5.28.2009

Operation Gringo: Can the Republicans Sacrifice the Hispanic Vote and Win the White House?



Since the Republicans, to say the least, do not seem particularly inclined to curry favor with Hispanic voters by playing nice on Sonia Sotomayor, it's worth engaging in the following thought experiment: Can the Republicans win back the White House in 2012 or 2016 while losing further ground among Latinos? And if so, what is their most plausible path to victory?

I think the answer to the first question is 'yes' -- although it depends, of course, on exactly how much more ground they lose, as well as how much ground they could hope to gain among white voters. If they chose to pursue this strategy, the Republicans would probably elect to make immigration a linchpin issue of their campaign, perhaps coupled with the adoption of some paleoconservative, protectionist rhetoric on issues like NAFTA. While this strategy would be at best a temporary fix -- it would become less effective each passing year as the country continues to grow more diverse -- it might have some strategic benefits in the next two elections, particularly if the economy remains poor or there is some sort of double-dip recession.

In 2008, the Latino vote made the difference in the outcome of three states: New Mexico, where about 2 in 5 voters identify as Hispanic, as well as -- somewhat surprisingly -- Indiana and North Carolina -- where Obama lost nonhispanic voters by a tiny margin and was put over the top by Hispanic votes. It probably also made the difference, believe it or not, in the 2nd Congressional District of Nebraska -- Omaha actually has a decent-sized Hispanic minority -- although the exit polls aren't detailed enough to let us know for sure.

That the Hispanic vote helped Obama to win electoral votes in such "gringo" territories as Nebraska and Indiana is a reminder that there are Hispanics everywhere now; the presence of a surprisingly large and extremely Democratic-leaning Hispanic vote in New Jersey, for example, is one reason why Republicans are no longer competitive there. Moreover, the growth rate of the Hispanic population tends to be fastest in such nontraditional areas as the South and even the Prairie states. According to the Census Bureau, the state where the age 18+ Hispanic population grew the fastest between 2007 and 2008 was South Carolina (+6.6%), followed by a three-way tie between North Carolina, North Dakota and South Dakota (each +6.5%).

Still, the most immediate and obvious downside to the Republicans would be in the Southwest. They would sacrifice New Mexico and Nevada, where Obama already won by 15- and 12-point margins respectively, perhaps for the foreseeable future. Although Colorado is not quite in the same category, the Republicans are already suffering from the migration of well-educated (and largely white) coastal liberal voters into the state; to deliberately sacrifice its Hispanic vote, which represented 13 percent of its electorate in 2008, would render the state all but unwinnable for them. So let's assume that any manifestation of Operation Gringo cannot rely on votes from Nevada, New Mexico, or Colorado.

Let's now work backward to figure out which states the Republicans can win. The states that John McCain won in 2008 -- counting 4 of Nebraska's 5 electoral votes -- were worth 173 electoral votes last year, but will be worth 178 in 2012, according to a recent estimate from Election Data Services. So starting with that 178-EV baseline, let's begin adding states back into the Republican column in reverse order of difficulty. Note that all electoral vote totals listed in the balance of this article reflect 2012 projections rather than 2008 figures.

Indiana (+11 electoral votes; 189 total). As we mentioned earlier, Indiana's small but heavily Demoratic-leaning Hispanic population actually made the difference in the state last November, giving Obama his 1-point victory. Nevertheless, it's a very white state, and Republicans are unlikely to be taken by surprise in Indiana as they were last time around.

Nebraska's 2nd Congressional District (+1 Electoral Vote; 190 total). This is not necessarily a gimme. As of 2007, 11 percent of Omaha's population was estimated to be Latino, and another 13 percent African-American. Still, if Operation Gringo can't work in Omaha, it probably can't work anywhere.

North Carolina (+15 electoral votes; 205 total). North Carolina is probably going to be a bit more difficult for the Republicans to win back than Indiana. Operation Gringo or no, they are unlikely to gain any ground with the state's substantial black population, and as we described earlier its Hispanic population is growing rapidly and may represent 5 or 6 percent of its electorate by 2012. Still, it's one of their easier targets, particuarly if the Republicans nominate a Southerner.

Ohio (+19 electoral votes; 224 total). Ohio is ground zero for the Operation Gringo strategy. Never an especially terrific state for Obama, Republicans could gain ground there if they try and trump Obama on issues like NAFTA.

Iowa (+6 electoral votes; 230 total) and New Hampshire (+4 electoral votes; 234 total). One nice advantage the Republican nominee will have in 2012 is that he (or she) will have spent many months barnstorming through Iowa and New Hampshire, giving them a head start on endearing themselves to that state's voters. Coupled with the fact that Iowa and New Hampshire are as white as any states in the country, they're two of the more plausible targets.

Virginia (+13 electoral votes; 247 total). Don't take this for granted; 30 percent of Virginia's electorate was nonwhite in 2008 (including 5 percent Hispanic) and among the white population, an increasing number are wealthy liberals whose ideological orientation is more Mason than Dixon. Moreover, it is a well-educated and fairly sophisticated state that might not take kindly to a campaign based on identity politics. But the Republicans will have to find some way to win it by a couple of points.

Florida (+28 electoral votes; 275 total). I know what you're going to say -- doesn't Florida have a substantial Latino population? It does, but much of that population is Cuban, a group with whom Republicans have long done reasonably well. Obama won only 57 percent of Florida's Hispanic votes in 2008, his smallest margin among any of the dozen or so states in which exit polls tracked this number.

If the Republicans did manage to win Florida, along with the other Obama states mentioned above, they would have a winning electoral map that looks like the following:



Note that New Hampshire is actually redundant here -- the Republicans could lose it and still win 271-267. They could also win New Hampshire but lose Iowa, which would give them a 269-269 tie, give or take a vote or two depending on how the electoral reallocation shakes out following the Census.

But we've made a big assumption here -- that Republicans can somehow cleave up the Cuban and non-Cuban Hispanics, and hold on to Florida and its 28 electoral votes. What if they can't? Let's bump them back down to 247 electoral votes and start finding some more states for them.

Pennsylvania (+20 electoral votes; 267 total). We saw how well the Republicans' all-out efforts to win Pennsylvania worked for them in 2008, and indeed they haven't won the state since 1988. Still, they could hope that the protectionist, anti-free trade components of Operation Gringo would play well enough among union workers to tip the balance in their favor, particularly if they've won back the state's governorship in 2010 and control of its political machine. Unfortunately, however -- unless they catch a couple breaks with the Census -- Pennsylvania alone would not be enough to get the Republicans to 270.

Minnesota (+10 electoral votes; 277 total). It's hard to know how to read Minnesota. The Republicans managed to hold Obama to "only" a 10-point victory there, less than his 14-point win in neighboring Wisconsin, which has traditionally been more of a swing state. Then again, they spent an awful lot of resources there -- including holding their convention in St. Paul -- to come even that close. But Minnesota is, of course, a very white state, and they would probably have to find some way to win it -- nobody said the Florida-less version of Operation Gringo was going to be easy.

If they pulled all of this off, it would give the Republicans a winning electoral map that looks as follows:



There is, however, another wrench in the works: Arizona, which we have been taking for granted until now. Arizona was not terribly competitive in 2008, but there is a good reason for that: it was John McCain's home state. Unless they pull a fast one on us and nominate John Kyl or Jeff Flake in 2012, the Republicans will not have that advantage next time around. The "home state advantage" is typically worth about 7 points, although it can vary from candidate to candidate and state to state. Considering how well Obama performed in some of Arizona's neighbors, it would probably have been competitive had McCain been from, say, Wyoming instead. With its large Hispanic population, it would certainly become competitive in 2012 if the Republicans chose to pursue an Operation Gringo strategy.

So let's assume that the Republicans lose Arizona, which projects to have 11 electoral votes by 2012. That knocks them back to 266 electoral votes. Their next best option is probably...

Wisconsin (+10 electoral votes; 276 total). This is a tall order. Obama won the state by 14 points, it would be besieged by volunteers from neighboring Illinois, and the state seems to have shaken off its Tommy Thompson experimental phase and returned to its more progressive roots. Nevertheless, if they could win Wisconsin, the Republicans could win the White House with this very strange-looking electoral map:



There is one last state that the Republicans might have a few concerns about: Texas. Twenty percent of its electorate was Hispanic in 2008; another 13 percent was black; and another 4 percent was Asian or Other. If Obama can win 98 percent of Texas' black vote, as he did in 2008, while improving to 75 percent of its Hispanic and "other" vote, that would get him to 47 percent of its vote based on its 2008 electoral demographics. But the demographics of Texas are changing in ways that are favorable to the Democrats, and so 50 percent-plus might be within his grasp.

If the Republicans were to lose Texas in addition to Arizona -- and let me disclaim, I don't think this is likely in 2012 but it might be relevant in 2016 and certainly 2020 -- then naturally they are in a whole heap of trouble. Texas will be up to 37 electoral votes in 2012 according to EDS projections (and may well hit 38); if we subtract the 37 electoral votes from the Republican column they are back down to 239. They would then need to win...

