One of the more engaging critics of the Waxman-Markey ("cap-and-trade") bill that the House approved on Friday is Jim Manzi, whose work appears in a bunch of places like The National Review, and The American Scene. The economics of both climate change itself and policy efforts to mitigate it are murky, problematic areas and Manzi deserves credit for trying navigate the waters honestly -- it's nice to be engaged in a debate with a conservative who doesn't seem to think that Al Gore invented global warming.
One of Manzi's central points is that climate change just ain't all that damaging, economically speaking: it will reduce global GDP by "only" 5 percent one hundred years hence, he writes, even arguably pessimistic assumptions by the IPCC about both the magnitude of climate change and its economic impacts. There are a couple of economic points that can be raised against this, the most persuasive of which has to do with the possibility of "fat tail" events like warming of 10-20 degrees C, which appear unlikely based on present knowledge but which cannot entirely be ruled out, and which would effectively destroy the world economy if not civilization itself. There's also the question of what happens after 2110, because if we've reached that point by 2110, it means that things almost certainly will continue to get worse, not better.
Most of all, though, I wonder if GDP is really the right measure at all. This is not a qualitative objection against looking at things through an economic lens: it is, rather, a merely technical one.
The problem with GDP is this: it varies greatly across counties, by a factor of 800 or so on a per-capita basis between Burundi and Luxembourg, or nearly 2,000 if you count Zimbabwe, which effectively does not have an economy. A lot of countries contribute almost nothing to global GDP, even though they may have tens or hundreds of millions of people. You could literally wipe them from the globe and the impact on global GDP would be de minimis.
Why don't we try and do that, in fact? Let's see how much of the world we can destroy before getting to 5% of global GDP. The figures I'll use are IMF estimates of 2008 GDP, for all countries bit Zimbabwe where the IMF did not publish a 2008 estimate and I use 2007 instead.
Zimbabwe, indeed, is the first country on the chopping block, whose 11.7 million greedy bastards consume a whole 0.0196 percent of the world's output -- a global low of just $55 per person. After that, we get to destroy Burundi, The Congo (the larger of the two Congos -- the one that used to be called Zaire), Liberia, Guinea-Bissau, Eretrea, Malawai ... do you really me to go through the whole list? You do? ... Malwai, Ethopia, Sierra Leone, Niger, Afghanistan (big problem solved there), Togo, Guinea, Uganda, Madagascar, the Central African Republic, Nepal, Myanmar, Rwanda, Mozambique, Timor-Leste, the Gambia -- we've only used 0.27 percent of GDP to this point, by the way -- Bangladesh (which has 162 million people), Tanzania, Burkina Faso, Mali, Lesotho, Ghana, Haiti, Tajikistan, Comoros, Cambodia, Laos, Benin, Kenya, Chad, The Soloman Islands and Kyrgyzistan. Next up is India, which, while growing, still consumes only 2 percent of world GDP. Then Nicaragua, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, Mauritania, Pakistan (another problem solved), Senegal, São Tomé and Príncipe, Côte d'Ivoire, Zambia, Yemen, Cameroon, Djibouti, Papua New Guinea, Kiribati, Nigeria (another pretty big country -- we've now got only about 1.4 points of GDP left), Guyana, the Sudan, Bolivia (our first foray into South America), Moldova, Honduras, the Philippines, Sra Lanka, Mongolia, Bhutan and Egypt.
At this point, we've used up 4.4 points of GDP. Indonesia is next on the list of lowest per-capita GDPs. But unfortunately we can't quite fit them into the budget so we'll spare them, opting instead for Vanauatu, Tonga, Paragua, Morocco, Syria, Swaziland, Samoa, Guatemala, Georgia (the country -- not the place where they have Chik-Fil-A), the other Congo, and Iraq. Skipping China, we then get to Armenia, Jordan, Cape Verde, the Maldives -- and another big bunch of skips follows here since we're very low on budget -- Fiji and finally Namibia. Collectively, these countries consume 4.99997 percent of the world's GDP. There's absolutely no budget left for anyone else -- not even St. Vincent and the Grenadines, which would be a great band name, BTW.
So, we'll have to settle for just these 81 countries, which collectively have a mere 2,865,623,000 people, or about 43 percent of the world's population.
Still, that's not too bad for a day's work. We've gotten rid of almost all of Sub-Saharan Africa, destroyed the entire Indian subcontinent, created a big lake in South America, turned El Salvador into an island, and solved a lot of our problems in the Middle East. I suspect we could also have nuked North Korea, by the way, except that the IMF didn't publish information for them.
Coincidentally, or not, a lot of these countries are located in the tropics, where global warming would probably have its most pernicious effects. True, they would probably not be entirely eradicated even under some of the worst-case, fattest-tail climate change assumptions. But if you reduced their GDPs by, say, 40 percent, it would look like mere rounding error on the world scene.
6.29.2009
How To Destroy (Almost) Half the Planet for the Low, Low Price of Just 5% of Global GDP
by Nate Silver @ 2:10 AM...see also cap-and-trade, environment, international
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106 comments
RIP Billy Mays. :(
On topic - I know it will certainly be more expensive in the short-term, but I fail to see how sustainability is a bad thing.
Nicely done, Nate. Just incredible to think how such a standard economic measurement fails to capture so many people and societies.
Well done!!!
Quite a sadistic analysis, but it gets the point across.
It's axiomatic that an unsustainable system will not be sustained.
We can either build a renewable energy infrastructure before we run out of fossil fuels or we can run out of fossil fuels without building a replacement infrastructure. I honestly don't know which way to bet.
Indeed. Global warming will have devastating effects on the countries which have the lowest influence on world GDP... Us Canadians, Americans and Europeans will be the least affected. Heck, some of us will benefit from it... Canada, for instance. It's farmland area will increase, since it'll get warmer temperatures further north.
I'm no economist, but isn't a 5% GDP shrinking in any given country a very significant economic change likely to mark a recession? Why is there any reason to believe that a global 5% shrinking would be any different?
I'm sorry, but I do not see the purpose behind this post.
I do not believe Manzi (or anyone) says the 5% reduction will occur in this state-by-state fashion. More likely, it will be more evenly spread out across the globe (with greater benefits in some areas and greater dangers in others).
BTW: Why is Somalia still on the map? Shouldn't their GDP make them one of the first to go in your scenario? Or, are GDP numbers not available for them?
The question on whether or not we should do something about climate change... and how much we should do, largely comes down to two questions:
1.) What type of discounting should we apply to policies that have implications that span multiple generations?
2.) How do we measure the impacts of climate change? If not in GDP -- which has problems including the one you point out -- then what?
Mishka, the point is that a 5% decrease in GDP could mean either a 5% decrease everywhere (not that bad), or a very concentrated loss of wealth/industry (40-something percent of the world population dieing). It's going to be neither, of course, but somewhere in the middle.
