I promised that I wasn't going to put much more work into estimating crowd sizes for yesterday's tea party events, but here is one last update. The important thing is that we now have a credible estimate for Atlanta at 15,000 persons; we were previously relying on an estimate of 7,000 that the Atlanta Journal-Constitution had initially made yesterday evening but then pulled back upon.
It's not surprising that Atlanta had the largest turnout (in fact, the largest turnout by far, according to our collection of nonpartisan estimates). Turnout was much higher in state capitals than in other cities, and seems to have been much larger in the South than in other regions of the country. Atlanta, being by far the largest Southern state capital, therefore did very well.
Here are the new and revised listings; followed by a complete list from top to bottom. The new listings bring the cumulative estimate of attendance to 311,460 between 346 cities. The same caveats apply as before: although I've included any estimates I've found that seem even reasonably nonpartisan and credible, there were many protests in which reliable crowd estimates were not readily available or where there wasn't even any press coverage at all. However, essentially all major cities and state capitals should now be accounted for.
New and Revised Listings:
Atlanta, GA* - 15,000
New York, NY* - 3,500 (average of two estimates)
Richmond, VA - 3,000
Des Monies, IA* - 3,000 (original source revised upward)
Columbus, OH - 2,700
Canton, OH - 2,500
Boston, MA* - 2,500 (two events)
St. Louis, MO - 2,000
Escondido, CA - 2,000 (two locations)
Topeka, KS - 1,500
Cleveland, OH - 1,500
Charlotte, NC - 1,500
Charlottesville, VA - 1,500
Tallahassee, FL - 1,500
Bend, OR - 1,200
Medina, OH - 1,000
Beaumount, TX - 1,000
Wilmington, DE - 1,000
Carmel Mountain Ranch, CA - 1,000
Roseburg, OR - 750
Hyannis, MA - 600
Cedar Rapids, IA* - 600 (replaced with nonpartiasn source)
Houma, LA - 600 (two locations)
Augusta, ME - 600
Clarksville, TN - 500
Honolulu, HI - 400
Columbus, MS - 400
Lexington, NE - 400
El Dorado, AR - 300
Columbus, GA - 300
Iowa City, IA - 300
Harrison, AR - 300
Kahului, HI - 250
Nicholasville, KY - 250
Pappilon, NE - 200
Walton, FL - 200
Cleveland, TN - 200
Jefferson City, MO - 200
Defiance, OH - 175
Emporia, KS - 150
Fremont, OH - 100
Astoria, OR - 100
Coos Bay, OR - 100
Bad Axe, MI - 100
New Richmond, WI - 80
Richmond Hill, GA - 60
Westerville, OH - 50
* Revision of earlier estimate
All Listings:
Atlanta, GA* - 15,000
Denver, CO - 5,000
Phoenix, AZ - 5,000
Madison, WI - 5,000
Bossier City, LA - 5,000
San Antonio, TX - 4,500
Olympia, WA - 4,500 (average of two estimates)
Lansing, MI - 4,500 (average of two estimates)
Jacksonville, FL - 4,500
Oklahoma City, OK - 4,500 (average of two estimates)
Dallas, TX - 4,000
Fort Myers, FL - 4,000
Fort Worth, TX - 3,750 (average of two estimates)
Indianapolis, IN - 3,625 (average of two estimates)
Vero Beach, FL - 3,500
Sacramento, CA - 3,500 (average of two estimates)
New York, NY* - 3,500 (average of two estimates)
Tulsa, OK - 3,200
Hartford, CT - 3,000
Sioux Falls, SD - 3,000
Cincinnati, OH - 3,000 (average of two estimates)
Richmond, VA - 3,000
Des Monies, IA* - 3,000
Naples, FL - 3,000 (two events)
Nashville, TN - 2,900
Annapolis, MD - 2,750 (average of two estimates)
Columbus, OH - 2,700
Bakersfield, CA - 2,650 (two events)
Columbia, SC - 2,650 (average of two estimates)
Jackson, MS - 2,500
Boise, ID - 2,500
Canton, OH - 2,500
Boston, MA* - 2,500 (two events)
Charleston, SC - 2,500
Spokane, WA - 2,300
Havasu, AZ - 2,250
Chattanooga, TN - 2,000
St. Louis, MO - 2,000
Escondido, CA - 2,000 (two locations)
Stuart, FL - 2,000
Grand Junction, CO - 2,000
Colorado Springs, CO - 2,000
Pleasanton, CA - 2,000
Wheeling, WV - 2,000
Columbus, IN - 2,000
St. Paul, MN - 2,000
Houston, TX - 2,000
Huntsville, AL - 2,000
Des Monies, IA - 2,000 (average of two estimates)
Troy, MI - 2,000
Prescott, AZ - 2,000
Providence, RI - 2,000
Belton, TX - 2,000
Chicago, IL - 2,000
Carson City, NV - 2,000
Fort Lauderdale, FL - 1,750
Tucson, AZ - 1,750 (average of two estimates)
Augusta, GA - 1,700
Knoxville, TN - 1,700
Anchorage, AK - 1,500
Topeka, KS - 1,500
Cleveland, OH - 1,500
Charlotte, NC - 1,500
Charlottesville, VA - 1,500
Tallahassee, FL - 1,500
Tyler, TX - 1,500
Bellingham, WA - 1,500
Deland, FL - 1,500
Salt Lake City, UT - 1,500 (average of two estimates)
Salem, OR - 1,500 (average of two estimates)
Austin, TX - 1,250 (average of two estimates)
New Bern, NC - 1,200
Raleigh, NC - 1,200
Lynchburg, VA - 1,200
Bend, OR - 1,200
Seattle, WA - 1,100
Waco, TX - 1,100
Washington, DC - 1,000
Medina, OH - 1,000
Beaumount, TX - 1,000
Wilmington, DE - 1,000
Carmel Mountain Ranch, CA - 1,000
Temecula, CA - 1,000
Palm Springs, CA - 1,000
Hudsonville, MI - 1,000
Fort Collins, CO - 1,000
Kansas City, MO - 1,000
Marble Falls, TX - 1,000
Manchester, NH - 1,000
Baxter, AR - 1,000
Yuma, AZ - 1,000
Lisle, IL - 1,000
Plymouth, MI - 1,000
Mobile, AL - 1,000
Seal Beach, CA - 1,000
Oceanside, CA - 1,000
Ocala, FL - 1,000
Cullman, AL - 1,000
Memphis, TN - 1,000
Greensboro, NC 1,000
Albuquerque, NM - 1,000
New Haven, CT - 1,000
Montgomery, AL - 1,000
Natrona, WY - 1,000
Albany, NY - 1,000
Rapid City, SD - 1,000
Loveland, CO - 1,000
Ventura, CA - 1,000
Wichita, KS - 1,000
Portland, OR - 1,000
Gainesville, FL - 1,000
San Jose, CA - 1,000
Gilbert, AZ - 1,000
Louisville, KY - 1,000
Fresno, CA - 1,000
Joplin, MO - 1,000
Santa Ana, CA - 1,000
Baton Rouge, LA - 1,000
Denton, TX - 950
