While most of the world's attention has been focused on Iran, health care reform has had a rough couple of weeks. First, in a move that was not entirely unexpected, the AMA came out against a public option in the Democrats' health care plan. Secondly, a draft version of the bill from the Senate's Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee -- a very incomplete draft, which didn't include key provisions like the public option -- was scored poorly by the CBO, as was a preliminary version advanced by the Finance Committee on Tuesday. Thirdly, some centrist Democrats have begun to rally around a watered-down bill created by North Dakota's Kent Conrad -- a bill which Conrad said he created because more sweeping versions lacked the votes to pass. And fourthly, the Finance Committee and the HELP Committee increasingly seem to be running along separate, and possibly competing, tracks, as the Finance Committee delayed the markup of its own bill until after the July 4th holiday.
So far, there is no sign of erosion in the public's support for health care reform. And the Administration appears poised to begin doing some more explicit advocacy for the legislation, beginning with a one-hour national forum on June 24th. But it had better be prepared for that town hall meeting to be a start of a trend, because history suggests that leaving a health care bill unattended before Congress is just about the worst place for it to be.
A comparison to the Clintons' failed efforts to pass health care reform in 1993 and 1994 may be instructive. It is somewhat commonly believed that the problem the Clintons had is that they were too hands-on and oversold the bill. Looking back at the polling, however, suggests something else.
The chart below presents Bill Clinton's Gallup approval rating throughout 1993 and 1994, in conjunction with the major events of the health care debate. In the absence of specific polling on health care itself, this is perhaps the best barometer of the bill's political fortunes.
The approval polling suggests that Clinton was benefiting when he was doing the most direct salesmanship of the bill. A joint address to Congress on September 22, 1993 was met with a sudden jump in Clinton's approval rating. Although that bounce was short-lived, his approval rating then continued to improve throughout the balance of 1993 as a health care bill was presented to Congress in November. It was only when the bill was left to linger before Congress in the spring of 1994 that both its fortunes and those of Clinton began to suffer. Clinton's approval rating hit a nadir at 39 percent on August 16, 1994, the lowest it would be for the rest of his Presidency, which is right about when George Mitchell was making it clear that no bill had the votes to pass the Senate.
This is, obviously, a simplified re-telling of a complex time in American politics. But the Congress is never a popular institution, and with Ted Kennedy ailing and Hillary Clinton heading the State Department, the Democrats are notably lacking the sorts of charismatic leaders who know how to pitch legislation to the public. Polling suggests that 58 percent of the public trusts Obama to sell health care, but just 42 percent trust the Congressional Democrats -- a figure that puts them down in the gutter with the pharmaceutical companies, although ahead at least of the Congressional Republicans.
A more recent and perhaps equally relevant precedent is that established during the selling of Obama's most significant achievement to date, that of the economic stimulus package. That bill, initially rather popular, came dangerously close to failing when the White House went dark as it tried to navigate the Tom Daschle mini-crisis and let Congress take the lead; only some last-minute salesmanship efforts by Obama may have resuscitated it. And the stimulus package was simple as compared with health care -- it was really just a matter of agreeing on two numbers, the overall amount of the bill and the proportion devoted to tax cuts.
In contrast, the health care debate is multidimensional, requiring the resolution of a series of disputes ranging from the presence or absence of a public plan, to the best way to pay for it, to the wisdom of an employer mandate. There are an effectively infinite number of possible health care bills based on the way these parameters are resolved, and indeed there seem to be dozens of permutations on health care reform working their way around the Hill: a non-exhaustive list would include the HELP Committee's partially-unformed version, the Finance Committee's largely unformed version, Conrad's version, Max Baucus's version (which might or might not be different from the Finanice Committee version), the Dole-Daschle compromise, the Schumer Plan, the Rockefeller Plan, the House Democratic version (of which there may be several), Wyden-Bennett, AmeriCare, Mike Enzi's quasi-serious Republican alternative, and Olympia Snowe's "trigger". Notably absent seems to be any version from the White House itself, even though Obama campaigned on and won with a health care framework that offered relatively specific proscriptions to many of these questions.
