5.31.2009

On Moon Landings, Michelle Malkin, P-Values, the Clintons, and the Magical Mystery Dealergate Conspiracy Theory

On Wednesday, we ran an item about the hypothesis, put forward by certain conservative blogs, that the Obama administration was systematically more likely to close Chrysler dealerships whose owners are significant contributers to Republican political candidates. As we noted, it's absolutely true that the owners of the closed dealerships donated disproportionately to Republicans. However, as one could have learned through a few minutes of searching through FEC disclosure records, this characteristic was not unique to the owners of the closed car dealerships. Rather, auto dealers in general, whether or not their dealerships had been closed, donate disproportionately to Republican candidates -- as one might reasonably expect from a group of (mostly) wealthy, older men in suburban areas.

This morning, Marla Singer at the blog Zero Hedge provided a more sophisticated take on the subject. Instead of comparing the list of closed dealerships to the entire universe of car dealers, Singer instead went through the trouble of looking up campaign finance data for the Chrysler dealers who had been allowed to remain open, as well as those who had their businesses closed. She then ran a series of regression analyses based on this data, which produced the following results:



The key thing to look at is this table are the P-values, which are the probabilities of the outcome s occurring due to chance alone. When social scientists look at P-values in order to test the validity of a hypothesis, they are generally looking for a figure of .05 or lower, meaning there is no more than a 1 in 20 chance that an outcome could have occurred due to pure randomness. That is, they want there to be at least a 95 percent chance of the hypothesis being true.

There is a lot of debate in academic circles, which I mostly won't bore you with now, about whether the choice of 95 percent is the "right" number for tests of statistical significance. The choice of a statistical significance threshold may depend on the particular application as well as things like Bayesian priors. It's important to emphasize that no statistical analysis exists in a vacuum. There are times -- such as when I'm building a predictive model rather than trying to evaluate the "truth" behind a particular hypothesis -- when I'll include a variable even if its statistical significance is less than 95 percent. There are other times, such as when a hypothesis lacks a clear explanatory mechanism, and/or conflicts with other evidence, when I'll treat even a 95 percent positive finding quite skeptically, and would want a statistical significance threshold of 99 percent or even higher. But for better or for worse, the 95 percent threshold represents the default; if someone claims that something is "statistically significant", you can assume that they are referring to the 95 percent threshold unless they state otherwise. And if they claim that something is "highly" statistically significant, they are usually referring to a 99 percent likelihood of a positive finding or greater.

As you can see from Singer's data set, while there are some intriguing relationships in the data, none of them are particuarly close to statistically significant using the 95 percent test. The nearest "hit" is that for Hillary Clinton donors, who -- Singer found -- were slightly more likely to have their dealerships remain open. However, the associated p-value of .125 for the Clinton dealers does not imply statistical significance at the 95 percent or even the 90 percent level.

In spite of this, Singer reports that "there [is] a significant and highly positive correlation between dealer survival and Clinton donors". Although she hedges her conclusion a bit later on, this is a fairly irresponsible sentence to have written. Most people, in looking at this same exact set of data, would not only have avoided the implication that it proves the dealergate hypothesis, but would probably have come to something of the opposite conclusion: it argues strongly against the dealergate hypothesis. After all, there is no positive relationship whatsoever in the data on Democratic, Republican, Obama or McCain donations -- which until Singer's analysis was posted approximately 10 hours ago -- had been the focus of the dealergate hypothesis. In fact, in several cases -- such as for the data on Republican donations -- the coefficient has the opposite sign of the one that the purveyors of the dealergate hypothesis were hoping for. Republican donors were incrementally less, rather than more likely likely to have their dealerships shuttered, according to Singer's analysis, although the pattern is nowhere in the ballpark of being "statistically significant" as most of us would define it.

Predictably, this has not prevented people like Michelle Malkin and Doug Ross from claiming that Singer's data confirms their hypothesis. Of course, it does not confirm their original hypothesis, which was that donors to Republican candidates were more likely to have their dealership closed. Instead, a new hypothesis has evolved -- it's all about those dirty, rotten Clintons! -- the sole reed of evidence for which is Singer's overstated conclusion (but not really her underlying data itself).

Whenever you see a Magically Mystery Hypothesis like this one -- one which constantly transforms itself to fit the (lack of) available evidence -- you should be skpetical. Suppose I wanted to prove that some people are skilled at a game of chance like roulette. At the Bellagio in Las Vegas on a busy Friday evening, there are -- I don't know -- probably something like 300 people playing roulette at any given time. If I tracked their performance over the course of the evening, I would find that some of them were doing improbably well -- there would be "evidence" that about 15 of them were in fact "skilled" roulette players at a 95 percent degree of confidence. I'd also find that about 15 of them were "coolers" -- that they were doing worse than one might expect through chance alone.

Would I claim that these results are evidence that roulette is in fact a game of skill? I would certainly hope not. Instead, I'd find that the same people who were "skilled" at roulette one night were, as a group, doing no better than the average player the next night (unless they were cheating).

The way this data is being used is almost the same. Singer ran six sets of regression analysis: one each for Obama, McCain, Clinton, Democratic and Republican donors, and another for those dealers who had made no political contributions at all. She was therefore testing six hypotheses. If these hypothesis were independent from one another (which, to be clear, in this case they aren't), the odds that at least one of the six would return a p-value of .125 or lower are better than 50:50! Not only are false positives possible -- they are practically inevitable, particularly if you test enough hypotheses and tolerate a low enough threshold for statistical significance.

Why, after all, stop at Clinton donors, who until this morning had never been central to the dealergate hypothesis? Why not look at John Edwards donors, or Ron Paul donors, or donations to any of various political action committees, or donations to members of the Senate Banking Committee, or donations to Congressmen who voted for the auto bailout plan? If you looked at enough of these, you would eventually come up with a few positive results -- and then you could work backward to formulate your own conspiracy theory around it. There is a name for this sort of practice: data dredging.

At the end of the day, people are going to believe what they want to believe: some people believe that the moon landing was faked, that 9/11 was a grand conspiracy, and that Barack Obama was born in Indonesia. There is no evidence for any of these claims, but that doesn't stop tens of millions of people from believing them! Dealergate, particularly in its original formulation (that Obama was punishing Republican donors with the Chrysler closings), is in largely the same category.

81 comments

Ian Monroe said...

I seem to remember in stat class some technique to help counter this issue of false positives when looking at many different comparisons at the same time. It would essentially raise the bar on a valid comparison. But I guess there's no point in even bringing that up when its not even hitting 95%. She's being dishonest on a couple of levels.

