6.15.2009

Polling Predicted Intimidation -- and Not Necessarily Ahmadinejad's Victory

Ken Ballen and Patrick Doherty, who work for a nonprofit group called Terror Free Tomorrow: The Center for Public Opinion, are out with a comment in today's Washington Post which claims that their poll of 1,001 Iranians conducted last month predicted Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's victory.

Ballen and Doherty are doing admirable and important work. Regular readers will know how difficult it is to conduct a good poll in the United States. Take that difficulty to the fifth power, and you'll have some sense for how difficult it is to conduct a good poll in Iran.

Unfortunately, while the poll itself may be valid, Ballen and Doherty's characterization of it is misleading. Rather than giving one more confidence in the official results, the poll raises more questions than it resolves.

Ballen and Doherty wrote in the Post that their poll showed "Ahmadinejad leading by a more than 2 to 1 margin -- greater than his actual apparent margin of victory in Friday's election." But let's look at what their poll (.pdf) actually said:



Well, indeed, Ahmadinejad has more than twice as much of the vote as his next-closest rival, Mir Hossein Mousavi. But he also only has 33.8 percent of the total vote. Between them, indeed, Ahmadinejad and Mousavi only have 47.4 percent of the vote. Where does the rest of the vote go?

Not to the other candidates, Karroubi and Rezai. The poll -- correctly, apparently -- predicted that they would only account for a small fraction of the vote.

Some 7.6 percent of the respondents said they weren't planning to vote for anybody. There's nothing particularly suspicious about this; turnout in Iran, while high by American standards, is certianly not 100 percent and this poll was not screened for likelihood of voting, as most American-based polls are. An earlier question, Q25, asked people directly whether they intended to vote in the June elections and 6.8 percent said no, closely matching this figure.

It's the other two categories, however, which give one pause.

Firstly, some 27.4 percent of Iranians told TFT they were undecided. By comparison, a month before the U.S. presidential election, about 5-9 percent of respondents generally claimed to be undecided. Perhaps it is folly to try and extrapolate the Western experience to Iran -- but for 27 percent of the voters to claim to be undecided one month before a high-profile, high-turnout election strikes me as unlikely. Iran is a relatively sophisticated and dare I say stubborn country where people debate politics regularly and vigorously. They might not have told TFT whom they were planning to support -- but that doesn't mean they were truly undecided.

And indeed, the next category speaks directly to this. Some 15.1 percent of respondents refused to disclose who they were voting for. This is not mere modesty; indeed, the Iranians in TFT's survey were very forthcoming about a whole host of controversial issues, ranging from their perception on Iran's governance structure to their feelings about the United States and Israel to their opinions on Iran's nuclear program. On these questions, just a couple percent of the respondents refused to answer -- but the number shot up to 15 percent for the Presidential tally.

Ballen and Doherty claim that the forthcoming and surprisingly liberal responses to these other sorts of questions give their poll more credibility:

Some might argue that the professed support for Ahmadinejad we found simply reflected fearful respondents' reluctance to provide honest answers to pollsters. Yet the integrity of our results is confirmed by the politically risky responses Iranians were willing to give to a host of questions. For instance, nearly four in five Iranians -- including most Ahmadinejad supporters -- said they wanted to change the political system to give them the right to elect Iran's supreme leader, who is not currently subject to popular vote. Similarly, Iranians chose free elections and a free press as their most important priorities for their government, virtually tied with improving the national economy. These were hardly "politically correct" responses to voice publicly in a largely authoritarian society.
Ballen and Doherty's point would be worthwhile -- if support for Ahmadinejad was as robust as they were claiming. But instead, the presidential preferences of almost half of their survey cohort are unaccounted for -- 42.5 percent either refused to answer the question or said they were undecided, and another 7.6 percent said they weren't planning to vote at all.

While it is dangerous to make inferences about the preferences of undecided voters, the fact that the Iranians in their survey did tend to favor reformist positions on most issues, and had generally tepid reviews of Mr. Ahmadinejad performance, would seem to provide a few hints. For example:
* 68 percent of respondents said they favoried Iran working with the United States to end the Iraq war;
* 77 percent favored normalized trade relations with the United States;
* 76 percent favor having the Supreme Leader be directly elected, rather than undemocratically appointed.
And on Mr. Ahmadinejad's performance:
* 45 percent said Ahmadinejad's policies had succeeded in reducing unemployment; 44 percent said they had not succeeded;
* 28 percent said Ahmadinejad had fulfilled his promise to "put oil money on the tables of the people themselves"; 58 percent said he had not succeeded.
The Iranians were more conservative on other issues -- they overwhelmingly favored the development of a nuclear energy program, for instance, although were more evenly split about nuclear weapons. They had a quite negative perception about the United States government, although they were largely sympathetic toward the American people themselves.

Overall, however, the poll revealed that Iranians gave Ahmadinejad tepid reviews on the performance of the economy, and favored a much less bellicose foreign policy than he has pursued. One would think that under those circumstances, the incumbent would be in a fight for his political future.

Let's accept the poll's contention that about one-third of Iranians -- or about 36 percent of those who were planning to vote -- are hard-core supporters of Mr. Ahmadinejad. There are certainly conservative elements in Iran, and I have no particular reason to doubt this figure. That still leaves Ahmadinejad far short of the margin he would need to carry the election, however.

