Matt Yglesias writes:
[E]xcessive alcohol consumption is associated with a lot of health problems, and not only problems for excessive drinkers—drunk driving and the linkage between alcohol and violence impose significant costs on other people. Mark Kleiman estimates that “Doubling the tax on beer (from a dime to twenty cents a can) would reduce the assault rate by at least 5%, and maybe as much as 20%.”There's pretty good economic evidence to suggest that alcohol consumption is fairly sensitive to price. And there's lots of good economic (and commonsencial) evidence that alcohol consumption is associated with a wide array of undesirable outcomes, from increased highway fatalities, to decreased productivity at work, to increased violence against women, to worsened health outcomes. Increasing alcohol taxes would, therefore, almost certainly save lives.
Meanwhile, you could get a healthy chunk of the revenue needed to pay for health care reform. [..] I don’t want my beer to get more expensive. But at the same time, I do want to see comprehensive health care reform. So someone will have to pay something. And this is a pretty good option.
One problem, however, which is somewhat unique to liquor consumption, is that these behaviors aren't particularly strongly associated with drinking unto itself. They are associated, rather, with drinking to excess and/or engaging in other, particularly stupid sorts of behaviors while doing so. I know the evidence on this is mixed, but many studies have suggested that moderate alcohol consumption is in fact associated with improved health outcomes -- especially if you're drinking red wine and especially if you're a guy. A person who has a couple of drinks a couple of days a week, and who never drives or has the compulsion to engage in violence while doing so, imposes virtually no negative consequences either on himself or on society. Drinking doesn't cause negative externalities in the same way that, say, driving (traffic congestion and pollution) or smoking (second-hand smoke) intrinsically do.
People say it's difficult to tax the undesirable behaviors associated with drinking without taxing drinking itself. But is that necessarily so?
In 2006, there were 1.1 million arrests for drunk driving in the United States (source), not counting Florida which didn't report its statistics. Fine each of those people $8,000, and you'd have almost about $9 billion more to pay for health care every year. Why $8,000? Because that's the figure, according to a 2001 paper (.pdf) by Steve Levitt (the Freakonomics guy) and Jack Porter, that would be required to internalize the negative externalities associated with driving drunk.* By the way, if you're concerned that this tax might be regressive, you could scale it according to a person's income, as they do for traffic fines in Finland.
Of course, if you were actually to fine people $8K every time they got a drunk driving conviction, you wouldn't raise quite as much as $9 billion. Faced with a choice between an $8,000 fine or a $20 taxi fare, a lot more people would have Yellow Cab on speed dial, and you'd have fewer revenue-producing arrests.** But this is a feature of the policy rather than a bug -- you'd be stopping drunk driving. Moreover, it's exactly the same feature/bug problem you'd run into by raising alcohol taxes in general, or any time you were trying to use tax policy to disincentivize an undesirable behavior.
The drunk driver tax would also produce at least as much revenue as the liquor tax. The CBO estimated (.pdf) in December that raising alcohol taxes to $16 per proof-gallon (by about 10 cents a drink over current levels) would raise about $6 billion per year. Even if our $9 billion total were decreased somewhat by deterred drunk driving -- and again, that would be a Good Thing -- we could probably beat that number.
Of course, there are probably some jurisdictional or federalism issues with this. And like Yglesias, I'd be willing to chip in a few extra cents with every beer to help pay for universal health care. (Although as a self-employed person who could probably expect some cost savings from alternatives to employer-based insurance, this is not necessarily a selfless act for me -- though I do drink a lot of beer!).
But a drunk driver tax would be fairer, more efficient, and more Pigovian than a beer tax -- and good luck to the liquor industry in trying to oppose it.
* Levitt and Porter don't account for fines and other sorts of explicit and implicit financial penalties (e.g. raised insurance premiums) that drunk drivers already face; on the other hand, they also don't account for externalities associated with merely maiming, rather than killing, innocent victims. Nor do they blame drunk drivers for the deaths of the other passengers in their cars, figuring that those people had knowingly accepted the risks of driving with someone who had been drinking to excess.
** Then again, there is probably some low-hanging fruit. The number of drunk driving arrests varies a lot from state to state -- from a high of 861 per billion vehicle miles traveled in Alaska to a low of 26 in Delaware. These differentials have virtually no correlation with the amount of drinking in each state -- slightly more Delawareans than Alaskans are binge drinkers, for instance. While I'm enough of a libertarian to be opposed to things like random traffic checks, clearly some states can afford to be more vigorous in their pursuit of drunk drivers.

100 comments
Nice idea, but I think getting a DUI is already a very expensive proposition in most states, just look at all the celebs in CA!
What will help? I think we need much better alcohol education in schools, akin to sex education, particularly about the harm of binge drinking.
Go for it, let's tax the hell out of the sons of bitches. Of course, attitudinal shifts are the only changes that will make a large-scale difference, but $8K would make anyone I know think twice.
We have a HUGE prob with drunk driving here in NM.
Not that long ago we had "drive thru" liquor stores (seriously)
No dollar cost can be associated with the loss of an innocent family to a drunk driver.
People should be sent to prison not fined for drunk driving.
Treat the drunk drivers as criminals not civil liabilities.
Just presented your idea to two co-workers. Can you get it in front of Frank?
I would tax Raquel Welch! (I have a feeling she'd tax me.) </montypython>
The reason to tax alcohol rather than anti-social alcohol-related behavior is because 1) it's easier and cheaper to collect alcohol taxes (for example, you're not going to catch all drunk drivers, and they're generally not going to pay up without a fight) and 2) alcohol taxes scale reasonably well (your fifth-a-day drinker is going to pay a lot more than your one-wine-after-dinner drinker, so you do a tolerably good job of targeting the problem people).
They're the same reasons why you tax gas to pay for highways, even though you could theoretically drive your car solely on local roads and never using a highway. It's a lot cheaper than having toll booths everywhere, and the people who rack up the miles will generally use highways extensively.
I have no idea where that 5-20% number came from. It seems like it was just made up.
There is also the issue about using police as your revenue-collection agents (more or less). If you're in trouble with the budget, you have the temptation to be a bit more aggressive in your law-enforcement efforts than would otherwise be warranted.
We (us libs) need to be real careful in these next few years. We can not be the opposite and equal reaction to Bush.
I personally think it should be a vat or something with equality. To keep putting it on the sinners is barborous. (Is anyone interested in living in a country w/o sin?)
I don't particularly think fatties are good to look at...why don't we just tax french fries enough to balance our budget. And since I don't like veal, we could be generous and pick up Frances debt if we taxed that enough.
Not only is it likely that the math will not play out as when the numbers are run, but sin taxes will not make this a better country. We will hate the Government more. We must, IMO, be careful.
It seems likely the volume of drunk driving incidents a state has corresponds to the percentage of population in urban areas. (e.g. DE vs AK) In an urban area, cabs are widely available and other mass transit options often exist. I have often had the problem of travelling to more rural areas and not being able to find an easy way home from a bar or sporting event.
I've always enjoyed having a beer or three but as I've gotten older I've had to pretty much back out of beer drinking completely because of the effects on my waistline. If I make the decision not to do that, but instead decide to "really pour it" on instead, then I increase my health risks and add costs to the insurance pool. I see nothing wrong with reflecting this in higher taxes on the product itself.
I see nothing wrong, also, with forcing college kids in Panama City to help pay for the additional social burdens their drinking binges cause in spring break towns.
I also happen to think that corn syrup should be taxed off the market. Libertarianism works when folks act responsibly. But, often, they don't. If companies insist on making products with corn syrup and fat people keep using it, then libertarianism's chief result is a bunch of fat people adding to the overall cost of health care.
In sum, I would say that libertarianism doesn't stand a chance against the core inclinations of a population that is proven statistically to be obese. I won't even go into the American addiction to pharmaceuticals and other bad health habits in this country other than to say revoke the pharm industry's right to advertise and let's raise taxes on cigarettes and alcohol (maybe we'll give red wine a break).