Perhaps the Administration takes a different lesson from Bill Clinton's failure: that it was not so much the public salesmanship of the bill that was the problem, but rather, the the Clintons' inflexibility in the face of the political realities faced by the Congress. But the Doomsday Scenario for the White House is probably not that health care fails a straight up-or-down vote, but rather, that no individual version of the bill has enough votes to pass as legislators convince themselves they can hold out for an alternative more to their liking, while all the while the industry is having time bought for it to lobby against the bill, or to watch any of several political contingencies unfold (another crash in the stock market; the incapacitation of Senator Kennedy, which would deprive Democrats of a vote until a special election were held in Massachusetts) that could weaken the Democrats' position.
This has been an extremely cautious White House to date; they have scrupulously avoided doing anything that might ruffle Congressional or public feathers and they are probably afraid of gambling on a specific plan and losing. But as Neville Chamberlain learned long ago, and Spock learned in the latest version of Star Trek, caution does not always equate with safety. It is time for the White House to take hold of this debate and not let go.
6.18.2009
Congress: A Good Place for Health Care To Die
by Nate Silver @ 11:34 AM...see also clinton, health care, house democrats, obama, senate democrats, white house
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There will be some kind of healthcare bill. This will give both parties some cover, perhaps even Obama as well.
But unless the bill has universal coverage, and a method of reducing costs in the future, it's going to be a failure -- Obama's above all.
"Bill declared dead" could probably be worded better.
If the Dems don't collectively grow a pair on health care, they're not getting my vote again. It's easily my #1 issue and the likelihood of it getting resolved in our lifetimes is not very good. Now is the best opportunity we'll ever have.
Juris is right.
Yes there is support for healthcare reform. Its the type of reform thats the question.
Remembmer the vast majority of voters are insured. There is no consensus among anyone that any of these "plans" will be a net positive (Premium cost reduction - increased tax burden) for any sizeable group of the population. There is simply too much confusion/unknowns out there at this point to make a convincing case for moving forward.
With the bitter taset of unclear non-specific bailouts still fresh in people minds. Conress rightly is wary about moving forward without specific concrete details and data.
To this point mainly the Billions of costs and only 16 million covered over 10 years the data is not very convincing.
This is a case where frequent polling of the public's interest may be useful to keep the ball rolling.
It would also be helpful if someone tried to poll many physicians. Less than 20% of US doctors are members of AMA, so they don't speak for the profession as a whole.
Well, when 76% in yesterday's poll support choice for a public option, Dems fucking well better get a clue. I don't give a shit what that weasel Tom Daschle has to say, the guy couldn't even hold onto a job that was gift wrapped for him as early as summer 2008.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/17/obama-boost-new-poll-show_n_217175.html
The public option is a compromise anyway on single payer anyway. Any Dem who thinks it's controversial, is either an idiot or politically and morally corrupt.
I understand Congress' wariness and this is an incredibly complex area of legislation. But guess who is writing the bill?
Above all they have to decide whether they are committed to core principles -- e.g., universal coverage, holding down costs (and making the system more efficient), and ending the "preexisting conditions" game for private insurers.
They have to acknowledge that our "system" has about 50% wastage or inefficiency in it in terms of costs relative to health and health care for the people (and stop the b.s. about our having the best health care system in the world).
If they don't concede any of these, and only complain about "cost" (as opposed to return on expenditure) or "socialized medicine" (rather than focusing on health care as a human right), then they're just being cynical and don't deserve our support in future.
Obama is so scared to take a stand. Barf.
Nate mistakes a public acknowledgment that healthcare costs are high and an openness for reform as an endorsement for ObamaCare/Socialized medicine.
Too bad he is wrong. Nobody wants their government to determine the kind of care and procedures their mom or dad will get. Nobody wants rationed healthcare and nobody wants to be told the government says you are not worthy of this medical procedure X because your mom is too old.