Nevertheless, Manzi talks about it as if the first scenario is going to apply - a perfectly spread out 5% loss of GDP. This is not what is going to happen; he misrepresents (I'd wager involuntarily) the effects of the GDP loss, and he makes it appear GCC won't change much at all anywhere, while this is clearly not true. Some areas will suffer more then others, and the loss of 5% of GDP might mean billions of lives - and that's what Nate was pointing out.
You know that is any Democrat proposed a new policy idea that would shrink the United States GDP by 5% conservatives would be driven batshit berserk, let alone proposing to decrease the GDP of the planet bt 5%.
Excellent post.
This is one of your best posts, Nate. But fix some of the spellings of those countries. :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtbn9zBfJSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtbn9zBfJSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtbn9zBfJSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtbn9zBfJSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtbn9zBfJSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtbn9zBfJSs
GDP is a strange measure to illustrate the expected loss to the world economy because of climate change.
Consider that GDP is the aggregate of economic activity. So, a 5% reduction does not really measure the effect on the well-being of the population. A large part of the GDP will be the moneys spend on alleviating expenses needed to safeguard cities and countries from rising sea levels that could be as much as several meters. Such GDP could well be as much as 10 or 20% leaving the amount left for people friendly spending reduced by 15 to 25%.
That would be a real disaster.
A. Smith said...
Heck, some of us will benefit from it... Canada, for instance. It's farmland area will increase, since it'll get warmer temperatures further north.
Presuming, of course, that all other conditions (such as average annual precipitation?) remain the same - but they won't.
It's called GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE for a reason.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Mike
I agree. The system is too complex for anybody to be able to accurately predict what the next set-point might be.
C'mon. Manzi's point is that even if the scare scenarios are correct, the cure is worse than the disease.
There is no shortage of fossil fuel energy now or will there anytime within ours or our children's lifetime, and probably much longer than that. There are enormous new supplies that become more economically feasible at higher prices, so the thought of hyperbolic prices if we don't somehow replace oil is silly talk.
Climate change theory has scant evidence to support it, and depite the contrary evidence continuing to build quickly, Luddites want to use that as a weapon to suppress normal energy use. That is the economic danger, not climate change.
Innovation happens when it needs to, not because some politicians want to snap their fingers and have it be so.
Ahh, the deniers come out to play. How nice for them.
The reality is arguably bleaker than Nate projects, because it isn't like people who can (those who don't live in totalitarian regimes) are going to hang out as the increased temps turn their homes into deserts (LA and Phoenix excepted only as long as they can keep importing water at ridiculously subsidized rates). Similarly, folks will have to retreat from flooded areas. Rapidly increasing population density may well have cascading effects no one can realistically project.
I wonder how this all changes if you measure climate change damage in global utility (with decreasing marginal income effects) instead of GDP, which is a woefully inadequate welfare yardstick.
Then again, you'd never even get close to having a global consensus on how exactly to measure "welfare", but I'm willing to bet $1 of GDP means a lot more in Burundi than it does here in the US.
Mishka,
That's what I noticed first. Why did Nate spare my home country, somalia? I guess the IMF does not have data for somalia. If Nate had gone with the CIA figures, somalia would've been the first to go!
Rudy,
Climate change theory has little evidence? Wow. Did you reach that conclusion based on your extensive study of climate data?
OK
If that bill the house passed actually became law. US GDP would decrease by at least 10%.
Thankfully just like healthcare the middle will win out. I swear I'm not quite there yet but sometimes you liberals scare me more than the conservatives.
@Nate: coupla typos.
Sra Lanka?
"it varies greatly across counties." Countries?
@nova:
If you think that Waxman-Markey is the environmental movement's preferred bill, then you haven't been paying attention. A lot of liberals are very concerned about a lot of aspects of this bill (emissions cuts not high enough, giving away 85-90% of allowances for free, etc). Making big concessions was the only way to get it passed.
That said, it's probably still too green to pass the Senate, at least for the time being. But the good news is that they can sit on it for a few months and focus on health care, then come back to it next spring when the economy is (hopefully) looking much better and support for the measure is stronger.
@Rudy: "climate change theory has scant evidenct to support it."
Dude, you've got to be kidding me.
"innovation happens when it needs to, not because some politicians want to snap their fingers and have it be so."
True to a point, but only to a point. Innovation is a natural response to changes in the market...if politicans make laws that change the market--like, for example, making it much more expensive to burn fossil fuels--then innovation will respond in kind and the development of substitute energy sources will increase.
As for this post, I think Nate's point is that a 5% GDP reduction is anything but trivial. Most people are inherently bad with numbers and percentages, and it's nice to know what 5% of GDP actually is.
More typos
Malwai (Malawi)
Ethopia (Ethiopia)
There may be more, I am squinting as it is.
So in essence you wanted a tougher bill then. Lets have GDP drop 15% then perfect. Now I am scared thats officialy ecofascist territory. I am so glad the senate is a buffer on this and healthcare.
Let's see, can we choose which states to vote off the planet first?
How about the pointy one -- Florida?
Or maybe we should cut a canal and create a 6th Great Lake in Death Valley? We can call it Death Lake.
5% reduction over 100 years works out to .05% per year. Meanwhile, the cost of W-M is estimated by the CBO at 0.15% of GDP per year- and the CBO's analysis didn't actual test for GDP shrinkage, so it would actually be many times greater.
Your map looks scary, but it's a classic way of lying with statistics. The states of California and New York total nearly 5% of global GDP, but removing them wouldn't have nearly the scare impact of taking out African states with small economies but lots of landmass.
C'mon, Nate! You're better than this!
@ ayleakle & Berk Bear
The key issue is whether or not CO2 causes global warming.
It is indisputable that there has been some warming over the previous hundred years. It is also indisputable that there have been far greater climate swings during recorded history and that garnered from ice cores.
It is indisputable that CO2 proportion of the atmosphere has edged up steadily. it is also indisputable that CO2 proportion ha been much higher at other times in history, based on ice cores.
What is not apparent is whether
CO2 causes or is the result of warming. Correlation is not causation, and even the correlation isn't strong. On long-term charts, CO2 appears to lag temperature, not vice versa.
The inability and inaccuracy of climate models to make accurate forecasts of temperatures definitively means that other factors beside CO2 are involved that the science does not understand, and that those factors are more important than CO2.
Without evidence of CO2 causation, it is foolhardy to take such extreme mitigation efforts.
One can argue the theoretical impact of CO2 all day long, but the acchilles heel is evidence. I know that's frustrating to the denier-deniers, but the case is terrible. CO2 would be acquitted at trial.
