As a follow-up on Nate's fine work (here and here) on polling about the "public option" in health care reform, it's worth emphasizing that the two most credible surveyors of public opinion on this subject, the Kaiser Family Foundation and CBS/New York Times, have both found that at least half of self-identified Republicans favor a well-described public option.
So the question must be asked: if Barack Obama wants to conduct a bipartisan approach to universal health care, what does that mean in terms of the public option? Killing or watering down the public option in order to (maybe) attract the support of Sen. Chuck Grassley, and not much of anybody else in the congressional Republican ranks? Or maintaining it to appeal to rank-and-file Republicans, who favor it despite the views of their "leaders" and the polarized atmosphere in Washington?
I ask this question because I've felt all along that President Obama's concept of bipartisanship is focused on appealing to rank-and-file Republicans and Republican-leaning independents, not to congressional Republicans. This approach, moreover, forces congressional Republicans to choose between cooperating or, more likely, increasing their polarization efforts in order to hang onto their rank-and-file base, which also tends to increase their isolation from the swing voters they may actually need in the future.
I understand that Obama and congressional Democrats may need cooperation from Grassley or a few others for short-term tactical reasons in the Senate. But ultimately, "bipartisanship" on health care may actually mean looking past congressional Republicans and pitting them against their own supporters across the country, particularly on the public option.
6.22.2009
Grassroots Bipartisanship on Health Care
by Ed Kilgore @ 3:14 PM...see also bipartisanship, health care, messaging, obama
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I don't know if I buy the notion they are purposely shaping moderate Republicans votes by pitting them against their moderate constituents.
I think it may be the result of the demographics along with the voting block shifting from Republican to Democratic identification. As the population shifts, Republicans that may have comfortably voted a certain way are slowly finding themselves to be outside of mainstream in their home states.
I'm tired and I'm not sure I just made any sense! heh
I think what Ed points out very well is Obama's political instincts aren't just based on 'inside the Beltway games'. I think on this issue that is smart. The hard part will be keeping centrist Dems on board, bit I have a feeling that when a universal option is added to the US healthcare system, it will be hard to dismantle.
To reiterate what I said in another thread, the biggest battle right now is on the "meme" front - that is, defining the term "public option". It is crucially important that this term not be identified with left fringe politics. Rather it needs to be continually hammered home that it is a tool for controlling the cost of health care by creating a COMPETITIVE PLAN, an animal which doesn't presently exist in this country, and whose absence permits spiraling costs to continue.
Maybe the President needs to host one of his famous Wednesday night cocktail parties... and invite few hundred pro-public option Republicans.
He may need to reach down as far as school board members, sheriffs and mayors... you know the people who actually have a budget to balance while trying to provide private health insurance for their employees.
If President Obama needs cooperation from Grassley, we're in big trouble. Grassley will not vote for any kind of meaningful health care reform, let alone a public option.
Oh Ed, you're so dirty! If the Obama camp hasn't thought of this, they have now.
I have always had the same assessment of the president's view of bipartisanship. I say paint the R's as the party of no and dare them to oppose a public option.
If Obama gets a public option without Republican support, he'll have an open field to run in as far as any other policies he wants to pursue.
i hope obama does something. right now it doesnt look like much.
i agree that grassley will do nothing
all this money for the bailout outs and the endless wars but not a dime for the sick? what happened to morals in this country? maybe we never had any.
does anyone think that there is a chance to get something meaningful passed?
Your lips to God's ears!
I will consider any step in the right direction to be "meaningful".
I was aware that Obama would be a centrist who made incremental changes when I voted for him. That's what he said he was. He was running against Sarah Palin and John McCain. The choice was obvious.
I've commented before that we already have an excellent single payer system, which covers the most resource-demanding patients - the elderly and disabled - efficiently, and to the satisfaction of doctors and patients. It's called Medicare. We could just give everyone Medicare. But that would be far too simple and logical.
However, even a timid, incremental step is infinitely better than no step at all.
I was aware that Obama would be a centrist who made incremental changes when I voted for him.
This is the most radical president we've had in the 233-year history of our country as an independent nation. There is nothing "incremental" about him. Nothing.
Nothing "centrist" either.
@Doctor Who
Ha hahahahaha ha ha ha ha!
That was a good one...
You were joking, right?
Who the bama is Ed Kilgore?! Is it Pete Kent in disguise?
I've commented before that we already have an excellent single payer system, which covers the most resource-demanding patients - the elderly and disabled - efficiently, and to the satisfaction of doctors and patients. It's called Medicare. We could just give everyone Medicare. But that would be far too simple and logical.
Because Medicare currently costs $440 billion dollars. According to the Government Accountability office, the Medicare program is going to run a budget shortfall of $34 TRILLION over the next 75 years. In other words, it's DAMN expensive. We're already running a trillion+ annual deficit. Where are you suggesting we get the money to pay for extending Medicare to everybody? I'm afraid taxing the rich won't be enough.
http://www.gao.gov/financial/fy2007/07frusg.pdf
It's easy for doctors and patients to be satisfied with a program in which they do nothing but get money and free things.
Here's a good poll sequence-- Do you support a public option that would go along with private options for your health care?
And if yes,,, Would you more or less likely to vote for your Congressman/Senator if they didn't allow you that choice?
Let's see what the jerks (mostly Repub but some Dem) have to say when those results are compiled!
You were joking, right?
No, I wasn't. But that's what I wanted to ask harold when he suggested Obama was a "centrist" and "incrementalist." That's a joke.
harold said: ...we already have an excellent single payer system, which covers the most resource-demanding patients - the elderly and disabled - efficiently, and to the satisfaction of doctors and patients. It's called Medicare.
Medicare pays less than most other plans. In many areas, especially rural, it is impossible to find doctors who will accept Medicare patients.
One of the best things I've seen about the health care issue was a C-SPAN video of Ezekiel Emanuel (the brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel) talking about his book, Healthcare, Guaranteed: A Simple Secure Solution for America.
SantaTurdo = formerly known as assmole
The Sanctimonious Turd said...
