attack Reaganomics as a failure while it ushered in 30 years of prosperity that was arrested by the natural turn in the business cycle. We have not seen such Misery since Jimmy Carter. Now there's a parallel for you.
Take a critical look at the liar you have elected.
His economic plans are only rivaled by his foreign policy in their miscalculations.
petekent01 (on twitter)
Pizza Pizza, the biggest pizzeria franchise in Toronto, is invariably voted best in any poll. Their stuff is about average, but most people have eaten there at least once.
The problem is the same -- Pizza Nova, Mama's Pizza, Pizzaville, Pizzaiolo, and other better chains have far fewer locations, so fewer people can eat there, so fewer people know that these are better.
There are obviously also non-franchise pizzerias as well as fantastic Italian restaurants like Terroni that make pizza crack, but even fewer people will have eaten at those.
Obama's tax policies are designed to destroy American business.
Does he secretly want them all to fail so he can take them over?
You would think so after reading this and seeing how wrong-headed his strategies are.
Wake up!
This guy is rolling y'all!
http://tinyurl.com/kkygub
petekent01 (on twitter)
To respond in an uncharacteristically reasonable way to PK and Casual (and anyone else who thinks this thread has veered from the purpose of this blog):
As Nate says in the article above, the purpose of examining a poll about coffee services is that it provides a simple and effective example of poor polling practices. This will help us all to better understand the problems with political polling.
Also, it's a fun break from otherwise serious business.
Rather than hurt the credibility of the blog, it improves it.
The one place I've been which does tea right is the Tao of Tea, in Portland. They have a couple of locations, and we went to the one in the Chinese Garden downtown. Best tea we've ever had. They have about five different ways of making and serving tea depending on the type (green, black, smoked etc.)
Amercian Jewish youth spew hatred for Obama in Israel.
http://tinyurl.com/m78p5p
That's one constituency he has lost!
petekent01 (on twitter)
PK said
His economic plans are only rivaled by his foreign policy in their miscalculations.
-------------------
Which miscalculations in FP are these?
Back on topic, tea is not difficult to make, I don't get why Americans can't seem to get it right. The only thing that might hold them back in cafes is that the water really needs to be boiling in order to brew the tea enough, and maybe health and safety makes that hard?
Americans threw their tea into the harbour--that's the preferred steeping method! :p
I have seen more looseleaf around, however (or possibly I've just started paying attention to it). For those in the northeast, Wegman's Quality Market sells a nice variety of black, green, white, herbal, and rooibos teas that you measure out yourself. Whole Foods also sells looseleaf, but at a higher price premium (and the selection is less--from what I know of the Whole Foods and Wegman's I frequent, anyway). Or you can check out http://www.teamap.com/ for options outside of the house--but unlike coffee/expresso, tea doesn't require $1000 equipment to get right. :D
Juris -- but you're just reinforcing my point. Without either some sort of objective measure, or a common metric, what value are the ratings? Your standards may be very different from that of other diners. Also, there IS a large degree of self-selection, as Richard pointed out, the expectations among different diners may vary greatly. I garauntee you, if someone's only fancy restaurant experience in a decade is French Laundry, they're going to probably be a lot more impressed (or put-off) than someone who regularly attends fine dining establishments.
Also, for someone claiming to be a frequent Zagats person, I was a little surprised you didn't know they DO rate chains like TGI Fridays in there!
I will agree though, that written reviews are far more useful. They're even more useful when you can look at what other places that reviewer has been too, and seen how they've responded to those.
In other words, it would be more useful if you read a professional critic rather than an aggregation of voluntary comment cards un-adjusted for response rates, relative expectations, etc.
Mrs. Obama and the girls play in London town while one in eight Americans are starving.
http://tinyurl.com/l9zvrz
Do you think Michelle would prefer Peets over Starbucks?
petekent01 (on twitter)
MarkyMark,
Miscalculations in foreign policy include degrading the good name of the US before the World, responding passively to North Korean aggression and encouraging Iranian nuclear ambition.
That's a good start in four months, wouldn't you say?
petekent01 (on twitter)
@DaveNY: The last thing I'm going to Zagats for is it's rating of TGI Friday's or any chain restaurant (that's not why I'm an on-line subscriber). And when I go to a restaurant that's already listed in Zagats I usually post my own take on things (have probably posted several dozen such evaluations -- in NYC, Chicago, SFO, PDX, and elsewhere).