@nova:
I didn't say I supported a stronger bill or a 15% GDP cut. I just stated a fact, which is that the bill is already a big compromise that environmental advocates aren't crazy about, and it will likely become an even bigger compromise in the Senate. I also took issue with your point that there's "scant evidence" supporting climate change theory, as this simply isn't true. The scientific debate, to the extent there still is one, centers around the extent to which man is responsible for the climate changing, not whether it's changing at all or whether man is at least partially responsible.
However, I'm all in favor of discussing the true costs and benefits of climate change. Responding to GCC will require a mix of intervention and mitigation strategies (it's too late to stop GCC, that much is clear), and in order to find the right mix, we need to understand the economic consequences of our actions (and inactions, for that matter).
@ mngoose33
Manipulating the economics is coersion, not free-market. Unless the economics change for all global players, all you've accomplished is hurting the economy.
Annie Clark already performs as St. Vincent. Guess she just needs a backing band.
And that is the dirty little secret.... the people who would suffer most in the future are the people WE WOULD LIKE TO GET RID OF.
Powerful diatribe on a topic that can never be discussed too much (the nasty global maldistribution of wealth).
Not so great rebuttal of the Manzi argument though. I have no idea how people can possibly determine the GDP effects of a bill as complicated as Waxman with any accuracy, but if I understand correctly, I think that what Manzi and others are getting at is if you instead banked the money bills like that will lose for the west, it could be used to pay off the 5% global GDP deficit and then some.
And for those of you saying that global GDP is a flawed metric (and I am among you), can you please suggest a better one? Because all I can think of is it's pretty damn hard to quantify the sentimental value of farmers losing their ancestral land or indigenous island people losing their spiritual home or whatever.
still huge nate-tha-great fan though.
@Nate: Eritrea, not Eretrea
Very interesting post Nate.
Having conducted an analysis of the global energy system (publicly available here: http://www.abglobalwealthmanagement.com/CmsObjectABGWM/PDFs/ClimateChange_final_BER-4569-1207.pdf) but not the Waxman bill in particular, I believe that people overestimate the cost of abating emissions.
My analysis suggests that the world could reduce electric power emissions of CO2 by more than 40% by 2030 with a peak cost (relative to what would be spent on power infrastructure anyway) of 0.24% of GDP.
Embedded in this analysis, the US could reduce electric power emissions by almost 80% come 2030 with a peak incremental cost of 0.1% of gdp.
Although they incorporate some adoption of solar and wind power, these forecasts do require large-scale builds of nuclear and carbon-sequestering coal technology, and therein lies the rub.
At some point, the politicians are going to have to come to terms with the fact that, by pushing for renewable sources of electricity, they are raising the costs of emissions abatement, perhaps at the expense of actually abating emissions.
It will be interesting to see if any climate change legislation that passes becomes quickly politically untenable due to the rising prices of electric power experienced by constituents. If so, it is likely that the forced adoption of renewable energy will be disproportionately to blame.
As someone who cares deeply about curbing CO2 emissions, I worry that the environmental movement will sacrifice the main goal (reducing greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere) for the sake of an adjacent (and, in my mind, unrelated) issue (subsidizing alternative energy technologies for the uncertain hope that they will soon be economically competitive).
Agreed that manipulating the market through regulation is not free market. No argument here. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it anyway. Clearly, some free markets have externalities that pose significant social costs that private firms don't account for when making decisions. That's the whole point of regulation. Some free markets operate efficiently, and some don't. Are you arguing that the CO2 "market" is operating efficiently and does not need to be regulated? That would mean that there is no social cost to putting more CO2 in the atmosphere. If that's your belief, fair enough.
However, I do agree with you that we need to change the economics for all global players (and I assume you're talking about China/India here). Hopefully the upcoming COP in Copenhagen will spur action.
But to me, that's not a strong argument for not taking action on the problem at home. Businesses will pass the costs of complying w/ the legislation on to consumers, and that's why it's so important that we include energy subsidies for low-income people who can't afford higher energy costs. The bill attempts to do this, although not as well as it could if the allowances were sold to companies instead of (mostly) given away.
It doesn't matter what your opinion is on global warming, the statement that it will only result in a 5% reduction in global GDP in 100 years is no evidence against the bill.
We need to firstly realize that we are not just talking about a one-time sudden drop in GDP, but rather a drop that grows over time and through perpetuity.
Take the following assumptions (1) GDP is a constant (In reality, it will naturally grow in the long run) (2) GDP loss from global warming is a constantly increasing rate.
We find that in just those 100 years, the world will effectively lose something like 252.45% of its GDP. And, this is assuming that GDP does not naturally grow. This loss would be even higher otherwise.
Then we have to consider the future after the 100 years. We can only assume that if we let global warming grow to the point where it has a 5% impact of GDP, it is likely that it will not stop after 100 years. This is the scary part.
I'm not actually going to run the numbers to determine the present value of global warming mainly because no one really has any idea what the numbers are. But in the briefest of looks we could spend as much as 250% of GLOBAL GDP to prevent global warming and still come out considerably ahead provided we manage the investments properly and time things efficently to minimize the loss due to the cost of capital.
Basically, it just goes to show that claiming global warming will result in a 5% loss of global GDP is more evidence for green investments than against it.
@bmw:
Great point about keeping our priorities straight wrt cutting emissions vs. subsidizing alternative energy sources. They are often confused as the same thing, but this isn't necessarily true. We can make a lot of progress just by doing what we already do (i.e., burn coal like it's going out of style) more efficiently.
I think that CCS is crucial to this whole thing...not just for the US, but especially for China/India who are just now starting to burn their coal resources. I haven't looked at the science closely in the last couple of years, but my understanding is that capturing the carbon is relatively easy, but storing it is really, really difficult (after all, it's gotta stay in the ground forever). How close are we? Your model sounds interesting, but I wonder if it assumes too much about the widespread availability of CCS? I'll be sure to read your paper!
What about Vatican City? They are technically an independent country and how much world GDP can they possibly account for?
Don't you guys miss the huge hidden point in all this? Afghanistan didn't have an economy, but poverty there led to some decidedly negative effects for us. Don't you think that would happen MUCH MUCH MUCH more if states started failing left and right from drought/flood/famine/freezing and the world balances of resources went all haywire?
This guy's argument not only demonstrates how cold and inhuman a conservative economist is if he just looks at GDP, but also how big a fool he is for only looking at those numbers.
obsesc: To irrationally devote one's resources to sucking-up.
Nate: What a thought-provoking article! You are the greatest. I read you every day. And you're so right about St Vincent and the Grenadines.
Josh: Aww, man, and I thought I'd got there first:
http://www.rockband.com/users/MrMauve/bands/St+Vincent+and+the+Grenadines
@mngoose33
From an economic standpoint, it's the capturing that is difficult and the storing that is easy.