Jesse said...

It's a pretty scientifically irresponsible test too--like putting different ingredients for different kinds of cake in separate pans, putting them in the oven and then saying "see? What everyone ever thought the right cake ingredients are was wrong!"

Even so, what stands out to me is that the P column for McCain donors is over .8, meaning that it's only 20% likely that dealerships owned by donors to the McCain campaign are being intentionally or systematically closed or allowed to remain open. Another problem with this is that it's Chrysler's front office's decision which dealerships to close, or who to tell to figure out which dealerships to close; the President isn't even tangentially involved, and if anything it would just show that Chrysler isn't as in-bed with the GOP as they may have believed if they had actually found the statistical data they're looking for.

Instead they've just shown that if you pull a marble from a paper bag with 70 red marbles and 30 blue marbles, you're more likely to grab a red marble than a blue one. I could have told them that ten years ago when I was in 4th grade.

Juris said...

Nicely done, Nate. Data dredging is no better than running a large number of regression analysis on what are essentially random numbers. Five percent of the time you're going to find a "statistically significant" result with random numbers.

That's one reason why social scientists test hypotheses drawn from theory or prior expectations; they don't just collect a bunch of data and keep analyzing them until they find something "significant."

One "technical" comment aside from this is that given that the hypotheses in this case involved an expectation that the results would run in a particular direction (toward GOP supporters being more likely to be axed), it would be appropriate to use a 1-tailed test, which is equivalent (in the standard statistical programs) so using a p-value of .10 rather than .05.

Another technical comment is also worth emphasis: even finding a "statistically significant" (i.e., non-random) difference does not say anything about its magnitude. It can be highly "significant" (not likely to have occurred by chance) yet a very small difference.

Noah said...

Great post Nate. I really hate it when authors of statistical analyses overblow their findings with faulty conclusions like Singer does. As it is these spurious sentences that the media and conspiracy theorists latch on to.

This occurs all the time particularly in epidemiological studies. The media grab hold of them and the public get taken for a ride. That's why I believe a statistics courses, which can explain things like P-values, should be mandatory in schools

Mike in Maryland said...

Relax, Nate.

When Keith had a report on this poppycock, right-wing conspiracy, he mentioned that you found 88% of auto dealers gave to the GOOPers, but also stated (paraphrasing) 'Another [unnamed] blogger found a 92% correlation between being an auto dealer and contributing to the GOOPers.'

YouTube clip at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2elRWRedeQ

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

GROG said...

It's hilarious when Mike in Maryland says "GOOPers" instead of GOP. See, GOOPer looks a lot like GOP, but GOOP has some sort of negative connotation. Funny stuff.

Then when he says things like Lush Rimbaugh, it just puts me in stitches.

directorblue said...

Couple of things you may want to add to the equation:


* More than 100 dealerships owned by African-Americans were originally slated to be closed by Chrysler (their statement). After the government takeover, only 35 are being closed. In Detroit, it looks like Hispanics and GOP contributors may have taken the brunt.

* Starting with 40 dealerships owned by four prominent dealer groups (major Democrat donors all), these groups ended up with 42 dealerships -- more, not less. One of these groups is in all sorts of financial and legal jeopardy including having vehicles repossessed off of his lots (reportedly) by GM. Yet he survived the cuts!

* These maps of one such dealer group helps illustrate how the process worked to benefit the Dem contributors. The visual aids make the process more striking.

Now, all that said: wouldn't some of the Obama's vaunted transparency help here?

Monday morning, more news on diversity and dealerships.

Opus 132 said...

OT

Tomorrow is the day that Coleman and Franken's lawyers make their oral arguments before the Minnesota Supremes!

Hopefully,there will be a quick decision (the Supremes have had the written arguments and rebuttals for a few weeks) which would include a directive to Pawlenty to sign the certification.

THERE WILL BE LIVE VIDEO COVERAGE AT 9:00AM (CT) AT:

http://theuptake.org/

Tyler said...

Awesome as always, Nate.

WV: nomete - The state of a statistical analysis when it's revealed that it's just a bare-bones effort to find something to gripe about.

Dan said...

@Ian Monroe - there are several methods to deal with this statistically. The most conservative method is using the bonferroni correction, which simply divides (α/n). In this case α=0.05, n=6...so to be "statistically significant" the clinton result would need to be less than 0.0083.

Since these tests aren't independent (their results are correlated), the bonferroni is probably overly conservative. There are more complicated ways to deal with this (FWER, Permutation...)

Regardless, the multiple testing the investigator did should add further skepitism to the results.

directorblue said...

One other thing that obscures the Zero Hedge results: the dealer database assigned one owner to each dealer. But some dealers, like RLJ, are owned by multiple parties.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/05/dealergate-statistical-evidence-that.html

RLJ's owners "are Steve Landers (long-time car dealer, 4th-generation dealer), Thomas "Mack" McLarty (former Chief of Staff for President Clinton), and Robert Johnson (founder of Black Entertainment Television and co-owner of the NBA's Charlotte Bobcats)... McLarty campaigned for Obama in 2008, and Johnson has given countless amounts of money to Democrats over the years."

I do not believe the ZeroHedge analysis accounted for any of these situations. Johnson's name does not appear on any of the files, yet he is a co-owner and a huge contributor to Obama and the Democratic Party.

The ZeroHedge simply used the first owner listed in the file and went from there.

That hides significant contributions from the likes of Robert Johnson.

markymark said...

*sighs at director blue*

Even after Nate has squashed the conspiracy idea still people decide something must be up. It's interesting that they include Clinton at all, I would hope the Secratary of state would have more on her plate than ensuring car dealerships aren't closed. And odd that a President would reward those who contributed to another campaign.

Of course detailed statistical analysis won't stop the rights paranoia. I do just find it a touch depressing that some continue to play petty political games like this one, rather than actually discussing policy and how to move forward.

Clark said...

If one runs the numbers in enough ways, using factors irrelevant as well as relevant, one could probably "figure out" that Michael O'Hare is the Zodiac killer and start trying to communicate with him via coded late-night phone calls.

capt said...

However - the whole idea is moot, Chrysler decided which dealers to close and which dealers stay.

Run an analysis of their (Chrysler exec's) contributions? Maybe their club memberships or country clubs could define meaningful data sets?

Shane said...

Various things addressed at Nate, Juris and Dan.

