UPDATED at 5:45 PM to include Lake/HCAN poll
A major, though by no means the only, substantive point of debate regarding health care reform is whether the plan considered by Congress will include a "public option" -- a government-run insurance program that would compete with private plans. Barack Obama's plan on the campaign trail included a public option: "any American will have the opportunity to enroll in the new public plan or an approved private plan," it said.
Inclusion of a public option is a sine qua non for many progressives, who believe it would lower costs by increasing competition, or who may have an objection to the notion of requiring that people (since health care would have an individual mandate) purchase something through a private, for-profit entity. On the other hand, the public option has drawn the ire of conservatives and industry groups, who believe that it would gobble up profit margins from private industry and that it might have unfair competitive advantages. Both liberals and conservatives seem to acknowledge some possibility that a public option might gradually evolve into a version of a single-payer system; for liberals this is a big plus and for conservatives a big minus. The revised plan released by Max Baucus's Senate Finance Committee on Thursday did not include a public option, although the House's latest version does.
It is worth evaluating polling on the public option, which has begun to be widely cited in the blogosphere, particularly by liberals who believe most of the polling favors them. The balance of this post contains a summary of the five six polls that I am aware of on the public option, which produce widely disparate results and all of which require careful interpretation.
1. Kaiser Family Foundation Tracking Poll
Who They Are / What's Their Angle: A California based non-profit founded in 1948 by Henry J. Kaiser. The Foundation no longer has any association with Kaiser Permanente, which operates hospitals and insurance programs mostly in the South and the West. KFF released numerous materials on the candidates' positions on health care in advance of the 2008 election which generally took a neutral tone. KFF itself has not given money to political candidates, although its employees collectively donated $11,700 in 2008 and $9,550 in 2006 to Judith Feder, a public policy expert who is an adviser to KFF and ran unsuccessfully for Congress as a Democrat in Virginia's 10th Congressional District.
Specifications: 1,205 American adults, including cellphone and Spanish-language samples, conducted from June 1-June 8. The sample was split in half, however, for the two formulations of the public option question as expressed below, and so sample sizes for each one are closer to 600.
Question Wording and Results:
"Now I'm going to read you some different ways to increase the number of Americans covered by health insurance. As I read each one, please tell me whether you would favor it or oppose it [...]
"Creating a public health insurance option similar to Medicare to compete with private health insurance plans."
Favor: 68% (40% strongly favor)
Oppose: 28% (17% strongly oppose)
"Creating a public health insurance option to compete with private health insurance plans."
Favor: 65% (32% strongly favor)
Oppose: 29% (17% strongly oppose)
Discussion: One suspects that KFF is pro-reform, but they seem to have taken care to frame their materials in ways that avoid partisan scrutiny. Their question wording is fairly straightforward but does not include the phrase "government", which might provide more clarity to the respondent about exactly what the public option is. Note, however, that they phrase the question in two different ways: to half their sample they include the phrase "similar to Medicare" and to the other half they don't. Responses were about the same between the two question wordings, although the half that had the Medicare language included were notably more likely to strongly favor the public option. Including a sample of cellphones and Spanish-language interviewers are nice perks. Although the sample sizes are not huge, particularly since the sample was split into halves, KFF found nearly identical results in their April tracking poll.
Non-partisanship rating: 
Question wording: 
Sample size, sample selection and disclosure: 
Overall informativeness: 
2. Employee Benefits Research Institute (EBRI)
Who They Are / What's Their Angle: A Washington, D.C. - based nonprofit, which is focused -- as their name implies -- on research on employee benefit programs. I can find no evidence of lobbying activities or campaign contributions by ERBI. They are funded by a largely corporate set of donors such as American Express, Chevron, IBM, Shell Oil and Towers Perrin, although they also receive financing from noncorporate groups like AARP and Blue Cross Blue Shield. An issue brief that EBRI prepared on the public option was neutral to slightly skeptical about it. The poll was conducted in conjunction with Mathew Greenwald & Associates.
Specifications: 1,000 American adults aged 21 and over. Interviews conducted from May 8th through June 2nd.
Question Wording and Results:
"Creating a new public health insurance plan that anyone can purchase."
Support: 83% (53% strongly support)
Oppose: 14% (9% strongly oppose)
Discussion: Information about this poll was a little bit harder to come by than it probably should be. For example, I had to look in a separate press release to find details about its sample size. Nor is it clear that the entire battery of questions was released in ERBI's summary brief. The selection of adults 21+, rather than 18+, is also unorthodox, and is a strange enough choice that I wonder about the other decisions ERBI made in constructing its sample. EBRI's poll was also the only one which did not specify that the public option would be designed to compete with private plans.
Non-partisanship rating: 
Question wording: 
Sample size, sample selection and disclosure: 
Overall informativeness: 
3. Consumers Union
Who They Are / What's Their Angle: Not a labor union; Consumers' Union is instead a Yonkers, NY-based non-profit group and the publisher of Consumer Reports. They take a somewhat unabashedly liberal view on health care reform and the poll was released in conjunction with Democratic Senator Chuck Schumer. The Consumers Union' generally spends several hundred thousand dollars on lobbying activities each year.
Specifications: 2,009 American adults aged 18 and over. Interviews conducted from April 2nd to April 6th, 2009.
Question Wording and Results:
"Congress is discussing several ideas to address healthcare reform. One proposal provides everyone, whether insured or uninsured, an additional choice: the option of a public health plan that people can count on to cover what they need at more affordable rates. This option would allow people with good insurance that they like to keep it. Those without good insurance can gain access to reliable healthcare, regardless of preexisting medical conditions, and obtain a consistent menu of benefits. This public plan would be paid for by enrollees. Those that cannot afford to pay the full premiums would be subsidized based on their income.
Please rate your level of support for this proposal."
