Back when I used to do high school debate, there were all sorts of esoteric arguments related to the notion of positive and negative rights. The distinction, to simplify the matter greatly, is that a positive right is something that permits you to act a certain way -- something granted to you -- whereas a negative right is a claim to noninterference -- something that precludes action from being taken against you, either by government or by other people. You'll most commonly hear the distinction in association with libertarianism, as libertarians tend to regard positive rights as impure manifestations of government fiat power, whereas negative rights exist intrinsically outside of government, which in turn has a duty to protect them.
I never found this framing terribly satisfying as a matter of moral philosophy -- there are too many things which fall somewhere in between the two poles. But as a political matter, the distinction is potentially quite interesting.
Take for example the issue of gay marriage. When gay marriage is polled, it is almost always framed as a positive right, as in: "should the government permit Adam and Steve to get married?". I wouldn't necessarily say I find this framing biased -- since gay marriage is only permitted in six out of the 50 states and only came about in those states very recently, it is probably the more natural, plain-English way to ask the question.
But there is a different way to frame the question that is no less fair, and flips the issue on its head. Namely: "should the government be allowed to prohibit Adam and Steve from getting married?". This is closer to the logic embodied by the court decisions in Iowa, California, Massachusetts, and other states. Those courts didn't create gay marriage; they argued, rather, that it was already protected by their respective state constitutions.
And it turns out that if you frame a polling question in this particular way, as Gallup and USA Today did recently, you get a very different set of responses. Take a look at what happens:
When USA Today asks whether gay marriage is a private decision, or rather whether government has the right to pass laws which regulate it, 63 percent say it's a private decision. This contrasts significantly with all other polling on gay marriage. The highest level of support gay marriage has received in the more traditional, positive-rights framing is 49 percent, from a ABC/Washington Post poll in late April. The average support is closer to about 41-42 percent. And indeed, this same survey organization, Gallup, last month released a poll that put the number of Americans approving of gay marriage at 40 percent.
So this USA Today poll is really something quite different -- nearly two-thirds of Americans say that gay marriage is "strictly a private decision". Now, it can and will be objected that USA Today's wording is a little tricky: they don't ask whether the government has the right to prohibit gay marriage, but rather, whether government has the right to prohibit or allow
gay marriage.
But take a look at the other items that USA Today asked about. Some 97 percent of respondents say that marriage between two people of different religions is strictly a private decision. Perhaps some small fraction of that 97 percent think that the government should have nothing to do with marriage at all -- there should be no state-sanctioned marriage, period. It's fairly safe to assume, however, that the overwhelming majority of those 97 percent were interpreting the question to mean that the government ought not pass a law prohibiting marriage between two people of different religions. Marriage between two people of the same gender isn't at 97 percent support -- but it's at 63 percent, and that's a hell of a lot better than its done in other polls.
The better argument against my interpretation of this poll is that it's contradicted by other evidence. Namely, last November in California, a state whose highest court had indeed ruled that gay marriage was protected by the state's constitution, some 52 percent of the electorate decided that they knew better, and that Adam and Steve would have to catch the next available flight to Burlington, Vermont.
But even though gay marriage had already become -- however briefly -- the law of the land in California, that wasn't how the debate unfolded on Proposition 8. Instead, look at what Equality California said on its website at the time:Every Californian should have the choice to marry the person they love. It’s a personal and fundamental freedom guaranteed by the California Constitution.
Emphasis mine. True, Equality California mentioned that gay marriage had already been established under the state's constitution. The problem is that Proposition 8 wasn't an argument over how to interpret the state constitution -- it was an argument about whether or not to amend the constitution to render interpretation unnecessary.
What if Equality California had instead said this:California's government should not have the right to interfere with the decision of two loving adults to get married. It’s a personal and fundamental freedom protected by the California Constitution.
You see the distinction? Equality California was still stuck in the positive rights paradigm. Gay marriage was something given to California by the state Supreme Court in its benevolent wisdom, not an intrinsic (negative) right for which the government had a duty of noninterference.
Would changing these few little words have made a difference last November? Probably not. But advocates for same-sex marriage can do a better job of framing their argument. Generally speaking, appeals to government noninterference are fairly popular; people don't like government telling them what they do and they don't have the right to do. Posit equal treatment under the law as the default -- how dare the government make a law that abridges this right on the basis of something as trivial as sexual orientation.
6.11.2009
How To Get 63% of Americans to Support Gay Marriage. (Maybe.)
by Nate Silver @ 9:38 AM...see also california, gay rights, libertarians, messaging, political philosophy
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197 comments
FIRST COMMENT!
Gay marriage does not make sense. A marriage is defined as between a man and a woman, so a gay form makes no sense.
It should be banned completely.
YES, government should be allowed to prohibit them from getting married.
We need to start preserving morals in this country or the country is gonna go down the sewer.
The only reason this is an issue anyway is because of money issues. If you really "love" someone, no one is stopping you from being with them.
Just do not expect us to reward you financially for it.
What about the people who think that the government has the right to pass whatever law it pleases regarding marriage. It's just that they shouldn't pass a law in this case. Lets call it the anti-libertarian argument.
The government has the right to pass all sorts of dumb laws. That doesn't mean they should.
It's hard to make the case that this is a government noninterference issue, because civil marriage is a government decree.
I was acquainted with a same-sex couple who were married in Pennsylvania, by the Quaker meeting they belonged to, over ten years ago. While the state didn't recognize their union as valid, it didn't try to "interfere". As a gay marriage advocate, I would not feel honest claiming that this is a government interference issue. Civil marriage is fundamentally a "positive right".
Tanystropheus, as a fellow supporter of gay marriage, I think you make a good point about the positive right thing with civil marriage. However, the counter-argument there is that the state did in fact "interfere" by giving heterosexual couples greater benefits/treatment than your friends and other same-sex couples. This brings up 14th Amendment issues on the equal protection front.
And Nate, this line of negative rights and anti-government-infringement would seem to be right up the alley of the current Republican talking points, except you rarely see Republicans extend these principles to social issues. Is it just fear of the social conservative "base" or what? I feel like there would be a lot of popularity in the younger generation for this kind of fiscally-conservative-socially-liberal message, as long as it stops short of all out libertarianism. Whatsay?
I think that if gays want to be recognized as a legal union then the government needs to recognize that, however, me believing strongly in separation of church and state, that a church should not have to give them their blessing or whatever
"Gay marriage does not make sense. A marriage is defined as between a man and a woman, so a gay form makes no sense." - Champion88
I just wanted to point out, this could be in a logical fallacy text book. Great example of begging the question.
This is a government non-interference issue, or the equivalent, because it is a discrimination issue.
If civil marriage is a "positive right", then how can you justify denying it on the basis of discrimination?
Discrimination is government interference. When the government says "all taxpayers pay for this water fountain, but a certain ethnic group is banned from using it", the water fountain may be a "positive right" but the subsequent discrimination is government interference.
Champion88 -
Thank you for your stupidity. Your own words are stronger condemnation of your bigotry than anything I could write.
"And Nate, this line of negative rights and anti-government-infringement would seem to be right up the alley of the current Republican talking points, except you rarely see Republicans extend these principles to social issues. Is it just fear of the social conservative "base" or what? I feel like there would be a lot of popularity in the younger generation for this kind of fiscally-conservative-socially-liberal message, as long as it stops short of all out libertarianism. Whatsay?"
The younger generation is not pro gay rights, but is anti-doing anything that requires effort.
And since the gay people are the ones who always have to yell to everyone that they are gay, it makes it seem like everyone supports it.
I find the 4% who feel the government should prohibit marriage based on race scary.
If we subtract out the 2% who think all marriage should be prohibited[assuming that is what those who answered yes based on religion] that still leaves 2% blatant racists who are willing to go on record as such.
With the analysis of the distinction between positive and negative rights, I have to disagree with the interpretation of them.
Positive rights, rather than being granted by the government, place the emphasis on the freedom of the individual, with the freedom to act in a certain way becoming paramount.
Negative rights, on the other hand, emphasize what one cannot do rather than what one is able to do. The emphasis is on others rather than oneself.
Positive rights are empowering to the individual, whereas negative rights are intent on holding the individual down and showing them what they are not able to do.
Gay marriage makes perfect sense. Love makes a family, not 1 penis and 1 vagina. It's love that spurs people to marry and love that keeps them together. GLBT folk just want the same responsibilities to care for each other that straight people have. We just want to be able to visit our partners in the hospital, to do our taxes together, and pay the mortgage together. How can anyone object to people wanting to love and care for one another?
"Thank you for your stupidity. Your own words are stronger condemnation of your bigotry than anything I could write."
If wanting America to have morals makes me a bigot, then fine I am a bigot.
That is better than being a scumbag.
Bob -
me believing strongly in separation of church and state, that a church should not have to give them their blessing or whatevertext
Of course private religious ceremonies are based on the precepts of that religion.
Can't you see that the exact opposite of what you suggest is happening? A fair number of religions do perform gay adult marriages - Quakers, Unitarian-Universalists, and others. It is the government which is discriminating against these religious marriages.
"Gay marriage makes perfect sense. Love makes a family, not 1 penis and 1 vagina. It's love that spurs people to marry and love that keeps them together. GLBT folk just want the same responsibilities to care for each other that straight people have. We just want to be able to visit our partners in the hospital, to do our taxes together, and pay the mortgage together. How can anyone object to people wanting to love and care for one another?"
A family is a mom and a dad, not 2 dads.
You can see each other in the hospital anyway during the everyone visiting hours, which is only like 2 hours later than the closest kin hours.
And the other stuff is about money, which has nothing to do with love.
"Can't you see that the exact opposite of what you suggest is happening? A fair number of religions do perform gay adult marriages - Quakers, Unitarian-Universalists, and others. It is the government which is discriminating against these religious marriages."
Those are pretty tiny religions. None of the major religions endorse this.
champion88 -
If wanting America to have morals makes me a bigot, then fine I am a bigot.text
No, that's not why you're a bigot, even though "America" can't have morals, only people can have morals.
You're a bigot because you support official discrimination.
You're also un-American and authoritarian, because you think that your personal "morals" should be imposed on everyone else. (Usually people who claim to think this actually don't live according to the "morals" they claim, either.)
"A family is a mom and a dad, not 2 dads."
By that logic, when a father is killed in a car crash, you no longer have a family.
By that logic, a family that has to go through a divorce is no longer a family. Are you going to tell half the families in America that just because they had a divorce, they aren't families?
What about intersexed folk? Does this mean that they can't be in a family at all?
What about King David and King Solomon? Both of these men had many, many wives and concubines. Surely there are good families in the Bible.
And for the record, partners are often denied visitation rights in hospitals. As for the stuff about money, what else is the federal government interested in?
"No, that's not why you're a bigot, even though "America" can't have morals, only people can have morals.
You're a bigot because you support official discrimination.
You're also un-American and authoritarian, because you think that your personal "morals" should be imposed on everyone else. (Usually people who claim to think this actually don't live according to the "morals" they claim, either.)"
Well obviously I meant the people of America.
Those are universal morals. We have to hammer out an official set of morals or society will descend into chaos.
The terrorists at 9/11 thought they were acting morally too.
Champion88 - "the younger generation is not pro gay rights?" Please look at any survey data available and then tell me that the younger generation is not generally supportive (or at WORST, more supportive than older demographics) of gay marriage. As Dylan said, the times they are a changin'. And how could you be as cold as to dismiss hospital visiting hours and financial benefits? I bet you'd be a lot more passionate if the government started to interfere with your rights. We all want "America to have morals," but my morals are that people should do as they wish as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. I certainly don't support imposing a set of values on other peoples' lives.
"By that logic, when a father is killed in a car crash, you no longer have a family."
You are correct.
"By that logic, a family that has to go through a divorce is no longer a family. Are you going to tell half the families in America that just because they had a divorce, they aren't families?"
Yes, we will tell half the families in America that they are not families if they have a divorce.
Most people that divorce do not exactly care for the person they just divorced, so I am sure most would not consider themselves still families either.
"What about intersexed folk? Does this mean that they can't be in a family at all?"
Who the hell are these people?
"What about King David and King Solomon? Both of these men had many, many wives and concubines. Surely there are good families in the Bible."
If you had many wives, you did not have a real family.
"And for the record, partners are often denied visitation rights in hospitals. As for the stuff about money, what else is the federal government interested in?"
The only people denied visitation rights are the ones in which the patient does not want to see the other person, which would occur whether the two people are married or not.
"Please look at any survey data available and then tell me that the younger generation is not generally supportive (or at WORST, more supportive than older demographics) of gay marriage. As Dylan said, the times they are a changin'. And how could you be as cold as to dismiss hospital visiting hours and financial benefits? I bet you'd be a lot more passionate if the government started to interfere with your rights. We all want "America to have morals," but my morals are that people should do as they wish as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. I certainly don't support imposing a set of values on other peoples' lives."
The younger generation is always more liberal. They will modify as they grow older and a new generation will be labelled the most liberal ever until they are replaced, etc.
I am not dismissing hosipital visiting hours. The hours for next of kin are like 10-10, whereas they are 11-9 or 12-8 for everyone else. Not a huge difference.
If anything, that is a claim that should be changed for the hospitals themselves, if that is such a big issue.
champion88 -
The terrorists at 9/11 thought they were acting morally too.text
And they were wrong, because killing innocent people is immoral.
And you are wrong, in my opinion, because official discrimination is immoral.
We have to hammer out an official set of morals or society will descend into chaos.
No, we need official laws or society will descend into chaos. Morals are an individual choice.
For example, I support your right to personally oppose gay marriage, personally be unfriendly to gay people, personally belong to a religion that rejects gay marriage, etc. That's not how I live, but that's your business.
What I oppose is official discrimination - denial of civil marriage rights on the basis of orientation.
Marriage, at least in this nation, is not a religious issue. You can get married in ANY church you desire. But without a marriage license, you're not married.
Marriage, at least in this nation, is strictly a secular affair. Religious-based arguments are simply moot
I do support granting same-sex marriage in the sense of a "positive right." There is no intrinsic right in this instance. The arguments that the negative-right-sense-of-granting-same-sex-marriage folks can just as well be made about extending marriage to three people or to people and horses or, for that matter, the right to consume feces in a restaurant. Although homosexuality may very well have a genetic basis, its expression is a behavior, and societies have the intrinsic right to regulate behavior. That is in a sense the definition of a society. The argument that same-sex marriage is guaranteed in the Constitution is ludicrous. However, I do think it's time for society to recognize and validate it.
