5.19.2009

Why Spending Cuts Aren't the Answer

The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projects that President Obama’s recently proposed budget will cause the national debt to double over the next ten years. Deficits aren’t an immediate problem, since the economy is in the midst of the deepest downturn since the Great Depression. In fact, most economists argue that we should be running even bigger deficits in the short run. But most economists also agree that we need to bring deficits under control in the long run.

There are only two ways to do that—by cutting government spending and by raising taxes. Cutting wasteful spending would obviously be a good thing. Every president promises to do this. Yet federal spending has continued to grow in every administration, and there are good reasons for believing that spending cuts won’t be the answer this time, either.

Government programs have constituents. On the rare occasions when programs get cut, they are typically not the ones that deliver poor value, but rather those whose constituents have the least power to object. For example, the Bush administration, self-proclaimed enemies of government waste, cut the Energy Department’s program for rounding up poorly guarded nuclear materials in the former Soviet Union, the National Science Foundation’s budget for basic research, rehabilitation programs for injured veterans, and nutritional assistance programs for poor mothers of small children. Each of these programs was delivering good value for the money.

Although it is extremely hard to cut existing programs, it is easier to avoid launching new ones. But much of the new spending proposed by the president is for public investments with high rates of return. Failure to make these investments will actually make us poorer. For instance, if the government borrowed a trillion dollars at 4 percent and invested the money in projects with an annual return of 7 percent, we’d actually be richer each year by $30 billion than if we hadn’t made those investments. And because investment in the public sphere has been neglected for decades, there are thousands of shovel-ready projects with extremely high rates of return.

A specific example: Because a handful of low-clearance bottlenecks currently make it impossible to ship double-decker cargo containers along the northeast rail corridor, these containers must be carried by trucks. The result is bumper-to-bumper truck traffic along I-95, which has diverted a growing volume of truck traffic 200 miles west onto I-81. According to one study, the cost of eliminating the rail bottlenecks would be $6 billion, and the benefits would be more than $12 billion, not even counting the value of reduced greenhouse gas emissions. Failure to make investments like that would not be a smart move.

Of course, there is other wasteful spending that should be cut. But much of that spending occurs because legislators feel pressure to enact programs that benefit campaign contributors. If we really want to attack that kind of waste, we’ll first have to make substantial progress with campaign finance reform. In the meantime, our best bet for curbing deficits is to raise additional revenue.

But proposing new taxes has always been the third rail of American politics. The key to solving that problem lies in shifting the focus of what we tax. Our current system taxes many beneficial activities, such as saving and new job creation. We could raise all the revenue we need by shifting to a system that taxed only harmful activities. I mentioned taxes on congestion in yesterday’s post. I’ll discuss additional examples in future posts.

75 comments

Gyrate said...

The problem with selling this kind of borrowing/spending is that the spending now is very real and specific, whereas the benefits are off in the distant future, potential and very generalized. The government may spend the $6 billion but who gets the $12 billion benefit? Is it the taxpayer? Unlikely.

And is it just me, or are other people getting odd formatting glitches?

Richard said...

I agree that revenues need to be increased; but I also believe that as the economy picks back up they will increase as a result of increased income. There are also significant savings to be realized by winding down the Iraq war and slashing military funding.

On the other hand, it will definitely be necessary to increase taxes to pay for universal health care, and we need to continue spending on infrastructure. I think we will need to increase income taxes, perhaps combining these increases with a higher personal deduction to prevent an undue burden on the poor. I certainly am willing to do my part to ensure that everyone has health care.

At the same time, we are going to have to make Social Security and Medicare solvent. I think the fairest way to do that would be to eliminate the cap on social security and medicare wages.

Chris said...

Good article, only halfway in did it occur to me that maybe this wasn't Nate!

Fascinating stuff, I can't wait to see more articles about it in the future. I might take to printing them out and showing them to family. America would be a lot better if people read stuff like this

@Gyrate: It could be used in any number of ways that would benefit the taxpayer. I could see programs like this substantially contributing to a healthcare plan. Even if the taxpayer doesn't "see" a dime of it, it's money going to stagger the debt, and the growing debt seems to be what's enraging the blowhards on Fixed News and other right-winger outlets.

ytownMetz said...

>>Deficits aren’t an immediate problem<<

What the hell are you talking about. Yes they are. I'll give credit where credit is due, Clinton eliminated a budget deficit and gave us a budget surplus. Bush destroyed that surplus and now Obama is going to QUADRUPLE Bush's 'once' record deficit.

A DEFICIT IS A PROBLEM. Government spending will not get us out of a recession. It didn't in the early 80s, 90s, 00s, and it will not work now.

Chris said...

ytownMetz: Government spending doesn't get us out of recessions?

I seem to recall a recession back in the 30's, and Keynesian-style spending picked us right out of that one...

I'd rather have a deficit to pay off than spin into a depression cycle that reinforces itself and lasts for a decade/+.

Matthew Peter said...

The nicest thing I can say about this article is that it has nuggets of truth. Unfortunately they are buried under piles of crazy...

How on earth can you assign a definitive rate of return on these future investments? This is lunacy, plain and simple. AND it is exactly why so many state pension funds are in dire straits (see: New Jersey, New York, California et al.).

Our deficit is a major problem. Refusing to acknowledge this fact is an even greater problem. Increasing the deficit now will only exacerbate future economic disasters.

