Quantcast FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Obama's (Unintentionally?) Brilliant Strategy on Cap-and-Trade

6.24.2009

Obama's (Unintentionally?) Brilliant Strategy on Cap-and-Trade

We've been focusing so much on health care (and Iran) that we haven't written very much about climate change. And yet, after making concessions to farm state Democrats, the House is prepared to vote on the Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill on Friday. Ezra Klein wonders where exactly the President is in all of this. Climate change, obviously, was a key piece of Obama's agenda. But why is the House about to vote on this bill now, when Obama is more focused on health care?

First of all, we don't necessarily know that this is Obama's doing. It's the House's job to -- well, to vote on stuff. It's the Senate, where bills are much easier to block through a variety of tactics ranging from filibusters to holds to plain old stalling, that is more inclined to play traffic cop and where the President probably has more influence on the timing process.

But if this is a deliberate strategy on the White House's behalf, I think it's a pretty smart one. The reasoning is as follows:

1. No climate bill will pass the Senate which has not passed the House. In contrast to health care, where using the reconciliation process remains a possibility (meaning that a vote could not be filibustered and only 50 votes would be required for passage), the Senate has already banned use of the reconciliation process on climate. There's pretty much no way that a climate bill could get 60 votes in the Senate but fail to garner a majority in the House.

2. The House vote will provide a benchmark. The prospects for passage of a climate in the Senate can probably be reasonably be inferred by exactly what happens in the House. Specifically, Democrats will get to see how many Blue Dogs vote for the bill and how many Republicans do. If the bill gets the support of, say, all but a dozen Blue Dogs as well as handful of moderate Republicans, you can envision a route toward passage in the Senate. If it passes by a bare majority in the House, on the other hand, it is unlikely to overcome a Senate filibuster. And if it the bill entirely fails to pass, it's back to the drawing board and the Democrats will know they'll have to make more compromises.

3. Support for a cap-and-trade bill is probably relatively dependent on cyclical factors. By cyclical factors I mean three things: gas prices, the overall state of the economy, and Presidential approval. Polling generally indicates that support for curbing carbon emissions rises along with gas prices, as well as the overall health of the economy. And as Ezra suggests, because public opinion on climate change is relatively poorly formed, it may also depend heavily on the amount of political capital that the President is willing and able to expend.

Right now, Presidential approval is fairly high, and gas prices are also fairly high, having increased significantly since bottoming out in January:



(If this chart looks a little funky, it's because I'm using yearly data from 1976-1990, and then weekly data from 1991 onward).

On the other hand, the economy remains in really bad shape. If we had to rate these three factors on a scale of 0 to 10, where 10 represents the most favorable conditions for a climate bill and 0 the least favorable, we'd probably rate Presidential approval at about a 7, gas prices at about a 6.5, and the economy at about a 1.5. That averages out to a 5, meaning that this is a fairly average time to be pushing a climate bill. In February, by contrast, we might have rated Presidential approval at an 8, the economy at a 1, and gas prices at a 4, which averages to a 4.3. That probably would have been a slightly worse time, on balance, to push a climate bill forward.

4. Democrats get to pick their moment in the Senate. Just because a climate bill is approved by the House does not mean that the Democrats have to push it through the Senate immediately. The Democrats could wait on floor action until essentially any point until November 2010. This is one of the advantages of controlling the chamber.

I hope you see where I'm going this: the four factors above are very powerful when taken in combination. Say that Waxman-Markey passes the House, but only barely. That means the Democrats can wait for a better moment in the Senate -- gamble on the prospect that the economy is going to improve, which would probably improve Obama's approval ratings with it. So long as gas remained somewhere in the range of $2.50 or higher, a climate bill would probably have a much better chance of picking up votes from your Evan Bayhs and Susan Collinses and Mel Martinezes than it does now. On the other hand, if the Waxman bill passes the House by a 40-vote margin, the Administration could begin to think more seriously about pushing it forward now, and not risk something like a deterioration in its approval ratings.

In finance terms, there is a lot of option value created for the Democrats by having the House vote on the bill now. The reasons that Obama may not be exerting political capital are twofold. Firstly, it may be many months before Senate action follows. And secondly, seeing what the House does on its own merits may provide for a better benchmark: you don't want to take your temperature after you've just taken aspirin.

67 comments

azogdude said...

If you perceive climate change as an important emergency that needs action, a one year wait is a terrible outcome.

Luckily this is a terrible compromise bill so a years wait wont matter quite as much.

Obama's brilliant strategies have so far resulted in a series of horrible & late compromises.

Pragmatus said...

I think people are getting dizzy over all the ins and outs of the attempts to deal with global warming. I for one pay no attention to what the Congress is doing. Whether this is right or wrong I will leave to others, however I think a lot of people do the same as me.

Hu Chi said...

Maybe not an unintentionally brilliant strategy but if house passage raises the likelihood of ultimate action, so much the better. Cap and trade coupled with a lower overall emissions limit seems reasonable. Here's hoping your logic holds.

sturunner said...

The devil of course is in the details, especially in the out years.

Leonides said...

Considering the damage that "cap and trade" will do to the US economy in the long run let's hope its fails.