Nate,
It seems likely that the arrests per miles traveled is correlated to population density. But I think that a better solution could be a hybrid where you do a sliding scale (Finnish-style) on DUIs and tax beer at a somewhat lesser rate than the one Matt proposes.
I've never been able to understand the opposition to random checks for drunk driving. Libertarian principles are well and good when you are only harming yourself but when you drive drunk you are playing russian roulette with other's lives.
Random breath testing was introduced in Ireland about two years ago and the benefits were immediately obvious. Admittedly there is nowhere near as much drink driving there. There is a acceptance of drink driving socially in the US that is alien to my previous experience. People just don't see it as a big deal but in Ireland even before the random testing, it was somewhat socially unacceptable.
I say random testing and huge fines - that would put an end to it and make me fell safer on the road
I think this is a terrible idea. Should the difference between driving at .079 and .080 be $8,000? I believe the majority of serious and fatal accidents where alcohol is a factor are caused by repeat offenders with BACs well in excess of the legal limit. These people are not deterred by serious jail time; I doubt they will be deterred by high fines.
The far more likely consequence is the end of social drinking. Many people who routinely drive home at .060 will be scared into taking a cab by the threat of an $8,000 fine. These people aren't afraid of hurting anyone because they aren't a risk to anyone. They will be afraid of a blip on an unreliable breath test or overzealous cop.
Since you'll need to get your car the next morning, that $20 cab fare home is now a $40 round trip cab fare. Why go out for a beer with friends when my second beer comes with a $40 cab tax?
Yes, taxing alcohol sales or DUI convictions are good public policy, internalize externalities, yada yada yada.
But let's call this what it is, a good political ploy to fund healthcare.
Arguably, the most vigorous component of the GOP coalition is religious conservatives, especially Southern Baptists, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Fundamentalists and the LDS. While these folks might, as loyal Republicans, normally scream bloody murder over even a tiny tax increase, put before them the option of punishing sinful behavior with a new tax and they will climb onboard happily. Given that they are mainly, or at least theoretically, teatotallers, this tax also means that it's the best kind of tax, one that other people pay.
This could explain why the call for sin taxes has not extended to other more dangerous substances. A sales tax on all unhealthy foods, would also make sense. But try putting a tax on barbecue buffets, mac and cheese, Cocola or moon pies... all delicacies we enjoy a great deal down here in SC, and the religious conservatives will revert to screaming bloody murder.
@Hammer
On the other hand, you could see a dramatic increase in designated drivers.
I'm not saying I agree with the idea, just a thought.
In the days after Prohibition was lifted, taxes on alcohol were high enough to discourage consumption. Because the booze lobby has been so effective at resisting increases to match inflation, the real (inflation adjusted) cost has dropped dramatically, until beer is on a par with soft drinks.
Drunk driving is only a small part of the social cost imposed by alcohol. And people arrested for drunk driving are only a small subset of drunk drivers. At $8000, the proposed fine would be essentially confiscatory, for many people. That's not necessarily bad, but the effect of such a high fine would certainly be the increase in numbers of unlicensed drivers, and an increase in "informal" adjudication, including plea bargains and under-the-table payments.
A serious alcoholic drinks enough to maintain a non-zero blood alcohol level, which means their consumption is matched to the rate at which they are metabolizing alcohol - something like 300 grams per day. A typical non-alcohol dependent drinker may consume 20 grams per day, so the burden of alcohol taxes falls almost entirely onto alcoholics - it isn't distributed across the population.
It is an ugly fact that something like 80% of alcohol in the U.S. is consumed by alcoholics; non-alcoholic drinkers are essentially bystanders. The booze industry really doesn't care about anybody who isn't a "problem drinker" contrary to their public posture. You shouldn't think "most drinkers don't have a problem with alcohol - that's a small subset". Instead you should think "alcohol is consumed almost solely by alcoholics - the rest of us are dabblers."
As a former habitual drunk driver, and now reformed, I take no position regarding this particular issue. I do think that the unfortunately named "Douche Scrotesteen" has a good general point: if democrats immediately and vigorously begin increasing taxation ubiquitously, there will be a strong backlash, on the order of 1994.
I haven't read all the comments yet, so maybe someone already said this, but I feel like, if your objective was to get more revenue, and not to necessarily stop people from drinking (Though, I know that the latter is a very good outcome anyway), than wouldn't it be smarter to do the tax raising thing? I don't think 10 cents a can or glass will stop ANYONE from doing what they are already doing, and it will double the money coming in from it? Not a bad idea.
But that is assuming you want to get the money and not stop the activity... and I'm all for stopping the activity of over drinking or drinking and driving...
Interesting personally I am all for this.
I am also for extremly high speeding tickets (another common European idea)
Speeding and drunk driving are the two main causes of auto related accidents. My hunch is auto insurance rate and accidents would drastically decrease. Everybody wins.
This is a really fun exercise I want to explore other areas. People from the left often demonize guns to the point of trying to outlaw/ban them. Instead shouldn't we have extremly high penalties for people who use guns improperly.
The bottom line in both cases Alcohol and guns don't kill people. Idiots kill people.
Good idea, but you could make an even better (or additional) case for taxing junk food. Those in favor of a "sugary soda" tax are on the right track, but there's a lot more cr*p in the grocery aisles than that. Subsidized corn has made food processed with bizarre corn derivatives cheaper than real food, and is a lot responsible for current obesity rates, which are helping to drive up everybody's health care costs.
So a really good revenue-raising disincentive would be a tax on *any* processed food product that uses any ingredient made from corn. That's a lot more stuff than you might realize, and would at least get back some of the ridiculous agribusiness subsidies. I'm thinking states could do it as a response to the feds outrageous ag policies.
If we're going to consider negative externalities, and include them in any equation, wouldn't also be prudent to consider that alcohol may have positive externalities, like better social interaction, more positive attitudes? I guarantee I'm in a better mood and more productive at work when I have a satisfying social life, and that includes drinking beer on the weekends, or occasionally with friends in the evening. It's not like the only reason people drink alcohol is a) they're alcoholics or b) the minor health benefits.
Nosimplehiway, It's not a political "ploy" to fund something if you state your intentions from the beginning.
from the post:
"Meanwhile, you could get a healthy chunk of the revenue needed to pay for health care reform"
ploy, nope! This is the SPECIFIC REASON STATED for wanting to raise taxes.
Thanks :)
Hammer, blood alcohol of 0.06 isn't "no risk". They *should* be taking a cab or carpooling with a sober driver.
I wonder if a backlash of $8000 fines or criminal penalties would be more reckless driving by drunks trying to evade the cops.
But as I understand it heavy taxes are a factor in Scandinavian binge drinking. Save up for a heavy night out rather than buy drinks for each dinner. Perhaps when you're drunk the high prices of the next drink matter less?
Ideally you'd want a tax that scales by the number of drinks you've had that night, so a tax on n consecutive drinks is like n^2. Seems impossible to implement outside of a panopticon, though.
BAC fines for drivers could go like that though, instead of a hard and arbitrary-to-the-drinker threshold.
I'm all about (extremely) harsh DUI penalties, but increasing fines will make it less likely that non-monetary punishment will increase.
It will make it more probable that jailtimes and liscense suspensions will be reduced or kept static.
That means its ok to DUI if you're rich enough.
>>To keep putting it on the sinners is barborous.
But the proposal (extreme fines for drunk drivers) is not taxing the "sin" of drinking -- or even of drinking to excess. It's taxing the sin of drinking to excess and then getting into a multi-ton high-kinetic weapon. How in the verse do you make the case that the country is better for having drunk driving?
There are a few good arguments against, or at least, concerns. One is that assessing this fine is essentially random -- many people drive home drunk many times and never have an accident; some people have one on the first time. Moreover, as a high school teacher, I can tell you this: Teenagers, at least, don't really internalize things that might happen to them. They already "know" they could get killed drinking and driving; I doubt they could conceive of an $8000 fine. And, for underage drinkers, I would have to assume that the parents would pay?