Champion88, your bigotry knows no boundaries. If one parent is killed, the other and children still make a family. If parents are divorced, they along with their children still make a family. At the risk of repeating myself, it's love that makes a family.
As for intersexed folk, these are individuals born with genetic abnormalities that often give them characteristics of the opposite or both sexes. And for some reason, in your twisted mind, they should be prohibited from making a family with the person they love.
As for Kings David and Solomon, if you are so willing to dismiss the foundations of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, then you certainly won't respond to the love and acceptance found in the New Testament as well. If you, in your ugly bigotry cannot find comfort in even this, you are truly alone and depraved.
And for the record, only close family members have automatic visitation rights in hospitals when the patient is unconscious or unable to express their wishes.
"Marriage, at least in this nation, is not a religious issue. You can get married in ANY church you desire. But without a marriage license, you're not married.
Marriage, at least in this nation, is strictly a secular affair. Religious-based arguments are simply moot"
That is the misunderstanding that we need to correct. America was founded on the basis of no discrimination of various sects of Christianity.
People did not want to argue over Protestantism VS Catholicism VS Anglicanism, etc., but they were still all Christians.
We just called it freedom of religion, because nothing else existed at the time.
As a result, we should be basing our laws on religious morals.
"And you are wrong, in my opinion, because official discrimination is immoral."
Official discrimination of immoral things is not immoral.
"No, we need official laws or society will descend into chaos. Morals are an individual choice."
Laws should be based on morals.
"Amendment 1
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
The Constitution nor any amendment mention Christianity.
A family is a mom and a dad, not 2 dads.
True. Except for families with two dads. Or two moms. Or only one parent. Or no parents. Often times, a grandparent or aunt or uncle is involved.
Gay marriage does not make sense.
Not to you. It makes a lot of sense to gay people. Pretending that gay people do not exist will not make them disappear. Gay people have always existed and deserve the same rights as non-gays (positive or negative).
"Champion88, your bigotry knows no boundaries. If one parent is killed, the other and children still make a family. If parents are divorced, they along with their children still make a family. At the risk of repeating myself, it's love that makes a family."
They are half of a family, not a full one. A divorced family obviously does not love each other. Why the hell do you think they got divorced for?
"As for intersexed folk, these are individuals born with genetic abnormalities that often give them characteristics of the opposite or both sexes. And for some reason, in your twisted mind, they should be prohibited from making a family with the person they love."
We need to fix these people then, into whatever gender they are closer to. If we have the technology for sex changes, I am sure we can fix these types of conditions.
"As for Kings David and Solomon, if you are so willing to dismiss the foundations of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, then you certainly won't respond to the love and acceptance found in the New Testament as well. If you, in your ugly bigotry cannot find comfort in even this, you are truly alone and depraved."
The foundations are built on the good things these men did, not their mistakes.
"And for the record, only close family members have automatic visitation rights in hospitals when the patient is unconscious or unable to express their wishes."
Then, this thing is something you want to reform within the hospitals themselves.
""Amendment 1
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
The Constitution nor any amendment mention Christianity."
No other religions existed in America at the time, outside of different sects of Christinaity.
I am sure if others existed, they would have been sure to explicitly state this.
At one level, champion is right, in that all states (in this case, both the nation-state and our regional divisions we call "states") have police power: the authority to regulate their citizens health, safety and morals. Thus, the United States and California have the right inherent in their sovereignty to do what they wish, including basing their decisions on what is moral on religion or on some people's interpretations of religion.
Where it gets A LOT messier is when we start considering what a "right" is. If rights are natural, do they trump sovereign rights? What if sovereignty rights are based on natural rights (as they arguably are in the United States)?
I think that relying on the principle of majority rule to determine rights is VERY dangerous and quite silly. Essentially, slavery (and later, Jim Crow) was based on majority rule determining that a majority had few to no rights. Once that becomes possible, it's not hard to make who gets the franchise a majority-determined right. Apartheid isn't quite this, but its persistence for a long time was related to this problem.
All this said, this is mostly just about angels dancing on the head of a pin. Gay marriage is currently disfavored by the American people, and this will probably last for another decade or so. Where Champion is dead wrong is that the young are not more pro-gay rights. Any survey with an age breakdown proves it. (Apapthy would involve not answering the question or not voting, and there is absolutely no logical reason to assume that only youth who don't like gay marriage don't answer the survey. Moreover, do you REALLY want to base your argument on "this is wrong because the majority doesn't like this, even if its close and a a good portion of those who say they don't like it really don't care about it?")
Again, though, arguing about whether it is right or not is a bit beside the point. I think that people reacting like Champion illustrate why Nate's self-criticism of his argument is likely right. Namely, when push comes to shove, hate is winning at the polls. For now. Give it a decade.
"True. Except for families with two dads. Or two moms. Or only one parent. Or no parents. Often times, a grandparent or aunt or uncle is involved.
Gay marriage does not make sense.
Not to you. It makes a lot of sense to gay people. Pretending that gay people do not exist will not make them disappear. Gay people have always existed and deserve the same rights as non-gays (positive or negative)."
They can continue to exist, but that does not mean we have to give these immoral people rights.
"What about intersexed folk? Does this mean that they can't be in a family at all?"
Who the hell are these people?
I don't think champion88 should be treated as a troll. But I'm not sure how to respond. Obviously he could know who intersexed people are if he wanted to.
Seriously, stepping back from champion88 for a moment, what is the right way to respond to people who simply do not want to understand? Berating them isn't going to change their perspectives. They actively resist education, because it's more important to them to think the way they always have than it is to see the world accurately.
I think that isolating such people only makes it less likely that they will lower their personal barriers enough to come to a new understanding.
Interesting concept
I think numbers would be higher for abortion rights if it was phased the same way. Basically "Should the government regulate what you can do to your body"
Politics doesn't make sense two examples
On gay marriage and abortion the democrats are much more libertarian. But then look at gun control and property rights and its the republicans who are more libertarian. For the republicans its the social conservatives but why are democrats for gun-control and against property rights???
The younger generation is pro gay marriage and pro-life. Explain that one.
"They are half of a family, not a full one. A divorced family obviously does not love each other. Why the hell do you think they got divorced for?"
So if a family goes through two divorces, does that make them 1/4 a family or no family at all?
"We need to fix these people then, into whatever gender they are closer to. If we have the technology for sex changes, I am sure we can fix these types of conditions."
Many of them do have some form of surgery, sometimes affirming a gender different from the one they were raised in. If these people choose to live with someone is not intersexed, does that make them a family? What if they also live their life as a the same gender? What about transsexuals? If they are wearing a skirt, are they only a family if their partner isn't?
"hen, this thing is something you want to reform within the hospitals themselves."
No, I want protection from bigots. I want the legal right to visit my partner in hospital, to help pay the mortgage with her, and to fully share custody of our children.
@nova_middle_man:
I think that the distinction between Democrats and Republicans with regards to who is libertarian when is that Democrats want to avoid governmental interference with actual people and abstract individual rights, whereas for Republicans they want a lack of governmental action with regards to property and other material goods, including guns.
As to the whole younger generation is anti-choice thing, I can't see that as being true. The polling could be wrong or maybe I'm just sheltered. The other issue is that people who are younger than Roe have no idea what the environment was before abortion was legal everywhere, and would probably be of a different opinion if they saw what things would turn into.
I personally feel that the government should just get out of the way of the whole marraige thing anywas...Why are there different standards for different classes of people? Why should I have a different set of rules to my life because I choose to be single? It's all so silly, the government needs to just get out of the way and allow people to live any choices the make on equal footing. Now in response to Champion, your quote about people getting more conservative with age may have been true a long time back, now, people like me get more liberal because we realize that people like you are loons who we'd never associate with
champion88 claims
"No other religions existed in America at the time, outside of different sects of Christinaity.
I am sure if others existed, they would have been sure to explicitly state this."
Um.... no. At least 4 synagogues were in existence in the newly created US (Shearith Israel in NY, Touro in RI, Mikveh Israel in Philadelphia, and one in Richmond VA, off the top of my head.... there may have been a couple more, in Savannah and Charleston). And there were lots of Native Americans with non-Christian beliefs. Ditto for the many African Americans in the 13 former colonies. Plus, many of the 'founding fathers' were barely (if at all) Christian. And the Unitarians and Universalists were starting to organize.
Evidence: Jefferson's editing of the New Testament, lots of writings by Jefferson and others, lack of references to God in early federal documents, Washington's letter to Touro synagogue in RI, the treaty with the Barbary pirates and lots more that those who paid attention in history classes know about.
As an aside, on the morals issue: there's good evidence that 25% or more brides in the 1780s were pregnant at the time of marriage ;-)
"Seriously, stepping back from champion88 for a moment, what is the right way to respond to people who simply do not want to understand?"
You are right, mathrec. I'll probably never reach champion88. But to be honest, I don't feel compelled to respond to his comments because I feel the need to change his personal opinion. While he may be unreachable, others may not be. I can't just stand idle while GLBT folk are denied such a fundamental right.
I know that online comment forums like this quite easily descend into name calling, trolling, and the like. An open forum, unfortunately, lacks the civility that past formats seemed to have. To the extent that I've been party to that, I apologize for this and the extent to which I cannot beating the horse until I am quite sure of its death.
Champion88: Why, in your view, is homosexual behavior immoral?
"They can continue to exist, but that does not mean we have to give these immoral people rights."
Whether someone is moral or immoral implies choice. Gays and lesbians do not have a choice. In fact, a long history of scientific testing has confirmed two facts:
1. You cannot change someone's sexual orientation. There's no amount of therapy, treatment, or conditioning that will change who a person is attracted to. You can't do it with psychotherapy, electric shocks, or drugs. You can't do it with religious teachings, dogma, or ritual.
2. People are born gay. If you believe in a god, then consider your sexual orientation a gift from that god. Scientifically, a mixture of genes and the hormones present in the womb seem to determine both the sex you appear to be and who you are attracted to.
If you are born gay, straight, lesbian, intersexed, transsexual, or bisexual, you did not make a choice to be so. It's wrong to call someone immoral for what they cannot change and were born as.
Great post, Nate. Up to the high standards you set for this site. (Sadly not all of your participants are up to those standards.)
The anti Prop. 8 campaign was the worst I have ever seen, followed closely by the ineptitude of the anti Prop. 2 (egg farming) campaign.
The anti Prop. 8 people decided never to mention that they were talking about gay marriage. And so their campaign was distorted and vague, shying away frm the issue. Had they framed it as you have they would have had a chance.
While the damage was done, it can be undone and those who are pro-marriage (how's that for stealing the language in the debate?) have learned a lesson. If only they will be smart enough to apply it in 2010 or 2012, without shying away from the fact that gay people fall in love, want to get married -- and have rights -- just like straight people.
[wv: ablyi - what OJ didn't have.]
Champion says "No other religions existed in America at the time, outside of different sects of Christinaity.
I am sure if others existed, they would have been sure to explicitly state this."
The earliest Jews settled in North America in 1654 (New Amsterdam). Touro Synagogue dates back to 1763.
Peter N,
I think the polling in the younger generation is reflecting two separate influences. First, many younger people are "pro-life personally, but pro-choice politically." A question that just asks "Are you pro-life?" will get ambiguous responses from many of these folks. Re-phrased as a negative rights issue, "Do you think the government should prohibit women from getting abortions?" would probably get closer to their true attitudes. I'm sure the professional survey-writers can improve upon my wording, but you get the gist.
And secondly, I think you are correct about people who have grown up with no experience of what it was like before abortions were legal. Not only do they lack the context of how bad the "back-alley" situation was... But the difference between being able to CHOOSE to keep your baby or being REQUIRED to keep it is profound, and many young "pro-lifers" voice their views in terms of choice, without even realizing it. Even Palin -- "My daughter chose to keep her baby" -- phrases it that way.
The problem with the entire debate is that both sides are right. The people arguing against gay marriage say that the government should not be declaring the homosexual lifestyle as legitimate. They're 100% right. The people arguing in favor of gay marriage say that it's unfair for the government to declare some relationships as legitimate while denying that designation to other relationships. They too are 100% correct.
The problem is that the government used a term - marriage - that has both a legal and a social-religious meaning. Rectify that problem and you fix the issue for all but the most stringent on both sides of the debate. Pass a law changing the legal status currently known as marriage to a term such as civil union. Make a civil union contain all the current marriage rights but be open to any two adults that are not in another civil union. Clean up the law while you're at it and remove anything which would not belong in a contract between individuals.
You would then have a strictly civil status being bestowed by the government. They would be completely out of the business of licensing relationships. In fact, civil unions would not even have to be between people that would have been 'marrying' in the old sense of the word. It would be a status that could be used for tax benefits, for visitation rights, etc. and could be viewed as a beneficial relationship for any close friends who happen to both be unattached to other civil unions. While some might see that as a problem I would say it's the opposite - that development would mean that the government would finally be out of the business of passing a value judgment on people's lifestyles - at least on this one issue.
Meanwhile, on the social-religious end of things 'marriage' would be available to whomever felt like performing it. Churches could set their own rules for who they would marry. If you wanted your best friend to perform the ceremony then no problem. It simply wouldn't matter anymore because we've now separated the legal status (civil union) from the social-religious status (marriage). Anyone that wanted to say "I'm married" could say it and they would all have the same backing to that claim from the government - none.
A troll totally hijacked the conversation. This is about polling and how to frame an argument.
Nate, great post. As insightful as your election coverage, and potentially more valuable.
I hope the gay rights and pro-choice activists read and take heed.
champion88 says:
"They can continue to exist, but that does not mean we have to give these immoral people rights.
So there we have it.It's not just gay marriage that is immoral but gay people are immoral!
A rabid religiously-based homophobe revealed.
(How generous of him to allow their continued existence;no gas chambers for him.):
Two points: One related the other not at all.
As far as gay marriage goes many who are ambivalent about the issue are no doubt getting fed up with the ham-handed tactics that see a woman like Miss CA, Carrie Prejean, vilified and hounded from her crown all because she dared to express the traditional view. This is all the more astounding when you consider that her position on Gay Marriage is the same as Obama's who virtually every Gay person would gladly suck . . . . well you know what I mean. Just ask Larry Sinclair or hold a séance and contact the late, lamented Donald Young.