Felix said...

"There are only two ways to do that—by cutting government spending and by raising taxes."

um, there are other ways of reducing deficit. like, if you increase the nation's prosperity, tax revenue will increase without increases in tax rates or additional taxes.

Roger O Thornhill said...

We need to cut defense spending. US Defense Spending In Context - http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/05/us-defense-spending-in-context.php#comments

harold said...

The Bush administration may have run up a big deficit by accident, but for years, in right wing circles, there has been talk of a strategy of creating deficits during non-recessionary periods, in order to hamper any attempt at stimulus spending once a recession hits. I know this is true because I discussed it with real live right wingers back in the Clinton era, and they agreed that this was a conservative idea that they supported.

Obama has to work with a deficit because the Bush administration drained the treasury during the seven fat years.

The only other alternatives are to fail to take any action or to cut government spending during a recession. Deficits are bad, of course, but the other alternatives are probably much worse.

Bush created a terrible situation and there is no easy way out of it. There will be a substantial impact. Eventually, things should improve.

A.J. said...

$300 billion is 30% of a trillion.

7 - 4 = 30 ???

The whole post is pretty terrible and out of place. The quality of this blog is sinking fast. Nate, come back soon!!!

harold said...

And of course, yes, we could actually massively reduce the deficit by cutting wasteful military spending. We could still have the world's largest military by a wide margin.

It isn't "defense" spending if it doesn't contribute to actual defense of national security - it's just wasteful military spending.

Tanystropheus said...

Why is the font size so huge for this post? Somebody fix it, please.

I think it's a bit of a cop-out to say that spending cuts aren't the answer because the wrong programs tend to get cut. We need to build political pressure for cutting the correct programs!

J. III said...

Endowing certain paragraphs with an increased font size for emphasis looks amateurish. It strikes me as something Sean Quinn would do if he were still here. (Perish the thought.)

Pragmatus said...

We just had a pretty big tax increase here in California. The sales tax jumped 1% in April, up to 9.25% (LA County) and will rise another ½ percent on July 1.

There have been no massive protests, nor has civilization come crashing to the ground.

I think opposition to needed tax increases comes primarily from the wingnutosphere. Most people are willing to shell out in an emergency.

Off-topic but still amusing—more trouble in Paradise.
prowis: He had the prowis of a mowis.

broberts said...

As Felix suggested, increasing GDP is a third way in which budgets can be reduced, even eliminated. In fact it is probably the easiest and certainly the fastest way to achieve deficit reduction.

Tyson said...

I think he did make a math mistake - borrow a trillion dollars at 4% for a 7% return would generate $30 billion a year. But that doesn't change the logic. It makes sense to borrow if there are investments with a higher return than the cost of capital. That's the way it works in business. The tax payer will benefit because economic growth with increase the base, thus reducing the necessary rate of taxation in the long run. And clearly the nation's infrastructure, education system, healthcare system, and energy system have all been underfunded over the past decade plus, so there are some high return opportunities out there. What happened to Obama's idea of having a national investment bank to make sure that the money went into good investments and not wasteful pork barrel projects? (not that all pork projects are wasteful, but a good percentage of them probably are).

My nominees for new taxes: pollution (through carbon tax or cap and trade or whatever is do-able) and value added tax. My nominees for spending cuts: agricultural subsidies for large farms

John said...

I'd like to ask Broberts or Felix to answer a key question, how do you increase GDP when business is contracting at record levels without deficit spending? Is there a magic genie involved?

David said...

The issue isn't taxes or what tax rate, but what am I getting in return for my investment. For example, I'll gladly pay taxes for roadwork because it increases commerce and everyone's wealth. The small amount of taxes is worth the pay.

I don't want to pay taxes on -- say -- paying farmers not to grow crops, so they can charge more for food. It makes me poorer, and decreases my wealth.

Somewhere along the line, Republicans moved away from "We want fewer government services -- therefore lower taxes" to simply "Tax cuts are the answer".

The idea that lowering taxes always increases overall tax revenue -- thus tax cuts are always the answer came from a single datapoint.

In the 1960s, the U.S. government was worried about a recession, and did a slight tax rate cut. The economy recovered and actually brought in more tax revenue than anticipated.

Ever since then, cutting taxes has increased the deficit. The George H.W. Bush tax increase and the subsequent tax increase done by the Clinton administration. Plus, the cutting of a lot of government spending eliminated the deficit.

Of course, both George H.W. Bush (who lost his reelection to Clinton due to the tax increase) and Clinton (who lost the Democratic majority in both houses of Congress for the first time in 40 years) suffered politically for this.

One thing that the Clinton administration did show is that a simple fiscally responsible program can quickly reduce the deficit. Clinton was running budget surpluses for a few years, and the entire U.S. deficit was on target to have been retired in three to four years.

The tax increases and the lockdown on public spending showed that the U.S. was serious about paying off its deficit. This caused a reduction in the interest rate of the treasury bills. The reduction in the interest rate almost cut what we needed to pay in order to pay off the deficit.

In fact, it was the great reduction of the U.S. deficit that may have caused the current economic crisis we're now in.

With the reduction of the deficit, there were fewer treasury bills to buy for safe investment. At one time under Clinton, you couldn't even by 20 year treasury bills. Even worse, the amount of interest on the treasury bill sank to a few percentage points. Fewer treasuries without a decrease in the number of people who wanted them meant that the U.S. could pay lower interest.