First, Nate, I wouldn't have said the thing about leaving in variables with p-values greater than 0.05 in predictive models. Yes, you can do those models with the same software/regressions that hypothesis testing is done with, but they're different animals totally. That, and in predictive models, it can be (determined through an F test) that a group of variables is significant even though individually they aren't. The test done here with the auto dealerships is quite a simple (set of) regression(s).

@Juris, you're 100% right about using a one-tailed test, given the hypothesis.

@Dan, you're also right about using a Bonferroni correction (or something similar). Whatever used there would be 'perfect' if the hypothesis were made before the data examined.

General comments: But--as Nate sort of alluded to--this is testing the data after it's already been gathered and examined. Personally, I think a 3-4 sigma result (p-stat around 0.01 for a two tailed test) would be required for me to believe it (at a 5% level, say). The reason is as Nate said--if you gather enough trials, by definition you're bound to find some outside the 95% bounds...strangely enough, about 5% of the time :).

Opus 132 said...

@ directorblue

So what are you saying? That Obama or his people compiled the list of dealerships to be closed and directed the Chrysler people to implement it?

If so,do you have any proof? If not,peddle your poison elsewhere!

directorblue said...

@ Opus132 *sigh* is right. Have you not read any of the source posts linked by Nate?

...it seems clear that something is going on here. Specifically, the somewhat low probability that the Clinton data showing higher survivability of Clinton donors could result just from pure chance...

...Then we got to thinking. Steven Rattner, the Car Czar, is married to Maureen White, one-time national finance chairman of the Democratic National Committee. What does Maureen do now? From her website: "Maureen White is currently Chairman of the Board of Overseers of The International Rescue Committee (IRC), a member of the North American Advisory Board for the London School of Economics, and a National Finance Chair of the Hillary Clinton for President Campaign.


But I'm sure it's all just a coincidence.

For purportedly open-minded quant types, you're doing everything in your power to ignore overwhelming evidence of the politicization of the dealership closings.

The serious analysis has only just begun.

There will be some interesting revelations in the coming week regarding which dealerships closed in Detroit -- and why.

Again, I'll ask: wouldn't the Obama administration's vaunted transparency promise cover some sort of explanation of the process?

Or do you not care about the answers to the following questions that the Chrysler dealers themselves are asking, like:

* Why was the DealMakers auto group protected from closing despite its teetering on the precipice of financial and legal collapse?

* Why were African-American-owned dealer groups protected far more than expected based upon Chrysler's pre-takeover statements, but Hispanic-owned dealerships shuttered at a startling clip?

I thought quant types would actually take the trouble to read some of the analyses, look at the GIS data I've provided, etc., but I guess partisanship trumps data here.

Ah well, it will all come out in court, so you can continue bouncing your tennis balls back and forth here in the echo chamber.

christo said...

"That is, they want there to be at least a 95 percent chance of the hypothesis being true." Bzzzt. Wrong. A p-value of .05 has nothing to do with the probability of the hypothesis being true. It is the probability that this data would occur by chance under the assumption that the null hypothesis is true. That is, they want there to be no more than a 5% chance that this data could occur if nothing of "significance" were at work.

Chris Green
Professor of Psychology
(and long-time teacher of stats)
York University
Toronto, ON

P.S. Of course the conspiracy theory is BS.

E-Dub said...

Directorblue:

Quick of question for the guy with all the answers. Why would the Obama Administration go out of its way to protect Clinton contributors, while failing to shield his own contributors. That part doesn't make any sense to me. Further, shouldn't you present some compelling evidence in favor of this conspiracy theory before requiring other's to disprove your theory? When you make allegations like this, the burden of persuasion falls on you. Tangential evidence (such as referencing three dealers in isolated markets) isn't enough to support an allegation of this magnitude. But hey, if you just believe enough I guess the facts don't really matter anyway. And I know you desperately want to believe.

Mike in Maryland said...

directorblue,

Let's compare the origins of Popes who reigned between 1523 and 1978. That's a span of 455 years, and should give us definitive information, shouldn't it?

All were born in what is now Italy.

Ergo!

We can definitely conclude that ALL Popes were born in what is now Italy, can't we?

Idiot - you don't select a data set based on certain criteria it meets for a limited portion of the data set that will yield the result you want - you take the data set and analyze the information as presented within the entire data set.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Michael (mbw) said...

Thanks for this post. There's a lot of statistical ignorance out there, and it's good to see this blog used to address it. I hope we see more like this.

However, I have to second Christo's "bzzzt" catching a very common deep error. Looks like Nate briefly forgot his priors.

loomisnews said...

I have a much simpler and easier analysis of such complicated conspiracy theories.

If it's a Reich-wing attack, you know its idiotic.

It's even simpler (though mroe limited) than Occam's Razor.

And this hasn't been wrong yet.

Now, back to our regular program of racism and misogyny from the No/Nothing Party.



MORANS

Jon said...

cristo is right. said another way, when we can, we reject the null hypothesis; we don't accept anything.

Joe Maxwell said...

Nate, your conclusions seem correct, but your explanation of p-values is not, for two reasons. What a p-value tells you is NOT the likelihood of the outcome "occurring due to chance alone." A p value of .05 tells you that, IF THERE WERE no difference in the proportion of closures between the two groups (in this case, Chrysler dealers who did and did not donate to Clinton), in the total population of dealers, your SAMPLE would show a difference this large or larger due to sampling error (i.e., chance) alone less that 5% of the time. This sounds like what you said, but it's actually quite different. Most importantly, a p value of .05 does NOT tell you that there's "at least a 95 percent chance of the hypothesis being true." It tells you NOTHING about the likelihood that your hypothesis is true; it tells you only how likely it WOULD BE that your result is due to sampling error IF there really is no difference. As the statistician Jacob Cohen stated, the probability of being wrong in rejecting the null hypothesis is what we want to know, and we so much want to know this that we believe that a significance test tells us this even though it doesn’t.

The second point, which is really more important in this case, is that a p value is NOT a valid measure of the SIZE of the difference between the two groups, because it's influenced not only by the size of the difference, but by the sample size. A large difference may not be statistically significant if the sample is small, and a trivially small one may be significant if the sample is large. (A previous post from Juris also pointed this out.) For this reason, virtually all statisticians now say you should always report the SIZE of the difference along with the p value. This is a bit difficult to calculate from SInger's regression table; I want to know the actual number of closures & non-closures for dealers who did and did not contribute to the Clinton campaign (& ideally, a regression analysis on the dollar amount of the contribution). I hope Andrew Gelman weighs in on this one, since I think that Red State, Blue State is a model for how to analyze this sort of problem.