Winston-Salem, NC - 900
Wasilla, AK - 850
Astacadero, CA - 850
Abilene, TX - 800
Doral, FL - 800
Wichita Falls, TX - 800
Roseburg, OR - 750
Rochester, NY - 750
Fayetteville, AR - 700 (average of two estimates)
Virginia Beach, VA - 650
Pocatello, ID - 650 (average of two estimates)
Longview, TX - 650
Farmington, NM - 600
Hyannis, MA - 600
Cedar Rapids, IA - 600
Houma, LA - 600 (two events)
Augusta, ME - 600
Morristown, NJ - 600 (average of three estimates)
Duluth, MN - 600 (average of two estimates)
Yakima, WA - 600
Tuscaloosa, AL - 600
Concord, NH - 600
Monterey, CA - 600
Ashland, OH - 600
Matamoras, PA - 600
West Palm Beach, FL - 600
Charleston, WV - 550 (average of two estimates)
Billings, MT - 500
Peoria, IL - 500
Piscataway, NJ - 500
Clarksville, TN - 500
Port St. Lucie, FL - 500
Pensacola, FL - 500
San Diego, CA - 500
Redlands, CA - 500
Corpus Christi, TX - 500
Las Vegas, NV - 500
Santa Rosa, CA - 500
St. Simons Island, FL - 500
Chico, CA - 500
Burleson, TX - 500
Lisbon, OH - 500
Naperville, IL - 500
Tampa, FL - 500
Southlake, TX - 500
San Francisco, CA - 500
Little Rock, AR - 500
Montpelier, VT - 500
Missoula, MT - 500
Fishersville, VA - 500
Myrtle Beach, SC - 500
Fort Smith, AR - 500
Marietta, WV - 500
Pearland, TX - 450
St. Cloud, MN - 450
Jackson, MI - 450
Hollidaysburg, PA - 450
Springfield, IL - 400
Livonia, MI - 400
Champaign, IL - 400
Honolulu, HI - 400
Columbus, MS - 400
Lexington, NE - 400
Elba, AL - 400
Valdosta, GA - 400
Trenton, NJ - 400
Syracuse, NY - 400
Abingdon, VA - 400
Lancaster, PA - 400
Modesto, CA - 400
Chillicothe, OH - 400
Edenton, NC - 400
Gardiner, NY - 400
Florence, AL - 350
Thousand Oaks, CA - 338 (average of two estimates)
Sandusky, OH - 300
Friendswood, TX - 300
Fayetteville, NC - 300 (two events)
Camdenton, MO - 300
Bangor, ME - 300
Cheyenne, WY - 300
Muskegon, MI - 300
Joliet, IL - 300
Rutland, VT - 300
Massapequa, NY - 300
Lakewood Ranch, FL - 300
Harrisburg, IL - 300
Fon du Lac, WI - 300
Minden, LA - 300
El Dorado, AR - 300
Columbus, GA - 300
Iowa City, IA - 300
Harrison, AR - 300
York, SC - 300
New Braunfels, TX - 300
Parkersburg, WV - 300
Goldsboro, NC - 300
Martinsburg, WV - 300
Borger, TX - 275
Elizabethtown, KY - 275
Glendale, CA - 275 (average of two estimates)
Bethlehem, PA - 275 (average of two estimates)
Ashtabula, OH - 275
Chelsea, MI - 250
Kahului, HI - 250
Nicholasville, KY - 250
Newport News, VA - 250
San Mateo, CA - 250
Cody, WY - 250 (average of two estimates)
Frankfort, KY - 250
Miami, OK - 250
Gilmer, TX - 250
Norwalk, OH - 250
Craig, CO - 221
Hannibal, MO - 200
Ann Arbor, MI - 200
Seguin, TX - 200
Neunan, GA - 200
Pappilon, NE - 200
Walton, FL - 200
Cleveland, TN - 200
Jefferson City, MO - 200
Merced, CA - 200
Pismo Beach, CA - 200
Coldwater, MI - 200
Dickinson, ND - 200
Fort Scott, KS - 200
Reno, NV - 200
Rockford, IL - 200
Flemington, NJ - 200
Bellevue, WA - 200
Palmer Township, PA - 200
Youngstown, OH - 200
Helena, MT - 200
Fayetteville, GA - 200
Crystal Lake, IL - 200
Bartow, FL - 200
Scranton, PA - 200
Rowlett, TX - 200
Dekalb, AL - 200
Portsmouth, NH - 200
Rochester, NH - 200
Mankato, MN - 200
Greenville, NC - 200
Ada, OK - 200
Superior, WI - 200
Bloomington, IN - 200
Oswego, IL - 200
Philadelphia, PA - 200
Yucaipa, CA - 200
Stockton, CA - 200
Defiance, OH - 175
Reading, PA - 150
Buffalo, NY - 150
Watkinsville, GA - 150
Pullman, WA - 150
South Kitsap, WA - 150
Baltimore, MD - 150
Currituck, NC - 150
Emporia, KS - 150
Elizabeth City, NC - 150
Simi Valley, CA - 150
Kalispell, MT - 150
Omaha, NE - 150
Council Bluffs, IA - 150
Evansville, IN - 150 (average of two estimates)
Albany, OR - 140
Dover, NH - 125
Boiling Springs, SC - 120
San Bernardino, CA - 100
Kingston, NY - 100
Camden, NY - 100
Moscow, ID - 100
Anderson, IN - 100
Bremerton, WA - 100
Chico, WA - 100
Oak Harbor, WA - 100
Meridian, MS - 100
Staunton, VA - 100
Gastonia, NC - 100
Bristol, TN - 100
Greenville, TN - 100
Shelton, CT - 100
Glenwood Springs, CO - 100
Marion, IL - 100
Plattsburgh, NY - 100
Crown Point, IN- 100
Fremont, OH - 100
Astoria, OR - 100
Coos Bay, OR - 100
Bad Axe, MI - 100
Pittsfield, NY - 100
Vineland, NJ - 100
San Marcos, TX - 90
Milwaukee, WI - 80
Fort Mill, SC - 80
New Richmond, WI - 80
Cotulla, TX - 80
Chester, NY - 80
Bradenton, FL - 75
Natchez, MS - 75
Corona, CA - 65 (two locations)
Herrin, IL - 65
West Covina, CA - 60
Richmond Hill, GA - 60
Newark, NJ - 50
Opelousas, AL - 50
Nicholson, GA - 50
Napa, CA - 50
North Platte, NE - 50
Westerville, OH - 50
Oakland, CA - 50
Frisco, CO - 50
Pittsburg/Antoich, CA - 50
Carbondale, IL - 50
Sevierville, TN - 40
Carterville, IL - 40
Nobelsville, IN - 35
Gadsden, AL - 35
Pataskala, OH - 30
Green Cove Springs, FL - 30
Richmond, CA - 30
Selma, AL - 30
Lake City, WA - 24
Bound Book, NJ - 20
Plainville, CT - 13
Sitka, AK - 12
Fort Plain, NY - 12
4.16.2009
Tea Party Nonpartisan Attendance Estimates: Now 300,000+
@ 7:13 PM
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146 comments
Atlanta's was also heavily represented by the "Fair Tax" crowd, which seems to be very active here with radio show host Neal Boortz on it all the time and based out of Atlanta.
So, despite the hype on Fox this event drew less participation nationwide than either the immigration or anti-war rallies.
Lame.
These estimates are suspect.
Just click on the link for Vero Beach.
The link goes to a news article that says 3,500 people attended, but in the left hand column of that article there's a link to photos, and when you click that on, the photo credit says only 2,000 attended.
