4.13.2009

What Would a "Bipartisan" Obama Look Like? (Hint: A Lot Like the One We're Seeing)

Over at RealClarPolitics, Jay Cost takes Obama to task for failing to live up to his promises of bipartisanship. Cost writes:

Instead, my criticism of the President is that he promised to be above this. He made that the core pledge of his candidacy, the principal reason he should receive the nomination and ultimately the presidency over the dozen or so other contenders across both parties who had better résumés but had been part of the partisan hackery. It was always going to be damned near impossible to move beyond heated partisanship - given all the structural forces that have been at work since the founding, and the ones that have been increasing in the last half century or so. In my opinion, that excuses President Obama for not moving us beyond it - but it does not excuse candidate Obama from promising that he could. Either he knew better and should not have made that promise (and, by extension, should not have run, given the centrality of this promise) - or he didn't know better and was just naïve. Either way, it is appropriate to hold him to account.
What Cost accuses Obama of is acting in bad faith -- he promised "bipartisanship" and hasn't delivered.

Cost is right, undoubtedly, that Obama's rhetoric about "bipartisanship" was partly a campaign tactic. It was, on the one hand, a politically helpful extension of Obama's 2004 DNC keynote speech, which was the only thing that most voters knew him by early in the primary campaign. On the other hand, it was a polite way to draw a contrast with Hillary Clinton, who's core weakness may have been a perception that she would be a polarizing political actor.

It is perhaps worth pausing to note that two key circumstances changed from late 2007, when Obama was most frequently using his "bipartisan" rhetoric. The first circumstance was that John McCain, who himself had a strong reputation for bipartisanship, became the Republican nominee. "Bipartisanship", therefore, became less important as a differentiator for Obama than it might have been against a more unapologetically party-line Republican like a Mitt Romney or a Fred Thompson. The other contingency, of course, was the economic collapse that accelerated throughout 2008 and particularly in September and October of last year. Once the economy fell apart, people weren't so concerned about abstractions like bipartisanship -- they simply wanted the problems solved.

More essentially, however, bipartisanship, as Obama intended the term, should not necessarily be confused for "compromise". Rather, it implied behaving in good-faith -- hearing out opinions from different sides of the aisle and identifying the best ideas regardless of their partisan origin. Bipartisanship, to Obama, was a process rather than an outcome. He could plausibly have been acting in a bipartisan manner, even if he hadn't gotten many Republicans to go along with his agenda.

As Mark Schmitt wrote in his excellent article on the Obama's "theory of change" in December 2007:

What I find most interesting about Obama's approach to bipartisanship is how seriously he takes conservatism. As Michael Tomasky describes it in his review of The Audacity of Hope, "The chapters boil down to a pattern: here's what the right believes about subject X, and here's what the left believes; and while I basically side with the left, I think the right has a point or two that we should consider, and the left can sometimes get a little carried away." What I find fascinating about his language about unity and cross-partisanship is that it is not premised on finding Republicans who agree with him, but on taking in good faith the language and positions of actual conservatism -- people who don't agree with him. That's very different from the longed-for consensus of the Washington Post editorial page.

The reason the conservative power structure has been so dangerous, and is especially dangerous in opposition, is that it can operate almost entirely on bad faith. It thrives on protest, complaint, fear: higher taxes, you won't be able to choose your doctor, liberals coddle terrorists, etc. One way to deal with that kind of bad-faith opposition is to draw the person in, treat them as if they were operating in good faith, and draw them into a conversation about how they actually would solve the problem. If they have nothing, it shows. And that's not a tactic of bipartisan Washington idealists -- it's a hard-nosed tactic of community organizers, who are acutely aware of power and conflict. It's how you deal with people with intractable demands -- put ‘em on a committee. Then define the committee's mission your way.

Perhaps I'm making assumptions about the degree to which Obama is conscious that his pitch is a tactic of change. But his speeches show all the passion of Edwards or Clinton, his history is as a community organizer and aggressive reformer (I first heard his name 10 years ago because he was on the board of the Joyce Foundation in Chicago, which was the leading supporter of real campaign finance reform at the time, and he has shown extraordinary political skill in drawing Senator Clinton into a clumsy overreaction. If we understand Obama's approach as a means, and not the limit of what he understands about American politics, it has great promise as a theory of change, probably greater promise than either "work for it" or "demand it," although we'll need a large dose of hard work and an engaged social movement as well.

Note that, in Schmitt's explication of Obama's "bipartisanship", we are operating somewhat in the conditional tense. We start by assuming that one's opponents are acting in good faith, extending an olive branch to them and therefore pressing the reset button on the ongoing game of tit-for-tat. If the opponent demonstrates that they are not acting in good faith, however, all bets are off and we are back in the partisan game.

Have the Republicans in Congress been behaving in good faith? It is easy to argue that they have not been:

Exhibit A: The Stimulus Package.
The stimulus package proposed by the Obama administration contained less public spending, and more tax cuts, than most liberal economists were calling for. And yet, it received zero Republican votes in the House. Nor did any House Republicans vote for the conference report after the bill had passed the Senate, even though it represented tangible movement toward the Republican position.

Exhibit B: TARP. Sixteen Republican Senators -- Bennett, Bond, Burr, Chambliss, Collins, Coburn, Ensign, Graham, Grassley, Hutchison, Isakson, Martinez, McCain, McConnell, Specter and Thune -- voted to withhold the second half of the $700 billion in TARP funds, even though they had voted to authorize the TARP program in October when George W. Bush was still in office. Although one can certainly have changed one's position on TARP based on the facts and circumstances on the ground, it is unlikely that almost half of the remaining Republican delegation would have changed their position within 60 days based on the sanctity of the ideas alone.

Exhibit C: The Budget. One fairly inscrutable characteristic of good faith negotiation is that one is willing to offer an intellectually coherent alternative. This is not something which can be said of the Republican budget, where the numbers, such as they are, don't really add up.

Exhibit D: Nomination Holds. Republican efforts to delay the appointment of two key members of Obama's Council of Economic Advisers, as well as his Labor Secretary, are hard to justify from any position other than partisan gamesmanship.

If there is a credible case to be made that the Republicans -- or at least the House Republicans -- started out with any intentions of compromising, I have yet to see it. Instead, the House Republicans voted as a near-uniform block against issues as trivial as a bill to delay the date of the digital TV changeover. Not only have they not compromised, but they never seemed to have any intention to do so.

If it is easy to demonstrate Republican bad faith, however, it is more difficult to prove that Obama has been behaving in good faith. The White House, certainly, has had at least one moment -- the decision to go nuclear on Rush Limbaugh -- in which it explicitly appeared to be fanning the partisan flames.

What isn't clear to me, however, is what exactly folks like Cost would have liked the Administration to have done differently. Obama pressed hard -- although with some hiccups -- on the stimulus package, but its magnitude was less than what many liberals were hoping for. He is attempting to push forward, through his budget, issues like health care and cap-and-trade, but these things were at the core of his positioning throughout the primaries and general election.

Meanwhile, Obama has angered the left on a number of issues ranging from the decision to have Rick Warren give the invocation at the inaugural, to the bank bailout, to his abortive attempt to name Judd Gregg as his commerce secretary, to his appointment of Larry Summers, to his committing additional troops to Afghanistan, to his position on state secrets. Obama has also come in for some liberal fire for his purported lack of urgency on issues like the Employee Free Choice Act and repealing the ban on openly gay troops in the military.

A more robust interpretation/criticism of Obama's "bipartisan" positioning is that he is playing a game he knows he can't lose. For one thing, the President has the advantage of the bully pulpit, and (particularly when as rhetorically gifted as Obama) can therefore frame the debate in advantageous terms. For another, Obama has public opinion behind him on most of the key items of his agenda, such as health care, the stimulus package, and the reversion of the tax code to its Clinton-era norms. It is easier to appear reasonable when the average voter starts out agreeing with you. Finally, as Schmitt suggested more than a year ago, Obama may have known full well that Republicans weren't about to seek compromise, nor would it necessarily have been politically advantageous for them to do so. If partisan squabbling is inevitable, it is useful to have pre-positioned oneself in advance as its victim rather than its instigator.

The object of the game, moreover, is not really to appeal to Republican voters, whose numbers are too scarce to make them politically relevant. Rather, it is to put on a good show for moderates and independents, in the hopes of placing sufficient pressure on moderate Democrats like Evan Bayh and moderate Republicans like Susan Collins to back the Administration's agenda.

What I don't think Obama can be accused of, however, is breaking any promises. In fact, he basically telegraphed his strategy with the whole Rick Warren thing: make a show of appealing to conservatives here and there, and perhaps avoid issues that are symbolically important to the left but which drain one's political capital, while all the while continuing to push forward the core elements of a conventionally Democratic (but hardly radical) agenda. Very little about the Administration's strategy has been surprising. Whether it will be successful or not, we will have to see.

120 comments

Me said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Bradford said...

Couldn't agree more, the emphasis needs to be on the other side, where a coherent logical argument for any alternative is replaced with attack politics, negative rantings, and spin which passes into lying on many occasions. The Beck/Hannity/Limbaugh republican party may make those guys rich, but it is alienating the center and making sure they stay a party of the uneducated south.

Nice post.

Carl said...

Obama has made overtures of bipartisanship Last November, the country said it wanted Obama to drive the bus. To date, the only content the repubs have offered up is tax cuts for the rich (house unanimously votes against stimulus, holdup of apptments, "repub alternative budget" without numbers) and automatic opposition to Obama. Obama needs to stay "above the fray" in the quest for bipartisan ship --- but most of the breakdown is on the republican side.

brown said...