In the United States there is plenty of storage capacity (room for roughly 4 trillion tonnes while globally we emit 30 billion tonnes of CO2 per year), but there are some regional discrepancies (Japan, for example, likely won't be able to rely heavily on CCS).
The difficulty on the storage side is more regulatory than scientific. Although the cost of monitoring a CO2 plume is relatively low the government will have to serve as an intermediary in the process (the private markets are not very well equipped to handle century-length obligations and guarantees).
The more likely stumbling block for CCS is the amount of energy required strip CO2 out of an exhaust stream (which makes the process very costly). In addition, producers need regulatory certainty (and thus, some carbon price-certainty) in order to justify investment in such a facility.
That said, today there are enhanced oil recovery operations that have signed contracts to take anthropogenic CO2 off of industrial facilities hands, which CO2 they will ultimately sequester, so the ball is already rolling; we just need the regulation to catch up...
Also, Rudy:
There is no shortage of fossil fuel energy now or will there anytime within ours or our children's lifetime, and probably much longer than that. There are enormous new supplies that become more economically feasible at higher prices, so the thought of hyperbolic prices if we don't somehow replace oil is silly talk.
"Hyperbolic" oil prices might be a little off the mark, but we can make a good case for exponential:
1. Yes, rising price is an incentive to drill for harder-to-reach oil reserves, but everyone else has to work to be able to pay for the oil, and the amount of work you can do depends upon the price of energy.
2. When the energy cost of extracting the oil rises to match the energy you get from burning it, it doesn't matter how much you can sell it for: the game is over and you have lost.
Rudy
the 'trial' is scientific peer review, and global climate change/warming has won that case hands down. The deniers have a PR campaign, not evidence.
Cap and Trade is not a tax! Everyone seems to be forgetting this. Rates will be higher until better technology comes along and people reduce overall CO2 output.
@Rudy
"Without evidence of CO2 causation, it is foolhardy to take such extreme mitigation efforts"
Technically, you can't even prove that cigarettes cause lung cancer. You cannot prove causation with the scientific method.
By your logic, we should still allow ten-year-olds to buy cigs at the candy store.
Lack of education is literally going to put this country under water.
Brilliant angle of view Nate.
Many humans are inclined to ignore our collective hand in the mass extinction that global climate change will bring upon our fellow life forms on this planet.
Rudy said...
What is not apparent is whether CO2 causes or is the result of warming.
Another demonstration of the lack of knowledge 'Rudy' has on the subject, but wants his 'economic theories' to be taken as the gospel truth.
'Rudy' - Why don't you try to educate yourself a bit on why carbon dioxide is called a 'greenhouse gas'?
One place to start might be:
http://www.pa.msu.edu/sciencet/ask_st/083194.html
Warning: Scientific FACT is printed on that page.
Warning: Scientific FACT may interfere with, or even conflict with, some or all of your 'Through the Looking Glass' economic 'theories'.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
@Rudy
"Without evidence of CO2 causation, it is foolhardy to take such extreme mitigation efforts.
One can argue the theoretical impact of CO2 all day long, but the acchilles heel is evidence. I know that's frustrating to the denier-deniers, but the case is terrible. CO2 would be acquitted at trial."
Why, because you need to feel all important and tell us all how it is? Newsflash: the increases in temperature over the last century are spectacularly fast compared to ANY previous increase. In which case, correlation DOES equal causation. If you don't understand the evidence, don't spout off like an expert. As for foolhardy extreme mitigation efforts, the only thing foolhardy is screaming toward a cliff at 100 mph without any brakes. What people of your ilk conveniently ignore is that in all likelihood, there are tipping points beyond which catastrophic changes will occur. Not too big on the geologic timescale, but certainly good enough to chlorinate the gene pool a little. I suggest a law requiring all those who are against mitigation to register with the government, and for all their descendents to be registered, and be ineligible for any help should the fit hit the shan. The same way the sick and the stupid are pushed to the outside of the herd in nature to be eaten by the predators. Put up or shut up.
I'm curious, this 5% shrinkage of GDP, is that 5% of real wealth creation, or the fabricated bubble BS passing for wealth creation in the last 3 decades? If the latter, then we really don't have a problem paying for it, do we? Unfortunately, we still allow billionaires to play roulette with the world's economy even after this catastrophic economic meltdown, so it will be at least one more round before everyone wakes up, gives their head a shake. We need to decide that people shouldn't be able to make millions or billions of dollars a year doing nothing other than shifting money from one place to another a dozen times a day. REAL economic growth comes from building something, improving something, inventing something, discovering something, rediscovering something, or other forms of human advancement, NOT PARASITISM. We'll be fine once we flush these human versions of the tape-worm into the sewer where they belong.
Of course, the main problem with Manzi's analysis is that you can't just say "Oh global GDP will shrink by 5%" because of the loss of productive land and so forth.
You have to look at how it's going to disproportionately affect different populations and especially how much population will be *displaced*. They won't just starve within their borders and leave the rest of us alone. Bangladesh is largely lowlands, for example. If large parts of Bangladesh are claimed by the sea, you're talking about tens of millions, if not over a hundred million people being displaced. So perhaps India's land will be affected less - but they will also be absorbing millions and millions of Bangladeshis.
Large parts of Florida will be covered in water. LA, Las Vegas and Phoenix, etc. might become prohibitively expensive due to water shortages. All in all, I don't think it would be exaggerating to say that in Manzi's scenario of "only" 5% GDP, hundreds of millions of people will be displaced - which surely would cause many other effects on the world economy. And that's IF, and that's a huge if, we assume that these large migrations won't result in warfare which would further damage economies.
"There are a couple of economic points that can be raised against this, the most persuasive of which has to do with the possibility of "fat tail" events like warming of 10-20 degrees C, which appear unlikely based on present knowledge but which cannot entirely be ruled out, and which would effectively destroy the world economy if not civilization itself."
I believe that the "fat tail" is much fatter than most people think. Our world's climate is changing much faster than even the most pessimistic of climate models have predicted in the past. I think the current estimates of only a 3 to 6 foot rise in sea levels by the end of the century are too optimistic.
While extreme warming (10-20 degrees C) would melt both the Greenland and Antarctic ice caps, raising ocean levels by about 300 feet, I expect something more like 50 to 100 feet by 2100. As you suggest, most likely enough to destroy the world economy. And the tipping point to one of these bad scenarios will likely come long before the world (especially the U.S.) decides to combat global warming.
Sigh. I'm glad that I won't be around to see these changes, but unfortunately my daughter and her children will be.
Nate,
While I believe this post does a good job of debunking the idea that 5% of global GDP is "not that much damage," I don't believe that idea is central to Manzi's hypothesis.