So which is it: 3,500 or 2,000? Cuz the difference is a WHOPPING 75 percent
http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2009/apr/15/tea-party-draws-3500-protestors-in-indian-river/
So one tenth of 1 percent of the US population attended a "tea party" yesterday. I'd bet that far more people marched in parades across the country on gay pride day than attended "tea parties" yesterday. In my city (Buffalo), with one million people in the metro area, 150 people attended a "tea party". Why is anyone talking about this again?
Tea Party Nonpartisan Attendance Estimates: Now 300,000+So we now know that there are at least 300,000 certified idiots in the U.S..
No surprise there!
Well, I guess the teabaggers had a fun day. Good for them.
I suppose if that is all you've got then I'd be shouting at the top of my lungs for attention also. I mean, not controlling the House, Senate my LARGE percentages and not in control of the White House must make the minority feel pretty insignificant right about now.
Maybe if Republicans would campaign and legislate like adults and not act like animals people wouldn't get completely turned off by them and listen to what they had to say rather than just tune them out.
Ummm, we got this the second time. Was this third post really required?
We still know the attendance to an order of magnitude and it STILL falls well below anythiong Fox and Newt could have hoped for.
Utter failure.
Obama speeches, that the audience had heard before, were regularly attended by ten of thousands, and some were in the hundreds of thousands, live, for one speech.
That Seattle number seems too high. I was at the protest and there is no way there was 1000 people there.
Granted, I was only there for about 5-10 minutes right when the event kicked off, but I'd say at most there were 500, probably less.
A drop in the hat, but here in Huntington, WV, we had one a day early (organizers thought they'd get more people on Tuesday, since everyone goes to church on Wednesday!)...
Estimates: media sources say "more than 50", up to "about 100", the organizer estimates 100.
Didn't see it up there, thought I'd throw it out there.
Here's a link to some of the Seattle pictures:
http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/picturethis/dont_tread_seat.php#009632
Scroll to about the 5th picture down - to get a sense of the crowd.
I guess the big point is that I think its real hard to get an accurate count. Lets just say several hundred thousand people attended nationwide.
Ok, where did you get your numbers for Papillion? I drove by at 1 O'clock, when the protesters site said they would be out there, and I saw three people. This is a little different then the 200 you have listed.
I'm not sure about the Bend, OR number. The 1200 figure comes from a local talk radio station that is a proud broadcaster of Limbaugh, Hannity, et al. The local newspaper put the number at "several hundred". When I drove by the park it looked more like the "several hundred" than the "about 1200". It just goes to show estimating crowd size can be don as a measure of magnitude, but not more exact than that.
Would it kill you to change the 'Marietta, WV' thing to 'Marietta, OH'. We have little enough to be proud of here.
Hey, you got it right when Biden came to town!
Hi Nate,
Raymond Duray here. I was an eye-witness to the event in Bend, OR. I arrived at 5 PM, two hours after the designated start time for the event. I personally saw between 350 and 450 people gathered for the stage events. I'm pretty sure that the KBND-AM estimate is bogus. This is the right wing radio station in Bend which features such notorious liars as Rush Limbaugh, Lars Larsen, Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly. So, I'd suggest that you might want to revisit the estimate for Bend, OR. Our local right wing newspaper, the Bend Bulletin, announced the figure as "several hundred". That is a more realistic estimate. http://tinyurl.com/c8t9or
Best regards, Ray Duray
5,000 in Madison, WI? As an alum of UW-Madison I find that rather hard to believe, even if folks were driving in from more rural parts of the state (anyway the number came from a throwaway reference in a paper published in Duluth, MN). Madison is easily one of the most progressive cities in the country - "tea party" types are few and far between in that town (though admittedly it's been almost 9 years since I last lived there).
It is the spring semester there though obviously and the student body is extremely liberal and always enjoys heckling crazy speakers (of whom there are many in the downtown area), so I would not be surprised if many of the folks in the crowd where there to jeer more than to jeer.
On the whole I think it's fairly impossible to estimate the number of people at these events around the country. Let's just say it was "a lot" but not even close to the February 15th protests around the country back in 2003.
yawn
not even fox is claiming a success
Great analysis, Nate.
Let's just call it an even million.
Signed,
Glenn Beck
PS. I'm sorry. It's just that (sniff) I love my country (sniff sniff), and (sniff) I fear for it (wipe tear, cry all the way to the bank).
Jeer more than to cheer in my preceding comment, obviously.
I really wish there were counter protests.
Also, it is interesting to note that these were funded and organized by billionaires and lobbyists who have used pastors Rush, Glenn, Rick, and Sean to stir up the ignorant masses.
Do these people not see the fact that Obama has GIVEN them more money? Then again I must remind myself these people do not work with logic and reason...
graiverp? lmao
New Jersey Star-Ledger (a generally pro-Obama newspaper):
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-13/123985537915080.xml&coll=1Morristown, NJ . . . "more than 1,000"
Newark, NJ . . . "about 100"
Flemington, NJ . . . "nearly 300"
"Similar rallies were held in Jersey City, Trenton, Hackensack, Vineland, Belmar..."
Some at the Morristown rally carried signs in support of Republican gubernatorial hopeful Steve Lonegan, who spoke at the rally along with his two challengers for the GOP nomination: former U.S. Attorney Chris Christie and Assemblyman Rick Merkt.
"How about we cut the size of government and take back America," said Lonegan, the former mayor of Bogota.
- - New Jersey Star-Ledger, April 16, 2009__________
Morristown has, sad to say, been the site of many anti-immigrant and overtly racist rallies in recent years.
So where does the state GOP pick as the place for the state's biggest "tea party"?
Morristown.
2009 is a gubernatorial election year in New Jersey, and yesterday's Morristown event can be seen as the 2009 kickoff for the GOP.
Steve Lonegan, when he was mayor of Bogota, made himself (in)famous by asking the local McDonald's to stop advertising in Spanish.
All the GOP candidates for governor had their campaigns bringing people to Morristown.
Chris Christie's reputation is built more on success as a prosecutor than on failure as a racist, so maybe he's the best f a sad lot, but his only prescription for New Jersey's budget disaster is to cut taxes and to stop spending money on those icky brown people in Newark and Camden and Paterson.
Gosh, there are just so many ways to place this "protest" into the proper, ant-sized "outburst" that it truly was. 300,000 people turned out across all 50 states? GOSH! Almost half the size of the current average size of ONE U.S. CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT! WOW!!!
(Back to ants: In all fairness to ants, if ants were given marching orders akin to what Fox-News issued forth, ants would have shown up, en masse).
So, just what is an apt, comparative way of assessing this cultural belch?
How about this: Let's compare the total number, across all 50 states, of Wingnuts that showed up in April for "tea fest" to the number of people who, in the dead of January, showed up to line the train stations and train route along the Eastern Cooridor that carried the Obama/Biden familes to the Inauguration. Guess which crowds were bigger? Even without corporate/lobbyist sponsors and no national media hype sponsors, guess which crowds were bigger?
If only the GOP base could embrace cloning, they might actually have a pathway to achieving turnout. Then again, inbreeding is, genetically speaking, a form of cloning. So I guess that ain't working for them either...
What about Los Angeles? Some (dubious) sources said 8,000 showed up there, yet it is not listed.
500 in Fort Smith showed up for the tea event? Channel 5 News had a video of the event. I see that Honest Abe Lincoln was there! LOL 500 sounds about right. The local TV station were saying it was about 1,000. This is a station that was owned by the New York Times, but now owned a company in Kentucky. I believe there was only 500, which means there were more folks who showed up for the immigration rally two years ago than this tea bagging riff-raff.