Without the treasuries, investors started looking for other investments that paid a decent return, but were considered safe. This fostered the creation of mortgage back securities. At first, mortgage back securities were a fairly safe investment. Banks took care to make sure that their customers could pay them back.

As the demand for mortgage backed securities increased, it started outstripping the supply of available good mortgages. Thus, mortgage companies started lowering their requirements to feed the demand.

We quickly went from the standard 20% down/20 year, strong income mortgages to the no money down, "lier loans" (you tell us your income, we promise not to check to see if you're telling the truth), to NINJA loans (No Income. No Job or Assets) just to feed the market.

Pragmatus said...

If Obama is successful in turning the economy around, and if by the end of his second term we once again can foresee a time when the standing debt can be paid off, I predict that the foolish electorate, gulled by more pie-in-the-sky promises, will return the Republicans to power, which will start the cycle of ruination over again.

Tony C. said...

Back to the railroad:

If spending $6B allows trucks to save $12B a year, that sounds like an economic opportunity for private enterprise.

Obviously shippers would rather use the shorter trip period (shorter trips mean more trips per year, faster response times, less cost of money for inventory), and taking a shorter trip and saving on fuel is a no-brainer (a railroad gets 10 times the fuel efficiency of an 18-wheeler, per ton-mile). So, instead of saving the shippers $12B, keep $6B and save the shippers $6B.

The lifetime of the bridge with maintenance is about 100 years, so if it earns $6B a year, the present value after inflation (3.3% per year) is $190B. Kind of a no-brainer.

Yet it isn't done, is it? It certainly isn't impossible to raise $6B in equity; Berkshire could do that deal alone. This suggests to me that perhaps the economic benefit isn't quite as wonderful as is portrayed. It seems unlikely Buffett or some other master of the universe would fail to pick up a $190B asset for 3.2 cents on the dollar.

Pragmatus said...

Tony C…

The $12B generated by the $6B infrastructure investment doesn’t show up as actual money. It shows up as increased productivity, which translates into greater earnings, which then feeds more into the tax revenues.

Berkshire Hathaway, as far as I know, is not in the business of levying taxes.

Realist said...

Good article. I look forward to your next one.

Henry said...

Enjoyed the article very much. Clear writing and sound reasoning. I hope to see more like this.

Tony C. said...

Robert Frank:
We disagree on what apppropriate investments are for government. As a general rule, I think government is and should be the opposite of business: We want government to run the enterprises that we (the majority) do not want to be run for a profit motive.

The obvious examples are police protection and other law enforcement, licensing of professionals such as doctors, health and safety inspections for products, foods, drugs and buildings, and the military.

Less obvious examples are garbage collection, sewage treatment, and road building.

For the last, any road is essentially a monopoly, and if all roads are toll roads run at a profit it will cost us all ten times as much just to get back and forth to work. It is cheaper for everybody to pay the highway taxes (or fuel taxes), accept some inefficiencies in road building and maintenance, but not have to spend 10% of our pay on tolls everyday, just getting to work and the grocery store.

I think the hospital and pharma industry are quickly becoming industries most Americans would rather be run as break-even non-profits, because the bill for life-saving treatment or drugs has increasingly become "everything you own," and people having a heart attack are not in a very good position to negotiate. Pay or die.

This is not a business we want run for profit! In fact, the hallmark of a good government investment is that it is not profitable at all, but just breaks even or straight up loses money.

Government is not business, what we should all want from government is for it to do those things that most of us agree should not be done at a profit, because of the huge potential of the profit motive to corrupt the system, or exploit or endanger people.

I might accept an argument that the government should own and maintain the railroads for the public good, like it owns the Interstate Highway system. I don't agree that taxpayers should spend $6B so some railroad company can double their business and profits. The government should not be in the business of explicitly aiding specific private enterprises. It should be clear by now, in light of current events, that this produces rampant corruption, cronyism, favoritism and ultimately untold economic harm.

Tony C. said...

Pragmatus:
So I didn't read the report, but I take it the $12B is all hand-wavy "productivity" increases or something?

That would make sense; my understanding of the shipping industry (slightly more than the average person) is that the railroads charge per ton-mile, and the standard 53' container can be shipped on one car or stacked on top of each other. But the double stack is just for efficiency, it doesn't save you much or let you ship anything taller; the containers are standardized and there are only six sizes or so. So use two cars; they don't charge by the car, they charge by the weight times distance.

This all means there must be some other reason for not using the rail. I suspect the "productivity" gains or whatever this $12B is supposed to be doesn't get realized by anybody; simply not allowing stacked containers is not a coherent argument as far as I can tell.

GROG said...

@Pragmatus:

California has some of the highest, most cripling tax rates in the country and yet the state is in a financial crisis. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Edward said...

The funny thing is that spending money to get a good return is actually an original Conservative idea, from the Father of Conservatism himself, Edmund Burke:

Mere parsimony is not economy. Expense, and great expense, may be an essential part in true economy. Economy is a distributive virtue, and consists not in saving but selection. Parsimony requires no providence, no sagacity, no powers of combination, no comparison, no judgment.Letter to a Noble Lord (1796)

As you see, Burke has perfectly described the current Republican Party's intellectual bankruptcy. They, on the other hand, now treat the ideas of Burke, Nixon, and Goldwater as Tax and Spend Liberalism, or worse.