People are also not stupid, Obama's plan does not reduce costs, it will increase costs and taxes. You just can't say it will reduce costs. I can say I am going to walk to Mars, doesn't mean it will happen.
President Obama's Ratings Remain High
Despite the theme that Obama's honeymoon may be over, Political Wire has learned that a new Pew Research poll will be out shortly that shows President Obama's approval ratings remain high despite some policy concerns.
In addition, as global threats rise, Obama gets generally good marks on foreign policy.
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/06/18/obamas_ratings_remain_high.html
Totally justified that he'd lose a few points here and there since last month, even though he hasn't held a prime time presser recently, which always gives him a bump. But Obama's advisers are flat-footed, somewhat out of touch and seem determined to piss the base off. GOPOsaurs are irrelevant at this point, it's progressives and independents they should be working for, not wingnuts. This particularly true when it comes to healthcare and the public option. The majority support it, McConnell and Boner just keep spouting Frank Luntz talking points.
The way senste Dems have been carrying on recently, I'm half expecting them to block Sen. Al Franken from being seated.
BTW, is MN gonna settle that today, or what?
Anyone who warns of "government bureaucrats" making decisions about what kind of health care you will get is missing several screws.
First, government does this a lot now, e.g., in the military, in Medicare, in Medicaid.
Second, insurance companies make these decisions every day -- get right in between doctor and patient -- and deny coverage for services they deem too costly or on the pretext of "preexisting conditions" (for which they as private parties have no responsibility).
Third, the canard that nobody should meddle with the "relationship between doctor and patient" is being used to overlook the reality that doctors have a responsibility to use best practices, and in reality they do have to consider the cost/benefit ratio to any procedure.
Fourth, more than 50 million Americans have nobody they can call "their" doctor. Talk about anonymity and desperation. Have you ever had to wait in an emergency room because you had no insurance and no "doctor" to call?
New Pew Poll: 75% support Changing Health Care, Obama at 61% job approval (64% and 63% in previous Pew polls).
On Health care, public opinion about the issue has changed since Clinton.
There continues to be widespread support for changing the health care system so that all Americans have insurance that covers all medically necessary care: 75% favor this currently, while 21% are opposed. However, the percentage favoring this proposal is down from 83% in April 1993. Similarly, while a large majority (61%) believes it is very important to limit annual increases in health care costs, fewer say that now than did so 16 years ago (69%).,
"This has been an extremely cautious White House to date; they have scrupulously avoided doing anything that might ruffle Congressional or public feathers and they are probably afraid of gambling on a specific plan and losing. But as Neville Chamberlain learned long ago, and Spock learned in the latest version of Star Trek, caution does not always equate with safety. It is time for the White House to take hold of this debate and not let go."
Well said, Nate. Obama has a genius for soaring rhetoric and inspiring great affection in the non-right-wing whacko world that comprises 75% of the electorate. However, he is a (probably too) cautious politician an incrementalist. Perhaps he is right, since he recognizes that much of the power elite needs to be coaxed slowly and assiduously to any kind of reform. By nature and belief, he is a true liberal, but he is also steeped in the realpolitik of Chicago and Washington, and finds outrage on the left useful as a buffer against charges that he is too far left.
However, at some point he needs to shit or get off the pot, so I am hopeful he will continue to be out there advocating (Bill Maher's shallow idiocy notwithstanding, Obama is BY FAR, the best weapon to get something done), and use the fact that his 65% approval far outstrips congressional dems and the continued subterranean numbers of the reviled RRRRR (Racist Rich Reactionary Rotund Republicans)
Oh, Beano, good point here:
"Too bad he is wrong. Nobody wants their government to determine the kind of care and procedures their mom or dad will get. Nobody wants rationed healthcare and nobody wants to be told the government says you are not worthy of this medical procedure X because your mom is too old."