Exactly. I don't see Obama as pursuing a particularly partisan agenda. His two signature liberal issues, health care and the environment, have become centrist issues, and even if John McCain had been elected, I think he would have at least paid lip service to them. And even on those issues, Obama's not talking about a single-payer system, and he's not talking about closing down coal plants or regulating the auto manufacturers out of existence (quite the contrary). He's also not trying to outlaw the death penalty at the federal level, although I'd like to see that happen. He's not trying to push through a lot of gun control measures, although I'd like to see that happen, too. He's not trying to legalize marijuana, he's carrying on many of Bush's War of Terror policies (even they aren't calling it that), he's actually INCREASED defense spending, and he's not a supporter of gay marriage. In almost every respect, Obama is left-of-center, which only looks unforgivably partisan if you're a right-wing ideologue.

Jon said...

Cost's post doesn't actually attack Obama for anything he's done since the election. Rather, the nub of Cost's post is: "Obama wasn't the most qualified Democrat running, and it's a shame the country elected him. I blame Obama for the country's unfortunate choice; we were all fooled by his promises during the campaign that he could achieve consensus in Washington -- promises he should have known he couldn't keep." That analysis is flawed on too many levels to mention. A key one is Cost's reading of Obama's campaign as a *guarantee* that he would bring about Washington bipartisanship -- a guarantee that suckered us all into voting for a less qualified candidate -- rather than simply a promise to do his best to bring it about. Even more important is Cost's apparent belief that but for Obama telling us (honestly) that he believes in trying to find common ground with his opponents, we would all have voted for Hilary or something.

Tony C. said...

I accuse Obama of breaking promises!

Specifically, read Greenwald.

Forget the bitch about bipartisanship; Obama promised explicitly to restore the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and has done exactly the opposite. I voted for him in primary and general, I donated hundreds of dollars to him, and THAT was campaigning in bad faith, on lies. I might remind you he promised to filibuster FISA as well, and threw us under the bus on that, and now Eric Holder and Obama are explicitly endorsing Bush's practices of rendition, suspension of habeas corpus, the 'right' of the President to spy on anyone at any time using any means without a warrant, and much more. Obama lied to us.

Haniff said...

I agree with Jon. Cost's complaint is essentially that Primary voters chose Obama solely based on claims of "bipartisanship". Because that premise is at best debatable, it sort of undermines Cost's argument.

Michael said...

I find a lot of the editorializing over at relaclearpolitics to be right-leaning or outright conservative. Maybe it's my libral-colored sun glasses, but to me the articles they choose to highlight on RCP are often heavily right-wing. The Wall Street Journal editorial page is so rabidly conservative and kneejerk, I don't think it has any place in an informed debate. RCP also includes editorials from publications like the New York Post, a horrible "newspaper" whose agebnda is not to inform, but to knock liberals down a peg.

If they are highlighting these conservative leaning articles in the name of "bipartisanship", I would expect to see some Noam Chomsky in there too, just to balance things out.

Dr Zen said...

LOL. Obama hasn't been partisan because he's positioned out on the right.

And yah, obviously RCP is out on the right.

Alex S. said...

In the end, bipartisanship just means listening to the other side, getting people on board by attempting to lure them onto your side. It's true that this doesn't have to be a compromise, it just needs to be a good intention.
When Republicans are complaining, they are complaining about Obama's good poll numbers with independents. That should show them that independents do not agree with the current Republican policies (politics?), but since they refuse to listen, they are isolating themselves, and give independents no choice but to support Obama.
Maybe the Republicans have given Obama too much ideological space to act "bipartisan". Because of the enormous contrast to the Republican hardliners, Obama is able to appear bipartisan by very tiny gestures, like the appointments of Gregg and Gates, or his essentially unimportant big-speech oratory. Obama is not in danger of losing the left, the "social agenda" of the left is advancing on the state level anyway, and there is no credible challenge to the left of Obama (Nancy Pelosi could be, but she can wait 2 more years), so all Obama has to focus on is the center of the electorate, and he does it by acting a little more bipartisan than the Republicans.
At the moment, it looks like Republican reaction to the 2008 election is to move further to the right which might lead to another disaster in 2010 (it's not impossible, according to Nate's ranking for example, that Republicans lose up to 7 seats and just win in Connecticut). At that point, Obama can credibly abandon his way of bipartisanship, because, as he might say then, "Republicans never had any interest in bipartisanship anyway". The way things are going now, Obama almost cannot lose.

Bradford said...

Michael-

RealClearPolitics is a right leaning site. It used to be wingnut right, but now is just biased. There was alot of discussion here, andmaybe even a Nate post or two, on the RCP average and how they gamed it to make sure it showed McCain was closer than he really was down the stretch.

Tony C. said...

@Alex S:

Chris Dodd (D-Connecticut) is under the bus now for Obama's political convenience, but I have to think that by 2010 he will be 100% rehabilitated. This is the political reality; Obama cannot keep Dodd from running, and does not want to lose even one Dem seat in the Senate he doesn't have to, and thus will do everything in his power to make sure Dodd is re-elected. Obama will find a way to make Dodd a hero, and so will the rest of the Democratic Senate Democratic House. He might seem bloodied and staggering now, but wait and see where he is a year from now; this guy will be a mounted knight in shining armor defending democracy from its Republican enemies, and delivering riches to Connecticut citizens by the truckload.

Expect to see him as Obama's pal, a few photo ops of Dodd holding forth in meetings with Obama listening thoughtfully and intently, Obama smiling with his arm around Dodd's shoulder, Obama and Dodd walking the halls of power in deep conversation, whatever.

Dodd will not be sacrificed.

Tony C. said...

Republicans are just lost. It will take them awhile, but sooner or later they have to see that there aren't enough buyers for their product anymore. It has gone stale and they need a new line. Conservatism has failed them, both fiscal and social.

Any bets on when they wake up? Or IF they wake up? It seems their customer base is slowly eroding, day by day. Which is good news for my side, but holy cow, how long will they continue to stare at the oncoming train before they realize they must abandon the car?

nova_middle_man said...

All right I have to comment to at least have some type of balance on this site

The stimulus package was fairly decent but then it was porked and messed with by Pelosi and Reid

Final Analysis

Obama pro-bipartisanship
Dem Congress failed

The budget on the other hand had Obama proposing a very liberal plan. It was then moderated by the congress

Obama failed
Dem Congress pro-bipartisanship

Finally, on the point that the Republicans have not offered anything. They have offered various bits and pieces. The thing is ultimately there is no chance that any of the major ideas would make it through a D controlled congress. With the way Pelosi and Reid are running things its pretty much a waste of time for the Rs to propose anything. The Rs were treating the Ds like crap from 2000-2006 so the Rs have no leg to stand on when complaining. However, as an independent its obvious that Washington is still broken within a couple of years the Rs will have some more control again and the pendulum will swing back the other way.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Hey Nate.

Do an analysis on Rasmussen polling. Their disapproval ratings of Obama hover around 40% higher than everyone elses and their approval ratings of Obama are usually around 10% lower than everyone's, this comes out to around 14 percentage points and around 5 percentage points respectively.

Rasmussen's favorable ratings are even further off.

And regarding this bi-partisan bologna, its bologna.

Obama was going to Washington in the hopes to change the tone. It's the Republicans that are becoming fixed on bi-partisanship. It's an easy argument for them to win especially when they won't budge on anything.

Tony C. said...

It is always a mistake in business to assume your competition is incompetent. But when I look at what Republicans seem to be offering as alternatives, it is very difficult to conclude otherwise.

Palin? Jindal? Boehner? McConnell? Steele? Bachmann? Limbaugh ass-kissing? REALLY?

If there is a shred of actual political intelligence in the Republican camp I am having real difficulty seeing it. They seem to be imploding when they should be figuring out how to prevent Dems from getting a filibuster proof majority. I don't get it; it is like they lost a few battles and have completely broken ranks, they are fleeing in all directions. It's crazy.

John T said...

Part of the appearance of Republican incompetence (intransigent stupidity, really) may just be a function of a lack of leadership, but it certainly does say something when the likes of Palin, Gingrich and Mike Pence have the sort of national profile and influence that they do.

That said, it seems to me, just anecdotally, that the notion that the stimulus was a poorly executed, pork-laden waste of money actually has some resonance with people, but we may be having this conversation too early. If in 18-24 months people feel like they aren't seeing enough benefits from this enormous stimulus expenditure for which their children and grandchildren will be paying, we could see a definite shift away from its current relative popularity, possibly reflected in the 2010 midterms if the Republicans manage to cohere around an accessible message that marginalizes the vitriolic fringe. Again, whether they can do this remains to be seen, but I agree that the current lineup doesn't look too hot, to put it mildly.

Boing said...

Why don't we all just admit that it is in fact impossible to get elected and then keep one's campaign promises?

The physicist Richard Feynman understood this a long time ago - sorry about the long quote but it's well worth reading:

_______________

"...I think I can illustrate one unscientific aspect of the world which would be probably very much better if it were more scientific. It has to do with politics.

“Suppose two politicians are running for president, and one goes through the [farming community] and is asked, ‘What are you going to do about the farm question?’ And he knows right away – bang, bang, bang. Now [the questioner] goes to the next campaigner who comes through:

—’What are you going to do about the farm problem?’
—’Well, I don’t know. I used to be a general, and I don’t know anything about farming. But it seems to me to be a very difficult problem, because for twelve, fifteen, twenty years people have been struggling with it, and people say they know how to solve the farm problem. And it must be a hard problem. So the way I intend to solve the farm problem is to gather around me a lot of people who know something about it, to look at all the experience that we have had with this problem before, to take a certain amount of time at it and then to come to some conclusion in a reasonable way about it. Now, I can’t tell you ahead of time what conclusion, but I can give you some of the principles I’ll try to use…’

“Now such a man would never get anywhere in this country, I think. It’s never been tried, anyway. This is in the attitude of mind of the populace, that they have to have an answer and that a man who gives an answer is better than a man who gives no answer, when the real fact of the matter is, in most cases, it is the other way around. And the result of this of course is that the politician must give an answer. And the result of this is that political promises can never be kept. It is a mechanical fact: it is impossible. And the result of that is that nobody believes campaign promises. And the result of that is a general disparaging of politics, a general lack of respect for the people who are trying to solve problems, and so forth. It’s all generated, maybe, by the fact that the attitude of the populace is to try to find the answer instead of trying to find a man who has a way of getting at the answer.”

loner said...