Nate, this is why I visit your site every day- I have confidence that you'll report honestly, as you see things, without fear or favor. Sure, you're partisan- almost everyone is- but you let the numbers do the talking. We need more of that in politics.
Nate, thanks again for your efforts on this.
And those who are trying to explain these numbers away, thanks for the entertainment.
you all see the Pensacola tea party speech?
Another city to add. Paducah KY 1700 for sure. They had that many sign a petition at the tea party.
I attended the Portland Rally. My best guess is 600 were gathered at anyone time. As people were coming and going you could probably argue that total head count would range up around 1000.
The wonderful thing about the rally is it highlighted the greatness of our political system. Whether you are on one side or the other you should cheer that people gather to protest. Who cares what they are protesting. It will be a sad day in this country when protests no longer happen or even worse are not allowed.
What a great day for America. The struggle of democracy is alive and well.
Why are we giving these idiots a soapbox, Nate? Stop doing Fox News' advertising for them.
I had more people at my wedding than showed up at some of these "protests." Of course I provided champagne and cake as an incentive.
I don't think most of them knew what they were there for. But from some of the interviews I've seen, many were simply the most extreme anti-Obama people letting off steam.
This is a pretty shabby turnout.
As a current resident of Madison, I have my doubts about that number, too. Yeah, it's the capital, and I'm betting most of the people who showed up were from well outside the city proper.
I was at the Prop 8 protest in November with my husband. He works downtown and saw the teabaggers yesterday. He thinks the crowds were probably about the same size. The Prop 8 protest was estimated at 500. I think that estimate was way low (the street was packed for blocks and blocks) but it was probably more like 1000 or 1500. If you look at a more local source (http://www.madison.com/wsj/topstories/447226) it says that the police prepared for 5000, but didn't count them, and the organizers estimated 5000.
Independent estimates put the Boise crowd at 1,500.
http://www.neurolux.com/thread.cfm?threadid=29120&messages=32
Yesterday was a work day, wasn't it?
Houma, LA (600) is listed twice, once on the same line with P.J. O'Rourke and once just below the puppy bomb ad.
In California, we have a vote on Props 1A and 1B on may 19--we'll see if this is a second tax revolt or not.
Why not make it 500,000... you know, just for the sake of it? STILL A PISS POOR TURNOUT.Apparently FOX thinks so too. That's why BillO the Clown and one of the biggest conservative nutballs in America, Brent Bozell, are whining about MSNBC and Anderson Cooper for mocking the teabaggers.
Statler N Waldorf said...
Why are we giving these idiots a soapbox, Nate? Stop doing Fox News' advertising for them.Thank you, I'm on the same page.
In defense of Nate, Franken's been declared the winner in Minnesota, and Scott Murphy is about to be in NY-20. Also, Nate's a numbers guy and he's he's good at compiling data, so this is right up his alley.
dKos, despite having the best coverage anywhere on this fraud of a protest, thanks to Jed Lewison, and HuffPo have given this waaaay too much coverage. A gathering of 300,000 wingnuts isn't significant news. Even progressive blogs need to prioritise. As for the MSM, particularly CBS and ABC, should be ashamed of themselves. I still can't believe CBS headlined last night's newscast. To watch the coverage, you'd think yesterday's teabagging was a bipartisan affair.
BTW, compare today's evening news coverage of a major story like the Bush torture memos being released to yesterday's coverage of the teabaggers, and it become more apparent low the networks have fallen. This was like the 3rd story on their newscasts. Disgusting.
April 15 seems as good a time as any to show up and act like you're paying attention to what your tax money is going for.
I'm sorry I didn't show up with a "Read my mind: NO NEW TEXAS" sign. That would have been fun.
The Fox angle seems to be the same as the neocons from Reagan on, namely to wrap the interests of the wealthy few in the American flag and claim that Joe normal is getting shafted (which he is, but not by Obama or the Dems specifically). Unfortunately for the oligarchs, that's a tougher sell than it was before last September.
From the signage it would seem that part of the teabagging enthusiasm comes from libertarians who never got the memo about what taxes are for anyway, and that Fox, Armey, Gingrich et al were attempting to capitalize on that basic lunatic undercurrent.
So the teabagging phenomenon is a perennial libertarian obsession that opportunistic neocon oligarchs attempted to coopt in the hopes of preventing their tax rates from returning to Reagan era levels.
If the zaniness happens again, I think the patriotic thing to do might be to show up with something the Foxhole puppetmasters aren't hoping for. April 15 is close enough to April 1 for me.
still seems like a lot of drop-in first time posters linked from the freeptard sites apparently
to properly summarize the entire teabagging party in a word, Bart Simpson says it best:
"meh..."
Saying that, exellent in-depth discussion of the torture memos on AC360 with Jeff Toobin and David Gergen. Quite rightly it's the top news story. Toobin is disgusted and is leaning heavily towards prosecution, Gergen is a typical Washington insider apologist.
nathan said...
you all see the Pensacola tea party speech?You mean this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkOwsIIIe5I
One of the first rules when organizing is to know WHAT is the purpose of the organizing.
What was the purpose of the teabaggers who supposedly partied on April 15? Secession in and of Texas? High taxes? Obama is not an American-born citizen?
Another is to make sure you know what (or somewhat the viewpoint) of any of the speakers. It is obvious that the 'organizers' in Pensacola had no idea what viewpoint would be presented by at least one speaker.
Lack of planning. Lack of knowledge of how to organize. Lack of purpose.
Sounds more like a mob than some sort of organized and viable protest movement to me, unless you are discussing the 'movement' that causes male bovine droppings.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
I wonder what the estimate was of people who actually opposed taxes, not people using this for their views on a black man in the white house
I could not have less sympathy for these tea protests, but I disagree with some of the comments here that act as though they should have been completely ignored. Yes they were in part the product of "astroturfing," and yes Fox News massively (and perhaps unprecedently, even for them) crossed the line into advocacy rather than journalism (which actually would be okay if they were at least honest about it). But clearly tens of thousands of folks showed up to these events of their own accord to protest Obama's policies - albeit in a rather incoherent and often paranoid if not utterly delusional fashion.
But the fact is that this is the biggest show of dissent against Obama to date and it deserves significant coverage, though perhaps not in the exact way it was covered by most outlets. Mainstream media tend to downplay popular protests in general (particularly from the left - a fact to which I can attest from my own experiences in the antiwar movement) and there is nothing good about that. Even idiotic, poorly thought out protests like these tea-thingies are part of the American political conversation and the tradition of dissent and right to assemble. We may find them ridiculous - I certainly do - but to pretend as though they have no relevance whatsoever and ought not be covered is just bizarre.
Progressives should always champion dissent and free expression, even when it's dumb and goes against their own political beliefs as is the case with these tea parties.
HUCHI
good point about the teabagging events proximity to April 1st - so let's refer to these dittoheads as 'APRIL TOOLS'
I need to amend a statement above:
Another is to make sure you know what (or somewhat the viewpoint) of any of the speakers should read
Another is to make sure you know what (or somewhat the viewpoint) any of the speakers will or might state.Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
GEOFF
your point about progressives as champions for dissent is valid to some degree. freedom of expression & true civil liberties are american treasures.