Mark Grebner: It is an ugly fact that something like 80% of alcohol in the U.S. is consumed by alcoholics;
That's a very unbelievable statistic; if it really is true, though, then I'm going to need a source for it to believe it. Otherwise, it does sound like an urban legend.
I'd like to see more information/analysis on whether the deterrent effect of a DUI fine is stronger than a direct disincentive to drink.
I would tend to lean toward the higher alcohol tax, because intuitively I feel that would act as an immediate deterrent to the activity that later results in DUI and auto collisions. In contrast, the $8,000 fine because a potential cost of a potential action. In other words, I will have to pay the fine IF I have enough drinks to put me over the limit and IF I get into an accident.
Further, the cost benefit analysis of the "down-the-road" (pardon the pun) fine is increasingly prone to errors in judgment after each successive drink. So a person starting out the evening might be deterred from drink too much, but after two drinks he might think to himself that the chances of paying the fine are lower, when in fact they are much higher (if he remembers there's a fine at all).
I don't like regressive taxes in general.
If we just collected the taxes from the richest, and largest corporations, that they owe, and stop using more than half our money on the military welfare program, and stopped having the huge debts that result, we could get rid of all taxes whatsoever on the bottom 10% of income earners and not even notice.
Ugh No No No No No
Read Nates post again
Taxing all Alochol/Junk Food is the lazy easy way out. Why should you penalize the millions of people who can participate in activites responsibiliy.
Why in the heck should I pay more to have a drink or eat a hot dog.
Liberal nannystatisim at its worst
Instead punish the excessive behavior.
I admit its a bit tougher for junk food. We need to go after the people that eat a hotdog every day with a twinkie for dessert but tracking that would be complicated. Maybe some sort of tax if over 75% of your gorcery bill is unhelathy crap food or something.
Finally in the end the tax won't make a difference. Do you really think people will stop buying a beer/soda if its costs 3.05/1.05 vs 3.00/1.00
As someone who was once hit by a drunk driver - I like your idea. I do think it's more fair than raising the overall alcohol tax. Although I think maybe coupling this tax with a slightly higher alcohol tax in general could be a great solution (and yes I do drink on occasion.)
And yes - marijuana should be legalized as well. Most nonviolent offenders should be released from prison. This would save money on law enforcement / prisons.
And yes some kind of tax could be imposed on marijuana... That would work best in a state like California where they already have the whole medical marijuana industry in full swing. In other states it would be more difficult because marijuana is bought "underground" so it's hard to see how it could be taxed.
I have lost four friends to drunk drivers, three of whom were driving on a revoked license. Every one of these perps walked away from the accidents. I favor breaking the habitual drunk driver, as in the OJ treatment of taking all their assets.
I like the tax on junk/fast food too. This is the root of most of the health issues in America. Make the Big Mac eight bucks, and maybe people will revisit crudites.
It is an ugly fact that something like 80% of alcohol in the U.S. is consumed by alcoholics;
I'd be interested in seeing a source for that. In initial google, the closest I found was http://www.cspinet.org/booze/taxguide/lowerincome.pdf, which states that 83% of alcohol is purchased by 20% of consumers. Unless you have an extremely expansive definition of "alcoholic", that seems to contradict your figure.
"Health benefits from red wine"
This is trotted out by people who like to drink, know it is unhealthy, but want some defense. It's about as accurate, however, as saying "drink eight glasses of water a day" - it's "common wisdom" that is really just a popular myth.
---
MYTH: "Red wine prevents heart disease."
MYTH BUSTER: The concept that moderate alcohol consumption can reduce death rate due to heart disease has been around for several decades.
(full article - http://madelynfernstrom.ivillage.com/2007/10/busting-some-common-nutrition.html ) If you don’t drink alcohol, don’t start. There is no magic association of red wine and heart disease. Most up to date information suggests it is the alcohol. Monitoring the amount is key to avoid the negative effects of alcohol intake and to prevent weight gain."
---
The study that many seem to like to quote as reported by the BBC here ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2638399.stm ) has an important part that everyone seems to leave out, this part -
---
"Adverse effect
Alison Shaw, a cardiac nurse at the British Heart Foundation, said previous research had suggested moderate consumption of alcohol (1-2 units a day) protected middle aged men and post-menopausal women from heart disease.
But she said it would be wrong to draw firm conclusions from one study.
. . .
"In the long term, alcohol should not be used to protect the heart.
"The best way to reduce the risk of developing coronary heart disease is still to stop smoking, increase levels of physical activity and cut down saturated fats.""
---
One scientific study doesn't make fact - it produces evidence for use with further study. The science is not nearly complete on the benefits of alcohol consumption, but very complete on the detriments.
The "health benefit" is an excuse for people who like to drink. There is no solid scientific consensus, not even close, on the "benefits" of alcohol - and even those who suggest there are encourage no more than 4 oz. of wine a day. If that's all you drink, it probably has little to no negative effect on you, so go to it.
But pretty much everyone agrees the negatives go up after that point and vastly outweigh any potential positives.
Long story short - if you are going to do something that is bad for you and you know it is bad for you, just accept that. Don't try and justify it with shoddy, incomplete and widely misquoted science.
I know the following part of the article was thrown away as almost an offhand remark, but its a really dumb idea if you even stop to think about it:
"By the way, if you're concerned that this tax might be regressive, you could scale it according to a person's income, as they do for traffic fines in Finland."
To tie criminal punishment not to the severity of the crime, but to the background of the person goes against everything that our legal system is based upon. There is a reason that we match the punishment to the crime and not to the person (or class/race/gender of the person). Just imagine the unintended consequences of opening such an avenue up.
@Ben "...'something like 80% of alcohol in the U.S. is consumed by alcoholics;'...if it really is true, though, then I'm going to need a source for it to believe it. "
A significant number of people feel justified in lying about alcohol consumption, because they believe alcohol is inherently evil. Thus, Ben, I agree that alcohol statistics without citation should be given zero credence. Even cited stats should not be accepted at face value, because so many of them are utter crap.
Alcohol-facilitated mayhem is a serious problem. People who exaggerate this problem and put forth misleading statistics damage discourse on the subject and impair the search for effective mitigations. Such actions are stupid, counterproductive, and immoral.
Regarding the claim that 80% of alcohol is consumed by alcoholics in the US, I can't find any reference to support it. It seems physically possible, if you pick a loose enough definition of "alcoholic." But as I said, I won't accept such a claim without a citation, preferably one that I can drill back to the source literature.
Also, the percentage of alcohol consumed by alcoholics is relevant for some questions and not others. For example, it does not imply that the liquor industry only cares about consumption by alcoholics. It is plausible that alcoholics drink cheaper than average drinkers, so it could be the case that most of the alcohol is going into alcoholics, even though most of the money is coming from non-alcoholics.
Anyway, it appears that Canadian alcoholics aren't up to the 80% standard. "Consumed in excess" isn't the same thing as "consumed by alcoholics," but the former is probably considerably larger than the latter.
Half of Alcohol Consumed in Excess, Canadian Study Estimates
Sorry, Nate. This time your suggestion is not very smart.
First of all, good luck getting most people to pay $8,000 in fine money. Folks would rather go to the court of appeals, or go to prison, or go bankrupt.
Secondly, the fine will not discourage people from drinking and driving; it will discourage them from getting caught at it. That might actually create far worse dangers on the road.
Finally, an $8,000 fine would be impossible to pass, and if by some miracle it did pass, it would be thrown away fairly quickly. It'd be easier to get the dry law back in force.
"Faced with a choice between an $8,000 fine or a $20 taxi fare, a lot more people would have Yellow Cab on speed dial, and you'd have fewer revenue-producing arrests."
Uh, maybe. You might also incentivize people who are arrested to spend a couple thousand bucks more on an attorney to fight the DUI.
Or you might also incentivize local prosecutors to plead people down from DUI to reckless driving and pay a few thousand dollars more in the form of a fine to the local government in order to avoid the $8,000 federal tax.