In my opinion, Manzi never states clearly whether or not he considers global warming potentially highly damage form an economic point of view. Given Manzi's posts in general, I suspect he would consider 5% damage to the world economy quite damaging. What Manzi has stated clearly is that a) the UN estimates on the economic damage of global warming are not very high compared to the rhetoric surrounding the potential damage of global warming and b) the economic damage of global warming is not very high compared to the economic damage of the proposed solutions to global warming
The second point is the REAL heart of Manzi's argument. He feels that the cost of Waxman-Markely is extremely high compared to its benefit. His estimate of the benefit of W-M is that it would avoid future economic costs to the US economy of 0.08% of GDP at a current cost of 0.8% of GDP. He gets to these figures while trying to use estimates of costs that he feels are unrealistically low, and using damage figures from the latest UN report. Even if you follow his calculations, and up the damage from GW to 5% of world GDP (he is using 3% in his calculations) and take into account the future savings from world GDP (he only uses GW damage to US GDP), the cost benefit comes out terrible: you spend something like 0.16% of World GDP now to prevent future damage of 0.125% of World GDP. (My figures are rough, I used a simple conversion factor of 5 for US GDP vs. world GDP, which overestimates future savings and underestimates current costs).
Being generally pro action on climate change myself, I intend to do some more digging on some of Manzi's claims and calculations before I accept his positions, but his arguments are at least initially quite persuasive. Note that Manzi does not advocate doing completely nothing about global warming. He advocates investing in targeted research for solutions that would protect us from the chance that current climate science underestimates the worse case scenario.
Nate. I love you man.
Rudy wrote (in part): "C'mon. Manzi's point is that even if the scare scenarios are correct, the cure is worse than the disease."
Are you including all scare scenarios in that evaluation?
"Climate change theory has scant evidence to support it, and despite the contrary evidence continuing to build quickly, Luddites want to use that as a weapon to suppress normal energy use. That is the economic danger, not climate change."
Please be so good as to jump over to realclimate.org and discuss this "contrary evidence."
This would be a more entertaining map with the lowest gross GDP countries excluded rather than the lower per capita ones.
OK, so when was global GDP last 95% of what it is now? 2007.
So the global economic contraction would send the world spiralling back to 2007? I can live with that.
-----
Two economists were walking down the street when they came across a dog turd. First economist says to the second "I'll give you $5,000 if you eat that". The second economist thinks "I need a new car..." so he agrees.
A while later they pass another dog turd and the second ecopnomist tries an experiment: he offers the first economist $5,000 if this time HE will eat the dog turd. The first economist would sort of like his $5,000 back, so he agrees.
A bit further on, he first economist laughs and says to the second "You know, people watching us would think we're both crazy." And the second economist laughs with him and says "Yeah, but the joke's on them because they don't know that we just increased GDP by ten grand" :)
--------
Not all GDP is worth keeping.
Found an error: Western Sahara is considered to be a part of Morocco according the IMF. You have it colored in blue.
At least the Aral Sea will have water in it again
Nobel economist Thomas Schelling's take on GDP and climate change:
"Agriculture is practically
the only sector of the economy affected by climate, and it contributes only a small
percentage, 3% in the United States, of national income. If agricultural productivity were
drastically reduced by climate change, the cost of living would rise by 1 or 2%, and at a
time when per capita income will likely have doubled"
Guess economists don't have to worry about eating, huh?
Ken said:
Guess economists don't have to worry about eating, huh?
Probably not, especially Nobel Prize winning economists!
Now what they do with the fallout from the Indian-Chinese nuclear war over the remaining food supplies is another story...
Oh, my. The big guns have come out. Someone invoked realclimate.org -- the scientific equivalent of the DailyKos. The kings of the settled science crowd. Too busy and too important to be bothered by anyone who isn't a highly-credentialed scientist ready to duel mano-a-mano with their own peer-reviewed studies. Haughtiness at its finest.
The crux of their contention, as much as my feeble mind can understand is that unless skepitcs can disprove their contentions, that their prevailing theory must be viewed as true. Quite a turning-on-its-head of the scientific method.
Well, this stuff is complicated, but a lot is solve-by-inspection kind of stuff. If the alarmist camp can't do any better than to try to bully a position through, it won't be long before the public really understands that the emporor wears no clothes.
After all of the whinnying in the comments above, not one comment addressed the points I made earlier about evidence of CO2 being a lagging indicator rather than a leading one or that there are huge inconsstncies in the historical record that wouldn't be so if CO2 were the causation factor that the alarmists would have you believe.
I have never met a great scientist whose explanation consisted of: I'm smarter than you, so my opinion is right. Duh, we all get it that IF all of the things like polar ice caps melting would be bad if it happened, what is absolutely not clear is that it is man-caused or that our efforts to mitigate would have any effect. Just because there's a immeasurably slight possibility we might be doomed is no reason to commit suicide in advance.
This was a truly excellent post and points out just how dismally poor a large portion of the planet's population really is. It's also pretty accurate, if not a little conservative, as it should be obvious that the poorest countries (often those with the highest birth rates) will suffer both the most and the earliest.
It's interesting to see which countries are left. I would not have picked Gabon, Equatorial Guinea, Angola, and Botswana as having higher GDP per capita than Egypt. (I'm assuming that Western Sahara and Somalia are there only because of lack of data.) Also, that El Salvador and Panama are significantly higher than Honduras and Nicaragua. Or that Vietnam is still so low.
Rudy said:
The crux of their contention, as much as my feeble mind can understand is that unless skepitcs can disprove their contentions, that their prevailing theory must be viewed as true. Quite a turning-on-its-head of the scientific method.
I'm glad you understand your limitations. :-)
In all seriousness, you need to brush up on the scientific method. In the early days of a theory, it is usually up to its proponents to show that it really represents the world. But once scientists have accepted the theory, it is usually up to its opponents to show proof that it is not true.
A theory is never absolutely true - Newton's theory of Universal Gravitation was shown to be of limited truth by Einstein's theories of Special Relativity and General Relativity. But Einstein had to prove that Newton's theory was wrong, which was a quite contentious process that took a long time.
The theory of Anthropogenic Global Warming has been accepted by the vast majority of climate scientists. If you don't like it, go ahead and prove it false (but you have to get most of those climate scientists to agree with you).
Note that you will never get complete agreement among scientists. Einstein, for example, never believed in quantum mechanics as a completed theory.
I would also add that most of the few scientists against AGW are not climate scientists. I consider their opinions to be of limited value.
I have never met a great scientist whose explanation consisted of: I'm smarter than you, so my opinion is right.
I haven't either. I believe most would say "Educate yourself so we can have an intelligent discussion." I would recommend you go for a PhD in climate science.
Just because there's a immeasurably slight possibility we might be doomed is no reason to commit suicide in advance.
Since you are unlikely to be in an automobile accident, why bother to have insurance? Obviously you shouldn't need medical insurance either.