Michigan (+16 electoral votes; 255 total). We don't know what exactly what Michigan is going to look like four years hence in the wake of the disaster that has befallen the auto industry. What we do know is that Obama won it by 16 points and that, because the Republicans abandoned the state early on, they will be disadvantaged in 2012 by lacking things like up-to-date voter lists. Nevertheless, it's the best of a series of bad alternatives.

Maine (+4 electoral votes; 259 total). You got a better idea? Maine is certainly very white and, while not really a swing state in recent Presidential elections, has some history of behaving idiosyncratically: for instance, electing two Republican women to the Senate in spite of having went for Obama by 17 points. The Republicans could presumably also consider something like a Huckabee-Snowe ticket to improve their chances in Maine and New Hampshire.

But here is where things get really difficult. The next-closest available state based on 2008 results -- excluding those like Colorado that we eliminated earlier -- is New Jersey, which Obama won by 15.5 points. But New Jersey itself has a somewhat large Hispanic population -- about 15 percent of its adult population is Latino, and while its Hispanic turnout somewhat lagged in 2008, it would surely be motivated to register and vote by Operation Gringo. After New Jersey, the next-closest state in 2008 was Oregon, which was highly competitive as recently as 2004, but unfortunately it does not give the Republicans a sufficient number of electoral votes. That would seem to leave only...

Washington (+11 electoral votes; 270 total). Good luck. Washington hasn't voted Republican since 1984. Its electorate is not as white as you'd think -- 7 percent Hispanic in 2008 and another 7 percent Asian/other. Moreover, it would get the Republicans only to 270 electoral votes, exactly the number they'd need for victory, so if there are any fluctuations at all from the projected electoral vote totals (or they lost one of Maine's two congressional districts), it might only produce a tie or even a narrow loss. But beggars can't be choosers; we would at least have this very interesting map to look at:



This is the sort of electoral future the GOP might have to contemplate if they start losing the Hispanic vote by margins of 3:1, 4:1 or more. Giving up on New Mexico, Nevada and Colorado is a feasible, and perhaps even wise, strategy. But if they don't thread the needle just perfectly, and they make it difficult for themselves to win back Florida, while putting Arizona and perhaps even Texas increasingly into play, their task will become nearly impossible.

112 comments

Jared86 said...

Per CNN's exit polls, Maine's 1st Congressional District went for Obama by 62 - 36. Assuming Obama could hang onto that, he could make the electoral college a tie, in your last scenario. Also, McCain won whites in Virginia by a 21 point margin. If a Republican wants to win in Virginia, they'll have to make inroads among minorities or they will have to count on a decrease in turnout among minorities. The Republicans already have all the white voters they can get with identity politics - there just aren't enough of those voters left to put them over the top. And in 2008, the generational shift will help Democrats even more because more young people who grew up under Bush will be voting and the old people who supported McCain will be a smaller number.

e3323 said...

Dems win Texas but lose minnesota, wisconsin, MI and PA? HAAHAHAHAHAHA! no...

Obama will win in 2012 and whatever Dem will win in 2016...but they are not winning TEXAS.

Arizona? Yes.
Texas? No.

Maybe in 2028....but not 2012/2016.

The Turtle and the Goat said...

Great analysis. One comment, even though I don't have the statistics at hand. I read that the fastest growing latino group in Florida are the Puerto Ricans in the central part of the state. The percentage of Cubans in Florida is dropping. Puerto Rican are usually Democrats (whether the come from the island or from the Northeast).

Nate Silver said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Judge C. Crater said...

Nice set of thought experiments, Nate. I follow your logic but at the very end an electoral map showing Obama losing all those northern states is beyond belief. Say what you will about spending and strategy but Obama winning TX is far less likely than him winning WI. Especially since the R's still seem bound and determined to let their far right wing choose the candidate.

DerekSTheRed said...

If a Republican became pro-labor and voted for the EFCA, that would make winning the rust belt possible and maybe make Florida competitive.

m said...

I can't do anything but laugh at that map. If the republicans truly give up the Hispanic vote, they will never win again. The permanent loss of the South West would be insurmountable. I mean it would take a failure by Obama the likes of which no one can predict for republicans to win the white house and lose the Hispanic vote 4:1. I mean WI, MN, WA, IA all going Red is such a stretch.

As a Democrat I hope they ignore the Hispanic vote. I'll never have to wonder which party the next president will be from, just which one my party will nominate.

Baxter said...

I think your analysis is too fanciful. I would recommend a different method: start by depicting the electoral map if the GOP candidate were to bleed non-Cuban Latino support at a certain point across the board. In 2008, this figure was 31%, but if the party really went nuclear, you could suggest a scenario of 15-20% support. Taking that map, simply scale up white support for the GOP candidate across the board until a Republican victory is shown. The nationwide improvement among whites necessary for the GOP to offset bleeding Latino voters is the figure we want to see.

You could also go further and index the decrease in Latino support to the increase in white support in order to illustrate the difficult arithmetic at play in this analysis.

e3323 said...

DerekSTheRed: No republican could win the nomination if they were strongly pro-labor and supported tthe EFCA.

Besides....In 2012 the Republican machine is gonna be all..."You're getting Newt Gingrich and you're gonna like it!!!"

Michael said...

I am really wondering what percentage of people in the country and then we can brake this down into racial subsets can name 1 or 2 supreme court justices?

Do people truly believe that the republicans fighting this nomination would mean that hispanics will not vote for them. What percentage of people who will vote are actually aware of the nomination and will care in 4 years?

Chris said...

Interesting case of looking at the data after jumping off from an unsubstantiated opionion. Particularly interesting because I like this site because it usually takes others to task for doing the same exact thing (and uses stats to pull apart the central thesis). Starting the post with this statement, just seems wrong and has no statistical proof behind it (in fact, using a sample size of 1 with a link runs in the face of using stats to prove the statement out). Before making this statement you really should look at the level of opposition that's been raised for previous Supreme Court candidates and benchmark the Republican response against that. I would surmise that you would find that the Republican response has actually been quite muted in this case.


"Since the Republicans, to say the least, do not seem particularly inclined to curry favor with Hispanic voters by playing nice on Sonia Sotomayor, it's worth engaging in the following thought experiment:"

GaMeS said...

Nate,

I want to go on record saying that the title "Operation Gringo" made me shoot Diet Dr. Pepper out my nose.

Kudos. =)



p.s. I'm a native Texan, and my observations have long led me to believe that the state is a lot closer to being "in play" than almost anyone out there realizes. And, no, I don't live in Austin, our state's officially designated Liberal Preserve -- I live in an affluent and extremely white area north of Dallas.

I doubt it will be really competitive in 2012 (look for the margin to be in the single digits, though), but it could realistically be in play by 2016, 2020 at the latest.

e3323 said...

Just noticed Nate's map that has Texas blue has Washington state red. For this scenario to happen Obama would have to campaign non-stop in Texas while constantly threatening to nuke Washington state. I mean freaking MIKE DUKAKIS won washington state.

Also Obama did better in washington than Oregon....so thats another reason Nate's map is off.

Tobias said...

Ahh its good to see maps again. 9 times out of 10 posts with a map will have me entertained for hours.

Mike in Maryland said...

Indiana has quite a long history of Hispanics. In the late 1950s, one of my brother's friends and classmates was an immigrant from Mexico. At the time, we lived in DeKalb County, about as North East in the state as you can get.

Many of the Hispanics in Indiana now (or rather, used to) work in the recreational vehicle industry centered East and South East of South Bend, extending through or into Elkhart, LaGrange, Kosciusko and Noble counties. Because of the collapse of the recreational vehicle industry, there now is, and will continue to be, a rather large exodus of many of the Hispanics from Indiana, some to other states, and some back to their country of origin.

I suspect that an 'Operation Gringo' would be fairly effective in Indiana. However, except for the Hispanics, the counties mentioned above are very GOOPer leaning already, especially Kosciusko, the most GOOPer-voting county in the state, and it has held that rank for most, if not all, of the last 100 years.

Kosciusko is not all that small of a county either, with a population estimated at about 75,000. In 2008, Kosciusko gave McCain 67.99% of its votes, Obama just 30.65%. Obama's per cent of the vote was the highest of any Democratic candidate in Kosciusko since Jimmy Carter's 33.1% in 1976. Even LBJ, while winning Indiana by more than 12 percentage points in 1964, still lost Kosciusko County to Goldwater by a 54.1% to 45.2% margin.

Elkhart County has an estimated 180,000 population. In 2008, it gave McCain 55.13% of its votes, Obama just 43.94.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Nosimplehiway said...

Well, that last map, even with Texas is not that totally impossible in 2012 if three things happen in some alternate Twilight Zone of American politics:

1. Inflation of petroleum prices and protectionism on foreign oil seriously revs up Texas' oil economy, moving many more young people than projected out of the Rust Belt into the Sun Belt. Simultaneously, a Texas boom will draw many more Latinos from the south. A Dem controlled congress passes a Reagan style amnesty, just in time for 2012. Disaffected by closed plants, the Rust Belt votes against Obama, but the newly young and Latino Texas electorate just barely squeeks out an Obama victory.