BUT progressives are not required to cheer on the unruly mob when they spout racist hate speeches & spread lies & distortions and basically shout 'FIRE' in a crowd
they do have the privelege & right to be tools of the haters & entrenched powers that used-to-be
all the teabagging yesterday really proved was how impotent [not important] this marginalized minority really is in 2009
for THAT, all true progressives are actually celebrating today because the utter abject failure of the teabaggers was actually proof positive that this is 'our time' and all they have left is sour grapes...
First of all there is no "Des Monies" in Iowa. It's Des Moines.
More importantly, why is it on the list twice? Were there two different groups there?
I hope that there weren't 5,000 people in favor of this crap in Des Moines.
PG,
Nate is a numbers guy, and he did report on Franken and NY20.
He did not, however, run three back-to-back articles listing the daily recount tally for either Franken or Murphy.
It's a little much, no?
What next, are we going to have streaming video of the teabagging events nationwide, punctuated with footage of Bill O'Reilly wiping his ass on the Constitution and Sean Hannity commenting on Billo's wiping technique?
"Here's the blow by blow. Boll's side to side, slow motion smear has effectively covered Article VI Section 3 in a delightfully caramel colored streak of shit, with just enough chunky bits... wait... is that corn? I think we have corn.. yes, there is definitely remnants of some corn based dish now attached to the Establishment Clause..."
Seriously, enough already!
To DCM, I agree the tea parties were a failure - a sign of how confused the right is - and that much of the rhetoric there was disgusting and hateful. I'm not in any way celebrating the protests for what they in fact were or suggesting we cheer them on.
My point was just to speak against the idea that they do not deserve coverage, or that they are completely irrelevant. I do not think either are the case, and I think progressives need to do a bit more than simply belittle the tea parties, though of course they are fully worthy of some level of mockery.
I was in downtown Madison WI for a meeting 1 block off the square on April 15th. I found a parking space one block off the square. The crowd filled the walkway of one corner of the capitol, and a bit more. My guesstimate would be more like 1,000. I do not believe that there were 5,000. There is no official estimate. None of the crowd shots I saw in the state papers were overhead views - all seemed to be basically ground level. Much ado about nothing.
SnW
Billo uses Tucks medicated Pads for that problem...
needed to relieve the burning and itching caused by Hannity hemorrhoids
The big difference is that the anti-war and illegal immigration rallies bloat their numbers through organizers like ACORN and unions who get union members and the homeless to attend the events for money and/or food.
In contrast, the majority of participants at the tea party events are citizens who do not normally engage in activism. It is the recent and unprecedented expansion of the federal government, combined with moronic spending to the tune of trillions of $ of debt, that brought them to the streets.
I hope the mainstream media continues to dismiss and diminish the citizens who Tea Partied yesterday.
The tea party participants I spoke to in Santa Monica were Democrats, Republicans, gays, Hispanics, PUMAs, FairTaxers, African-Americans, Libertarians, Independents, actors, old people, college students, skateboarders and high-school students. The MSM doesn't cover that aspect because it will start to make the sheeple nervous.
In any case, it's quite a diverse group to dismiss so cavalierly.
With all due respect Swizzl there was no such diversity in the crowd that I saw at noon in Madison, WI. You may get a cross-section in CA. In WI, it was blue-collar conservatives, with a sprinkling of guys in slacks and ties, and one of those was carrying a walkie-talkie.
Um, tens of thousands nationwide is not nearly the biggest sign of dissent against Obama, Geoff. 47% of the electorate (somewhere near 60 million as I recall) voted for someone else. Last time I checked, that event was also on a weekday, required people to take off from work and required most to wait a significant amount of time to participate.
The fact that in turn only 300,000 (mainly drawn from that 60 million, although I'd guess a number who didn't bother to vote or aren't registered participated, too) could be bothered to restate that opposition is pretty weak by comparison.
Slightly off topic - were there any rallies with sizeable groups of people of color? Seriously, everything I've seen has been ridiculously white and dominated by middle aged to older people (although there was an undercurrent of stupid acting young people, too). Tends to undercut any message that this is about all Americans or even most of us.
@ swizzlstixx
"The big difference is that the anti-war and illegal immigration rallies bloat their numbers through organizers like ACORN and unions who get union members and the homeless to attend the events for money and/or food."
That's one of the dumbest and most utterly untrue things I've ever read on this web site. You have no idea what you're talking about, or you are blatantly making shit up, or possibly both.
SWIZZLE
if you claim the crowd was composed of gays, actors, skateboarders, college and high-school students [say what ???] - then you were at a different kind of 'T' party, my friend !!!
sorry, but your crowd demo is an epic FAIL... try again when you regain some credibility
Actualy the 300K estimate is from the organizers. The non-partisan estimate is somewhere around 10% of that.
@ Berkeley Bear:
Huh? Yes, I do know about the election and all that, but thanks for reminding me. Obviously I was referring to dissent against Obama since he has actually be in office. I should have thought that went without saying, and drawing a comparison between the number of people who vote against a politician and the number of people who go to a protest against that person is quite frankly absurd.
Furthermore 300,000 (or even 100,000, which for all we know is more accurate) actually taking time out to protest is no small feat no matter what the issue, as any organizer can attest to. Again, I don't think these protests were that big of a deal, I don't think they succeeded, and I think they were basically ridiculous. I'm merely objecting to the idea being expressed here (and apparently being reiterated) that they essentially have no significance whatsoever and should not even be covered by fivethirtyeight or other political outlets. They are worthy of coverage in my view, and progressives should pay some analytical attention to them instead of just making teabagging jokes (though those are fine too).
Nate. Thanks for all the hard work you did compiling that list. I know you're probably tired but I wanted to mention Orlando, Indianapolis, Dayton, and LA. They all had several thousand people and a list wouldn't be accurate without them.
For those of you that feel this protest was meaningless: We aren't trying to be political. We understand that both parties have spent and borrowed us into this mess and that both parties have numerous examples of corrupted officials. We worry that the government has grown too large and too intrusive. We know we can make better decisions for ourselves that a faceless bureaucrat in Washinton can. We know that a debt of 20 trillion dollars (which Obama is projecting in 10 years) will need to be paid back at some time, likely by our kids and grandkids by sharply increased taxes. I don't really believe we are all that far apart. Just my two cents. Thanks again Nate
Years ago a veteran special events promoter told me, "Accept no crowd count for an event that is not ticketed."
Looking at a crowd and guessing the number of people in it is just that, guessing.
JSM
The Orlando Sentinel reported the teabaggers as "hundreds", and that was being kind from the photos & videos of the 'crowds'...
more gawkers than protesters
but go ahead and add them in - the line was longer than that at my local small town post office that day to mail tax returns at the last minute...
I tend to think that coverage of events like the mass teabagging is a good thing, especially when it offsets the sort of promotion that Fox Newts engages in.
It's hard to say what size crowds justify how much coverage, but the real news is how Fox can attempt to manufacture and standardize protest on such a scale. There's a lot of reporting to be done by Nate and others on what really happened as opposed to what the Foxholes say about it.
There were clearly libertarians in attendance for whom typical R's are almost as distasteful as D's. And I personally can't blame anyone for wondering whether Obama's being too nice to Wall Street.
So if we abandon the field to let Fox and friends claim that X happened when what really happened was the square root of X plus Y minus Z, then maybe we're dropping the ball.
I count on Stewart, Colbert and other less serious voices to highlight the borderline quality of many of the personalities involved in this weird phenomenon, just as I'm counting on the GLBT community to liven things up next time.