Jay should try teaching.

Right now, Democrats in general and Obama in particular have nothing to worry about.

Bradford said...

Dobson's statements over the weekend that social conservatism has failed are telling, and if true that could be the final nail of the coffin of the Reagan coalition. Let's face it, social conservatives and fiscal conservatives share nothing but a name. A libertarian leaning republican party will finally emerge from this IMO, and the social conservatives will be left behind by both major parties.

How long will that take? Oh, about 8 years...

Alex S. said...

@ Tony C.

Hmmmm, I am not so sure about Dodd. I think he is a "spent force", he cannot recover on his own anymore. People have made up his mind about him now and cannot be impressed by campaign events anymore. I have the feeling that there is a desire for change in Connecticut, leading to the demise of both Dodd and Lieberman. Would Obama really spend political capital on Dodd? I really doubt it. His only hope is rapid economic turnaround.

HelenSouth said...

Tony said, "they are fleeing in all directions". Could this be because the underlying philosophical bent of Republicanism is actually anarchy?

They have espoused deregulation / no regulation for so many years that they have come to see laissez-faire in every aspect of the polity. Now they are applying it to their own party & not yet understanding that they have way too many chiefs & too few Indians.

Every chief wants to be a leader & they are letting the chiefs have their way, but the very anarchy of where they are at right now simply proves the weakness of their theory.

Judge C. Crater said...

"...the decision to go nuclear on Rush Limbaugh"

Au contraire, I regard this as brilliant strategy with long-term payoffs. Most R's I know are uncomfortable with Limbaugh even if they do enjoy listening to his rants. By making him the face of the GOP Obama is forcing less 'committed' (as in insane asylum) R's to choose between his hard-right philosophy or something more mainstream. This is particularly true of Congressional R's who are forced to either kowtow or stand up to a radio personality. Those that choose to kowtow (most of them, apparently) increase the odds of that they will disenfranchise the remaining 'middle' in 2010/2012 and push them either toward centrist D's or apathy. Those that do not may face wacky, unelectable challengers from the even farther right with the same eventual outcome.

The best result would peel off moderates from the R party to form a more moderate face for the GOP is a win-win situation for the country. This does not appear to be happening as far as I can see, which is unfortunate.

Look for more deliberate Limbaugh cage-rattling in the runup to 2010.

Bradford said...

Judge Crater-

I couldn't agree more, and Beck making himself the face of Fox makes true conservatives (e.g., fiscal ones) squirm to the point of illness. Fox and Limbaugh are leading the few republicans further right, and away from the demographic of the country.

Judge C. Crater said...

Bradford: Agreed. Beck is leading the charge toward membership in the GOP as an indicator of mental illness.

markymark said...

My sense is that Obama has been the most bi-partisan President in that last 30 years at least.

First off, bi-partisan does not necesarily mean compromising in my view. I think it does mean taking into account other opinions, and I think Obama has done that. I think he has been less 'partisan' than any recent president I can think of, and certainly less partisan than I think Hillary Clinton would have been (for better or worse). I don't think Obama has initiated any of the minor skirmishes his administration has had, and I think guys like Limbaugh, and to an extent a few politicians, want the fight, want to oppose.

I think when you have large congressional majorities and have no need to deal with the GOP, why should Obama. He has shown some signs of discussing things with prominent Republicans.

Pragmatus said...

The premise that a single person can be "bipartisan" is a silly impossibility. The Congress as a whole may act in a bipartisan fashion, or it may not. In the present instance, it isn't. Whose fault is that? I don't know of any serious commentator that could blame that on the Democrats, when Republican can line themselves up 100% in opposition to the President's policies yet offer no alternative of their own.

Statler N Waldorf said...

I don't see bipartisanship as a virtue, the way the media makes it out to be. You'd think any idea, no matter how terrible, is a good one so long as both parties agree to it.

If that's the case, what do you thionk about the decision to authorize President Bush to make war with Iraq? That was bipartisan.

Politically, bipartisan gestures makes sense-it appeals to the people who only think in bumper sticker slogans, and have no intellectual depth whatsoever-of which there is a frighteningly high number in this country. To these people, if it sounds good, it must be true-which is why Bush got away with everything and will probably never be prosecuted. Sure, he fucked over the economy, murdered 4,000 Americans kids by sending them into Iraq and Afghanistan wiithout proper military equipment or even so much as a plan, sure he instigated hate and division against GLBT Americans, wiretapped everybody's phones and read their emails, curtailed free speech and civil liberties. But he gave us such nice sounding plattuitudes and spoke entirely in bumper stickers, so he must be a nice guy, right?

And that's what bipartisanship is. Fuck thinkingt he idea through or sticking to your principles-we just want something that sounds good and doesn't take more than thirty seconds to repeat.

Tony C. said...

@Alex S.:

Would Obama really spend political capital on Dodd?

If Obama has political capital a year from now, and Obama thinks that that spending political capital on Dodd would keep the seat Democratic instead of Republican, why exactly do you think he wouldn't do it?

I think it will cost Obama next to nothing to polish the appearance of Dodd and make him look like a leader. The alternative for Connecticut voters is a freshman, or a powerless Republican.

Obama doesn't have to stump for Dodd or even endorse him, he just has to appear with him a few times, and get congressional leaders to do what they want to do anyway, keep Dodd from losing his seat.

I think you make the mistake of thinking that how things are now is how things will be a year from now; but attitudes rise and fall, shift and change like the weather. I think the attitudes of today toward Dodd may be short-lived and easily fixed up.

SantaTurdo said...

I agree with statler 'the first' regarding the vacuity of the term 'b'. But I also think he actually likes Bush. A case of 'the lady doth protest too much' or of him being so alike to Bush that he hates him for that reason!

Stuart said...

Regarding Dodd, it would seem to me more likely that Obama (or, rather, Emmanuel) would rather have a freshman senator who thinks he owes the President his seat than someone like Dodd around.

So Rahm or Joe Biden has a quiet word with Bob Menendez and mentions that perhaps it might be best to seen what happens in the Connecticut primaries before throwing too much money at Dodd...clearing the way for, I dunno, Chris Murphy? to make a tilt at the seat.

Aranfell said...

I have a question on this statement from the end of the article:

"his strategy [is to] make a show of appealing to conservatives here and there, and perhaps avoid issues that are symbolically important to the left but which drain one's political capital"

I get the draining political capital part, but what are "symbolically important" issues that he is avoiding? Rick Warren's invocation was symbolic, but the others cited in the article all seem to have major impacts on real people, even removing "don't ask don't tell".

footstep said...

No spellcheck gives the impression of amateurism. Nate, hire a proof-reader or do a spell-check. RealClarPolitics?

LFC said...

Jon Stewart has an absolute classic take on how the Republicans, and right-wing in general, are acting. Here's the video at Comeday Central. You can shortcut to 3:20, but the whole video is worth it.

Money quote: "See, now you're in the MINORITY. It's supposed to taste like a s**t taco."

Tony C. said...

@Stuart:

You can't stop Dodd from running as an incumbent, and you don't want a bruising primary either. Emmanual would have to convince Dodd to retire, and I don't know how likely that is; if Dodd refuses and insists upon running, then Obama's best bet is to back him.

Hank said...

Why should Republicans engage at all in bipartisanship as either process OR outcome? They are down to 30% (or less) of the body politic and simply trying to keep the flock from scattering...running in all directions is a good metaphor. That's why you have Cheney and Rove and Gingrich and Windbaugh (none of whom hold office, authority, or apparently, responsibility) waving the boogie men to keep the G Gordon Liddy wing of the party convinced, the Dobson wing angry, and the Palin wing confused and frightened. Those groups don't want rational engagement, they want...well, they don't know what they want...but they're certainly willing to go dump tea in the water and pretend that they matter. This isn't a political party, it's a mob.

This is all about not being completely and utterly swept in 2010 and has NOTHING to do with current policy or decisions of governance. The Republicans have little in the way of credible policy to propose -- they are simply trying to stay within sight of the moderate independents that deserted them in droves over the last two elections. If they admit for an instant that they were wrong, those moderates will take it as confirmation of their move to the Democrats and will not return to the Republican fold for a generation. In the meantime, what's left of the Republican Party is a spinning, angry ball of collapsed political matter. A red dwarf, if you will. Unless Obama's administration commits a huge blunder somewhere along the line, the Republican party is a thing of the past. Maybe the grownups in the party will leave and start a new one while the radioactive products of the GOP implosion glow in the cooling pool of political backwaters.

Dvd Avins said...

Nate writes: "The object of the game, moreover, is not really to appeal to Republican voters, whose numbers are too scarce to make them politically relevant. Rather, it is to put on a good show for moderates and independents, in the hopes of placing sufficient pressure on moderate Democrats like Evan Bayh and moderate Republicans like Susan Collins to back the Administration's agenda."

Yes, that's the immediate goal. But I also think he's intentionally changing the environment to create niches for those who do want to find new solutions that incorporate valid points from more than one ideological perspective.

Hank said...

Dvd Avins said - "But I also think he's intentionally changing the environment to create niches for those who do want to find new solutions that incorporate valid points from more than one ideological perspective."