Some numbers from the WSJ:

When the Heritage Foundation did its analysis of Waxman-Markey, it broadly compared the economy with and without the carbon tax. Under this more comprehensive scenario, it found Waxman-Markey would cost the economy $161 billion in 2020, which is $1,870 for a family of four. As the bill's restrictions kick in, that number rises to $6,800 for a family of four by 2035.

The CBO numbers are false. This is the real price... It is going to be disastrous.

BeanoCook said...

Warren Buffet trashed "cap-n-trade" as a regressive tax today. He said it would do unnecessary damage to an already struggling economy that has yet to rebound.

Once again, we have people much, much smarter than Nate saying why his position is wrong.

Democrats are being dominated by ideology, they are not interested in facts, science or what works. Ideology dominates.

sad

Doug, the subway fugitive. said...

How, BTW is Al Franken doing? Or, so to say #60...

Doug, the subway fugitive. said...

@BeanoCook, @Leonides

Yes, any energy tax, including cap & trade is regressive. Yet taxing energy is a necessary evil.

What we see in the US car industry today, however, is the real cost of doing nothing.

Energy prices are going to sky rocket sooner or later, and we will be at a competitive disadvantage, because unlike us, european & asian companies will have faced the right incentives. Like $10 gas.

BTW, what does it mean to scale the "cost to the economy" to a "family of four" in 2035. 2035! For all we know, a barrel of oil will be trading at $6800 by then.

Rudy said...

Sleight of hand hardly constitutes a brilliant strategy. Cap and trade is a big tax increase on all Americans, no matter how they try to posture otherwise. And that's why it doesn't even have majority support in the Senate.

uberfrosh said...

@ Leonides

The CBO (nonpartisan) is wrong and the Heritage Foundation (conservative think tank) is right because what exactly?

@ Beanocook

Amazingly Buffet, who has significant energy company stakes and almost bought constellation energy, takes a stand against taxing energy.

I wonder what Bill Gates thinks about net neutrality.


Bottom line is that SOMETHING needs to be done on the energy front, and even if someone finds the right solutions, they won't get the credit. The change needs to come soon, and unfortunately won't be measurable for decades.

Mike in Maryland said...

Leonides,

In 1983, what did the WSJ and the Heritage Foundation compute the economy to be today?

Don't know?

When they did their computations in 1983, what did they say the DOW would be in 2009?

Don't know?

In 2001, after the little shrub tax cuts for the rich went through, what did the WSJ and the Heritage Foundation compute the economy to be today?

Don't know?

When they did their computations in 2001, what did they say the DOW would be in 2009?

Don't know?

What assumptions were made on world demand for carbon-based energy?

What assumptions were made on solar-based energy generation?

What assumptions were made on wind, wave, nuclear and other renewable based and/or non-carbon based energy generation?

What assumptions were made on the price of carbon-based energy per barrel, ton, or other measurement?

Don't know?

You have 'blind faith' in the accuracy of those computations because it's the Wall Street Journal reporting what the Heritage Foundation says it's analysis divined?

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Pragmatus said...

When Congress began thinking of imposing pollution controls standards on US carmakers, the same old arguments were floated--it will destroy the economy, we can't afford it, blah-blah-blah.

Whatver cap-n-trade will or will not do, the idea that it will destroy the economy is ludicrous.

Leonides said...

The specifics on WHY the CBO is wrong is in the WSJ article itself.

Here's the link:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124588837560750781.html

I invite you to read it for the details.

crab66 said...

The Heritage Foundation and The WSJ are not exactly reputable sources outside of la la land.

Brian Jenkins said...

Um, one slight catch with your latest paean to Barry's brilliance: the Senate has already had a de facto vote on Waxman-Markey.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=111&session=1&vote=00126

The title of the vote is "To prohibit the use of reconciliation in the Senate for climate change legislation involving a cap and trade system." Without reconciliation, W-M can be filibustered to death.

The vote passed 67-31, with 26 Democrats joining all Republicans (then including Specter).

Legislative brilliance that never leads to a bill being passed isn't terribly brilliant. In fact, it's pointless.

crab66 said...

I should clarify that I am specifically referring to the opinion section of The WSJ.

Plenty of credible stuff can be found in other parts of The WSJ.

crab66 said...

@Brian Jenkins


You didn't actually read what Nate wrote did you?



Read it again and see me after class.

BeanoCook said...

Enough with the moralizing legislation out of this White House and congress.

I don't need my hand held or to be told using energy is "wrong" and that energy use is now a "moral" issue. Give me a break.

Now these fools in congress want to tell me what kind of medical procedure I can or can't have.

Go to Hell!

Jim said...

@BeanoCook-

Then if we run out of energy and have water wash away the Eastern seaboard because we failed to put a price on carbon, do you mind if I burn your house down for energy?

You said it wasn't a moral issue, so I'm assuming you're cool with it...

BeanoCook said...

Jim,

You are naive.

Rudy said...

The remote possibility that we either run out of energy or that Philadelphia will be the second coming of Atlantis is no reason for panicky Ludditeness.

Jim said...

@BeanoCook:

Not nearly as naive as you are.