The question is not 'How many showed up?', but rather, 'What was the message?' Regardless whether 10,000 or 10,000,000 showed...this event failed to convey a tangible message to the American public. Multiple folks I talked to today actually thought the whole ordeal was a protest against (and/or for) TEA itself.
When it comes to teabagging, it's best just to leave it to the pros: white, middle-aged Republican men.
Open wide! GULP!!! Ahhhh...
HAK
nah, do not leave it to the PROS - teabagging is for the CONS !!!
WV - FLAMB... nuff said
with tongue firmly planted in my own cheek
[I said TONGUE...]
wv - ut hole g [have fun with that one]
Who's on top?
Who's left holding the bag?
Bite for your rights!
Q - why was attendance so poor ?
A - cuz the prime demo [older white men] assumed they meant 'TEE' Party, so they went golfing on Wed afternoon of course !
now if they counted all the duffers at the 19th hole on Wed, then there were a hole lot more teebaggers... and many of those 'inflated' crowd estimates must have included all those two-somes & four-somes in all the local golf course 'T' rooms
Of course they had lower numbers than an anti-war and immigration protest. These are typically liberal/left causes.
Liberal/left people have a long history of protesting. With each protest comes names, networking and a better understanding of structuring and organizing.
It's unfair to compare this protest to recent protests of the war or immigration. That first anti-war protest after the invasion of Iraq didn't draw the numbers of later protests either.
This was basically a first time for conservatives, who don't have the history of protesting. I think 300K across the country is pretty good for a first time.
They have plans to hold more over the 4th of July weekend. If they only have similar results or lower numbers then I will call it a failure. It means they didn't get names, network, or learn to better organize/mobilize.. or people really don't care that much.
COREY
the TeaBaggers got several weeks of hype & free PR basically 24/7 on FAUX to spread the message
sorry but yesterday was NOT an organic dynamic like an anti-war, anti-gay, anti-immigrant protest with a central message held with deep conviction
comparing tart apples to bitter oranges
although really it was merely a media contrivance that will go down as an EPIC FAIL [imho]
the TeaBag souffle fell... excuses aplenty though
DCM,
I was actually at the Orlando Tea Party. I walked around and did a count as best I could without the bird's eye view. There were at least 2000 people there, but likely more. I'm not sure what the news will report because many had to leave before the 6pm start time to make their broadcast which Nate didn't really take into account when trying to get an accurate count.
Yeah, I know. The teabagging jokes are REALLY funny, and they never get old. But the issues of an intrusive government and overwhelming debt are non-partisan. They will effect us all. If you want to talk to someone about this tea party movement instead of just calling us names you might find we aren't all that different.
Has everyone noticed that these rallies are mired with children and under-voting-age youngsters? That would put the estimations even lower but I think we can be satisfied with 300k.
P.S. What happened to Reich wing trolls on a similar number-of-attendees post?
JSM
well I saw the photos & videos online & on the late news here in CFL land... no way were there 'thousands' - unless you are counting all the random people & gawkers driving & walking past the small crowd of T-baggers in downtown O-town.
Note that the 'crowds' were actually larger in Deland, fer crissakes, and in Ocala [less surprising due to the demos there & home turf for the Wesley Snipes-type of tax 'cheaters']
or are you aggregating all the CFL 'crowds' into a lumpy sum ???
sorry, as Dana Carvey/George Bush Sr would say, "Not buyin it"
and the Tea Party was a total joke/EPIC FAIL that will linger like a bad smell...
hold your nose cuz it is gonna burn baby !!!
ARIA
those posters on this & previous threads were mostly drive-by first-time message spammers - especially the ones that claimed they were at smaller RED town 'events' yesterday which they claimed had big turn-outs
they were linked/directed to 538 from freeptard sites...
wv - proper
I'd be curious to know how this turnout compares to the national and international protests against the invasion of Iraq back in 2003, which then-President Bush referred to as "special interest groups".
What a bunch of losers.
JSM
you have every right to get involved & protest all you want & be politically active
that is a real america virtue & despite the oppresion & attempt to stomp out civil liberties under Bush/Cheney for 8 years we are still able to express ourselves
BUT - why are you crying about this now ??? where was your outrage when Bush & his cronies created all these problems that are now necessary to clean up properly & democratically ???
we had an election not even 6 months ago - the result was a mandate for real CHANGE
still protest all you want, but what is your message and why did you not share your fiscal outrage with Bush when it really mattered ?
or do you actually want the rich to be the only ones gettin' theirs 7 yours too since the decks are stacked in favor of the wealthy & powerful thanks to the GOP
I don't mind admitting that they got a nice turnout for their "tea parties." Probably about as much turnout as NHL hockey games got last week, but that doesn't mean that NHL hockey is taking over!
Atlanta and Richmond got huge turnouts for the Civil War in 1861, but they lost very badly. Thank goodness!
There was a large protest at Johnson County Community College attended by between 2,000 and 10,000 people. Johnson County -- population approx. 500,000 -- is a politically conservative suburb of Kansas City.
4,500 - Johnson County Sun:
http://tinyurl.com/dl9dc9
2,000 - Kansas Meadowlark:
http://tinyurl.com/cmp5nu
10,000 - KMBC 9 News:
http://tinyurl.com/d5yyej
Corey
The thing is that nobody likes taxes per se, but there is representation, at least in theory. So what is the basic protest? That government shouldn't tax? That the tax system needs reform? That Democrats aren't Republicans (except when they are)?
"Lower taxes" is like "more freedom" in that both are basic values to be maximized, but taxes pay for things people want, and freedom can be abused. How high taxes are and how free a society can be are the decisions governments make all the time.
Protesting a war or an immigration policy are pretty specific things, but the general anti-tax message seems pretty weak given that R's in congress don't seem to have a clue as to what to do themselves.
When Fox acts as it does, the question becomes "What does Rupert Murdoch want and why?" and the teabag thing loses credibility as a grass roots movement. When you spend that kind of money on nationwide promotion (while blatantly lying that you aren't promoting it at all) what does turnout even mean?
DCM - you have now used the phrase "epic fail" three times on this comment page. I look at that as a (semi-epic) failure on your part to avoid overly repetitious banalities.
To Jesse, the numbers for the 2003 Iraq War protests were much higher, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest for some discussion of that.
ARIA
they are BACK !!! lol
humorous, but pathetic like the event itself
what is the point of these drive-by posters...
like during the election, perhaps they are earning freeptard points toward a dittohead award or ???
GEOFF
ROFLOL - and your comment is lame
EPIC FAIL is THE proper term for this 'event' that will not even qualify for trivial pursuit
but thanks for counting !!!
pwned
DCM you are very good at internet slang - congrats. Reasonable discourse? Not so much. Have fun rolling around on the floor.
You're still missing the South Bay event in California. We had 800 to 1,200 people depending on who you ask and when you counted.
Darwin damn it... As a Georgian, I'm so sick of having to apologize for my state.
SGT
look on the bright side - at least you are not in AL
[or in our FL Panhandle]
so it could be worser... or not
we drink our tea sweet in these parts - no bags though
we had an election not even 6 months ago - the result was a mandate for real CHANGEToo bad Obama doesn't have the morals or balls to bring the last administration and the evil slugs who carried out torture to justice.
No matter what good he does in other areas, this one act will forever taint him.
**************
So where is Smoking Asses, GROG, PK, and the rest of the dumbass brigade to spin this as a rousing success?