Tyler said...

Another excellent reply to this easily debunked statistical garbage can be found here.

WV: nonschit - the opposite of the zero hedge post (wow, WV is just begging for this)

Mark Grebner said...

Nate's point is correct, and he's analyzed the data correctly. But as Christo and Maxwell have already pointed out, his discussion of statistics is hit-or-miss.

A deeper statistical point is that this data is NOT from a sample, but from the entire UNIVERSE of the phenomenon. The application of statistical techniques to such a collection of data is fine for illustrative purposes, but it isn't likely to meet the preconditions imposed by statistical theory. In particular, there is no reason to believe the error terms would be independent - in fact it's almost certain that they are NOT independent. For example, if closings were partly decided by specific decision rules which take geography, dollar volume, or multiple-brand-dealerships into account, the calculated confidence intervals will be too narrow.

It's fine to look at the parameter values and even the p-values, but it would be good practice to acknowledge they aren't strictly justified.

Drew Miller said...

This is an excellent post and America is better for your making it. Kudos. Also I know whenever I write this it sounds sarcastic. I am not being sarcastic.

harold said...

directorblue -


Do you seriously think that anyone believes that you are concerned about the victimization of "Hispanic car dealers"?

You really need to be careful about that kind of transparent nonsense. It's likely to turn off the very people you're trying to con.

In the first place, the ZeroHedge analysis does not suggest any statistically significant pattern, by any reasonable analysis.

In the second place, regression analysis seems like an odd choice for this problem - smells to me like someone did as many analyses as they could, and presented the one that randomly came up with the "best" results.

In the third place, if Clinton-donating dealers really were left open at a greater rate than random (which we have no evidence to suggest), there could be all sorts of non-conspiracy explanations. For example, dealers who focused on more environmentally friendly cars might have been Clinton dealers, and favored by the recession.

To summarize, I don't believe in a conspiracy, and more to the point, I don't believe the you believe in a conspiracy either.

Christopher said...

I'd be curious to see the full regression output. Already, as a social scientist, I would conclude from this analysis that w whole bunch of nothing is going on. I'm guessing that conclusion would be bolstered by seeing the r-squared value, which indicates the amount of variance in dealership closings that can be accounted for by the political contributions in the equation. You can tell from the p-values that it's going to be very low, probably only a few percent, and r-squared is itself a positivly skewed statistic (tends to overestimate explained variance). This would not be consistent with the hypothesis that closings reflect political considerations.

Ken Bloom said...

I have heard (from my professor in Artificial Intelligence) that when performing N significance tests, if you want to know that a deviation in any one of them truly is outside a 95% confidence interval, then you need to look for P-values less than 0.05/N.

I may be misstating the rule (or misremembering it), but surely you could have shared that in your post when discussing whether 95% was right or not, and when mentioning that there's a better than 50% chance of getting a 0.125 p-value randomly in this setting.

directorblue said...

@Harold: Hispanics? Google Miguel Estrada Democrat Memos Schumer Kennedy sometime and see the reasons that Democrats blocked what would have been the first Hispanic Supreme Court Justice. Yet another disgusting example of race politics on the part of the Democrats.

@Harold: this just posted article might help illustrate the point for you.

Dealergate: Zero Hedge understated 'The Clinton Effect'Excerpt:

Zero Hedge found that dealer owners who contributed to Hillary Clinton had a far-better-than-expected "survival rate" than any other set of donors.

And, oddly enough, "car czar" Steven Rattner's wife (Maureen White) is described on her own website as the "National Finance Chair of the Hillary Clinton for President Campaign".

Now, analysts will point to 90% or 95% as a "gold standard" confidence interval and the ZH data is stuck at 87%. But there's a simple reason that the Zero Hedge correlation is dramatically understated: the database of dealership owners lists only a single party in each record. But many dealerships are owned by multiple parties.

And, in some cases, those parties are billionaires who do not want their names listed as primary owners in these types of documents...

VR said...

harold: that's what I was thinking. Why would someone do regression analysis on data like this? Based on the nature of the data, I would have used something more non-parametric.

Juris said...

@Mark Grebner: Yes and no. Even when one has a universe, it is useful to conceive of the possibility that the data (observations) may have been generated by an essentially random process (or are subject to a lot of random measurement error). So it is appropriate to use significance tests even with a universe of cases.

(This is an old controversy in social science research; but I believe the predominant consensus was that it was helpful to apply tests of significance as a minimal criterion to rule out randomness in the underlying process that generated the observations.)

Josh said...

directorblue reminds me of the lunatics over at noquarterusa.net who are *STILL* talking about the Obama birth certificate "issue."

GET. A. GRIP.

Mike in Maryland said...

Sometimes there is over-analysis of a situation, or the analysis is not how the situation developed.

Chrysler did a survey of all dealers, asking and gathering various sets of data, such as:

How many dealers are in a certain geographic area? More than we think ideal? We need to shut some down.

Which ones are located in the best locations, as we define 'best location'? Maybe the slightly less profitable one at a 'better location' (as we define 'better location') stays open, and the slightly more profitable one closes.

Is there a major geographic area that has few dealers, and if we close any of them, the population of that area will have to travel dozens, or even scores of miles, to get to a dealer? Maybe we need to keep a few of those dealers open, so that those customers will have access to our products.

Does the dealer lose money on Chrysler products, and we lose also, but the dealer sells used cars, and other brands? Maybe we should drop that dealer. Maybe the dealer makes a real fat profit, but the geographic area is overstocked with Chrysler dealers, and the dealer emphasizes the Toyota cars, or the Mercedes, or the Kia, etc., and Chrysler products are just an afterthought.

Do we get a lot of complaints from customers about the after-sale service they receive at a particular dealership, but there's a slightly less profitable one 10 miles away where the customers rave about the after-sale service they receive? Even if it's profitable, maybe we need to close the dealership that causes a lot of complaints (which makes our advertising less effective in that market), and over the long haul, we (and the 'second tier' dealer) make as much or more profit than with the more profitable, 'first tier' dealer.

Etc., etc.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

pensivewombat said...

Did anyone else see a title that included "P hyphen something" "Clintons" "Moon landing" and "magical mystery tour" and assume that this post would be about George Clinton and Parliament/Funkadelic?

LAW said...

As always, awesome analysis Nate.