I just don't want to have to suffer for your ignorance when oil runs out and the seas rise.

But I guess you can just keep your head up Rush's ass for warmth, just in case.

Mike in Maryland said...

'Mr.' (?) Jenkins said...
the Senate has already had a de facto vote on Waxman-Markey.

And Nate stated:
the Senate has already banned use of the reconciliation process on climate with an embedded link (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/dems-help-ban-reconciliation-vote-on-climate-change-2009-04-01.html).

And why did you avoid seeing crab66 after class? Can't admit to your negligence in reading ability, or can't admit to your stupidity?

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Mike in Maryland said...

crab66 said...
Plenty of credible stuff can be found in other parts of The WSJ.

Crab,

Make that past tense, prior to the Rupert Murdoch takeover and subversion of the WSJ to the dark side, and consequent departure of many of the fine journalists who formerly wrote those pieces.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Jacob said...

Probably a good idea to vote on this in the summer when its good an hot.

Seriously.

wilwol said...

Nate,

I don't think they can afford to wait till Nov 2010. The Obama admin needs to prepare for the Copenhagen 2009 conference in December, which is the last conference before Kyoto Protocol expires in 2012....

This means if by this Copenhagen conference, the United States hasn't have any kind climate change bill (carbon emission control) in place, the chance of getting a "good" climate agreement is lower.

Yeah, it's kinda a chicken and egg problem... Nobody wants to go first..

markymark said...

I think that there is a possibility of Obama trying to score a victory on this before the Healthcare debate. Some of these moderate Dems who aren't going to be cooperative on healthcare are going to have to find something that makes them look like Democrats. Climate Change might just be the right kind of issue for the moderates to appeal to the left on and allow them to tack back to the right on healthcare?

Bradford said...

For your reading pleasure:

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2006/2005SW000207.shtml

Cambide pediced very low sunspots and cooling over the next two sunspot cycles IN 2006!

Coming true?

Pragmatus said...

Minnesota Senate Race Update…

Off-topic post, but this is the latest word on the Franken seating case.

For those of your who want to know immediately when a decision is forthcoming, you can subscribe to this feed.

PeteKent said...

Cap n' Tax or trade (or whatever) is dead in the water and will go nowhere.

Obama has failed to fix the economy, despite being given the gift of a nearly $800 billion stimuless bill. It is doubtful the Congress, which is terrified of having to run under the banner of double digit unemployment, next year will pass this loony plan to deal with a speculative problem like global warming.

We have plenty of fossil fuels, global warming has been reversing itself for the past decade and everyone knows that this bill will only cost jobs and kill off American exports. Whose gonna pass this POS legislation? Keep dreaming!

We are now over 4 months into his Presidency and yet jobless claims came in today over six hundred thousand again. Obama seems incapable of creating jobs. Worse the price of milk and gas keeps rising, with oil prices now up over 50% since the beginning of the year.

Obama promised that if we passed the stimulus bill, unemployment would not hit 8%. Well, now its 9.4% and rising. Yesterday he admitted at his presser that the rate will top 10% this year. Match this with the fact that our stock market has declined some 40% in the past year and home prices and sales have collapsed and you have a nation hanging on by a thread, a people who cannot afford another trip to the Mall, let alone one to Disneyland!

Of course, to listen to the media, you would barely know this is going on. The statistics are at best dryly reported, but no sense of the calamity is coming through. All you hear about are “green shoots”. Well, if you ask me we have been looking at those green shoots for several months now and with jobless claims remaining over 600,000, it appears more and more that those shoots are weeds, not flowers, and our economic garden is far from ready to bloom.

Don’t believe me? Well, Obama’s friend and advisor, Warren Buffet, declared yesterday that our economy is in “shambles” (http://tinyurl.com/meudda ) and that a recovery will take years.

On what then are we spending trillions? What are we getting for our money?

Obama lied or was incredibly mistaken about his stimulus bill and its impact. Now we are supposed to trust him and his promises about healthcare reform and while at it impose a carbon tax that would further stall our economic recovery???

With healthcare reform it is becoming clear that the numbers do not add up. Universal coverage remains a pipe dream and the cost is still in the trillions. Fictive cost savings are said to pay for a part of it, but everyone knows massive tax increases will be necessary to close the gap.

Okay, let’s say he only taxes the “rich”. What do you think that will do to near term economic activity? Again, this massive shift of wealth to the feds would do little to promote job creation and ingenuity and will cause us to be further mired in recession. And saddled with a new entitlement program that will be broken from the start and no progress having been made in dealing with the 32 TRILLION DOLLAR Medicare shortfall that the nation faces!

Against this track record or economic failure and a wrongheaded plan for healthcare reform, you can be sure the enviro-wackos will be put in their place and he will not get cap and trade.

I think it is now even money bet that Congress will not pass health care reform either.

His only legislative accomplishment for his first term will be a wasteful stimuless bill that did nothing but run up the deficit, fund some summer jobs and funnel money to ACORN.

You can be sure Obama is very grateful to Governor Sanford for yesterday’s revelations about his bizarre behavior.