The hypocrisy of the Prez and his supporters is unreal. Worse, I think a backlash is coming. Shove what you want down your own throats, but don’t try to railroad the nation into supporting a relationship as "marriage" that goes against the grain of 1000s of years of human history. A little more deliberate consideration is in order.
Now on the unrelated point: it was reported today that the number of unemployed continuing to file for claims rose to 6.8 million, the highest on record dating to 1967. Of course, to listen to the mainstream media you would think it was “morning again in America”!
I mean "only" 601,000 people filed for new claims when something like 615,000 was expected. Yipeee!!!
The point, of course is that the government-sponsored media can no longer be trusted to report the news for what it is, but is now firmly in the camp of the Obama spin machine, working overtime to see him succeed.
No such comity was accorded George Bush or any of his GOP predecessors.
Think back to how there was virtually no mention of how successful the Surge strategy in Iraq was until one day we all woke up and it was accepted wisdom that it had succeeded. Acknowledged and turn the page. No reporting on its progress as it unfolded, no suggestion as it developed that perhaps the Bush administration had gotten something right. Finally, when the deaths were down and stayed down for months the media was forced to acknowledge it - -largely because it was a central theme of McCain's campaign and they needed to neutralize the issue by making it a non-issue.
So it is with Obama's recession. There are no stories about the misery of the unemployed, the poor the starving, the millions of children who cry themselves to sleep for want of food, shelter and clothing. In Obama’s America none of that exists. Such things exist only when the GOP is in charge. This despite the fact that Obama is presiding over the highest unemployment in 30 years!
Think about it. Think about the complicity of the media and how they are trying to dupe us all and manipulate us.
And for what? To benefit a shadowy figure whose own birthright is in doubt (what hospital exactly was he born in?), who is hell bent on destroying Israel, weakening the US and leading us down a failed Socialist path?
You thought those Tea Parties were bogus? That, my friends, was the real grass roots and those roots are getting deeper and growing stronger and multiplying and will eventually shoot up and take back over this blessed land from the freaks who have invaded and taken it over.
That's the way I see it!
petekent01 (on twitter)
First time commenter. I think there is another argument which is being ignored.
If marriage wasn't important to heterosexuals nobody would opt-in to the system to pay the marriage tax. This tax discourages marriage, especially among couples with two similar wage earners. Still people get married - must be important.
The same would hold true for same sex couples. They actually have a financial incentive to accept a separate but equal civil union stance, all the benefits of marriage without the tax. They are not interested because of course separate but equal doesn't work, even if you get a tax break.
Why don't people see that a federal law to allow same-sex marriage would increase tax revenues. I would wager that most same sex couples would have a relatively large marriage tax burden, since my impression is that they are more likely to have similar incomes. We could be talking about significant revenue here. I don't follow the debate all that close, but this fact seems to be ignored.
Jeremy - thank you. I was wondering if anyone would bother to ask the most obvious question.
I would like to hear a coherent explanation as to why marriages, other than between a man and woman, are wrong or immoral. Is it the relationship itself that is immoral or the sanctioning of it? Is it related to the potential effects on the children of the couple, or the ability to have children. Is it not the marriage itself, but the love or sexual attraction between the two people that is immoral, and marriage shouldn't be allowed when it is a recognition of these feelings?
If you believe that gay marriage is immoral, is your view based on a universal definition of morality, or could this view be subjective - in other words, should a gay person who desires to get married also view his desire as an immoral desire?
I'm not feigning ignorance to troll for a response - I just honestly don't see the intrinsic wrongness of this behavior. None of the suggestions I've made make much sense to me, but I'm trying to encourage responses by making it obvious that I'm not getting it.
I wish someone would ask the question, "Do you think the government should recognize heterosexual marriages".
Bob makes a good point -- the ultimate compromise for me would be for the governt to get out the marriage busn entirely.
petekent01 (on twitter)
Champion88 said
'A family is a mom and a dad, not 2 dads.'
--------------------
That surely is an argument against gay adoption, which I believe is legal at least in some states (?) but its not an argument that has much to do with gay marriage. And to me thats the way you frame the debate. Its about love and equality before the law. I remain convinced that the judicial route is the route to go down. No need to legislate if SCOTUS can make sure that the law applies equally across the US, to all citizens. Now obviously some might be concerned about how the court will rule, but some on the right have been making positive noises on gay marriage recently, so I am convinced that a correctly framed case and argument will settle the gay marriage issue.
"I wish someone would ask the question, 'Do you think the government should recognize heterosexual marriages'."
As I posted earlier, they absolutely should not recognize nor should they deny any marriages. The government needs to be out of the business of declaring lifestyles as legitimate or illegitimate.
"They actively resist education, because it's more important to them to think the way they always have than it is to see the world accurately."
I never resist education. I just did not know what you were referring to.
Another stoopid comment from cut-and-paste PeteKent, adding to nothing except PeteKent's inflated ego.
PeteKent - go follow yourself on twitter.
"So if a family goes through two divorces, does that make them 1/4 a family or no family at all?"
No the family is still half a family because the kid is going to end up living with 1 of the 2 parents.
Any people that come after that, do not count at all.
And honestly, if you are having 2+ divorces, you probably do not know how to love.
"Many of them do have some form of surgery, sometimes affirming a gender different from the one they were raised in. If these people choose to live with someone is not intersexed, does that make them a family? What if they also live their life as a the same gender? What about transsexuals? If they are wearing a skirt, are they only a family if their partner isn't?"
You should be changed completely to the gender in which you have more chemicals in your body. So if you have 60% male and 40% female chemicals, you should be changed totally to a male.
Transsexuals do not count as people.
"No, I want protection from bigots. I want the legal right to visit my partner in hospital, to help pay the mortgage with her, and to fully share custody of our children."
If you want to complain about visting rights, that is something you take up with the hospitals!
Anything money-related has no place in the marriage discussion.
If you have no morals in your life, how could you raise a child?
"I personally feel that the government should just get out of the way of the whole marraige thing anywas...Why are there different standards for different classes of people? Why should I have a different set of rules to my life because I choose to be single? It's all so silly, the government needs to just get out of the way and allow people to live any choices the make on equal footing. Now in response to Champion, your quote about people getting more conservative with age may have been true a long time back, now, people like me get more liberal because we realize that people like you are loons who we'd never associate with"
It is still true. Even if you want to consider me too conservative for you, you would still form a "moderates" party, which is still more conservative than the liberals.
So you say gays shouldn't be allowed to marry because they're immoral.
Does that mean when adultery is discovered in a heterosexual marriage, it's then null & void?
And why exactly is being gay immoral?
"Um.... no. At least 4 synagogues were in existence in the newly created US (Shearith Israel in NY, Touro in RI, Mikveh Israel in Philadelphia, and one in Richmond VA, off the top of my head.... there may have been a couple more, in Savannah and Charleston). And there were lots of Native Americans with non-Christian beliefs. Ditto for the many African Americans in the 13 former colonies. Plus, many of the 'founding fathers' were barely (if at all) Christian. And the Unitarians and Universalists were starting to organize."
And since when did the founders consider the Native Americans or African Americans to have rights? They did not count these entities as people, so their beliefs would never have entered the conversation.
"Champion88: Why, in your view, is homosexual behavior immoral?"
Eh...it is a rather long description. I will type it up for you once I respond to all the other comments.
But that is part of the reason why civil unions have decent support.
Because their explanation is shorter and people's attention spans always seem to be so short.
"If you are born gay, straight, lesbian, intersexed, transsexual, or bisexual, you did not make a choice to be so. It's wrong to call someone immoral for what they cannot change and were born as."
Regardless, they could still stop themselves from acting on those impulses.
Kletomaniacs are born with a constant urge to steal, so should we allow them too, because they are born that way?
"While the damage was done, it can be undone and those who are pro-marriage (how's that for stealing the language in the debate?) have learned a lesson. If only they will be smart enough to apply it in 2010 or 2012, without shying away from the fact that gay people fall in love, want to get married -- and have rights -- just like straight people."
They have rights. But there should also be financial sanctions against it to discourage this type of immoral behavior.
And that means no tax breaks, deductions, etc. for them.
Edit: Also, you are not stealing the language. All you will do is throw more people onto our side.
"I am sure if others existed, they would have been sure to explicitly state this."
The earliest Jews settled in North America in 1654 (New Amsterdam). Touro Synagogue dates back to 1763."
Regardless, all of the monotheistic religions are opposed to civil unions.
"And secondly, I think you are correct about people who have grown up with no experience of what it was like before abortions were legal. Not only do they lack the context of how bad the "back-alley" situation was... But the difference between being able to CHOOSE to keep your baby or being REQUIRED to keep it is profound, and many young "pro-lifers" voice their views in terms of choice, without even realizing it. Even Palin -- "My daughter chose to keep her baby" -- phrases it that way."
If you are immoral enough to have an abortion, then you deserve to have your life put in danger.
You clearly have no problem killing an innocent baby. Why should you be treated with any respect?
"You would then have a strictly civil status being bestowed by the government. They would be completely out of the business of licensing relationships. In fact, civil unions would not even have to be between people that would have been 'marrying' in the old sense of the word. It would be a status that could be used for tax benefits, for visitation rights, etc. and could be viewed as a beneficial relationship for any close friends who happen to both be unattached to other civil unions. While some might see that as a problem I would say it's the opposite - that development would mean that the government would finally be out of the business of passing a value judgment on people's lifestyles - at least on this one issue."
This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard? Marrying for tax breaks? Why not just have some "friends with benefits" while you are at it?
We need the government to pass value judgments on people's lifestyles. Otherwise, our moral value will drop lower and lower each genereation and the new generations will not even see what is wrong with their behaviors.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
So, please before you start casting for your little morality play, read the book.
"So there we have it.It's not just gay marriage that is immoral but gay people are immoral!
Well obviously people that practice immoral behaviors are immoral.
Why is that such a far leap for you?
"First time commenter. I think there is another argument which is being ignored.
If marriage wasn't important to heterosexuals nobody would opt-in to the system to pay the marriage tax. This tax discourages marriage, especially among couples with two similar wage earners. Still people get married - must be important.
The same would hold true for same sex couples. They actually have a financial incentive to accept a separate but equal civil union stance, all the benefits of marriage without the tax. They are not interested because of course separate but equal doesn't work, even if you get a tax break.
Why don't people see that a federal law to allow same-sex marriage would increase tax revenues. I would wager that most same sex couples would have a relatively large marriage tax burden, since my impression is that they are more likely to have similar incomes. We could be talking about significant revenue here. I don't follow the debate all that close, but this fact seems to be ignored."
In your tax example for married couples, they pay the marriage tax, but get lots of tax deductions later on, so it is still beneficial in the end.
Separate but equal is fine, as long as they are actually equal. It did not work with whites and blacks, because it was clear the black facilities were in significantly worse shape than the white facilities.
That was not really relevant to this discussion, but I just wanted to clarify.
I do not care about money. I would rather have our taxes raised than allow civil unions.
"That surely is an argument against gay adoption, which I believe is legal at least in some states (?) but its not an argument that has much to do with gay marriage. And to me thats the way you frame the debate. Its about love and equality before the law."
The purpose of marriage is to eventually have a family and we do not need to raise more screwed-up kids, by having them be raised by gay parents.
"So, please before you start casting for your little morality play, read the book."
I am perfectly fine on having everyone judge me as long as I can do the same to them.
The only way society will improve in general is if we evaluate which actions are moral/immoral and the only way we can do that is by judging each other.
M@-
There is no such thing as a "marriage tax" anymore.It was done away with a few years ago.
A couple earning the same amount will pay the same tax when filing jointly as they would have if they had filed as single people.
""You would then have a strictly civil status being bestowed by the government. They would be completely out of the business of licensing relationships. In fact, civil unions would not even have to be between people that would have been 'marrying' in the old sense of the word. It would be a status that could be used for tax benefits, for visitation rights, etc. and could be viewed as a beneficial relationship for any close friends who happen to both be unattached to other civil unions. While some might see that as a problem I would say it's the opposite - that development would mean that the government would finally be out of the business of passing a value judgment on people's lifestyles - at least on this one issue."
This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard? Marrying for tax breaks? Why not just have some "friends with benefits" while you are at it?
We need the government to pass value judgments on people's lifestyles. Otherwise, our moral value will drop lower and lower each genereation and the new generations will not even see what is wrong with their behaviors."
No, you need the government to enforce your morals on other people. Unfortunately for you we live in a country that's supposed to be free of that type of tyranny.
Champion88, every time you open your mouth (post a comment), it becomes more and more obvious that you are either a pathetic , EVIL piece of shit, or one hell of a troll. Either way, FOAD.
Forgive me for taking champion88 troll bait...
"No the family is still half a family because the kid is going to end up living with 1 of the 2 parents.
Any people that come after that, do not count at all. "
People that come after that are just as human as you. To say that they do no count is ugly, discriminatory, and immoral.
"Transsexuals do not count as people."
We stray far from topic here. However, I would, for the entire trans community, like to say that you are wrong. Transsexuals are people just like anyone else.
"And since when did the founders consider the Native Americans or African Americans to have rights? They did not count these entities as people, so their beliefs would never have entered the conversation."
The issue is not whether the those that wrote the Constitution thought this way but whether we should. Clearly, every human being is created equal. It is unbelievable that you cannot seem to accept this.
"Regardless, they could still stop themselves from acting on those impulses.
Kletomaniacs are born with a constant urge to steal, so should we allow them too, because they are born that way?"
While kleptomania may have a genetic component homosexuality is not a mental disorder. you have confused the two.
"Regardless, all of the monotheistic religions are opposed to civil unions."
Wrong again. Unitarian Universalists, who are generally considered monotheistic, are largely accepting of civil unions. My sister-in-law, who is about to be ordained in the Church of England, believes that GLBT should be able to have at least a civil union if not marriage.
"We need the government to pass value judgments on people's lifestyles. Otherwise, our moral value will drop lower and lower each genereation and the new generations will not even see what is wrong with their behaviors."
The government is not your personal church. Please stop treating it as such.
"The purpose of marriage is to eventually have a family and we do not need to raise more screwed-up kids, by having them be raised by gay parents."
This narrow definition excludes a huge proportion of the population. People may not find out until they are married that they are infertile. Should they simply go their separate ways? You ignore the fundamental issue you proved above. People have a compulsion to marry, regardless of financial implication, because of love.