If I may, there is yet another confounding variable in all of this. Barriers to entry into urban markets are far higher when it comes to something like a car dealership. Land is more expensive and taxes are higher - and that's if you are lucky enough to have enough room to build a dealership in your desired area. As a result, there are far less car dealers per capita in the heavy population centers of the country.

This definitely plays into the "car dealers are generally Republican" dynamic. Of course they are! You're basically using a method of sampling that gives far too much weight to rural + exurban areas.

But at the same time, since high density (read: Democratic leaning) areas are generally underrepresented by dealers to begin with, they're less likely to lose their dealers. Basically, the fundamentals of the issue would predict a significant exurban/rural skew in closed dealerships.

Now I'm not Nate Silver, but I would present as evidence the list Huffington Post has compiled of closing dealers. Not a single large population center is represented on that list. The list of closing dealers basically rules out the areas of the country that are most likely to have Democratic leaning owners for reasons that have nothing to do with political donations. Therein lies the inherent bias.

Matthew said...

Ahh... classic Nate Silver. This is why I love this site!

Buckeye_Tom said...

I have a simple hypothesis: the Obama administration is not being transparent regarding the Chrysler deal (despite billions of tax payers involved in this process). Does anyone care to disprove this hypothesis?

Look, I'm not a stats guy, but this Nate demonstrated that he does not know what he is talking about when he claimed that his sample, taken from Huffpo (great methodological source, dude) of ALL car dealers who contributed to 2008 election candidates (not all CHRYSLER dealers) was the control group. Apparently, he hadn't considered the possibility that dealers of different brands (domestic v. foreign, union v. non-union, etc.) might not all behave the same way.

Forget the THEORIES, folks. There are thousands of taxpayers and dealers out there who are going to keep asking QUESTIONS until we know what happened. Normally, when the government spends billions of tax payer dollars on a deal, officials don't keep all the details secret. But I guess there’s one set of rules for Democrats and another for Republicans?

Obviously, when you start out with very limited access to the data, the first sets of theories are going to be stabs in the dark. But those were just shots across the bow. You better believe we're going to keep coming until we know the answers.

The odds are, there was little or no shenanigans involved in the closure list. If so, we'll be very relieved to hear that (it's typical "progressive" projection to assume that other people want bad things to happen to the country to advance partisan interests).

But, no, this story will not be hushed away.

Mike in Maryland said...

Buckeye_Tom said...
I have a simple hypothesis: the Obama administration is not being transparent regarding the Chrysler deal (despite billions of tax payers involved in this process). Does anyone care to disprove this hypothesis?

Why don't you try to prove your 'hypothesis' first, then we can try to disprove it.

That's the way science works.

After all, if you don't want to exert any effort to prove your 'hypothesis', we really don't need to disprove it. After all, if it's not provable, or the proponent doesn't want to prove it, nothing needs to be disproved for the 'hypothesis' to be considered incorrect.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

ronebofh said...

Confirmation bias... it's FAN-tastic.

Buckeye_Tom said...

Sorry, Mike, didn't realize that you are too dense to spot sarcasm. Apparently, if I tell you to disprove the "hypothesis" that Obama is a lousy bowler, you'll tell me to prove it first.

But setting aside science for a sec, let's consider: I've heard three different explanations of who made the decisions - a Pittsburgh newspaper claimed it was Fiat, a Chrysler exec said it was under pressure from the Obama administration, and Gibbs blamed Chrysler. The axed dealers and, more importantly the tax payers, do not have any idea what criteria (or model) were used to make the selections. The whole process is shrouded in mystery.

Do you think that is an appropriate way to spend billions of tax payer dollars?

Matt said...

@Buckeye_Tom:

...the first sets of theories are going to be stabs in the dark. But those were just shots across the bow.

You've proved that this is a problem that's too big for...

...for just one metaphor at a time.

(it's typical "progressive" projection to assume that other people want bad things to happen to the country to advance partisan interests).

You're right. It's just "progressive" projection, without any evidence to base it on.
Hey, what was it that Rush L. said? That he wanted Obama to fail?

Jon Borowsky said...

There's a lot of statistical sophistication above, and I don't think I can add anything about the choice of p-value.

However one question I would ask about this analysis is if there's some degree of multicolinearity in play.

When two variables in a regression are closely associated, whether negatively or positively, the coefficients are going to be driven towards zero.

McCain donors are more likely to be Republican donors (positive correlation).

McCain donors are less likely to be Obama donors (negative correlation).

To be clear, I don't think its particularly likely that the President targeted the auto dealerships of political opponents. But were there such a pattern in the data, this study is stacked heavily towards concealing that pattern.

Opus 132 said...

Re Buckeye_Tom,directorblue,GROG,etc.:

Paul Krugman said it best last week-

"..the Republican Party has been driven mad by lack of power".

Jen said...

I find it interesting that the Republicans are blaming minorities as to why certain dealers closed and some were kept open. It was just like when the banks were insolvent it was because they were forced to make bad loans to (gasp) minorities. Find a new scapegoat already; it is getting old.

To directorblue, Buckeye Tom, and all the rest of you kooks:

Feel free to run the 2010 and 2012 elections on all your psycho wingnuttery of birth certificates, Chrysler dealerships and ACORN and we will just have to see how that goes.

Jon Eric said...

Nate: This is one of the best posts I've seen on this site in a long while. Thank you for writing it.

directorblue: It seems perfectly obvious to me, looking at the visual aids you provided, that Chrysler chose to keep open dealerships closer to the center of the market in question, and chose to close ones father out from the actual city. Seems sensible to me. Last time I went car shopping, I chose the dealership a couple of exits down the Interstate, not the one three towns over.

Buckeye_Tom: Are you actually implying that Fundrace provides inaccurate data? Also, I'd like to hear you suggest a better of way of refining the auto dealer search to just Chrysler dealers.

Brian said...

The administration's transparency principle only applies to things they do, not things done by other people (specifically the auto manufacturers). I think the involvement ended at "You have to provide a path to profitability", and they chose to close dealerships, as well as which ones to close.

Every time I see arguments based on unsound reasoning, like Director Blue or Pete Kent, I just sigh in relief knowing there are no real issues to be concerned about. If the worst thing Obama's detractors have going for them is conspiracy theories, our country is in good shape.

Flip the situation around. When lefties tried to post legitimate arguments about Bush (Plame, waterboarding, Katrina, firing justices,) they did so. Sometimes they were banned, but more often they actually persuaded moderates to vote for a new party.

If you want to change my vote, you're going to have to find a real issue, not an imaginary one. Those worked fine in the era of ignorance, but without a stranglehold on the media, it won't work.