Sgt. O
As a former Atlantan, I feel your pain. But it's not your fault.
As a city, Atlanta is one sick puppy. Any reasonable person in Atlanta is a de facto social worker, IMHO. There are a lot of them, though.
JSM said...
I was actually at the Orlando Tea Party. I don't doubt that.
I walked around and did a count as best I could without the bird's eye view. There were at least 2000 people there, OK. Count an average of one person every second, and that's 60 in a minute. Yes, you can count five or ten people in a couple of seconds, but then you have to move to count more. And while you are moving, you almost certainly are not counting.
Count an average of one person per second for 33 minutes and you get 1980 people.
How long did you count heads?
The method that is most accureate is to have an aerial photo of the event - a shot (or series of shots) almost directly vertical to the ground from some height; have precise numbers on the size of the area; have precise ways of measuring an 'X' area (100 square feet, 500 square feet, etc.) and count the number of people in a representative sample of that 'X' area. Then, compare different areas of the crowd and determine if the number of people per 'X' square feet is uniform. If not, take a representative sample of another 'X' area, count the number of people in the 2nd 'X' area, and compute the areas that have that same density of people.
Be aware that if it's raining (like most of the East Coast yesterday), you might have one, two, or more people under each umbrella. You have people seeking shelter under objects that are opaque to an aerial photo (an overhang, an umbrella, etc.). If it's sunny and warm, people will tend to stand in the shade - i.e., under trees, where it's difficult to count people (leaves are usually more or less opaque, or didn't you know?). If the event is at night, you almost always have a problem with lighting sufficient to identify the crowd, not only how many people are in an 'X' amount of area, but the extent of the crowd.
In other words, unless you have some type of counting mechanism (tickets, tokens, etc.) that without which a person cannot enter (think of an event at a stadium, arena, etc.), you won't get an absolute figure. Sign in sheets? Not unless you have a specific number of specified entry points, with ABSOLUTELY no way for anyone to enter except through those specified entry points, and no exiting until the event is over. Otherwise, people can enter and leave, signing in at several points (erroneously increasing the number of attendees) or not signing in at all (erroneously decreasing the number of attendees).
As to anyone who makes any statement about 'the official count' provided by a police officer, event organizer, media reporter, etc., remember that that 'official count' is nothing but male bovine droppings. For it to be an 'official number', there has to be a method of counting with a very high degree of accuracy, and not a single one of the teabaggings on April 15 instituted such a manner of counting. In other words, any 'official count' was not a count, but a male bovine dropping estimate.
An example - Let's say you have an area of 500' X 500' (250,000 square feet). If the number of people is very uniformly scattered across that area, and each person occupies an average of 5 square feet (an area of just under 2.25' x 2.25' per person), you would have 50,000 people in the crowd. For comparison, put 20 people in a 10' x 10' room (everyone has 5 square feet of 'territory'), and see how crowded it feels.
Let's say that you have, instead a uniform crowd of people occupying 6 square feet per person (just under 2.5' x 2.5'), you would have almost 10,000 fewer people in that same area (41,667). What if everyone occupied an area of 3' x 3'? The number of people would be a bit under 28,000.
And remember, those are what the numbers of people in that 250,000 square foot area would be if the crowd is uniformly filling the space. Ever been to a large event, an event not equipped with seats, where the crowd is standing? Ever notice that there are clumps of people, then open areas, then clumps of people? In the clumps of people, they might occupy, on average, about five square feet per person (probably more like six or seven square feet each, though). But in the open areas, it might be one person per 100 square feet (one person per 10' x 10' of 'land area' on average).
And that is why crowd estimates are so hard to make, and why crowd estimates can vary by so much. One person makes a slightly different assumption about how much territory each person is occupying, and another makes a different assumption, but just slightly different, and the two estimates look so different that you might conclude they are from different events.
Then again, I suppose most of this post is wasted on several people, since using logic and facts can't sway a Freeptard. Those two terms are foreign to their simpleton concepts, and just fly over their heads without making any impression at all.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
DCM,
Your point about my outrage during the Bush years is a fair one. I was angry about the debt, wasteful spending, big government but my choices were Al Gore and John Kerry if not Bush. I bashed him for these things with my family but ...
However, with Obama, he promised in the debates to pay for his programs with other cuts, to only tax the rich, to balance the budget. Bush's largest deficit was 400 to 500 billion a year. This year with Bush and Obama sharing blame it will be 5 times larger at 2 trillion. After that is goes down to 1.4 trillion the next year, 3 times larger than any Bush ever proposed. And ever deficit every year after that will be larger than any Bush ever had. We can't afford that, no country can. We will have to raise taxes on everyone to pay for this including future generations. This is something we should all be angry about. If the deficit was wrong under Bush, how is one that is two to five times bigger each year under Obama right?
BEAVIS
I gotta agree about the torture & civil liberties as short-comings for the Obama admin so far anyway.
I am extremely disappointed but not shocked since he never ran as a real advocate for these issues
BUT we can only HOPE that other countries will step up & enforce the moral imperatives that Bush/Cheney et al intentionally shredded
VIVA ESPANA !!! and let's hope we see some justice for their criminal actions in the end from the Hague
maybe Bush & Cheney & Rummie will never travel abroad ???
So about the same amount of people attended as voted in the presidential election in North Dakota, Alaska OR Wyoming.
Mike,
There was a scroll/petition that people were signing in Orlando. It had 2000 signatures from the event. Seems like a pretty reasonable way of measuring attendance though I suppose some people could have decided to wait in the long line more than once. My girlfriend didn't sign it though so it's more likely that 2000 is an underestimation.
JSM
well what would you cut to balance the budget & deal with the fiscal mess if you were Obama ?
the only thing large enough to even make a dent is DEFENSE - the sacred cow.
Iraq should be a start - but looks like he will sink that back into Afghanistan sadly.
I am all in favor of slashing DEFENSE to the bone [at least in half]. why are we guarding Europe & Japan & ruling the 7 seas in 2009 ? Imperial USA is what will bust our long-term finances as well as continue to stoke anti-american sentiment around the world.
but who thinks that will happen under Obama ?
no other area is even close to making a dent - especially in this bad economic moment in time.
invest in infrastructure ? hell yes & then some more into education & especially health care reform. get us off oil addiction & over-consumption as the engine that drives 'growth'.
return to a true progressive tax [at least to Clinton era rates] & tax 'unearned' & passive investment income at least as high if not higher than 'earned' income - I mean, WTF is with regressive taxing on wage-earners while the rich investment class slide by on lower rates & with unlimited loopholes & tax dodges fer crissakes...
JSM
did I see Mickey Mouse & Goofy on that list for the Orlando party ???
yuck, yuck [as Goofy would say]
sorry, since we are in Disney's land I couldn't resist the easy shot...
but those characters always do seem to show up at every event in the O-town area
next time have the event at Lake Eola - heck maybe even I would go there since that is a fine place to have a 'party' or just hang on a beautiful day...
DCM,
I don't envy the position Obama is in. They are tough choices. I believe that individuals and free markets do more to grow an economy than anything government can do. Government should be there to protect our rights and freedoms as outlined in the Constitution.