And what if people didn't have the $8,000? I take it you would let them off with a small or no tax. Rich people, of course, would successfully fight it or would game it by pleading to a lesser charge in exchange for paying the state or county a much higher fine (imposed on them via your Finland-type system. The advantage of Finland is the national government has the only police force, so you can't play the locals off the feds.) So, if you're poor enough or if you're rich enough, you can skip. But if you make some (modestly) higher level of income, you pay full freight? Meaning, once again, the tax will fall heaviest on the middle class, and we'll have bought ourselves a real political problem.
Also, do DUI rates vary by income level? If poor people drive drunk more often, you have a real collection problem.
Do DUI rates vary by racial classification? If minority groups are charged with DUI more frequently than whites, you have a real political problem.
Finally, collecting a sales tax is relatively easy. Collecting fines which will be dependent on the information reported to the U.S. by state, local and tribal governments and will have to be backed up by a legal process of imposing and executing on liens? Not so much.
Podhelmet -
I honestly can't even understand your post. I don't know where your quotes are coming from.
However, if you're trying to argue that there is NOT a strong association between very moderate, regular ethanol drinking and reduced risk of atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease in men, you are wrong.
The association is totally undeniable, and has been found in every good study done, in every population, and with every type of alcoholic beverage studied.
Your reference to "one" scientific study suggests extreme lack of awareness of the research.
The association is only with moderate consumption.
I have no problem with a slightly higher tax on ethanol, and strongly support heavy penalties for drunk driving, legalization of marijuana, etc.
I agree that those who don't drink at all probably shouldn't start.
I don't even have a problem with your obvious puritanical anti-alcohol agenda. I have many friends who don't ever drink at all, and I think that's a perfectly good way to live.
But the facts are the facts.
Gearoid,
I don't think the opposition is to "random checks" per se. The big concern (I think) is that the checks won't be random. And so certain groups will be disproportionately targeted / it'll become a weapon for police to search for other violations when they don't have enough cause.
I don't think most people would oppose a truly random (or universal), nonintrusive method of checking your sobriety before you drive.
Have to agree with most others here and say it's not a particularly well thought out idea.
Your (and Levitt's I think, though I didn't read the paper closely) assumption is that heavy drinkers would treat their utility functions in more of an expected utility fashion whereby the 8k would be a big deal. In fact most substance dependent people have very high discounting rates, meaning the assumption of reducing drunk driving is likely overstated since they would value the expected loss in the future much lower than one might expect, especially in "hot" states when using substances (see Bernheim and Rangel's 2004 AER paper for more info on this.)
Sergeiy and Mithras -
Your arguments are the exact logical equivalent of saying that since we don't catch all murderers, since heavily punishing murder makes murderers try not to get caught, since prosecutors sometimes make deals to plea down homicide cases, and since rich people can afford lawyers to aggressively fight murder charges, we should not have laws against murder.
No law is ever, or ever expected to be, perfectly enforced.
Sergeiy,
Keep in mind that going to the Court of Appeals doesn't get you off the hook. If you're guilty, they'll just attach part of your wages. The Bankruptcy Code might not discharge fines incurred for drunk driving, and it certainly could be amended to that effect.
So sure, people could sit in prison for a few months. But that's a deterrent too.
I agree with Ezzie. If you get busted buying cocaine, you lose your car. There is no protection via bankruptcy. You also lose your ability to get a federal loan, and a host of other dire consequences. It should be the same for alcohol abuse. The penalty must be so severe that even in an addled state one would pause before getting behind the wheel.
Normally I do filter taxes through the lens of regressive or not, but in the case of drunk driving, I don't really care to let ppl off the hook because of their financial circumstances. I would however, agree to a fine, which is what this is, that was based on income . Here's why. Someone who drives drunk and makes $25k a year, sure fine them $8k hopefully they will learn their lesson. But someone who makes >$1 million, that's a slap on the wrist. They can break the law with virtual impunity. Fine them $50k, they might actually take to heart that their are consequences to endangering others.
This is my favorite comment so far
"Should the difference between driving at .079 and .080 be $8,000? ... Many people who routinely drive home at .060 will be scared into taking a cab by the threat of an $8,000 fine. These people aren't afraid of hurting anyone because they aren't a risk to anyone."
So...it is ridiculous to tax 0.080 rather than 0.079. But 0.060 is stone cold sober, and 0.080 is hammered? I thought that intoxication was a continuum and 0.060 could be very dangerous to some people. If you are driving at 0.060 on your 21st birthday and you can't walk a straight line, yes, you should be fined.
And then there is this "Why go out for a beer with friends when my second beer comes with a $40 cab tax?" This seems like someone who wants to drive drunk. Why would I go out to have beers, if I'm going to be over the limit and have to take a cab??? I should be able to drive home drunk, as long as I'm REALLY careful. lol.
nova_middle_man, you wouldn't be able to add 5 to 10 cents more per drink for the extra tax? That's too much? wow....
thats more than the tip you are going to leave anyway
@Chris:
""
To tie criminal punishment not to the severity of the crime, but to the background of the person goes against everything that our legal system is based upon.
""
This proposal is radical, I do agree. However, that $8000 fine is more of a punishment to someone with my (all-but-zero) income than it is for someone pulling in 6 figures. Thus, a fixed fine does not produce the same punishment. Is the US legal system not based on equal punishment for equal crime?
I think we should raise income taxes to fund health care. That way everyone pays, everyone benefits. But, if we must sit in moral superiority over others, will we be taxing fast food restaurants, prepared packaged foods in supermarkets, and anything else that causes fatal car accidents (like cell phones)? And if we sit in moral superiority to others, can others sit in moral superiority over us (like Miss California)?
I do think the federalism issue would create a serious problem, since criminal sanctions are generally left to states unless there is some strong national interest. To collect the fine the federal government would probably have to actually prosecute drunk driving cases (which I have no doubt the federal government could do if it so desired.) However, to levy a federal fine in a state criminal prosecution strikes me as one of those few actions the federal government is prohibited from doing under the 10th Amendment (similar to compelling state police to run background checks when someone attempts to buy a gun.)
Bad idea. I used to be a public defender, and a significant chunk of my clientele were DUI defendants. I can say that the majority of DUI defendants coming through the courts in Seattle were unable to afford the cost of their defense, so they got me. Of course, because they couldn't afford an attorney, they usually couldn't afford the already-significant fines that got attached to a conviction. You are basically taking the most economically fragile sector of our population, and putting additional stresses upon them.
I'm not saying that DUIs are a strictly lower-economic problem. But they are predominantly so. Better educated, wealthier people take taxis more often and drive drunk less frequently. The people who do drive drunk will tend to be less persuadable by a cost/benefit analysis. This means that the people who are actually going to be subject to this tax are the ones who will be unable to pay it. You can't generate revenue that way.
Thats not the point at all
I'm saying it wouldn't make any difference. A person isn't going to say man I really want a beer but dang it that $3.05 cost I'm not going to have one now.
Drunk driving laws do matter. As most people know drunk driving is almost non existant in Europe along with speeding due to very heavy fines and penalties. Thats something to replicate here.
What I am saying is trying to regulate alcohol comsumption/junk food consumption/ tons of other liberal nannystate ideas is completely asinine. Why should I and the vast majority of users have to pay more for something that I can enjoy in moderation. Its a tax plain and simple it won't curb consmuption.
Brilliant idea since only rich people drive drunk. While jail time isn't a good deterrent, clearly a big fine will be.
NOT!
Nate, if you had any idea how the criminal justice system was administered you'd understand that big fines are counter-productive. There will be outs for everyone in the system and the cost of administration will dwarf the increase in fines.
Stick to statistics, where you're brilliant. Criminal justice -- not so much.
Another post showing Nate Silver is completely bereft of ideas and is an absolute ignoramus.
Raise income taxes to fund health care...
Ok so where is the incentive to control behavior on that one. I get free healthcare damn the consequences.