We can only hope.

Hu Chi said...

I think Obama does well to acknowledge that many of the principles of conservatism are worthwhile. As something of a flaming liberal, I feel that conservative values are far from sufficient to form a coherent worldview, but that doesn't mean that I fundamentally oppose those values.

Libertarians have a basically reasonable concept: people should be able to to what they want to do. What libertarians don't get is the degree to which a functioning society must act to restrain individual and corporate behavior in the interest of public welfare.

So I agree that people should be able to do what they want. That's freedom, a basic conservative/libertarian mantra. But as a liberal I have to add "within reason".

What does "within reason" mean? Let's talk about it.

Tony C. said...

@Hu Chi:

If I might, "within reason" contains the answer to your question, if we take "reason" to imply actual, logical, statistically relevant argument.

I am an atheist and will not talk religion; but what essentially all free societies make illegal are murder, physical coercion, purjury, theft and fraud. Most rights relate to these transgressions, and most laws are designed to prevent such transgressions in some degree. Laws against discrimination boil down to preventing asymmetric enforcement these laws.

If you want to talk about what "within reason" means, you start with these basics and work forward, but the end point is egalitarianism; people must be treated equally and one does not have the right to steal, defraud, or coerce others into service or reduced freedom. You can make an agreement to that effect; like paying somebody to work and requiring them to be on site, and if the employee doesn't do that he is stealing, and the state must enforce the contract (or void it as fraud, in some cases).

But essentially within reason means you need valid reasons for laws, not just emotions or fears or religious ideology. I would accept compelling statistics as a basis of law; that is essentially the basis of DWI laws. But I take the "within reason" requirement quite literally.

TommyReport said...

It doesn't really surprise me that some on the left are trying to smear Scott Rasmussen. The guy's record in the 2004 and 2008 presidential elections speaks for itself.

The biggest difference between Rasmussen and other pollsters, besides IVF, is the gap between Democrats and Republicans. Scott uses a 40/33 D/R split while other pollsters such as Daily Kos/Research 2K show Republicans at 22% or show a 15-20 percentage gap between Democrats and Republicans (CBS/NY Times with a 39/23 split and Newsweek with a 41/21 split).

PPP(D), ARG (who did very well in the 2008 presidential contest to Nate's chagrin), Democracy Corps(D), Fox News/Opinion Dynamics, and MSNBC/WSJ all show Obama between 55-58%, not too different from Scott in terms of Obama's approval numbers.

dre7861 said...

What I find completely amazing is that the Republicans have the nerve to lecture anyone on bipartisanship. It's kind of like having the Nazis lecture you on the importance of Jewish culture or Britney Spears take you to task on maorality and a stable home environment!

To Republicans bipartisanship means if they are in power do it my way or else. If they are not in power it means listen to my views and then do it my way or else.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Turkey was founded by a general who was wary of fundamentalist Islam. So much so, that he wrote into their constitution that the military was charged with the responsibility of deposing any fundamentalist Islamic government that might happen to come into power, either through democratic vote or through coup d'etat.

Now, we have a problem with fundamentalist christianity in this country. Unlike with Turkey, it doesn't go back to our founding, it's a much more recent phenomenon. Still, the founders did put certain checks against religious domination of the political sphere. The Constitution explicitly prohibits a religious test for public office, and the establishment clause prohibits the government from endorsing any particular religious faith's tenets or using them as a basis for law.

We have violated these two provisions repeatedly during the past 50 years, with increasing frequency. Unlike Atatürk, Washington never suggested that the Army should depose such theocrats. I'd like to think we're mature enough that we don't need them to.

As Americans, we have always been fiercely independent. So why are we now allowing the positions of the Vatican to play a role in our politics? The central argument against abortion? Religion. Civil Rights for GLBTs? Religion. Allowing the post office to deliver mail on Sundays? Religion. Having federal holidays like Easter and Christmas? Religion.

And not just all religions. There's no federal holiday taking place on Eid or Vesak or during Tét. WE don't listen to Episcopalians when they say they want to perform wedding ceremonies for GLBTs and have them just as legal as any other marriage. And I'm pretty sure Jews wouldn't care if the Post Office decided to deliver Sunday mail.

And it's even more specific than just the fundies-it's the fundies that have somehow married the idea of the christian god as the god of the merchant class-the god of money. We've gone alot farther than just putting "In God We Trust" on the money-we practically worship the money itself as if it were the god we're supposed to be trusting. Look at these megachurches, and these preachers with their bouffant hairdos and flashy suits-does that look like anything Jesus of Nazareth had in mind when he said it was harder for a camel to get through a needle's eye than for a rich fucker to get to heaven? DSo you really think the guy who hung out with John the Baptist would want something like the Vatican, with all it's gold inlays and marble floors?

Somehow though, these people have managed to put themselves forward as the authoritative voice of god; then, not content with spiritual domination, they've decided they want to control secular matters as well, pushing abstinence programs and suggesting that gay people can't get married because you can 'pray the gay away'.

Jesus was silent on the topics of abortion and homosexuality, but he did suggest that believers should obey secular laws-give to Caesar what is Caesar's, etc. He also suggested that his was not an earthly kingdom-as is, he didn't want a theocracy.

These perverse creatures, who seem to confuse Jesus with a CEO at a major investment firm, and want to influence our government-they're as dangerous to America as the Muslim theocrats Atatürk worried about in his country. And while I dislike the notion of military intervention in throwing these sons of bitches out of office-and replace them with what, a junta?-I do not want Obama to compromise with them. They only really worship the pursuit of money and power-the godhead is just something they paint over those things in hopes that people won't realize what they're doing before they get away with it. I don't want Obama to let them get away with it-expose Jindal and Palin for the thieves int he temple they are.

As a country, we're better off without extremist christians behind the wheels of power

Bradford said...

Tommyreport-

Have you ever been pooled by Scotty Ras? If you ever have, you will not doubt his clear bias.

As for his polling, who was right in the last 30 days of this election?

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/2008%20Oct%20weekly%20poll%20trends-thumb-550x412.png

David said...

"He made that the core pledge of his candidacy, the principal reason he should receive the nomination and ultimately the presidency . . . "

Maybe Mr. Cost needs to review the campaign speech tapes again. That sure wasn't the principal reason I voted for Obama.

Jason Wiener said...

I'd rather post this comment at RCP, but since I can't find a link to do that, I'll post here.

Mr. Cost loses me almost right away when he argues that "...politicians' commitment to bipartisanship is usually situational. They support it when they are in the minority because they want to move the policy needle in their direction. They oppose it when they are in the majority because it would push that needle in the other direction."

Republicans are in the minority right now, so by his logic they should be playing a more bi-partisan game. He then goes on to pretend that the "takes two to tango" argument is somehow about how Republicans shut Democrats out when they were in power, so it's okay to reciprocate now. Not true (actually, true, but not the complaint). The complaint is that current Republicans (the ones that by Mr. Cost's logic should be looking for bipartisan concessions) are being intransigent, obstructionist, partisans. Mr. Silver has provided many good examples in this post.

I consider myself a moderate and an independent (I'm registered with no party), but I'm from the SF Bay Area so that means I'm to the left of most of the nation but to the right of most of my neighbors. I'm exactly the sort of voter that bipartisan efforts should appeal to. And I'm exactly the type of voter Republicans are losing through their tactics (and I believe it's tactics, not strategy).

When I see all Republicans uniformly lining up against every bill, I conclude their goal/hope is that Obama fails. And not just how Limbaugh said that he wants Obama to fail to enact policies he disagrees with--I think they want Obama to fail to improve the conditions for Americans in any way. I think they want 2010 or 2012 (or later) to be as toxic for Democrats as 2008 was for Republicans, and they see this as the way to return to power. This is obviously dangerous to the average voter (who cares more about a roof over their head, clothes on their back, and food on their table than whether a D or R is running the country), but I think it's also dangerous to the future of their party. They'd not only have to hope that conditions get worse, they have to pin the blame on Obama and not their obstructionist tactics. That might happen, but Obama's a skilled politician who will at the very least make that very difficult.

Sorry for the long comment, sometimes I fool myself into thinking I have something of value to say, and I get a little carried away.

TommyReport said...

Bradford,

Where is the bias in the question "do you approve or disapprove of President Obama's performance?" Are you suggesting that Scott is asking something significantly different from the hypothetical question that I posed?

What is your chart supposed to show? Your chart shows Obama's lead to be pretty consistent for Rasmussen in the month of October compared to other pollsters. Or do you prefer Daily Kos/Research 2K reading of the election that has McCain/Palin closing a double digit lead in half in a month?

TommyReport said...

Here's a question for Silver and some of you folks here who want to smear Rasmussen. Since Palin has been brought up in this thread by some liberals here, what is your explanation for why Palin is a net plus among indies in every poll conducted in 2009 that shows its splits among D/R/I?

Among Indies

PPP(D): 47-43
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_National_318.pdf

Fox News/Opinion Dynamics: 46-42
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/040209_FNCPoll.pdf

Rasmussen: 61-37 (you need to be a premium member to access the
crosstabs)
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/republi
cans_like_gop_s_conservative_direction_democrats_don_t

The fourth poll conducted this year than included a Palin question was Newsweek in February. Newsweek had her overall number at 44-42 but didn't provide the D/R/I numbers.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/188005

nova_middle_man said...

@ Huchi

To me that means not infringing on the rights of others

So on some hot button social issues for me that means

no problem with gay marriage

pro-life I believe the fetus is a person with rights

pro-death penalty someone has infringed on the rights of another

pro-gun until you prove otherwise in favor of not giving guns to criminals

That also means to me

lower taxes in general = less government interference

I have noticed a trend that people are in favor of government acting as a referee of sorts. I can support that somewhat under the argument of government protecting the rights of others. Its a gray area as to the extent and scope especially related to business and free enterprise and entrepenuership which are cornerstones of this country

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Didn't mean to strike a nerve.