Given that the worst-case scenario of AGW is the end of human civilization, it would seem reasonable to me to have some insurance (i.e. take some preventive actions) to see that this does not happen.
I mostly lurk here, but, well...let's assume just for a second that the various climate change denial people have a credible, although not airtight, case.
If a hurricane was heading for your house, and people were bitterly divided over whether it would smash it down or barely miss, you'd still get the hell out, wouldn't you?
Global warming is nothing compared to the economic disaster that fisheries biologists are predicting a few decades from now as we completely wipe out all commercial fisheries.
5% of GDP gone will look like the good old days.
Excellent treatise, Nate. And for all those who say "if not GDP, then what?" - how about human life, health and welfare? Since when are we little humans here for the benefit of the world economy? Silly me, I thought it was the other way around.
@ everyone but Rudy
Jonathan Swift would be proud, Nate. This is a tremendous post. The comments are a good way at improving it. Don't let the topic of conversation be derailed by noise. Rudy's ignorance is a decoy and should be ignored.
Pardon my taking some precise language and making some imprecise comments.
The fat tail is getting obese, and increasingly likely. Lately we've been breaking a lot of records, and it appears that unless we can move past business as usual the more rapid "extreme" projections are not so extreme.
I think this will become obvious enough for even the obtuse in the next couple of years. Unfortunately, some of them are powerful, wealthy, and have guns. Can you imagine what things are going to be like once it gets really catastrophic.
Not mentioned enough is the cost of mitigation of the increasing number of climate disasters such as floods and fires (not to mention beetle infestations, disease, and the like)? This is becoming a serious drain on our economy now.
Hey, enough with the typos already. Who cares?
Rudy: "After all of the whinnying in the comments above, not one comment addressed the points I made earlier about evidence of CO2 being a lagging indicator rather than a leading one or that there are huge inconsstncies in the historical record that wouldn't be so if CO2 were the causation factor that the alarmists would have you believe."
That's because you're arbitrarily selecting a time period where atmospheric CO2 concentration didn't have a dominant role in changing the climate. This study terms climate changes prior to 1850 as "preanthropogenic", because solar variability and volcanism explained climatic changes at that time (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/5477/270). A more thorough review of the scientific literature may be in order for you.
Perhaps the measure should be which course of action (towards global warming) will kill the fewest people?
As a society we seem to get quite outraged over the murder of a few thousand people, but somehow we have a hard time focusing on the fact that letting global warming proceed will kill tens of millions.
Even if we are not sure that changing our behavior will be able to stop global warming, we have to realize that we are gambling with millions of peoples lives. If that means that gas will have to go up to 5 or 6 dollars a gallon and we have to pay $.50/Kwhr for solar and wind power, then we have to do it, or we are just selfish murderers.
The upside is that all the stuff we need to do to stop global warming (and save millions of lives) is the same stuff we need to do to have a sustainable society, which is something we need to do anyway before the oil runs out, so it is not like it will be wasted money even if it is not necessary.
Michael, that is exactly what's wrong with the posture of this debate by the alarmists. They are positioning it in a Chicken Little sense because they recognize that they cannot possibly develop any concrete evidence to support the wild-eyed theory within any relevant political time frame. That's not science.
The science is full of contradictions, and the era of bullying through the alarmist case through friendly channels without adequately considering the skeptic case is over.
Why is it so hard to hold the alarmist camp to any standards of forward-looking evidence? Temperatures are not increasing worldwide, the IPCC temperature projections have been far off the mark, and the arctic polar ice cap is presently well behind its seasonal melt trend.
In the meantime, their only tool to refute skeptics is arrogance and ridicule for not being alarmed, The "what if we're right?" argument for drastic action is insufficient.
Rudy: Bullshit.
http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png
The air temperature may fluctuate, and every 1998 that comes along gives you a chance to cherry-pick your data and spread confusion, but the ocean will keep getting warmer and will find you out.
Mr. Mauve, please dispense with the offensive language in lieu of coherence. I have no idea what you're talking about; I meade no mention of 1998, only of present data and erroneous forecasting results.
You might want to take a peek at your web site reference yourself. I know that site used to be the poster child for "proof" of the icecap melting, but you'll notice that it shows the ice presently is, in fact, higher than the 2007 reading and has been consistently so. Don't think that fits in with the model projections either.
How are there not more well-informed contararians on this site playing devil's advocate and taking Rudy's side? You guys are telling me that the "alarmist" argument is so airtight that you don't even want to try? Some of you sound pretty well informed and must certainly be capable of making the "skeptic" argument better.
Put India back and you could get a whole slew of other countries, starting with Somalia (which I'm rather amazed is still hanging out there.)
tcalvin wrote (in part): "Don't let the topic of conversation be derailed by noise. Rudy's ignorance is a decoy and should be ignored."
Unfortunately, that sort of willful ignorance still holds considerable political influence — as shown by the closeness of the vote on Waxman-Markey.
I don't think we can afford to ignore it any longer. The stakes are too high.
Rudy wrote: "You might want to take a peek at your web site reference yourself. I know that site used to be the poster child for "proof" of the icecap melting, but you'll notice that it shows the ice presently is, in fact, higher than the 2007 reading and has been consistently so. Don't think that fits in with the model projections either."
That image shows the 2009 ice extent is indeed slightly higher than it was in 2007. But it is lower than the 1979-2000 average at every point. Also, if you look at the right-hand portion of the blue line, you'll see it falling faster than the average.
Now let's consider ice volume. The sources say it is considerably less than in previous years. So what we have is a quick spring increase of thin ice which melts back just as rapidly.
Just as with temperature, you can't disprove a long-term trend in ice coverage by citing a brief movement in the opposite direction.
No response to me, Rudy? You can say the science is full of contractions, but the example you gave about CO2---the one you insisted deserved a response---certainly wasn't one. Why the silence once it's been addressed?
To the other "contradictions":
Temperatures: "Global surface temperature has increased ≈0.2°C per decade in the past 30 years, similar to the warming rate predicted in the 1980s in initial global climate model simulations with transient greenhouse gas changes" (PNAS 2006). IPCC projections aren't the only ones out there, so it's misleading to point solely to them.
Arctic ice cap melt: "Although there is large interannual and regional variability in the length of the melt season, the Arctic is experiencing an overall lengthening of the melt season at a rate of about 2 weeks decade -1" (Annals of Glaciology 2006). Arguing that individual years contradict the longer term trend is also misleading. In addition, projections has been shown to be too modest (BBC 2007).
Two edits: Eritrea, not Eretrea, and Sri Lanka, not Sra Lanka
Brandon, excuse me for slighting your comment. I didn't comment because you were redundant with what I said about inconsistency in the data. What you pointed out is one of the inconsistencies.