I certainly realize that people have different standards, and after all that's why Zagats and others rely on the "wisdom of crowds." And it does calculate mean scores -- though personally I'd like to know the variance, too. Of course you don't get a truly high score (27+) without satisfying the vast majority of clients, but when scores drop below 25 or so, I'd sure like to know what proportion of clients were really DISsatisfied. (I have given a 0 to a couple of otherwise very fine restaurants based on truly piss-poor service. A 0-3-3 nets them out at 20.)
Nate -
If you are in NYC you should be getting your coffee beans at Porto Rico - better and cheaper than Peet's, let alone Starburnt. Starburnt is a good place to sit with a cup of tea if nothing else is available.
If you like your coffee charred, Porto Rico will sell you "French Roast" miniature charcoal briquettes, I mean coffee beans. All their beans come in regular and French roast.
(Of course, dark roast is good when it's used to make espresso).
I didn't like Peets in SF but here in Silicon Valley Peets rules and Starbucks sucks. Huge difference here. Besides, Peets still uses traditional espresso machines with handles, vs. automatic ones in Starbucks - its like using frozen vegetables vs. fresh.
Sadly the discussion about coffee polling, and coffee, has been derailed by the infantile PeteKent and his idiot-in-arms Casual Observer. Why don't you guys do some tea bagging together. (Ugh. The visual.)
For me its all about the 1/2 & 1/2. As long as a place has the real stuff and not that junk that comes in the little individual cups I'm happy. Enough good 1/2 & 1/2 and even bad coffee is fine.
.
Starbucks doesn't know JACK about coffee: One of our exporters here in Kona imported a bunch of Costa Rican beans and sold them as Kona. Starbucks never knew the difference. They stopped selling Kona & Jamaica Blue Mt. after word got out. I heard their chief taster yammering on NPR about how dark roasts don't bring out the flavour like light roasts. Yeeccchh. Who the Hell put SEATTLE in charge of coffee? NY & SF have been sucking up the espresso since their first bricks were laid.
Plus, SB's treats their employees like sh*t: Minimum wage MINUS tips that go to the Mgrs. I hope they go under soon.
.
PK said
Miscalculations in foreign policy include degrading the good name of the US before the World, responding passively to North Korean aggression and encouraging Iranian nuclear ambition.
That's a good start in four months, wouldn't you say?
-----------------------
Ok, firstly how has he degraded the good name of the US? At all I mean. Without having figures to hand IO would imagine that the US has a much higher standing in the world than it had on the 19th January. Secondly how exactly has he 'encouraged' Iranian nuclear ambitions?
And what would you have preferred the US to do over North Korea? Start a Nuclear war?
markymark,
Don’t play with me. You know full well Otraitor has used every opportunity he has had to trash US history and its role in world history. It’s easy to make those foreigners love you when you trash where you come from.
Thanks to him (and the water boarding of three people) we are now forever regarded as a nation of torturers and a leading human rights abuser.
What a curious view of American history he has.
Such self-loathing is not uncommon among abandoned children and is often cloaked with narcissism and an overweening sense of self-importance.
What's ur excuse?
Ya Pa made you look at too many CK underwear ads back in the day?
petekent01 (on twitter)
Nate,
A word about selection:
It may well be the case that people who have tried both Starbucks and Peet's prefer Peet's and perhaps this is a better criterion for determining ratings (though, in practice, it makes it pretty complicated. If you are choosing between 10 different venues, probably no one has rated all 10. If you just look at them pairwise, you might have A < B < C < A or something. What then?).
However, is the sample of people who have rated Starbucks and Peet's really random enough? Perhaps this group differs somehow from the general population (coffee connoisseurs, perhaps).
Zagat has long since declined. It started on a small scale as a guide by high-end business travelers for high-end business travelers. It was limited to the big cities where these people typically go, and the idea was to advise people where to take colleagues and clients.
That worked quite well, but with success Zagat's expanded to include too many cities and too many establishments. The roster of reviewers and, the polling base, expanded. Now, Zagat's is no longer a business traveler's guide.