I would just like some analytical work done on Rasmussen's polling is all and try and determine if there is any sort of logical explanation why his approval and favorability polls are so far off from everyone elses on an almost consistent basis. Possibly the analysis will find nothing slanted in his line of questioning.

True, his election result were fairly spot on BUT, they were also in line with many other pollsters on a frequent basis. Now, he is consistently on the fringes of the polling numbers.

So, if you take my wanting an explanation of the delta between him and other pollsters as a smear, then so be it.

The Contrarian said...

Having federal holidays like Easter and Christmas? Religion.

Check again, d-bag. Easter is not a federal holiday.

Bradford said...

Do you prefer IBD/TIPP over the last month of the election? The point is, the polls were everywhere and we take whomever got the final datapoint correct as the holy grail...

I was referring to ACTUALLY TAKING a Rasmusen poll. Try ti sometime if he calls, you will have litle doubt of his position on most, if not all, questions.

Specifically to the presidential tracking question - the real point is how it is formed within a string of questions, and why did he rate Bush higher than most and Obama lower tyhan anyone? Hmmm, just coincidence, right? LOL!

Wayward Son said...

Scott uses a 40/33 D/R split

This is true for his target sample population.. well, the actual April numbers are 38.7 D/33.2 R.. but it's been around 40/33 prior to that.

However, in his own words..

"Please keep in mind that figures reported in this article are for all adults, not Likely Voters. Republicans are a bit more likely to participate in elections than Democrats."

The shenanigans Scott played with voter ID in the months prior to the election.. eliciting a 'McCain is tied!!' Drudge story.. make me very suspicious of a thumb on the scale. At least, up until the final few polling cycles, where his reputation begins to be on the line and where a reckoning at the ballot box is about to come due.

DermottTrellis said...

@nova - a tad inconsistent, aren't you?

A fetus is a person? What is a woman?

You don't like infringing on the rights of others, but it sounds like you are just dandy with a fetus infringing on the rights of a woman.

You don't like government interference, but it sounds like you're tres cool with the government interfering with a woman's bodily autonomy.

Geoff said...

TommyReport-

Nobody here is going to deny that Ras is good at polling elections. But, he is consistently bad at polling non-electoral public opinion. He words questions very poorly, which inherently introduces a bias to the answers.

TommyReport said...

Geoff,

Fair enough....I just fail to see how a question about a politician's approval numbers could be biased. I'll acknowledge that his other questions about policies can be framed in a way more favorable to conservatives but I would hope those on this blog would acknowledge that an approval/disapproval question is difficult to frame in a way that is biased.

The Contrarian said...

Geoff,

And nobody here is going to deny you're a fucking ass-stain. You are a fucking radical who has an obvious bias against this country. Traitor!

Bradford said...

Tommy-

I think you missed my point. It is very easy to frame questions PRIOR to the approval ratings question that will skew the result...

The Contrarian said...

You don't like infringing on the rights of others, but it sounds like you are just dandy with a fetus infringing on the rights of a woman.

Only a subhuman fuckburger would make a statement so ridiculous. Yeah, how dare that fetus infringe on the rights of that woman, who is having a baby probably as a result of getting loaded on $3 wine and laying on her back spread eagle during freshman year for the first fratboy fuck-up to tell her she's "barnyard pretty", not bad for a horsebanging skank. I mean, damn, that fetus is totally infringing on that bitch's rights. How dare that egg come rolling down the pipe right when Jr. Numbskull fired his money shot of gooey madness while loaded on Natty Light. That fetus is surely to blame for the tryst of two drunken collegians who prefer coitus in a maggot-infested shithole of a frathouse basement.


wv: socio, as in sociopath - a good description of DermottTrellis who finds conception the fault of the future baby and rights-deny oppression for those lathering up in a big batch of good ol' fuckbutter.

TommyReport said...

Bradford,

So when Rasmussen called you, he asked the policy questions prior to the approval/disapproval question...am I supposed to take your word for it? I'm sure someone else would have documented this practice by Scott and you certainly have a link that would back up your claim....

Bradford said...

Tommy-

I have not taken his daily poll, I was lucky enough to take his highly partisan anti-EFCA poll. His numbers for EFCA made sense only in the context of his poll, I expect the same is true of his daily poll. He could also skew by just calling more repubs and not correcting - anyone know if he uses partisan ID to correct this question?

Bradford said...

A permanent democratic majority?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/13/pemanent-democratic-major_n_186257.html

I think it is a bit too early, but all demographic and cultural changes point the democrat's way!

The Contrarian said...

A permanent democratic majority?

Yes, two elections chock-full of victories for Demcrats and their winning ways are guaranteed well into the future.

If there's anything that the 2006/2008 elections have taught us, it's that Democrats will hold a majority status for at least the next 1,000 years.

The Contrarian said...

Also, I'm (and millions more) more concerned with becoming a permanent third-world banana republic than whether or not we'll see a "permanent democratic majority."

The Contrarian said...

Of course, assuming you didn't get this by my insinuations and not-so-subtle hints, the relegation to permanent third-world banana republic status should correlate rather strongly to that permanent democratic majority.

Bradford said...

Ummmm - Contrarian, try READING the article you are commenting on.

LFC said...

TommyReport said... The biggest difference between Rasmussen and other pollsters, besides IVF, is the gap between Democrats and Republicans. Scott uses a 40/33 D/R split while other pollsters such as Daily Kos/Research 2K show Republicans at 22% or show a 15-20 percentage gap between Democrats and Republicans (CBS/NY Times with a 39/23 split and Newsweek with a 41/21 split).

Interestingly, the article Bradford posted quotes a D/R split of 41%/27% (with 32% listed as swing voters). That's a 14-point gap. Per your post, Rasmussen uses a 7-point gap, or half the size it should be.

You also post disapprovingly that others use a 15-20 point gap. While 20 is too high, 15 would be almost perfect.

All of the above assumes that the paper quoted is correct about the current D/R split, of course. I don't know if that source is definitive, but I've been reading for at least a year or two that the D/R gap has been increasing to the detriment of the Republicans.

Lorne Guyland said...

COPY EDITING: Nate, I'm pretty sure in your "Example C" paragraph, that inscrutable (meaning "impossible to understand or interpret"), was not the word you were looking for. Not sure what you had in mind - "indispensable"? "irreducible"? "Essential" would probably have been best.

I know everyone hates language police. But when the word you chose means the opposite of what you're trying to say...

Nick said...

What isn't clear to me, however, is what exactly folks like Cost would have liked the Administration to have done differently.

It's perfectly clear - if Obama doesn't capitulate to the Republicans on ever issue, he's being too "partisan."

That's what they want, and that's how they're trying to frame the debate.

juvanya said...

Nate,

This is so much better and more interesting than some of your other tl;dr posts. Maybe it's the subject matter, but some of them...My Eyes Glazed Over. *_*

TommyReport said...

"I expect the same is true of his daily poll. He could also skew by just calling more repubs and not correcting - anyone know if he uses partisan ID to correct this question?"

So Bradford, you are willing to make assertions and make assumptions regarding someone's credibility based on absolutely no evidence?

LFC, you know the 2008 exit poll showed a gap of 39/32 D/R.

It's funny how you guys love focusing on Rasmussen. His disapproval numbers are higher than others but there are plenty of polls showing Obama's approval at around the same percentage as Rasmussen. I've already cited to them but I'll cite again: PPP(D), Democracy Corps(D), ARG, Fox News/Opinion Dynamics, and MSNBC/WSJ.

TommyReport said...

Anyone in the crowd here want to take a stab at the question I posed regarding the data on Sarah Palin and independents from scientific polls conducted this year?

Or would we rather continue making assertions without any evidence as Bradford just did when he tried to smear Rasmussen with his assertion that Rasmussen was asking his policy questions before asking his approval/disapproval question?

Bradford said...

Tommy-

Go read my posts - I said he COULD do that to change the numbers. Do you have any other explanation as to why Scotty Rasmussen, the admitted evangelical and Fox News contributor, had much higher numbers for Bush than Obama when compared to other organizations? Do you have a fact yourself or just random BS assertions.

Palin, who cares...

Bradford said...

Tommy-

I am simply attempting to explain Rasmussen numbers that are clear outliers and I am putting points out for discussion. Why are his numbers outliers? Can you explain it?

Todd Dugdale said...

nmm wrote:
"its obvious that Washington is still broken within a couple of years the Rs will have some more control again and the pendulum will swing back the other way."

This "pendulum" isn't some kind of guarantee. Something has to change. For example, when the GOP brought the evangelicals into the fold or Obama mobilised the minority vote, the pendulum swung.

The Republicans have moved away from the centre and "purified" their ranks. When you are the minority, you don't win more power by thinning your numbers and waiting for the guarantee of the pendulum swing.

The single mom with a high-school education is just not going to read Atlas Shrugged. We are not going to go back to Ward Cleaver's America of the '50s, either (which never really existed in the first place).

At this point, the GOP is just not presenting itself as a viable option to anyone who may become disgruntled with Obama in the future. Certainly not to minorities, in any case.

Demographics alone argue against the "pendulum effect", unless Republicans move back towards the centre.

The Contrarian said...

Ummmm - Contrarian, try READING the article you are commenting on.

Ummm, I'm commenting on your assertion of a "permanent democratic majority", shitbrick. That's a bit of a misnomer, anyway.

Define permanent. Wait, I'll do it for you. According to one online source, it's continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change.