Support: 66% (33% strongly support)
Oppose: 16% (8% strongly oppose)
Discussion: This is more or less an explicitly partisan poll, both in terms of the organization backing it and in its question wording, which is leading and highly favorable to the public option. The large sample size is nice, but Consumers Union' should have picked more neutral phrasing.
Non-partisanship rating: 
Question wording: 
Sample size, sample selection and disclosure: 
Overall informativeness: 
4. Rasmussen Reports
Who They Are / What's Their Angle: Regular readers of this website will be very familiar with Rasmussen Reports, a standalone polling firm that releases a prolific amount of polling data on elections and public policy issues. Past FiveThirtyEight.com analyses have generally found Rasmussen's electoral polling to be quite reliable. However, some observers have questioned its issue-based polling, which frequently tends to elicit responses that are more conservative than those found on other national surveys. Rasmussen Reports' founder, Scott Rasmussen, is a Republican, although neither he nor Rasmussen Reports have appear to have contributed to political candidates in recent years. Nor to my awareness does Rasmussen Reports conduct a significant amount of polling directly on behalf of political candidates.
Specifications: 1,000 American adults on June 12th and 13th. Assuming that procedures here were the same as for other Rasmussen polling, surveys were conducted via the IVR ("robocall") method and were weighted for partisan identification and other factors.
Question Wording and Results:
"Would it be a good idea to set up a government health insurance company to compete with private health insurance companies?"
Yes: 41%
No: 41%
Discussion: I am not particularly fond of this question wording. For one thing, unlike the other polls, it focuses on the action of setting up the "government health insurance company" rather than the choice of insurance plans this ultimately presents to the consumer. For another, it is not clear that a new program would have to be "set up" in order to provide for a public option (i.e. an existing program like Medicare could be expanded), nor that any such entity would properly be described as a "company". The poll seems designed to juxtapose the terms "government" and "company" in a way that might elicit a negative response. (Note that I actually like the inclusion of the term "government" in conjunction with, or perhaps instead of, the term "public". The problem is not with the term "government" itself but instead with the overall way that the question is phrased.)
Non-partisanship rating: 
Question wording: 
Sample size, sample selection and disclosure: 
Overall informativeness: 
5. NBC / Wall Street Journal
Who They Are / What's Their Angle: Presumably you are familiar with NBC News and the Wall Street Journal. The NBC/WSJ polls themselves are conducted by Hart/McInturff, a pairing of Democratic pollster Peter Hart and Republican pollster Bill McInturff. Likewise, the NBC/WSJ pairing itself is a collaboration between a somewhat left-leaning and somewhat right-leaning news organization. This is an excellent model to avoid partisanship, both in appearance and in practice.
Specifications: 1,008 American adults on June 12th-15th, including a cellphone sample.
Question Wording and Results:
"In any health care proposal, how important do you feel it is to give people a choice of both a public plan administered by the federal government and a private plan for their health insurance––extremely important, quite important, not that important, or not at all important?
Extremely Important: 41%
Quite Important: 35% (76% Extremely or Quite Important)
Not That Important: 12%
Not At All Important: 8% (20% Not That or Not At All Important)
Discussion: I have no problem with the formulation of the question; in fact, I particularly like the wording "a public plan administered by the federal government" which makes clear that the public plan is in fact government-run. But I have a big problem with the choice of answers. "Importance" is a notoriously vague concept in public opinion polling and may be separate and distinct from asking someone whether or not they support a particular policy. How might someone respond to this question, for instance, if they had particularly strong feelings against a public option? Would they say that it was "not at all important", or would they say that it was "extremely important"? Conversely, how would someone respond if they had a weak preference for a public option, but didn't consider it an especially important component of health care reform? The 1,008 random adults that NBC/WSJ surveyed are going to interpret these dilemmas in a variety of different ways. In addition, the particular category of "quite important" is somewhat ambiguous and probably falls somewhere in between a favorable response and a neutral one.
Non-partisanship rating: 
Question wording: 
Sample size, sample selection and disclosure: 
Overall informativeness: 
6. Lake Research / HCAN
Who They Are / What's Their Angle: Lake Research Partners is a Democratic polling firm. Their poll was conducted on behalf of Health Care for America Now! (HCAN), an advocacy group that wants comprehensive health care reform and strongly favors the public option.
Specifications: Sample of 800 likely voters from January 8-13th, 2009.
Question Wording and Results:
"Which of the following three approaches to health care reform do you prefer: one, everyone getting health insurance through private health insurance plans; two, everyone getting health insurance through a public health insurance plan; or three, everyone having a choice of private health insurance or a public health insurance plan?"
73% choice of public or private
15% private only
9% public only
Discussion: Celinda Lake is an excellent pollster, but she is a Democratic pollster and this is a Democratic poll. I don't hate the question wording, but it really emphasizes the option part of the public option and somewhat de-emphasizes the public part; in this sense, it is sort of the alter ego to the Rasmussen poll. As in some of these other polls, it also may not be immediately obvious to the respondent that "public" means administered by the government. A couple of additional points of critique: the use of a likely voter model (as opposed to all adults or registered voters) is a bit unusual this far out of an election cycle, particularly when it regards how the public feels about a particular policy rather than how they want their elected officials to vote on it. And the poll is now a bit outdated, having been conducted in January.
Non-partisanship rating: 
Question wording: 
Sample size, sample selection and disclosure: 
Overall informativeness: 
Summary: The only poll I have a particularly high degree of confidence in is the Kaiser Family Foundation poll, which finds that between 65 and 68 percent of the public support a public option depending on how the question is phrased. The only thing I would change about their poll is to specify, as NBC/WSJ does, that the public plan would be administered by the government.