As a people we should not allow ourselves to be distracted from the very real problems we face and the misery that Obama is presiding over in this country.

petekent01 (on twitter)

Pragmatus said...

This is what happens when “the market” is left free and unfettered to run things. Too bad these guys are caught only after they run through billions of dollars of other people’s money.

Glenn Doty said...

Nate, you need to do some research into the oil market at large if you aren't certain that the price will rise - and rise quickly.

By the end of 2011 we'll probably see oil between 250 and 300/bbl.

Look into Mathew Simmons work and run some analysis... it might be interesting for many of your readers that don't understand the dynamics of a market where demand has extremely low price elasticity - but has a high variability based on the overall economic performance; and a supply that has a reasonably high price elasticity with a 2 year lag - that is the low prices now will effect the supply in 2 years (when demand will again be surging as the global economy shrugs out of the recession/depression).

It should be interesting (and enlightening) for many of your readers... and possibly you yourself as well.

nofxgrl107 said...

Argh. Business groups and agriculture groups are tryin so hard to block this...even though its only half as tough as it should be. climate change is going to affect their bottom line like evrybody elses. As it is, I havent seen rain in months and Texas is already at 15 degrees higher than average.What will it be like in 50 years? These people are blind to the severity of whats already happening.

Rudy said...

That TV show from the White House last night couldn't have done a better smackdown on the speciousness of the Obama health care agenda.

Let's do one now for cap-and-trade.

PeteKent said...

Rudy, I boycotted the show, but in etrospect it was great to get Obama on record.

petekent01 (on twitter)

matador said...

Glenn Doty said...

By the end of 2011 we'll probably see oil between 250 and 300/bbl.


June 25, 2009 10:21 AM

does this means that the economy is recovering by that year ???

If yes,don't tell Petey,
He could have a serius heart attack and maybe he will need a transplant NOT covered by His insurance.

John said...

I always find the beano Cooks of the world amusing...When the government attempts to raise capital and ebb the flow of energy a bit to conserve a finite resource and possibly help the planet, it's moralizing to its people. When companies run low on said resource, or have to pay for their polluting a resource they don't own and then raise prices, it's free market capitalism...Quite funny

Rudy said...

Seems pretty clear that there will be no vote on Friday in the House. They aren't even close to having all the votes. It was a bluff.

Overreach, overreach, overreach. Except on world affairs. Then, Obama votes, "present."

Christopher said...

I think Pete Kent is actually a Stephen Colbert type of entertainer. He dons the guise of a "mainstream conservative Republican" and then spouts this Fox News brand of ridiculous bullshit as though he actually believes it. Then he sits back and laughs when the occasional actual "mainstream conservative Republican" agrees with him. It's pretty funny if you don't actually take anything he writes seriously. Hey, maybe I'll subscribe to his twitter feed after all. (By the way, it cracks me up that he includes his twitter feed at the end of each post. If that's not the perfect cherry on top, I don't know what is.)

mclever said...

Obviously not the real Nate Silver...

Whether you like Pete Kent or not, your vulgarity isn't appreciated.

If you don't like what Petey says, don't read it.

mclever said...

If the goal is to get Cap-n-Trade passed, then I have to agree with Nate that getting a jump start in the House is a good idea.

Would give the Admin and the Senate leadership the flexibility to pick the time to fight that battle in the Senate.

mclever said...

Oh, puh-leeze.

Everyone knows that if Nate felt that way about Pete's posts, he'd just use his ultimate moderator powers to delete them.

Do what sane people do, and just ignore it, or offer substantive rebuttals.

Got an opinion on legislative strategy? On cap-n-trade?

Christopher said...

@ Dr. Who,

The "mainstream conservative Republicans" I was referring to are the clowns of the Republican world and those who follow them. The Rush Limbaughs, Sean Hannitys, and Sarah Palins of the country. It's important for there to be a myriad of opinions in this country and thus it is important for there to be thoughtful, reasonable conservative voices out there. If the latter describe you, then I meant no offense.

PeteKent said...

Dr. Who,

Was my main post above really nonsensical blather? As a conservative, how do you differ? Care to proffer your own views?

As some have observed I always try and post something provocative, but thoughtful, and then my attackers come out and attack me ad hominem, not attacking the argument per se.

Yes, I am derisive of Obama and his policies, but they deserve derision - esp in an environment where he is being given such a free pass by most of the analytical community.

BTW Matador,

There is no chance of oil hitting 250 bbl. Demand will remain weak for a long time and will take years to surpass peak levels of a last year and before. Supply remains plentiful so that too should continue to suppress prices.

The wild card would be some sort of exogenous shock to the market, but those dislocations tend to temporary and argue for an "all of the above approach" to energy.

petekent01 (on twitter)

nova_middle_man said...

I'll go ahead and wade on this/take the bait :-p

I'll put my agreement with Pete around 50%. The missing piece (adn also with the Rs in general right now) are what would you do instead.

So I'll go ahead and post this challenge.

Pete

Next time you post exaplain what you would do instead. Its easy to criticzie. At the very least come up with an idea. Doesn't have to be earthshattering but it would move the conversation forward at least.

Pan said...

What we see in the US car industry today, however, is the real cost of doing nothing.