But for how long? If it's 8-16 years, that's hardly worth raising an eyebrow. If it's 16-50 years, it's worth taking not but hardly unprecedented. Actually, it's quite common for political cycles to endure that long. If it's more than 50 years, we might have something historic to talk about. Otherwise, you're just keeping your gums moist.

Define "democratic" as well. I notice that's with a small d. Hey, Republicans are democratic. They're just not Democratic. Being a Democrat is in contrast to being a Republican, Libertarian, Greener, and so forth. Being democratic is in contrast to being a socialist, fascist, and so forth.

The topic needs to be more on permanent shifts in ideology as opposed to political affiliation. Progressives are often the victim of their own success. Consider this:

Progressives typically work against the status quo, which is generally upheld by conservatism. Sometimes, the status quo is best, in my opinion (e.g. the protection of our right to bear arms) and I feel should be preserved mostly as it currently is in the Constitution and has been upheld by the SCOTUS, whereas there are other things the progressive mentality was best (e.g. abolishing slavery, striving for civil rights across all demographics).

Progressives are consigned to always cycling their way out of political dominance by virtue of their own successes (and consequently, their failures). Rarely do issues take one giant step in one direction to only turn back 180 degrees soon thereafter (Prohibition is about the only one that comes to mind).

Ergo, the progressives champion something that they perceive to be wrong. Let's say a current example is equal rights for the LGBT community when it comes to marriage. Let's assume that a law granting equal accesss to marriage and its associated rights is truly inevitable as we're told. I'm not arguing for or against the merits of such a proposition, I'm just saying consider the consequences of a progressive success at getting that accomplished.

Once that's the law of the land, do you really think the country will take a hard-line stance against it down the road and suddenly revoke those rights that had initially been given? I hardly think so. Think about the Civil Rights Act and how that was an issue in the 1960s (and still is, to an extent). Look at the people - politicians included - who vehemently opposed basic human rights to fellow citizens (minorities).

Don't you think it would be political anathema for anyone to suggest today that the civil rights platform should be revoked? So once it's off the table as an issue or cause for progressives to champion, they lose their luster and their ability to provide a wedge issue to gain people's support. Now, they may have gotten something passed or changed the public's mind on something that was for the betterment of the country (in their own opinion or for real), but it's no longer something they can use as their calling card.

Naturally, then, after they've had a few "successes", they run short of "status quo" things that the public is willing to change. Thus, conservatives take and/or hold power until the next slew of items comes along to provide a solid enough progressive agenda that the public is willing to side with and move in that direction.

So back to my original point, shouldn't the topic be permanent shifts in ideology and political dogma and not in the parties themselves and the power they yield.

fred said...

Contrarian-

Again, read the post at the link and it defines permanent, democratic, and details why. Can you tell me why they are wrong instead of arguing with yourself about points irrelevant tot he discussion?

fred said...

"So back to my original point, shouldn't the topic be permanent shifts in ideology and political dogma and not in the parties themselves and the power they yield."

No, as permanent shifts in ideology in this country generally favor one party or the other. The Reagan coalition of crazed right wing religionists and crazed low taxers worked for a couple decades. Now the change is to a darker country (more hispanic), a youth culture that strongly favors dems - particularly on social issues, and a country where even the white surbanban vote has fled the repubs. That COULD signal long term change like Reagan did.

nova_middle_man said...

The Rs still hold the ultimate weapon on taxes though.

Ask how concerned people are about the environment and global warming when they find out everything will cost more and energy taxes will go up.

Same for healthcare. A majority has healthcare. Is the majority going to be happy when costs go up for them.

For the record I'm not gloating. I'm just stating a fact that a majority are motivated by self interest. Obama rose to power on promising a chicken in every pot and lower taxes. The math doesn't add up something is going to give.

The Contrarian said...

fred,

I can tell that you are one dumb motherfucker.

Tony C. said...

@nova:

I'm just stating a fact that a majority are motivated by self interest.

Absolutely true.

The math doesn't add up.

The math adds up fine, you just prefer to think it won't, or you make wrong assumptions about what is "acceptable" that are contrary to your assertion that most people are motivated by self-interest.

Obama can regulate the hell out of healthcare, and raise taxes on the top 5% of earners, and guess what? According to your philosophy of self-interest, 95% of people get cheap healthcare. Now, isn't that in the self-interest of the majority?

Of course next you will start to speculate about where that approach leads, but of course your speculation is not based on any facts you can support, just your assertion and ideology, which is flawed as well.

It is in the self-interest of the 95% to tax and regulate the 5%. Every argument I have ever heard against it is based on patently false suppositions and hypotheticals.

The Contrarian said...

Tony C. is another loon gone batshit crazy. There's not enough money to pay for this shit. Plain. And. Simple. You can implement a marginal tax rate of 100% on all money earned above $250,000 per year and it won't generate enough tax revenue to pay for that fuckturd's budget in the coming years.

That's not hypothetical. That's a fact. Criminy, it hurts to see dumb fuckheads like Tony C. spouting more lies and bullshit. Makes me sick.

Tony C. said...

@Contrarian:

Poor baby. Momma take away your bottle? Awww, poor drunken baby.

The Contrarian said...

Haha!

Better to be accused of being a baby than a retarded fuckburger.

I noticed you didn't cite any statistical evidence to support how the math does add up. So I'm assuming you just made shit up. In which case, you are about as relevant as a diarrhea-gurgling maggot.

Bronxx said...

Please remember, do not feed the trolls.

The Contrarian said...

If you were intelligent enough to actually look up IRS data, you'd see that a tax policy that levied a 100% tax on all taxable income above $500,000 in the US in 2006 would have only generated an additional $1.3 trillion in revenue.

Keep in mind that the 2006 federal budget was about $2.7 trillion. The federal budget is projected at $4 trillion in 2010, right? Granted, that includes some of the additional stimulus spending that's not supposed to be permanent, but is that sustainable even in the short run to rack up so much debt?

Let's put it into perspective. You would have had to have taxed every dollar of every amount earned above $75,000 to meet that $4 trillion need.

Now, get a clue, limpdick.

Rick said...

Hardly radical? How can anyone of rational mind and a straight face not consider the complete re-architecting of medical care, along with cap and trade and the variety of lesser, stridently left-wing social priorities currently being championed by this administration as anything other than radical? Agree or disagree with its intent, there's no debating that this administration's agenda is dramatically, spectacularly liberal, which by any rational definition is indeed radical.

The Contrarian said...

Please remember, do not feed the trolls.

Exactly! And remember trolls are often turdburglers who rarely, if ever, offer sound quantitative assessments or otherwise logical arguments using facts and figures and simply attack other posters by calling the "drunken babies"....

@Tony C. /wink

...or they are posters who give us the gratuitous drive-by reminder about how such people shouldn't be "fed" when they themselves haven't offered anything of substance to the argument.

@Bronxx /wink

The Contrarian said...

Amen to Rick. Agree or disagree with the intent of these policies or their rightness or wrongness, that's one thing. But to sugarcoat and pass this agenda off as moderate and doing so while placating the electorate with populist reform while sullying the opposition with accusations of extremism is nothing short of political blasphemy. Call a spade a spade.

The Obama agenda is radical. If by radical, you mean a radical change from the status quo. If W, Cheney and modern Republicans are as hardcore rightwing batshit crazy as you want people to believe, why in God's name would you want to be moderate anyway? Wouldn't you want to be diametrically opposed to their policies in every single way and give every hint of differentiation from the Republican agenda by portraying as radically liberal a platform as possible? You really don't want to push anything moderate, do you?

I'll answer that for you. Of course you don't. It's just a label to trick the 30%-40% of the daydreaming idiots who still vote into siding with you when you're pushing something far more sinister. The agenda is hardly moderate. It is radical. That's a fact.

Tony C. said...

@Contrarian:

You seem to have forgotten, that income is $5T, but that does not include corporate earnings, which brings us to $12.5T. You also choose to ignore the fact that deficit spending is borrowed money, we only have to pay a fairly low interest rate on it, and we can pay it back over time. Obama has explicitly ruled out raising the budget on a permanent basis, the budget is increased to prevent a depression.

Now, as far as your little hate filled tantrums: I know, and I presume every adult here knows, you are just filled with so much self-hatred it is overflowing into our thread. Don't worry, we don't take it personally. We presume you are in psychological pain, that is probably what is limiting your comprehension as well. You have my pity.

Todd Dugdale said...

So apparently the big strategy for the Republican return to power is to call Obama 'radical'.

If only someone would have tried this big strategy in the recent presidential election, think of how differently things would have turned out.

In fact, the Republicans could try calling Obama a radical, a terrorist, a traitor, and inform people that he is secretly a Muslim. That way they'll be bound to win!

The secret ingredient missing from this grand strategy is, of course, credibility. The GOP has none of it with the public, and the fringe of the Party has even less credibility than the Party in general.

You have to do better than making your case to The Big Wingnut In The Sky. He might give you a "terrorist fist-jab", but no electoral votes go along with that.

Perhaps if you waved some tea bags around....

bawlexus91 said...

I love that it took Nate an entire ESSAY to explain something that doesn't really make much sense. The fellow over at RCP was making a point that is easy for EVERYONE, Republican or Democrat, to understand: that Obama hasn't been quite above partisanship in the way he PROMISED he would.

He made that point well. Nate goes around his ass to make a not very good point - c'mon Nate, I didn't realize you were quite that partisan yourself. Even you must admit that Obama hasn't been quite as partisan as he promised, and that that's bad.

Todd Dugdale said...

n_m_m wrote:
"The Rs still hold the ultimate weapon on taxes though."

Not so much.

"A new Gallup Poll finds 48% of Americans saying the amount of federal income taxes they pay is "about right," with 46% saying "too high" -- one of the most positive assessments Gallup has measured since 1956."