The other polls have one or more characteristics that give me pause about them. The question wording in the Consumers Union' poll is push-y and explicitly partisan; the question wording in the Rasmussen and Lake/HCAN polls is strange and probably implicitly partisan. The NBC/WSJ poll is otherwise terrific, but very difficult to interpret because they ask people about the importance of a public option, and not necessarily their support for one. I might be more comfortable with the ERBI poll if I learned more about it, but the comparative lack of disclosure coupled with the unusual choice to exclude adults 18-20 from the sample and a result that appears to be a mild outlier gives me some concerns about it.
Overall, polling points toward the public option being at least mildly popular and indeed perhaps quite popular. But more polling is required on this question, particularly by the news organizations and other unaffiliated groups like Pew and Gallup, and more care should be taken to frame both questions and answers in a neutral and informative way.
6.20.2009
Public Support for the Public Option
by Nate Silver @ 3:52 PM...see also health care, methodology, question wording, rasmussen
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58 comments
The first and most glaring thing this graph points out is the complete unreliability of Rasmussen's polling. Why does anyone still take them seriously?
Nate...
I also think you are being hypercritical in your assessment of the wording in Consumer's Union's polling. How exactly is it supposed to sway opinion, and if that were the case, doesn't it seem likely that CU would have found more support than, say, Kaiser, whose question-wording you approve of?
I think a straightforward, completely neutral outline of the benefits of a public plan are bound to sound "rosy" or "overoptimistic", if that's what you set out to look for. But could it just be that the system we have now (i.e. "let the market do it") is so full of waste, headaches and bullshit that any alternative is going to sound too impossibly good to be true?
The Senate is a dangerous place for reform. A local RI blog, www.rifuture.org, has a piece up on how Senator Reed is actually backing one of the "bi-partisan compromises" instead of a strong public option.
http://www.rifuture.org/diary/6714/how-to-keep-reed-from-blocking-a-strong-public-option
It's outrageous how a strong public option has such high public support, yet we see a senator from one of the most liberal (economically) states in the country bowing to the health insurance giants. On that note, thanks Nate, for the chart showing political contributions. ;) http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/on-health-care-whos-hooked-on-special.html
Nate, this is a very informative summary. In the end, I'm less certain you can evaluate the surveys based on the survey organization as opposed to the framing of the questions. Though perhaps the different sampling frames and methods of data collection matter.
You wee right to call out Rasmussen's phrasing/framing.
I think most people like the "compete with" angle because few are happy with the for-profit insurance companies.
One the funniest Republican comments is that a "Washington Bureaucrat" will make decisions on your health care. They seem not to realize that insurance company bureaucrats are making the decisions now, and it is very clear that your health is not a big factor in those decisions, their costs and profits are. So, most voters likely realize they have a better chance with that proverbial Washington bureaucrat. tha
Rasmussen! Rasmussen? No, really, I thought you were citing pollsters, not ouija board readers.
Rasmussen is a great pollster, he just unjustly influences his sample and questions and question order to make sure he gets a good republican swing.
We need a public option, and we need to do it now in one fast and swift action where all of the money you and i pay, and all the money our employers pay goes into the pool NOW. That is the only way to do this affordably.
Rasmussen is a great pollster, he just unjustly influences his sample and questions and question order to make sure he gets a good republican swing.
Then how is he a great pollster?
Your sentence is a contradiction.
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I am shocked more businesses are not asking for a single payer system. A huge burden on businesses is the costs and overhead associated with covering their employees.
The savings in terms of both time and money to business is substantial.
The lies about it spread by the reich wing should not scare Obama into inaction. Then again, Obama has showed himself to be a coward.
Actually my sentence is not a contradiction and Nate has written broadly about this. A skewing in one direction that is consistent shows a great pollster using a method that creates bias.
Rasmussen has been dead right on the nubers in the last two elections on the final day, it is just that until a week before his polls showed a repub bias. He is a very good pollster, he is also a biased jerk.
I have taken a Ras phone poll and the questions and ordering are truly a beautiful study in how to move a few percent one way.
beavis...
Yep, corporate America is playing deer-in-the-headlights here. For a long time they opposed single-payer for reasons based in cronyism, viewing it as an encroachment of the government on the rights of any business (i.e. health insurers) to do pretty much what they damn well please. But now that it has become a matter of survival for a lot of companies they realize their interests lie with single-payer, yet they just can't quite pull themselves away from the corporate-think teat.
I think that Obama sees how this will play out. As long as there is a government option available, in the long run insurance companies don't stand a chance. They will eventually be crowded out by the forces of--oh, horrors!--the marketplace. As an example, Medicare recipients can either get an insurance-company based HMO or straight Medicare, and last I heard 80% opt for the straight plan. Why? The insurance companies serving as Medicare intermediaries only serve to gum up the works, charging more for co-pays and requiring blizzards of paperwork (authorizations, approvals, pre-approvals etc.) and severely limiting the choice of doctors and hospitals.
It naturally follows that what has happened with Medicare will happen all across the board once the monopoly stranglehold of the insurance companies is broken.
Me, not you...
I have to admit you have me stumped with your praise of Rasmussen as a great pollster. To me a great pollster is one who produces polls that accurately reflect public opinion.
An analogy would be calling someone who can disguise poison in food with exceptional skill a great chef.
Pragmatus;
What Me, not you is saying is essentially the difference between accuracy and precision. What he's saying is that Rasmussen is precise.
And if you know how far off (how biased) the poll is, you can adjust the poll to get an accurate result.
Shane...
What good is precision if accuracy is ignored? That's like taking your car in to get it fixed, but rather than fixing it the mechanic buffed all the broken parts to a magnificent shine. Takes skill to do that, but the required job wasn't done.
You can call whatever Rasmussen does by any name you want, and even heap praise on it, but it's not good polling. If he gets some issues 100% right while failing miserably on all the rest his output as a pollster is shit.
I get a real kick out of the GOOPers who keep saying that all federal employees have 'a government run health care plan'.