Who the bama is Ed Kilgore?! Is it Pete Kent in disguise?
Sanctimonious Turd?
If you don't want to contribute to the conversation, you are welcome to leave permanently.
You might want to make sure the door doesn't hit you on your brain's encasement as you leave, though. Since the last portion of a human body to go through a doorway normally is the Glutenous Maximus muscles and covering skin, all I'm doing is letting you know what portion of your body you should try to protect, Sanctimonious Turd.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
If you don't want to contribute to the conversation, you are welcome to leave permanently.
NEWS FLASH.
Mike, you NEVER contribute to the conversation, and you're more than welcome to leave permanently.
I know you're still smarting from that beatdown I gave you the other day over the Gallup poll of ideological self-identification and you're attempt - but utter failure - at trying to twist my words about agricultural subsidies.
wv: mentents: Sounds like the kind of place Mike trolls for homosexual loving when he's not trolling 538.
That should say "your attempt", not "you're attempt."
That was a great contribution/turd from you, Mikey boy. Doctor Who= a reference most 538 readers won't get. Extract head from anus, Doctor. Pronto!
just for those here who dont seem to know medicare isw for the elderly. medicaid is for the disabled.
finding doctors who will take either one these days is often impossible.
and forget dental
small towns might as well forget it
I know who you are, Who, too. Dcotor Who - formerly known as Gaylord Focker from that great movie Meet The Fockers!
I shamed Mike so bad the other day he can't even speak to me. Can't say I blame him. I don't like him, and I know most everyone else on here doesn't like him.
The drivel by loomisnews at his website exposes him as one of the most hate-filled son-of-a-bitches on the planet.
He's in some elite company too...right up there with Kim Jong-Il and Ahmadinejad.
'Doctor Who',
The invitation I extended to 'The Sanctimonious Turd' is also extended to you, with the same precautions given to him/her/it above.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
This is the most radical president we've had in the 233-year history of our country as an independent nation.
That would be Bush. The first President to argue torture was useful and right. A President who ignored warnings about 9/11. A President who ran over the constitution, ignored international law, started wars of convenience, while forgetting about Bin Laden. A president who allowed corporations to do what they want, regardless of the effects. etc,etc.
Bush was extremely radical. Obama is mild and fairly middle of the road in most respects.
I bet you thought Clinton was a liberal.
Because Medicare currently costs $440 billion dollars. According to the Government Accountability office, the Medicare program is going to run a budget shortfall of $34 TRILLION over the next 75 years. In other words, it's DAMN expensive. We're already running a trillion+ annual deficit. Where are you suggesting we get the money to pay for extending Medicare to everybody? I'm afraid taxing the rich won't be enough.
Um, you do realize that companies would be saving hundreds of billions of dollars a year, people would be saving hundreds a month, hospitals wouldn't have to write off ER visits from the uninsured, which leads to higher fees.
You are assuming nothing else would change if everyone was placed under medicare. Lots of things would happen, lots of positive things.
Jobs would be created, jobs would be saved because business will see an instant bottom line improvement, many business will avoid going under. All of which creates more tax income.
People are simply too shortsighted.
In addition to the "public option", as per the Atul Gawande article in the New Yorker, there needs to be incentives/disincentives to shape medical practice to encourage salary rather than fee-for-service, and to encourage doctors to consult with one another, and to cooperate in patient care.
I shamed Mike so bad the other day he can't even speak to me. Can't say I blame him. I don't like him, and I know most everyone else on here doesn't like him.
Why in the hell can't Nate keep the shit stain more commonly known as AssRider from spewing his venom, meaningless threats, and fucking insanity?
It is past time to hire moderators.
FDR: gave us Social Security and the New Deal, threatened to pack the Supreme Court.
Nixon: instituted wage and price controls and the EPA, did Watergate.
President Taft: proposed income tax, resulting in the 16th Amendment.
LBJ: civil rights act, voting rights act, Medicare.
Even Bush didn't change that much, comparatively, let alone anything Obama's done or even talked about. Most radical? It's good to know so quickly who not to take seriously.
I'm hopeful that the Obama admin. is thinking up of some smart ways to push public support even higher for the public option and then do precisely what you are suggesting here. They need to shame congressmen and senators into supporting the public option. And if they don't then they need to run hard against them next time. Dems shouldn't even have a choice. I'm saying NO money for any Dem who doesn't vote for the public option. It's time to get tough.
Okay folks, especially theonlysaneone:
Do we agree that as a society, we have a shared obligation to provide everyone in our society access to health care? Good. If you don't agree, then you're out of step with all the other industrialized countries we compete with.
Do we agree that the current system is a failure? Good. If you don't agree, then you haven't been paying attention, or you just don't give a damn about anyone but yourself.
Do we agree that something needs to change? Good. If you don't agree, then you meet the classic definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
Do we agree that there are some groups who will lose from a public option? Good. Do we agree that those who will lose (insurance companies, pharma companies, some doctors who write orders for tests at facilities they own) have been making obscene profits for years off of our failed system? Good. If you don't agree, you've probably been making those obscene profits and haven't reported them on their taxes.
Do you agree that as a society, it is more important for us to guarantee access to health care for all than it is to guarantee profits for those businesses that have been profiting?
Good. Now we're getting somewhere.
Damien Sullivan said...
FDR: gave us Social Security and the New Deal
You got something against Social Security? What New Deal programs don't you like?
threatened to pack the Supreme Court.
Key word - 'threatened'. He didn't do it.
Nixon: instituted wage and price controls
Any problem with his trying? And unlike most GOOPer Presidents, his actions did not neglect the role business had in causing the problem, and excusing them from having to suffer some of the consequences.
the EPA,
And what do you have against clean air and water?
did Watergate.
We'll concede that one to the GOOPers.
President Taft: proposed income tax, resulting in the 16th Amendment.
And prior to that, it was businesses that passed the tax burden on to the consumer. Back then, the government revenue was raised by tariffs, revenue taxes, and other sales tax-type methods of raising revenues. The beneficiaries? Those whose wealth was in property or stocks. But especially businesses, as they just passed on all the 'taxes' to the consumer.