It should work like auto insurance. You get discounts for being a safe/driver/healthy person. You get discounts for anti-lock breaks, car alarm/ going to checkups etc.
These comments are interesting but its tough to argue with you guys. We are viewing the same world and coming up with vastly different results.
Personal responsbility and consequences. You take care or youself reward you mess up you pay. Its how the real world works. Really confused how people can disagree with that and insist on big government to meddle and treat people differently and even reward poor behavior.
Just a point on the logic you used at the end... Smoking and driving don't "intrinsically" create negative outcomes any more than drinking does.
Driving an electric car outside of major metros during rush hour doesn't contribute to either pollution (at least not much) or to traffic congestion.
Second hand smoke in particular is only an effect if the smoker is inconsiderate enough to smoke in circumstances where other people will breathe the smoke as well, which can easily be avoided.
@nova_middle_man:
I like this approach, and am unsure why the insurance companies do not follow it now (except for smoking). If my behavior increases the chance that I will need the insurance company to pay out, I should have my premiums increased.
Nate...
You’re talking about raising $9 billion by taxing people caught driving drunk. I think that figure is wishful—how many drunk drivers could cough up $8,000 on demand? In my experience truly mindless drunk driving is associated with the truly mindless, who tend to cluster at the lower end of the socio-economic scale. I’d cut your figure in half—to $4.5 billion at most.
And what is $4.5 billion in this day of multi-trillion dollar deficits? Chump change, parking-meter money.
I’m in favor of what the government did in financing the Civil War, which was implement a blizzard of small taxes, paid for by revenue stamps, on a host of transactions. The costs of the Civil War were astronomical by the standards of the day, completely unheard of, and yet the revenue enhancements that were put in place paid for the war but did nothing to hamstring the vigorous economic expansion that followed it.
What we need to overcome in this country is the rabid aversion to implementing taxes that will be necessary to undo the financial mess we find ourselves in.
Excellent analysis. You're my hero for referring to the tax as a Pigovian tax.
Pragmatus, not all fines are expected to be paid on demand. Some misdemeanor crimes and traffic penalties have high fines. Someone who can't afford the fine usually can ask to pay off the fine gradually. Same thing would a apply here.
"It's an ugly fact that something like 80% of all alcohol in the U.S. is consumed by alcoholics." The reason I didn't cite a source is that I've never found one. My phrasing was intended to convey that it's a back-of-the envelope calculation. I'd love to hear a better number, with a proper source. But the only numbers that come readily to hand are those peddled by the booze industry, which has every reason to avoid comparisons weighted by alcohol, because the nature of their game is exposed.
There is no incompatibility between a statement that "most people who drink consume moderately" and "most alcohol is consumed by people who drink to excess". It's a classic example of the difference of using different metrics for calculating an average: people or alcohol.
My definition of "alcoholic" is pretty simple conceptually: people who are dependent on alcohol for their normal functioning. That is, if alcohol isn't available, they perceive a "problem" which gets progressively more urgent for them. They may be able to stop drinking, but they can't stop thinking about drinking.
The distribution of alcohol consumption is severely skewed. Some people don't drink at all. Lots of people drink a little bit. Some people drink moderately. And 10% of the population drinks as much as their bodies can metabolize or excrete.
Before people consign my comments to "urban legend" or whatever, please take a look at the following quote, which I found by following up one of the responses. The poster misquoted it as saying 83% was consumed by 20% of low-income people. The actual statement was pretty much in line with my (unsourced) claim:
Among consumers in the bottom quintile, the 20 percent who consume the most account for 83 percent of the alcohol purchased. Because fewer than half of consumers in that income bracket have expenditures for alcohol, that means that 10 percent of the lowest-income consumers buy more than 80 percent of the alcohol.
(http://www.cspinet.org/booze/taxguide/lowerincome.pdf) (Center for Science in the Public Interest.)
One thing that I find interesting when sin taxes or fines are actually proposed is that politicians feel the need to frame the taxes as deterrents to bad behavior rather than revenue-raisers. And, in a lot of cases, the former just isn't true. I'm not sure if a hefty fine for drunk driving would fall into this category, but there's been a good deal of research to suggest that lowering speed limits and stuff like that does little to actually discourage people from speeding, all it does is raise revenue.
I personally don't think this is a bad thing -- as you say, the government has to get money somewhere, might as well be tax "bad" things. I just find it interesting that time and time again, politicians feel the need to skirt the issue, claiming that "it's not about raising revenue." And maybe they do need to say that. It's just annoying that we as a public want public programs yet get annoyed at even common sense proposals to raise money for them.
- Brian
Nate, the problem with this is that so many drunk drivers don't get caught. It's not really a choice between "an $8,000 fine or a $20 cab fare," because the inebriated person does not expect to get caught, probably doesn't even believe he/she is not perfectly capable of driving, and generally is not behaving at as a rational economic actor at the time the decision is being made. (Not to mention that cab fare is a lot more than $20 outside of major urban centers, not to mention the difficulty of getting a ride back to one's vehicle the next day and the possible embarrassment of having to admit one's overindulgence to family and friends...)
Drunk driving is, as you noted, merely one of the many negative repercussions of excessive alcohol consumption. Unless we want to introduce a huge raft of new regulations and fines, it is probably simpler to administrate an across-the-board alcohol tax increase.
@Mark Grebner
Your analysis still isn't convincing.
It's bad form to combine an absolute statement like "it's a fact that..." with weasel-words like "something like..."
The citation you quote doesn't come close to proving your statement. Your initial statement was about all consumers; the follow-up was about those in the bottom quintile.
And even if 10% of consumers buy 80% of the alcohol, that says little or nothing about their alcohol dependency or lack thereof. It's just all too fuzzy, and you've made a quantum leap or two from the data to your conclusion.
@Mark Grebner "The reason I didn't cite a source is that I've never found one." By which you mean you made it up? If that's not what you meant, please clarify, because you are now saying that what you previously described as a "sad fact is a number you pulled out of your ass.
"That means that 10 percent of the lowest-income consumers buy more than 80 percent of the alcohol." This statement applies only to alcohol consumed by low income drinkers. The study acknowledges that this concentration pattern applies only to the less than 10% of the US population that is both poor and drinks, not to drinkers generally. Most drinkers are not poor. You made a massive framing error that the study specifically warned you about, and came to a conclusion that your (secondary) source flatly contradicts. This discussion is an object lesson in how wrong information on drinking is spread via good intentions.
The study does suggest (but certainly does not prove) that many alcoholics are impoverished by their disease. That's relevant to what we are ostensibly discussing here: tax policy. I hope we can forgo made up facts and return to the topic at heand
@Matt: I don't think I've "proved" my case - I just think I'm right. If we could edit these posts, I'd make it clearer above that my post was based on my personal guess. And that I think my guess is pretty good.
You're correct that the cite doesn't prove my guess is correct, but it's consistent with it, and not consistent with a much lower range. I use it only because I can't find solid data that directly answers the question.
Erik Nilson cited a recent Canadian study that seemed to point to "only" 53% of alcohol being consumed by the heaviest drinking 10%. That was so surprising to me that I tracked it down to see where I was going wrong. Well, I'm sure you'll agree the following doesn't "prove" that I'm right, but it ought to make you doubt that I'm wrong:
Lead author Tim Stockwell says the problem is probably a lot larger, given the fact that reported drinking in the survey only accounts for about one-third of the alcohol sold in Canada.
That is, except for the fact the study is based on self-reporting that omits 2/3 of the drinking, only 53% is consumed by people who drink "only" 4 or five drinks a day. Now, do you imagine the lying is being done by the light drinkers? If it's allocated to the abusers, we're back at 80% or 85%.
As I have said, the reason I don't cite firm numbers is that I can't find any - which is pretty interesting in itself.
@Eric Nilson: "The reason I didn't cite a source is that I've never found one." By which you mean you made it up? If that's not what you meant, please clarify.