It proves to me that they don't know what they are talking about.
For the GOOPers information, the health plan that is available for any federal government employees, be they the President, a worker in any of the Executive Branch agencies, a worker in any of the independent agencies, on Capital Hill, or in the Judiciary branch, is titled the Federal Employees Health Plan.
It works this way:
The government, through OPM, sends out specifications to all who want to participate as a provider (the insurance companies). The companies respond with what they will charge the employees, based on single or family coverage. The insurance companies must meet the minimum specifications determined by OPM, but are not restricted in adding services.
After all the proposals are received, OPM determines if each insurance company's proposal meets the minimum specs, and if it does, can (if it so decides) discuss the proposed pricing with the company.
Then OPM goes back to the previous year, and determines which three plans had the highest enrollment figures from federal employees. Let's call them insurance companies A, B and C.
Let's say that 20% of federal employees chose company A.
Let's say that 18% of federal employees chose company B.
Let's say that 12% of federal employees chose company C.
OPM takes the yearly amount of the premiums charged of those companies, averages them, then uses that average to determine how much the federal government will pay of all 100% of the federal employees premiums. The per cent the government pays is set in federal law, so OPM can't say 'This year, we'll pay 100% of the high three's average premium, but next year, we'll pay 25%.' The law also states that there is an absolute floor on what an employee pays. This means that ALL employees pay at least some portion of their benefits package, and no one gets 'a free ride'.
Because all insurance companies can participate in the plan, but because many have limited geographic coverage areas, the number of plans available from one city/state/region that a federal employee can select from can vary. The larger metropolitan areas, and those with large federal employee populations, such as New York; Washington, DC; Boston; Chicago; Atlanta; San Francisco; Los Angeles; Dallas/Fort Worth; etc. might have 10, 20 or even more plans from which to choose. Those federal employees from smaller (population) areas might have fewer plans from which to choose - for instance those in Butte, Montana or Casper, Wyoming most likely could expect a half dozen plans from which to choose at most, and in some geographic areas, only one or two.
All federal employees have the opportunity to participate, or to NOT participate. If someone has a non-federally employed spouse with a similar plan, but it's cheaper (or offers more benefits at the same price), they may choose to participate under their spouse's plan. Some employees may think "I'll never get sick or injured, and besides, I need the money for beer" and decide they can forego the FEHP.
So, yes, the FEHP is the 'federal government's health plan', but it is actually a company plan, with private insurance companies actually offering the insurance.
And the federal employee pays a portion of the premium for that insurance, just as is the case for almost every private company with a health plan for their employees.
So before anyone makes a comment on Sonia Sotomayor or any other federal government employee having a 'gold-plated' health plan, do some research on the FEHP before spouting off and making a fool of yourself.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Rasmussen has been dead right on the nubers in the last two elections on the final day, it is just that until a week before his polls showed a repub bias.
So he is good 1 week out of 4 years(208 weeks)?
Not a good average.
By any rational metric, he is the opposite of a good pollster.
Pragmatus,
The example of the mechanic who buffs and shines the defective part might be apt.
Why do they do that?
It's cheaper to do that than to replace the part. It might cost $10 to buff and shine the part, but a new one costs $100, then dealer costs (let's say $25.00) and profit (let's say #25.00) added on, the mechanic can charge $150.00. Would the mechanic rather make $25.00 in profit, or make $140.00 in profit?
If the mechanic is not worried about continuing customer loyalty, but just the quick profit, they'll go for the most profit. And especially if the part is causing intermittent problems that might be hard to diagnose, and even more especially if the customer is not a resident of the area (a tourist, for example).
If the mechanic can fit in enough of the 'buff and shine' fixes without getting caught, the mechanic can make a lot more money by cheating than by doing the job right.
Of course, that means finding the dividing line between doing enough correctly to gain a reputation of being a good mechanic, and being able to fool enough to boost the profit margin by doing the shoddy work.
An example - a muffler shop might find that the muffler is in good working condition, but there are perforations in the exhaust pipe leading to the muffler. Using a soup can and radiator clamps to close the perforations makes the car sound a lot better, but the mechanic can charge the customer for a new muffler. The 'soupcan fix' might last for several hundred miles. If it's a tourist's vehicle, they might be several states away when the 'soupcan fix' stops working. (BTW - the way most cars are manufactured today, if there is any problem with the exhaust system post-catalytic converter, it is almost cheaper to replace the entire system beyond the catalytic converter. It's almost always cheaper to weld parts together than to clamp them together.)
Cost for the 'fix' might be $5.00, but the bill to the customer might be $250.00. Profit of $245.00.
How can the mechanic get away with this? How many people would look under the car to see that a new muffler wasn't installed?
And thus a case of precisely 'fixing the problem' but not doing it in an accurate manner that will be at least semi-permanent. And if the customer just happens to return, the mechanic can give a BS answer about the 'new' muffler being defective, and giving the customer 'a break' on the replacement of that defective muffler, maybe charging the customer for mechanic's time plus a bit. And of course, the mechanic's time will be inflated, but without the customer knowing it's inflated.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Someone should poll US expats in countries where there is universal health care. Here in Taiwan a local expat has started a Facebook group in the hope of getting the message back home. Here in Taiwan, where I have universal health care with an insignificant fee, access to excellent doctors, and the use of any hospital or doctor in the system, I just laugh at idiots in the US who are dupes of the "It's socialist!" propaganda. One reason many of us expats view returning to the US with trepidation is precisely the ridiculous health care system.
Michael Turton
Pragmatus said...
What good is precision if accuracy is ignored? That's like taking your car in to get it fixed, but rather than fixing it the mechanic buffed all the broken parts to a magnificent shine. Takes skill to do that, but the required job wasn't done.