Specifically, Nixon has become a tree-hugger (EPA), Commie (guaranteed income), appeaser (trip to China), peacenik ("cutting and running" from Vietnam).

Goldwater himself said, "I never left the Republican Party. My party left me." After all, he was for gays in the military, and vehemently against the Religious Right and anything resembling the Bush Administrations' violations of US citizens' liberties.

Adam said...

@GROG

If it's not a coincidence, then what is the correlation?

Dave said...

In the 1990s, we had several things which helped erase the budget deficits:

(1) PAYGO - no new spending or tax cuts could be enacted without offsets (i.e. tax increases and/or spending cuts) elsewhere in the budget. The Republicans let this expire in 2002 so they could enact tax cuts and spending increases (I.e. Medicare Part D) without any corresponding offsets. They offered phony, watered down, new versions of PAYGO, all rejected, until the Dems reenacted it in 2007.

(2) We had divided government from 1995-2000. Clinton vetoed the Republican Congress's tax cuts, and Clinton's spending was DOA in the Congress.

(3) We had spending caps stemming from the early 1990s budgets. This helped to hold down spending, too.

(4) Ross Perot's 1992 presidential campaign helped bring the deficit to the forefront so people actually cared more about then than they do now.

(5) Clinton and the Dems in Congress did a courageous thing by raising taxes on the rich in the 1993-94 budget. The Republicans tried to make it seem like it was a "huge tax increase on all Americans" when in reality nearly everyone's income taxes were not affected by the changes at all. The Republicans still moan and groan about it today.

Pragmatus said...

GROG…

Let’s get the cart before the horse, shall we?

The state of California was plunged into financial crisis by #1 the housing meltdown, and #2 the general subsequent meltdown. This began in 2008 and accelerated rapidly in early 2009.

The tax increase I spoke of was implemented in April 2009. You implied causation—how? Do you and your GOP friends have a time machine?

If this increase was indeed “crippling” as you characterize it, doncha think those crippled by it would be complaining?

The only whines I hear are coming from the likes of you, who have no stake whatever in the outcome.

Pragmatus said...

Message for Any Fence-Straddlers Out There…

If you want government to balloon exponentially, vote Republican.

If you think it’s OK to increase the accumulated federal debt six-fold over the course of two presidential terms, vote Republican.

If you happy being gulled into thinking you are paying less taxes when you are actually paying more, vote Republican.

If you don’t much care where you end up when you are old, penniless and sick, vote Republican.

If you are satisfied being a mindless tool of the super rich and business interests, even to your great detriment, vote Republican.

If you are happy with people telling you what to think and do, vote Republican.

Colin said...

Pragmatus,

All those things you said about Republicans apply equally to Democrats too.

zosima said...

There is an old idea for a land use tax called the "Single Tax" that would probably be a brilliant source of revenue because it is one of the few taxes that does nothing to distort market incentives.

As I understand it, it taxes income from land ownership and natural resource ownership at a high level, but is different from a property tax because it does not tax land value.

Economically, this is one of the few taxes without a downside. The price-point stays the same. It decreases producer surplus, but because profit from land-ownership is essentially free money, it doesn't give the producer any incentive to stop producing.

Avi Kahan said...

Robert Frank you are delusional. Do you actually believe that the government is going to earn a positive rate of return on their programs? How has their investment worked out with GM? With Chrysler? With Fannie Mae? With Freddie Mac? With AIG? Now you can argue to me that gov. spending in a recession can be a good thing from a maximum capacity Keynesian perspective and we can have that debate another day, but arguing that they are going to make money on their investment is so insane it goes well beyond my bounds of credulity

harold said...

Colin said -

All those things you said about Republicans apply equally to Democrats too.text

Is that true? Let's see. Remember Colin, you said equallyIf you want government to balloon exponentially, vote Republican.text

The largest single part of government spending is military spending, which was decreased slightly under Clinton but exploded under Bush.

Did the size of the government balloon under Clinton? Under Bush? Be sure to use very specific numbers and explain why they are justified.

If you think it’s OK to increase the accumulated federal debt six-fold over the course of two presidential terms, vote Republican.text

Bush did this, Clinton did the opposite, and Obama hasn't been in office for two terms and also hasn't increased federal debt six-fold.

If you happy being gulled into thinking you are paying less taxes when you are actually paying more, vote Republican.text

I tried to explain to people, during the Bush era, that a small tax cut is worthless (actually harmful) if the price of it is a large decrease in the value of your home or your savings, or
the loss of your job. I was proven right.

If you don’t much care where you end up when you are old, penniless and sick, vote Republican.text

This one's a no-brainer. Republican ideology specifically condemns public programs that help needy people. Right wingers have fought and fight every program, including even the most basic ones, every time. Commentators who are invited to Republican events and overtly favor the Republicans, such as Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, and Sean Hannity, frequently express contempt for poorer people.

You might comically deny that here, but if you did so on a right wing web site, you'd be hooted down by Republican supporters.

If you are satisfied being a mindless tool of the super rich and business interests, even to your great detriment, vote Republican.text

Obviously, this applies to both, but you said "equally". Republicans openly campaign on being more favorable to the rich and to business interests.

Erik Nilsson said...