As for screwing up kids, I am quite happily going through the approval process for adoption with my partner. Our social work, county council, and many others have all expressed their support.
Can we please just ignore champion88? The rules of logic clearly do not apply to his arguments. Thanks!
@ Mark Ludwick
Homophobes usually base their hatred on the two following passages from scripture (Old Testament):
(1) Leviticus 18:22-"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
(2) Leviticus 20.13-"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
Usually,the more religious a person is the more homophobic he is.Of course,the homophobia is often sugarcoated with the "hate the sin,love the sinner" nonsense.
A friend of mine said something that I believe makes an incredible quote:
"Inflicting pain and hurt is never right no matter what moral compass you hide behind."
I can not and do not understand the fear, ignorance and hatred, whether through bigotry or not, that people have towards gay, lesbian, bisexual and/or transgender people. I think it is sick, disgusting and horrible, and I say to myself, "How dare these people inflict pain on me and cowardly hide behind their corrupt moral compass."
I tell you what. I am proud to love EVERYONE.
Sean
Chamption88 said: "Regardless, they could still stop themselves from acting on those impulses... Kletomaniacs are born with a constant urge to steal, so should we allow them too, because they are born that way? "
The political Religious Right seems to be bent on the repathologizing of homosexuality. In 1973, the Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association voted to delete homosexuality as a mental disorder from the seventh printing of the second edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM-II. Thus, Chamption88's position on sin and morality is nothing more than outdated, "backward thinking."
Unquestionably, there is fierce disagreement about the sin issue, but what conservative Christians like Chamption88 don't understand is that we live in a country where church and State are separated.
This ties into Nate's original argument that while Chamption88 is entitled to his religious beliefs, these beliefs are not enforceable by our secular government.
You state that "a positive right is something that permits you to act a certain way -- something granted to you." And later "libertarians tend to regard positive rights as impure manifestations of government fiat power."
Meanwhile, Peter N states "Positive rights, rather than being granted by the government, place the emphasis on the freedom of the individual, with the freedom to act in a certain way becoming paramount..."
Both interpretations are inconsistent with my understanding of positive rights (as someone who teaches courses on human rights), which are "positive" in the sense of placing an affirmative obligation on government (or potentially others) to act, as compared to negative rights, which you (but not Peter N) correctly characterize as requiring government to refrain from acting. These two types are commonly associated with so-called first generation civil and political rights, which generally have a negative orientation (i.e., require non-interference), and second generation social, economic and cultural rights, which generally have a positive orientation (i.e., entail entitlements to government action, such as a provision of benefits, albeit often with the caveat of being within the available financial resources). Some argue, however, that the distinction can become somewhat fuzzy in so far as the government must do certain things (e.g., maintain police and courts in order to prevent violations of the law and hold offenders accountable) that are necessary to uphold ostensibly "negative" rights, while the things encompassed by "positive" rights are also strengthened by various forms of non-interference by government (especially where cultural rights are concerned).
When it comes to the survey questions on gay marriage, the wording you discuss basically captures the appropriate distinction, to the extent that permitting gay marriage involves a "positive" action on the part of government (i.e., registering the marriage) whereas statutes or administrative decisions that prohibit gay marriage could be viewed as violating a "negative" right barring government actions that deny equal protection or interfere in certain private matters (which are among the arguments raised in favor of allowing gay marriage).
Libertarians are not keen on positive rights because they favor limited government, ideally stripped down to only the basics of providing law and order and national security-- in other words, the institutional framework minimally required to guarantee negative rights. For them, upholding positive rights (e.g., government provision of welfare benefits, education and health care) is an imposition on individual freedom and self-determination because it requires taxation and policies that extract and transfer resources to other individuals, rather than for fundamental public goods (leaving aside counter-arguments as to how welfare benefits, education and health care might serve the common good).
Sean, you are a dope and your friend is an idiot.
"Inflicting pain and hurt is never right no matter what moral compass you hide behind."
How about child molesters, rapists and abortion doctors? Would the same absolute apply to them?
petekent01 (on twitter)
Make your life more pleasant by blocking trolls like PeteKent,:
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I found a survey that shows that the radical, bigoted views of people like Chamption88 are now thankfully in a distant minority.
WASHINGTON - June 30 - Anti-gay comments made by Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott earlier this month do not reflect the majority opinion in this country, says a new poll released today by the Human Rights Campaign.
The survey, conducted by Lake Snell Perry, asked 931 registered voters: Trent Lott, the Republican majority leader, recently made a statement that said homosexuality is a sin and compared it to alcoholism and kleptomania. Others say that homosexuality is inherent and not a choice, and that all Americans should be treated equally and fairly by lawmakers. Which of these statements comes closer to your own opinion? 24% said homosexuality is a sin and a disease; 55% said that homosexuality is inherent and that all Americans should be treated fairly; 14% said neither or both; 4% said don't know; and 3% refused to answer.
These numbers cut across party lines with 62% of Democrats, 57% of independents and 41% of Republicans saying that homosexuality is inherent and gay Americans should be treated equally. 18% of Democrats, 21% of independents, and 35% of Republicans saying that homosexuality is a sin.
My dog and I love each other dearly, can we get married?
Here’s another interesting survey-- this one surveyed Protestant clergy last month. According to this, 46% of Protestant clergy support same sex marriage. Does this mean Protestant clergy is one-half immoral? ; )
SURVEY SHOWS MAINLINE PROTESTANT CLERGY SUPPORT
BROAD RIGHTS FOR GAY AND LESBIAN AMERICANS
http://www.publicreligion.org/research/?id=208
I love this framing of the question, since the "default" option is "don't do anything". It's very much a libertarian paternalist thing, like Nudge advocates.
The other nice thing about this is that it forces libertarian leaning conservatives to reevaluate the question based solely on how it is framed. And honestly, they're the one that we're most likely to be able to get support from in the short term.
And anything that drives a wedge between the Libertarian and Christian Fundamentalist wings of the Republican Party has my vote too.
The institution of marriage has been around for thousands of years, much longer that this nation and its laws.
The crux of the gay marriage debate comes down to this: a small group of people want to redefine an institution that stands outside of the government, an institution that has been defined the same way by different cultures and religions for thousands of years: one man and one woman. Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Christian and even early pagan culture came to the same conclusion.
Now, gay marriage advocates think this is wrong. And they want the state to rectify this.
They cry discrimination, but there really is no discrimination. A gay man can marry a woman. He just can't marry another man.
But remember this: if the state can redefine the institution of marriage, what's stopping it from redefining personal property, free will or any other freedom or rights we have.
Gays say they can't pay a mortgage together. Hogwash. T
They can't visit each other in a hospital. Lobby the hospital to change its rules. Don't lobby a nation to redefine the institution of marriage.
They want to "fully share custody" of their partner's children. Great. Adopt them. Of course, you run into the issue of the lesbian couple who got divorced in Florida. The irony of that case was rich: one partner using heterosexual divorce laws to stick it to the other. Oops.
@ Pan
The institution of marriage has been around for thousands of years, much longer that this nation and its laws.
So was slavery.TRhe bible never said a word against it.
How dare our goverment,and other countries,abolish it.
Champ88 is obviously trolling, guys. Give. It. Up. There's is no level of discourse here that can help either side see the other's point of view. Either you believe gay people deserve the same rights, or you don't.
@ DermottTrellis.
Yes, 54% to be precise.
So was slavery.TRhe bible never said a word against it.
Quit perpetuating this myth! Your reply is misleading and distorts the Bible's purpose as it relates to slavery. For anyone interested, read here for a better explanation and try to ignore the trollish throw-away line from Opus.
Does the Bible condone slavery?
"Champ88 is obviously trolling, guys. Give. It. Up. There's is no level of discourse here that can help either side see the other's point of view. Either you believe gay people deserve the same rights, or you don't."
Agreed on the trolling comment. However I disagree on the idea that it's an either you support equal rights or you don't. As Nate's post pointed out there are different ways of framing this issue. I think the higher support for civil unions for same sex couples points to the fact that most people want equal rights for everyone - they just don't want the government to legitimize behavior that they themselves feel is immoral.
This is directly related to the framing issue. Marriage should only be a religious and social structure...the government never should have gotten involved with it in the first place. By all means allow people to enter into civil contracts that have some or all of the current rights afforded by marriage but don't have the government declaring who is moral and who is not. Because remember - elections have consequences. You don't want the government coming after you and the choices you make in life just because the majority doesn't like the way you live your life.
This post is missing an obvious point. Among all the ways of shading the question, juxtaposing gay marriage alongside interracial and interreligious marriages is the most biased. The courts and public have already decided that discrimination according to those categories (race, religion)are violations of equal protection. The contested question is whether homosexuality is a similar case or not. The question that juxtaposed them assumes, or suggests, that it is. An opponent of gay marriage could cook a different poll by designing a different set of parallel cases: do you approve of polyamory? intergenerational sexual relation? homosexuality? Of course, these are misleading too. Homosexuality is not pedophilia. But nor are homosexuals a minority just like racial minorities. Anologies are powerfully suggestive, and those embedded in this poll have clearly inflated the support for gay marriage beyond its actual scope.
@ juvanya
My dog and I love each other dearly,can we get married?
Yes,if you and your dog are opposite sexes you can get married in the Ozarks.If not,you will have to wait until same-sex marriage is legal down there.
As you are homopbobic,this makes for a tough decision making process for you.Maybe you will see the light and support same-sex marriage.(I would pray for you if I prayed.)
@Casual Observer said...
""
Quit perpetuating this myth! Your reply is misleading and distorts the Bible's purpose as it relates to slavery.
""
I read that linked document. There are three take-aways:
1: "The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether."
So, where the Bible uses and entire book of the OT to list out the laws, it does not make slavery illegal. In fact, it codifies it.
2: "The Bible most definitely does condemn race-based slavery."
It condemns race-based slavery, but not other forms of slavery.
From these two, it is clear that the Bible did not find (non-race-based) slavery as an evil or as something to be eliminated from society.
The third take-away:
"Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society."
Emphasis mine.
Transsexuals do not count as people.
You are truly evil. I bet you think you are a devout "christian" don't you.
You do not count as a person, since you lack those traits that make a human worthwhile.
"Transsexuals do not count as people."
This is one of the most shocking and irreligious things I've ever seen. I'm dumbfounded at the blasphemy of it. It's heresy.
Please ignore beavis. He is the most bitter and spiteful troll that lurks around 538. He is also an imbecile. Note his bad grammar/spelling and poorly constructed sentences.
This is a government non-interference issue, or the equivalent, because it is a discrimination issue.
This is anything but a discrimination issue. No law in any state makes distinctions between gays and straights. All the law says is that a MAN can only marry a WOMAN, and vice versa. Gay men and straight men have exactly the same rights, in that they can only marry women.
Marriage is also a positive right (if it is to be considered a right at all; it's nowhere in the Constitution). It's like a driver's license: the government is granting one the privileges of a married person. Again, gay men have the exact same access to these privileges that straight men do--they all have to be married to a woman.
Each state needs to determine whether they believe marriage is between a man and a woman, or between two people. The policy will follow after that is settled.
If the litigation about Prop 8 ever makes it to the SCOTUS, I believe it has 5 votes to strike it down the same way it struck down Amendment 2 in Colorado back in 1996.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romer_v_Evans
Justice Kennedy, writing for the 6-3 majority, wrote this:
"Its sheer breadth is so discontinuous with the reasons offered for it that the amendment seems inexplicable by anything but animus toward the class that it affects; it lacks a rational relationship to legitimate state interests."
And:
"[Amendment 2] is at once too narrow and too broad. It identifies persons by a single trait and then denies them protection across the board. The resulting disqualification of a class of persons from the right to seek specific protection from the law is unprecedented in our jurisprudence."
Prop 8 does the same thing and it should be struck down the same way Amendment 2 was struck down.
And in response to some other items raised by others....
I am an atheist. I do not believe in god. I do not believe in the bible, the best piece of fiction ever written. How dare anyone try to impose anything in that purely religious book onto those like me who don't believe in it. The same for your so-called morality.
Marriage is to create a family and children? What about those of us who can't have or don't want to have children? I don't want to have them, so should I be prohibited from marrying? And what abour elderly people who wish to marry (or remarry after a spouse dies)? They aren't going to start a family, so should they be prohibited from marrying?
Not too long ago, marriage was "defined" as between people of the same race. Then came Loving v. Virginia and the wonderful Warren court struck interracial marriage bans down in 1967.
It is the duty of the courts to strike down measures which trample on individual rights. It is checks and balances, not "judicial activism" or "legislating from the bench". The courts are simply stopping the majority from squelching the rights of the minority. Without that, we would have Jim Crow laws squelching the rights of black people.
People are born homosexual. Who would ever wake up one day and "decide" to be homosexual and subject oneself to scorn and disapproval from the rest of society?
Normally, I support the starvation of trolls, but I think this needs some comment.
1. I have never understood why anyone brags about having the first comment. "Woohoo! Look at me, I managed to react the fastest with the least possible thought and preparation." Sad, really, if that's all someone has in their life.
2. In my experience most trolls (not Champ, necessarily, I don't know him or her and won't therefore pass judgments), are not just difficult people, they are people with real problems. When I was in school (Public Administration, with a heavy dash of Sociology) I had a political statistics class and the teacher pointed out that in any survey some of the people who respond will be neither a Democrat nor a Republican. They will be a friend of the Martian Space Party and wearing a tin foil hat. Their answers will be non-sensical or so extreme as to be able to be considered false data. Severe depression, inebriation, schizophrenia, lack of sleep, a really really bad day, sometimes simple sarcasm, it doesn't matter. Some folks just operate outside of consensus reality. This is not a tiny number, either. It often runs in the 1-3% range in a survey, though in the overall population it's more like 6%. (The worst of the worst, the nice men in the white coats don't let answer the phone.)
Now, let me repeat... I have no reason to think this is Champion. He has extreme views, but so do other people. Lot's of people, if you believe some surveys.
My point is that some folks just cannot be usefully engaged. So, pleasepleaseplease... Do Not Feed The Trolls!
I don't say DNFTT because they can't be convinced, but because trolls have a way of taking over a conversation and steering it in the direction they want it to go. Usually that's a direction that has reality testing just the other side of a Terry Gilliam film.