You can call whatever Rasmussen does by any name you want, and even heap praise on it, but it's not good polling. If he gets some issues 100% right while failing miserably on all the rest his output as a pollster is shit.
My post was three sentences long. Did you read the third?
beavis,
Most people, when rating the accuracy of the pollsters, look ONLY at the pollster's final number prior to the election. They don't look at the numbers given a month prior, when one pollster might show 'Candidate A' ahead, but all the other polls show 'Candidate B' ahead, and by a margin that is fairly close to the eventual final margin. If that pollster then shows Candidate B 'closing the gap', and in the final poll shows Candidate B winning, AND that pollster is the closest in 'predicting that final margin, the pollster can claim "I was closest in predicting the winning margin", thus influencing the public that they are more accurate.
However, when that pollster was showing Candidate A ahead, their polling might actually HAVE shown Candidate B ahead, but the pollster wanted Candidate A to win, so they tinkered with the internals, giving a bit more preference to one polled group over another, to hide the tinkering being done. Then as the election approaches, the tinkering continues to bring the reported poll numbers more in alignment with what the actual poll numbers are showing.
Precise in reporting the polls (but without explaining the how and why of the tinkering), but at the same time, not accurate in reporting the actual polls until near the very end of the election cycle.
This is how I perceive that Rasmussen operates, whether intentionally or not. Although I suspect that it is intentional. He's slick enough to hide it very well, and it might be damn difficult, if not next to impossible, to prove it, though.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Correction:
In my post at 7:23 pm, I wrote "it is almost cheaper to replace. . . ."
I left one word out - 'always'. That fragment of the sentence should read "it is almost always cheaper to replace. . . ."
Sorry about dropping that word.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
@ Mike in Maryland
Mike.are you saying that Obama and family (as well as members of Congress,Supreme Court Justices,etc.) pay a private company for their health insurance and are not treated free at Walter Reed Hospital? If so I believe you are wrong
----------------------------------------------------
I'd like to get my hands around Max Baucus' throat.
If Congress passes a heath care bill without an unalloyed public option,I hope Qbama promply vetoes it.
Opus 132 said...
@ Mike in Maryland
Mike.are you saying that Obama and family (as well as members of Congress,Supreme Court Justices,etc.) pay a private company for their health insurance and are not treated free at Walter Reed Hospital? If so I believe you are wrong
Opus,
The treatments are paid for by the insurance companies. Payment for the insurance is a deduction from gross pay on the bi-weekly pay check, or monthly pension check (if the retiree has continued their FEHP coverage into retirement).
Yes, the White House has medical staff on site; the SCOTUS has medical staff on site; and there are medical staff on site on Capital Hill.
However, any medical treatment received is paid for by the insurance companies IF the patient is covered by the FEHP, whether the treatment is on site or at some off-site medical facility.
Unlike a private citizen, though, the insurance companies are not near as apt to dispute a bill if it involves medical treatment for the President, a member of Congress, or a justice on the SCOTUS, or other high-ranking or high profile person (think Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's broken elbow, or SCOTUS nominee Sonia Sotomayor) - the bad publicity of challenging coverage would be damn near impossible to be overcome by even the best PR campaign.
The only exceptions would be any care received by any of the above paid for through the VA, which is NOT part of the FEHB. Most veterans are eligible for at least some VA coverage.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
I disagree with why corporate America has been opposed to single payer. The fear has always been that the Feds will pay for it by raising corp taxes (which is likely true). The theory of most large companies is that they have more control over the price of insurance and can choose how much to make the employees pay. If it goes to a single payer scheme, then price disparity goes away and so the big companies have no advantage - this means they will likely pay more in taxes to cover this system.
Small businesses have also been against it since they often do not provide any insurance, so their costs (in taxes) can only go up.
The real question is why so many voters have been fooled, especially those with no insurance or who are paying a fortune.
PaulK said...
I disagree with why corporate America has been opposed to single payer. The fear has always been that the Feds will pay for it by raising corp taxes (which is likely true).
And your basis for those ASSUMPTIONs are ??????
Or are you just parroting the propaganda from the Business Roundtable, Chamber of Commerce, Lush Rimbaugh, Manthrax Coulter, the propagandists at Faux News, etc.?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Shane…
Yes I read your last sentence, and why should I need to interpret poll results on my end, i.e. figure out how the pollster cooked his numbers so I can “uncook” them and get a sensible result? Why would I want to waste my time doing that?
My point is excruciatingly simple. Polls that accurately reflect public opinion are good polls. Ones that do not accurately reflect public opinion are bad polls. That you are continuing to argue for some other metric is beyond my comprehension.
Nate says the poll should inform respondents about the option being "government run". That may be true, but does anyone call Aetna or Blue Cross Blue Shield "corporate run"?
PaulK…
Corporations are well aware of what is involved in converting to single-payer—exchanging paying private insurer premiums on policies that come with ever more Byzantine rules and provide less and less coverage, for paying taxes into a fund that provides insurance. The GAO has estimated that the amount of money paid annually for private insurance premiums, if applied to a single-payer program would provide complete coverage for everyone and leave money left over.
The logic and economics are there, it’s the inertia that’s currently insurmountable.
Opus 132…
Please leave room on Max Baucus’s throat for me…
If the people responding to the survey were aware of the fact that the so called "public option" will result in higher taxes, higher deficits and lower quality of health care, no one in their right mind would be in favor of it.
The CBO estimates the Democrats plan will add up to $1.6 trillion or more to the deficit over the next 10 years and only cover 13 to 14 million of the 50 million without insurance. The plan would subsidize these people to the tune of $6000 per person by 2019. Where is this money going to come from? Answer, You and me with the Democrats openly proposing big cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, higher taxes and sky rocketing deficits that will lead to inflation that will hurt people the elderly on fixed incomes the most. The U.S. debt currently with Medicaid and Medicare is $57 trillion, $11 trillion in Social Security, $11+ trillion in the current budget. That is about $80 trillion in the hole and growing by the day. Moreover, state like Ca and NY are going bankrupt due to the enormous costs associated with Medicaid, which sounds a lot like the "public option" the Democrats are proposing.