But here's the catch. If you have 15 percent of the electorate refusing to say whom they'll vote for, and if probably about half of the 27 percent in the "don't know" category are in fact "soft" refusals who are similarly reluctant to reveal their preferences, those votes won't necessarily have wound up in Mr. Mousavi's column. If these Iranians were too intimidated to reveal their preferences to a pollster, they may also have been too intimidated to vote as they really pleased on Friday.

The swing votes in Iran are not those blue-haired ladies who take 40 minutes in the ballot booth and call the election clerk over every few minutes. They are rather the perhaps 30 percent of the population who were trying weigh the potential risk to their persons or their standing in the community in voting against Mr. Ahmadinejad, against what might be a relatively small benefit in voting for Mr. Mousavi, whose reforms could be easily vetoed by the Ayatollah. These swing voters may also have been worried that their votes wouldn't have been counted anyway: about one-third of Iranians in the survey didn't believe, didn't say or didn't know whether they expected to have a free and fair election.

If you take that 30 percent swing vote and add it to Ahmadinejad's 33 percent base, he could have won the election with 63 percent of the vote, as he ostensibly did on Friday. If you take it and add it to Mousavi's column, Ahmadinejad would have gone down to a solid defeat.

The point that few commentators are realizing -- Al Giordano is an exception -- is that this story really isn't about the way that the votes were counted. It's about whether Iran is capable at this point of having an election in which the democratic will of its electorate is properly reflected. If Ahmadinejad hired a bunch of thugs to hold every Iranian at gunpoint while they were casting their ballots, it would not have been difficult for him to get 63 percent of the vote -- indeed, he'd probably have wound up with very close to 100 percent. This would be an election -- and there would be no need at all to tamper with the results. But it wouldn't be an expression of democracy. We need to separate out those two concepts. Ahmadinejad, as far as we know, did not go so far as to hold anyone at gunpoint. But the tentacles of fear in Iran run deep.

72 comments

Steve said...

Finally, a sensible analysis of the election. Thank you.

newyorker2874999 said...

Any chance we'll see a similar analysis of the next election in North Korea? (Just kidding, Nate)

dansalmon said...

Thanks Nate! Agree that "Ballen and Doherty are doing admirable and important work", but given the limitations you point out, it would seem they are undermining that work by making such a broad claim of electoral legitimacy for the Iranian election based on a single pre-election poll.

Me, not you said...

Follow at twitterfall.com, or just follow Persianwiki on Twitter. Students died tonight (confirmed by AP), millions at rally (confirmed by BBC and AP). If you can't follow on Twitter, follow on HuffingtonPost.

Mitrazaza said...

regarding last few lines:

there most certainly was an effort to prevent the most liberal provinces from voting.
1. There were severe ballot shortages (my mother waited in the heat with a bum leg from 11am to 4pm before she finally got to vote)
2. contrary to precedent the polling stations were closed even though there were people still waiting to vote. In prior elections, polling was extended as late as even 1 am if necessary.


Thank you so much for covering this!!

dre7861 said...

Nate - one of the best analysis of the Iranian election I've read so far. The Washington Post also makes note that Ballen and Doherty poll was taken in Mid-March. Like you I hate to make assumptions that Western culture translates to Iranian culture but as you well know three weeks is like eons in political time. In the recent VA primary for Governor look how quickly Deeds rose to end up winning the primary.

While I think that Iran is stuck with Ahmadinejad - there's no way the Supreme Leader will take back his cangrats to Ahmadinejad - I do think there seems to be some irregularities about this election that don't pass the smell test (For example, how did they get the results from hand printed ballots so fast, a couple of hours). But then I can sympathize with the Iranians - I felt the same way back in 2000 and suspect I should have felt the same way in 2004 as well.

Patrick said...

I've been frustrated with the media reports of "irregularities" without any concrete data or analysis, so thank you! I hope this gets picked up.

h0tbl4ckd3s14t0 said...

Are there crosstabs available? It would be very interesting to see how the undecideds and refused answered other politically sensitive questions and how those compare those and demographics to people who claimed to be voting for Ahmadinejad v. Mousavi. That would give a better insight into the political leanings of those folk.

Michel Nivard said...

Nate you really made up for earlier posts! I would like you as a statistics guru to adress the strange distribution in "last digits" in the vote totals when split by different regions commenters on your earlier post showed that the vote totals ended with the number 0 significantly more then with other numbers... this should not happen if vote totals are not tempered with, or at least its highly unlikely.

So what is your take on that?

Alex S. said...

Also remember that womens' rights was a big issue of the campaign. Add this to the very conservative mentality of Iran and you get another source of intimidation: active or passive domestic violence.

mehran said...

What the analysis failed to understand is this: in a societ0079 that people are not used to answering polls openly, where saying you favor the opposition (with fear of retribution), the vast majority of folks who "refused" to say who they vote for, and folks who "don't know" would not have voted for ahmadinejad. But they would not have been too intimidated to go vote on Friday as the article claims.