@Tony C; "But the double stack is just for efficiency, it doesn't save you much..." Like you, I'm not a rail rate expert, but I do know the railroads were deregulated several times ('76 and '80 for example) and now enjoy significant freedom in setting rates and negotiating volume discounts. I believe your analysis would have entirely accurate as of 1959 and largely accurate as of 1975, but AFAIK the situation today is pretty much the opposite.

One issue with double-stacks is that there is a practical limit to how long a train you can run. (You have to be able to fit in the rail yard, etc.) If you can stack two high, you can get twice as many containers in a train for essentially the same labor in operating the train.

Also, the carriers have significant weight, and frictional loss isn't linear with train weight, so when you double-stack you don't double fuel consumption either.

The carriers are fairly expensive, so you double the capital cost associated with the carriers if you only stack one high.

From a system standpoint, you can move twice as much freight through your corridor by double-stacking, and the rail lines themselves are very expensive. If the corridor is at capacity, then shippers will pay more, but it won't get more freight moved by rail.

If there were not significant economic benefits to double-stacking, then it never would have been implemented.

BearFu Rage said...

"In fact, most economists argue that we should be running even bigger deficits in the short run."
That's the opposite of what I heard. Sources please?

"if the government borrowed a trillion dollars at 4 percent and invested the money in projects with an annual return of 7 percent, we’d actually be richer each year by $30 billion than if we hadn’t made those investments."
A three percent return barely keeps pace with inflation. We would be lucky to break even with this plan, but the real problem with this assertion is that it ignores opportunity costs. Private businesses would be able to get a much better return than the government if they were able to leverage that money.

Interesting idea on shifting where taxes are though. It's a shame that our tax system heavily favors debt over equity.

harold said...

Avi Kahan -

Do you actually believe that the government is going to earn a positive rate of return on their programs?Well, in the first place, this isn't an insane thing to believe, and it happens all the time, even if we define it in the most direct and simplistic way. Eg. -

1) Government builds a toll bridge and recovers the cost due to tolls, and increased tax receipts due to greater commerce facilitated by the bridge.

2) Government provides fire fighting and police service, and costs to the government (including lost revenues) related to poorly handled fires and rampant crime are reduced enough to offset the cost of the service.

However, in a democracy, the government represents the population, including the taxpayers.

The real point is that government expenditures can produce a net benefit (greater benefit, in terms of dollars or utility, than the amount of expenditures) for society as a whole.

Amelia said...

Increasing the deficit is going to be disastrous down the road. Even Obama has warned us about the dangers of the ballooning deficit. I'm a big fan of "the power of small," and smaller is definitely better when it comes to government debt.

harold said...

BearFu Rage said -

Private businesses would be able to get a much better return than the government if they were able to leverage that money.text

How do you know that? There are many things that are best done by private businesses and there are things that are best done by government. To deny either of those facts is to be a rigid ideologue.

Amelia said -

I'm a big fan of "the power of small," and smaller is definitely better when it comes to government debt.And that sounds obvious enough. I wish George Bush had believed that.

However, it just isn't that simple.

There are times when the government should try to eliminate deficits, and there are also times, such as severe recessions, when the government should transiently borrow and spend.

A big part of our current problems is that George Bush ran up big deficits during times when the government should have been trying to eliminate deficits (*and the WTC attack is not an excuse for this*).

BearFu Rage said...

@harold & Colin

You're going to have trouble any time you say Dems/Republicans always make government bigger. In the last century government has grown constantly (though not at a constant rate) no matter who was in control.

You're also going to have trouble if you point to Bush as representative of the Republican viewpoint. Republicans have multiple personality disorder right now--The Religious Right on one hand and the fiscally conservative. Bush was the former, and the latter disowned him.

nova_middle_man said...

Wow just wow

Question is there anything government shouldn't be involved in

I seriously can't argue with your logic if you think government is the best to invest in and fix our problems

In most cases its up to the individual and private enterprise. Personal choice and responsibility not government to the rescue on everything.

GROG said...
This post has been removed by the author.
GROG said...

@Pragmatus:

One of the great lies of the left is that the only way to increase tax revenues is to increase tax rates. This is a lie the left has perpetrated since the death of President Kennedy.

In fact, the one and only way to increase tax revenue is to increase GDP.

The history of the Kennedy, Reagan, and Bush tax cuts don't lie. All three implemented drastic tax cuts which increased GDP and all three times tax revenues soared.

"Our true choice is not between tax reduction, on the one hand, and the avoidance of large Federal deficits on the other. It is increasingly clear that no matter what party is in power, so long as our national security needs keep rising, an economy hampered by restrictive tax rates will never produce enough revenues to balance our budget just as it will never produce enough jobs or enough profits… In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now.".
President John F. Kennedy

John said...

If the government doesn't reform entitlements by, at least in part, cutting them than no amount of reasonable revenue increase will help the country in the future. Someone who says, spending isn't a problem, is either lying or delusional.

Mike in Maryland said...

Mr. Frank spoke of A specific example: Because a handful of low-clearance bottlenecks currently make it impossible to ship double-decker cargo containers along the northeast rail corridor, these containers must be carried by trucks.

I live within two miles of one of those bottlenecks - it is the Baltimore and Potomac (B&P) Tunnel south of Baltimore's Penn Station.

The B&P Tunnel opened on June 29, 1873. Since that date, the basic structure of the tunnel has not changed except for a lowering of the tunnel floor by approximately 2-1/2 feet to accommodate larger trains.