2. Obama opens up Cuba. Young Cuban Americans are gleeful, and a new wave of Cuban immigrants starts pouring into Florida. With Miami money invested in Cuba, it quickly becomes a situation like China, communists marching in Prada boots. La Isla de Juventad gets a WalMart and a Banana Republic opens on el Malecon. Republicans fail to see the humor in that, of course.

3. The Republicans run an economically liberal, but socially conservative candidate, sort of the exact opposite of a libertarian. Mike Huckabee, if he came out for programs for displaced workers and poor people (all in the name of Christian charity) but took a hard line on God, Guns and Gays might fit the bill. A running mate from the rust belt or one of the hard to flip states, like Maine or Washington, would help.

That said, this is a highly unlikely scenario, maybe somewhere between a thousand to one and a million to one, but worth looking at because weirder things have happened. And, remember that a third party or independent candidacy (Ron Paul? Virgil Bernero? Dennis Kucinich?) can throw all the projections out the window (cf 1992).

Dale said...

Republicans "...do not seem particularly inclined to curry favor with Hispanic voters by playing nice on Sonia Sotomayor,..."

Newt is throwing around the racist card. Your comment seems to be just as bad as Newt's. Sounds like you are saying that Hispanics don't care about whether she is qualified, but only that she is Hispanic and therefore will throw support behind the party that "plays nice."

Are you saying Hispanics are not capable of making sound, rational decisions based on the merits of the case, but instead only follow one of their own? Do you think that Hispanics all have to be of the same political mind, that Hispanics aren't capable of independent thought?

Matt said...

Dale: I have yet to see a coherent conservative argument about her qualifications. All I've heard are personal attacks and hearsay.

She doesn't seem to be the most qualified or brilliant federal judge out there, and I'd prefer someone significantly more liberal (Preferably someone who foams at the mouth at the mere idea of Proposition Eight, based on the equal protection clause), but she doesn't sound incompetent or incapable of the job.

Jason Henriksen said...

Dale! Calm Down! He's just making a thought experiment.

Personally, I hope there's a massive effort to convert TX. I'm not down there any more, but from living in Dallas I agree that it's possible, especially if Obama continues to be successful without pissing off the military.

A blue TX would make the republicans basically cease to exist.

Steve said...

You're trying to trick them into trying this, aren't you?

Tyson said...

This is very interesting but a bit unwieldy. Could you summarize things with a table or something showing how much of an improvement in vote share across the board (not including Hispanics) Republicans would need to win if they lost some percentage of the Hispanic vote in order to get to 270? For example, if the Republicans have no Hispanic votes, they would need to increase their vote share nationwide (excluding Hispanics) by, say, 8 percentage points to get to 270. And then maybe show a map of what that would like. Then, if the Republicans have 20% of the Hispanic votes, they would need to increase their vote share by, say, 6 percentage points to get to 270. And maybe a map of what that would look like. That would really show the trade-off of losing Hispanic votes versus picking up non-Hispanic votes.

It would be even cooler if you could try to predict which states would see a boost in vote share as a result of a xenophobic/anti-Hispanic platform.

Jose said...

No commentator below or above me seems to get the point. Mr.Silver's electoral map works under the assumption that republicans magically win every state that does not have a sizable Hispanic population.

Mike in Maryland said...

Dale said...
Republicans "...do not seem particularly inclined to curry favor with Hispanic voters by playing nice on Sonia Sotomayor,..."

Newt is throwing around the racist card. Your comment seems to be just as bad as Newt's. Sounds like you are saying that Hispanics don't care about whether she is qualified, but only that she is Hispanic and therefore will throw support behind the party that "plays nice."

Are you saying Hispanics are not capable of making sound, rational decisions based on the merits of the case


'Playing nice' has a connotation of actually bringing up legitimate points. Newt and the rest of the GOOPer screech machine are throwing out noise without any basis of fact to back up their noise.

So yes, "Hispanics [ARE] capable of making sound, rational decisions based on the merits of the case", and ARE capable of seeing the lack of veracity in the attacks coming from the GOOPer screech machine. If (not when, but IF) the GOOPers actually find something that makes nominee Sotomayor unqualified for the SCOTUS, you will see Hispanics not back her. The probability of the GOOPers finding something that serious, though, is probably about as great as the papacy leading the Catholic Church away from Marianology within the next decade. IOW - little to no probability.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Steve said...

Jose,

That's kind of what I was going for.

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that this could work. A strategy designed to build a nearly all white coalition by pissing on minorities, is more likely to have the opposite effect.

Mho said...

O.k. It may work , but change the the name to:"Operation Gringo Pendejo" Haaaaaaa.

Un old Chicano-for sure!

Cas said...

I'm trying to come up with a scenario that has the Republicans winning my home state of Washington and it's just not happening. The kind of socially conservative economically liberal candidate that might be able to pull off Operation Gringo nationally would be poison in Washington state. The Huckabee contingent would be big but not big enough to win, and having a more socially liberal VP wouldn't help unless it was someone local. The thing is, our statewide Republican Party is a mess. It's got one statewide official of any prominence--Attorney General Rob McKenna, who may very well be our next governor. But he'd be running for that position in 2012, and doesn't have a national profile. As far as members of Congress go, none have made much of a mark and only Dave Reichert has shown any appeal across party lines. He's just not VP material, though he's the one guy who could deliver the state. But he's probably going to be too busy defending his own seat for the third time to think about higher aspirations.

Now, a libertarianish Republican at the top of the national ticket might be able to pull it off, particularly if paired with a local VP selection. But that's really into fantasy land given Ron Paul's numbers, the lack of any more viable alternative, and the factors already mentioned.

Texas going for the Democrats actually makes some sense. It won't happen (until at least 2016) but you can paint a plausible picture of how it would happen under an anti-immigrant/"alienate the Hispanics" campaign. Washington flipping is a far more remote prospect.

judas_priest said...

Michael @ 5:41
The issue is not whether most Americans can name a Supreme Court Justice; it is whether Hispanics know that Obama has nominated an Hispanic to the Court who has all the credentials necessary to qualify.Assuming the answer is yes, obstructionist opposition attacks will be perceived as "We don't want no spics on our Supreme Court! (Sorry about the use of the term, but it's necessary)

Not only that, be even if Hispanics can not name her nor any other Justice (and she will be confirmed) the word will get out, and with the anti-immigrant tone previously chanted by many Republicans, it will seal the Hispanic vote for the Dems.

WV=holypens = sacred writings

Marcus said...

Very good post Nate, one of your best of the year. I mean, you really made some streches though, Snowe on the ticket... a pro choicer on the GOP ticket, let's get real. Maine just isn't happening. Texas is possible in 2020 (or even 2016 if Obama has a good presidency). If we get Texas, it's game over for the GOP. The GOP will fall before that though, or split, the moderates will become libertarians and the Limbaughs and Palin's will keep the GOP title.

KeithInCanada said...

Republican leaders are acting s though they could sacrifice the "sane vote" and still win the Whitehouse.

Greg F said...

I agree with Baxter. While this map/scenario certainly are interesting, Baxter's suggestion is more grounded in fact, which is more 538's style.

a said...

I'm not sure this would necessarily work out for them.

Support for comprehensive immigration reform, for instance, it at an all time high (per cbs/nytimes, ABC/WaPo, Gallup polls).

Democrats and liberals have finally embraced the cause of immigration as part of their agenda.

I don't see how being anti-hispanic can possibly get them into the white house.

DSM said...

I just don't see this happening. Republicans need to be MORE inculsive, and that's just not happening with Gingrich and Limbaugh running the show. Also, people like Obama, and if some of his policies work, then I just don't see the GOP taking back the White House. This identity crisis of theirs will probably last for awhile, and I wouldn't be surprised at 12-16 years of a Dem White House.

Carl Nyberg said...

The GOP can try to blame Latinos and the Community Re-investment Act for the economy.

But Democrats will come back and blame bankers (while taking their money) and lax regulation by the Bush administration.

Republicans can run against NAFTA and economic globalization, but that will alienate a whole bunch of money and some infrastructure (Cato, AEI, etc.).

Appealing to anti-Latino bigotry has some chance of working for the presidential candidate in the 2012 or 2016 election, but I question whether Kyl, McCain, Cornyn, Hutchison, etc. will sign-on to go the way of Pete Wilson and the California GOP.

Ambi Valent said...

"Operation Gringo" is doomed from the beginning (which doesn't mean the GOP won't do it anyway, just out of spite). Try "Operation Latino" instead, with Huckabee running on a multiracial populist, social conservative platform.

GDunn said...

Talk about mental gymnastics! This was an interesting waste of time.

Why not have an article based on who will win the Super Bowl in 2012 or 2016 based on "potential" draft picks, trades, etc.

Much ado about nothing.

Susan said...

No one seems to be discussing the effect on the Republicans that attacking Sotomayor's judgement/background might have in turning off women voters (of all races) in 2012. Isn't this is a much larger voting group than Hispanics or men of all races??
Given some of the right-wing comments about her qualifications, I can tell you that it continues to mystify me as to how Republican politicians can expect successful businesswomen or female entrepreneurs to vote for them in 2012 if they put down Sotomayor's successful life story.

I expect a backlash against the conservatives from some of those former Hillary supporters.

judesedit said...