The rest of us are going to focus on the issues that matter, like the economy, avoiding mass extinction and making the world and our nation a better place to live.

markymark said...

brian is entirely correct. The problem is that Limbaugh and Beck and Hannity have whipped up the fury of the right, and they are all trying to out Kos and HuffPo Kos and HuffPo. Problem is you can't just make the story up. I have a feeling that in 8 years the Obama administration's level of incompetence and lack of respect for the law will not match anything the Bush administration reached.

I think it's also a reaction to a lack of policy coming from the GOP. Take the Governors who made a noise about rejecting bailout money. Why didn't those Governors get creative and find a Republican friendly way to spend the money? The point being that there are reasons the party of no meme is sticking.

smallsislove said...

Helena Bonham Carter is writing for ZeroHedge now?

Shane said...

Jon Borowsky said...

However one question I would ask about this analysis is if there's some degree of multicolinearity in play.

When two variables in a regression are closely associated, whether negatively or positively, the coefficients are going to be driven towards zero.

McCain donors are more likely to be Republican donors (positive correlation).

--------------------

I've usually seen massive swings in the coefficients when multicolinearity is present, but I also thought (if I remember right, it's not my main area) that an estimate of the underlying effect can be gotten by summing the colinear variables. That is, summing Republican with McCain coefficients would give a good estimate of 'conservative' people.

However, I would assume that the authors would be doing something stupid (maybe a bad assumption...) and actually performing the regression with only one of those categories at a time as an independent variable.

Shane said...

ugh, meant to note in the last post:

VW: mathsm. {voice of Vince Offer} I don't know. This stuff writes itself {\Vince}

Andrew Levine said...

directorblue:
And, oddly enough, "car czar" Steven Rattner's wife (Maureen White) is described on her own website as the "National Finance Chair of the Hillary Clinton for President Campaign".Wow, a Democratic-appointed official has a wife involved in Democratic politics. Stop the presses, everyone.

Nosimplehiway said...

The heart of the matter, really, is who made the closure decisions? The answer: probably no one in particular.

Anyone who has ever worked for a major corporation can tell you why the method of choosing who closes seems opaque and confusing. No one person decides it. It would be a cascading series of decisions made by many different people, most of whom assumed their decisions would be ignored.

My guess: the accounting folks at head office drew up a list based purely on proftability (but including such arcane, doggedly followed and ultimately meaningless metrics as ratio of employee pay to customer complaints, percent increase in local sales tax expressed as its ratio to growth of traffic, and sales per square foot of showroom), the parts department complied a list based on who uses the most parts per sales (indicating shrink related to breakage, poor use of materials, etc... an inefficient use of parts does not mean the dealer is more likely to be picked for this closure list, quite the opposite. Dealers inefficiently using parts makes this department look more profitable.), the national marketing folks looked at market shares and market growth rate, regional management developed their own hit list and safe list (possibly rational, but just as likely based on who personally annoys them), HR examines which dealerships have the highest healthcare costs and likelihood of employee lawsuits, regional marketing managers looked at things like how easy it is to get to the dealership from that new development on the other side of the airport now that the road its on is a divided roadway, and on and on and on. Each decision likely took dozens of people working in aggregate, each doing a tiny little piece of the puzzle in a huge social network.

Those individual lists (departmental, regional, national and personal) got edited by some of the individuals involved using such ephemera as which dealership owner got drunk at the last Christmas party and hit on the examiners' wife, or which dealer always brings Tim Horton's instead of Krispy Kreme to regional parts utilization and loss prevention meetings. Corporations are not always the most rational beasts, when examined in detail.

Those initial lists would circulate, signed or unsigned or perhaps signed by a faceless committee or office, being compared, compiled and edited by every party that got hold of them, again some for rational reasons, some not. Some parties would go out of their way to claim authorship, others would intentionally obscure who they are (do you want to be the guy who suggested closing your wife's cousin's dealership?), while still other lists would have completely unknown authorship. Eventually those lists, and the millions of idiosyncratic decisions contained in them would filter upward to top management, but only after filtering back downward through gate-keepers, like admin assistants, report writers, analysts and junior assistant execs. (If you have the perfect list in hand, but the person scheduling appointments refuses to find time for you to meet with your regional VP, that perfect list goes nowhere.) Top execs, would likely accept the lists, more or less as whole cloth, under the assumption that editing it would open themselves up to personal responsibility for a decision, something every executive worth his salt the way you avoid a hooker with swine flu.

These lists were the result of millions of tiny decisions leading to a consensus and therefore more or less the right choice in their very averageness. But this chaos driven method does not lend itself to statistical analysis. It would be like getting today's weather report in San Diego and regressing backward to see whether it rained in Maine last Monday night.

Furthermore: Nate has statistically shown a poor link between Republican-ness and closure. The conservative nutjobs refuse to drop it. They look more like the tin foil hat wearing loonies they are everyday this goes on... All's good with the world.

Jon Borowsky said...

@Shane 5:52 am

Multicollinearity does cause wild swings in the coefficients, not biase them towards zero, as I claimed. I was wrong. I'm sorry.

But what it does do is drive up the standard error, increasing the P-statistics and making it less likely that statistically significant results will be found. So materially the effect on this discussion is the same, right?

Alan said...

Interesting comments; the site really attracts a wonderful collection of sentients.

As I think at least one person said, it's easy enough to look for one significant result on a post-hoc basis; you just use a different test and/or a different measure of significance. I can eyeball those data and know that result is purely random.

You do, however, write off "data dredging" too glibly. As per the roulette example, it is probably the best tool we have for generating interesting hypothesis from messy data. You just have to follow it up with a separate, independent test. Too bad that's wicked expensive.

Zachary said...

I'm sure this has been pointed out, but has any tested the hypothesis:

"Dealships with crappy sales were mire likely to be closed"

or

"Dealerships close to other dealerships were more likely to be closed"

If either of those turns out to be significant, we can tell the magical mystery hypothesis to shove it.

Zachary said...

that's "Dealships with crappy sales were more likely to be closed"

Kevin said...

Bravo, Nate. Posts like these are why I come to this site.

harold said...

directorblue -

Thank you for responding to logical rebuttal of your claims by merely repeating your dismissed claims, unmodified.

Others -

Even if there were some rational statistical analysis that showed that Republican-donating car dealers were more likely to be closed than Democrat-donating car dealers, which there is not, even that would not indicate a conspiracy. A third factor could be the driver.