The B&P Tunnel is owned by Amtrak, and carries about 135 Amtrak and MARC commuter trains per weekday. During overnight and weekends, a lot of freight is carried through the tunnel.

The tunnel is 7,669 feet in length (approx. 1-1/2 miles). For one mile, there is a 1.34 percent grade. Most railroads are built with a grade of 1 percent or less, otherwise helper engines are added to the train to assist it in negotiating the grade (up OR down).

In addition, the B&P Tunnel contains a sharp curve at the south portal of the tunnel prevents southbound trains from exceeding 30 mph while in the tunnel.

How will fixing the B&P Tunnel help the economy? Here are just a few ways:

- Amtrak will be able to more quickly transport passengers through the tunnel, thus speed their trip time along the entire NorthEast Corridor;

- If the freight trains are able to increase their speed by as little as 15 mph (from 30 mph to 45 mph), it will drastically cut their time in the tunnel. In addition, the two most wasteful uses of fuel are 1) acceleration and 2) deceleration by braking;

- If the freight trains are able to double stack through the tunnel, they save weight, thus fuel. The rail car that a double stack is on weighs little more than a single rail car carrying a single container, but can carry twice the net cargo;

- Faster transport means that the goods arrive faster, and thus is more efficient for the company ordering (less time their money is held up between ordering and shipment arrival) and the company receiving the order (less time until they receive the money for the shipment of goods).

So Tony C., who benefits? Just about everyone who uses the NE Corridor and/or just about anyone who uses a product that some company ships along the NE Corridor. In other words, Tony C., it is not a single company or segment of population. It is the entire population.

Avi Kahan said...

Harold,

Of course the government can produce a net benefit on certain projects. There may be a bridge left to be build in this country that generates a positive return. There are also many more bridges that get built that generate a negative return. In the aggregate government spending is always a destroyer of wealth. If you don't believe that then you believe controlled economies can work. Are you saying to me that you believe in a controlled economy? Would you care to figure out the price of toilet paper? As to your point that "government expenditures can produce a net benefit (greater benefit, in terms of dollars or utility, than the amount of expenditures) for society as a whole" there is a way to measure that. It's called profits. It is the only way to measure the value of a good in a world of scarcity. The government has shown its inability to make profits time and time again.

Pragmatus said...

Avi Kahan…

You argument is simplistic, and easily demolished by referring you to the experience of the colossal deficit spending by the US government during World War II. Every economist in the solar system agrees that it was this exact deficit spending that finally cured the ills of the Great Depression. Yep, it caused an inflation spike after the war, which was brought under control quickly enough to allow my parents to buy their first house in 1950 at an interest rate of 3%.

So it sounds as if you are merely parroting opinions picked up elsewhere, without bothering to examine them, unless you are naïve enough to think that World War II came in under budget.

GROG said...

Pragmatus:

You're wrong. The Depression ended before the U.S. even entered WWII. It had nothing to do with defecit spending.

Mike in Maryland said...

BearFu Rage said...
In the last century government has grown constantly (though not at a constant rate) no matter who was in control.

Maybe part of that growth was caused strictly by increased population?

In 1910, the decennial census found there were 92,228,496 Americans; the 2010 decennial census will probably find that there are more than 307 million Americans, or a more than three-fold increase.

In 1914, at the start of World War I, but about three year before the US became involved in the war, the US Army was comprised of about 98,000 men, backed up by about 27,000 troops in the National Guard. That's about 1 soldier per 737 US residents.

In 2010, it is expected that the US Army will number about 550,000. The National Guard is expected to number about 850,000. With the Census Bureau currently estimating the US population will be more than 306,000,000, that means there is about 1 soldier per 218 US residents.

The population tripled. The Army and National Guard increased by nine times.

Gee, I wonder if that increase had anything to the size of government increasing?

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

harold said...

Nova_middle_man said -

Wow just wow

Question is there anything government shouldn't be involved in
text

Of course there is, and no-one said otherwise.

I seriously can't argue with your logic if you think government is the best to invest in and fix our problemstext

The logic that has been expressed is that a representative, democratic government can play a positive role in bringing about an economic recovery.

And I agree that you seriously can't argue with that logic.

In most cases its up to the individual and private enterprise.Thank you so much for completely agreeing with me. You said "most", not "all". Therefore you reject and are rejected by the right wing ideology that currently controls the Republican party.

Personal choice and responsibility not government to the rescue on everything.text

I'm strongly in favor of personal responsibility, and I don't see much evidence that Republicans as a group exhibit it.

Avi Kahan said

In the aggregate government spending is always a destroyer of wealth. If you don't believe that then you believe controlled economies can worktext

Incorrect, you create a false dichotomy.

I completely oppose undemocratic command economies, in fact, one of the few things I would oppose more than some crazy laissez faire economic program would be Soviet style communism.

History has done the experiment, and the results are obvious. Countries which combine a free market and respect for human rights with an active representative government which can regulate for the common good, and care for the most vulnerable, achieve the best results. Examples of such countries include the United States, which may be the most imperfect but which pioneered such a system, the UK, Canada, Australia, Western European democracies, Japan, South Korea, and many smaller nations.

That's the way it is, and living in such a country is probably why you have a computer, access to the internet, and freedom to express yourself.

whispers said...

a) the Bush tax cuts need to be allowed to expire

b) the massive expansion in military spending has to stop one way or another

c) the government has to stop bailing out Wall Street

Avi Kahan said...