Secondly, it is not clear where the polls were collected. Which cities? Which parts of Tehran? The sample size is small, but the population sample is critical.

Gowitta said...

Good analysis. However, there is nothing "conservative" in opposing the foreign policy of the U.S. In fact, one would have to be a dead-ender to support it.

bcbigcow said...

Very nice analysis - and I second the above call for more crosstabs analysis.

I was a bit surprised, though, that you didn't take Ballen and Doherty to task more on the fact that:

a) as a commenter above mentions, their poll was from weeks before the election, and a lot can happen in a few weeks.

Moreover, b) Theirs is not the only poll; in fact, of all the polls Sexton cited here on the 12th, this poll had the weakest support for Mousavi and the other secondary candidates. While there's too little/too sketchy data to claim their poll is an outlier or that the polls prove a shift since the TFT survey, in the very least it casts serious doubt on their rather forceful conclusion that the election reflected the will of the people.

I suppose it's normal for pollsters to just trust their own polls, but we outsiders should be sure to look at *all* the evidence.

STepper said...

I thought that Petekent was merely an idiot when it came to domestic matters. But in his blathering posts on this thread Petekent shows us he is multi-talented. And, all of his screeds are merely an excuse to complain about Obama. To PeteKent everything is Obama's fault.

A mind like that (as shown at the Holocaust Museum last week) is dangerous.

PeteKent - crawl back into your hole.

As for this thread, Nate has done a good job, but the authors of the article he posted presumably know a bit more about Iran than even Nate does. So, until further notice I'll go with their analysis, not Nate's.

What I am hoping for is a coverup that will ignite a true revolution in Iran. Ayatollah Khameni has promised an investigation, and he will be unable to provide one. So, the powderkeg has been lit.

AJS said...

What's interesting about this poll is that its results appear to speak to vote suppression.

If you look at only decided voters in the poll, Ahmadinejad wins 68% of their votes (50% of voters were decided). He "actually" won about 63%, so this overstated his support.

With turnout at 80% -- and assuming all those who named a candidate actually showed up to cast a ballot for that candidate -- that means 30% of the "don't know" and "refused" didn't actually vote.

Of those "refuse" and "don't know" who did vote, then -- if the poll is correct -- only 57% voted for Ahmadinejad, while 42% voted for Mousavi. Yes, that's still a majority for Ahmadi, but it's far below his previously declared 68% level of support.

So what this shows us is that those who "refused" or "don't know" preferred Mousavi to Ahmadinejad -- possibly even by a much larger margin than the results indicate -- but didn't vote.

Whether this is because of fear, social pressures, long lines, shortage of ballots, closing the polls early, etc. is not entirely clear. But to me, it's quite clear that many anti-Ahmadi Iranians just didn't vote at all. That, more than doctored results, may be the biggest issue in this Iranian election and others going forward.

juvanya said...

Check out this amazing video of the million man protest.

If only we did this in 2000, eh?

Perfect Tommy said...

This is fascinating stuff. Do you think they'll have some kind of uprising, or a plausible enough one to make the ayatollah bend?

Oh, and, uh, liberals liberals liberals, I guess. Obama. Liberals liberals, Obama. Obama. Liberals. Just to stay on topic.

John Figliozzi said...

One other factor that's gone unmentioned in every analysis I've read thus far is that opposition candidates had been pre-screened with all of the more "liberal" candidates ruled unacceptable by the theocracy. It would appear that this would have to be weighed in some fashion, given that a significant proportion of the electorate is to the left of even the most liberal candidates remaining. In other words, the action of ruling some candidates out skews the center of the electorate.

Justice4All said...

This piece reminded me that we need to pass the Employee Free Choice Act immediately.

capt said...

Great piece!

Thanks

(good comments too)

I always learn something here.

Mark said...

Awesome analysis, Nate. It's going to be interesting to see what happens here. I grieve for a broken Iran, but this was all terribly inevitable. And who is to blame for that? (The United States, partly.)

Funny that conservatives of a feather are flocking together, with some of our ardent anti-Obama guys desperate to portray the reelection of the man they've called the next Hitler as a refutation of Obama's foreign policy. How sick is it that people are so desperate to vindicate their ideologies that they'll cross their fingers that the world suffers through another four years of conservative government in Iran?

Pragmatus said...

Whether you are for EFCA or against it, its future is doubtful at this point.

I am not convinced of the severity of the demonstrations by the opposition in Iran. The clip that Juvanya linked to could have been of anything. I don't read Arabic (or Farsi) so there is no way of telling what those images were about.

Keep in mind that there were also demonstrations in Tehran after the two most recent presidential elections there, so what we might be seeing is merely a normal reaction, not the start of widespread dissent.

I agree with Nate's analysis. I think the election was probably rigged. Remember that this is the regime that started out by lopping the heads off anyone who disagree with its policies or direction. Many thousands have been executed, so a little vote-tampering for the mullahs is as innocent as a trip to the candy store.

Doug said...