A government takeover of the health care will inevitably lead to higher (costs deficits and taxes) and lower quality of care. Than to solve the "problem" (that government created in the first place), politicians will impose even higher taxes and rationing of health care. The goal of the Democrats health care take over is to suck as much money out of our pockets as possible so the government has control of our money and how it is spent. The ugly truth is that the poor and elderly on Medicaid and Medicare will be forced to bear the brunt of this with our Medicare premiums going up and services being cut in order to help pay for the health care costs of the uninsured. Think about it. The money has to come from somewhere.
Given the government's mismanagement of Social Security and Medicare (that are going bankrupt) how is it that anyone can trust the government not to make an even bigger mess of health care is beyond me. I guess if you like sky rocketing deficits, higher taxes, run away inflation and some bureaucrat making life and death decisions on who gets what health care if any, a government take over of health care as proposed by the Democrats is for you.
"And your basis for those ASSUMPTIONs are ??????" - the fact that Obama has said so during the election.
Note that I am in favor of single payer. The argument of the right against the option model is three-fold:
1. It will encourage some companies to dump their current insurance plan and push employees to take the option.
2. Insurance companies will not be able to compete with the better pricing of the option due to a much larger pool.
3. More and more people will go with the option, thereby destroying the insurance companies.
I have no idea if there is truth to 1, but I know most companies consider the benefits to be a way to retain employees, so this seems unlikely. The other two are simply noting that health insurance companies in the US are a disaster. Many are poorly managed, are so focused on profit that they forget that people's lives hang in the balance, and they have terrible customer service. Many deserve to go away. Well run insurance companies will likely survive since they offer people a decent balance of cost to service. If you only look at what choices employees take when given lots of choices, this shows that options make a big difference, as people learn what works for them.
barry4715 posted as follows:
A government takeover of the health care will inevitably lead to higher (costs deficits and taxes) and lower quality of care.
Every developed country that has guaranteed national or provincial insurance has lower infant and maternal mortality and higher life expectancy than the U.S. You are lying.
A couple of thoughts:
For one thing this poll will change once President Obama put his full court press Media Blitz on it. He's been talking here and there about Health Care but hasn't really put his seal on any plan. Right now you have Congress coming up with a half a million different plans so its hard for the public to rally behind one. Then there's always the Republican Plan which has few numbers and no real change!
Second, if Government Run Health Care is so bad then why isn't Medicare/Medicaid really disliked. Instead it's extremely popular. Ask any well off retired Republican if they would give up the Medicare and even pay higher premiums on it and you will hear a uproaor like you wouldn't believe. The ironic thing is that once/if we get a single payer/universal government run health care program up and running then you woun't be able to pry it, along with Social Security, out of the Republicans cold dead grasping heartless hands.
barry4715 said...
A government takeover of the health care will inevitably lead to higher (costs deficits and taxes) and lower quality of care.
When Medicare was first being discussed in the early 1960s, the AMA hired Ronnie Ray-Gun to narrate a commercial that stated (paraphrasing), "This is the nose of the camel under the tent - ANY government-run health system will ultimately and directly lead to SOCIALISM."
How many people, especially the elderly, would think that Medicare has led us to Socialism?
If you think the US is currently a socialist country, you have absolutely NO idea what socialism is.
Also, an argument is made that in Canada, Great Britain, and other countries, there is rationing of health care, and an example is given of transplants.
Ever try to ascertain why there is a waiting list for transplants?
It's not because the medical system wants there to be waiting lists - it's because there is a shortage of people who donate organs and tissue when they die in those countries.
BTW - If the Canadian system were so BAD!!!!!!!, wouldn't there be a stream of people from Canada flowing into the US for medical treatments? From the reports I've seen, the stream is in the opposite direction - US citizens going to Canada to purchase drugs at a cheaper price instead of purchasing those same drugs in the US at inflated prices.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
@Mike in Maryland -
A respectful suggestion (and I'm sincere about the "respectful", because I agree with you on the issues): read people's posts a little more carefully before you attack them. PaulK's last sentence makes it clear that he disagrees with the corporate position; he is just offering a different perspective on what that position is. If the Business Roundtable, Chamber of Commerce, etc. are saying the same thing, then maybe he has some basis for his claim.
Save your ire and your fire for mindless ideologues like Barry4715, who really do just spew talking points with no basis in reality.
(I'm a different Paul, BTW.)
Nate,
Is there any indication who paid for the Rasmussen poll? Rasmussen didn't do the poll on their own dime did they?
If it was for the Chamber of Commerce, and/or Heritage Foundation, and/or Cato Institute, and/or the RNC, etc., you would expect the poll question to read one way, with the intent to drive down the favorables.
If it was sponsored by Daily Kos or MoveOn or the DNC, for instance, you would expect the poll question to read a much different way, with the intent to drive up the favorables.
It would appear to me that with the inclusion of the words 'government' in conjunction with 'to compete with private . . . companies', the sponsor was most likely the former, not the latter, example of sponsor.
If so, why wouldn't the Rasmussen poll be considered a type of push-polling?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
I see new posts showed up while I was writing mine. I was referring to PaulK's first post.
Nate
Perhaps they exclude under 21s because insurance companies generally cover up to 21 (afaik) and anyone under that would have little or no experience in buying health insurance.
@Mike in MD:
I have heard conservatards claim (without proof) that Canadians regularly come here for treatments because the wait is too long in Canada.
The thing is, unless you are rich and have an on-site on-demand doctor/surgeon, there is no way you are not going to have to wait some time for any procedure.
barry4715...