Dealers would be likely to support parties whose legislation might be expected to be congruent with their business strategy. Thus, even among those who deal mainly in Chrysler cars, the subset who favor large gas-guzzlers might, for example, be both more likely to donate to Republicans, and more likely to have suffered poor sales of late and thus be closed.

However, again, there is no evidence to suggest excess closure of Republican dealerships.

As Nate mentioned, car dealers as a total group are and would be expected to be, overwhelmingly Republican donors.

We also need to remember that many business Republican donors also make small donations to a Democrat.

It's a moot point since the regression analysis depicted produces no significant results anyway, but one would need to control for the fact that "Clinton donor" car dealers might also be heavier donors to McCain.

LFC said...

I once saw a fantastic signature line that directorblue should read, absorb, and use as a guide. "The plural of anecdote is not data.

Oh, yeah. I heard that there's a Chrysler dealership in Hawaii that's owned by a guy whose mother was a nurse at the hospital where Obama was supposedly born, and he got to keep his dealership because she knows the truth about Obama's birth certificate. (That should get repeated on Rush in about 10..., 9..., 8...)

Bill Jefferys said...

I wish people (especially Nate, who knows better) would be more careful when describing p-values.

The p-value is NOT "the probability that the outcome occured due to pure randomness." ALL outcomes of statistical tests are entirely due to randomness, by definition, since they are the result of random processes.

If the p-value is 0.05, it is NOT the case that there is a 95 percent chance that the hypothesis is true. Only Bayesian theory can give such a probability, since only Bayesians are allowed to put probabilites on hypotheses. Frequentists are not allowed to put probabilities on hypotheses, and p-values of the sort used in this article are a frequentist construct.

The only thing you can say about a p-value is that if you observe a particular p-value, say 0.05 for definiteness, then in a large set of similar experiments, assuming that the null hypothesis is TRUE, only 5% of the tests would result in a p-value that was as small as or smaller than 0.05; that is, 0.05 is the Type I error rate (horrible terminology, but we are stuck with it) for a series of experiments that may or may not have been performed where the null hypothesis is actually true.

Celt said...

(tried to post this a couple of times without success - apologies if it gets posted more than once)

Nate, I know you didn't construct the table, but there's something wrong for "republican" and "None." As presented for republican, z=coef/se(coef)=4.2 (not 0.42 as is indicated in the table), which would be significant at the 5% error level. Moreover, exp(coef)=1.6 (not 1.05) which would indicate a much larger effect. I'm assuming it's a keying error on the coefficient since changing .47... to .047... makes everything else match. The same issue is true for "None."

Jeff P said...

@directorblue:

Why was the DealMakers auto group protected from closing despite its teetering on the precipice of financial and legal collapse?DB, anybody with experience with this kind of decision-making will tell you that whenever you have a high ratio of population to variables (in this case, a population of 3500 dealers to...maybe 10, 15 variables? That's just a guess.), a few will inevitably slip through the cracks. I'll bet a leftwing nutjob could find Republican donors that fit a similar description as you gave above.

[I]n some cases, those parties are billionaires who do not want their names listed as primary owners in these types of documents.And you found one example. There are probably Republican donors for which this is true as well. It's YOUR responsibility to prove a hypothesis that you've proffered, and show that if we update the dealers to include ALL owners (don't forget to update Republican owners also!), then the relationships become significant.

You're demanding that the Administration (or someone acting in proxy, such as Nate) prove a negative (that the closures were not biased), which is a logical fallacy known as an Argument From Ignorance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

@ronebofh:

NICE Hot Shots reference. I approve.

@Buckeye_Tom:

Your hypothesis cannot be proven or disproven because it is poorly defined. What is "transparency"? How can it be objectively measured?

Eleanor said...

What would be more interesting would be to look at geographic distribution of dealerships being closed versus those being left open. Dealerships are local markets, and there are pretty big efficiencies of scale/scope involved. Looking at the data on a national level might obscure leaving dealerships in market positions that would be favorable to one group but disfavorable to another group. IF there were a dealergate, I'd expect it to play out on a local level rather than a nationwide one.

I am a faithful reader of zero hedge. Looking at the chart, I simply couldn't explain how Ms. Singer came to the conclusions that she did. What I thought her data showed more was the human likelihood to not ax people in the back whom one knows personally. If the car czar is married to the head of Clinton's campaign finance committee, chances are that he met at least a few dealers who were big donors to the Clinton campaign. If there were 53 dealers who donated to her campaign total, that's a small universe - just a couple such instances would make a difference in P. I'm more likely to favor/trust people that I know vs. faceless car salesmen.

With that said, anyone who patronizes one word of Michelle Malkin's is a rube. She's kind of highly negatively correlated with rational statements and truth.

Orin said...

So they run 6 hypo's, and find the most unlikely set would occur, by random chance, 12.5% of the time.

So lets say I had a sack of marbles, made some blue, red, and non-colored. Then I labeled some of the blue "O" and "C", and some of the red "Mc".

Then I pull out 25% truly and completely randomly (I'm blindfolded, or don't look into the sack, etc).

Then I compare the blue inside the bag to out, along with the red, then the "O", then the "C", then the "Mc", and even the noncolored against the ones I labeled...

In other words, as Nate said, 6 hypos at once.

Wouldn't I on average get a 89% correlation or better, as a high water mark, using pure randomness?

(100 - 100x.89^6) = 50.3

(Obviously this ignores that things can be 2 things at once, which would allow for extra opportunities for finding 2 sets of "proof" at once, i.e. both blue and "O" marbles have been "saved", or both red and "Mc" marbles were "targeted").

So not only does this show nothing, it shows the data is actually WORSE THAN YOU WOULD GET ON AVERAGE if you tried to run 6 sets of data on pure randomness, and labeled the least likely result "proof"...

So if this isn't enough to get them to quit on this one and wait for the next opportunity to shout conspiracy, apparently nothing will.

-----

As an aside:

Using 6 unrelated data sets, you actually have over a 1/4 (26.5%)shot at reaching the magical 95% correlation or better with 1 of the 6:

(100 - (100x.95^6)= 26.5

You need 14 hypos at once to increase the odds of crossing .05 being more likely than not:

(100 - 100x.95^14) = 51.23.

Looks like they got a little unlucky, really.

Especially considering all the reasons they might have had better than just random odds, i.e if more rural dealerships closed than urban, or more gluts of domestic car dealers occuring in "red" towns in the US vs "blue" towns.

Efrique said...