Are your in favor of returning to that type of system?
LBJ: civil rights act, voting rights act,
An admission that you are racist? Of course, since you are apparently whole-heartedly supporting the GOOPer platform that many of the far right would like to see implemented, that isn't very surprising to many of us.
Medicare.
I dare the GOOPers to try to get Medicare repealed. You would have 95% of seniors voting for the Democratic candidate opposing such repeal.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
I'm not at all sold on the idea that the public support for a public health option is as solid and real as it is being portrayed here. Just looking at the Kaiser Foundation poll linked to here, we see the majority of people (both favoring or opposing) change their minds with respect to measures such as taxing soft drinks or taxing health benefits when presented with a reasonable counterargument.
Unfortunately, this poll didn't do such follow-ups to their questions regarding the ways of expanding coverage. However, the fact that people so readily changed their opinion on related questions makes me wonder...
That said, I'd like to see a change in our healthcare system. I'd also wager that a desire for some change is really what can be taken from these polls.
Bob from Illinois,
Really good questions and answers for people who might be willing to think...
The main thing I would reinforce in this discussion is the cost to the system, and the country, for the uninsured.
Over 175,500 Americans have died from no health care since 9/11.
Hundreds of thousands more have had major illnesses from lack of regular, preventitive care. As an RN for 32 years, the number of people added to this group every years is as mind boggling as it is heart breaking. Two examples of how this costs us more in the long run.
One person who could not afford blood pressure meds and had a stroke. He went on to have coronary artery disease, a bypass and was debilitated enough to go on disability in his 50's.
Another whose job was terminated and went on COBRA. Unfortunately the bills are not covered the first month. You have to pay out of pocket and then file to be reimbursed. Not so easy when you have had a kidney transplant and the meds run thousands of dollars per month. He couldn't keep on all of them and ended up with a failed kidney, going back on dialysis.
There are too many gaps in the care we provide that too many people fall through. The long term costs are preventable if we can just get over the idea that we can't afford the upfront costs.
Especially the idea that everyone is going to start using health care excessively because it is 'paid' for. We do have infrequent people who seem to need the attention they can get from being sick. A better way to deal with that is to bring mental health care into the same importance and legitmacy that we give cardiac and neurological disease.
The vast majority of people do not want to spend any more of their time in doctor's offices, labs or the hospital than is absolutely necessary.
Ginny in CO…
Your comments are right on the money.
None of those squawking about the cost of a public option are probably even aware of the enormous burden we taxpayers already shoulder for the uninsured. In Ginny’s first example, what could have been treated with minimal outlay instead ballooned into massive medical bills which ended up dumped on the taxpayers. (That’s who pays for all the uninsured who show up at hospitals, folks.)
The simple, bald fact is that a single-payer system in this country would save everyone money. No clever insurance company ads can contradict that fact—instead they play upon the same fears they plucked in 1994, the last time universal health insurance coverage was debated in the US.
My hunch is that Obama will have the right instincts on how to get real reform through Congress. He is well aware that public opinion is overwhelmingly with him on this.
Slow down, Bob from Illinois.
Do we agree that as a society, we have a shared obligation to provide everyone in our society access to health care? Good. If you don't agree, then you're out of step with all the other industrialized countries we compete with.
This isn't nearly as black and white as you make it sound. First of all, everyone has ACCESS to healthcare already. If you break your ankle, you go to the emergency room and it is treated. Payment only comes afterward. Other industrialized nations ostensibly grant everyone access to healthcare, but I've heard enough horror stories about cancer patients being denied care and long waiting lines to be slightly skeptical of the claims of other industrialized nations. Besides, most of those nations have much smaller and more homogenous populations.
What you're proposing is not access to healthcare, but money to pay for healthcare. Those are two very different animals.
Do we agree that the current system is a failure? Good. If you don't agree, then you haven't been paying attention, or you just don't give a damn about anyone but yourself.
Our system is deficient in many ways, but it is still considered to be the best in the world by many people. Why else would foreign leaders and the very wealthy come here to be treated? Our system also produces the most innovation of any in the world. Very few drugs are developed anywhere outside of the US.
Do we agree that something needs to change? Good. If you don't agree, then you meet the classic definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
Change can swing both ways. You are obviously arguing for increased public funding for healthcare, but I would argue just the opposite. Government intervention through Medicare and regulation has driven up medical costs. By removing those factors, it's possible that costs could go down without the government having to provide anything.
Before Medicare, medical care was very inexpensive and available to most people. One very easy change that could be made would be to allow healthcare plans to cross state lines. If there is an HMO in Idaho that fits your needs and is cheap, and you live in Oklahoma, you should be able to use it. There are a lot of unfunded mandates that could be removed as well.
Do we agree that there are some groups who will lose from a public option? Good. Do we agree that those who will lose (insurance companies, pharma companies, some doctors who write orders for tests at facilities they own) have been making obscene profits for years off of our failed system? Good. If you don't agree, you've probably been making those obscene profits and haven't reported them on their taxes.
Or they might be people who are happy with the plan they have now. If the company they are using is driven out of business because of subsidized competition from a government plan, they will lose out.
Do you agree that as a society, it is more important for us to guarantee access to health care for all than it is to guarantee profits for those businesses that have been profiting?
I don't see why, as a society, we need to guarantee anything to anybody. Let people choose their own health providers in the free market. Don't place unnecessary restrictions on people and don't throw money at every interest group that asks for it. I'm not opposed to caring for the disabled and the extremely poor, but there is no reason able-bodied adults should not be able to provide for their own healthcare. When they don't, someone else is picking up the tab.
Doctor Who said...
I shamed Mike so bad the other day he can't even speak to me. Can't say I blame him. I don't like him, and I know most everyone else on here doesn't like him.
June 22, 2009 7:57 PM
@Doc,
talk for yourself...if You can get the permission from Your wife to talk.
I like Mike in MD and I also like Santa turdo.
So please let them talk about the topic.
I am interested in it and not interested in your insults.