"In this year's poll, slim majorities of both lower- and middle-income Americans say they pay about the right amount of taxes, while upper-income Americans tend to think they pay too much."

That "ultimate weapon" isn't looking as good now, is it? Surprisingly, only 53% of those making more than $75K/yr say that their taxes are too high - the exact same percentage of Republicans who say their taxes are too high.

In fact, the percentage of Republicans that say their taxes are too high has actually dropped 5% since 2008.

And "outrage over high taxes" is the ostensible point of the "tea parties".

Mike in Maryland said...

nova_middle_man said...
I believe the fetus is a person with rightsSo, is that position based in the 'unchanging' Catholic position on contraception, birth control and abortion? That a fetus is a human from the moment of fusion between egg and sperm?

May I suggest that you do some study of Pedro Hispano (later Pope John XXI) and his recipe book for pre- and post-coital contraception? It might change your opinion about the 'unchanging' Catholic position on contraception, birth control and abortion.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

helmut said...

Actually, the logic of Schmitt's claim (setting asside the question of veracity), is not necessarily that, once "drawn out," bad faith on the part of conservatives then, for Obama, legitimates a partisan approach. That doesn't have to be Obama's reaction.

In fact, Obama seems to have a knack for taking the most well-reasoned form of conservatism and making that his political foil. The problem is that few conservatives appear to be upholding its most reasonable forms - or at least a form willing to engage in good faith policy discussions.

To float a really counterintuitive notion,... because his foil is well-reasoned conservatism rather than actual conservatism, Obama may very well be the best thing conservatism has going for it as a living, coherent political philosophy.

Ema Nymton said...

Contrarian, just a quick note. Fuck off and die. Seriously.

nova_middle_man said...

Heres the key takeaway from the Gallop poll

"Obama has promised not to raise taxes on all but the wealthiest Americans. There are concerns that his proposed budget relies too much on borrowed money, and the president may be forced to raise taxes on a greater percentage of Americans, or to scale back his plans to reform the healthcare system and invest in education and alternative energy."

As I have been saying the math doesn't add up

Tony C. said...

@nova:

And I say the math adds up just fine, and those concerns are unfounded. The Republicans are spouting the same old tripe as always, using scare tactics to say we cannot afford it. Those scare tactics work with a certain percentage of the population that still gives them credit. Those are the "concerns".

But arithmetic and logic are not up for a vote! Either we can afford it or we cannot, and any actual analysis of the actual proposals, whether done at a broad level or in mind-numbing detail, all say the same thing: We can afford it.

That doesn't mean it has no impact, it doesn't mean that taxes will stay the same, it might mean tax increases. But afford does not mean it is free. The question is whether we are able to pay the interest and eventually pay back the loans and the answer is yes, without a doubt, we can do that.

The Contrarian said...

The question is whether we are able to pay the interest and eventually pay back the loans and the answer is yes, without a doubt, we can do that.Wrong. Liar. Quit spouting bullshit, douchebag!

Brian said...

The game theoretic solution for Republicans is to portray Obama as being partisan no matter what the reality is.

Obama had his campaign promises which constitute areas where he has little leeway for compromise. For the most part, he's kept those promises.

In areas where has worked in a bipartisan fashion (see the stimulus package), he saw Republicans influence legislation only to vote against it, essentially watering down what Democrats actually wanted.

Obama's game theoretic solution is to continue with the bipartisan rhetoric and extend his olive branch; but ask Democratic leaders in Congress not to make any concessions to the Republicans at all.

As long as the Republicans are strident obstructionists, they have little credibility with the electorate on the topic of bipartisanship.

Bronxx said...

@Contrarian:
Wrong. Liar.Take an economics/finance course if you don't understand TonyC's very simple point. You either honestly don't understand the simple principle at work or are willfully professing ignorance.


The sad thing is, Contrarian, when you aren't drooling curse words and frothing at the mouth, you actually add something constructive to the conversation. Many of us may disagree with your POV, but that's what honest disagreements and a multi-party system are all about.

Thomas said...

Just ignore, Contrarian.

He should be stoned to death along with about another 20 million "conservatives" who are ruining this country and are the bane of my existence.

Tony C. said...

Poor Contrarian; nothing to say, but so much anger to vent. You must be one truly miserable individual. My sympathies.

Thomas said...

Give me a ton of TNT and a megachurch filled with people like Contrarian, Sarah Palin, and Rick Warren and I'll rid this country and the world of a disease. Nothing would make me fill better than to kill off those uneducated imps by the thousands.

Tony C. said...

@Brian:

Actually, I think Obama's best game plan is a little bit of deception: Bipartisan rhetoric, sure, but also get some of the hard left stuff to make a little progress and garner a little press, so his "bipartisan compromise" is to throw away what he never thought would fly anyway. Put up a few straw men for them to knock down, so you can claim they were victorious and you "compromised."

EJK said...

Nate, I love you and look forward to your awesome genius in future elections. But politically, this site has become nothing but an extension of the DLC. (Even that gasbag Keith Olbermann has started to wake up.)

Barack Obama is a goddamned fraud. 538 pretends to be a progressive(sort of) website. Let me begin with a simple question: why should progressives support directions and policies which are not progressive?

First, the man. NO ONE in modern US history has been blessed with Barack Obama's political skills. His intelligence, charm, elegance, grace, life experience. and good humor. Unmatched. He's the product of two parents who(in their very different ways) were genuine activists for the Left in the 60s and 70s. And no presidential candidate in US political history has written a book as astonishing and moving as "Dreams from My Father". For me, it was the reading of that book which forced me to always give this man the benefit of the doubt, in the face of all kinds of hints he wasn't what he pretended to be, hints available all through 2007 and 2008. (BTW, the true stupidity of the Right claiming "dictatorship" and "totalitarianism" from this man, who always appeals to decent and thoughtful instincts is, well, as brain-dead as the Right always is.)

Second, the opportunity. Take Reconstruction, the TR/Progressive period, 1933, the JFK/RFK/MLK/Malcolm 60s. If you combine the nation-wide backlash against all Bush/Cheney represents, the two slogging inconclusive wars, and most importantly the world-wide economic collapse which occurred last autumn(a collapse in which the villains were quite obvious), has there ever been a greater opportunity to lead the country strongly toward all things progressive than this man had with his election?

(And btw, we can parse words all we want. But Obama ran as a transformative, even at times a revolutionary[in an American context]candidate. That was his music.)

Yet what has occurred? What has he done with the seething hatred of all things unfair and fixed in the country, the hatred toward all things, you could say, Reaganesque?

Nothing. He has done nothing with it. All major positions have been filled by retreads, Clinton retreads, Wall Street retreads, even Bush retreads. What positions or directions has he taken which can be called more than timid? And most positions have been less than timid, most have been right-of-center or reactionary. (Torture, spying on the US, Bush/Cheney crimes, expanding the Central Asian wars, killing Card Check, now backing off on Cap-and-Trade, increasing the Pentagon budget, replacing Blackwater with a new[Chicago-based!] mercenary force.)

And to look at his response to the Wall Street-induced world-wide collapse is to vomit:

Appoints the same people who designed and implemented the disaster.

No investigations of any kind.

No investigations of any kind

No investigations of any kind

No firings of anyone(Oh, wait except for members of the auto industry)

A hidden, secret, completely unaccountable transfer of trillions of dollars from the taxpayers to the very people that caused the collapse.

No new laws passed or proposed(as of today) to change or re-regulate anything.

No signs of new employment, increase in wages for workers, worker safety protections, the strenghening of unions(which is the ONLY way to reverse the total corporatization of the US).

But PLENTY of signs that the Vampire Class is going to get away scott-free. Examples: here in NYC, the dramatic drop in rents has not only reversed, but has started to creep up beyond where they were last summer; the mind-boggling announcements by many banks and credit companies of INCREASED usury rates and fees; remember all those incredible deals and sales we were offered in November, December and January? Where are they now?

The sighs of relief can be heard loud and clear here in Manhattan.

Regarding comparisons, we do not have to look to Cuba or Stalin or Mao or whatever. Just to our own history. Yes, Wall Street and the Hedge Funds may have thought they had bought themselves a President. But that is what High Finance thought in 1933. And before long, some members of that class were conspiring with members of the military to overthrow FDR. (See Butler, Smedley) In 1960, we had a man who the Mob and National Security State thought was in their pocket. Turned out very different. At every opportunity Kennedy had to use massive violence(see the Somali pirates), he refused, Laos, the Bay of Pigs, the Berlin Wall, Indonesia, the missiles in Cuba, and Vietnam. Meanwhile, the Attorney General of the US went after everyone: the mob, US Steel, the Fed, Big Oil.

Where is the Bobby Kennedy and his Get Hoffa Squad in the context of this Administration and the far far far worse crimes caused to most of the world by the Banksters??

And the argument that he hasn't had enough time does not wash, because of the awesome and historic decisions he has already made. Obama will be -- and should be --judged by only one thing, due to the economic circumstances of his taking power: did he break the back of the Financial Oligarchy which over a 30-year period caused the US to be a Third World State, or did he strengthen it?

I think we already know the answer to that question.

And how he has boxed himself in! Is there anyone at 538 who thinks he'll have the money to fund a national health care plan? Or the rebuilding of the country's infrastructure? Or moving the society away from oil and gas? Rebuild public education? Heal the states?

(IMHO, this is the "real reason" for the timing of this convenient "collapse".)

I guess it's possible he could "turn". But if so, the way he's been mousetrapped by the Establishment, he'd have to start talking like Noam Chomsky, and that would last about 3 paragraphs before the feed would go dead and we'd find out the next day he was blown up by Somali pirates.