This could have been a thoughtful discussion about polling methodology and how the framing of issues influences public opinion. This, btw, would have been a discussion people on both sides of the issue of gay rights might have gained a lot from. Those who are pro-gay marriage might have gained some interesting ideas for strategy, and the anti-gay marriage folks could have learned the weaknesses in their argument, the better to defend them. Political wonks could waste more of our lives analyzing survey question composition. We might even have gotten into a decent discussion of whether how the question is asked can be changed in the foreseeable future, because it means survey firms having to asterisk future surveys.
Instead we have allowed Champ to lead us off into discussions of half-families, the inhuman-ness of intersex folks and the bedtime behavior of Biblical monarchs.
Trolls ruin discussions. Don't let them. DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.
The sanity you save may be your own.
I think any good arguer needs to be aware of when the person he is arguing with is either too stupid, too belligerent, or too intractable to argue with reason. There is no point in arguing with someone who believes that, at the time of the writing of the Constitution, there were no non-Christians in the United States. People who don't believe in facts aren't going to respond to reason. Frankly, there is no reason to argue with anyone who gets a joy out of being "first!" in a message board comment section.
Lets all focus on the reasonable people, and let the others die off, progressively lonelier and more ridiculed as they grow more disconnected from the world. That's what eventually happened to the flat-earthers, and it will eventually happen to all fools.
I am an atheist. I do not believe in god. I do not believe in the bible, the best piece of fiction ever written. How dare anyone try to impose anything in that purely religious book onto those like me who don't believe in it. The same for your so-called morality.
Good for you. Too bad many pagan and polytheist societies also came to the conclusion that marriage was an institution between one man and one woman.
How about this: you don't foist your views on the religious, who outnumber you atheists by a large margin.
Marriage is to create a family and children? What about those of us who can't have or don't want to have children? I don't want to have them, so should I be prohibited from marrying? And what abour elderly people who wish to marry (or remarry after a spouse dies)? They aren't going to start a family, so should they be prohibited from marrying?
Marriage is between a man and a woman. What they do with the institution after that is up to them.
If you want to get married, then marry a woman. If you want to spend your life with a man, then do so. Just don't call it a marriage. Or worse, don't use the courts to change the definition of marriage to suit your selfish desires.
Silver talked about positive rights versus negative rights. Some pretty lofty concepts. What he and others are really talking about is a good old-fashioned bait-and-switch.
Marriage, in any dictionary or religious tome, is defined as the union of one man and one woman.
Silver and the rest would lead you to believe that it is private decision between two people. This is far from the truth. If the people allow this con, then it opens up a whole barrel of monkeys. Not only in terms of marriage, but any other social institution is now free game for anyone to tear down via redefinition.
to champion88: Would you really like that being called a scumbag? If you think love has nothing to do with money and that you could just visit your loved one in the hospital during visiting hours and have no say intheir care... then why don't you get legally divorced (if you're even married) and try to go on about your business like you did while married? Afterall, nothing would be any different, right? Now,do you really think you're so important that YOUR "morals" are the only ones that matter? You said "small religions" which would be the minority religions... you mean like the Jews who were the minority or "small religion" in Germany during Hitler's reign? Do you really want to be compared to Hitler? Your "morals" are dictatorship and historically immoral. But, I'm sure North Korea and Cuba are always looking for "good" citizens.
"How about this: you don't foist your views on the religious, who outnumber you atheists by a large margin.'
But it's all right for you believers to foist your views on us? I wonder if you miss the old days when heretics and unbelieving "blasphemers" were treated to an auto de fe followed by a public burning at the stake.
I think the question should be: "should gay people continue to marry people of the opposite sex?" It has always been leagal for gay people to marry, as long as they marry the wrong person for the wrong reason. Should we continue this policy of requiring gays who desire a family structure to marry people of the opposite sex, like the New Jersy governor, Larry Craig, and countless others? Is this good social policy?
Perhaps so, since it may well be the more traditional gay/straight marriages that keeps in our collective gene pool this special difference. Where would we be without our gay men and women contributing their unique and special perspectives?
But beside the risk it would pose in reducing our gay population, should public policy require these unfortunate and often less-than-honest marriages for gay men and women? I question that!
Reading the hate-crazed, homophobic, would-be authoritarian comments of Pan, Chumpian88, Pete Kent, CO, and so on filled me with an intense and cold rage. Especially when you try to spin your perversions and bigotry as "Christian morality". You're cowards and bullies, looking for someone you think is in a weak position, so that you can dare to attack them.
And I'm not gay. I'm a fairly moderate heterosexual middle aged white guy. I'm not very PC at all. In fact, I happen to enjoy certain activities that are dominated by heterosexual males, and I ignore casual, ignorant stupidity all the time. Probably indulge in it from time to time.
I don't know if you assholes understand how much you are angering and turning off regular people.
I guess I shouldn't try to stop you. If you want to keep making yourselves more and more isolated and unpopular, go ahead.
It is very telling that you came up with this analogy because this is exactly how the Supreme Court saw the issue when it came up 42 years ago in their unanimous decision in Loving v. Virginia. The Court ruled that big-government simply had no legal authority to regulate consensual marriage. In fact, the Virginia Court decision that the Supreme Court overturned put the argument for the ban on interracial marriage in religious grounds. The Virginia Court even claimed that they knew the mind of God and were enforcing His tenets.
Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.
That is precisely what was said by the Virginia Court and that same sort of argument is being used by Christian-supremacists today in this issue: that it is the principal role of government to act as the enforcement body of the Church. There are few concepts that are as fundamentally anti-American as that...that government not only should but must have the power to dictate and enforce religious dogma against the will of its citizens. That kind of authoritarian government control is neither necessary nor welcome in a free society.
The argument that was made in Loving in 1967 is exactly the same argument that is being made today, "What is the proper role of government in regulating consensual marriage?" The Supreme Court ruled unanimously what that role is: none whatever.
Especially when you try to spin your perversions and bigotry as "Christian morality".
Hey, leave me out of this, asshole. I haven't commented at all about the homosexuality issue and especially not from a "Christian morality" angle. Go ahead and re-read all of the comments and see what you find.
The only time I even mentioned the Bible was in defense of a comment made by Opus that was misleading about the Bible's take on slavery.
You're just all to eager to call someone a fundie asshat bat-shit crazy loon that you don't even stop to see where exactly you're hurling all of that disgusting fecal matter and whether or not such an insult is justified.
You're dead on Lord Calvert. The problem is that the legislature didn't follow through on that principle. They kept the government in the marriage business despite calls to get the government out of that business...they just grudgingly relaxed their standards. Until that problem is fixed there's going to be constant strife on this issue as one side or the other will have a government that's telling them that their moral views are wrong.
Bob: I think that if gays want to be recognized as a legal union then the government needs to recognize that, however, me believing strongly in separation of church and state, that a church should not have to give them their blessing or whatever
So you should have no problem supporting gay marriage, because this is entirely a civil issue. Churches won't have to marry same-sex couples, just as the Catholics don't have to marry divorced people. One can be married in the eyes of the state and law and not married under Catholic or Jewish law. "Separation of church and state" is a red herring; they're already separated.
@ Scott
This is anything but a discrimination issue. No law in any state makes distinctions between gays and straights. All the law says is that a MAN can only marry a WOMAN, and vice versa. Gay men and straight men have exactly the same rights, in that they can only marry women.
Don't give me that crap. That's akin to providing a single restroom with only urinals and saying everyone has a right to use it. Just because it's available doesn't mean it works for everyone.
Pan, marriage at one time was defined as between two people of the same race. Now, that is not true, thanks to Loving v. Virginia (thank you, Lord Calvert, for posting that famous but awful quote from the Va. judge). Tell me, Pan, were the Lovings selfish for redefining marriage so they could live in Virginia without facing prosecution for being an interracially married couple?
Many marriages are civil only and have nothing to do with religion. My cousin, who is not Asian, married an Asian woman. They were married at the catering hall by a judge. They were just as married as anyone married in a church or temple.
I find it interesting that nobody has any truly legal reason as to why same-sex marriage should be banned. All we hear are the religious reasons (thereby foisting the religious views of some onto others), the "it has always been that way" reason (which is bogus because of Loving v. Virginia), and "it is *defined by a dictionary* as a man and a woman", as if Webster's Dictionary is now a lawmaking tool?
I submit that we atheists trying to foist our "atheism" onto the religious is exactly what our secular government is supposed to when it enacts laws. That is, it is not supposed to favor one religious view over another, nor is it to favor any religious view over a non-religious view. If our legislators would actually operate that correct way, we would not have any of these debates.
Ignoring the moronic yet inevitable kerfuffle in the comments, i wanted to point out that Nate's point is at the root of EQCA's failure in effectively combatting Prop 8. All of their ads echoed the softness in their language; they had a chance to truly make it a stand on rights but instead it became more of a "won't you puh-LEAZE be nice to us???" effort.
(champion88: your bigotry makes the baby Jesus cry)
It seems same-sex marriage is playing a part in the brouhaha over control of the New York State Senate.
Pedro Espada,one of the two Democratic defectors who voted for a Republican as Majority Leader and was rewarded by being named Senate President,favors the same-sex marriage bill already approved by the State Assembly.
The New York Times reports "Mr. Espada said he planned to call a vote on a bill that would legalize same-sex marriage, perhaps as early as next week, as a way to entice Democrats to participate":
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/nyregion/12albany.html?hp
Wouldn't it be great if this situation led to Democratic "yes" voters showing up and the "no" voters not,allowing the same-sex marriage bill to pass?
I can dream,can't I?
Are y'all GLAD about Bruno?
http://tinyurl.com/nc9js7
I suspect this will be a hoot!
BTW Opus is a total Stalinist -- seeking not debate but to silence the opposition. This is the kind of thinking that Obama encourages. I warn you that this man (of whom no one can name the hospital he was born in) will take away your freedoms far more completely than you ever thought Bush did1
petekent01 (on twitter)
Interesting and instructive analysis, Nate. Thank you.
There is some public opinion research literature on the more general phenomenon of the different answers you get with "forbid vs. allow" wording on rights matters. Work from a few decades back by Howard Schuman in particular is relevant to this issue.
@Pan:
"The institution of marriage has been around for thousands of years, much longer that this nation and its laws."
This is certainly correct. However...
"The crux of the gay marriage debate comes down to this: a small group of people want to redefine an institution that stands outside of the government, an institution that has been defined the same way by different cultures and religions for thousands of years: one man and one woman. Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Christian and even early pagan culture came to the same conclusion."
You really don't know any history at all, do you?
Islam permits up to 4 wives. Judaism only went monogamous fairly recently in its history. Various Christian sects still practice polygyny. I don't know Hinduism well, but I'd be shocked if it had a long history of teaching strict monogamy for all.
Plural marriage, especially by the powerful, has been the rule throughout human history.
Hmm, positive and negative rights. That sounds like Lincoln Douglas debate to me. I did that as well, back in my HS days.
"Plural marriage, especially by the powerful, has been the rule throughout human history."
And plural marriage cannot be denied if gay marriage becomes normative. There is no logical distinction to be made between polygamy and gay marriage -- the argument in favor of each is that tradition (in our culture) is irrelevant -- and in fact, as you rightly point out, polygamy actually *is* traditional in other cultures, whereas gay marriage is not traditional in any culture. Once gay marriage becomes normative, polygamy follows quickly on its heels, and a major case on that is already working its way through the Canadian legal system.
The slopes are getting pretty slippery.
There is no slippery slope, Novaseeker.
There is no genetic trait which makes people born to want to marry multiple people. There is no finding by the APA (American Psychiatric Association) which declares polygamy as a sexual orientation or something similar to that.
Polygamy is clearly a lifestyle choice, not some inborn trait which the individual has no control over.
The state has an interest in not allowing polygamy. There would be legal issues involving property rights, inheritance rights, and child custodial issues, to name a few, if polygamy were allowed.
This is a false argument made those who oppose same-sex marriage intended to scare other people into opposing same-sex marriage.
And don't be surprised how high the number of people there are who see it that way. As the difference between the two surveys show, there are a very significant number of people who do not see this issue as "legalizing gay marriage" (the positive rights viewpoint) but see it as "limiting the power of government" issue (the negative rights viewpoint). Such people may not necessarily approve of gay-marriage per se but see government regulation of marriage as an unnecessary and unconstitutional expansion of government authority. I see it that way. Government simply does not have the legal authority to regulate the right to freedom of association in such a manner.
Barry Goldwater, who was once called the "Father of Conservatism" saw this issue that way. He strongly opposed the expansion of government power in the personal arena and as the Republican Party absorbed the authoritarian Dixiecrats in during the 60s and 70s (that wing of the Party seizing control of the GOP by the Reagan-era), the principles of limited-government conservatism became unacceptable to the Republican leadership. Goldwater said, "The big thing is to make this country, along with every other country in the world with a few exceptions, quit discriminating against people just because they're gay. You don't have to agree with it, but they have a constitutional right to be gay. And that's what brings me into it." Goldwater said this; the man who was once called the poster-child for extremist conservatism. Now he might be considered too liberal for the Democrats, much less the Republicans.
It is issues like these that demonstrate how totally the Republican Party has lost the limited-government conservatives in favor of the big-government, totalitarian Christian-supremacists who want government to dictate religious doctrine in every arena, stripping away the religious independence of the country's houses of worship in favor of state-mandated theology. Goldwater had a warning such people before he died. He said, "Do not associate my name with anything you do. You are extremists, and you've hurt the Republican party much more than the Democrats have." They simply lack the capacity to see that he was right.
@Dave
Private individual rights cannot be limited because it would make things inconvenient or complicated for big-government. The rights of the people always take precedence over the convenience of government. Government is our servant, we are not theirs.
If the individuals in question all agree to the inheritance, property and child custody issues, what business it is of big-government? That's what "consensual" means. If there is disagreement then the relationship is not consensual and then and only then can government can step in.
"Polygamy is clearly a lifestyle choice, not some inborn trait which the individual has no control over."
Marriage is a lifestyle choice too. You may not have control over being gay, but you have control over whether you're married or not.
"The state has an interest in not allowing polygamy. There would be legal issues involving property rights, inheritance rights, and child custodial issues, to name a few, if polygamy were allowed."
Why? There could be simple rules in place, such as "the first wife gets everything", "each wife gets in proportion to duration of marriage", "each wife gets equal share", etc. That of course is assuming there is no will involved. Kids go with whoever bore them.