@Mike in Maryland:
I think you misunderstood Damien Sullivan's comment. He was responding to a post by Beavis, who gave reasons for G. W. Bush being a radical president compared to Obama. The reasons Beavis gave were Bush 43's actions he considered (and I agree they were) negative.
Damian Sullivan responded having in mind a more general notion of "radical", including mostly good things (aside from Watergate). He was trying to make the point that other presidents (FDR, LBJ, Nixon) undertook more (good) radical actions than Bush 43.
I winced at nearly every line in your response. Please have another look at what Damian Sullivan was saying and give it some thought.
theonlysaneone said: First of all, everyone has ACCESS to healthcare already. If you break your ankle, you go to the emergency room and it is treated. Payment only comes afterward. Other industrialized nations ostensibly grant everyone access to healthcare, but I've heard enough horror stories about cancer patients being denied care and long waiting lines to be slightly skeptical of the claims of other industrialized nations.
If you are uninsured and have a chronic problem (cancer, diabetes, congestive heart failure, etc.), you cannot get treated at the emergency room. Instead, you die. The horror stories you hear are just that: stories.
Our system is deficient in many ways, but it is still considered to be the best in the world by many people.
Not by very many people. We spend twice as much per capita as the next highest country, but our health care system is only the 37th best in the world. I don't doubt that the wealthy like our system, for they can buy whatever they want.
You are obviously arguing for increased public funding for healthcare...
A single payer system would be cheaper, perhaps much cheaper, than what we have today, for the same level of care. Or we could spend the same amount and get better care.
Government intervention through Medicare and regulation has driven up medical costs. By removing those factors, it's possible that costs could go down without the government having to provide anything.
We have about 100,000 deaths annually caused by medical malpractice. By all means, let's remove regulation. Would you like to shoot for 500,000 deaths annually?
I don't see why, as a society, we need to guarantee anything to anybody. Let people choose their own health providers in the free market.
What you really mean is "let people who can't afford medical insurance die". How Christian of you.
I'm not opposed to caring for the disabled and the extremely poor, but there is no reason able-bodied adults should not be able to provide for their own healthcare.
You do know, of course, that medical bills cause 60% of bankruptcies in the U.S. And of these, 78% had health insurance (and were presumably able-bodied adults, at least before they got sick). Could you afford a $100,000 medical bill (not covered by your insurance, of course)? $500,000? $1,000,000? I sure can't.
@Alan.
good points.
;)
'theonlysaneone',
When I was 41, I had an appendectomy.
I fell ill at work on a Wednesday afternoon, went home and went to bed. Woke up Thursday morning to intense pain. Went to the emergency room.
No fever. No higher than normal white blood cell count. Pain in area more associated with kidney stone that appendicitis (I had a kidney stone 10 years earlier, and remembered how that felt, and where the associated pain was). X-Ray indicated a shadow in area where a kidney stone might be present.
Assessment was that I probably had a kidney stone, as all medical tests pointed in that direction, and I was older than the typical profile for appendicitis. Instructions were to go home, drink plenty of fluids, and get plenty of rest.
Sent home that day and went to bed again due to exhaustion. Still no fever.
Woke up very early Friday morning due to intense pain. Again went to the emergency room. Temperature was only slightly elevated, but still within 'normal range'. White cell count was only slightly elevated, but still within 'normal range'. X-ray showed no shadow. More tests - this time white cell count started climbing, and temperature started rising.
Decision was finally made that I most likely had appendicitis and I was scheduled for surgery.
MAJOR PROBLEM - multiple and major accidents in area had filled all surgical theaters in the hospital with patients with severe injuries, so my surgery had to wait until a surgical theater was available. The wait was several hours.
Finally went into surgery that evening - surgery lasted more than 1-1/2 hours. The doctor later told me I had MAJOR infection, and I was 2-6 hours from peritonitis, as my appendix had probably burst (the surgeon's words were 'the appendix didn't just burst, but looked like it shattered') 12 to 16 hours earlier. So as not to trap any infection, and to allow any infectious material a way to drain out of the body, they couldn't suture the abdomen completely shut, but had to leave it partially open. I now have a 10 inch long, two inch wide scar across my abdomen from that surgery.
I was on major pain killers for five days following surgery, and four different antibiotics for six days. I had an oxygen tube down my trachea for four days to help prevent pneumonia from developing.
Nine days after surgery, I was released from the hospital, and after an additional 30 days at home, I was able to return to work (six weeks to the day from when I left work feeling ill), and then only for 1/2 days for three additional weeks.
During the time I was at home, a visiting nurse came twice a day to change dressings and bandages, and take notes on how the wound was healing.
Hospital tab? I was fortunate I had good insurance, and I didn't have to pay for anything. However, the insurance company received a bill for more than $15,000 (would probably now be more than $30,000), and that was just the tab for the hospital room, surgeon, surgical center, meds and associated costs - I have no idea what the visiting nurse charges were, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were at least $1,000 per week or more.
I also had good leave benefits from my employer, and was able to do some work from home, so I didn't lose any pay.
Would YOU have been able to afford such an incident with no insurance, 'theonlysaneone', and without putting a huge crimp on your life for years and years?
And by the way, my opinion is that you are NOT 'the only sane one,' but just one of many INSANE ones who infest the discussions here at 538.com.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
@Mike in Maryland:
You have an amazing amount of time on your hands. Spend some time with friends and family and get a hug once in a while. Maybe you wouldn't be so angry all the time.
The onlysaneone said
'Our system is deficient in many ways, but it is still considered to be the best in the world by many people. Why else would foreign leaders and the very wealthy come here to be treated? Our system also produces the most innovation of any in the world. Very few drugs are developed anywhere outside of the US.'
------------------------
I mentioned this on another thread, but I have to agree with Alan that the US healthcare system is NOT the envy of the world. Its possible that the quality of care is very good, but it is hugely expensive and actually not based around providing care, more about providing profit for insurance companies. IMHO the healthcare system in the US is an embarrassment for the nation. Quality of care is fine, but not terribly useful if there are people without coverage and therefore outside of the system, for whatever reason they are.