Nate, you're good at this stuff and I know I'm not as smart as you and these other bloggers, but from what I've seen, the Republicans will say whatever it takes to win and laugh about our gullibility as soon as they turn around. If the democrats can keep debunking the untruths and spot-lighting the sleazy tactics of hypocritical republicans, I think they will hold their ground. I know as soon as I hear the fear mongering and sound bites that are half truths at best coming from the right, I send more money to the DNC. I hope they keep talking. I'd wager there are others like me out there. What are the odds when you include that factor?

banditapu said...

Excellent point Susan, I think this post is definitely one of Nate's shallowest as he considers "all other factors being equal" when he cranks up or down the Hispanic vote. In reality you couldn't realistically trade the Hispanic vote for that much leverage in other states, not to mention other cross tabs like women or moderate whites who are turned off by immigrant bashing and the like. It also ignore the inherent popularity of Obama as an incumbent president (maybe the economy has tanked?).

someperson718 said...

Obama is going to put the entire weight of his campaign strength behind flipping texas. Like Indiana,North Carolina and Virginia before it Obama will fight there like noone's business. Watch, he totally plans on flipping Texas NOW.

Yellowbird said...

I live in Washington state and we are DEFINATELY BLUE.

Jeff said...

Which party is it, exactly, that is obsessed with race and all of the manifold ways it can be used to divide the American people? The Democrats. The GOP does not oppose Sodomayor because she is Hispanic; they should not support her for that reason either. The Dems certainly didn't cowtow to political correctness with Thomas or Estrada. (Indeed, Thomas was openly denounced as an "Uncle Tom" by leading liberals.) The GOP's problem is that the White House and its media friends will spin GOP opposition to Sodomayor as anti-Hispanic. Its shameless really, and enormously condescending to Hispanics. Typical of the Dems, however, who tend to treat minority voters like the kitchen help. I wonder how long this strategy will work: appealing to minority fears (remember Obama's disgusting ads on Spanish language radio), while delivering them absolute nada. A Supreme court nominee isn't going to paper that over.

andy r said...

poor karl rove.

his original plan was to shore up the hispanic vote for the republicans.

the anti immigration conservatives kind of blow that for him.

btw --- if they were truly anti immigration they would crack down on businesses that hire illegal aliens.

Jeff said...

By the way, can someone on this site give me a substantive issue on which the GOP can be fairly called "anti-Hispanic", or "anti-immigration"? The contested issue seems to be illegal immigration, and whether we will stop it, or enable it. It has long been clear that the Dems are willing to countenance illegal immigration because they see Hispanics as their demographic mealticket. Their calculation there is purely self-interested, and contemptuous of our laws. But to construe the sides of the illegal immigration debate as "pro" and "anti" Hispanic is Orwellian.

Andrew Jackson said...

This is definitely the wrong strategy for Republicans, so keep encouraging them to try it!

On a more serious note, imagine what the GOP could do with an Hispanic Catholic religious populist at the top of the ticket. This is probably the most competitive strategy for them in 2012 or 2016: keep the social conservative issues, lighten up on labor and embrace some protectionism to win back at least part of the Rust Belt, and rush to the left on immigration. Such a candidate could really make Obama sweat in 2012, especially if the economy is still in the tank. If Obama gets re-elected, which he probably will, a GOP candidate like I described would be favored in 2016 against most Democratic opponents. The question is, does the GOP have anyone to fill this role for the foreseeable future?

L33tminion said...

You know you're thinking out-there scenarios when you have Texas going blue.

mikelow1885 said...

So a Lou Dobbs Republican, maybe he could run for President--and since he's from Texas, he would
hold the state for the GOP.

Actually Huckabee comes closest to fitting the doubling down on whites strategy.

juvanya said...

So basically they need to accept that America wants socialism?

J.L.A.B. said...

This post is the reason why I read this blog.

Hayford Peirce said...

People, especially all you people who are hacking away at Nate for one reason or another, particularly the "implausibility" of any of this happening: haven't you ever heard of, or understood what was meant by, the phrase he used at the very beginning:

THOUGHT EXPERIMENT

Go look up that phrase, study it for a moment, then come back and read Nate's article again.

THEN post your comments (or delete your earlier ones)....

Peter Keeler said...

Somehow, this whole article reminds me of a web game I got linked to a few months ago: Battleground States 2008 (http://www.bumarcade.com/battleground-states-2008/game.html) Or various wouldn't-it-be-weird-if scenarios on the various flash-based electoral vote calculators - an exercise in rationalization rather than rationality (and those can be fun). No, this one seems ludicrously unlikely to actually play out. But it's still entertaining.

e3323 said...

OFF TOPIC:

From Public Policy Polling (conducted: 5/14-18/09)

Barack Obama 53%, Newt Gingrich 36%.
Barack Obama 52%, Mike Huckabee 39%.
Barack Obama 56%, Sarah Palin 37%. Barack Obama 53%, Mitt Romney 35%.

Obama's best match-up is against Palin (beating her by a 19 point margin)....his worst is against Huckabee (still beating him by 13 points)

Before anyone says anything YES I know hillary used to be ahead by 20 points in the dem primary and a lot can happen. But that was different because voters were not too familiar with Obama (he didnt not have name recognition per se but voters did not know much about him). However voters are quite familiar with Palin, Romney, Gingrich etc. It is not likely too many people's opinions will change about them. In other words someone who doesnt like palin or gingrich by now is very unlikely to suddenly start liking them in 2012.

2012 is a long ways a way but the way I see it unless something catastrophic happens I cant see Obama losing.

Linden said...

Wait a minute... What about Nevada? Surely Nevada should be somewhere in the middle to upper-middle of this list.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

It would appear that by the hour Obama's pick of Sotomayer has been brilliant as usual. He is daring them to put the nails into their own coffins. Checkmate!

Bungee said...

Washington State? Please. lol

J. E Jansen said...

I love it when Nate does his scenarios. I feel like I'm watching a predictive and political form of sportscenter.

champion88 said...

"You could also go further and index the decrease in Latino support to the increase in white support in order to illustrate the difficult arithmetic at play in this analysis."


I agree. I would like to see this.

champion88 said...

"Do people truly believe that the republicans fighting this nomination would mean that hispanics will not vote for them. What percentage of people who will vote are actually aware of the nomination and will care in 4 years?"


I agree. I mean it would be racist to not vote for someone just because someone criticizes you.

Why can no one face it thast everyone is STILL racist?


Just because the judge is Hispanic, does not mean she should be immune to criticism.

champion88 said...

"p.s. I'm a native Texan, and my observations have long led me to believe that the state is a lot closer to being "in play" than almost anyone out there realizes. And, no, I don't live in Austin, our state's officially designated Liberal Preserve -- I live in an affluent and extremely white area north of Dallas.

I doubt it will be really competitive in 2012 (look for the margin to be in the single digits, though), but it could realistically be in play by 2016, 2020 at the latest."


I think people need to realize that the +5-+10 boost for Obama being black will go away in the next election, because the novelty will be gone and people by then will realize that he is not the savior of the universe.


I am sure Obama will have screwed up by then in, at least, one major way.

champion88 said...

"Newt is throwing around the racist card. Your comment seems to be just as bad as Newt's. Sounds like you are saying that Hispanics don't care about whether she is qualified, but only that she is Hispanic and therefore will throw support behind the party that "plays nice."

Are you saying Hispanics are not capable of making sound, rational decisions based on the merits of the case, but instead only follow one of their own? Do you think that Hispanics all have to be of the same political mind, that Hispanics aren't capable of independent thought?"


That is what all the black people did with Obama though.

I strongly hope this comment is not true though

champion88 said...

"It would be even cooler if you could try to predict which states would see a boost in vote share as a result of a xenophobic/anti-Hispanic platform."


Why is a platform anti-Hispanic JUST because the party does not like a Hispanic candidate?

Seems like a double standard there.

champion88 said...

"Michael @ 5:41
The issue is not whether most Americans can name a Supreme Court Justice; it is whether Hispanics know that Obama has nominated an Hispanic to the Court who has all the credentials necessary to qualify.Assuming the answer is yes, obstructionist opposition attacks will be perceived as "We don't want no spics on our Supreme Court! (Sorry about the use of the term, but it's necessary)

Not only that, be even if Hispanics can not name her nor any other Justice (and she will be confirmed) the word will get out, and with the anti-immigrant tone previously chanted by many Republicans, it will seal the Hispanic vote for the Dems."


Or maybe the reason the Republicans do not like her is because she is a democrat?

And there are tons of people who do not even watch the news, so even if "word got out," people will not necessarily know and probably will not remember in 3 years.

champion88 said...

"I just don't see this happening. Republicans need to be MORE inculsive, and that's just not happening with Gingrich and Limbaugh running the show. Also, people like Obama, and if some of his policies work, then I just don't see the GOP taking back the White House. This identity crisis of theirs will probably last for awhile, and I wouldn't be surprised at 12-16 years of a Dem White House."


Except Obama's policy of spending tons of money to reduce deficits, while cutting taxes, is impossible.

champion88 said...

"Talk about mental gymnastics! This was an interesting waste of time.