It's interesting that they cite the high number "politically incorrect" responses (ie, in support of political reform) to support the idea that Ahmadinejad's candidacy is popular. If a large number of respondents also said they supported Ahmadinejad (as the article misleadingly suggests) we might have to look for some explanation of why a reform-minded electorate supported the conservative incumbent. However, since a small number (only 1 in 3) actually said they supported Ahmadinejad, wouldn't the general support for reform suggest that the reformist candidate would be favored by many of those who didn't state a preference in the presidential race? I think it is certainly possible that people would favor both reform and Ahmadinejad (voters often vote against their own interests or policy preferences for a variety of reasons, and some voters may have been motivated by other issues that those of us in the West aren't focused on), but it is somewhat paradoxical to use popular support for reform as evidence that the conservative incumbent is winning, particularly when the evidence of his own popular support turns out to be so thin.

juvanya said...

@Pragmatus:
It's the large rally that has been widely reported. You can see Mousavi and two other people standing on something with cell phones in hand.

@Commenters:
Nate doesnt need to make up for anything. There was nothing wrong with that other post. Just because some of you suffer from PeteKent syndrome (inability to read more than a few lines) doesnt mean you need to disparage Nate.

I strongly disagree with his assessment here, but you dont see me calling this a horrible post.

beavis said...

What I find amusing is that lots of people misunderstood Nate's first post about this election. He never said it wasn't rigged, he was pointing out the flawed use of statistics to try to prove a point.

Good write-up Nate.

**********************
If what you say is true PK(and you have never been right), about twice as many conservatives, what does it say about the republican party having 22%ish of the people who identify with their party?

What does it say that a huge chunk of the "conservative majority" voted for Obama, who is quite moderate.

DaveNY said...

beavis -- exactly. That's what draws so many smart people to Nate's analysis. He follows the numbers wherever they lead, even if they don't back his own position. He's resolutely stood up for good data when it backs someone else, and rejected bad data/analysis even when it agrees with him. That and a clear line between the personal opinion and the mathematical analysis are what make Nate's posts always a worthwhile read.

And while I hate feeding the trolls, I'm always amused by the "you complained when we did it, so now you should let us complain, but not complain about us complaining, even though we complained when you complained when we did it..." Circular stupidity at its finest. Two wrongs don't merely make a right -- they make two!

Adrian said...

So if you assume Ahmadinejad was intimidating voters at the election, this data indicates they were also intimidated at a poll. If you don't assume Ahmadinejad was intimidating voters at the election, this data indicates the poll results reflect the election results. Ie, this polling data is just letting people follow their "gut".

So what is your hypothesis on why people would be intimidated to say they would vote against Ahmadinejad, but not intimidated to say they want the Supreme Leader to stand for election? The Supreme Leader is the real power in Iran, so it just doesn't make sense.

Drowzee said...

PeteKent:
An interesting thought is that, since your side can't actually decide who is the leader of the party, your worst extremists (and terrorists) are free to listen to your conservative conspiracy theory echo chamber and fall prey to confirmation bias.

With no one to control your thoughts and make you simmer down, the right wing rage builds against problems that don't exist and results in the murders we've seen in the past few weeks. They touted the lines you follow, they believe the lies your side spread during the election and continues to perpetuate because of flaws every human is hard-wired with, the mental shortcuts that make "Drill Baby Drill" somehow a feasible solution to the current energy crisis, that automatically gives more credit evidence that supports your view than otherwise.


Thank your trustworthy fox news and limbaugh for adding fuel to the fire, and thank yourself for perpetuating unwarranted hatred that results in the spilled blood of your fellow americans.

Keep calling it socialism. Keep calling it facism. Keep calling it reverse racism. Keep calling Obama a Muslim. Go ahead.

But every time your side snaps and shoots, remember:

You, PeteKent, helped pull the trigger.
You are Baghdad Bob.
You are Osama.
You are part of the face that spreads blind hatred, not reason.

Pete Kent, you are a terrorist.

And there is no denying that accusation. The proof is in your posts.

Remember, The united states overthrew a democracy in order to bring down the price of oil with a pro-west monarchy that was overthrown and replaced by an anti-west Islamic fundamentalist state... and this Iranian election is the result of that short-sighted action.

America is a great country, but that does not make everything we've ever done right or even in our own long-term interests.

Pragmatus said...

Gee—all the links PeteKent refers us to are on “tinyurl”. I wonder if that’s an irrationally conservative website for the tiny-brained?

Nah. Too obvious.

Fat Tuesday said...

Just curious...is this the same PeteKent as before?

This one uses a generic blogger profile, although access is disabled, whereas the previous one was linked to a typepad profile. Some of the hyperbole used by the current one almost makes me think this is just a sockpuppet, but after five months, ol' Pete may have finally succumbed to Obama Derangement Syndrome.

For the record, I'm a conservative, but I can't help but think it cheapens the dialogue to go on such fanatical rantings.

Of course, you get a little of that from both sides of the aisle here, so maybe it's just a shouting match to see who can yell the loudest.

beavis said...


Yes, Obama is a fascist. Yes, he is a socialist
.

PK, if we didn't already know you were a dumbass, this would have confirmed it.

Do you even know what those terms mean?

The fact is that republican ideology(which is much more fascist then Obamas) gave us this mess. It will take a long time to fix, but progress is being made.

You know, you would be happier with the other retards at freerepublic.com. People here tend to prefer intelligent thought, freeptards love knee-jerk extremism.

juvanya said...