Again at the risk of repeating myself, whether or not people have chosen to be outside of the system, IMO some form of mandating is vital in the long run. I know I am risking the wrath of the anti nanny staters, but many people may get caught out without insurance because they feel they don't need it. IMO if you can insist people have car insurance, why not insist people have health insurance.
Mike in MD,
What a horror story! It is indeed lucky that you had excellent insurance. I'm betting that, among people who have insurance today, most would either be denied some care (visiting nurse? what a luxury!), or end up with a co-pay which would leave them on very shaky financial ground.
The oxymoronic "theonlysaneone" also trots out the talking point that "very few drugs are developed outside of the US." Not only is it irrelevant to a discussion of health insurance (being more related to how the laws treat the pharmaceutical industry), butt it's also untrue. Many drugs and treatments have been developed in Canada and Europe.
GROG said...
June 23, 2009 7:01 AM
@GROG,
#1-Doesn't look like your statement has anything to add in this discussion...does it ?
#2-Good Lord,why in Heaven You care so much about how people spend THEIR time ?
matador:
Because he can't make a post without slinging insults at people. That does nothing to add to the converstation.
What do you liberals want.
Everyone to agree with you.
Its not going to happen.
Telling somebody to shutup or go away because you disagree with them is extremely immature.
Again at the risk of repeating myself, whether or not people have chosen to be outside of the system, IMO some form of mandating is vital in the long run. I know I am risking the wrath of the anti nanny staters, but many people may get caught out without insurance because they feel they don't need it. IMO if you can insist people have car insurance, why not insist people have health insurance.
Because as it is right now, insurance is a huge waste of money for a lot of people. I would much rather forgo insurance and spend money when I needed care than be forced to pay for an insurance plan that covers every little health cost. The best thing would probably be a plan with an extremely large deductible that would only be needed to cover catastrophic accidents or health problems.
To put it another way, teh reason people have car insurance is to pay for the big things, like car crashes or theft. You don't use it to pay for the yearly inspection or the gas. Health insurance is the same way. You KNOW you are going to the doctor at some point during the year, so why do you need insurance?
I don't want to be forced to take part in any insurance plan. I'm a responsible adult and I can make my healthcare decisions without government interference.
@theonlysaneone
just for istance:
You imagine that from tomorrow on You need dialysis (hope you know what it is) for the rest of your life:
#1-there is an high risk you are going to lose your job because of the treatment you need.
#2-without job you can't pay insurance's rate.
#3-does in US that insurance will keep on covering you ?
#4-even if you are so luky to avoid point 1-2-3 does the insurance will cover you anyway FOR-EVER ?
theonlysaneone…
Since you have pegged yourself “a responsible adult” who can make healthcare decisions “without interference from the government” please, from this moment forward, carry a card in your wallet/purse that states the following—
“To any/all medical personnel who might treat me as the result of an accident or catastrophic illness: STOP all medical treatment when the accumulated cost exceeds ________ (here you pencil in your total net worth). Since I don’t want the government involved in my healthcare, it follows that I don’t want them paying for services I can’t afford.”
Then I hope you’ve had the foresight to put aside a little cash for a decent funeral, so the government doesn’t get stuck with the costs entailed in planting your stupid dead ass in a government-run potter’s field.
First, let me assure everybody that the Doctor Who posting on these pages is not the Real Doctor. Doctor Who is a science-loving, pacifist who constantly meddles in human affairs and changes the course of history. He’d probably like Obama as a person and consider his actions politics fairly bland. And the TARDIS doesn’t have an AM Radio, so I’m not sure how Doctor Who would pick up Limbaugh’s talking points…
Anyway, I think talking about a public option is really just the first step. Ultimately, we need a single payer system and we need to dismantle the insurance industry. For all of the stigma attached to ‘socialized medicine’, is there anybody out there that really believes that quality medical care should be a luxury? Think about it for a second; I can get anywhere in the country (except HI) on roads that were paid for with public money (i.e. socialized roads), but if I get into an accident on one of those roads and need serious medical attention, I’m screwed unless I have really good insurance. And I can go to the best public schools and get a decent degree from one of the many (but disappearing) affordable state universities, only to totally ignore that education and take the first job that provides access to health care. Talking about how to insure the millions without coverage is a nice stop-gap measure, but eventually we need to start talking about how to provide comprehensive healthcare for every citizen. This is not about the government forcing people to do things or stealing money to push a certain agenda; this is about the citizenry of this country working together to ‘promote the general welfare’.
I like Mike in MD...
@matador,
This speaks volumes about your character then, if you're delighted to read the rantings of a pompous, angry jackass.
I have no use for you and anyone else like you who sits around loathing and seething over anything and everything that doesn't jive with your sick, twisted world view.
More for matador:
And from what I can tell, you are a foreigner anyway. So as far as I'm concerned, you should drink a big glass of STFU when it comes to a group of Americans discussing domestic affairs...especially ones that have no bearing whatsoever on your life. And I'd suggest that OUR healthcare system has no bearing on your life in whatever bum-f***ed corner of the world you're in.
theonlysaneone said:
I don't want to be forced to take part in any insurance plan. I'm a responsible adult and I can make my healthcare decisions without government interference.
Fine with me. But when a medical catastrophe happens to you, please don't go to an emergency room - I don't want to pay for you. Just find a corner and die quietly.
theonlysaneone said:
I don't want to be forced to take part in any insurance plan. I'm a responsible adult and I can make my healthcare decisions without government interference.
Fine with me. But when a medical catastrophe happens to you, please don't go to an emergency room - I don't want to pay for you. Just find a corner and suffer quietly.
Sorry for the double post. I was trying to tone down my response, but I must have hit the wrong button.
Fine with me. But when a medical catastrophe happens to you, please don't go to an emergency room - I don't want to pay for you. Just find a corner and suffer quietly.
I'd be fine with that - going it alone and fending for myself as theonlysaneone suggests. But that's what you liberals don't understand who want us all to live in a nanny state. All of the people who are independent enough to pay their own way or if, heaven forbid, a catastrophe strikes they just "find a corner and suffer quietly" are needed by your plans to cover all of those wanting to suck on the government's (public's) tit.