Why not have an article based on who will win the Super Bowl in 2012 or 2016 based on "potential" draft picks, trades, etc.

Much ado about nothing."


You are wrong. There is a national election every four years, yet there is a Super Bowl every year.

Moreover, we are already 6 months past the last election or about 1/8 of the way there, so this situation is equivalent to predicting 2010 Superbowl winners in mid March.


Still a bit early, but certainly not a waste of time.

champion88 said...

"No one seems to be discussing the effect on the Republicans that attacking Sotomayor's judgement/background might have in turning off women voters (of all races) in 2012. Isn't this is a much larger voting group than Hispanics or men of all races??
Given some of the right-wing comments about her qualifications, I can tell you that it continues to mystify me as to how Republican politicians can expect successful businesswomen or female entrepreneurs to vote for them in 2012 if they put down Sotomayor's successful life story.

I expect a backlash against the conservatives from some of those former Hillary supporters."


I really hate when if someone has a tough life story, they automatically get an advantage than someone with a smoother one.

Someone should not be penalized for coming from a loving family.


Moreover, Cardinal Spellman is a really dumb high school. Winning valedictorian there is equivalent to earning a higher grade on a trigonometric identities test, when competing with an average 8th grader.

champion88 said...

"Nate, you're good at this stuff and I know I'm not as smart as you and these other bloggers, but from what I've seen, the Republicans will say whatever it takes to win and laugh about our gullibility as soon as they turn around. If the democrats can keep debunking the untruths and spot-lighting the sleazy tactics of hypocritical republicans, I think they will hold their ground. I know as soon as I hear the fear mongering and sound bites that are half truths at best coming from the right, I send more money to the DNC. I hope they keep talking. I'd wager there are others like me out there. What are the odds when you include that factor?"


The practices of people who read political science blogs cannot be expected to bleed into the general population.

champion88 said...

"Excellent point Susan, I think this post is definitely one of Nate's shallowest as he considers "all other factors being equal" when he cranks up or down the Hispanic vote. In reality you couldn't realistically trade the Hispanic vote for that much leverage in other states, not to mention other cross tabs like women or moderate whites who are turned off by immigrant bashing and the like. It also ignore the inherent popularity of Obama as an incumbent president (maybe the economy has tanked?)."


I think the immigrant bashing the Republicans do is about ILLEGAL immigrants, of which anyone should be vehemently opposed.

And Obama will be popular, assuming the situation is slightly better than in 2008, among the 53% that voted for him in 2008.

However, that is not anywhere near enough votes to be content in winning, especially when the "we are making history!" votes wither away this time around.

champion88 said...

"Obama is going to put the entire weight of his campaign strength behind flipping texas. Like Indiana,North Carolina and Virginia before it Obama will fight there like noone's business. Watch, he totally plans on flipping Texas NOW."


If he even tries that, then Indiana, North Carolina, Ohio, Florida, and Virginia all flip back red.

And he may not even suceed in flipping Texas.

champion88 said...

"btw --- if they were truly anti immigration they would crack down on businesses that hire illegal aliens."


Why don't they then? That seems like common sense to me,

champion88 said...

"So basically they need to accept that America wants socialism?"


They don't though.

If what Nate is saying is true, then all of America is still just as racist as ever.


I cannot understand why if a white man liking another white man just because he is white is racist, but if a Hispanic man likes another Hispanic man just because he is Hispanic, then that is perfectly OK?

champion88 said...

"However voters are quite familiar with Palin, Romney, Gingrich etc. It is not likely too many people's opinions will change about them. In other words someone who doesnt like palin or gingrich by now is very unlikely to suddenly start liking them in 2012."


Voters are definitely NOT quite familiar with Romney or Gingrich or really Palin either.

Palin is very similar to Obama, in that she was unknown, had some growing pains, but is immensely popular.

The difference is that Obama's growing pains came in the Iowa primary, Palin's growing pains came on national TV with 6 weeks to go until election time.


Also, people will probably vote against Obama, just like they voted against the ghost of Bush in 2008.

Or Obama will lose the race on his own actions. Many people agree that McCain lost the election, moreso than Obama winning it.

NRH said...

"Palin is very similar to Obama, in that she was unknown, had some growing pains, but is immensely popular."

Okay, that made me laugh. Her popularity is down to 54% even in her home state and her national popularity is about 39%. Independents and Democrats have seen enough of her buffoonery; Rushbots can't get enough. I certainly hope she's a major figure for the Republicans for a long, long time, because that means Democrats will be staying in power that long.

I do hope that 'Champion88' is a reference to, say, the 1988 NFL or MLB champions or Bush I's presidential race, rather than the white supremacist symbol '88'. Charitably assuming it is accidental, still a combination with rather unpleasant associations.

Mike in Maryland said...

Looks like someone accidently left open the gate at the lunatic asylum sometime between midnight and 12:30 am, and one of the 'guests' wandered away.

Hopefully they've now recaptured the 'guest', as the torrent of posts by that 'guest' stopped at 1:14 am.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

champion88 said...

"Looks like someone accidently left open the gate at the lunatic asylum sometime between midnight and 12:30 am, and one of the 'guests' wandered away.

Hopefully they've now recaptured the 'guest', as the torrent of posts by that 'guest' stopped at 1:14 am.

Mike in Maryland"


Why do you call me a lunatic?

I stopped posting, because I stopped reading/responding to all of the posts.

champion88 said...

"Okay, that made me laugh. Her popularity is down to 54% even in her home state and her national popularity is about 39%. Independents and Democrats have seen enough of her buffoonery; Rushbots can't get enough. I certainly hope she's a major figure for the Republicans for a long, long time, because that means Democrats will be staying in power that long."


I thought Nate's last post on governors of large states is that they tend to be lower, more in the mid 50s. So that is not so terrible.


I said they were similar in the fact that they were both new politicians on the scene and they both had to learn on the job, but Obama's where made where far fewer people were watching.

That would help account for the disparity in your poll numbers.

For if Palin had been experienced or Obama was making major mistakes in September, McCain would have won the election and no one would care about Obama right now.


Besides, those numbers are high, because the novelty of Obama has not worn off yet. It surely will by 2012.

Michael said...

"I thought Nate's last post on governors of large states is that they tend to be lower, more in the mid 50s. So that is not so terrible."

Except that Alaska is a small state by the criteria Nate used - population, which happens to be the only one that makes any sense.

Furthermore, Alaska is not only a small state, it is a small state where the government gives money to the people, instead of taking it with taxes.

champion88 said...

Oh I thought he used land area for his criteria.

Anyway, why would Palin's numbers randomly fluctuate downwards like that?

Mike in Maryland said...

champion88 said...
Why do you call me a lunatic?

Maybe because of comments such as "Besides, those numbers are high, because the novelty of Obama has not worn off yet. It surely will by 2012."

President Obama's high poll numbers right now are NOT the result of a 'novelty' factor.

Keep up that thinking pattern, and you'll help drive the GOOPers into total oblivion.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

champion88 said...

The "novelty" factor is the thought process of having a black president as making history.

But once actual problems start happening, people will start bashing him once again.


The Air Force One joke is an example of Obama's intelligence. Realize he only went to a good college because he was black.

In fact, pretty much all the advantages Obama has, is because he is black.


But why are Republicans hated on this site so much for?

Nichlemn said...

For those that scoff at the combination of states that Nate has posted, consider previous swings over time (look at the 1976 presidential map). Ford won a number of states that later Democrats have since carried by wide margins, and conversely for Carter. Some currently solid blue states today could easily favour the Republicans in 20 years (unless of course you take the wishful thinking perspective of a permanent Democratic majority).

nova_middle_man said...

Mike in Maryland is a leftwing hack just ignore him

Pot Kettle Black said...

Uhm, one problem.
There are portions of the Republican party (like GWB) who want to OPEN immigration further with guest worker programs and the like. This portion tends to be the well moneyed portion of the party. The industrialists, the economists and the internationalists. The religious folks, the one issue voters and the folks who carried Obama Monkeys to the rallies in Western PA, they are the ones who don't have a lot of money to give and are afraid of the Killer Bees, Anacondas and anything else brown coming from Latin America.

While it's fun to play with numbers, and say, "An Op Gringo candidate will win all of McCain's states, plus plus plus," it's hard to see where the money to run that would come from, and hard to see how that'd play, exactly.

You can't exactly ditch the Romney portion of the party, since, by and large, they pay the bills.

If this is the best idea they can come up with, I'm looking forward to the 2016 Dem primary to see who will take over for Obama.

Chris said...

Haha, interesting analysis Nate, but I think Wisconsin would rather be dead than red with Dane County + the minority population of inner-city Milwaukee, PLUS the massive student population of Milwaukee.

Jesse said...

"In fact, pretty much all the advantages Obama has, is because he is black.

But why are Republicans hated on this site so much for?"

This is a joke, right?

mvymvy said...

The 2012 election could not be run using current state-by-state winner-take-all rules. Every vote in every state could be politically relevant. And, every vote could be equal. We should have a national popular vote for President in which the White House goes to the candidate who gets the most popular votes in all 50 states.