Pete, was 9/11 Bush's fault or Clinton's?

beavis said...

And stop with the leader of the GOP shit. Who was THE leader of the Dems before Obama?

Howard Dean - the architect of the 50 state plan that utterly decimated the GOP in 2006 and 2008.

You didn't know that? What a shock.

Unlike the current head of the GOP, Dean was a true leader that led the party back on track. The GOP is rudderless and devoid of ideas; other then having a circle jerk around the grave of Reagan(who started this descent) and spewing hate and division.

mob said...

Nate said "...those blue-haired ladies who take 40 minutes in the ballot booth and call the election clerk over every few minutes."

sorry nate but that sure sounds like a sexist and anti-oldies comment. i have waited at a polling place just as long for men- both young and old.

my senior citizen parents waited in line at an Obama rally. They waited in line each time they voted for over 60 years.

your youth is showing and not in a good light.


BTW- who cares what color a person's hair is and there is certainly nothing wrong with blue hair.

Fat Tuesday said...

Pete, was 9/11 Bush's fault or Clinton's?

See, questions like this are what get passed between the fanatics of the two parties and further divide us.

I don't know what your answer would be, juvanya, but I know mine:

Neither. The fault of 9/11 lies with Osama bin Laden and dozens of other terrorists, both living and deceased. I hope you concur with that.

beavis said...

Bush has to take some responsibility for ignoring warnings.

Ironically the data gathered that gave rise to the warnings came from a captured terrorist who was tried and convicted in the US court system, is incarcerated in the US federal prison system and was not tortured.

Opus 132 said...

Just some thoughts:

I am constantly amazed by the fact that PeteKent still is able to get intelligent posters to respond to his moronic rants.

Is there anybody here who doesn't fully believe that the Iranian vote was rigged?

And finally,it's been two weeks since the Minnesota Supremes heard the Franken-Coleman case. What the hell is taking so long for a decision?

Fat Tuesday said...

Bush's culpability with regards to the "fault" of 9/11 is immaterial to the question that was asked.

Neither Bush nor Clinton were at fault for 9/11. A group of lunatics planned and carried out a murderous plot. Bush did not murder 3,000 people.

Just like when a helpless, innocent civilian wanders down a dark and dangerous alley and is murdered by some thug. It's not their fault they were murdered. That lies with the offender. They may have been unwise to go where they did, but it's not their fault.

Please get over your Bush Derangement Syndrome soon, beavis. Its contagious effects make the entire country sicker.

Erik Nilsson said...

@mob " '...those blue-haired ladies who take 40 minutes in the ballot booth and call the election clerk over every few minutes.' sorry nate but that sure sounds like a sexist and anti-oldies comment."

In Nate's defense, I'll allow that since women live longer than average, there are significantly more very old women than very old men.

But I agree with mob that there are probles with Nate's comment. First, it doesn't take 40 minutes to vote in Iran, since Iran doesn't have to vote on a plethora of questions. In this respect, Iran is like most of the world and unlike America. Second, old American ladies may vote slow, but the stats I've seen suggest they get 'er done, often with a lower undervote than, um, blue-haired punks voting in their first election.

Speaking of election assistance, I like to think of myself as pretty hale and healthy, but I'm farsighted. I forgot my glasses in the last election. Thankfully, I had a magnifying glass in my wallet, or I would have had to ask one of the blue-haired ladies running the place to read me my ballot.

STepper said...

Opus - I don't believe the vote was rigged. But I do believe the reported "vote count" is totally fictitious and has nothing to do with any real count. I don't think there has been a real count.

I am hoping for a continued cover up, which is the only way to gain momentum for real change in Iran. Had Mousavi won it would have lead, possibly, to minimal, incremental change. This might topple the current autocratic, theocratic regime.

Coupled with Obama's soft diplomacy (and speech in Egypt), this could be of real benefit to the world.

Opus 132 said...

If a winner is announced and there has been no vote count,isn't that a rigged election? Or should I be saying a fixed election?

y2fizzy said...

I'm having some trouble reconciling the concept of excessive intimidation with the (seemingly) high voter turnout documented in the previous post. It seems as though suppressing turnout (for one's opponents) by intimidation would be a considerably easier task than intimidating people to actively vote for a specific candidate. I'd be interested to hear more on this, if anyone has any thoughts.

In the poll question, 50% of respondents did not identify a specific candidate they would vote for, yet one month later we see >80% turnout? Coupled with Mitrazaza's points, things look fishy indeed.

Anonymous said...

Has anyone considered the possibility of this whole episode being a destabilization attempt by the West a la how they installed the Shah? That this "green revolution" thing is a complete Sham?

Quick and easy way to get what they want in Iran without sacrificing any troops, get their hands on the last goldmine of oil that they don't have control of, and take out the last "unfriendly" government in the Middle East that refuses to play by the West's rules. After toppling the theocracy and installing the puppets, free-market "reform" can begin in earnest and the repression that exists in countries like Peru will flourish. The powers that be over here can then put their fingers in their ears and yell out "But it's democracy" while nothing changes for the people on the ground in terms of a truly free government.

Miguel said...