You could say I "made it up"; but I'd say I've been doodling on the backs on envelopes for many years, trying to figure it out. My 80% guess is consistent with spreading the actual amount of alcohol consumed over a consumption curve includes some non-drinkers, a band of 50% of the population with a range of moderate consumption, and a group of 10% that drinks heavily.
I've already commented on the Canadian study you found - it's exactly the sort of scrap I've been collecting and mulling over. It seems that just as individuals are unable to admit how much they drink, as a society we're reluctant to assemble meaningful data that would force us to confront dimensions of the analogous social problem.
In response to the point that my estimate reflects volume of consumption, rather than dollars - that's exactly true. But under reasonable assumptions, it looks to me as if dollars spent would be only a few percentage points less skew than ethanol consumption.
Rather than complain about my guess, could you propose your own? Please rummage through the data, and post an estimate of the fraction of alcohol in the U.S. consumed by the heaviest drinking 10%.
"Your arguments are the exact logical equivalent of saying that since we don't catch all murderers, since heavily punishing murder makes murderers try not to get caught, since prosecutors sometimes make deals to plea down homicide cases, and since rich people can afford lawyers to aggressively fight murder charges, we should not have laws against murder."
No, I'm saying that if you make a huge federal tax contingent on the way a state or local prosecutor pleads out a driver, then inevitably the prosecutor is going to make deals with drunk drivers that benefit his boss/budget at the expense of the federal tax.
Raise taxes on alcohol if need be. But this idea is needlessly complex, potentially discriminatory, and won't work anyway.
@Matt Grebner "do you imagine the lying is being done by the light drinkers?" My understanding is that alcohol under-reporting is believed to be well-distributed across the drinking population. But regardless, I don't consider my imagination to be a source of facts.
Nonsense with footnotes is still nonsense. Nobody sensible argues against the idea that excessive alcohol consumption is destructive, expensive, and unattractive --both for the individual and for society. My original point is that speculation tarted up as fact doesn't advance the discussion. Grebner has made that point far more emphatically than I have.
The drunk driving laws have little to do with deterrence. There are many other laws that are framed in a public safety manner, but has little to do with it.
Why was the legal limit in many states dropped from 0.1 to 0.08? Simple, the number of DD arrests were dropping which leads to lower revenue and a lower amount of publicity. Police departments have to give the appearance of doing their job and when arrests drop many idiots think it is because they are no longer enforcing the law.
Ignoring the fact that Breathalyzers are inaccurate, there is a better reason to not make DD arrests based on BAC. There are people who are 100% safe at 0.08, and there are people who are not safe at 0.02. Having an arbitrary(and thus meaningless) border does nothing to protect public safety, which of course is not the ultimate goal of these laws anyway. It is like the arbitrary age of 18 for contract purposes. Some 18 year olds don't have the capacity to truly be able to decide whether to enter into a contract, some 15 year olds do though.
These made up boundaries are just the lazy persons way out.
One thing Nate's ill-thought out proposal will do is increase home-brewing(not a bad thing-mass produced American beer is total crap) and move the drinking to people's homes which cause all sorts of side-effects:
1. Puts bars out of business and lots of people out of work
2. Increases problems in neighborhoods due to an increase in home-hosted parties.
3. Does nothing to decrease drunk driving.
Let's assume that Nate's idea is implemented and actually wipes out drunk driving. Hey, that would be a great thing! However, the reduction in healthcare is relatively minuscule and now there is one less revenue stream to fund it. Now where is the lost revenue going to come from?
A small tax increase in alcohol across the board, along with legalization of marijuana should provide a significant chunk of money to pay for health care. The side effects to this is:
1.Will lower costs in other areas such as enforcement, criminal justice and the prison system-and maybe the rapists and murders will not get out early to make room for a guy who has to do 10 years for possessing a few ounces of a plant.
2. It will also help out the environment in several ways.
All the above decrease the tax burden.
*****************
Ass Rider(posting as Casual Observer today), Nate's post may be silly, but it is more intelligent than anything you have ever posted.
And even if 10% of consumers buy 80% of the alcohol, that says little or nothing about their alcohol dependency or lack thereof. It's just all too fuzzy, and you've made a quantum leap or two from the data to your conclusion.
It is not a stretch.
A vast majority of the wealth is held by a small minority of the people.
The less than 5 drinks a moderate drinker consumes in a week or so is about the same as an alcoholic or heavy drinker in an hour or two. It is not hard to see how a minority of drinkers consume a majority of alcohol.
I give up. You guys make absolutely no sense. You would rather pay more money to drink beer instead of punishing people who drive drunk.
The only conclusion I can come to is there are alot of people who drink and drive at the site today
Beavis:
A vast majority of the wealth is held by a small minority of the people..
And a vast majority of the taxes are paid by a small minority of the people.
@beavis:
It is my understanding that the states all have a legal BAC limit of 0.08 because of the efforts of MADD, and not because of the needs of localities to raise more money.
It is the same reason that the legal drinking age is uniformly 21.
You raise some very good points, but the counter argument is this: How can you test if a minor is capable of entering into a contract? Setting 18 as the legal age to do so may be lazy, but it is as good a test as anything I have heard.
Also, the law in most states is that anyone driving with a BAC over 0.08 is legally intoxicated, BUT they can also be cited with a DUI for being under 0.08 if their driving is impaired. Having a BAC of 0.06 will not automatically have you avoid a ticket, but having a BAC over 0.08 will automatically get you a ticket (and worse).
The reason this is such a silly idea is that it will do nothing to deter drunk driving. I don't think anybody currently gets in a car thinking that they're OK with the consequences if they get caught... drunk driving laws are very tough in most states (because of exactly the sort of righteous anger a lot of people have displayed on this thread). I'd much rather worry about paying off an 8k fine than the loss of my license and the potential jail/probation time I'd receive.
It might raise some money, but why not just fine, say, murderers? Or rapists? Obviously those are much worse offenders, you may as well fine them to raise income if you can't stomach raising the regular income tax.
The #1 thing that would actually reduce drunk driving, IMO, is expanded public transportation. I live in DC now, where the metro and buses allow me to drink heavily and make it home safely. When I lived in Raleigh, NC, a city with few buses, no metro, and few cabs, that was not an option, I had to either get a ride with a DD, stay at someone else's house, or just chance it driving home (which I did not ever do, but that is really what your options come down to).
Most people probably drive drunk because A) they're so drunk/stupid they don't think they're doing anything wrong, or B) because they have to get their car (and themselves) home and have crappy alternatives. Category A pretty much can't be helped. Category B can.
Harold says -
"I honestly can't even understand your post. I don't know where your quotes are coming from."
I respond -
I picked two sources to quote, as trying to write a dissertation in a comment on a blog is something no one will read and the moderator would rightly erase.
The sources I used for this example, just quickly, are repeated here even though they are listed in my comment:
http://madelynfernstrom.ivillage.com/2007/10/busting-some-common-nutrition.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2638399.stm
One doctor dispelling a bunch of "common sense" health myths about food and drink, and the BBC story that has been very often quoted by people who say "alcohol is good for you, scientists said so."
Harold says -
"Your reference to "one" scientific study suggests extreme lack of awareness of the research"
My response -
I referred to the one news story by the BBC that is so often referenced by so many people who argue that alcohol is good for you - and that one story is referencing one study.
I never once said, nor implied, that there was ever only one study done on the effects of alcohol.
That one article which is often quoted, which is of that one study, I focused on because, as usual, people fail to get the full message - as the ending of the article tells you and I already reposted.
Harold says -
"The association is totally undeniable, and has been found in every good study done, in every population, and with every type of alcoholic beverage studied.
. . .
But the facts are the facts."
My response -
The 'facts' are that some studies have shown a correlation between 'moderate' alcohol consumption (like 4 oz. per day of wine) and lower incidents of heart disease. Any scientist worth their salt will tell you that correlation != causation. There has not been defined a plausible mechanism by which alcohol could help fight heart disease - some say antioxidants, some say the alcohol itself - but there's not been a study that proves direct causation nor mechanism.