I'm frankly not sure what Zagat's is anymore, but it's not a reliable guide to much of anything. The idea that they'd be rating Starbucks v Peets shows how far from the roots they've strayed. And their restaurant ratings have become inflated, and as I noted, way too inclusive. I knew this a long time ago when I saw a rating on a Cheesecake Factory. You might like Cheesecake Factory, but they are not "original Zagat" material.
To me, this is yet one more example of a phenomenon that I can't name but that I've long recognized. You see it with performers. They make their reputation with tight, fine-crafted work, and once famous they become lazy and undisciplined. Think Elton John in 1970-1973 vs. his Liberace Jr. years.
See PK you came so close to entering into a debate there. Obama has never 'trashed' America. If you think he has come up with some quotes to back up your point.
And I think maybe Bush and Cheney have more to do with America being regarded as a nation of torturers, as that image pre dated Obama being in office. Here is Obama at Normandy this last Saturday
'In America, it was an endeavor that inspired a nation to action. A President who asked his country to pray on D-Day also asked its citizens to serve and sacrifice to make the invasion possible. On farms and in factories, millions of men and women worked three shifts a day, month after month, year after year. Trucks and tanks came from plants in Michigan and Indiana, New York and Illinois. Bombers and fighter planes rolled off assembly lines in Ohio and Kansas, where my grandmother did her part as an inspector. Shipyards on both coasts produced the largest fleet in history, including the landing craft from New Orleans that eventually made it here to Omaha'.
How is that trashing America?
Seriously you'd be a lot more credible if you weren't so crazy.
Funny. We have Peet's here in Cambridge, Mass., and I'll take Starbucks over Peet's any day. But I'll agree that Starbucks is just ok.... To my mind, Seattle's Best wins hands down.
Pete Kent and his ilk have the power to edit reality; or at least, they try to convince us they do.
Hey, Peteyboy. Try listening to Obama's supposed "Traitorous" speeches. If anything, he's trashing the last 8 years, and if you can't remember too clearly, didn't Bush, Cheney, Rice, and practically EVERYONE in the former administration say "Let history Judge us?"
Well, they're history, and they're being judged.
Compare Obama's response to North Korea to that of your sainted Bush. Oh my word, it's the same thing!
Any rational president wouldn't start unilateral war when the North Koreans can't even hit the US. You want China to step away from North Korea and state they're fed up with the posturing and feeling threatened enough to destroy all launch capabilities North Korea has. The US would lead that (unparalleled air power) and we'd be seen as the rational nation that gave the North Koreans every chance to stop being idiots. +1 for the US, that.
As for unemployment, this is the result of greed without restrictions. Wait, that's the CONSERVATIVE platform on economics!
So petey, miladdo, feel free to take as much of this out of context as you like; you'll do it anyway, because you have nothing but hate, when reality and reason don't match your perfect world.
Starbucks is the WalMart of coffee, pass.
Come on,people.Make your lives more pleasant by blocking trolls like PeteKent and Casual Observer!
From http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/43818
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Script Summary:
Removes troll's comments fromfivethirtyeight.com.
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To add trolls, from your firefox browser select 'Tools'->'Greasemonkey'->'Manage User Scripts'. Select '538TrollRemover' and click 'Edit'. Add any new trolls to the trollList array near the beginning of the script.
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I'm working on getting this to work with one of the IE extensions."
Starbucks coffee is pretty good when you make it at home, especially if you brew it really dark. But in their stores it is TERRIBLE. I don't know if their machines are all set to "burn" or what, but it's pretty disgusting if you get a straight cup of coffee.
Never been to a Pete's, but I can't imagine it's worse than what they serve in a Starbucks. Though I prefer Tully's. Never tastes burned and it's got a very unique taste that comes through even with a lot of milk and syrup. Too bad they've basically sold their business off to Green Mountain and could very well go bankrupt and disappear from retail entirely over the next couple of years.
I don't drink coffee, but I'm at a loss for words as to how McDonalds can even be rated in the Top 5 for Best Burger. Their burgers are nigh-inedible. I will take *anybody's* burger over McDonalds.
You are an apologist for failure and perfectly illustrate my point that had this been the George Bush admin you'd be wailing and wringing your hands!
The Bush administration and 30 years of failed Republican policies are what put us in this mess.