You also said I was selecting arbitrary time frames, but any time frame is essentially arbitrary, including the 1850 date cited in the article from 2000 you referenced. My focus is on forward-looking data, not back-fitted data, which necessarily defines the time frame.
The fact that temperatures and CO2 data have been diverging for numerous years cannot be summarily dismissed to volatility. Something else is happening, and the fact that the climate models do not and can not account for those unknown or poorly understood factors necessarily leaves the other forecasted results in doubt.
Naturally, there are some forecasted results that are going to be correct in even the most-flawed model, and it seems that your rebuttal to the flawed forecasting relies on the tried-and-true motto, "if you can't forecast, forecast small and forecast often." I'm not trying to argue my own scientific theories, which would be ill-informed. I'm pointing out the immaturity of the alarmist case.
For scientific hypothoses to advance from theory to accepted fact requires forward demonstrability. The alarmist case is an enormous extrapolation, subject to huge error. That is insufficient to be the basis for draconian and expensive policy changes.
For cpwinter, in case you're also feeling slighted, if you look at the chart closely and also the pictures at the same site, the differences between periods is extremely small, and by all accounts, the 1979-2000 baseline in the chart was a period of heavier-than-normal ice. Longer-term data shows significant volatility. Your argument is essentially the same as Brandon's -- that one arbitrary period is better than another arbitrary period. Similarly, the current data does not fit the alarmist case, no matter the rationalization. What is totally unknown, because of insufficient data and immature science, is what broader cyclicality might be involved.
I'll again let you others have the last word in this thread, if desired.
So, according to Rudy, one arbitrary period is no better than any other arbitrary period for evaluating the direction of a trend in physical data. This fits perfectly with the Denialist tactic of picking any arbitrary period that shows what they prefer.
Here's the crux of the matter: In the present period (which we can't arbitrarily shift away from) we see melting glaciers, thinning ice sheets, shorter and shallower winters, and many other effects of rising global temperatures. The CO2 we are adding to the atmosphere looks like the most probable cause of that.
If we begin a program to cut back on burning fossil fuels, and at some point we find this unnecessary, we can always stop that program.
On the other hand, if we do nothing, and later find the dire predictions have come to pass, our options will be less desirable.
Rudy:
I'd go crazy trying to explain the realities of climate science to you, so I'll simply make the following comments:
1. Even if you're right, and higher prices lead to new fossil fuel sources, those much higher prices will be a terrible economic burden to many Americans. Does that not bother you? Seems like the only economic problems you care about are those that hurt Big Oil and King Coal.
2. Even if the climate crisis weren't happening, shifting to renewable energy sources would make sense. They're cleaner (wouldn't it be nice if fewer people died from respiratory distress exacerbated by air pollution?) and can help reduce the power of tyrants and terrorist supporters like the Saudis. In fact, as Iran generates significant revenues from oil, one could argue that one of the best things we can do for democracy in Iran in the long term is to use less oil.
I'll leave with a question: what evidence would it take to convince you that we should get off of fossil fuels?
Mikeleone56, to answer your question, it is quite straightforward: in the absense of the AGW hypothesis being able to advance based on forward-looking demonstrable evidence of man-made CO2 causing irreversible harm, we should only get off fossil fuels once better substitutes emerge, which they will eventually. To try to force that prematurely has demonstrably negative economic and social consequences.
I understand the realities of climate science: limited understanding of the multitude of factors, highly limited ability to forecast even semi-accurately, and an inbred drive to stifle science that does not fit predetermined conclusions. It is truly a shame that the science has been so politicized by people with an anti-progressive economic doctrine.
As far as the cost of energy, you misunderstand my point. I agree that we should do all we can to enable ample energy availability at attractive prices for everybody, especially by not putting artificial constraints on supply. What I'm saying is that innovation and adoption are driven by the economics. There are ample, ample supplies of fossil fuels whose production becomes increasingly attrractive as prices go up.
The artificial attempt of political policies to force the price of fossil fuels higher may work for causing more alternatives adoption in places where those penalties or subsidies are present, but it will not work on the world stage where fossil fuels are still more economically attractive. So, all that the political solutions will achieve is economic harm by forcing alternatives before the economics are competitive. Crocodile tears about foreign dependence are exposed by unwillingness to increase domestic exploration and production. Conservation is only a partial solution, and has its own negative economic consequences.
I'm all for effective alternatives to fossil fuels, but only once they're both economically and physically superior.
GDP is such a bogus measure of econoimes but this is another reminder of why conseveratives never want to talk about wealth distribution.
It is both amazing and scary that you do this with such ease.
"but I fail to see how sustainability is a bad thing."
Waxman-Markey is unsustainable junk. It creates a trillion dollar corrupt money flow that will rob working and middle class people and redistribute it to the politically connected. It will ship US jobs in industrial sectors overseas, in the end HARMING not helping the environment globally.
Passing it will distort and destroy jobs and economic growth that goes far far beyond whatever the harmless CO2 molecule will do. If sustainability is a good thing, then the economic sustainability of the USA should take precedence over bad cap-and-tax bills that dont work.
The estimates of 5% of world GDP harm by 2100 is based on scenarios that completely ignore the natural mitigation of people to conditions. Why such absurds SWAGs are taken seriously is a better question than a visualization that put Malawi underwater.
"A large part of the GDP will be the moneys spend on alleviating expenses needed to safeguard cities and countries from rising sea levels that could be as much as several meters"
This is a lie. Sea level is NOT rising for several years now and has in the past been rising by only 2 millimeters per year. Even the max IPCC estimates are in the 40cm range, and that is assuming CO2 increases that are way ABOVE the current rate.
In short, this 'several meters' increase is bogus fearmongering.
http://climatesci.org/2009/06/30/real-climates-misinformation/
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/12629
http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=3705
http://www.climatedepot.com/a/327/Sec-Chus-assertionsnbspquite-simply-being-proven-wrong-by-the-latest-climate-data
http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2009/06/sea-level-rise-constrained.html
"I also took issue with your point that there's "scant evidence" supporting climate change theory, as this simply isn't true"
A better way to say is that there is strong evidence that models are OVER-STATING the impact of CO2 on temperature, and the evidence is right in front of us: The past 10 years have seen ZERO warming, the past 50 years has seen 0.4C temperature rise. Models that predict bad consequences by 2100 require those numbers to be 0.2C and 1.5C.
It's very bad science to ignore data and stick with models that make bad predictions.
NASA Hansen on the Waxman-Markey bill:
It didn't take long for the counterfeit climate bill known as Waxman-Markey to push back against President Obama's agenda. [...]
This requires nothing less than an energy revolution based on efficiency and carbon-free energy sources. Alas, we won't get there with the Waxman-Markey bill, a monstrous absurdity hatched in Washington after energetic insemination by special interests.