We could go away and pay our own way and be willing to "suffer quietly" but the little lie you're not telling is that you still need us to pay for all of the deadbeats who want (read: need) someone to pay their way.
Just like Social Security. I'd love to opt out, and I'm sure you'd give that sanctimonious liberal response of, "Well, go ahead, but don't come crying to me when you're 75 and broke. You'll just have to suffer as an old codger." Well, you know what, I'd be willing to do that, but you're not telling the whole truth. You can' just let me go out of the system so easily. You need me - and millions like me - who are looking for the government and their fellow citizens to pay their way. The terrible thing about this country is that more and more people have learned they can keep voting for these goodies (handouts). And the even worse thing is that it will lead to this country's demise.
It's the Democratic party that's fostering this environment as they pander to certain groups trying to "buy" votes. They're doing a good job of that right now. And they're also bankrupting the country spending other people's money.
The only sane one said
'To put it another way, teh reason people have car insurance is to pay for the big things, like car crashes or theft. You don't use it to pay for the yearly inspection or the gas. Health insurance is the same way. You KNOW you are going to the doctor at some point during the year, so why do you need insurance?'
-----------------------------
Why can't the same principle apply to health insurance then? You want a physical, fine but you pay for it, (actually there are reasons I don't agree with that, but just for the sake of argument lets go for that as a principle), but any treatment costs can be claimed against your health insurance? Why not mandate that system?
Actually one of the issues with I have with people being uninsured is that they are less likely to have a physical or go to a doctor with a minor ailment, and therefore there medical conditions are more likely to develop into something serious. Thats one of the big issues here.
Doctor Who said:
Just like Social Security. I'd love to opt out, and I'm sure you'd give that sanctimonious liberal response of, "Well, go ahead, but don't come crying to me when you're 75 and broke."
Actually, I don't think you would make it to age 75. I remember reading that if instead of paying social security taxes, you had invested the money in the stock market and then started withdrawing the same amount of money at age 65 that you would have gotten from social security, you would run out of money in three years.
I read this a long time ago, and I don't know how the numbers would work out today, but I doubt that things have gotten much better after the stock market crash.
i posted an analysis of the administration/congressional dems approach on the healthcare thing on my blog http://www.hurstcritique.com/2009/06/america-needs-healthcare-transplant.html
the blue dog dems are the real enemy here...but let's hope that they don't hold out for bipartisanship crap, because a watered down bill that doesn't fix anythign will just reflect poorly on obama later on, and of course won't solve the problem.
ok looks like we are having a bit of a rational discussion for once so I'll go ahead and wade in
The uninsured should have catastrophic insurance. Its what most people should have because most people are relatively helathy just like most people don't get into car accidents. My Auto Insurance has extremly high deductibles under the same principle. Most policies cost under 100 bucks a month with a 2500deductible. That should be doable for most people. If not spending priorites are messed up. If you really are poor we already have Medicaid
Ok once that is out of the way then we can start reforming Medicare and Medicaid. In my humble opinion this is where there are all kinds of waste and fraud. These two entitlements are going to eat us alive within the next 20 years.
So there problem solved with very little government interference. I can't believe people want more government control. Can't you see how much medicare and medicaid are spiraling out of control.
@Alan,
Your talking points are a distortion. There was also a report not too long ago that showed that properly invested money set aside for retirement - and not into social security - would yield like six times more.
I think it was by some university in Texas or a think tank there, but I'd have to look it up to be sure. Talking about how the stock market crash wiping out retirement savings is a canard as people who were truly on the verge of retirement should have been in much more secure investments that have lower yields but much lower risk, thus ensuring they are getting a positive return - even if it's only 1% or 2% - in even the worst of times.
Doctor Who said...
@matador,
I have no use for you and anyone else like you who sits
June 23, 2009 11:50 AM
so why are you wasting time with me ???
It's silly,isn't it ???
Doctor Who said...
More for matador:
And from what I can tell, you are a foreigner anyway. So as far as I'm concerned, you should drink a big glass of STFU when it comes to a group of Americans discussing domestic affairs...especially ones that have no bearing whatsoever on your life. And I'd suggest that OUR healthcare system has no bearing on your life in whatever bum-f***ed corner of the world you're in.
June 23, 2009 11:53 AM
what if I have TONS of relatives in US ????
Plus:If STFU means Stay The Fuck Out You should have written STFO.
and a part the fact that you sound a lot as MR,it's really funny that a "foreigner" is teaching you your grammar.
good bye Doc.
:)
ok looks like we are having a bit of a rational discussion for once so I'll go ahead and wade in.
Don't get all excited that it'll last, novw. It's only a matter of time before a Mike in MD or beavis or some other angry freak jumps in and starts mocking and deriding everyone that disagrees with their narrow world view.
It's only a matter of time before a Mike in MD or beavis or some other angry freak jumps in and starts mocking
And matador steps in right on cue...
No joke. My word verification is 'canard'.
nova_middle_man said:
Can't you see how much medicare and medicaid are spiraling out of control.
Have you noticed that private insurance is spiraling out of control? What is your solution for this?
@Doc,
looks like the ONLY ANGRY man (I mean :are you a human being ???)
in here is You...
so why are you wasting time with me ???
It's silly,isn't it ???
Don't worry. I won't waste any more after this post because, yes, it's silly. Actually, it's ridiculous and petty to mess with you angry assholes who are hellbent on causing a ruckus with your self-aggrandizing behavior.
what if I have TONS of relatives in US ????
Well, good for you. And I'll remind you that I live here and I have tons of relatives here too. The point isn't that you can't have a voice in the discussion. The point is that if you're just going to mock and deride people who actually live here and call out their opinion as inferior when you don't actually live here, then you need to stay out of the conversation. I'm an American. We're talking about the healthcare system in America. Ergo, my opinion matters.
Plus:If STFU means Stay The Fuck Out You should have written STFO.
No. STFU means Shut The Fuck Up
and a part the fact that you sound a lot as MR,it's really funny that a "foreigner" is teaching you your grammar.