Being patient for results from the cleaning crew is prudent.
Nothing Obama has done has hurt the economy. If McCryptKeeper and Caribou barbie were in power, we would be a lot worse off than we are now.
And you are nasty piece of work for throwing in a gratuitous racial slur without knowing the first thing about me. Go sip your effing mocha, you queer!
LOL Do I need to point out the irony in that statement. I probably do since a dumbass like you does not understand much.
Besides, I have been here since August and have seen plenty of racism from you and your party is nothing but a pack of self-loathing racists.
The truth is things continue to get worse, as witness the continuing number of people laid off and the rise in the unemployment rate.
Obama did not cause it.
You attack Reaganomics as a failure while it ushered in 30 years of prosperity that was arrested by the natural turn in the business cycle. We have not seen such Misery since Jimmy Carter. Now there's a parallel for you.
30 years of prosperity for the chosen elite while everyone else got poorer. Meanwhile the elite were let off the leash which leads to the disaster Obama has to clean up.
Take a critical look at the liar you have elected.
What lies? He told us what he wanted to do and he is doing just that. I won't expect specifics from you since you are an idiotic trailer-trash redneck doing nothing but spouting talking points.
Meanwhile Cheney just admitted that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 which means he lied over and over as VP.
His economic plans are only rivaled by his foreign policy in their miscalculations.
Really?
The US is gaining in stature, countries are starting to trust us again and the economy is slowly righting itself.
What a fantasy land you must dwell in.
Of course, let's see specifics from you, which I know are not forthcoming.
Not once PK, have you ever posted anything correct on this website.
Mrs. Obama and the girls play in London town while one in eight Americans are starving.
Have you done anything that was not absolutely necessary?
Of course you are. That is what makes you a laughable troll hypocrite.
Miscalculations in foreign policy include degrading the good name of the US before the World, responding passively to North Korean aggression and encouraging Iranian nuclear ambition.
Did your mother drop you on your ugly head when you were a child?
Bush destroyed the good name of the US. Utterly destroyed it with his fearmongering, threats, starting wars based on lies, buffoonish behavior in public around the world(see the drunken Bush being helped up by the secret service at the Olympics), and just general dumbassery.
Are you really this stupid or do you just troll for the sake of trolling?
Thanks to him (and the water boarding of three people) we are now forever regarded as a nation of torturers and a leading human rights abuser.
WHAT THE FUCK?
Wasn't it Bush and company that did the actual torturing? Yet, it is Obama's fault.
I arrived in Berkeley in 1976. There had to be 20 coffee houses within a mile all ways of the campus. Picked up my love for Kenya AA beans, lattes and iced coffee sometime during that first year.
By the time Starbucks made it into the Bay Area (Peet's sold by mail to those who weren't in driving range) I was on the penninsula. They put a number of independents out of business relatively quickly. I adapted to the new reality, but I missed the mix.
A few years later I was flying into PA off and on for my job and I was relieved first day when I found the Starbucks in King of Prussia. By the time I left PA (I'd relocated after 8 months) there were a number of independent coffee places in the college town closest to my place of employment and Starbucks was in Central PA. Last time I was there though I couldn't find one in Chambersburg. I once commented to my wife that whenever I was in Chambersburg I sort of expected to see Confederate troops coming up the road so I guess I shouldn't have been surprise, but I was. I see there's one on the Lincoln Hwy today.
I'm back in the west and, while Peet's and Starbucks are a short drive away, I drink most of my coffee at home now. Still, Peet's changed coffee for those who knew of it (including a Starbucks founder)and Starbucks changed coffee for everyone in one way or another. All to the good in my opinion. Remember The Best Part of Waking Up and Good to the Last Drop?
Sad and jealous Cas. Sad and stupid Pete. The same old same old when they could be talking coffee.
Have to say, this is pretty funny- though I prefer Peets, I go to that Starbucks on California since its the only 24 hour cafe in m neighborhood. Of course, the real snobs go to Blue Bottle and the traditionalists go to Trieste...
Gah! Peet's is SO superior to Starbucks. That is very sad. Starbucks lost me when they brought those machines in that crank out the nastiest espresso in the world.