We have to ask ourselves what the purpose of special priveleges for married couples is to begin with. Generally we treat marriages differently from other relationships because it is a more intimate and long-lasting relationship than others. So if one man has an intimate and long-lasting relationship with multiple women, why doesn't that fit our criterion?
As for marriage with a horse--well, horses don't have legal rights to begin with, so it's a non-issue. Horses don't have to file tax returns.
"Government is our servant, we are not theirs."
Dude, it's a democracy. We are the government. If you don't believe me, just look at what a crappy job we're doing.
[Preface - although I'm quoting a certain TROLL below, the responses are not intentionally directed at that TROLL, but to hopefully dissuade anyone who might read the TROLL's comments and possibly be in some way swayed to believe the TROLL's reasoning.]
champion88 said...
If wanting America to have morals makes me a bigot, then fine I am a bigot.
That is better than being a scumbag.
My experience has shown that many of those who THINK they have morals are the actual scumbags. So yes, you can have your own set of moral values and live totally within those morals, and be a total scumbag at the same time.
As an example of 'upstanding Christians' with 'fine moral values', I submit the KKK.
Another couple of groups that really, really, REALLY try to live within their definition of 'morals' are the Taliban and al-Qaida.
champion88 said...
We just called it freedom of religion, because nothing else existed at the time.
If that is true, why did President John Adams sign a treaty titled "Treaty of Peace and Friendship Between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary", explicitly acknowledging that the Bey and subjects of Tripoli and of Barbary were not Christian?
In that same treaty, why did Section 11 explicitly state "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries" [emphasis added]?
Maybe you need to read a bit of history, FACTUAL history, to get your information correct. One place to start might be:
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
champion88 said...
They did not count [Native Americans or African Americans] as people.
You are slightly correct regarding Native Americans (although there is strong evidence that the Constitution was at least in part based on the Gayanashagowa (or "Great Law of Peace") that created the Five Nations of the Iroquois Confederacy (the Mohawk, the Oneida, the Onondaga, the Cayuga, and the Seneca).
As to African-Americans, why then do we find the words "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons" (for your information, the phrase "all other Persons" is a direct reference to slaves, who were almost exclusively African-American) in Article I, Section 2, of the Constitution?
champion88 said...
. . . all of the monotheistic religions are opposed to civil unions.
Really?
So the Protestant denominations that recognize civil unions, and perform civil unions AND religious marriages in their places of worship, are not monotheistic?
Reformed and Conservative Judaism synagogues that recognize civil unions, and perform civil unions AND religious marriages in their places of worship, are not monotheistic?
champion88 said...
The purpose of marriage is to eventually have a family . . . .
So I presume that you don't agree with a marriage of a couple who can't and/or doesn't intend to have any children? When attending a wedding, do you stand up and challenge the couple to first prove that they:
1. Can have children; and
2. Do intend to have children?
Somehow I seriously doubt that.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
"No, you need the government to enforce your morals on other people. Unfortunately for you we live in a country that's supposed to be free of that type of tyranny."
We need to enforce some sort of morals, or we are going to decay into a primitive sort of society.
"People that come after that are just as human as you. To say that they do no count is ugly, discriminatory, and immoral."
I never said they were not human, but they are clearly not part of the original family by the second divorce.
"We stray far from topic here. However, I would, for the entire trans community, like to say that you are wrong. Transsexuals are people just like anyone else."
Wow...just wow...you are willing to accept any semblance of a human as being equal. So is someone who eats dirt for a living, because they find it tasty, just like everyone else too?
"The issue is not whether the those that wrote the Constitution thought this way but whether we should. Clearly, every human being is created equal. It is unbelievable that you cannot seem to accept this."
They are created equal, but quickly diverge. Yes, all 1-year old babies are relatively equal, but it would be unthinkable to think that anyone on this forum is equal to someone like Ronald Raegan or Roy Halladay.
"Wrong again. Unitarian Universalists, who are generally considered monotheistic, are largely accepting of civil unions. My sister-in-law, who is about to be ordained in the Church of England, believes that GLBT should be able to have at least a civil union if not marriage."
OK, MOST of the monotheistic religions. Unitarian Univeralists are just one small sect who think they are every religion, so calling them a religion is a bit of a stretch to begin with.
And honestly no one cares what your sister-in-law things. I hate when people take a known law and think that because someone they know is different, means then that the law is wrong.
"The government is not your personal church. Please stop treating it as such."
Other entities besides religious houses of worship can pass value judgments.
"This narrow definition excludes a huge proportion of the population. People may not find out until they are married that they are infertile. Should they simply go their separate ways? You ignore the fundamental issue you proved above. People have a compulsion to marry, regardless of financial implication, because of love."
They should settle fertility issues BEFORE they get married.
And of course because someone has a compulsion to do something, they should automatically be allowed to? We do not need more people who need instant gratification constantly.
"As for screwing up kids, I am quite happily going through the approval process for adoption with my partner. Our social work, county council, and many others have all expressed their support."
Are you gay or you wre just infertile?
"A friend of mine said something that I believe makes an incredible quote:
"Inflicting pain and hurt is never right no matter what moral compass you hide behind.""
How is preventing someone from marrying causing them pain?
And that quote is asinine anyway, because what do we do with convicted criminals then?
Let them free because it is still wrong to inflict pain on them?
"Unquestionably, there is fierce disagreement about the sin issue, but what conservative Christians like Chamption88 don't understand is that we live in a country where church and State are separated."
Well we need to change that then.
The country would be much better off with an official religion.
"I found a survey that shows that the radical, bigoted views of people like Chamption88 are now thankfully in a distant minority.
WASHINGTON - June 30 - Anti-gay comments made by Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott earlier this month do not reflect the majority opinion in this country, says a new poll released today by the Human Rights Campaign.
The survey, conducted by Lake Snell Perry, asked 931 registered voters: Trent Lott, the Republican majority leader, recently made a statement that said homosexuality is a sin and compared it to alcoholism and kleptomania. Others say that homosexuality is inherent and not a choice, and that all Americans should be treated equally and fairly by lawmakers. Which of these statements comes closer to your own opinion? 24% said homosexuality is a sin and a disease; 55% said that homosexuality is inherent and that all Americans should be treated fairly; 14% said neither or both; 4% said don't know; and 3% refused to answer.
These numbers cut across party lines with 62% of Democrats, 57% of independents and 41% of Republicans saying that homosexuality is inherent and gay Americans should be treated equally. 18% of Democrats, 21% of independents, and 35% of Republicans saying that homosexuality is a sin."
Oh boy...a survey from the Human Rights Campaign will certainly not be biased? NOT.
And 931 voters? That surely represents the majority of the country!
Also, how do you say 45-55 is a distant minority?
"Does this mean Protestant clergy is one-half immoral? ; )"
The 46% with those views, according to your data, would be immoral
"So was slavery.TRhe bible never said a word against it.
How dare our goverment,and other countries,abolish it."
To be honest, all the government did was change the wording.
Most of the blacks in the south post-Civil War were still working as "slaves." They could just choose which master they wanted to be a slave towards.
"I think the higher support for civil unions for same sex couples points to the fact that most people want equal rights for everyone - they just don't want the government to legitimize behavior that they themselves feel is immoral."
So you want equal rights for predators? I guess we should repeal Megan's law then?
"Transsexuals do not count as people.
You are truly evil. I bet you think you are a devout "christian" don't you.
You do not count as a person, since you lack those traits that make a human worthwhile."
So you are telling me that everyone counts the same, but then say that I do not count?
That logic contradicts itself.
""Transsexuals do not count as people."
This is one of the most shocking and irreligious things I've ever seen. I'm dumbfounded at the blasphemy of it. It's heresy."
How is it heresy?
"I am an atheist. I do not believe in god."
Right here...you have no right to talk. If you do not believe in a superior being in some capacity, then you are completely retarded.
You clearly were an accident when born.
"Should we continue this policy of requiring gays who desire a family structure to marry people of the opposite sex, like the New Jersy governor, Larry Craig, and countless others? Is this good social policy?"
Gay people have no business raising kids.
"I guess I shouldn't try to stop you. If you want to keep making yourselves more and more isolated and unpopular, go ahead."
Honestly, I do not post here to try to keep up some sort of internet popularity.
@champion: You are a disgusting excuse for a person. I tried, several times to respond to your posts. It is heartbreaking to find people who think like you do. If god is real, may he have mercy on your soul.
"There are few concepts that are as fundamentally anti-American as that...that government not only should but must have the power to dictate and enforce religious dogma against the will of its citizens. That kind of authoritarian government control is neither necessary nor welcome in a free society. "
The government should have the power to enforce common religious dogma on its citizens. Most major religions of the world are against homosexuality.
"The problem is that the legislature didn't follow through on that principle. They kept the government in the marriage business despite calls to get the government out of that business...they just grudgingly relaxed their standards. Until that problem is fixed there's going to be constant strife on this issue as one side or the other will have a government that's telling them that their moral views are wrong."
That would not solve the issue. I would be furious if the government started recognizing gay marriage.
I am already angry at the 6 liberal states that accepted civil unions.
"Pan, marriage at one time was defined as between two people of the same race. Now, that is not true, thanks to Loving v. Virginia (thank you, Lord Calvert, for posting that famous but awful quote from the Va. judge). Tell me, Pan, were the Lovings selfish for redefining marriage so they could live in Virginia without facing prosecution for being an interracially married couple?"
Yeah, they were selfish. I am sure they faced prosecution anyway, from the people who hated them for that change. So that was a pretty pointless decision for them.
"The point, of course is that the government-sponsored media can no longer be trusted to report the news for what it is, but is now firmly in the camp of the Obama spin machine, working overtime to see him succeed.
No such comity was accorded George Bush or any of his GOP predecessors."
"No such comity was accorded George Bush or any of his GOP predecessors."
...
...
Stop it, Pete. I might just kill myself laughing.
"I submit that we atheists trying to foist our "atheism" onto the religious is exactly what our secular government is supposed to when it enacts laws. That is, it is not supposed to favor one religious view over another, nor is it to favor any religious view over a non-religious view. If our legislators would actually operate that correct way, we would not have any of these debates."
So you are saying that the government is supposed to favor atheists?
How is that a separation of religion and state? Atheists are still a religious entity, even if they like to pretend that no superior being exists. So we just all popped up at a random point in time? What ****oles.
Most of you should know better than to feed the troll.
The bottom line is all marriagesin this country, even those performed by clergy, are civil contracts. This is why the California Supremes could not invalidate the same-sex marriages that took place prior to the passing of Prop 8. The California Constitution specifically prohibits ex post facto law to apply to contracts.
We go to court to dissolve marriages for the same reason. Otherwise why wouldn't we just have it so a pastor, rabbi, priest, witch doctor, or whatever, to simply declare you unmarried?
If your morals tell you same-sex marriage is wrong, then don't get involved in one. If it's on the ballot and you want to vote against it, do so, but don't try to defend your bigotry by trying to put yourself on some kind of higher moral plain. Your morals do not, and should not ever, trump someone else's civil rights.
champion88: "
This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard? Marrying for tax breaks? Why not just have some "friends with benefits" while you are at it?
We need the government to pass value judgments on people's lifestyles."
Guess what? Heterosexual people marry for tax breaks in America, as it stands, ALL THE TIME, AND THERE IS NOTHING THE GOVERNMENT COULD POSSIBLY DO ABOUT IT.
"Polygamy is clearly a lifestyle choice, not some inborn trait which the individual has no control over."
And then those people will whine that the government is obstructing their lifestyles and freedoms, which is the same pathetic argument gays use now.
"If that is true, why did President John Adams sign a treaty titled "Treaty of Peace and Friendship Between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary", explicitly acknowledging that the Bey and subjects of Tripoli and of Barbary were not Christian?
In that same treaty, why did Section 11 explicitly state "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries" [emphasis added]?"
Because America was weak at the time and they wanted to appease the Tripoli pirates, because they knew they would not be able to eliminate the threat.
So they just told them what they wanted to hear basically.
@Scott: "This is anything but a discrimination issue. No law in any state makes distinctions between gays and straights. All the law says is that a MAN can only marry a WOMAN, and vice versa. Gay men and straight men have exactly the same rights, in that they can only marry women."
So if you were deathly allergic to peanuts, you would be perfectly OK with the government refusing to pass labelling laws requiring those little allergy alerts on food packaging, on the basis that you were still entitled to eat the same (possibly peanut-containing) food as everyone else?
"As to African-Americans, why then do we find the words "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons" (for your information, the phrase "all other Persons" is a direct reference to slaves, who were almost exclusively African-American) in Article I, Section 2, of the Constitution?"
Because the South wanted their cake and eat it too by not calling blacks people, but then wanted them to count for the Census.
And the North could not bully the South in, so they made a compromise.
But everyone would laugh if you thought that the South thought of blacks as real people with actual rights in that time period.
"So I presume that you don't agree with a marriage of a couple who can't and/or doesn't intend to have any children? When attending a wedding, do you stand up and challenge the couple to first prove that they:
1. Can have children; and
2. Do intend to have children?
Somehow I seriously doubt that."
If a couple does not intend to have children when they marry, then yes, I would be opposed to such a marriage.
The pastor is responsible for making sure that the family intends to have children.
@nosimplehighway: Some of us enjoy shouting at trolls. :)
"@champion: You are a disgusting excuse for a person. I tried, several times to respond to your posts. It is heartbreaking to find people who think like you do. If god is real, may he have mercy on your soul."
Why am I disgusting? And where are your posts? I did not see any.
Of course God is real. Only an idiot would believe otherwise.
""The point, of course is that the government-sponsored media can no longer be trusted to report the news for what it is, but is now firmly in the camp of the Obama spin machine, working overtime to see him succeed.
No such comity was accorded George Bush or any of his GOP predecessors."
"No such comity was accorded George Bush or any of his GOP predecessors."
...
...
Stop it, Pete. I might just kill myself laughing."
Are you kidding me? Obama gets a positive spin all the time.
Whereas Bush got the worst possible spin constantly.
"If your morals tell you same-sex marriage is wrong, then don't get involved in one. If it's on the ballot and you want to vote against it, do so, but don't try to defend your bigotry by trying to put yourself on some kind of higher moral plain. Your morals do not, and should not ever, trump someone else's civil rights."
Gay people are on a lower moral plain just for acting on their immoral urges.
Someone should not be permitted to do something, simply because they have the urge to do so.
If you want to allow that, then you might as well throw all the laws out the window.