I want to third the call for an analysis of the cross-tabs:
1. Look at the response pattern of Ahmadinejad voters in other questions.
2. Look at the response pattern of Moussavi voters in other questions.
3. Take the non-respondents on the presidential-election question, and do a probabilistic classification of their voting intention based on their other responses.

If done right this should be fairly reliable. (Not sure what the best classification procedure is, but a simple and solid way start may be to use the the responses from the supporters of each candidate do define conditional probabilities and use that and their other responses as observations to infer a posterior probability that a given respondent is a supporter of either candidate. I'll be happy to run this analysis if you can get the data to me - reply to this comment if you wish to contact me.)

zinfan94 said...

Nate, I agree with much of your analysis, but given the nature of how candidates are chosen in the Iranian political system, I would think there would be a wider spread of votes among the candidates. This has been true in the past, and could have happened in this election. It is possible that the actual votes for Ahmadinejad would have left him in third place, and out of the run-off election scheduled for the following Friday.

Off-topic: You have a poster that is dominating the posting with off-topic posts... I suggest you delete all his posts that are not concerning the subject of your blog post. It will keep the discussion on target, and avoid needless rebuttal to the off-topic nonsense he is posting.

zinfan94 said...

to the Anonymous poster, who suggested the possibility that the Western governments are behind this... This seems completely nonsensical, and you aren't understanding the reality of Iranian politics.

All of the candidates are within the power structure of the Iranian theocracy, so in effect, there is very limited chance these guys would have deep foreign ties. Mousavi's most important supporter, former president Rafsanjani, has been part of the power elite since the 1979 revolution.

This is what is really ticking a lot of the supporters off... Mousavi doesn't really go far enough for many of the voters supporting him, but he was the best they could hope for. They are asking, Why after hand selecting such a limited group of candidates, would they consider rigging the election? Any of the candidates would be deemed acceptable.

The reason Ahmadinejad (and Khamenei) rigged this vote, was to keep Rafsanjani in check. But they may have goofed up... It is possible that Rafsanjani is threatening to remove Khamenei as Supreme Leader (Rafsanjani heads up the committee that can replace the Supreme Leader). The powerful demonstrations showing support for fair elections, has weakened Khamenei's standing.

In short, this is all about internal political maneuvering. The only people trying to make this election about "foreign interference" is the Ahmadinejad camp, and no one is buying that nonsense.

Here is a starting level discussion of the political implications of the massive protests:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/15/gerges.iran.election/index.html

Aptenodyte said...

Iranian People in general and anti-government people specifically are suspicious of phone calls, they would always assume the worst (government intelligence agencies) so given this cultural behavior people who refused to answer, I would assume would vote for a reformist candidate (either one) on the other hand if I am voting for a incumbent conservative my feelings would have been hardened by a month to election.

penknife said...

@y2fizzy: Things are different in a dictatorship. People don't speak their mind too easily, being much more distrustful (and with reason). So if 50% didn't specify their vote, there's a good chance it's because they don't want to specify, not because they didn't vote.

beavis said...

Just like when a helpless, innocent civilian wanders down a dark and dangerous alley and is murdered by some thug. It's not their fault they were murdered. That lies with the offender. They may have been unwise to go where they did, but it's not their fault.

Please get over your Bush Derangement Syndrome soon, beavis. Its contagious effects make the entire country sicker
.

Bush wasn't an innocent person walking down a dark alley. He is the person standing across the street that saw the thugs entry the alley 10 minutes before the innocent persona and did nothing but smile and wave.

Once Bush and Cheney are standing trial for war crimes and crimes against the constitution, then I will say nothing about it.

It is pathetic dumbasses like you who cheered on the illegal, immoral and dangerous actions of the previous administration that gave them the power to do so.

beavis said...

Obama's fascistic impulses have been on display since his inauguration when he began to systematically take direct control of US business and begin to exert real dominance over decision making and business leadership. This is the very essence of fascism.

PK, you are a total dumbass.

If the federal government bailed out the auto companies(done on Bush's watch by the way, guess Bush is a fascist also), then those companies would be dead, and tens of thousands out of work.

The taxpayer is a majority shareholder. If you had bailed out the car companies, don't you think you should have say in how it is run until you at least recoup your investment?

So what is the difference?

You still don't understand the difference between socialists and fascists.

If Hitler had called his party the National Free Market Party, would it matter?

beavis said...

Now millions are starving and out of work, his economic Stim-U-Less an apparent failure. Yet he and his media are stressing "morning again in America". In fact the tent cities are coming. The homeless are multiplying as they have never before. The people's privation has never been greater. Yet he is not being held accountable.

Are you kidding me?

The banks are starting to repay their bailout money. They are loosening credit.

Of course morons like you think that if everything wasn't fixed on Jan 21, he failed. Things are slowly improving, and your naysaying isn't going to stop it. I know you jack off to the thought of the total economic collapse of America but you will be disappointed.

Of course, since every single prediction you have posted here has been proved wrong, I would only be nervous about our future if you saw any sunlight at all.

The only failure here is that of trickle-down policies and other repressive economic policies of the republican party..

Me, not you said...

PeteKent-

Iran is more important than the racist hate you have displayed oin this sire for months.