Pragmatus -- When you say every economist in the solar system believes WWII got us out of the depression you are wrong. Check out the Mises Institute and Austrian Economists.

Harold - It would be nice to have you view. It makes the soul feel better. Unfortunately, it is not correct. In your latest comment you point to the United States as a shining example of a mix between free market and government regulation as being best. The history of the United States suggests differently. This country was founded with an incredibly small Federal Government. Small changes have occurred throughout time that have contributed to its demise including but not limited to the removal of the gold standard, the creation of the Federal Reserve, and the disregard for the commerce clause of the Constitution.

Mike in Maryland said...

Avi Kahan,

There are still people who state that the world would be much better off if Adolf Hitler had won the second World War.

There are still people who state that the world would be much better off if Stalin's political philosophy had been the victor in the post World War II era.

So you can take your singular example of an extremist economic philosophy and drop it in the toilet, remembering to flush immediately after dropping it in the toilet.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Ryan said...

I wish that everyone had to take a public finance class in high school (or even college). A lot of these discussions would be more informed with some basic theoretical knowledge.

When the market works, we have no need for government. In cases of market failure, the government has a role, and can make everybody better off. Times when there is a role for government include:
1. Moral Hazard
2. Adverse Selection
3. Monopoly
4. Externalities
5. Public goods problems

We may also believe in a paternalistic or redistributive role of government, though these are more subject to philosophical believes outside of rational economics.

With actual policy it is difficult to tell when there is a market failure that needs to be corrected or when the improvement of one group is worth the detriment of another. Policy is not as easy as theory.

However, the point is: You cannot flat out say that government should be bigger or smaller without considering the underlying economics at work.

And I want to thank Professor Frank for contributing to this blog with his vast knowledge of economic theory and his ability to put it in terms that anyone can understand. fivethirtyeight is lucky to have him.

Pragmatus said...

Avi Kahan...

Your apparently serious suggestion that we return to the gold standard suggests you don't think about things very long or very hard.

We have the great economy we have becuase of the existence of credit, which is what the Federal Reserve does—create and regulate credit.

The aggregate of all the economies of the world adds up to a multiple of perhaps billions of times the value of all the gold that exists on earth.

How do you suggest paring the economies of the world back to fit into your fantasy of returning to the gold standard?

It was this very realization that caused the world to go off the gold standard in the 1930s.

Avi Kahan said...

Pragmatus

The Federal Reserve regulates credit. What happens is some times they provide too much credit and some times they provide too little. Because the free market isn't providing the credit the amount of credit floating around is always erroneous. Let's look at the mission statement of the Federal Reserve which is to prevent booms and busts in the economy. Without resorting to personal attacks that make you look like a child how would you say the Federal Reserve has done at this?

Mike in Maryland said...

Avi Kahan,

When you state Small changes have occurred throughout time that have contributed to its demise, the demise of what?

The US?

I haven't seen the obit of the US in anything but a fantasy publication.

The federal government?

Isn't President Obama the head of the federal government, or at least the Executive Branch, 1/3 of the federal government, and the branch with the most employees? And just four months ago, wasn't little shrub the President of the US?

Or maybe you're discussing something else when you say 'demise'. If so, then please let us know what it is you are discussing. Maybe it is the Mises Institute and Austrian Economists you are stating are 'demised'?

Or maybe it's just best that you keep quiet and let us speculate about your intellect, rather than you speaking up and confirming our suspicions about it.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Avi Kahan said...

Hi Mike,

That's the difference between you and I. I encourage other people to voice their opinions rather than telling them to "keep quiet." If you believe everything is well and good with the government running a 2 trillion dollar deficit more power to you.

Alon Levy said...

Avi: when you support the economic equivalent of creationism, it doesn't really matter how nice you are to people and how much you encourage them to voice their own opinions.

Richard said...

In your latest comment you point to the United States as a shining example of a mix between free market and government regulation as being best.Actually, Avi, Harold said the US was the most imperfect example of such a system.

Avi, you also failed to answer Pragmatus' question about how you propose to maintain the world's gargantuan economy with the monetary supply implied by the gold standard you advocate. Even if all the gold ever produced (estimated at about 5.5 billion ounces) could be gathered together in gold reserves (as it clearly cannot), the value of all the gold in the world at gold-standard rates ($20/oz) would be about $110B, compared to a total world M1 of about $20T. That's a cut to the money supply by a factor of about 180; in other words, you are talking about deflating the dollar 99.45%!

But let's assume that rather than deflate the currency by a factor of 180 you are willing to forego the venerable tradition of $20 gold and freeze gold's value at today's (I think speculatively inflated) prices. At about $900/oz, the total gold in all the world amounts to about $5T, still a factor of four off, but implying a deflation of only 75%. And each $10 gold eagle coin could still be about .01 oz of gold!

Do you honestly think such a deflation could possibly be a good thing for our economy?

nova_middle_man said...

Harold I think we basically agree

Tony C made some excellent points as well.

However the original post presents a much different scenario which frankly scares me

Thats the problem with these ivory tower types of not understanding the real world. Also, if he feels so strongly about this he (and many of the other liberal intelligencia) should have no problem paying more in taxes than they currently own. For some reason almost noone decides to voluntarily do that.

Tony C. said...