We real Americans MUCH prefer our HMOs determining the kind of care and procedures their mom or dad will get, rationing healthcare and telling you that you are not worthy of this medical procedure X because your mom is too old."
You, sir, are an uninformed idiot, and your place in hell will be to stay on hold with a Health Net clerk for all eternity as s/he tells you you are not eligible for the procedure you need to make it through the next day.
You do know (actually you probably don't) that Americans have the lowest level of satisfaction with their health care of any advanced nation? Don't let the facts deter you, Beanbrain. After all, the 75 million un or underinsured Americans are clearly there due to their own moral failings...
Quit cherry picking you stupid leftwing hacks
"That said, the president still has his work cut out for him. In the same NBC/WSJ poll, only 33 percent of respondents said they thought the president's health care plan, to the extent they knew of it, was a "good idea;" 32 percent said it was a bad idea."
Idiots
This will be the come-to-Jesus moment for the Democratic Party. This fall, Democrats will have a fillibuster-proof majority in the Senate, a Democratic president, and a Democratic House.
They either pass comprehensive health care reform, or the Democratic moment in the sun will be prove to have been nothing but a break in the clouds.
@Grinder: I agree with you. If they don't get this done, it will be a shame on the whole lot of them.
Even the republicans are acknowledging that universal health care is the end of the GOP in its current form. If Obama doesn't spend political capital on this one, what is he going to spend it on?
Here's an argument to sell the public option: Universal health care without a public option will not be universal health care at all because it puts all power into the hands of insurance companies. Universal health care that is exclusively public will create a new bureaucratic monster, so the best option is to run public and private health care in competition with each other. Public health care will have to be cost efficient, and private health care will have to be fair (or it has to be content with being a service only available to richest people).
"That said, the president still has his work cut out for him. In the same NBC/WSJ poll, only 33 percent of respondents said they thought the president's health care plan, to the extent they knew of it, was a "good idea;" 32 percent said it was a bad idea."
The actual entire quote is:
Without being told anything specific about the Obama plan in the survey, about a third of people said it's a good idea, about a third said it's a bad idea and the rest had no opinion. When given several details of his approach, 55% said they favored it, versus 35% who were opposed.
In a related topic: I heard on npr the other day that one of the key killers in a pharmaceutical bill was a republican in congress that then moved on to lobby for the pharma corporations. Of course he gained a huge salary.
The bill in question was the one where it included a provision that said that the pharma companies could charge whatever they want for drugs (as opposed to other countries, which restrict the costs in various ways).
That got me thinking, could 538 do a analysis on congressional members leaving and where they work after they leave, relative to their democratic or republican status? I would be especially interested in the ones that go on to lobby... or even those who lobby vs those who go on to do something else.
I wonder what those deatils were. Was cost in there at all. What about Will you see any tangible benefits. Thats the problem with these polls they are written so poorly. I see there is another one up top which is equally vague.
I want someone to explain why we can't have a "public option" analogous to this:
https://www.maif.net/emaif/
I'm sure every state has something like it. And believe me, MAIF has not put private car insurance out of business in Maryland.
How can this be a controversial idea?
Juris said
'Anyone who warns of "government bureaucrats" making decisions about what kind of health care you will get is missing several screws.'
------------------------------
I couldn't agree with this analysis more. Its a line I hear GOP trying to push, but it is so bogus. First off, in the US the insurance companies get in your way anyways. In fact oftentimes they either literally get in your way, or insist that you go into bankruptcy to pay for treatment. If it is the European model of 'socialized medicine' that is the worry for those on the right, then well I can tell you that in the UK, a bureaucrat does not tell you what treatment you can and cannot have. If anything, in socialised medicine, the bureaucrats get out of the way of the patient/doctor relationship.
I would agree with everyone who basically says that the Democratic Party needs to grow a pair on this issue. Now is the moment to be radical. Now is the moment to sort this issue. Some form of universal coverage must be included in the bill. Sure some people may lose elections over it, but at least they will have gone down doing something. And at least history will treat them kindly. This is THE moment for this issue. Congressional Democrats need to be helping there President on this one, no matter what else they do in the rest of there congressional careers.