The saddest part of all this is what will happen when Obama -- who will be seen as representing "liberalism" no matter how far to the right he goes -- exits the stage. I was sure that, no matter his failings, he would at least change the parameters of acceptable policy for his successors. But he is already moving the goalposts further and further to the right, as did Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter. We know what followed then. What makes you think that a post-Obama world will not also leave us with a 2016 version of Reagan or Gingrich or George W. Hitler?

Ken Mortimer said...

Tony C.
Actually, I think Obama's best game plan is a little bit of deception: Bipartisan rhetoric, sure, but also get some of the hard left stuff to make a little progress and garner a little press, so his "bipartisan compromise" is to throw away what he never thought would fly anyway. Put up a few straw men for them to knock down, so you can claim they were victorious and you "compromised."I think you're right, and I also think Obama is doing that to a certain extent already, even with his own base.
DC has forgotten how to play sleight-of-hand power politics and the White House knows this. So while many are occupied with day-to-day politics, Obama is getting things done, rightly guessing that the politics will be forgotten in the long run.

The Contrarian said...

Poor Contrarian; nothing to say, but so much anger to vent. You must be one truly miserable individual. My sympathies.Hey, dickface, you have had even less to say. You just keep repeating "We can pay for it!" over and over again as if it's a logical argument or the repetitiveness makes it true.

I love the projections of "anger" and "misery" too. True sign of a weak position in an internet forum. You can't come up with a logical rebuttal or state your case quantitatively, evidently you're too much of a goody two-shoes to hurl insults, and you don't want to be come off looking like the internet tough guy by making idle threats, so you pacify me with your psychoanalysis. No thanks. I'd prefer not to have a douche with an IQ of 45 tell me I'm a "sad, lonely" person because he can't think of anything else intelligent or witty to say. You are a waste of time and are truly the one who is pathetic and miserable.

You don't have my sympathies, however. You're a piece of shit.

The Contrarian said...

Nothing would make me fill better than to kill off those uneducated imps by the thousands.And nothing would make me "feel" better than if you could spell something properly before hurling an insult about being uneducated.

Tony C. said...

@Contrarian:

You still have my sympathies, anybody whose emotions overwhelm them as much as your emotions overwhelm you is, in a literal sense, pathetic. I presume you think that "hurling insults" is in some way effective. And of course it is, just not in the sense of effective argument: denigrating others makes you feel good.

Well, making a good and logical argument makes me feel good; but apparently that is not a route available to you. Perhaps you lack the intelligence, or perhaps the facts won't cooperate with your preconceived agenda. So you take the one route that does make you feel good, invective and a pathetic attempt to be creative with it.

Now I didn't say you were "sad and lonely", you said that. Which makes me think you translated my assessment into what the truth was for you, and then denied it.

So, I am sorry you are sad, I am sorry you are lonely, I am sorry your only entertainment is trying to trigger negative emotions in others.

You have my pity. I hope your life improves.

The Contrarian said...

What mind-numbing hubris!

And you have the arrogance to talk down to me as if I'm your subordinate. Fuck you. So what if I talk shit. It's in no way an indictment of my intelligence.

And the self-assessment of "making a good and logical argument makes me feel good" is laughable. Repeating worthless left-wing talking points on an obscure page of a days-old post in a political blog that amount to nothing more than a pipe dream (and are blatantly false!) and getting your jollies off as a result speaks far more to your "patheticness."

I never said I was "sad and lonely" either. I'm not. I merely used that as an example of the type of insult you were hurling with your "miserable" and "pathetic" schtick. Any logical person could see that there could be a possible correlation between all of those adjectives.

You don't have my pity. I hope your life gets worse. Preferably, you'd get hit by a tractor-trailer.

The Contrarian said...

denigrating others makes you feel goodNo. What makes me feel good, or at least gives me a laugh, is making a couple of informed points but otherwise hurling uber-vitriolic rhetoric and dropping f-bombs and other assorted swear words on your ass with reckless abandon, and you call me out as unintelligent, uninformed, unable to make a logical or coherent argument, miserable, and pathetic...pretty much calling me everything but "troll deluxe"...yet YOU STILL engage me in conversation.

If I'm such a pathetic ignorant schmuck and you are such an enlightened brilliant academic who "feels good" parading your informed arguments to trample down ignorant mooks like myself who you no doubt think aren't worthy to engage you in intelligent discourse, then why do you keep repeating the same points and making the case that your position is best? Why would you try to convince me, a miserable, pathetic oaf?

I think that speaks volumes to your insecurity and outright douchebaggery than my childish insults in a low-traffic political forum say about me. I just keep enticing you and you keep taking the bait, and then you really come off like a tool with the glib condescension as if you're talking down to me when hardly no one is watching.

Again, fuck off!

Tony C. said...

@Contrarian:

I didn't call you a subordinate, either. I suspect that is just more projection on your part, you feel subordinate.

That's too bad. It does explain your attitude, however, you feel helpless, sad, lonely, and subordinate? No wonder you are reduced to curses and wishing people ill; you feel like society has betrayed you. That is truly unfortunate.

The Contrarian said...

I didn't call you a subordinate, either.Exactly. I said you were treating me like one. Learning to read should have been accomplished by the end of kindergarten. I think you've got that down. But interpreting and understanding context clues can sometimes longer, but it shouldn't be more than 5th or 6th grade level. You're not there yet.

I suspect that is just more projection on your part, you feel subordinate.I'm not suspecting this...I'm picking up a massive dose of smarmy condescension. Again, who's doing what to make whom feel better. Is it me with my vitriolic rants and insults? I won't deny it. Is it you with your pschoanalytic condescension? Guilty as charged. Nothing wrong with that, except you are setting yourself up as the paragon of douchebags by acting as if you're informed, intelligent, and above the fray. Hey, I'm just a silly, stupid troll trying to get a rise out of you. You're not supposed to be wallowing in the mud with me. Yet you are. What does that say?

That's too bad. It does explain your attitude, however, you feel helpless, sad, lonely, and subordinate? No wonder you are reduced to curses and wishing people ill; you feel like society has betrayed you. That is truly unfortunate.I love it. I love it. I love it. You just can't resist. I love it. By continuing your little pansy-ass pseudo-taunts of condescension as if you're my shrink, you are fully acknowledging that I am in fact NOT any of those things you say and am fully a worthy adversary if not superior to you in breadth and depth of intelligence....because IF YOU JUST LEFT ME ALONE, it would mean you are supremely confident that I'm nothing more than a pimply-faced, 15-year old wise-ass on mommy and daddy's computer just picking a fight or some other societal reject who doesn't hold a candle to your enlightenment and intelligence.

But you can't do that. You keep acknowledging me because you know deep down, I'm not just some half-wit troll. You know I've got you bested, and it's just eating you up that a foul-mouthed chump with a different POV has out-witted you on your own territory.

The Contrarian said...

I'll help you out...



And you have the arrogance to talk down to me as if I'm your subordinate.....pay attention to the "as if"...it makes a big difference in how the sentence reads. Dickbag.

The Contrarian said...

Bottom line on how you've exposed yourself as the real douche here:


If you were to just leave me be, it could be interpreted two ways. One, that I had grossly humiliated you - pwned, as they say - and you had to leave for the sheer embarrassment of being outwitted and made to look like a complete fool. Or it could possibly be that you really are enlightened and intelligent and have every bit of confidence I'm just a loudmouthed troll who is completely irrelevant and that it's pointless to waste time on such an idiot as me.



However, you're not leaving me be. You're engaging me further. Which can only mean one thing. You're grasping at straws to act enlightened and that you got the best of me by continuing the pseudo-taunts and psychoanalytic condescension when you know deep down I've given you one colossal internet bitch-slapping. You're not ready to walk away and sulk in silence, but you're most certainly not confident that you've won. That's why you continue to try and hurl bombs.



If you know you've got me bested and I'm so worthless, then just walk away. I'm not worth it. Right?

Tony C. said...

@Contrarian:

It isn't a matter of having the "best of you", because it is only you engaging in a contest. Your entire agenda is to engage me in conversation, because apparently, I am the only human contact you have.

There is no contest. I understand you. I understand why you are acting out. Regardless of your physical age, I understand the adolescent fun you derive out of swearing at others, without consequence. I understand the control issues you have, and your need to exercise them in an anonymous and safe environment where no retaliation is possible.

I even understand your need to get the last word, because it will make you feel like you have "won" this non-existent contest. Well, be assured you will have it. I hope it comforts you, that you take solace for a few minutes that you have somehow won something, finally, in a life that has been a series of failures. Even if it is just an empty victory in a one-sided flame war.

That is all I have to say for now, so feel free to rant out a response. I hope it gives you some momentary pleasure.

Edward said...

Wow! There actually is some bipartisanship in this country.

I'm watching Newt Gingrich and Rev. Al Sharpton on C-SPAN, having a friendly debate at the National Action Network. They are saying they mostly agree with each other about the roots of poverty and how to deal with the failures in US education. It's nothing like the Gingrich speak to the Republicans a few days ago, also shown on C-SPAN.

Sharpton just invited Gingrich to the march in commemoration of Brown vs. Board of Education, and Gingrich accepted. (Caveat: He has to check his schedule.) Gingrich says it's worth doing just to see the expressions on people's faces as he and Sharpton march side by side.

(IMNSHO, C-SPAN is the best news organization in the country, in large part because its management doesn't subscribe to the idea of covering only "mainstream" ideas, and doesn't waste the viewers' time with talking head analysis of what you just saw and heard for yourself.)

whispers said...

Wow.

This comments section just continues to get more and more juvenile.

Brett said...

You make an interesting point, but the assumption that the seat is worth what is currently being paid for it is wrong. That is how much can be afforded during an election cycle with many competitors (for the donations). What we're finding out now is that it's ACTUALLY worth much, much more.