Erik Nillson:
Mike in Maryland:
Okay, good arguments, and I am in favor of spending trillions on infrastructure, so I am sure that on balance I am a proponent of this upgrade. The IH system has paid for itself hundreds of times over in general benefit to the USA, including to every citizen in the form of reduced transportation costs that get passed on as savings. So this isn't that much different.

However, The IH system required government to be created, it required eminent domain for land and rights of way, not to mention a trillion dollars in construction costs.

Now certainly the IH system benefits some companies more than others; but no one company enjoys even 1% of the total benefit.

To focus on the case MiM presents, doesn't Amtrak enjoy an outsized chunk of the profit, by charging for increased passenger traffic and doubling their cargo capacity?

Infrastructure helps everybody. Seriously. But let me provide an analogy that might clarify the argument: Say I own a hundred acres of raw land, well outside the city, worth $1M. I am a believer in geothermal energy, it is clean, 100% emission free, and cheaper than hydroelectric, solar, wind and ocean power.

Now on this land I could start a geothermal electric generation plant and hook it up to the grid for about $40M. Which I do not have and cannot borrow.

Should the government give it to me? Not a loan! Just pay for the construction on my land, and let me enjoy the profit from it?

Just like the railroad, everybody benefits. The energy is clean and about 15% cheaper than what people pay for it now, and it provides competition for current alternatives ("current," heh, pun intended). Like the railroad, this is an infrastructure project, and green, and will provide lots of hardhat jobs and permanent jobs. I will pay my taxes, local and federal.

According to your arguments for the railroad bridges, I don't see any difference between me and Amtrak. But I don't think it would be appropriate for the taxpayers to just build and give me a geothermal power plant, and I don't think it would be appropriate for us to just give Amtrak a $500M (or whatever) route upgrade to bypass or overpass or underpass or replace Mike's bridge. A loan, perhaps, even a 60 year mortgage.

I do not mind if a company gets rich off taxpayer money by providing the government fair return in products or services, but our government should not be in the business of bestowing direct gifts upon individual companies.

Ryan said...

Regarding the gold standard... it is exactly right that there isn't enough gold (or enough gold and silver) to feasibly supply the world's economies. We can't cut metal small enough. Economies would deflate and cannot grow.

There are two excellent books, one by MIT economist Peter Temin "Lessons from the Great Depression" and one by I believe Berkeley economist Barry Eichengreen, that convincingly argue that the Great Depression was caused/exacerbated by adherence to a metal standard and bad (deflationary beggar-thy-neighbor) international fed policy.

To give some credit, not all economists believe that WWII was necessary to get us out of the Great Depression... some people believe that a combination of expansionary policies and getting federal reserve policy right would have caused the recovery anyway.

George_Phillies said...

You write: "For instance, if the government borrowed a trillion dollars at 4 percent and invested the money in projects with an annual return of 7 percent, we’d actually be richer each year by $30 billion than if we hadn’t made those investments."

That's assuming that the money would otherwise have earned nothing.

Your underlying assumption appears unreasonable.

At the moment, the government appears to be specializing investing in the losing end of our economy, e.g., the banks that are poorly run and went broke, suggesting that the return on current investments may be negative.

broberts said...

John, got dragged away, so couldn't respond sooner. I posted my comment regarding GDP growth as fastest way to reduce deficits mostly with the thought that because this is so it makes more sense for a government to concentrate on developing a climate that increases GDP growth rather than cutting taxes or massive program cuts.

Cutting taxes as the last bunch of them have shown actually hurts so much on the revenue side that any GDP increase they spur is not realized by sufficiently improved government revenues.

Massive program cuts are simply not politically feasible. Halving the military budget is not going to happen. And, as they say social security is the third rail.

Deficits are always a concern, but governments are not people and not business. Governments, most particularly the federal government does not have the same constraints regarding spending that individuals and businesses do.

juvanya said...

Federally funded congressional campaigns is an idea, but proportional representation is even better. You can have several parties that all run as their own big group and don't need to divert funding here and there. No need for "contributors" because people will be more passionate about the more representative parties and will donate more.

Ellen said...

The government taxes new job creation? That makes me want to cry.

Matthew H said...

There's other ways to balance a budget too, you know. Write off debt (no more Social Security). Inflation (effectively cutting the cost of old debt). It's not all just cut current spending or raise taxes.

Bart said...

Does the suggestion of shifting cargo transport to the renovated rail lines include the impacts on the efficiency of the increased volume of rail transit? That is, will the increased congestion along the rail lines offset, and possibly even entirely negate, the gains made on the roads? The same question applies to the emission levels--will the trains pollute less?

Tony C. said...

Bart:
Trains will move a given load, such as a cargo container, ten times as far on a gallon of diesel than will an eighteen-wheel truck. The diesel pollutes, but at 1/10th the rate. I think the least-polluting form of heavy cargo transport is by barge, either river or coastal. Barges require about 1/4 the fuel of trains, last I read.

Bart said...

Tony C.: Thanks for the information. That is exactly what I was looking for. Do you have a source where I can find information on things like this so I won't have to ask about it next time?

Thanks again.

Tony C. said...

Bart:
Well, I found mine a year ago by various Google searches; but now you can go to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency_in_transportation

You just might have to convert liters/kilometers into gallons and miles, but I will let you do the arithmetic on that.

Besides, it is interesting: It says human food energy efficiency is the equivalent of getting 235 miles/gallon!

Bart said...

Tony C., thank you very much for the help!

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