Unless Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd are both well enough to vote, the Democrats will NOT have 60 votes in the Senate soon. But if anything is important enough to resort to reconciliation on, if necessary, it's a matter of life and death. And health care coverage is a matter of life and death.
@Juris and grinder
You have forgotten something very important!
The healthcare bill is being brought up under the reconciliation process which is filiibuster-proof.Only 51 votes needed!
(This is probably the only time in his tenure as Majority Leader that Harry the Eunuch had enough guts to fight for the right course of action.Although I suppose Rahm was twisting both his arms.)
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I don't care what the final healthcare bill looks like as long as it contains an unalloyed strong public option.After all,this is the only way we are going to enter The Promised Land (AKA a universal single payer system).Or rather,you are going to enter.
I'm already there! Yes,I'm on Medicare,the single payer system similar to the systems happily enjoyed by almost all all of the developed world.
@ Michael
See my comment above.
Single-payer advocates have to get real, too. The government programs, i.e., Medicare and Medicaid, routinely shift costs to the private sector.
Also, there is the elephant in the living room that NO ONE will talk about: The enormous amount of money spent on two categories of health care. One is end-of-life medicine, where gigantic bills get run up to prolong people's lives by six months or a year. The other is premature and drug-addicted infants.
That's where the big money gets spent.
@Opus 132: Are you sure they are going for the "reconciliation" procedure? I don't think they are there yet, if only because this isn't going to be voted on for some months.
My guess is that Congress will pass a requirement that everyone must buy health insurance and impose fines for those who do not. That's what health care reform will look like.
In the short run, some people will be scared into buying health insurance. About two-thirds of the uninsured will ignore the law and not buy health insurance. In the long run, the extra demand caused by individual mandates will cause insurance premiums to soar, and in the end, this health care bill will only reduce the uninsured by a small amount.
History shows that the biggest opportunity for a president to make legislative change is the first two-hundred days of the first term of his presidency. Obama's first two-hundred days are almost over, and I suspect that most of the legislative change Obama will make will occur before the summer recess.
"Remembmer the vast majority of voters are insured."
Actually, the majority (50-60%) are already on single payer health care, when you look at the numbers in Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, and other governmental programs. Only about 1/3 of the population is covered by the private insurance vultures. The rest are doing without.
When will the Dems (as stated above) grow a pair and shove this important legislation through. Obama seems content to just make sure he keeps a happy face on and not upset anyone. He can't keep smiling his way through an agenda. He needs to bring the fight to Congress. It's unfortunate, but that's just how American politics works right now.
I cannot help but feel that this will be just as big of a boondoggle as it was in '93. I hope that's not the case because I'm one of those 47 million uninsureds out there.
The health care industry doesn't want to change and most of congress is afraid to tick this powerful constituency off.
I actually dig Howard Dean's take on this. He has a new book out on the very topic of fixing health care. In fact, I wish they would let Dean and former Gov. Kitzhaber (D-OR), who is also an MD, let loose on the problem. I think we'd see some real policy come from that pairing.
As to your Kennedy reference: no one has really said this, but I suspect that is the reason Coleman is being encouraged to drag the MN race out. They're waiting for Kennedy (or Byrd) to die.
I think things will need to get much worse before enough Dems grow a pair. Right now, I don't believe there is the political will for buy-in. Health care will lay hemorrhaging on the floor of the halls of congress no matter what Obama does. I hope it doesn't render him impotent like it did Clinton.
Oh, and shout out for the Star Trek reference. Finally the odd numbered movie curse has been broken. Yet another reason I knew I liked Nate. Crunch numbers and prosper.
Juris-
It's my impression that the reconciliation process can be used but,as I had forgotten (sorry!),it doesn't come into effect until October 15:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/25/us/politics/25budget.html?scp=3&sq=reconciliation%20health%20care%20bill&st=cse
We may have to wait four months for a good bill.