The National Popular Vote bill would guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC). The bill would take effect only when enacted, in identical form, by states possessing a majority of the electoral vote -- that is, enough electoral votes to elect a President (270 of 538). When the bill comes into effect, all the electoral votes from those states would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).

Because of state-by-state enacted rules for winner-take-all awarding of their electoral votes, recent candidates with limited funds have concentrated their attention on a handful of closely divided "battleground" states. In 2004 two-thirds of the visits and money were focused in just six states; 88% on 9 states, and 99% of the money went to just 16 states. Two-thirds of the states and people have been merely spectators to the presidential election.

Another shortcoming of the current system is that a candidate can win the Presidency without winning the most popular votes nationwide.

The National Popular Vote bill has passed 28 state legislative chambers, including one house in Arkansas, Connecticut, Maine, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, and Oregon, and both houses in California, Colorado, Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington. The bill has been enacted by Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, and Washington. These five states possess 61 electoral votes -- 23% of the 270 necessary to bring the law into effect.

See http://www.NationalPopularVote.com

Johnkel24 said...

A couple of posters here asked why being against illegal immigration would be viewed as being racist against hispanics. The answer is that such a stance would not be viewed as racist if presented in a coherent, rational plan without secondary commentary from the peanut gallery. You see the problem lies in how that plan is rolled out and commented on by those in support of it. It's the supportive voices that turn the whole argument into a giant racist rant. Go to a McCain Presidential campaign rally in 2008 and hear the candidate say something about illegal immigration. Then see and hear the rally attendees start hooting and hollering stuff that would make your father blush about hispanics. It's not the message itself. It's the supposedly supportive fools who hijack it and turn it into a vehicle to open the door to saying racist comments. Basically the GOP and its supporters are their own worst enemies in those situations. When the news shows those grass roots Republicans saying ignorant, bigotted remarks it dooms their arguments.

Johnkel24 said...

As for the comments about Obama losing his "novelty" by 2012, those views show a basic ignorance of the American electorate.

Sure Obama being an African American helped him increase his votes in the black community in 2008, but conversely it hurt him amongst racist whites. So the "novelty" effect was not quite a net wash, but it certainly wasn't decisive because of the combination of both positive and negative effects.

The main reason Obama won a decisive victory in 2008 was that he ran a really good campaign. His organization was incredibly professional and efficient, getting out the vote in a way that even Karl Rove was impressed by. History books will probably talk about the 2008 Obama campaign organization as a model that other politicians should follow for mobilizing and effectively engaging grass roots support.

Second of all, let's not forget what Obama presented as his message to the American people. He presented an intelligent, thoughtful, and rational plan for governance. Contrast that with the confusing, constantly changing messages of the McCain campaign along with the blundering nature of some aspects of the outgoing GOP administration, and you have a winning message from the Democratic nominee that the American people could understand and accept.

Rather than some "fluke" or "novelty", Obama won the 2008 election because his rational and consistent message was delivered by an incredibly efficient campaign organization. If you think that in 2012, that campaign advantage is going to disappear than you're going to be in for a very rude shock. In addition, if Obama is even halfway successful without causing any major disasters in his first term, he will coast to an easy victory as an incumbent candidate no matter what "novelty" he was presumed to have in the first election.

Zia said...

Obama, with his increasingly centrist tone, will lose his most fervent supporters. So all those razor thin victories will go away if he can't go back to his base.

Johnkel24 said...

Zia,
Did fervent liberals abandon Bill Clinton for being a centrist in 2 elections?
The logic of your statement fails on the point that there is no rational alternative. An arch liberal is not going to vote for a Republican, and after the Nader debacle in 2000 and 2004 liberals have realized that its far more preferrable to vote for a centrist than throw their vote away on a fringe candidate and hand the White House to a conservative.

Anandakos said...

@Jeff,

Dude, your spelling comes straight from your Id. You seem to think Her Honor is a lesbian: "Sodomayor". I though that was just gay guys.

And I see you've picked up on Krikorian's "Anglo pronunciation only" Jihad: the word is "kowtow", and it comes (GASP!) from Godless CHINA!

Michelle said...

Re: Arizona

Arizona was not terribly competitive in 2008, but there is a good reason for that: it was John McCain's home state.

The other dynamic with AZ in the 2008 election was that the Obama campaign itself encouraged Obama supporters to focus attention on other states (most notably in my memory, NM).

It was only at the very very end when AZ started to get very close that we were encouraged to focus locally. Before that, the Obama supporters energy was strongly focused, by the campaign itself, on other states.

And as a side note: the combination of AZ state dynamics (the nasty big white elephant of Maricopa county, no offense to elephants) and focus of Obama supporters elsewhere PLUS the Obama admin's removal of our Democratic governor has left this state in scary wingnut tatters.

Napolitano was replaced by the Rebublican secretary of State, Jan Brewer, and our state legistalture is still strongly dominated by right wing nuts mostly (but not entirely) from Maricopa county, and things are .... bad here.

This is, in my opinion, a state that should be ripe for the picking for Democrats. But actual attention and organizing would be necessary. I don't know where that would come from. The state Democratic party may or may not be up to the task. From what I have seen, it has been NOT up to the task in the recent past, but maybe that will change.

But it seems to me that it will not go Democratic if the Democratic Party neglects it, as happened in 2008. Which may have been only because of the home state thing you mention. But the right-wing-nuttery here, bolstered by the loss of Janet Napolitano and non-elected imposition of a Republican governor to succeed her, might give the impression that AZ is more red than it could be.

I guess we'll see.

John said...

Nate - I like the post. As a young Republican in law school, I've thought about the future of the Republican party. Unlike the media, Karl Rove, Mel Martinez, etc., I believe the future of the Republican party is NOT pandering to Hispanics or other ethnic groups. I have nothing against Hispanics, which is a label attached to vastly different groups of people. But Hispanics will NEVER in large numbers vote for Republicans, as most are low-income, and contrary to popular belief, Hispanics are NOT especially socially conservative (unlike blacks). Republicans' best strategy is to gain higher amounts of the white vote. Obama is really playing into their hands, IF the Republicans ever get smart. Obama is moderate appearing but is, perhaps unsurprisingly, obsessed with race and in providing spoils to his political cronies. White men must be noticing his lack of white male advisors (yes, Napolitano looks like a man, but technically she's a woman). His BLACK attorney general just threw out charges against the BLACK panthers who intimidated voters in Philly. For now, it appears that many white males, while recognizing their country slipping away, are in a "Wait and see" approach.

But that approach will not last forever. Word will probably slowly seep out. The immigration debate will be big. Amnesty was shot down by the people a few years ago. Will it be again? This may be the Republicans' moment of truth. Illegal immigration creates huge costs for us as a country, and lowers our productivity and IQ, while increasing our crime rate. It doesn't make me a "racist" to say so.

So here's how it's gonna go down. Not in 2012 really, but in 2016 and beyond, Republicans will need to win more white votes and be the anti-illegal immigration party. They'll need to be fiscally conservative, and yes, possibly more protectionist. On social issues, the Scarborough strategy works - be federalist and let states deal with it (although they will be pro-life, they won't emphasize this in California and New Jersey). They'll need to start opposing affirmative action as well. Republicans will need most evangelicals, and Catholics, and I believe, will get higher percentages of Jews. (It amazed me that so many Jews supported a Farrakhan-supported, Muslim-raised question mark.)

http://www.nypost.com/seven/03132009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/team_obamas_anti_israel_turn_159276.htm?page=2

Republicans may need to give up on NV, NM and CO. TX and AZ are at least 10 years away from becoming dangerous in my opinion. These are the states to watch in my opinion:

FL - Republicans can't lose Florida and win elections. They need to keep the Cubans. Somehow.

NC - Getting more liberal but still leaning Republican in a better environment.

OH - ground zero in elections. The new populism probably works here.

VA - may be a problem for Republicans for some time. It may even be leaning Democrat. Reps need to do better among suburbanites and create policy initiatives to this extent.

PA - my home state. To win it, Republicans probably need to be more populist economically and maybe more pro-union without pissing off suburbanites. I think it can happen, and in the distant future, this state may be THE key to elections.

MN - seems to be less reflexively liberal than before. Republicans need to win this one in the future.

IA - If Minnesota turns GOP, maybe Iowa follows suit. Very white state.

NH - Shame how this state has turned. However, Republicans still exist here. Fiscal conservatism is the key.

MA - yes, you read this correctly. Massachusetts. I think this could be a very long term project. A Rasmussem poll had Obama's approval at only 58 here. Deval Patrick is not popular. I have family here, middle class Catholics who could be won over with a populist, slightly nativist platform. Wouldn't be shocked if Republicans do better in 2012 than in 2008.

We will always have a two-party system. The Republican party will adapt. The only question is how.

champion88 said...

"The 2012 election could not be run using current state-by-state winner-take-all rules. Every vote in every state could be politically relevant. And, every vote could be equal. We should have a national popular vote for President in which the White House goes to the candidate who gets the most popular votes in all 50 states.

The National Popular Vote bill would guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC). The bill would take effect only when enacted, in identical form, by states possessing a majority of the electoral vote -- that is, enough electoral votes to elect a President (270 of 538). When the bill comes into effect, all the electoral votes from those states would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).