No, the problem with the US car industry today is not a lack of government intervention but a lack of innovation by the domestic car industry.

Japanese cars presented a cheaper, more fuel efficient and more reliable alternative to US lemons. The domestic car industry did nothing to fight this, even though Toyota led the Japanese influx way back in the early 1970s.

Blame the unions and management for the failure of the domestic auto industry. Good riddance. Make a good product or stand aside. Don't go crying to the government for help.

As it is, I havent seen rain in months and Texas is already at 15 degrees higher than average.What will it be like in 50 years? These people are blind to the severity of whats already happening.

Here in Virginia, temps are unusually low and rain is plentiful. I guess that's a counterpoint to your "argument." Maybe you should understand that regional variations in weather are quite normal and not a symptom of global warming.

PeteKent said...

Dr. Who,

I suppose my ripping into Obama personally is simply payback for the horrible attax on Bush we had to endure for years. Good for the goose . . . .

I also think that he is a man of questionable birth and legitimacy and this cloud over him must be lifted. The media are the ones who could insist on this, but will not do so, perhaps because they are afraid of what they will find.

Never in modern history were we allowed to elect a man as to whom there was so little personal curiosity, no reaching back to his past, talking to his friends and acquaintances over the years , tracking down those who know the real Obama. All of that was ignored as inconvenient to the controlled personal biography he wished to present and as to which he got away because of media complicity.

Now those who do question his legitimacy are branded as wackos, as if all those matters were settled -- which they have not been.

I'll start with knowing what hospital he claims he was born in.

Response to alternatives in another post.

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

Consumer Driven Healthcare as an Alternative

In terms of alternatives, let’s start with the proposition that what is on the table now is worse than the status quo. Doing nothing is almost always better than doing the wrong thing.

Those who claim to read me will know that I am supporter of consumer driven healthcare as espoused by Regina Herzlinger, Harvard economist and healthcare expert.

Consumer driven healthcare puts the consumer back into control in terms of both treatment and economic decisions. We allow consumers to make complex economic choices every day, we trust the market place to work and yield satisfaction, why isn’t it so with healthcare?

One thing we must do is level the playing field and break the connection between healthcare and your employer. Each individual must be free to obtain the coverage (or non-coverage) that they want. My coverage should not depend on who my boss is, but what I want.

By giving everyone in America a refundable tax credit of sufficient size so as to level the playing field between those who get employer coverage and those who do not will go a long way towards decoupling that relationship. We would have to end the present subsidy for employer provided healthcare, but the credit would make up for it.

People must be encouraged and trusted to make economic choices. Having high deductible HSAs is one way to lower the costs and improve outcomes. First off, the insurance is much cheaper. And if the first few thousand dollars you spend on treatment comes out of your own pocket you will be much more conservative in your choices and you will be much more demanding of value for your money.

Studies have shown that HSAs are incredibly popular and lower costs. They also lead to higher outcomes. They are on the vanguard of the consumer-driven movement. Yet very little attention is being paid to this model and all that seems to be discussed is universal coverage under the traditional managed care type plans which for years have not worked well in controlling costs or yielding satisfaction. Surely there is a better way.

The coverage problem is way overblown and it is now more or less commonly understood that the number of chronically uninsured is more likely 8 million than 40 million, the rest are either temporarily dislocated and will get back to insurance or are making a free choice not to have coverage.

People should be made to pay for what they want and what they get -- not for what somebody else wants or gets.

That’s my alternative view!

petekent01 (on twitter)

PeteKent said...

All right, Dr. Who, so since you are such a reasonable conservative, what's your alternative?

From what I can gether you are starting to resemble a troll around here - -throwing brikbats and stirring things up, but never really saying ANYTHING.

I am beignning to think that like the late and unlamented Virginia Conservative, you are just a fraud.

If you can, disabuse me and let us all in what a "real" conservative feels about healthcare reform.

I am tired of doing most of the heavy lifting around here for our philosophy and could use the help!

petekent01 (on twitter)

Mike in Maryland said...

Pan said...
Maybe you should understand that regional variations in weather are quite normal and not a symptom of global warming.

Nice of Pan to admit he/she/it has absolutely no knowledge of, and has no interest in, nor intention of, learning about "Global Climate Change", the causes, effects, and history of such.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

John said...

"A man of questionable birth"

Are you doubting that he was born? Do you think he was spawned in some left-wing conspiracy? Or hatched in a NASA laboratory?

Or is it just another racist attack on his lineage?

matador said...

PeteKent said...

"...I am tired of doing most of the heavy lifting around here..."

June 25, 2009 12:54 PM

So take some rest Petey,and let the chips fall were they may as you did in the last 8 Years.
Obama is going to stay in charge 4 + probably 4 years (given the GOP state of art)...there will be plenty of time.
So listen:
meet some friends,have a beer together,date a woman (if are not married)hang out with your wife(if you are married)...and relax,it will be fine for everybody.

kisses.
:)

matador said...

typo:
were = where.

sorry Juris.
:)

matador said...