Also,Marc Ambinder of Atlantic Magazine reports this today:"Meanwhile, sensing an opportunity, a group of centrist House Democrats and Republicans will hold a joint press conference today to formally oppose using budget reconciliation rules to pass the financing portion of reform."
Placeholder said,
"Also, there is the elephant in the living room that NO ONE will talk about: The enormous amount of money spent on two categories of health care. One is end-of-life medicine, where gigantic bills get run up to prolong people's lives by six months or a year. The other is premature and drug-addicted infants."
Nitpick: as you are no doubt aware, the "crack baby" scare turned out to be hugely exaggerated. I doubt very much money is actually spent on drug-addicted infants, although if you have any data on the matter, I'd love to see it.
Splashy, your numbers are wrong. According to the US Census Bureau (see here, p. 28), 60% of Americans have employer-based health insurance, and another 8% don't but have an individually purchased private plan. Only 27% of Americans have a government-provided plan.
Placeholder, what you say about end of life medicine and premature babies doesn't square with health costs in other countries. The US has a very young population by first world standards. If end of life care were significant, then the highest health costs would appear in Japan; instead, Japan has very low health costs. The US does have an unusually high rate of babies born prematurely, due to its high teen pregnancy rate, but Canada and Britain are not doing much better, and still have half the per capita health costs of the US.
Write this down
I'm quoting look out :-p
http://www.ahrq.gov/research/ria19/expendria.htm
Five percent of the population accounts for almost half (49 percent) of total health care expenses.
The 15 most expensive health conditions account for 44 percent of total health care expenses.
Patients with multiple chronic conditions cost up to seven times as much as patients with only one chronic condition.
Its like anything else in this country. Most of the country just wants to be left alone and a very small minority consumes the lions share of tax dollars. A very small share also contributes the majority of tax dollars.
Only in America
I still say we should do what the auto insurance companies do reward good behavior and punish bad behavior through premium prices.
Another simple solution
Limit the usage of ICU to say one week max
http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/165/6/750
"Limit the usage of ICU to say one week max."
You're one sick person.
Ugh!
A very small share also contributes the majority of tax dollars.
Why is it so difficult to see that since a tiny percentage controls the vast majority of the wealth then a small percentage will contribute the majority of tax revenue?
It is not unfair in the slightest.
"Limit the usage of ICU to say one week max."
You're one sick person.
Ugh!
I agree, that was a disgusting comment by a disgusting person.
It is also ironic, since he is using the "government will control your health care" fear tactic, which his proposal is exactly that.
Funny how the right doesn't care if greedy corporations ration health care.
Who would you trust, someone with a motive to deny you that needed operation, or someone with no vested interest?
Nova_middle_man, health costs follow the 80/20 rule: 20% of the people account for 80% of the costs. This comes from catastrophic problems, like heart attacks or strokes. It's no different from how in 2001 a tiny minority of Americans, those living in or near New York, got almost all post-terrorism reconstruction money, or how in 2005 a tiny minority living in Louisiana got almost all post-hurricane reconstruction money.
you want to know why most people are moderates/libertarians. Exaclty that reason. Most people don't want or need government and don't appreciate the government wasting their tax dollars.
That will win you 80% of the population. Now I am not a heartless bastard. The 20% shouldn't be left to fend for themselves. However reall effort should be made to reduce the behavior and the popular democratic tactic of throwing more and more money at the 20% is extremely frustrating for the 80%
This plan is so deeply flawed that the numbers are shocking.
* It leaves 30 million uninsured. 39 million mostly young and healthy people get it (note: they don't really care that they are uninsured, most can afford to buy a cheap private plan but choose not to). However, CBO estimates 23 million WORKING people will lose coverage as a result of this plan. How will they vote next go around?
* The plan will cost around $180B a year when fully implemented 6 YEARS from now! Most people will see no change by 2010 or 2012. They will hear $1.6 T price tags and see no tangible change.