Because of state-by-state enacted rules for winner-take-all awarding of their electoral votes, recent candidates with limited funds have concentrated their attention on a handful of closely divided "battleground" states. In 2004 two-thirds of the visits and money were focused in just six states; 88% on 9 states, and 99% of the money went to just 16 states. Two-thirds of the states and people have been merely spectators to the presidential election.

Another shortcoming of the current system is that a candidate can win the Presidency without winning the most popular votes nationwide.

The National Popular Vote bill has passed 28 state legislative chambers, including one house in Arkansas, Connecticut, Maine, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, and Oregon, and both houses in California, Colorado, Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington. The bill has been enacted by Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, and Washington. These five states possess 61 electoral votes -- 23% of the 270 necessary to bring the law into effect.

See http://www.NationalPopularVote.com"


You DO realize that the Electoral College is what exaggerated Obama's win, right?

I mean 365-173 looks a lot more comfortable than 52-46.

champion88 said...

"A couple of posters here asked why being against illegal immigration would be viewed as being racist against hispanics. The answer is that such a stance would not be viewed as racist if presented in a coherent, rational plan without secondary commentary from the peanut gallery. You see the problem lies in how that plan is rolled out and commented on by those in support of it. It's the supportive voices that turn the whole argument into a giant racist rant. Go to a McCain Presidential campaign rally in 2008 and hear the candidate say something about illegal immigration. Then see and hear the rally attendees start hooting and hollering stuff that would make your father blush about hispanics. It's not the message itself. It's the supposedly supportive fools who hijack it and turn it into a vehicle to open the door to saying racist comments. Basically the GOP and its supporters are their own worst enemies in those situations. When the news shows those grass roots Republicans saying ignorant, bigotted remarks it dooms their arguments."


But every party has its own crazy weirdos. Why do these 0.1% carry the whole theme for the party?

It should be what the candidates themselves say; not what a guy at a rally says.

champion88 said...

"As for the comments about Obama losing his "novelty" by 2012, those views show a basic ignorance of the American electorate.

Sure Obama being an African American helped him increase his votes in the black community in 2008, but conversely it hurt him amongst racist whites. So the "novelty" effect was not quite a net wash, but it certainly wasn't decisive because of the combination of both positive and negative effects.

The main reason Obama won a decisive victory in 2008 was that he ran a really good campaign. His organization was incredibly professional and efficient, getting out the vote in a way that even Karl Rove was impressed by. History books will probably talk about the 2008 Obama campaign organization as a model that other politicians should follow for mobilizing and effectively engaging grass roots support.

Second of all, let's not forget what Obama presented as his message to the American people. He presented an intelligent, thoughtful, and rational plan for governance. Contrast that with the confusing, constantly changing messages of the McCain campaign along with the blundering nature of some aspects of the outgoing GOP administration, and you have a winning message from the Democratic nominee that the American people could understand and accept.

Rather than some "fluke" or "novelty", Obama won the 2008 election because his rational and consistent message was delivered by an incredibly efficient campaign organization. If you think that in 2012, that campaign advantage is going to disappear than you're going to be in for a very rude shock. In addition, if Obama is even halfway successful without causing any major disasters in his first term, he will coast to an easy victory as an incumbent candidate no matter what "novelty" he was presumed to have in the first election."


But Obama being an African American increased the young vote because they wanted to be part of "history" in electing the first black president. Which means that the youth vote will probably return back to normal levels in 2012.

I do agree that Obama ran a great campaign and I do agree that McCain's advisers butchered his campaign.

I think if McCain had consistently attacked Obama from the start, that he would have buried him early and Obama's late surge would not have been enough. And if McCain had not attacked Obama at all, then he would not have lost voters later on in the election season.

However, Obama's plan of "cutting taxes, increasing spending, but still reducing the deficit" is logically impossible, so I cannot see how that plan is rational. All he is doing is racking up the deficits for the next president to take the blame for.


In short, Obama had the "perfect storm" of advantages and yet only won by 3%. Coupled with the fact that some of those advantages, like the youth vote, him not being perfect (it is likely SOMETHING bad will happen during the term,) the Republicans getting a better handle on how to utilize internet technology for grassroot support, and it not being a historical election anymore, all point to Obama losing, at least, some of his support.


If all those factors even add up to a loss of 3%, then the election will be competitive at worst and successful at best, for the Republicans, especially since the reapportioning causes the Republicans to gain 7 more Elecotral votes.

champion88 said...

"Obama, with his increasingly centrist tone, will lose his most fervent supporters. So all those razor thin victories will go away if he can't go back to his base."


Obama is tilting more liberal as time goes on, which will make him lose ground amongst the moderates.

Carlos said...

Interesting article but what i noticed that alot of commenters fail to realize is that Hispanic/Latino is a very made up term created by Nixon to create a new voting block. For one "Hispanics" are racially diverse but the media ignores that and like alot Americans assume being "Hispanic" means having brown skin which is not the case. Mel Martinez is a white Cuban who traces his ancestry frome the Castille province in Spain. How he is considered a ethnic minority is beyond me as he is just as white as Newt Gingrich. I believe in the next 20 years the whole Hispanic/Latino census catergory will be remade. There are white,black,mestizo(Spanish/Indigenous),mullato(Spanish/black),trigueno(mixture of all three) and grouping a people based on what language they speak is as idiotic as saying African-Americans and white Americans are the same ethnicity because they both speak English. Cubans in Florida vote Republican because 1.The Bay of Pigs fiasco which they blame on JFK and 2. They were part of the 1959 exodus who fled Castro because of redistribution
of wealth. Look at the Cubans in Miami and look at the Cubans in Havanna. Whats the difference. The majority of Cubans in Miami are the wealthy white elite and the ones in Havanna are poor blacks/mulattos who consist the majority of the island. Republican fear mongers of the "Hispanic takeover" to white rural voters are making enemies of potential white "Hispanic" voters and are pretty giving away the black,mullato,mestizo "Hispanic" voters to the Democrats just like LBJ gave up the South for a unified national African-American voting block with the Civil Rights Act. Republicans once again are there own worst enemy. In the future playing racial politics is going to get rather murky as a growing and already significant Afican-American/Puerto-Rican/young Cuban/Afro-Cuban/Dominican block on the east coast has expanded inwards to the South and Midwest. Remember alot Puerto Ricans have some African ancestry as well as Dominicans,1979 arrival Cubans,Brazilians,northern Colombians,Venezuelans,Panamanians. If black politicians can unite the emerging new "Hispanic" block as one the Democratic Party could be in power for a very long time. Oh I quoted "Hispanic" because it means of Spainard descent which alot of Latin Americans are not unless there white.

Dopper said...

Some points:

First, notice how Republicans and conservatives always call addressing minority concerns "pandering". This is the type of language that turns off minorities. Several conservative poster have talked about addressing white working class concerns on immigration, trade, yet haven't used the word pander. So pandering is only addressing white people concerns. Wow all us in my family who served in the military or worked and pay taxes, and if I exercise my !st amendment right to petition the government and they respond it's pandering.

Now as to the point of Hispanics (or blacks) supporting a Latino and why that isn't racist, let me draw an analogy. If BEFORE you saw Larry Bird, or Tiger Woods you said "they only get hyped because they are white (in Larry's case) or black (sort of in Tiger's case)" that isn't necessarily racist. Politically incorrect but not racists. But if you still said that AFTER you saw them play that is racist. That is denying actual EVIDENCE to support your views. So when conservatives attack a Latina with impeccable academic credentials, more experience then any nominee in 70 years, this is not a factual attack. If they said "she is too liberal" that is fine, but to say "she is not smart", "socially promoted (affirmative action) in college", ect. This is what leaves the "odder" of racism. Conversely if Latinos supported a candidate with week credentials "just because" they wanted a "representative" of their race on the court you would have a case. But since she is eminently qualified that isn't racism. Hell we all no Alito and Roberts were only chosen because the GOP is the party of white men and Bush was trying to pander (that was snark).

Furthermore, I find it sad that so many conservatives can't come to term that people voted for Obama because they agreed with him. Just because you don;t doesn't mean a majority of people think like you do. Bush won in 2004 because people agreed with him even though I didn't. The fact that so many republicans still think it's superficial (they liked voting for the Black guy) is the MAJOR reason they won't win in 2012. They won't moderate because they think he won on "being the black guy". Ike won by coming to grip with the New Deal's social security being popular, Clinton excepted Reagan's tough on crime stance. Today Democrats looked at God, Guns, and Gays, and decided they had to give up on one (Guns), and stand tall on the others, and they became viable again. The GOP's current mix of stand isn't a majority.

@John Upping the white vote share isn't going to work. It will be 2.5% less in 2012. College grads react negatively to white populism and they are increasing as a share of voters. The GOP is losing ground amongst Jews (there are no more Jewish Republicans in the Senate and only 1(2?) in the house). Palin is more scary to Jews then Obama will ever be (FL started tacking to Obama as soon as he was nominated during her boomlet). Jews will never support a white populist movement, something about a bad run in with fascism in the past. Getting more Evangelicals is funny how much higher can you get? Catholics are a swing group. Yes in theory you could pump up these numbers for the GOP, but it's not like Democrats don't have a deep bench of Catholics to fight every step of the way. Going more "white" and keeping Cubans didn't work in 1996 and won't work EVER. Elian Gonzales was the main reason so many Cubans defected back to the GOP in 2000 (estimates are 100,000). Try it again (Buchanan's culture was speech) and with population growth your talking 150,000 flippers.