@Petey,
I almost forgot.
I am gonna save this:

****************
PeteKent said...

BTW Matador,

"...There is no chance of oil hitting 250 bbl..."
June 25, 2009 11:39 AM

****************

just in case...you know... I like Nostradamus foretell.
:P

Glenn Doty said...

@ Peter Kent

Concerning oil supply and demand, there are two things that you are wrong about:

1, the market demand will again rise to 87 million barrels/day and beyond. China is still growing, and their oil thirst will continue to grow; as will India's and SouthEast Asia as a whole. World oil demand will rise fairly rapidly over the next 3 years regardless of the economic performance of America and Western Europe. I personally believe we'll see America's economy bottom this year and grow rapidly thereafter, but in terms of world oil demand that hardly matters at all.

2. Oil supply is not fixed, it is always depleting. The world's wells are gradually drying at an average rate of 3 million bbls/day anually. That means that every year at least 3 million bbls/day of new production must be developed in order for the world supply to remain constant. At the same time that the credit markets froze, oil crashed to 30.00/bbl (demand fell out as a result of the economic recession, and a lot of new production had been brought online due to the promise of 150.00+/bbl oil). That means that nearly no new wells were being drilled, no new oil shale or tar sands or coal-to-liquids synthesis plants, etc.. These projects take years to come online, but as the current supply runs dry - at a rate of 3 million barrels/day/year - there will be no new development to replace it. That's why the market is screwed up - supply has a price elasticity that is lags the market by 2 years or so.

This prolonged period of low priced oil (even at 70.00/bbl new deep water, polar, tar sand, oil shale, biofuels, and synthetics are all low profit or profit loss) will result in a supply deficit as the world demand resumes and excedes its former peak.

Of course, the result of that extremely high priced oil will be another investment boom which will overshoot, crash the market, and again result in another supply deficit...

This cycle didn't used to be a part of the energy market because the deep super-fields didn't see rapid dry-ups, and most of the world's supply used to be derived from the super-cheap super-fields... As these haven't been sufficient, we've targetted much less stable production (deep water, EOR, poorer geology fields using horizontal drilling, etc..) which has accounted for a higher and higher percentage of the world's energy profile.. and now the super fields are starting to go dry.

I'll happily admit that oil won't break 100/bbl this year, but by the end of 2011 we'll see prices pushing double their previous highs. Right now there is less than one half the number of wells being drilled than there was last year, and the count is still dropping (all the current activity was funded before the market crash, almost no new energy development has been funded since Sept).

We're backing ourselves into a serious corner here.

mclever said...

I think most people, conservative and liberal alike, agree on the necessity of de-coupling health care coverage from employment. The fact is, that in the current situation, consumers don't really have a choice. They get what their employer offers, or they go without. That is actually anti-competitive, and it stifles employees from being able to change jobs, reducing competition in the job market, too. Plus, it is an unfair burden on employers, making them less competitive on the global market.

People need to be able to get healthcare coverage independent of whether or not they are employed.

But heaven forbid that those who want to purchase private insurance have one of those pesky "pre-existing conditions". People can be turned down for things such as acne, migraines, a sprained ankle three years ago, bronchitis 6 years ago, or even for ADD or depression. Nevermind if they have a serious chronic condition such as diabetes or kidney disease. Even if the insurer offers to "cover" them, I've personally seen premiums of over $1000/month for a $50K deductible and 50% coverage after that. Faced with that as the "choice", it's no wonder many opt to remain uninsured and hope they don't have over $62K in health expenses for the year.

Where I disagree with Pete is that private insurance will always be competing to have the healthiest population, not to provide the best possible care to all patients. Therefore, the "free market" model is a failure for those who most desperately need care.

Also, the consumer (patient) is often not in a position to make cost-based health care decisions. If my appendix ruptures or if I have a heart attack, I'm going to the closest emergency room. I don't have time to risk my life by shopping around or doing a cost-benefit analysis on all of the doctors in the area before selecting telling the ambulence where to go.

Health care isn't like shopping for a new car or widescreen TV. I can take all the time I want to compare features vs. price and make my choice. With health care, my very life might be at stake and dependent upon receiving immediate care at any cost. In a "free market", health care providers have patients over a barrel.

That's why healthcare is different. Even more than a utility like water or electricity. If you're running short on cash, you can take fewer showers or turn off your lights. You can't decide to cut back on being sick.

mclever said...

Speaking as someone who formerly worked in the natural resources industry, Glenn Doty is absolutely correct about the situation with the world's oil supply. Meeting current demand is very dependent on exploration and exploitation of new sources, because the existing fields can not meet current demand levels indefinitely.

New sources can take 5-10 years to bring into the pipeline, so if there is a projected shortfall of resources, then it can take years for production in new fields to sufficiently meet increased demand.

I will leave the precise price projections to the economists, but what Glenn Doty says about increased demand in correlation to the ability to maintain current production levels corresponds to what industry participants believe.

Pan said...

Nice of Pan to admit he/she/it has absolutely no knowledge of, and has no interest in, nor intention of, learning about "Global Climate Change", the causes, effects, and history of such.

Hey douche - regional weather variations have been around since before man started using fossil fuels.

Your "Global Climate Change" is a scientific fraud.