Shut up and go fuck yourself.

Also ask your tight white ass why youwant a democracy to fail in Iran - because your racist hate of Obama outlasts common sense.

Gun, head, go do it now.

Dan said...

Any political junkie worth his salt knows that an incumbent, with only 34% of the electorate saying they're willing to vote for him a month away from the vote, is toast. I read that poll before the election and thought Ahmadinejad was going down.

Pragmatus said...

PeteKent...

Your crack bills must be enormous. Only a crackhead could spew as much empty crap as you do, for paragraph after paragraph.

Opus 132...

The delay in the Minnesota Supreme Court decision might be an ominous sign. When a decision is simple and logical, it can be rendered without much fuss, but when a decision reflects the jurists' personal prejudices (i.e. they "legislate from the bench") then they have to take their time to formulate their arguments so that they make some kind of sense. I'm afraid that's what might be happening here. The MNSC wants the Republican to win, but to do so will require an enormous upheaval of law, precedent and common sense, so they are taking their time. My guess is that they will "legislate" that the way MN holds its elections is unconstitutional, and therefore there will need to be a revote in the Senate race, so all their focus now is on preemptively trying to tamp down the expected uproar. Otherwise the MNSC could have spewed out a report in fifteen minutes. All they would have needed to say was "Court upholds findings of Special Elections Court" and be done with it.

Matt said...

This is GREAT NEWS!! For the Pahlavi Family!!



wv: aninia: at least one of the posters to this site is aninia.

Juris said...

When public opinion polling began to be common in the Soviet Union in the 1980s -- during the period of Gorbachev's perestroika (restructuring) and glasnost' (openness) -- researchers discovered that the public responded with "no opinion" or "don't know" at a very high rate (25-40% was common).

Researchers did not attribute this to intimidation -- as Nate does for the DK's in Iran -- but instead to the fact that a lot of people just weren't used to being asked their "own opinion." In effect, they didn't have formulated or crystallized opinions on many subjects.

Of course, for many there was some "learned" sense of intimidation -- perhaps better understood as "caution" based on history. In a private conversation among family and close friends (but perhaps not on the street or in public settings) they said what they thought. But to have a "public" opinion or to strike up a candid conversation with a stranger on the bus, or any person in authority, wasn't necessarily a good idea. And so people had private opinions but not public ones.

For the survey that Nate reviews, who do the respondents think they're talking to? Who thinks talking over the telephone is anonymous or assured of confidentiality? Even without any direct intimidation, people have probably learned not to speak frankly with strangers, even to polite ones who call out of nowhere to ask their opinion.

juvanya said...

@zinfan94:
"The reason Ahmadinejad (and Khamenei) rigged this vote, was to keep Rafsanjani in check. But they may have goofed up... It is possible that Rafsanjani is threatening to remove Khamenei as Supreme Leader (Rafsanjani heads up the committee that can replace the Supreme Leader). The powerful demonstrations showing support for fair elections, has weakened Khamenei's standing."

This is essentially what I've sort of been thinking. Rafsanjani might try to power play the establishment. The question is: Will he reform? Will he submit to elections or give up his powers? As far as I know, somewhat.

Opus 132 said...

Pragmatus-

Your thoughts have occurred to me too.In asking the question I think I was trying to reassure myself.

Although not as pessimistic as you,I am getting worried.Particularly about the two recusals.

Why do you think that the Minnesota Supremes want Coleman to win?

doug White said...

Wow. I can't believe that everyone has missed the most stunning revelation in this poll...4 out of 5 Iranians (that's 80% folks) want to vote for their Supreme Leader.
When do you ever see 80% on any poll.
This revolution is not going way.

Lauren said...

I saw the piece in WaPo this morning and was somewhat skeptical, it's great to see a thorough deconstruction of numbers and methods.

Two additional points:

1. It's my understanding that the Iranian political campaigns are quite short compared to those in America (months, not years), so it's possible that public opinion can change quite a bit in a few short weeks. Thus, that the poll was taken a mere month before the election date does not have the same significance as it would here.

2. Was this poll taken before or after the debate? Everything I have read indicates that the debates were very Damaging to Ahmadinejad politically and precipitated the reversal in public opinion.

Pragmatus said...

Opus 132…

I’m not sure the MNSC wants Coleman to win, it’s just that I can’t think of any other reason for such a delay. The questioning June 1 was very straightforward, so it’s hard to see why a decision would require two weeks (plus) to formulate. As I said earlier, unless the court has seen fit to stray far from its mandate, an opinion could be written in two shakes, so putting two and two together I fear the worst.

데이빛 / Mithridates said...

One other issue needs to be pointed out, the age of the poll. Here's part of my comment on another site about this poll that explains it:

---

The poll was conducted before the official election season had begun - from the 11th to the 20th of May, but the candidates were not even officially announced until the 20th. It wasn't until after that that all the debates started, the mass rallies, the controversy about Rahnavard's Ph.D and all the rest. I read this poll too back on the 8th of June when it was published and took good note of the fact that it was an old poll, but did find one interesting number: that 90% expressed an intent to vote.