Nobody is talking about a "government takeover of healthcare". This is an insurance industry "talking point" whose sole purpose is deflecting attention from how they are screwing the populace. What Obama wants to do is provide an alternative to for-profit health insurance which has time and again demonstrated a complete lack of interest in whether or not people in this country have good health care.
For all those screaming for a "market based solution" for the current health insurance mess the answer is what we have now is a market based solution. If covering everybody and seeing that they had excellent health care were in the insurance industry's interest there would be no debate.
Nobody in the insurance industry gives a rat's ass about the people, the country or even the planet. Their only concern is and always will be their bottom line.
barry4715m
How much profit should a not-for-profit entity make?
How much salary should the head of a not-for-profit entity make?
In 2006, the “nonprofit” NC Blue Cross Blue Shield, NC’s largest health insurer, announced that it made nearly $190 million in “profit”.
In that same announcement, NC Blue Cross Blue Shield also stated that Blue Cross CEO Bob Greczyn received $3.1 million in compensation during 2006.
(http://www.carrborocitizen.com/main/2007/03/29/flux-up-yonder , Mar 29, 2007)
Why is a 'not-for-profit' entity making profit, let alone $100 million in profit?
Why is a 'not-for-profit' entity paying someone MILLIONS of dollars in compensation?
And those figures are just pittances compared to 'for profit' insurance companies.
Do you REALLY think that insurance companies first, second and third orders of business is looking out for the policy-holding patient's interests?
If you do, I've got ocean-front property in Kansas you'll be eager to buy. You are so gullible you'd think it a bargain, no matter the price.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Haha. Is Rasmussen trying to destroy its credibility? They are becoming the Fox News of polling.
I'm going to be absolutely furious with the Democratic party if they can't get a public option done. I mean just... I may just be done with them. It's just unacceptable.
The debate should be public option vs single payer.
Michael said...
barry4715 posted as follows:
A government takeover of the health care will inevitably lead to higher (costs deficits and taxes) and lower quality of care.
Every developed country that has guaranteed national or provincial insurance has lower infant and maternal mortality and higher life expectancy than the U.S. You are lying.
I would also like to point out that, in fact, every developed country that has guaranteed [...] also spends much *much* less of its GDP on healthcare. This, to me, does not seem to indicate "oh my god, taxes will go up (and personal purchasing power will go down)!" Taxes may go up, but how much are you (and your employer) spending on healthcare, anyway? As for those who don't bother with coverage, as is their privilege, how much is lack of coverage/shitty coverage costing society right now, in lost productivity and potential?
(Although a large part of the high cost of US healthcare is due to high prevalence of "lifestyle diseases", aka Americans eat too many burgers, are too sedentary, and don't engage in preventative measures (such as seeing doctors regularly... because it would cost too much...), I think it's less of a factor than insurance companies finding it profitable to deny coverage.)
I wonder if there's a way to know if the shortage of organs for transplants in more civilized countries is because 1) ppl are healthier and so spare organs are harder to come by (well, do most organs come from accident victims or ppl who die of diseases? If you died of some disease maybe your organs aren't in such good shape...) or 2) everyone who needs a transplant can afford to try to obtain one, whereas in the USA if you can't afford it you wouldn't on the waiting list anyway?
EBRI is completely biased and corporate. From the right, equivallent of HCAN and CU. The Blues are all for-profit private insurance companies mostlyowned by conglomerate United, Aetna, etc. Same for AARP which has become completely corporate, sells for-proffit private insrance in deals with United, Aetna etc, and is also captured by it Washington lobbyists.
p.s.: earlier independent media polling (WaPo, Yahoo, Ap, etc.) had single payer at 59-67% depending on the wording.
EBRI is completely biased and corporate. From the right, equivallent of HCAN and CU. The Blues are all for-profit private insurance companies mostlyowned by conglomerate United, Aetna, etc. Same for AARP which has become completely corporate, sells for-proffit private insrance in deals with United, Aetna etc, and is also captured by it Washington lobbyists.
p.s.: earlier independent media polling (WaPo, Yahoo, Ap, etc.) had single payer at 59-67% depending on the wording.
. kali said...
I wonder if there's a way to know if the shortage of organs for transplants in more civilized countries is because. . . .
Most of the shortage is because people are not encouraged to donate. Although most think their religion prohibits it (and therefore don't even ask their religious advisor), there actually are extremely few religions that prohibit organ and/or tissue donation.
As to whether most donations are the result of accidents, in the US that is yes, although mostly from circumstance, not because accidents are the only way to get organs and/or tissue.
If a person dies of heart disease, then naturally the heart is most likely not usable for transplant, but almost certainly the corneas are transplantable, along with skin, and probably the liver, pancreas, kidneys, and many other internal organs.
If the cause of death is cancer, then each organ and/or tissue sample must be cleared for transplant, not only for signs of cancer in the organ, but also whether chemo therapy and/or radiation treatment has caused the organ and/or tissue to be untransplantable. For corneas, it is not usual for cancer to affect the integrity of the tissue for transplantation, nor for chemo and/or radiation treatments. Other organs can be affected by greater or lesser extents, but most are capable of being used.
Skin is used in burn units at hospitals - human skin has been found to be one of the best coverings for burn areas in terms of keeping infections under control. And since there is so much skin on the human body (most compute it at about 1 to 2+ meters squared), even if 1/2 of the tissue is unusable, that still leaves about 6+ square feet still usable.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Thanks for addressing my questions, Mike! Um, considering the apparent breadth of your knowledge, may I ask if you are somehow involved in the healthcare industry, or if it is just of particular interest to you?
. kali,
I'm not medically trained, but I am on the board of a US-based 501(c)(3) non-profit that was organized to assist people with eye diseases that lead to corneal transplants. I also assist in an international support group for people with a specific eye disease that leads to corneal transplants.