Your "Global Climate Change" flag-bearers are serious hypocrites (what is Al Gore's "carbon footprint"?).

Your legislative fixes are nothing but regressive tax schemes.

Every dire prediction from the ninnies in the "Global Climate Change" camp have failed to materialize.

Polar ice cap melting? Nope. Still there.

Gulfstream shutting down? Nope. Still there.

Warmer winters in Northern latitudes? Nope. It's June and winter is still hitting Northern Canada.

Take a basic meterology course and you'll learn that regional variations in weather are completely normal.

Only Al Gore and douches like you think otherwise.

Darkmage2 said...

The President just gave a speech on climate change. Does that make this entire post by Nate moot?

beavis said...

I suppose my ripping into Obama personally is simply payback for the horrible attax on Bush we had to endure for years. Good for the goose . . . .

They were justified Petey.

He did nothing to stop 9/11.

He lied to get us in a war that is still on going that has destroyed the lives of thousands, a country, and our world standing.

He ate cake while New Orleans burned.

He trashed the constitution.

He used fear to keep people in line.

Torture

Plus he is beyond stupid.

He deserved every bit of mocking that he got plus a lot more.

If you think it should take less then 5 months to fix the damage that 28 years of trickle down caused, you aren't just delusional, you are insane.

Without the actions that Obama took, unemployment would easily be north of 12% and increasing fast.

beavis said...

The Fed will soon be forced to make the tough decision to raise interest rates sky high in an effort to stave off inflation. If inflation reaches its potential based on current deficits, money printing, etc., we're very likely to wind up as upside-down as Zimbabwe.

Everyone knows you are an idiot, you do not need to keep demonstrating it.

The money spend to boost recovery doesn't even come close to making up the loss in the GPD, therefore it will not cause inflation.

I see simple economics is beyond your meager intellect.

beavis said...

Polar ice cap melting? Nope. Still there.

Because it isn't completely melted that means it isn't melting?

It is dumbassery like this that is causing the marginalization of the "conservative" movement. The only thing you want to conserve is the status quo which makes billions for your masters while everyone else suffers.

The polar caps are melting, it is beyond dispute. Go look at images from 20 years ago and today.

Glenn Doty said...

@ Dr Who

Demand can grow beyond supply quite easily.

First, there are very large commercial and government inventories that can be slowly drained to maintain economies (for a short period of time) during times when supply is exceded by demand. Many countries across the globe chose to drain down some of their crude stockpiles during the last oil spike, resulting in 3 consecutive quarters where global demand exceeded global supply.

Second, there are other sources. Biofuels are a tremendous waste of government money in the form of endless subsidies, and result in a huge burden on society in the rapid inflation in the price of food staples... but they can be ramped up in a hurry. That could support a higher overall demand for petroproducts than there is available supply - though that's splitting hairs.

But in truth I don't disagree with you in this: we won't see world demand exceed world supply for a sustained period of time. However, when I stated that world demand would resume 87 million bbls/day and continue to grow, I did not specify time frames. I had intended to suggest - when I wrote that post - that the demand would quickly reattain its former peak, and gradually grow thereafter (until the next market crash). I chose my words poorly.

Your second criticism - that I'm naive for assuming that America will bottom this year and grow rapidly afterwords, is likely a result of different interpretations of "rapid" growth. For an economy of our size, I consider ~3% to be a "rapid" growth projection. If you mean to imply that America will remain mired in stagnation once we find a bottom, then we must agree to disagree.
:)

Mike in Maryland said...

Glenn Doty said...
Biofuels are a tremendous waste of government money in the form of endless subsidies, and result in a huge burden on society in the rapid inflation in the price of food staples...

You are making a false assumption here.

Bio-fuels (by definition) does not mean using feedstock only, thus endless subsidies does not automatically lead to 'the rapid inflation in the price of food staples'.

Bio-fuels can be made from ANYTHING that contains carbon. Waste products of saw mills (aka saw dust, etc.); yeast; saw grass; ANY product that has carbon as an element.

Corn is the (so far) most studied (actually for thousands of years), and it is relatively easy to crack it to produce a fuel product (actually alcohol). Wheat, rice, barley and other feedstock are also in this category (and don't forget grapes).

Saw grass, though, is not a feedstock, as no domesticated (by humans) animal will willingly eat it, and it grows in areas that are not suitable for growing feedstocks.

Algae are very high in carbon, very quick to grow, are NOT a feedstock, but not yet studied much. In addition, depending on variety, algae can grow in brackish or salt water. Feedstocks can not grow in brackish or salt water.

More research needs to be directed towards using non-feedstock carbon carriers to produce bio-fuels, and this will take some pressure off the rising price of such feedstocks.

Of course, if something is not done about uncontrolled population growth, preservation of arable land, and preservation of non-polluted water supplies, among other things, pressure on the price of feedstocks will continue to be present.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

markymark said...

Pan said
'Every dire prediction from the ninnies in the "Global Climate Change" camp have failed to materialize.

Polar ice cap melting? Nope. Still there.

Gulfstream shutting down? Nope. Still there.

Warmer winters in Northern latitudes? Nope. It's June and winter is still hitting Northern Canada.