*$180B to cover a net 17 million people per year is ~$11,000 per person. A family of 4 can get private coverage that covers more stuff for $13,000. This is 350% more expensive than IT IS NOW!
* We could just buy private plans for ALL UNINSURED for about the same cost.
Do the math!
This is nothing close to universal coverage and it will crater an already exploding deficit. It gives so many subsidies to people who already have coverage that it will just encourage more overuse of services because people never feel the true price, the gov't does!
How does any of that cut costs? Costs will go up and we still leave 30 million MORE vulnerable people uninsured.
This is MADNESS!
I think the solution is very simple from my point of view. Either Obama rams thru SIGNIFICANT health care reform that covers almost everybody at a lower cost, or I donate to the GOP next time around. Time for the Dems to flex their muscles instead of whimping out one more time.
'm a loyal Democrat. And I have had enough.
I didn't work all those years, when we were in the wilderness, for Obama and Pelosi and Reid to piss it all away now out of fear that they won't be liked by people who will never like them. Screw your favorability numbers. Would you rather be liked or accomplished?
Every single issue that comes along Obama follows the same path: Formulate a lofty goal. Check around to find someone who opposes it, out of ignorance or just reflex. Meet them half way, thereby achieving only half the goal. Repeat until you have a plan that is 1/4th, 1/8th, 1/16th, 1/32nd of what we need.
The Democratic Party, no... I. I have campaigned on universal healthcare for years. Universal, national, single payer, full-bore, socialized medicine, Canadian-style healthcare. So Canadian it makes you want to roll the rim to win while watching Don Cherry from your Sheridan. We have finally clawed and fought and wheedled and dealed to get our party into a position of real power in Washington. We can do it. We must do it.
Let the GOP nutjobs who think national healthcare will put tracking chips in their skull or some nonsense scream about guv'mint. Let the careerist, bend with the wind Democrats complain. Let the corporatist bottoms, the starve the beast conservatives and the insurance lobbyist-pursuing whores bellow on Fox.
Because, in the end, as always, the truth just stands there and smiles modestly.
We have the votes to do it. We have the support of the American people. And it's the right thing to do.
No, we don't have 60 votes. We have 50%+1. That's all we need. Let the GOP filibuster. Let John Boehner stand on the floor of the Senate reading Gulliver's Travels for 10 hours or 100 hours or a 1000 hours or a million or whatever it takes. Let them stand there until November 2010 and explain why they'll shut down the government so the people of Alabama and Nebraska and South Carolina and Maine can keep dying when the insurance company refuses to pay for the treatment they need after years of accepting premiums. Because no amount of ad money, no amount of emails, no amount of talking head chatter can obscure the simple fact.
We have the votes. We have the support of the American people. And it's the right thing to do.
And anyone... anyone, Mr. President, Sen. Conrad, Sen. Boxer, Sen. Graham... who stands in opposition either through bellicose defiance or in the quiet, sly policy assassination called compromise, will be remembered for it. It can pass now, and you can be for it or against it. Or it can be passed years from now, and you can explain to your children why you delayed it, the way other politicians have had to explain their votes against social security or integration or the Union.
We have the votes. We have the support of the American people. And it's the right thing to do.
And if Obama fritters away this opportunity. Then, I'm done. Done. No more campaigning, no more voting. Done. Have fun getting elected in 2012 without this loyal Democrat.
And I don't think I'm alone.
@ Nosimplehiway
Great post! I agree 100%;
If only Reid,for once,would let the Republicans filibuster 24/7,and actually break a filibuster,we'd see the last of that vile device.
And if,for some reason,that plan fails,we can wait until October 15 when the healthcare bill will be voted on under the reconciliation process which requires a filibuster-proof total of 51 votes.(See my post above from 5:18 PM yesterday.)
We have the support of the American people
No you don't if you did there wouldn't be som much hemming and hawing. Politicians aren't stupid and are movtiaved by being reelected.