Because of the need for corneal donations for the transplants and the various issues surrounding such tissue donations, it naturally has led to at least some knowledge of any and all other organ and tissue transplant issues, how they are addressed in the US and the rest of the world, and some of the theological and philosophical issues surrounding organ and tissue donation.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
"Would it be a good idea to set up a government health insurance company to compete with private health insurance companies?"
A government health insurance "company"? That doesn't even strike me as a factually based representation of anything that's been proposed. Medicare, for example, is a government program, but not a "company". "Company" implies a for-profit venture. To me, this question wording should pretty much be enough to pretty much render their results irrelevant.
Pragmatus said...
Shane…
Yes I read your last sentence, and why should I need to interpret poll results on my end, i.e. figure out how the pollster cooked his numbers so I can “uncook” them and get a sensible result? Why would I want to waste my time doing that?
My point is excruciatingly simple. Polls that accurately reflect public opinion are good polls. Ones that do not accurately reflect public opinion are bad polls. That you are continuing to argue for some other metric is beyond my comprehension.
Your comprehension seems to be lacking. I was not arguing for anything, so it's pretty hard for me to be 'continuing to argue' for anything. I was just trying to explain 'you, not me''s point that didn't seem to be connecting.
You're looking for a fight where it doesn't exist.
Found another poll, its NYT/CBS and I think even Nate would approve of the wording. I know NYT leans left and I'm not sure about CBS.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/health/policy/21poll.html?_r=2&partner=rss&emc=rss
a few thoughts
If Rasmussen is consistently more conservative in its results for all but the 2 days prior to an election, it is obvious they are adjusting their results the last two days to be in line - that does not give them a pass for their blatantly skewed results the rest of the year, and please: Nate, that wording is IMPLICIT bias?
I am guessing that you are desperately trying to curry favor with the mainstream, which recoils from any suggestion of "liberal" skew, and one way you can do it is to give a pass to the well-known conservative evangelical republican, Scotty Rasmussen.
Second, yes, the US reports the lowest levels of satisfaction with health care of any major democracy, and it costs twice as much as any other as it leaves 75 million under or uninsured. Might be a good idea to ask the folks in the countries involved their take on their systems, rather than searching for some notoriously fringe right wing think tanks from there to slag them. (I am from Canada, and we are always amazed at the lies promulgated about Canada by the Fraser institute, faithfully reported here in the "mainstream" news as how Canadians feel. Hell, you could not PAY Canadians to take the US healthcare system.)
Nate, you should describe how the language of the polls is partisan; as is, it's just your gut assertion. In particular the CU question seems *detailed*, not partisan; the biggest possible bias I see is "more affordable" (even though that's likely true.) Otherwise they seem to be describing more precisely how it would work, vs. the vagueness of "a public option". That you give them 1 star, and others 3 or more stars, erodes my confidence in your judgment.
A couple of thoughts have been bugging me about this topic for a while.
It is true that Canadians come to the US for some procedures, mainly because they claim the wait is too long for important but not always life saving procedures (like Cochlear ear implants). It is just as true that many Americans go to places like India, Mexico and other parts of the world for both elective and critical procedures, mainly owing to cost (and in the case of transplants, avoiding ethical standards that might get in the way of buying a kidney or liver).
This argument that government involvement leads to "rationing" of care bothers me deeply. Almost all healthcare is rationed already, mainly based on ability to pay/insurance status. Healthcare providers are constantly making decisions on who gets treated first, based on scarce resources. Also, right now the "first come first served" allocation of many scarce resources makes it nearly impossible for people to get services in a timely manner, especially if they live in rural areas (not least of which is access to psychiatric care). I personally wouldn't mind a system with a more rational distribution - which is, after all the basic idea of rationing.
Finally, the CBC ran a program in 2004 called the Greatest Canadian. This was like American Idol for all Canadians for all time. The winner? Tommy Douglas, the Socialist Premier of Saskatchewan who introduced socialized medicine to the country. He really isn't known for much else on policy, although he was also Kiefer "torture works" Sutherland's grandpa. So that healthcare system must really suck - seeing as how Canada hasn't given it up in nearly 50 years and revere the founder of it as a hero.
Sometimes when I read a Rasmussen poll, specifically the wording of the questions and then the summary of the poll results, I get the impression that he might phrase a question similar to "Do you think the Autobahns Hitler created in Germany are good or bad for Germany's economic present and future?" and from the results (presuming a majority would respond with a 'yes'), state in the poll summary that "Most Germans proclaim that Hitler was good for Germany", which I'm sure is totally opposite of what the vast majority of today's Germans would say.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
When an election is close, Rasmussen polls are excellent. Very good predictor of results. But when its election off-season (like now) his GOP partisanship takes over and his polls always skew to the right of most other polls. He doesn't go as far as "push-polling", but he does go in that direction. His approval rating polls for Republicans/Democrats are typically several points higher/lower than other polls. He almost always had Bush higher than other polls and has Obama lower than other polls.
So, rmm169, are you saying that when the election is close, Rasmussen is best, but when the election is not close, he's (for some unstated reason) not quite the best? Wouldn't that mean in a non-close election, other pollsters would probably predict better than Rasmussen as to the final outcome?
I wouldn't call the 2008 Presidential election very close, but there are many Rasmussen backers crowing that he was closest in his final poll to the actual results. Doesn't that kind of spoil your "he's best when the election is close, but not quite the best when the election is not" philosophy?
Or are you saying that during a Presidential election AND when the Presidential election is close, that Rasmussen is best, but not so good at other times?
Again, 2008 was, by most measures, not even a close election.
Why are you praising Rasmussen, then dissing him?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
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Newer polls show big support for the public plan as well. Check these out!
http://thefactofmyignorance.com/politics/new-polls-on-the-public-option/
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