@Pan: "Good for you. Too bad many pagan and polytheist societies also came to the conclusion that marriage was an institution between one man and one woman."
I have no idea what pagan societies you're thinking of, but the ones I've heard of had a little saying along the lines of "Do as ye will an it harm none". (IOW, STFU and eat your pie - and let your lesbian neighbours eat each others' pies. :) )
And in modern pagan (neopagan) societies, it is normal for 'handfasting' ceremonies to be performed for either homo- or heterosexual couples.
"Guess what? Heterosexual people marry for tax breaks in America, as it stands, ALL THE TIME, AND THERE IS NOTHING THE GOVERNMENT COULD POSSIBLY DO ABOUT IT."
Then, the government should just repeal all the tax breaks for all marriages.
@Dave: "I find it interesting that nobody has any truly legal reason as to why same-sex marriage should be banned."
There are no legal reasons for it because it's seen as a moral issue, and despite what champion88 claims to think, the law has nothing to do with morality whatsoever. The law goofed by using a word - "marriage" - normally understood as a social construct, to describe a legal one. Now we're stuck with the mess. And it's the same across most of the developed world (for those who haven't paid attention to me in previous posts, I'm Canadian).
Having the word "marriage" in law is ridiculous. Unfortunately, it apparently appears on the order of a thousand times in American federal law. So if you honestly believe that homosexuals should be equal under the law, you either have to support gay marriage, or you have to support the "correct" approach of fixing hundreds of existing laws.
Unfortunately for me, I've always been a bit of an idealist ;) But I can at least protest by refusing to get (legally) married at all.
@champion & PK:
I would agree that since late 2005, (i.e., after Katrina and the pre-Surge disintegation of Iraq) G. W. Bush received negative press coverage. Before that, however, he pretty much received a pass in the media. Think of it as a five-year honeymoon with the press.
So far, I would agree with you that Obama has received positive media coverage during his first five MONTHS in office.
If the tone is still this positive in three or five YEARS, I will be gobsmacked. Unless, of course, his presidency turns out better than Bush's did. We'll have to wait to find out what happens.
That's GENIUS! I like the way you think.
@Drawlines Blog:
Who's the "GENIUS"? I don't want a swelled head I didn't earn. ;-)
It may very well be that champion88 is trolling, but if so he's doing so in the most effective possible way: with extremely consistent internal logic. The lone exception is the first comment, on gay marriage not making sense on a linguistic level.
People have claimed that he is illogical, but that's really not true... he has a number of central premises (i.e., the literal truth of the Bible) and all of his comments from those premises are logically consistent. Most of the attempts to "persuade him" follow a familiar pattern, making the opponent agree to something that seems distasteful (i.e., transsexuals must be converted to one sex).
Most of you think he's wrong about his assumptions, but I think ironically some of you are falling victim to the thing that the Right is often accused of on this board: inability to understand the opponent's position. While it's helpful rhetoric to cast an issue like gay marriage in as obvious a terms as you understand them (if you believe in rights, you believe in this!), you are not persuading anybody who doesn't already agree with you. Perhaps you can't persuade everyone, but that mentality ensures that you find the opposition completely incomprehensible, not just wrong. Perhaps you can't change something so fundamental as the Bible's literal truth, but for many people the assumptions underlying their value judgments are more flexible, and in the case of gay marriage, could be changed. But first you have to know what those assumptions are, you can't just tell them they're evil and move on.
If one thinks for a moment about the old miscegenation laws, the"positive" versus "negative" rights issue becomes crystal clear. There is no law giving mixed race couples the right to marry, rather there were laws that prevented them from doing so that were repealed. The only thing preventing gay couples from getting married are "marriage protection' laws that were written for that purpose.
Nate, this is a wonderful insight. Keep up your great work!
Homosexuals can get married. The whole deal is if their marriage is recognized. Will the state give out marriage license to those of the same sex? If marriage licenses were revoked from everyone it still doesn't stop the concept of marriage. If people weren't classified as male or female, would that stop us from being male or female?
Champion 88 .... I know who you are!!!
You´re the progeny of Jerry Falwell and Satan, who had a little tryst a few years back because Jerry found it boring coming home to God at the end of every single day...Jerry Falwell was, of course, the passive one because you can imagine how hard it would be for Satan to bend over...( Jerry was begging for it anyway...)
Imagine if the government suddenly decreed that people had to take an I.Q. test to get married...and established the minimum score at, dunno, 60.
You´d be forced to live in sin, you couldn´t pay joint income tax, inherit, visit the hospital during "closest kin" hours... and about 1,000 other rights...
The rights you defend today, may someday be your own, fool.
Makes me kinda wish that you´re parents had been subjected to just such a test way back when... the world would be a better place.
ooops! "your" parents.
In the last century or so, society has vehemently resisted itself to female voting rights, afroamerican voting rights and civil rights in general, as well as mixed marriage...
But who would dare to question these realities now? Perhaps just a handful of lunatics, but the greater society now accepts the exercise of these rights. Ipso facto.
We´ve just got to keep push push pushing until we drag each and every state forward in its acceptance of gay rights. And it depends on all of us: it comes through example, it comes through verbal protest, it comes through the education of our children... talking openly, treating our gay friends and family members with naturalness... introducing them, and their partners, to our friends and family as a couple. Making no excuses, no bones about it. Marching in pro-gay events just to add to the bulk and make it clear that there is a huge level of support outside of gay communities and households.
Gay equality is one of the last frontiers and we need to move forward towards it TOGETHER. It´s not just the responsibility of gay activist groups. It´s the responsibility of each and every American who believes in the core principles that the US was founded upon.
I live in a European country that allows gay marriage and adoption on a federal level... It was passed only recently and, of course, amidst a huge controversy... But no one submitted this to referendum. It was a simple matter of the Government applying the Constitution to a social group that hadn´t been protected by it. Period.
In practice, it was the only road to REGULATING pre-existing gay unions and families and, above all, a way for allowing gay couples to legally adopt each other´s children in the event of the death of the biological parent and thus protecting these children against having to go to foster homes. Now, they can remain in their homes, schools, in the care of someone they know and love.
That´s the side that we don´t see. Only if gays can marry can they eventually adopt. This is about protecting children, too.
Laws do not invent reality. They just seek to regulate realities that already exist.
"Right here...you have no right to talk. If you do not believe in a superior being in some capacity, then you are completely retarded.
You clearly were an accident when born."
Are you serious? Anyone who does not believe in god is retarded? And I was an "accident"? I did believe in god until I was 13 years old. In your narrow-minded, bigoted world, should I have been put to death when I became an atheist? [In your narrow-minded, bigoted world, I expect your answer to be "yes".]
"Yeah, they were selfish. I am sure [the Lovings] faced prosecution anyway, from the people who hated them for that change. So that was a pretty pointless decision for them.
No, the Lovings faced prosecution from the state of Virginia because it had a bigoted law on its books which prohibited an interracial couple from living in its state. They were told to get out or face prosecution.
So you are saying that the government is supposed to favor atheists?
"How is that a separation of religion and state? Atheists are still a religious entity, even if they like to pretend that no superior being exists. So we just all popped up at a random point in time? What ****oles."
Atheists are not a religious entity. We do not "pretend" that no superior being exists. We actually do not believe in god.
Didn't you ever hear of Charles Darwin and his book, "On the Origin of Species"? I'll take that (and his theory of Evolution) over the piece of fiction called the bible when it comes to answering the question, "Where did we come from?"
Government should favor atheism (i.e. the lack of a belief in god) in its legislation because our Constitution is atheistic (i.e. it does not even mention god). We should get god off the money, out of the Pledge, and get rid of stuff like that stupid Faith-Based Initiatives program Bush put into place. Remember, atheism is not a religion.
Favoring atheism IS EXACTLY the definition of separation of church and state, something you want to end. ["The country would be much better off with an official religion."] Shame on you!
"Of course God is real. Only an idiot would believe otherwise."
Prove it!
"If a couple does not intend to have children when they marry, then yes, I would be opposed to such a marriage.
The pastor is responsible for making sure that the family intends to have children."
So if two 80-year-olds, even if they are an opposite-sex couple, want to marry, you would stand up at their wedding and openly oppose it because they have no intention or ability to have children? I would LOVE to see you do that and see your sorry a$$ get thrown out of the building!
I couldn't read through all these comments, but need to mention something to Champion...
Reformed Judaism and Conservative Judaism allows for gay marriages to be performed at their houses of worship. They also allow for the ordaining of gay and lesbian rabbis and cantors. It is up to each individual congregation to determine who they want to hire, and if they want to religiously bless a union.
Champion88, you may be writing out of concern for morality, etc., but I think you are woefully ignorant about the lives of gay and lesbian couples. I would strongly suggest you try to meet a gay or lesbian couple first and understand all the difficulties that they face before making value judgments.
A heterosexual husband or wife who wants to spend the night in the hospital with his other half is allowed to. Not so for gays and lesbians unless they have durable power of attorney and a ton of other legal forms, and even then those are only valid in their home state. Even then, they can (and have been) challenged in court--usually by a family member.
A wife or husband is automatically given the right to dispose of the other partner's body any way they see fit. I know gay couples where one partner was barred from even attending the funeral.
A wife or husband automatically inherits the couple's belongings. I know gay couples where one of the partners was literally thrown out of the house by the other partner's family--usually (though hot always) for money reasons.
A married couple can adopt way easier than gay or lesbian couples. Now you may think this is a good thing, but put yourself in the kid's shoes: is it better to move around between foster homes and youth shelters or is it better to have a permanent home with two people who care for you?
This is definitely NOT about money. This is about the ability to build a life together. Pure and simple.
Pan said: "Marriage, in any dictionary or religious tome, is defined as the union of one man and one woman.
CHECK OUT ENTRY NUMBER 4........Looks like some dictionaries are more "updated" than certain people....lol
mar⋅riage [mar-ij] Show IPA
–noun
1. the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.
2. the state, condition, or relationship of being married; wedlock: a happy marriage.
3. the legal or religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of a man and woman to live as husband and wife, including the accompanying social festivities: to officiate at a marriage.
4. a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage; homosexual marriage.
5. any close or intimate association or union: the marriage of words and music in a hit song.
6. a formal agreement between two companies or enterprises to combine operations, resources, etc., for mutual benefit; merger.
7. a blending or matching of different elements or components: The new lipstick is a beautiful marriage of fragrance and texture.
8. Cards. a meld of the king and queen of a suit, as in pinochle. Compare royal marriage.
9. a piece of antique furniture assembled from components of two or more authentic pieces.
10. Obsolete. the formal declaration or contract by which act a man and a woman join in wedlock.
Origin:
1250–1300; ME mariage < OF, equiv. to mari(er) to marry 1 + -age -age
Synonyms:
3. matrimony. Marriage, wedding, nuptials are terms for the ceremony uniting couples in wedlock. Marriage is the simple and usual term, without implications as to circumstances and without emotional connotations: to announce the marriage of a daughter. Wedding has rather strong emotional, even sentimental, connotations, and suggests the accompanying festivities, whether elaborate or simple: a beautiful wedding; a reception after the wedding. Nuptials is a formal and lofty word applied to the ceremony and attendant social events; it does not have emotional connotations but strongly implies surroundings characteristic of wealth, rank, pomp, and grandeur: royal nuptials. It appears frequently on newspaper society pages chiefly as a result of the attempt to avoid continual repetition of marriage and wedding. 5. alliance, confederation; weld, junction.
I love this: the religious and other assorted whackos are all supporting their bigoted views by saying that pro-gay activists want to redefine "marriage".. in other words, anti-gays have the semantics of the English language on their side.
Gosh, I just found out that "marriage" doesn´t even have to refer to people... it can be between perfume notes in a fragrance, pieces of antique furniture, words, music, playing cards...
So cut the semantic shit now: marriage can mean anything that PEOPLE decide that it means.
As for the Biblical definition of marriage... we are talking about CIVIL unions... only if your life is governed by the Bible, would this definition even matter... this is not a religious issue. This is an equal rights issue.
The majority of us are governed by the laws of Man and Common Fucking Sense.
@Nate:
You are absolutely right about the importance of wording and messaging for the opponents of Prop 8 -- they were much more successfully managed expressing outrage at the restriction of people's freedom, rather than the positive notions of equality for all. The difference is subtle but important.
I worked on a Democratic campaign in California that often shared space and resources with the No on Prop 8 campaign. The short version is that the message was sorely mismanaged in the first couple months with an emphasis on positive liberty. To wit, the campaign slogan was "No on 8: Equality for All." The idealism of the LGBT community and its allies in this campaign got the better of them, often seeking to be a model of equality in the campaign rather than a model of efficacy. The "Equality for All" meme was a weak riposte to the viciousness of the Yes side's fearmongering that Prop 8's failure would lead to the indoctrination of our California students.
Polling was always somewhat unreliable on this ballot initiative, but early on, the polling showed Prop 8 failing by a decent margin. By the time the right-wing opponents had gathered themselves and galvanized around their message, the polling for the No side dipped. Subsequently, as it looked like a very real possibility that the Yes would win, the amateurs in Northern California and their local patchwork strategy gave way to national advocacy groups and real political consultants and organizers. The first thing to change was the camapaign slogan -- and it went from the expression of positive rights, "Equality for All" to negative, "Unfair & Wrong," as in, it is unfair and wrong to allow the law to discriminate.
Here, have a look:
Equality for All versus Unfair & Wrong.
Or this early ad versus this later ad
Notice the difference in message, framing and tone?
Soon after, the polling showed a bump back toward rejecting the proposition. Had this strategy of going for people's sense of negative rights been adopted sooner, it truly may have been enough to swing the vote.
The messaging does somewhat correlate with the directional changes in polling: Prop 8 polling (Pollster.com).
From all this, I think you can infer that Democratic/marriage equality activists are well aware of the difference in perception and support when the question of gay marriage is phrased as a negative rather than positive rights questions. Unfortunately for California, those in charge realized this much too late.
Don't forget same-sex bi-national couples, either. Many of them are forced to choose either to stay with their beloved partners or with their original families, for
DOMA forbids the US government from recognizing same-sex couples regardless of their legal status as being legally "partnered", "union-ed" or married in any nation or US state. So DOMA pretty much makes any American citizen wishing to sponsor his/her same-sex partner for permanent residence impossible.