At best those studies show that the 'moderate' drinking is the level at which alcohol is safe to consume, which I think the science is pretty strong on that point. Past that point the proven detriments outweigh the theoretical positives.
You want a couple more credible sources on this -
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1296581&pageindex=1
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1296660&pageindex=1
Harold says -
"I don't even have a problem with your obvious puritanical anti-alcohol agenda."
My response -
To Mr. Ad-Hominem here, let me address how his poisoning of the well fails.
I will freely admit that I don't drink, never have, unless you count a sip or two of beer or wine when I was child that my dad would give me at home or a wedding. This fact shouldn't and doesn't affect my argument anymore than (if true) the fact that you drink should influence the truth or lack thereof in your argument.
I don't believe alcohol should be illegal - prohibition proved how bad an idea that is, plus we should not regulate how people want to harm themselves. I think marijuana should be legal and I never have and never will smoke it. I have no "get rid of alcohol" agenda here.
My agenda is Nate Silver tossed out the often stated but not scientifically proven common sense of "moderate drinking is good for you" and I felt the need to point out that it simply isn't true - if you want the health benefits of antioxidants (if there are any, still not proven) then eat strawberries or blueberries - none of the detriments of alcohol there.
As any honest, sincere medical professional will tell you - don't drink alcohol because you think it's healthy. Drink alcohol, in moderation, because you like to drink alcohol.
Fine, finagle around with alcohol and dui taxes. a good example of the economic distortion caused by generally taxation. In other words, "tax bads, not goods".
Maybe we should also tax campaign contributions, or campaign spending, too.
How about a tax upon auto accidents, based on the property damage caused.
But drunks are not necessarily rational actors. In freakonomic terms, the issue is always motivation. Sometimes motivations are not driven purely by economic considerations, sometimes there are social motivators (like why we vote); sometimes there are personal motivations that involve the "pysche" for lack of a better term.
But in the end, they are a kind of drop in the bucket and they don't fix the recession. Is there any tax that could?
Yes, Henry George following on the footsteps of the physiocrats figure it out by and large.
Tax land value and get at the root of the problem of the cycle of booms and busts and poverty and unemployment amidst advancing technology and in the presence of individuals who have massive amounts of wealth.
http://www.econlib.org/library/YPDBooks/George/grgPP1.html#Introductory
Progress and Poverty, 1879
Good first principle idea, Nate, but you're missing a little legal background that's critical.
(1) Fines are not dischargeable in bankruptcy (responding to one of the comments), and good luck in the Court of Appeals (ditto - an almost sure loser), but a court can only legally fine someone if they have a demonstrated ability to pay. An $8K fine would be totally uncollectable for a large segment of the DUI population, hence you could neither recover nor impose it, and this dramatically affects both the anticipated revenue numbers as well as the expected deterrent effects (wholly apart from the "no-detection" discounting rightly referred to in a comment).
(2) The truth is the opposite of the couple of "this could never pass" comments. We already have these fines. In California, for example, the maximum fine is $5K already, and with the mandatory enhancements (171%) added to any fine you're already looking at a$13,550 exposure -- i.e., two-thirds MORE than Nate's proposal. Some other states are similar. And the emperical experience in these states amply bears out the points I made in (1).
So good thought experiment, but the legal reality -- and thus expected results -- is much more complex than Nate assumes. (That said, could you do very marginal improvements by enhancing the minimum fine; perhaps. But this definitely ain't a cure-all or, in truth, really a radical proposal.)
Why is it beer that needs to be taxed? I suggest that hard liquor should be taxed MUCH higher than beer. Beer has much lower alcohol content; hard liquor is basically drank to get drunk. Hard liquor also might be disproportionately drank by women, and heavy drinking is known to have disproportionate costs to women. So tax hard liquor, not beer. Well tax beer, just raise the taxes moreso on hard liquor.
I was really under the impression that in just about all states, getting a DUI costs approx $10k. Maybe that includes court fees, 10% of bail and fines already. I've lived in IN, IL and CA.
One possible reason for Delaware having such a 'low' drunk driving arrest rate per billion miles traveled:
In the early 1980s, Delaware instituted an extremely aggressive program to catch drunk drivers. The problem was it was centered on the lower eastern shore - the beaches - and from Memorial Day to mid-September - vacation season and targeted at the vacationers. The state set up checkpoints at the exits of the beach bars' parking lots, in a complete drag net - want to get out? Go through the checkpoint. The police didn't care if they backed traffic up for five minutes or five hours - EVERYONE had to go through the checkpoint.
A couple of things caused Delaware to back down:
1. One of the first checkpoints set up in Rehoboth Beach was outside the largest gay beach bar in the state, and the greatest proportion of people caught were on vacation, heading to their hotel room a couple miles away, not the locals who might be driving 10 or 20 miles to home. This caused a MAJOR uproar from the hotels, as many customers told the hotel at check-out that they'd never come back to the Delaware beaches again because of the illogic of the checkpoints.
The above scenario wasn't enough to get the state to change their procedure, though, and it took:
2. Several major accidents caused by the checkpoints, and/or the backups at the checkpoints caused a major delay in the ability of emergency vehicles to respond to accidents, the state decided that the checkpoints were not worth it. The checkpoints COULD have been reconfigured to lessen the impacts, but the state didn't take that tack - they basically just abandoned them totally.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
We already do have a tax on DUIs- it's called a fine, and in California it will run you about $2000 a pop. Are people here high? Not sure how much it has made the difference, though probably some.
Given that I am not resident in the US at the moment it always feels a bit funny making comments on what taxes Americans should use BUT here is my take on this. First off I am all for servere punishments on drink drivers but I am not in favor of these being used in lieu of tax. For a start the governments attitude to those should be that you can't predict how much you will collect. How can you put them into a budget? Secondly, I am assuming that drunk driving is not a federal crime, so what right does the federal government have? That surely would be a legal minefield.
But I am in general in favor of an increase in the tax on booze in the US. This is one of the things the UK does better than the US. Alcohol taxes over here are high. And hopefully with a state healthcare system coming in, there is good reason to do it. I am not necesarily saying it will stop people drinking or make them healthier, but it would be relatively hard for those against taxes to pay for healthcare to oppose this one, save for the nanny state argument, which surely is an argument against all taxes actually.
“Doubling the tax on beer (from a dime to twenty cents a can) would reduce the assault rate by at least 5%, and maybe as much as 20%.”
Well as long as they only raise the tax on the cheap swill in cans, I'm all for it!
Woo hoo...
Hey bartender, can I get another round?
A drunk driving tax is not more Pigovian than an alcohol tax. As per the post, alcohol imposes many negative health, social, and productivity externalities independent of drunk driving. Evidence for the health-promoting benefits of moderate drinking are inconclusive and have not been separated from its correlation with self-control in other areas of life. Moreover, even a driver whose BAC is below the legal limit is more likely to have an auto accident.
Can we also have some kind of added fine for drunken violence? That would be interesting.
A vast majority of the wealth is held by a small minority of the people..
And a vast majority of the taxes are paid by a small minority of the people.
Very good Grog, you almost hit the nail on the head but careened into the wall of stupidity at the last second.
It is amusing that the fact that the minority pay the most taxes is also the minority that hold the majority of the wealth completely eludes your small brain.
You raise some very good points, but the counter argument is this: How can you test if a minor is capable of entering into a contract? Setting 18 as the legal age to do so may be lazy, but it is as good a test as anything I have heard.
Competency tests is better.
I give up. You guys make absolutely no sense. You would rather pay more money to drink beer instead of punishing people who drive drunk.
Just because you can't wrap your mind around the ideas presented doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.
Also, your straw man is very weak, no one said to not punish drunk drivers. Upping the penalties will do nothing to solve the problem.
If you want to be taken seriously take the 5 seconds it requires to understand the point people are making instead of throwing straw men around.