Take a basic meterology course and you'll learn that regional variations in weather are completely normal.'
---------------------

Ok, to put the record straight.
Polar caps are melting
http://ecological-problems.blogspot.com/2009/02/polar-ice-caps-melting-faster-than.html

Of course melting doesn't mean melted, so they are still there.

Gulf stream change? Well
http://www.bbc.co.uk/climate/impact/gulf_stream.shtml

At this hits at thew issue- these are predictions. Its not they are happening now, but actually climate change predictions made in the past have proved to be astonishingly accurate.

Climate change in Northern Canada
http://www.taiga.net/nce/initiatives/publications/occasional_paper_03.pdf

My point is that climate change is real right now, its not something that is going to happen, it is something that is happening, but its effects are not yet entirely clear. Are the likes of Al Gore overstating the changes? Possibly. But it constantly amazes me that the right in American politics is the only group seriously and concertedly to deny the existence of Global Warming. I don't quite get what is to be gained from opposing something that is soooo obvious. (And yes it is obvious). Is oil money so important to the GOP? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Glenn Doty said...

@ Mike in Maryland

First, you are using the word "feedstock" as a substitute for "food staple".

All biofuels processes absolutely need biological feedstocks, as that is merely a term to denote inputs for chemical or industrial processes, and SOMETHING has to be input to get a product...

Vocabulary aside, I've followed the cellulosic ethanol development very closely. Right now government is subsidizing cellulosic ethanol by an average of over 3.50/gallon... and the industry is still having trouble hanging on in the competitive market. This is the case while the feedstocks are still relatively cheap (sawdust is free, wood pellets are 200/ton, etc). But these feedstocks are cheap because there is currently no demand (because they can't make cellulosic ethanol for less than 5.50/gallon). If the cellulosic processes ever did actually become market competitive (highly uncertain), then those feedstocks would find a ready market and competition would quickly drive their prices up through supply and demand.

Furthermore, there is a great deal of concern on the global warming front for cellulosic ethanol: When using wood pellets, less than 25% of the carbon of the feedstock ends up in the produced ethanol, the balance is exhausted as CO2... and this doesn't include the branches and leaves of the trees which are left rotting on the forest floor... So for every tonne of sequestered carbon that you hack down to produce ethanol, you MIGHT get ~180 kg of carbon in produced ethanol, while the other ~820 kg are emitted into the atmosphere. The sapling that you plant to replace your cut down tree will only sequester carbon at a rate of ~50 kg/year... so on balance this doesn't help global warming at all vs. EOR, conventional oil, deep sea oil, or even vs some heavy oils recovery (though it likely beats the tar sands and oil shale, and certainly beats coal-to-liquids).

Switchgrass has it's own issues on the global warming front, because of tilling the soil. Untilled soil naturally sequesters carbon over time. Tilling that soil causes oxidization and aeration and causes this sequestered carbon to be released... So tilling a plot of fallow land that would normally be left fallow (since it - as you suggest - would normally not be suitable for crops), will create a "carbon debt" that would take at least 30-50 years to "pay back" with constant biofuels production... That is the case for tilling fallow land under for traditional biofuels, for the cellulosic fuels which have much lower carbon recovery, I can only imagine the "payback" period would be far longer... and the environmental equation would be even worse.

As for Algae oil... fuels from algae have never been made at less than $35/GALLON, NOT including capital costs. Photosynthetic algae is a complete non-starter and will never be competitive.
Sorry.
:)

PeteKent said...

Obama advances two arguments for cap and trade.

One that it is needed to decrease our dependence on foreign oil. There other is that it will reduce global warming.

Here is what I wrote about that in another thread:

Obama claims we need to end our dependence on foreign oil.

Well, then, let’s drill for our own!

Oh, but that too will run out?

Okay . . . .

But long before the last drop is extracted or chunk of coal mined, the cost of extraction will rise steadily as more and more remote sources are plumbed. This will cause the price of fossil fuels to rise and will naturally engender the very alternative energy industry Obama wants. And it will do it without imposing a tax on any of us or killing our exports and reducing our jobs!

Also, as noted in that thread :

The tide is turning on Global Warming Pseudo Science. The latest Inconvenient Truth? The skeptics are winning out. There is no manmade Global Warming ( http://tinyurl.com/moqe2e )

How curious that the left accused the Bush administration of ignoring science for political reasons. It seems it is actually the modus opperandi of the Left!

Even if I admit, arguendo, that GW is real, the self-imposition of a tax system on our country will do nothing to solve the global problem.

Consider that as India, China, Brazil, Indonesia, and Africa (nothing is ever expected of the Africans, but lawlessness) continue to pollute and don't impose a tax on their own selves, United States exports become relatively more expensive and less competitive.

We lose jobs and wealth to the developing world and at best have a speculative impact on the environment.

This is folly and madness only a very stupid or evil man would propose such a thing.

Which one is President Obama?

If , as I noted in my above, there is no global warming and the whole thing is turning out to be a hoax, and we will have years to find cheaper alternative sources for the plentiful fossil fuels we have right here, and it will cost us jobs when we can ill-afford to lose them, why, then, are we doing this?

petekent01 (on twitter)