I don't what sounding "as MR" means, which makes no sense and is hilarious because you somehow think you've taught me a grammar lesson. That is incredibly laughable. You haven't taught me shit except further resentment for the batshit crazy liberals who keep trying to shout above everyone else as if their opinion is all that matters.
Doctor Who said: Your talking points are a distortion.
Quite possibly. Like I said, I read this a long time ago, and I don't remember the source.
On the other hand, could your source be a conservative think tank? As we all know, partisan think tanks on both sides tend to put out questionable reports.
I would take "properly invested money set aside for retirement - and not into social security - would yield like six times more" with a bag of salt (or maybe several bags).
Even if this were true (which I strongly doubt), would this earn you enough for 30 years of retirement if you were lucky enough to live to see your 90s?
P.S. I would be interested in reading the report you mentioned if you could track it down.
I agree that think tanks on both sides of the aisle can put out misleading stuff. I'll see if I can't find that report for you and put a link on here.
Doctor Who said:
I'll see if I can't find that report for you and put a link on here.
Thanks. It is nice to have a congenial discussion, even if we ultimately cannot agree.
Ok good we are moving the conversation forward again
I think we can all agree healthcare costs are increasing which is why premiums are increasing.
These costs are increasing due to a variety of factors including poor food and diet choices, failure to act until conditions are severe aka hospital avoidance, fraud and abuse, liability and lawsuits, and many other factors
Solutions include
More catastrophic coverage plans
Co-ops
Reforming waste and fraud within medicare and medicaid
Upgrading IT systems
Increasing choices and compeition
Health Savings Accounts
Galveston County: A Model for Social Security Reform
Doctor Who said...
Well, good for you. And I'll remind you that I live here and I have tons of relatives here too. The point isn't that you can't have a voice in the discussion...We're talking about the healthcare system in America. Ergo, my opinion matters.
June 23, 2009 2:05 PM
nope.
My sister is american given that she married an american and they have 3 kids.
so "YES WE CAN" have a voice,
like it or not,
and also my opinion matters because they are PART OF MY FAMILY.
So keep on talking about healthcare system and let insults out.
people here already know that you are capable of huge insults,is no more a surprise.
kisses.
matador,
You're not contributing to the discussion. You're trying to start an argument over the relative worth of our opinion. That's a pointless discussion, and I'm not taking the bait.
And what part of my first paragraph necessitated the "nope" response from you.
Are you disagreeing that I'm an American? Are you disagreeing that I have tons of relatives who are? Are you disagreeing that my opinion matters?
See how pointless this is...and it comes from you sticking your nose where it doesn't belong. Talk about the issues - as the others and myself are trying to do - or go away.
Please don't keep being a snarky d'bag who keeps trotting out that hackneyed and trite "YES WE CAN" line while implying you are somehow superior to the rest of us because of your liberal positions and obsequious behavior to President Obama.
Doctor Who said...
matador,
, and I'm not taking the bait.
June 23, 2009 2:51 PM
a part the fact that it looks a lot like the opposite,
usually I stay in read only mode...just sometime I ask question without pretending to have the truth in my pocket and without pretending any answer...and just sometime I take issue when I find boorish people like you.
as I told you before :
keep on talking doc...
@nova-middle-man: I'd be THRILLED if I had access to a $2500-deductible catastrophic coverage plan for $100/month.
In my state, there's very little competition for health insurance, especially for high-deductible policies. As a very healthy 43yo female living where I do, my least expensive option is $193/month for a $5000-deductible plan - and that's assuming their underwriting dept decides I'm qualified for their "preferred" rates.
If the underwriters don't agree with my assessment of my own health, I'd be bumped up to their "basic" rate of $336/month for that same plan.
I probably *could* scrape together the $192/month by scrimping elsewhere - but frankly, the idea of paying Insurance Giant X nearly $200/month for such lousy coverage really offends me. I'd rather pay into a Medicare-style public program; I'd feel as if I were paying to help my govt/fellow plan members, and not simply adding to Insurance Giant X's bottom line.
matty,
Still not talking issues, I see. You're just an annoying prick then. Goodbye.
Also, I'm not convinced the analogy to mandatory car insurance fits.
Those of us who can't or won't pay for car insurance can opt out of car ownership altogether, and find other ways to get around. (Obviously this is easier in urbs/suburbs where public transit, short bikable commutes, carpooling co-workers, etc are viable options.)
But none of us can opt out of, um, body ownership, without making a drastic and irreversible decision.
Doctor Who Imposter, please stop shaming my favorite time-traveling illegal alien!
I do appreciate you providing the link for the “Galveston Plan”. It’s an interesting read. Some quick thoughts:
- First, the National Center for Policy Analysis is a conservative think-tank, which in and of itself is not a bad thing; however, check out this line from wikipedia: NCPA was a member organization of the Cooler Heads Coalition, which described itself as "an alliance of some two dozen non-profit public policy groups concerned about the implications of the Kyoto Protocol for consumers," and which was generally skeptical of the anthroprogenic global warming theory. Fighting the Kyoto Protocols and acting ‘skeptical’ about global warming are two huge red flags for me when considereing an organization’s objectivity.
- Second, the problem with their whole proposition and the idea of privitizing social security in general is that it’s a step backwards as a nation. The idea that you could save money for yourself, use it for your retirement and pass it on to your kids isn’t a new idea. It’s what we had before there was Social Security. If your family had money, they saved money for retirement and you inherited some. If you’re family was broke…oh well.
Doctor Who said...
matty,
"Still not talking issues, I see."
waiting for yours...I can't talk remember ?
"You're just an annoying prick then."
maricon.
"Goodbye."
are you leaving ?
@ Doctor Who:
Thank you for the link to Galveston County: A Model for Social Security Reform.
It looks pretty impressive. A minor quibble is that it looks like workers get from 1.5 to 3 times more than Social Security, not six times more as you mentioned earlier.
I am also a little uncertain about their calculations. The report says: Workers making $75,000 or more will nearly triple Social Security - $4,540 instead of $1,645.