P.S. Internet trolls are only fun only when somehow our PC screen creates a false sense of security. But as exhibited by recent news, such false sense of security is poisonous to our civil society since a tiny portion of those trolls might also be as paranoid in real life. We have to stay guarded!
champion88 said "The only reason this is an issue anyway is because of money issues. If you really "love" someone, no one is stopping you from being with them.
Just do not expect us to reward you financially for it."
Hey champ, I'm already being rewarded financially! Thanks to being prohibited from having a legal union with my financially well-off partner, I only have to report my small part-time salary when I complete financial aid applications for college. I'm returning to college for a master's degree courtesy of Pell Grants funded by taxpayers. Yay! Thank you, champ!
champion88 said...
FIRST COMMENT!Gay marriage does not make sense. A marriage is defined as between a man and a woman, so a gay form makes no sense.It should be banned completely.endquote.
if you say a dumb stupid lie enough times to enough people, some people will begin to believe. nowhere, ever has marriage been defined as one man with one woman. just not true.
in fact throughout human history, everything but one man one woman has been the rule. marriage has always been about property and children. throughout human history.
and most parts of the world have recognized same sex families. FACT.
even the catholic and orthodox christian churches had same gender marriage and family. the catholic church until the reformation. the orthodox church even later. also historical fact.
It's obvious to me that many of those who strongly oppose gay marriage simple hate gay people, and this has nothing to do with our ability to get married. I don't care what straight people think about me anyways, and I'm not here to talk to them. I'm here to talk to other gay people about why we are going to lose this 'battle'.
Single-issue activism. ALL we talk about and care about is marriage. Have ANY of you looked around? Most of our relationships are down the drain in 6-24 months. Many of us have NO clue on how to date, how to have relationships, where to meet other gay people; dating 101...we missed out on years of these experiences yet nobody ever talks about how that hinders our chances of finding and keeping a relationship later in life. We're doing everything 20 years later than straight people of the same age bracket. We had to wait. For every gay couple I know of who wants to get married I can name about 15 single gay people who've waited 10 years just to MEET someone decent. They've given up - they don't support gay marriage because they liken it to a woman who has had a miscarriage and has to sit and look at couples with newborns all the time - it's too painful to talk about and it's too painful to look at. Don't torture them.
Single-issue activism is going to kill the gay community. You will not see any more Marches on Washington because you self-righteous people have alienated about 80% of the gay and lesbian community - how about our other issues: lack of health care, homelessness, suicide, substance abuse, HIV, breast cancer, depression...none of this matters anymore? Or it doesn't matter because it's not YOUR problem? My point is this: gay people make up an incredibly small percentage of people as it is. I guarantee you - if you won't listen to the issues that the rest of us face, we will not be supporting your marriage fight. That's how it's going to work. Either you stop being so hung up on your own self-importance or the rest of the community will bring you back down to earth while you lose what little rights you thought you were going to gain. Nobody wins when only 5% of the community gets what they want.
champion88 has no life.
been commenting this article since the 11th?? come on, honestly?
this reminds me of christwire.com
Poe's Law (search for it on wikipedia) comes to mind here.
Stop feeding the trolls. Everybody chill. at the rate things are going, we should have gay marriage in all states soon enough. probably in the next 5 years.
At least Champion88 had the integrity to say overtly that transsexuals aren't people.
Many in the US agree with him, they just don't have the courage to say it.
Example: The Wisconsin Inmate Sex Change Prevention Act - the prison medics have testified that it's a lot cheaper to provide hormones to trans people than to deal with their deaths if they don't get them, but still that's the practice. Having them die is seen as worth the additional cost to the taxpayer.
As regards what is transsexuality, and its relationship to other Intersex conditions...
It's a lot more complicated than most people think. For 59 people out of 60, everything matches. Chromosomes, genitalia, endocrinology, neurology. And most of those who have anomalies are asymptomatic, or nearly so.
For 1 in 1000 though, the anomalies can be pretty darned spectacular.
One of them is transsexuality. Cross-gendered neurology, compared with most or all of the rest of the body. There's often other Intersex conditions too, maybe 1 in 10.
That's it.
See, for example:
A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality by Zhou et al.
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus by Kruijver et al:
fMRT zur Diagnose bei Transsexualität geprüft (An Examination of the use of fMRT for diagnosing Transsexuality) (ArzteZeitung, 2006)
A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity by
A. Garcia-Falgueras A and D.F. Swaab.
Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund H, Lindström P, Dhejne-Helmy C, and Savic I.
And so on and so on. As Prof Ecker MD said recently at the APA annual conference:
"We spoke for 2 1/2 hours on why cross gender identity was a normal inherited variation of humans. We showed how Transgender Brains think, smell, and hear like the opposite sex.
...
My greatest personal compliment came from Frank Kruijver, from Holland, whose research of the human brain in TSs started it all. He thought we have taken his work very far in our understanding of the human brain."
What's really upsetting to many people like Champion88 are those who get natural sex changes. See for example:
Gender change in 46,XY persons with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency by Cohen-Ketternis
The natural sex-change can cause or cure transsexuality.
Personally, I hope that Champion88 has IPSR - that's perhaps 1 in 10 million, really rare - and so will get a natural sex change to female. I think he deserves it. It would make him transsexual of course, and therefore no longer a person by his own definition. But he might find it educational. I think it would be good for him. Not her - the body may change, but the neurology doesn't.
Better polling question: Do you support the existing traditional definition of marriage as between one man and one woman?
Reframing the question to tease out some 'better number' for one side is Poll-aganda.
"The institution of marriage has been around for thousands of years, much longer that this nation and its laws."
"So was slavery.TRhe bible never said a word against it.
How dare our goverment,and other countries,abolish it."
Wow, so marriage=slavery=bad ...
Phony strawman arguments have been around that long too.
"if you say a dumb stupid lie enough times to enough people, some people will begin to believe. nowhere, ever has marriage been defined as one man with one woman. just not true."
You seem to be proof of this.
Marriage is one man and one woman. This was encoded in laws of Justinian (535AD) and in even earlier laws of the ancients.
The rests of your 'facts' are as nonsensical as the above.
"A friend of mine said something that I believe makes an incredible quote:
"Inflicting pain and hurt is never right no matter what moral compass you hide behind."
Destroying traditional marriage causes harm to children, who are far more likely to suffer negative life consequences when raised outside of the traditional marriage structure - more likely to do poorly in school, more likely to be victims of abuse, more likely to become criminals.
... and yet all we hear is this nonsense that standing up for traditional marriage is bigotry.
I can not and do not understand the fear, ignorance and hatred, whether through bigotry or not, that people have towards those who hold on to traditional moral values.
"and most parts of the world have recognized same sex families. FACT."
More utter nonsense. Only a small number of European countries and few small declining-in-population states.
Gay marriage is associated with nations that are going headlong into demographic meltdown. Separating marriage by redefining it further from procreation further marginalizes the next generation, and takes the society further down the slippery slope of child-less demographic suicide. Gay marriage is not and will not be recognized in locations that care about the future of their society.
"Polygamy is clearly a lifestyle choice, not some inborn trait which the individual has no control over."
I find that comment somewhat laughable. Men are wired to have sex with any piece of tail that they find attractive. it's not more nor less inborn than what that tail looks like, or whether male or female. It's taken 10,000 years of civilizing, religious morality, societal rules, and LAWS LIKE THE MARRIAGE LAWS to turn stone age man into Homo Domesticus, a guy who actually sticks around long enough with one mate to support the kids derived from that union.
It further laughable that gays feel imposed upon by getting cut out of the marriage institution deal, like its such a great deal for the man. It's a great deal - for the WOMAN and the KIDS. It provides a legal structure to protect them from runaway males who think with the equipment between their legs.
ITS NOT A GOOD DEAL FOR THE BREADWINNER who wants to cut loose from social mores.
Why the lets-overturn-traditional-marriage folks refuse to see the real facts of life here is beyond me. it's a bull in a china shop ready to socially re-engineer society. is it REALLY worth it? Gay unions are not the same and therefore don't need to have govt recognition as same.
And if this is all about getting Govt bennies like tax deductions, one THEN has to wonder why all the high falutin talk about 'rights'. Marriage is an institution, not a right.
"The "Equality for All" meme was a weak riposte to the viciousness of the Yes side's fearmongering that Prop 8's failure would lead to the indoctrination of our California students."
Alas, that's not fearmongering but reality. In Massachusetts, parents have been arrested for opposing indoctrination of thier kids in kindergarten on these matters. Free speech and tolerance for traditional views is being destroyed in other countries. A good example of the loss of rights, denial of freedom and restriction on choice is that adoption agencies cannot freely decide to send adopted kids to health mom-and-dad parents only. Adoption agencies have been shut down over this, hurting children.
"There is no such thing as a "marriage tax" anymore.It was done away with a few years ago."
False. the marriage penalty was indeed reduced, but it was not fully eliminated for all income earners especially at the top end. When the Democrats raise taxes on the high income earners next year it will get worse for them.
"As to the whole younger generation is anti-choice thing, I can't see that as being true. The polling could be wrong or maybe I'm just sheltered."
You are sheltered. Life beings at conception - that's a biological fact and one that the next generation is more aware of than ever before. Thus, you have to be completely ignorant or living under a rock not to realize that abortion kills a living human being.
Women a generation ago were told lies that they were just aborting 'tissue' or that it couldnt feel anything. Maybe they are told those lies in abortion clinics even today, but fewer women will fall for it. Well science moved on - we know now that a fetal heartbeat occurs by week 7, 150 beats a minute, brain function by week 8, REM sleep, ie dreams, in 2nd trimester. Would-be parents can see it first hand now - sonograms of perfectly formed little pre-born babies show fingers, toes, bones, brains, the whole human being inside the womb.
The pill begat the sexual revolution, and the sonogram begat a recognition that the unintended product of sex is indeed a living human being.
The relevent polling questions would be:
1. Do you believe that a fetus in the womb is a living human being?
2. Do you believe that the living human being in the womb should have any rights?
As more people realize that "yes" is the correct answer to #1, more will say "yes" to #2 as well.
"champion88" said:
"The only reason this is an issue anyway is because of money issues. If you really "love" someone, no one is stopping you from being with them."
That's false. Thousands of same-sex couples, in which one partner is not a U.S. citizen, have been or are being legally stopped from being together. A 50-year-old straight man can legally sponsor a 20-year-old Filipina woman for permanent U.S. residency by using a K1 "fiancee" visa. Meanwhile, a 30-year-old U.S. citizen woman cannot sponsor her 30-year-old Canadian partner for U.S. permanent residency, even if they were legally married in Canada several years ago.
This is bullshit.
"Just do not expect us to reward you financially for it."
I am so sick of that phony argument. You are not subsidizing anything. Gay people are being forced to pay for services that YOU receive and that THEY are barred from. Ever thought of that way, 'champion'?
and most parts of the world have recognized same sex families. FACT."
More utter nonsense. Only a small number of European countries and few small declining-in-population states."
Gay marriage is associated with nations that are going headlong into demographic meltdown...."
This is a complete lie. The following countries support same-sex marriage or similar type of partnership:
Belgium
Canada
Netherlands
Norway
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
Nepal
Aruba
Isreal
Netherlands Antilles
Andorra
Czech Republic
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greenland
Hungary
Iceland
Luxembourg
New Zealand
Slovenia
Switzerland
United Kingdom
Uruguay
Argentina
Australia
Mexico
Venezuela
And for the record, the population in the UK and most of the population above is growing.
"The only reason this is an issue anyway is because of money issues. If you really "love" someone, no one is stopping you from being with them."
"Just do not expect us to reward you financially for it."
Hear, hear!
I presume you think that we should do away with the tax benefits married couples currently enjoy.
oh, Champion88 is certainly logically consistent.
He's just mean. He views gays as being intrinsically inferior to heterosexuals. He couches this opinion in the language of "morals", but would not be able to really trace this down to deeper moral arguments since, to a person like him, it's inherently obvious that homosexuality is immoral. It's axiomatic for people like this.
If you go back to the 50s, you'll see people making the same kinds of arguments for racial divisions, using the same kind of unapologetic language.
As for PeteKent, I stopped reading when he thought it was appropriate to speculate about fellating the President.
This thread devolved into parody after Champion88, who had spent copious amounts of screen space trying to explain to us who "counts as a person" and who does not, started giving us his/her views on abortion. You don't count! You don't count! But for Christ's sake, never, ever hurt a fetus!
What a scumbag, to quote his/her own colorful word. It's ironic how it's always people like this person who jump to the Hitler analogies the fastest, when they have a tendency to repeat his rhetoric...
Although I fear this person may object to my intersexing the pronoun.
Men are wired to have sex with any piece of tail that they find attractive. it's not more nor less inborn than what that tail looks like, or whether male or female. It's taken 10,000 years of civilizing, religious morality, societal rules, and LAWS LIKE THE MARRIAGE LAWS to turn stone age man into Homo Domesticus, a guy who actually sticks around long enough with one mate to support the kids derived from that union.
I find this comment somewhat laughable. The fact that it fails to account for female same sex attraction aside, marriage laws have always been pretty clearly designed to provide men with an an inordinate amount of power over women, often to allow them to spread their seed with as many females as possible. It's sort of nutty to try to assert that the long grand arc of the history of marriage has been to produce a version that makes men act like steadfast, responsible husbands and fathers. No esoteric law could ever do that.
Marriage laws have traditionally treated women as property to be traded between families like cattle. You speak as if the nuclear family has been the standard for thousands of years.
The sexual revolution provided females with the power to support their own families. This is the true ever expanding crack in the glass house that is traditional marriage. The fact that a woman has a greater choice to decide who she wants to be with, if it's anybody at all, has changed the world forever.
Ultimately same sex marriage is merely a footnote to all of this. GLBT folk are no less genetically capable of producing offspring, and they will continue to do so, as they always have, so that argument is moot that GLBT families can't produce children and so are illegitimate. This very fact that a GLBT family is as capable as the next (as there are many, many variations on the straight family setup) in terms of producing and rearing children and maintaining a family structure naturally implies that federal marriage laws should be extended to cover them, regardless of your personal "ick" factor or religious beliefs. Last time I looked, there was a separation between church and state.
You can have your personal opinions about whether or not a GLBT family is capable of producing as effective a member of the next generation as a regular male/female couple, but I'd like to see you take your crusade down its natural slippery slope to single moms, families that adopt, children being raised by uncles/aunts/grandparents/etc., or the many other variations on family setups.
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