No you are the idiot. I drink alcohol. I am responsible enough to drink alcohol responsibly. Why should I pay taxes. Instead tax the idiots who actually harm society. Unless you are an idiot which judging by your user name suggests you are.
An overall argument for the people on this site in general. When faced with a choice between taxing stupidity (drunk driving) and taxing success (higher income through hard work and smarts). Why would anyone favor taxing success. The only conclusion is that all liberals are idiots and unsuccessful or more logically the votes that liberals need to get elected are mostly idiots and unsuccessful which of course goes hand in hand. If you make dumb decisions (being an idiot) you are unsuccessful and must then rely on government (funded by taxes) to take care of you
Apologizes for the bluntness of the post and of course its a very large stereotype but I really can't understand. Then again many of you don't mind being taxed at a higher rate. To which I say feel free to check the box on your tax forms and pay up.
I don't drink and I've known people who died and also people whose lives were changed after someone close to them died because of a drunk driver. I have three major objections to your plan though.
1. $8000 is a ridiculously high amount for a crime that is still defined in many jurisdictions as a misdemeanor. Most likely it would be found unconstitutional based on the prohibition against cruel or unusual punishment because the amount of the fine would be out of proportion to the severity of the crime as defined by statute (as I mentioned, in many states DWI by itself is a misdemeanor.)
2. There is also the federalism issue. Each state sets its own DWI laws but I assume you are wanting to collect this tax to pay for a national health care system. Can the federal government compel states to change their DWI laws and then fork over all the revenue to the feds?
3. Finally, your proposal is a very regrssive tax. To wit: I live near the Navajo reservation. Now, it is no secret that there is a huge problem involving Native Americans and alcohol. However, I will also tell you that I have worked as a tax preparer and there are sheepherders who work full time on the reservation and make $4000 per year (to support a family on, that's not much). So for them an $8000 fine would be two full years of income, while when some Hollywood actor or NFL star gets pulled over for DWI, heck they probably could pull out their wallet and write a check for $8000 and not sweat it.
For that reason I'd prefer myself to fund it (as we fund medicare) through payroll taxes, or just come out and say you want to increase income taxes, starting with an end to the Bush tax cuts.
Mishka said...
"This proposal is radical, I do agree. However, that $8000 fine is more of a punishment to someone with my (all-but-zero) income than it is for someone pulling in 6 figures. Thus, a fixed fine does not produce the same punishment. Is the US legal system not based on equal punishment for equal crime?"
Equal in the eyes of the law is the key distinction. The legal system works so well because it is viewed as a neutral 3rd party for those who come before it. The argument is a dangerous one on the logic that flows from it. It would argue that high income criminals should get less jail time for the same crime as a low income criminal because their time is more valuable and incarceration would hit them disproportionatly. There are a million ways you could go with it which is why our legal system doesn't entertain the notion.
Also, many people are forgetting the other social aspects of a DUI conviction. In particular high income or high profile DUI offenders face a strong possibility of losing their job or other revenue streams over the long-term. Every job application from that point on will have to disclose the conviction. I don't buy that someone with a higher income can just cut the check and there are no other repercusions to their actions (to use celebrities or sports stars as the proxy for this behavior is to focus on a small sliver of those in this group).
Exactly though, Chris... the real deterrent, such as it is, is not in the fine but the jail time/social consequences/loss of license. As others have agreed, a deterrent only works on people who are thinking. Penalties for DUIs are quite steep already, it's bizarre that people on this thread think that there will actually be a reduction as a result of increased fines.
As for the "regressive" nature of this tax, it surely is. The legal system doesn't "tax" people with fines... in fact relatively few crimes are subject to fines, they're used as the most mild penalty (it wouldn't be very appropriate to imprison someone for speeding). Making a super-high fine your penalty of choice does hurt some people more than others, and that's why it's not generally done (and part of why this is a bad idea). As a side note, which is really not important to my point, a rich person's lost income due to prison is 100% (or less, if they get capital gains), which is the same as a poor person who cannot work. It is also more likely that the poor person's family is hurt (and hurt worse) than the rich person's by their imprisonment.
Novamiddleman:
Obviously where most on this board would disagree with you is your assumption that everyone who "succeeds" does it off of hard work and intelligence and not a sizeable portion of luck.
Besides that, how much of the government's money do you actually think goes to paying for "stupid people?" Social security and medicare pay for people too old to work, not too stupid. Surely children are not "too stupid" to care for themselves, or the disabled, or veterans. Welfare and unemployment have been very temporary for over fifteen years; it's not like "stupid people" can just sit there collecting on it. So really, show me, how much of a tax cut do you think you can get out of not paying for "stupid people" any more?
As for taxation, I don't support taxing your beer or taxing drunk driving, because I don't think it's actually going to stimulate anything besides some (small) income. If we want that, the right thing to do is raise taxes, because we're trying to benefit society as a whole, so society as a whole should pay. It's easy to say that drunk drivers (or, as I've said, murderers and rapists) should pay for everything... but there's a reason we don't make them slaves for life if they've committed a crime. They're supposed to be able to come back from their crimes, and rejoin society. Driving them into bankruptcy and releasing them into a world where they cannot get work is really not going to help anyone.
An overall argument for the people on this site in general. When faced with a choice between taxing stupidity (drunk driving) and taxing success (higher income through hard work and smarts). Why would anyone favor taxing success. The only conclusion is that all liberals are idiots and unsuccessful or more logically the votes that liberals need to get elected are mostly idiots and unsuccessful which of course goes hand in hand. If you make dumb decisions (being an idiot) you are unsuccessful and must then rely on government (funded by taxes) to take care of you.
The only conclusion is that you are a fucking moron.
You think Bush got where is through smarts? Really? Most "sucessful" people are not intelligent. Many are very stupid, they just have the lack the morals and ethics required to become wealthy.
Besides which, success and wealth have little to do with each other. I know people making under $100K a year that have contributed more to the betterment of mankind and the planet then some sleazy huckster with little skill like a Bill Gates
What is stupid is you think the choice is between income tax and a $8000 fine for drunk driving. That is the very definition of stupid.
8th amendment much? I know how we can fix all of our problems, let's just fine everyone who commits a crime an extra million dollars, then we can pay for anything we want. Deterrent crime prevention generally doesn't work. Just ask death penalty states. Drunk driving already has extremely serious punishments attached to it, adding eight thousand dollars of additional penalties just seems like a pretty clear case of excessive fines imposed. Seems pretty unconstitutional to me.
I am igonring the troll Beavis
Peter,
A serious question. Who decides when society has benefited enough that higher taxes are not needed. Thats the fundamental disagreement. I say government is fine the size it is. If anything it should be reduced.
I was rear-ended by a drunk driver a couple of years ago, totalling my beatup but perfectly functioning old Toyota. A lot of people (myself among them) choose not pursue litigation, and it does seem that here ought to be financial consequences for this. Sounds like a good idea to me.
Nova:
I suppose you're unlikely to ever see this comment, but I'll answer nonetheless.
Who decides when society has benefited enough? The people, is the obvious answer. Ignoring arguments about how well the democracy works, hopefully it is up to the popular will what the government needs to do (in short, how far towards socialism we should go).
If you think the government has gone far enough, that's fine. In my opinion, there is a certain standard of living which everyone is entitled to, no matter what: a certain basic degree of food, shelter, clothing, health care, education. It's my opinion that this is not enough to stop people from working and be lazy, which is the real issue with Communism. Without private property, what incentive is there to work?
So the government should provide those things to everyone, and working can provide everything you want more of (a non-crappy house, nice food, nice clothes, etc. etc.). As it stands, the big thing that's missing for many people is health care. Perhaps the government doesn't need to charge too much more for the services it provides... at the moment, though, the deficits are to the point that I think taxes probably should be going up as soon as the economy recovers. That's the way it's supposed to work, anyway... cut taxes in downturns, raise them in upswings. But somewhere along the way it became popular for conservatives (not necessarily saying you) to suggest that the government needs to cut taxes no matter what.
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
菲
梵,
Post a Comment