Since Social Security is based on life-time earnings, is the report's $75,000 an average life-time earning (started at $50k, ended at $100k) or the maximum earning at retirement (started at $20k, ended at $75k)? This would make a big difference in any calculation. Are there any actuaries in the house?
There are some other questionable issues in the report, but I assume that you have no knowledge about this program other than the report itself, so I won't bother mentioning them.
Thanks to David and Alan for cordial responses. To Alan, you're right in that I was way off in my "remembering" of the investment potential of a private account versus social security. That was not an intentional blunder so I could just use hyperbole. Anyway, I agree that it would be wise to do a lot more research to try and clear up the "questionable" issues that are present before acting on anything.
Back to David in reponse to these comments:
acting ‘skeptical’ about global warming are two huge red flags for me when considereing an organization’s objectivity.
and
Second, the problem with their whole proposition and the idea of privitizing social security in general is that it’s a step backwards as a nation.
First, I don't think being "skeptical" about global warming necessarily calls into question an organization's or person's "objectivity." Isn't the very premise of objectivity to question the veracity of various claims, particularly ones that have far-reach implications and ramifications as are propsed in the response to global warming? To me, that's being objective and not going with the "herd mentality." I think there is enough evidence that we're doing damage to the planet, but I think it's important to focus on the things we can control and prevent and not send our economy back to the Stone Ages over something with which we have no control.
More briefly on your second point, I think many people would suggest that social security, with all of its mishandling and inadequate funding and being an otherwise albatross around the US government's neck, has been a step backwards for this nation.
Social Security and Health Care
Democrats shriek and howl about privitizing social security
Republicans shriek and howl about public health care
"More briefly on your second point, I think many people would suggest that social security, with all of its mishandling and inadequate funding and being an otherwise albatross around the US government's neck, has been a step backwards for this nation."
Agreeded and healthcare will be even worse. Why do we want more entitlement spending when we can't control the entitlements we have currently.
We need ACTUAL REFORM and TECHNOLOGICAL UPGRADES of Social Security and Health Care. Instead we get hacks arguing with each other by projecting the most extreme views of the other side.
theonlysaneone said...
I would much rather forgo insurance and spend money when I needed care than be forced to pay for an insurance plan that covers every little health cost.
What if you are in an accident? Let's say you are walking on your own property, hit an icy patch, or tripping over something, falling and breaking your (arm, leg, back)?
What if you have an undiagnosed, genetically-caused disease? A disease that if left untreated would lead to unbearable pain, blindness, loss of mobility, or even death? That disease isn't/can't be diagnosed until you're in middle age or later (meaning you might have passed it on to any or all of your children)? No test yet to determine if you have it or not, but the disease, after diagnosis, can be fixed, at a cost of $20,000 to $40,000, or more, for the operation(s), then a lifetime of continuing drugs?
Any of those examples (and we can provide many more) that fit your 'I'm a responsible adult and I can make my healthcare decisions without government interference' idoit's mentality? It doesn't look like it to me.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
@Doctor Who:
At 2:51 PM, you stated:
"matador,
You're not contributing to the discussion. You're trying to start an argument over the relative worth of our opinion. That's a pointless discussion, and I'm not taking the bait."
But at 11:53 AM, you said:
"More for matador:
And from what I can tell, you are a foreigner anyway. So as far as I'm concerned, you should drink a big glass of STFU when it comes to a group of Americans discussing domestic affairs...especially ones that have no bearing whatsoever on your life. And I'd suggest that OUR healthcare system has no bearing on your life in whatever bum-f***ed corner of the world you're in."
Sorry, Doctor, but with this post YOU initiated the argument over "the relative worth of our opinion", not Matador. Matador's post at 11:03 AM was a substantive one. He did at one point say "I like Mike in MD". I agree that Mike's posts are of uneven quality. He does go off half-cocked at times. But the substantive portions of his posts do contribute to discussions. I could do without Mike's anger, just as I could do without yours, Doctor.
I've watched Doctor Who for over three decades now. Doctor Who could be a friend of mine. And you, "Doctor Who" are no Doctor. (Apologies to Lloyd Bentsen and John F. Kennedy.)
@polls_apart:
thanks.
:)
@matador:
My ancestry is Ukrainian-Russian-German. I know you're Italian (that was meant for you, "Doctor Who", if you're still reading this). But as far as I'm concerned, Matador, you're my "landsman" (in Yiddish, means someone originating from same country or region).
Just curious, Matador, did you get the closing reference to LLoyd Bentsen's jab at Dan Quayle in the 1988 Vice-Presidential debate? I tried to help out with my "apologies".
"My ancestry is Ukrainian-Russian-German."
ola,Hermano,
are you allowed to talk about healthcare reform in US ???
plus,
I made some research:
"...But during a 1988 vice presidential debate in Omaha, Bentsen delivered one of the most devastating slights ever. Turning to his GOP opponent, Sen. Dan Quayle, who had defended his inexperience as similar to that of John F. Kennedy, Bentsen responded with scathing disdain: "Senator," he said, "I served with Jack Kennedy. I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you are no Jack Kennedy...."
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/politics/2008/01/17/the-mother-of-all-put-downs.html
but still don't get what You Sir,mean...some explanation will be appreciated.
bye.
:)
@matador:
The close of my post at 12:03 AM went as follows:
"I've watched Doctor Who for over three decades now.
Doctor Who could be a friend of mine.
And you, 'Doctor Who' are no Doctor."
The cadence here is supposed to mimic Bentsen's jab at Quayle regarding his comparing himself to JFK.
got it.
:)
p.s.
just some memories:
I was a kid when JFK was killed.
But I remember as it was yesterday my mother and my father crying at loud.
If you'd like to know more about the health care, and how Israel can possibly be the mold for the ideal system, then I can recomment this article right here: http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/showlink.aspx?bookmarkid=PVXXZD53FW4&preview=article&linkid=5f764e8e-a3c8-4e1c-aeb3-14a43931bd74&pdaffid=ZVFwBG5jk4Kvl9OaBJc5%2bg%3d%3d
Sincerely,
MediaMentions
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