Paul said...

Nate, one thing you overlooked is that when states gain electoral votes through the Census, the number of electoral votes needed to win the election will also increase.

John said...

Dopper, you have some good points. It won't be easy to do a "white populist" strategy and win. Nate's map with Republicans getting Maine and losing Arizona is a long way away, let alone talking about winning Washington. His first and second group of pickups, up to Minnesota, is conceivable in the near future. What do FL, NC, OH, PA, MN, VA all have in common? One thing seems to be a large amount of suburbanites. I agree that Republicans CANNOT win again unless they increase their share of the white, college-educated suburbanites. This needs to be job #1. Like the Democrats did, the Republicans need to start competing in EVERY state. They need to run people in NY, NJ, CA, MA, CT, etc. White suburban families and inner-city blacks and Puerto Ricans is not a natural coalition in my opinion - at some point it will crack. I will admit I do NOT understand why so many smarter voters have turned to Democrats. To me, the Democrats are corrupt, dishonest, and beholden to gays, feminists and minorities. But they have packaged themselves better, obviously. Messaging is so big, as well as getting the right candidates.

Republicans need to keep their Palin/Joe the Plumber wing, while getting suburbanites back. Suburban Philly is crucial. They NEED to stop losing that area big. If they stop the bleeding there, that can make NJ competitive as well, because its suburbs are similar. As I said, I believe PA is the key to future elections, especially if Texas and/or Arizona get tougher.

For this, Republicans need new ideas, targeted to the suburbs and quality of life issues. They need to play down the social issues in suburban Philly and New York (the Scarborough strategy), while playing them up in the South. You are correct that a "racist" strategy turns off these voters. For me, a gringo strategy will be much more subtle, without any blatant racism. I welcome minorities to the party. But Republicans need to understand that for all intensive purposes, they ARE the white party, and they do need to increase this share to win. Let's be real here. As the minority share increases, and whites become fewer and fewer, they will probably vote more as a bloc naturally. Obama, by providing obvious spoils to minorities and feminists, will eventually turn some whites off. And to me, it is a little insulting to Hispanics that they are so impressionable that all you have to do is vote for illegal alien amnesty and they will come. Republicans should not, by any means, attack minorities. The pro-white strategy will be what Reagan and Bush I did - "law and order", "states' rights", etc. Add on "protecting the border". White educated families in the suburbs don't want our country importing millions of unskilled Mexicans any more than rural people do. "Smarter" people should understand that a combination of (1) lowering our national IQ and (2) more elderly for workers to support, is not a good combo for our future. The college educated voted strong Republican 20 years ago, and there's no reason they can't again.

Formally diverse, but against affirmative action, illegal immigration, and increasing debt. Possibly more support for unions (but they can't lose Wall Street). And nominating more intellectual candidates to appeal to the educated. Play up social issues in Ohio and not in New Jersey. This is the strategy. Yes, Jews turned off Palin by a lot. I do believe without her, McCain wins Florida. I don't get Jews. Anti-Semitism is much stronger on the left than on the right - it was evident on Obama's own message boards! Daily kos commenters talking about "Gassing Lieberman." Where is that on the right anymore? John McCain is extremely pro-Israel. W was the best friend Israel ever had. While a Muslim-raised, Farrakhan supported President opposes Israel's right to defend itself. Jews - what else do you need? You voted for a man supported by 90% of Muslims. It will take time, but many Jews will eventually get it.

Gadfly said...

Wrong answer, Nate, except in the technical sense that the GOP could theoretically win with less Hispanic support than in 2008 if, say, we have a real depression, Obama is found having sex with a donkey in the White House, or something like that.

In the real world, though? Wrong anwer, as I blogged earlier this week about how the Sotomayor choice could well help Obama in 2012:
http://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2009/05/politically-potent-sotomayor-choice.html

Not only do NM/CO/NV all become easier Obama wins, Hispanic support + no McCain makes AZ more competitive. Even if Obama can't win, the GOP has to waste resources.

It's even arguable that Texas moves to becoming "semi-competitive." Anyway, that's all at my blog post:
http://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2009/05/politically-potent-sotomayor-choice.html

Second, Obama doesn't even need a shift in Hispanic voting percentage. All he needs to do is hold on to the same percentage he had in 2008 with a larger turnout; if Sotomayor does that for him, that's enough.

As for Andrew’s “approximate uniform swing,” in his post, Hispanics aren’t uniformly distributed, so that comment’s just a non sequitur.

Gadfly said...

Also, Nate, some your pro-GOP hypothetical arguments are just specious.

The GOP "trumping Obama on NAFTA" in Ohio? Puhleeze. Just because The One, Just.Another.Politician., has been shown to be a liar on NAFTA doesn't mean the GOP has any more than a snowball's chance in hell of pulling that one off.

Lynn said...

Conservative spokesnuts are not just alienating Hispanics with their senseless and uncivil remarks about Sotomayor. They are alienating women. Their commentary is not just thinly-veiled or open racism, it is sexist, too. I wonder how that will add to their electoral charm.

John said...

Lynn, I'm sure you were just as up in arms when ruthless, pathetic Democratic Senators made Sam Alito's wife cry in the hallway, or savaged Robert Bork with the most disgusting false accusations. Or when Obama used the term "lipstick on a pig" to attack Sarah Palin.

Of course, one of the main attack dogs on Alito and Bork was Ted Kennedy, who has actually killed a woman in a drunk driving accident. Oh, but he votes for unfettered abortions, so he's pro-woman.

Anna said...

Jeff, the GOP is seen as very anti-Hispanic here in Southern California because NEITHER party really wants to enforce immigration law but how the GOP PRETENDS to is by rounding up Latinos and harassing them while making sure the big corporations who hire Latinos do not get fined. The corps get to benefit from very cheap labor with bad conditions while all the burdens are paid by those workers. They just hire different illegals if the ones they have are deported.

Anna said...

John, your new white suburbanites are as turned off by the Sotomayor attack as the Latinos are. I am in one of the most Pro-Prop 8 and McCain areas in the state of CA. Very white, hates illegal immigration, religion split between evangelicals and Mormons. But they hate the racist talk and Liddy's menstruation talk pissed off many a white evangelical McCain supporting woman in my neighborhood. They can't name any other Supreme Court justices and don't know who exactly said it, but they heard about those comments and were turned off of Republicans because they know it was a Republican. A couple of creative ads quoting these guys, especially on Spanish-language stations and everyone will remember even if they don't normally pay attention.

Ethan said...

Hey Tobias, another mapoholic here!

Yes, it's nice to see 2012 maps -- however fanciful!

Memo to the GOP: Just look at CA to understand the longevity of the memories of the Latinos!

Second memo to the GOP: By spiralling in to the core of the base, any further splintering of that base -- say the political vs. the social conservatives and the rest of the party would spiral out of control.

Ethan said...

Wish I had more time to respond to John.

You obviously live in a bygone world. With the internet, and modern communications it is now IMPOSSIBLE to run a campaign one way in one area of the country and another in another. Maybe on the ground, and maybe by local surrogates, but as Allen found out, you never know who's watching!

As for the Jews, I can't speak for all of 'em, but I can say that every time a politician utters the word "Jesus" the Jews I know gasp collectively and in unison. Yes, Israel is important, but secularism is critical. After all, that's why they're over here, not over there.

chgoblue said...

"I will admit I do NOT understand why so many smarter voters have turned to Democrats. To me, the Democrats are corrupt, dishonest, and beholden to gays, feminists and minorities. But they have packaged themselves better, obviously. Messaging is so big, as well as getting the right candidates."

Are you serious with this comment? The Democrats are corrupt? After 8 years of George Bush's abysmal leadership? What is the total number of of people from his administration that have now been convicted of felonies? Something like 8 or 9?

FYI, in case you are new to this, every political party is "beholden" to certain groups. The Dems have their supporters as does the GOP. The republicans are "beholden" to big business, the oil companies, the god squad, and the racists (to name a few).

You cannot figure out why the more educated and intelligent people in this country voted for a man who presented himself clearly, with articulate plans to effectively address the mess that has been created by the GOP versus the hate filled, angry, nonsensical babbling of Palin and boring monotony of McCain? News flash, the GOP has NO NEW IDEAS! They present the same tired ranting, "cut taxes for the rich" "decrease regulation" "outlaw abortion" "ban gay marriage" "create wars wherever we can" "keep the illegals out" etc etc.

Unfortunately, many people failed to see the idiocy of this approach in George W. That, coupled with the sociopathy of Dick Cheney means that Obama and company have quite a bit of work to do to restore what this country actually stands for. The GOP is old, out of touch, and does not appeal to the suburban, college educated voters as it did in previous elections because they are NOT BUYING WHAT YOU ARE SELLING. You will never get those voters back with Rush, Newt and Sarah as your spokespeople but best of luck!

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