This is all pointless anyway. There isn't even an actual plan yet.
@Novamiddleman
Thing is, once you're caught in a lie, my willingnes to discourse with you is over.
I used to read your posts with respect and interest. Disagreement on occasion, but interest. Now that Wayward Son has caught you intentionally misquoting a poll, misrepresenting data and obfuscating the truth... well, I'll just skip over your posts. I just don't have the time to fact check everything you post, and the previous administration has sapped all my patience for truthiness.
There are legitimate arguments to be made on both sides of this issue, legitimate polls which can be cited, legitimate positions to be taken, CBO data to be mined, but you're not actually interested in that sort of discussion, are you?
You're only interested in screaming louder than anyone else. You're that three year old child we've all seen at the shopping mall, on the ground, flailing about, screaming that he wants ice cream right now.
Lying on a forum to shore up your ego? I wanna be angry, but what I'm actually feeling is... pity.
The Hill today, quoting a senior Dem aid in the House:
The two groups, which combined have 131 members — more than half the House Democratic Caucus — have been holding meetings to see where they can agree on a healthcare plan…There is concern among centrists in the caucus that the draft bill, to be released Friday, will reflect some of the more liberal ideas in the caucus, although leadership has already rejected the idea of a single-payer system. It is being put together by the House Education and Labor, Energy and Commerce and Ways and Means committees.
"You have a bunch of crazy liberal chairs and their crazy liberal staffers, and they want to lay down a marker," said a senior Democratic aide.
And this is supposed to be the "easy" chamber.
@Nosimplehiway
I'm sorry you feel that way. I will submit it is kind of pointless on this issue. You have laid out your positions and what you want done.
I simply disagree and I submit once again the American public do as well otherwise the politicians would let your ideas fly through.
As for being caught in a lie I was making a point to counteract the previous post which conveniently left out more details.
The problem is that poll is totally subjective. That poll doesn't say what the details of Obamas plan are. It doesn't say if people were told how much it would cost or what level of service would result.
Its typical of most polls/issues for the American public. Most people want to give more people health care. Most people don't want to pay for it and don't want levels of service to decrease or premiums to go up. The devils in the details and they are sketcy at best.
In closing I think all of this is way too premature. We need some actual detailed plans before we can discuss further.
Have a good day
@Jeff
Thanks for that. Once again proving my point
Although I will say thats negotiation 101
You set your goalpost as far left as possible. Then when you eventually compromise you are more to the left then if you had the more moderate plan to begin with.
They need to learn from the mistakes made in Massachusetts,Canada and Britian before passing healthare reform. There are flaws in the public plan part of it.The Massachusetts plan is costing more than expected and causing huge problems. They need to slow down and make sure they get it right. If you make mistakes on healthcare it will turn into a huge disaster.
I think we need to get out on the streets and be like:
GIVE US UHC OR GIVE US DEATH!
In Iran, the Basij would then come out and shoot us all for the lulz. haha
People, chill!
We all know Obama lets Congress fail before jumping in the mix--- Nate even alludes to this. Second, he doesn't rush when he talks, and he doesn't rush when he works. Third, he knows as well as anybody that change in America does not happen overnight. Never has, never will. It's not a defect, it's how America works. As the kids would say, that's how we roll.
Fourth, and this is important, Obama never campaigned for single-payer during his presidency.
Should we really hold him responsible for not bringing it?
And finally, I would much rather have the government tell my mother she's too old for overpriced medicine that only has a slim chance of adding a few agonizing months to her life than have an insurance company tell me I can't have life- or limb-saving surgery because the CEO wants to install satellite TV on his yacht.
And so what if the big bad government insurance denies people useless care at the end of the lives that that insurance will have already added years to? It's asking people to sacrifice the end sliver of their lives to make our country better. The government routinely asks people to make much bigger sacrifices than that. Soldiers, for instance, risk themselves in the prime of their youth, but that doesn't mean that our armed forces are evil or that they will destroy America.
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