I popped in to complain loudly about the "95 percent chance of the hypothesis being true" line (which is absolutely NOT the case)... but I see a few people have already picked up on it, so I won't labor the point, other than to say it's a major bugbear with students and professionals I encounter; I find myself having to correct this particular misunderstanding quite frequently.

kankan said...

Does no one remember the 2008 primaries, wasn’t Rush exorting people to cross party lines and vote for Hillary…could it be the ever so slight, not very significant Hillary leaning of the dealers was do to some Repub dealers contributing to Hillary of the long grueling Dem primary in the hopes of dividing Dems…so while Dem dealers were likely split between Hill and Obama during 2008, Repubs would contribute to Hill…do not know if dealers could only be labeled as being supporter of one candidate or of any and all they contributed were counter in this…if any and all contributions were counted…Repub contributions to Hill seems simplest explanation…please correct me if this is an incorrect possiblity

Bozo said...

And even if the findings were statistically significant, that only shows correlation, not causation. OTOH, in politics correlation is sufficient to run campaign ads and smear campaigns.

Shyam said...

Very well analyzed and explained even better. Thank you Nate.

George said...

An excellent analysis that closes the door on the subject (and I say that as someone who was initially concerned about the reports). Good work.

Chris said...

I am a "geostatistician" and will archive and include this thread for my class -- it ain't geostat, but it sure is hypothesis testing. And it also confirms me in my Bayesian leanings....

beavis said...

When Keith had a report on this poppycock, right-wing conspiracy, he mentioned that you found 88% of auto dealers gave to the GOOPers, but also stated (paraphrasing) 'Another [unnamed] blogger found a 92% correlation between being an auto dealer and contributing to the GOOPers.'

The best part was the republican congressman who owns a dealership slated for closing complaining, and he voted against the auto bailout.

What did the moron think would happen to his business if the auto makers collapsed.?

Boonton said...

I think this might be a simplier way to explain Hedge's p-score problem.

Say I think a coin is biased. I flip it twice and it comes up with heads both times. Biased?

Well clearly if the coin was biased towards heads, getting heads both times is consistent with that. But there's a 25% chance that an unbiased coin will yield head-head when flipped twice. The 'p-score' in that case is 25% or we could say our confidence level is only 75%.

Well what about the 12.5% for the relationship between Clinton donors and not being closed? Well if I said a coin was biased based on only two flips, you'd laught at me. Well suppose I only flipped it 3 times and got three heads? Guess what, the odds of that are 12.5%!

Anandakos said...

I am not schooled enough in statistics to have a valid opinion about the analyses presented here.

However, I'd like to point out that DirectorBlue and other conspiracy supporters have one enormous hill to climb: that is that SOMEONE in Chrysler's upper management just about has to be a rabid Republican. There is simple no way that such a conspiracy could be kept quiet.

Since this has been boiling in the blogosphere and even in the larger media for at least 48 hours now, the likelihood that the theory is true is shrinking rapidly.

Can anyone here entertain for one microsecond the idea that a partisan Republican having knowledge of such an order from the "car czar" would not have blast-faxed it to every media outlet this side of Saturn's moon Enceladus by this time?

Joe Maxwell said...

The coin-flipping example is a good one, but there's more to it than Boonton's example suggests. Suppose you take a quarter that you have just received in change, flip it 7 times, and get 7 heads. This is a very unlikely occurrence (less than one chance in a hundred, or p <.01) IF it's a fair coin (one that has an equal likelihood of coming up heads or tails--the null hypothesis). However, it's still more likely that the coin is fair and that this particular result is due to chance than it is that some other explanation is involved (for example, that the coin is biased, or that someone is psychically manipulating the coin). In this case, the “chance variation” explanation is unlikely, but all other explanations are even more unlikely.

This illustrates an essential point of scientific method--that you want to test the plausibility of your proposed explanation relative to ALL other plausible explanations. From this point of view, you have to consider the likelihood of possible explanations for the result BESIDES chance variation in the sample. Lots of people have posted plausible explanations for the apparent association between dealers' campaign donations and dealership closings, in addition to a deliberate closing of Republican dealerships. In addition, Anandakos made the extremely important observation that the likelihood that anyone could slip through a deliberate closing of Republican dealers without someone blowing the whistle is extremely low.

However, statistical significance tests (p values) only assess ONE possible alternative explanation--chance variability in the sample. They say NOTHING about all the other possible explanations for the result, or how likely these are relative to the "conspiracy" explanation. Such tests are useful only if chance variation is the major alternative to your proposed hypothesis.

bruce said...

Many of the same people here were less than a year ago grasping for straws and cared nothing for significant P values. Voter dis-enfranchisement and republican conspiracies were a favorite topic of discussion. Who needs statistical proof for that, we all know it's true! The 2000 election was stolen and exhibited systemic efforts to stop minority voters from voting, based on anecdotal evidence with any kind of statistical analysis a distant concern if performed at all.

What a joke. When it comes to discrediting Republicans, most of the people here are very liable to believe it and don't need statistical proof. But to throw your own guy under the bus you demand more than anecdotal evidence since it runs counter to your view of the world. Everyone has a high standard when it comes to overturning a worldview they believe to be based on a lot of evidence, and a low burden of proof for things which confirm already known "facts."

So sorry, righteous indignation from people on the left bemoaning conservatives low standards of proof rings very hallow following the last eight years.

bruce said...

All in all, this does not preclude the possibility of their having been some favorability for large Democratic donors. I don't believe this to be the case. But without knowing the criteria we're just left with our biases and guesses. That's what a lack of transparency gets you.

Also, this shows how much of a mess it is to have politicians making decisions normally left to the free market. Feelings will be bruised and people will be angered. If there's a lesson for you democrats to learn, that'd be it.

Tanystropheus said...

I'm sure no one's reading this comment thread anymore, but what the hell.

The company I work for does a fair amount of business with car dealers. When the Chrysler/Dodge dealership closures happened, we were a bit puzzled by how the decision played out in our local area. Apparently, the company has some sort of rating system for dealerships, and in our neighborhood there were some higher-rated dealerships closed while lower-rated ones stayed open. Why?

Well, my boss reports that he was at some meeting talking about this with a local car dealer, and the dealer opined that it was pretty clear to him how the decision had been made: all the guys who lost their dealerships were jerks and no one liked them!

There's a serious consideration hidden inside this anecdote: it's possible that the list of losers wasn't even compiled at the high levels of the company, but may have been farmed out to regional/local offices to decide according to their own preference.

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