We have a Peets here in my thinks it's little, town. Along with half a dozen Starbucks. The local grocery also now serves Peets. (They used to serve Java City coffee...which IS superior to both Starbucks and Peets)
I used to stand in line for Java City. The same people that made my wonderful Java City coffee are making the coffee the same way. Why does it taste like dirt? Oh. Because it's PEET'S. I don't see lines there anymore.
Still lines out. the. door. at Starbucks. The drive thru's are easily a dozen cars long.
Peet's tastes like dirt. When there IS a taste. It's very weak. Even my daughter's was supposed to be hot, but not, hot chocolate was like they just had the chocolate in the same room, and didn't actually use any of it.
I keep thinking that it's because they had just opened or the barista was a new hire or SOMETHING that wasn't systemic and actually related to the great and wonderful Peet's Coffee.
No. It's Peet's. I'll go for (ick) Caribou Coffee before I'll choose a Peet's.
I go to both the starbucks & peets in Laurel. peets for their delicious coffee, starbucks because this particular one is open late and I've discovered it to be a relatively ok spot to do some late-night work. If that peets were open late, I'd head down the sidewalk...peets is delicious.
This is called "range voting."
It would be a better way to conduct elections.
See
http://RangeVoting.org.
Another phenomenon not commented on in the article is what I'll call "underdog voting". A fan of Peet's on a site like Yelp is likely to rate Peet's highly AND go to the nearby Starbucks and rate it poorly since Starbucks is seen as the 1000 lb gorilla to beat. However, a fan of Starbucks isn't just as likely to go to every other lesser competitor and down-rate ALL of them (or even ANY of them) just to help support their majority brand of choice. This will influence your crosstabulations as the majority of the people rating both Peet's and Starbucks are going to be Peet's fans and not Starbucks fans nor neutral sampling voters.
Peet's weak? Must be the maker.
I don't feel that I know a lot absolute truths in this world, but what I do know is that Peets' is better than Starbucks. There are arguments to be made for other coffees, certainly, but not Starbucks. Starbucks reminds me of an old Mad Magazine cartoon where they had 32 flavors of ice cream advertised, but they were really all vanilla. Starbucks is the same, except they're all "burnt" or "French Roast" or whatever it is. Peets has flavors I like and don't like, but they taste distinguishable from each other and I can actually describe a flavor profile.
That said, if I'm in the sticks, I'll happily go to Starbucks, because really I just need something to wake me up.
Hi,
Here I am again.
I love starbucks.
Is the only place in US where I can have a good "espresso".
ciao.
Peet's is OK. I won't go into Starbucks unless I have to. The best coffee in the Bay Area is at Barefoot Coffee Roasters in Santa Clara, and at Epicenter Cafe in San Francisco, which buys from Barefoot. You can buy Barefoot beans at Whole Foods. If you are serious about coffee, get a conical burr grinder.
I used to think I didn't like coffee, until I tried the good stuff. Certain Ethiopians, especially.
Opus 132 said...
Come on,people. Make your lives more pleasant by blocking trolls like PeteKent and Casual Observer!
+1
Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, upset, and tired, while the pig enjoys it.
I forget who commented about tea, but whoever you were, I get the feeling you've never been to Peet's. Starbucks' lines of tea have never interested me, while I've never had an issue with them either. Peet's, however, has a terrific lineup of teas from various categories of tea. Not just "a green tea", but a list of green teas (I recommend Jasmine Fancy). Peet's will also give you a free cup of hot tea when you are buying your loose-leaf tea for home.
I can't speak for straight-up coffees, because I'm more of a latte/frozen blended drink person myself. But in those two categories, I'd rate Starbucks as really good, and Peet's as exquisite. I cannot stand Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf's comparable beverages, and generally find small operators (mom & pop shops) to fall on the bad side of the line far more often than the good side.
Starbucks gets my business for convenience sake, but convenience being equal, or when I need a treat, Peet's gets my business.
And to the trolls: this discussion is entirely relevant to a political blog because it demonstrates, in an environment free of people's political biases, the fallacy of many approaches to polling, and brings to the forefront the issues with separating the wheat from the chaff when determining what the nation wants from its leaders.
Intelligentsia blows both Peets and Starbucks out of the water. It's not even in the same league, really.
They're apparently mostly based in Chicago though - they have one location in LA.
San Franciscans have Ritual - pretty great too, I've heard.
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