Canada is another country that has an election season about a month long, and no pollster worth their salt would ever reference a month-old poll to ascertain the wishes of the voting public. Note 2006 for example where the Liberals started out fairly strong, but the Conservatives caught up with them and won at the end. There's simply too much that goes on during a campaign to make one-month-old polls any use.

That said, I do appreciate their conducting a poll from outside Iran, and found it useful for the period of time in which it was conducted...just not weeks later.

Alex said...

this poll was taken before obama's speech in cairo. perhaps it persuaded some portion of the voters to support mousavi.

polls_apart said...

Perhaps Hezbollah's electoral defeat in Lebanon alerted the Religious Conservative clique that runs Iran to the possibility that they, too, might lose an election. It may have stiffened their determination to avoid the same fate.

@ConcreteCement (aka PeteKent):
I'm noticing a new-born solicitude for the "starving" in your most recent posts here. You should be aware that the extension of Unemployment Benefits (and Food Stamps, I believe) in the Stimulus Package will greatly alleviate this problem among those who have lost jobs. I would note the irony in the resistance of a number of Republican governors to precisely this portion of the Stimulus Package.
Remind me to bring a push broom and a shovel should I ever feel impelled to follow you on Twitter.

Dragon said...

I'm not a political analyst (or anything similar, mind you), mind you, but I've said before (and likely will say again) that this sort of election is as reliable a a million Nigerian dollars and as worthwhile as a million Zimbabwe dollars.

Gray said...

A fair view of the numbers, but I'm still a bit underwhelmed by this article. I thought that Nate would add some math and show the probabilities for the official outcome, based on the numbers of the poll. How likely is it that Ahmadinejad would have captured so much of the undecideds that he would have got to 63%? Or how likely is it that Moussavi would have reached more than 50% (not to speak of more than 60%, as a rumour says)?

Again, a good, fair review, but it falls short of the sound statistical based facts that Nate is famous for. Yeah, I know, maybe that's a case of hard bigotry of high expectations, but still...

PeteKent said...

Matador at 306 illustrates precisely why we don't want socialized medicine in this country. He is clearly off his meds because his government will not give him anymore!

You forget how Franco and Mussolini ran their countries. Perhaps your relatives died in their cauldrons of despair. You are perhaps too young to recognize the siren song of the oppressor -- so seductive at first and so ruinous at the end.

Obama is a monster.

Now please crawl back into your European slum and weep your bitter tears over lost promise and potential. Your people are cynical and bored. Robbed of ambition by years of Obama-style governance.

We will not have it here. We are America! We threw out foreign oppression 200 plus years ago and will do so once more!

No Kenyan for a King!

petekent01 (on twitter)

dcouzin said...

Nate Silver had done an unexpectedly poor job of analyzing the TFT numbers.
Let's call the None+Refused+Don't Know responses Unknown. They total 50.05%. The vote turnout was 85%. So, let's subtract the 15% from the Unknown, and rescale. Now we have:
39.7% Ahmadinejad
16.0% Mousavi
2.0% Karroubi
1.1% Rezai
41.2% Unknown
If we now in our glorious ignorance distribute the Unknown equally between Ahmadinejad and Mousavi we get:
60.3% Ahmadinejad
36.6% Mousavi
3.1% Others
This is close to the publicized vote.

Kathleeniz said...

Here is some interesting political background information from an informed source on what took place between the time of the Ballen/Doherty poll and the Iranian election:

http://tehranbureau.com/2009/06/17/poll-indicating-legitimacy-of-ahmadinejads-victory-called-into-question/

"The only major doubt in the western media over significant fraud in Iran’s presidential election came with the publication of poll conducted by Terror Free Tomorrow, a non-profit group. The poll’s findings – which had put Mahmoud Ahmadinejad comfortably ahead of Mir-Hossein Mousavi – were interpreted by some western commentators as an indication that Ahmadinejad’s “victory” may have been legitimate. In fact the poll, while it had interesting findings on public opinion, cannot be taken as a prediction of the election result..."

Tori said...

I have to concur that I enjoy Terror Free Tomorrow's work, but everyone I know who has ever lived in Iran laughed at the very idea of taking the results of a poll seriously. As many of the Iranians I have met say "One Iranian, three opinions."

Haghighat-yaab said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Haghighat-yaab said...

@ dcouzin: Your analysis has mistakes too. Here is how I would analyze the data: First we have to take care of the 15% who didn't vote (as you know there was a 85% turnout). 7.6% have explicitly said they wouldn't vote. That leaves us with 7.4%. If we distribute this 7.4% between the other choices based on their proportion of the whole votes and re-normalize the results we will have:

Ahmadinejad: 36.58%
Mousavi: 14.72%
Karroubi: 1.84%
Rezaee: 0.97%
Refused: 16.34%
Don't know: 29.65%
Unknown (the sum of "refused" and "don't know"): 46%

Now, as you see, we don't know who the 46% would vote for. For Ahmadinejad to win by 63.62%, he has to get another 27%, i.e. about 58% of the unknown vote, which is possible but weird given that 1-opposition supporters have more reason to withhold their opinion that the hard-liners, 2-Those who wanted to vote for someone other than the incumbent are much more likely not to be sure who they wanted to vote for than those who had Ahmadinejad as one of their possible choices.