For all its "green" aura, Waxman-Markey locks in fossil fuel business-as-usual and garlands it with a Ponzi-like "cap-and-trade" scheme. [...]
The fact is that the climate course set by Waxman-Markey is a disaster course. Their bill is an astoundingly inefficient way to get a tiny reduction of emissions. It's less than worthless, because it will delay by at least a decade starting on a path that is fundamentally sound from the standpoints of both economics and climate preservation.
Here are a few of the bill's egregious flaws:
•It guts the Clean Air Act, removing EPA's ability to regulate CO2 emissions from power plants.
•It sets meager targets -- 2020 emissions are to be a paltry 13% less than this year's level -- and sabotages even these by permitting fictitious "offsets," by which other nations are paid to preserve forests - while logging and food production will simply move elsewhere to meet market demand.
•Its cap-and-trade system, reports former U.S. Undersecretary of Commerce for Economic Affairs Robert Shapiro, "has no provisions to prevent insider trading by utilities and energy companies or a financial meltdown from speculators trading frantically in the permits and their derivatives."
•It fails to set predictable prices for carbon, without which, Shapiro notes, "businesses and households won't be able to calculate whether developing and using less carbon-intensive energy and technologies makes economic sense," thus ensuring that millions of carbon-critical decisions fall short.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-james-hansen/g-8-failure-reflects-us-f_b_228597.html
"The artificial attempt of political policies to force the price of fossil fuels higher may work for causing more alternatives adoption in places where those penalties or subsidies are present, but it will not work on the world stage where fossil fuels are still more economically attractive. So, all that the political solutions will achieve is economic harm by forcing alternatives before the economics are competitive."
The WORST of this is that by making US industry less competitive, we ship industrial jobs overseas. For example, refineries, steel, aluminum, and other high-energy jobs and production. And where would it go? China, India.
And what kind of environmental record do they have?
What do you think THEY will do? Follow us, or say "hey suckers, this is our chance to catch up economically" and ignore caps and go full steam ahead on energy?
"There is a lot of pressure on India and China on the issue of climate change. We have to resist it." - Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh upon returning from the G8.
"I don't think we can afford to ignore it any longer. The stakes are too high."
The ACTUAL impact of Waxman-Markey is to impact global temperatures by LESS than 0.1C by 2100. High stakes?
"So, according to Rudy, one arbitrary period is no better than any other arbitrary period for evaluating the direction of a trend in physical data."
That happens to be scientifically accurate.
"In the present period (which we can't arbitrarily shift away from) we see melting glaciers, thinning ice sheets, shorter and shallower winters, and many other effects of rising global temperatures."
OK, but if you want to look backwards from 2009, we are able measure global temperatures directly and precisely via satellite since 1979 and other trendlines prior. We dont need anecdotal proxies to tell us what has gone on. What global temperatures are showing is a runup to 1998, but since then its flattened out, with a decline in temps for 2 years now. Global temps have yet to exceed the 1998 peak.
The evidence is clear: There is a natural temperature variability in global temperatures that is overwhelming whatever impact CO2 has in the past few years.
One perfectly sensible compromise would be to 'trigger' CO2 climate rules based on whether the temperatures ever get above 1998 levels. If they dont 'no sweat', if they do, it gives force to the global warming theory.
@ Rudy
Your assumption that CO2 levels and warming are not causally related is silly, and pretty absurd. The relationship between C02 as an agent of increased thermal retention has been known for years. That's why climatologists and their ilk looked to CO2 as a possible agent of what they saw happening - increased global temperatures. The inference then, of historical climate data - temperatures and CO2 levels - being a cause-effect relationship is science 101. Especially since they have progressed historically in lockstep, were we to analyze the data graphically, from ice core samples.
Claiming it would be rash or absurd to take action now would be equivalent to saying one should take no action when they smell smoke in their house, since they can't be sure there is a causal relationship with the smoke smell and any potential fire about to burn their house down.
After all, the people who study the climate, and who would be the most likely to know the facts regarding the issue - climatologists - have a 97% consensus on the relationship to human CO2 emissions and global climate change. The biggest doubters in the scientific community? Petroleum geologists. Surprise surprise.
Nate -- I admire this tack but would like to note that you leave out all non-human inhabitants of the planet.
Why?
They have great capacities to feel and deserve serious consideration, despite the fact that they receive extremely little by culturally arrogant human animals. Their proper inclusion strengthens the need to act responsibly.
was this nominal or PPP?
Freedom's Truth wrote: "The ACTUAL impact of Waxman-Markey is to impact global temperatures by LESS than 0.1C by 2100. High stakes?"
Yes, high stakes.
If you go back and read that post of mine again, you'll see that by "high stakes" I meant the result of ignoring the disinformation being spread about global warming.
The fact that Waxman-Markey limits on CO2 do not satisfy scientists is another result of that disinformation.
Freedom's Truth wrote: "That happens to be scientifically accurate."
Really? I'd love to see you prove it.
Freedom's Truth wrote: "OK, but if you want to look backwards from 2009, we are able measure global temperatures directly and precisely via satellite since 1979 and other trendlines prior. We dont need anecdotal proxies to tell us what has gone on. What global temperatures are showing is a runup to 1998, but since then its flattened out, with a decline in temps for 2 years now. Global temps have yet to exceed the 1998 peak."
Wait for it...
"The evidence is clear: There is a natural temperature variability in global temperatures that is [masking] whatever impact CO2 has in the past few years."
Fixed that for you.
"One perfectly sensible compromise would be to 'trigger' CO2 climate rules based on whether the temperatures ever get above 1998 levels. If they don't, 'no sweat', if they do, it gives force to the global warming theory."
What I and others argue is that the global warming theory already has plenty of force. This ten-year dip in air temperature due to a La Niña event is not the reversal of the warming trend.
To understand this fully (possibly mentioned, I only read 40 posts) one must understand that 400 million years ago, the earth had a dense atmosphere filled with life destroying particulate matter. After millions of years, the carbon settled to earth and was eventually covered and compacted, to a degree, by the earths crust. That has formed the bulk of the fossil fuels we are digging up and so graciously returning to earths atmosphere. Again, life wasn't possible with all this carbon in the air, now we're returning it and it follows that at a certain point it will start doing its job and end us. The question is: how much do we really care? The answer is surely: we care relative to how much it will effect us and our children with a highly diminishing curve as the generations pass. Even at record avg lifespans humans don't live long enough to care, intrinsically, about what they do to the planet.
Amazing how many responders don't recognize Swiftian humor when they see it. Marvelous post. But it does raise the issue of why we judge so much by GDP. When by definition, growth - beyond a certain point - is unsustainable. Can't we find a measure that would make a steady-state economy look good?
Dan W: I'm doing a blog post on grappling with understanding the truth about climate change and would like to quote you. Reach me at kscribner@captivate.com. Thanks.
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