I don't think government involvement in education and health care to the level it is is a good thing. If we lowered taxes the US would become a tax haven for people around the world who would invest here. If business taxes were low, business would open up headquarters here and hire here. If people made their own minds up about health care choices they wouldn't agree to $200 aspirins and other horror stories we hear. I believe we should all have castastrophic health care coverage, subsidized by the government for those who can't afford it but should make individual decisions about the more routine medical expenses, letting competition keep the price down. I think Obama should demand a freeze at the current level of spending instead of increasing discretionary spending at 8 or 9% a year. And that includes defence, though there is certainly waste that could be eliminated in every department including defence.
I enjoyed talking with you. You make fair points and maybe all of us can get our politicians to be smarter with out money. I have to go to bed now, have work in 5 hours.
You seem to not have included the tea party in Van Nuys, California in which the police department estimated the crowd at 3,000 people.
1) Total crowd(s) of some 300,000. # Rose Bowls, or 4 Springsteen concerts. Compare to the Obama campaaign crowds or McCain camapign crowds last fall.
2) Passion/Commitment -- there certainly seemed to be MUCH LESS PASSION FOR THE CAUSE than a) the CA Prop 8 protests, b) Obama campaign rallies c) the IRAQ anti war protests, or d) any of the Vietnam protests.
3) In Hartford, CT (my hometown) during the 80s, when CT passed an income tax, some 40,000 people showed up at the state capital with much more anger and vitriol than the 2000 - 3000 folks were showing on 4/15.
4) Scattershot purpose -- I have seen tax cuts, too much spending, socialism/welfare state (as if we are going to cut social security and medicare), Democrat bashing, and Obama bashing as the set of reasons for the protest.
5) The ententre of teabagging. Chevy could not sell the Nova in Mexico -- unforeseen meanings ARE important.
Belittling it is the first step to defeat.
It's sad (yet hilarious) to read these comments trying desperately to downplay the protests on 4/15.
It's dumb to compare the turnout with football games and rock concerts. There were tea parties in small rural, redneck towns all over the country and certainly not counted. People traveled 100's and maybe 1000's of miles to see Obama. With the tea parties, there was an event in just about every county in America. There was no need to travel to these rallys. (See, the right is trying to protect the evironment by reducing travel.)
The tea parties were a very minimal success. Fox got about 10% of their viewers to show up. Mainly white racist idiots with nothing in particular to complain about.
The tax issue is absurd since taxes are lower now than at any point in recent history. A few of the dead enders in what`s left of the GOP showed up and made fools of themselves.
There is no grass roots uprising in this country, the majority of people don`t care about politics and the rest support Obama by a 2 to one margin.
This was a disgusting display of biased journalism by fox, I hope they stop making believe they are impartial now and no Obama official should go near fox news in the future.
What happens to this number if you take out all the home schooled children who were forced to be there? :-)
Of course we wont mention the fact that the more kids you have the easier it is to qualify for government assitence and food stamps.
Oops -- I don't see the one I attended -- Oregon City, Oregon -- 500 people -- plus everyone driving by waving/honking horns/giving us the thumbs-up -- a revolution is brewing! Amazing in liberal Oregon!
The Tampa number is WAY off. PLEASE Update.
Police at our two April 15th events estimated:
750 at the noon rally
and
2500 at the 5pm rally
Which we guess somewhere around 3000+ attended either one or both of the tax day events.
Visit www.Tampa-Tea-Party.com for a verification post from the site created by those organizing the event or contact the Tampa Police or Freedom Works for confirmation.
Thanks!
How many of those "police" estimates can even be trusted? Keep in mind cops are some of the most racist people in the country...
Many smaller parties were missed. I went through Fulshear Texas and there were about 150 there. And for the cities already listed I know that some accounts were wildly off. In short, the numbers here are bogus.
The Nacogdoches, Texas, paper claimed 2,000. Considering it's a college town with about 30k, I doubt that very much. It was really kind of a lazily reported story.
http://www.dailysentinel.com/news/content/news/stories/2009/04/15/tea_party_041609.html
Bigger cities like Tyler are estimated to have 1,500, but Nac has 2,000? I suppose that's possible, but I doubt it.
I feel like we have given these protests more credibility than they deserve, as if they are representative of a huge portion of the US, or of the Right as a whole. But the numbers of sites and of people are frankly not that impressive compared to other efforts. Take the 2007 "Step It Up" climate rallies for example. There were over 2000 locations for these events in all 50 states. With the Tea Parties, I think we should be more concerned that the FOX network was a major organizer and that they were unable to present an unbiased report-to the extreme. That the Republican party and its thinktanks funded and organized the events. And maybe to discuss the role of social media in the new era of organizing protest. But the protests themselves got a disproportionate amount of coverage because of the politics of media, and I think that is the real story of the day.
Some impressions of the tea bag fests :
1. They have a definite, stage-managed look; not a real protest. The protestors are all neatly facing the cameras. Looks very different from other demonstrations & rallies i’ve attended or seen coverage of. At a real rally, things are more chaotic and spontaneous.
2. Looks like a real populist grab-bag; quite a variety of slogans & signs, reflecting a range of understanding. Many of the slogans & signs are leftist/progressive, advocating class war. Other signs were anti-socialist and anti-fascist (one sign called Obama a “fascist socialist”. What the heck is that ?
Seemingly contradictory, but understandable. Due to the sad state of public education in the country, many U.S.’ers graduating from high school are clueless; don’t know what socialism is, what fascism is, & are clueless re: what a union is for.
3. Some country & western singer (didn't catch the name)’s lyrics were very class-conscious / proletarian, railing against bailing out bankers & Big Business, while working-class Americans suffer from closing down Detroit. “We need to take our country back”, etc. Odd to rail against “socialism” while advocating socialist ideas -- at the same time.
4. Sean Hannity & the other FOX right-wing talking heads are trying to herd all these strains/tendencies under their reactionary umbrella. Some of the more leftie slogans seem to make Hannity a little squirmy.
5. These protests could, with some progressive participation & leadership, move beyond what FOX organizers want, in a positive direction. If not, this populism could be directed onto a neo-fascist path.
To the people working so hard to discredit the significance of these tea parties:
Why? If they're of no importance, why waste your breath here? It seems like you're trying very hard to say your panties aren't in a twist over this, while picking them out of your skinny butt.
I am extremely disappointed but not shocked since he never ran as a real advocate for these issuesBiden certainly made promises as a VP candidate, and I don't recall anyone in the campaign calling him down from that stance. Perhaps I missed it.
****************
Robyn,
The right wingers discredited it themselves.
Tea bagging?
I don't know about you but I don't like the image of Hannity or Limbaugh dropping their shriveled sacks on me.
What about fair and balanced Fox News? Doesn't this finally prove they are the right wing communications office and not a legitimate news organization?
The notion that Fox and the rest of the wing nut nation is trying to spread that this is a massive uprising and they are leading the charge to bring America back under its totalitarianism
fantasies is worthy of mockery.
We are just laughing at you not "working so hard to discredit the significance of these tea parties". There is no significance, other than one laughable thing:
The people who showed up in support of this is a majority of the Republican base. This is what is left, the backwash vote. This is how well a redneck dumbass like Palin will do in 2012.
You should go to freeptard land, they are the ones working hard to inflate attendance and importance.
Do you want some pathetic numbers? I have numbers for you pansy ass liberals to choke on. I dont believe Fox News 'created' these national demonstrations. I was there with family members and no one from Fox called us and asked us to arrive to inflate the number of demonstrators. But even if they did, they sure know how to generate business. Ever since the Tea Pary bruhaha began here are the ratings numbers:
1) Oreilly/Fox 3,185,000
2) Glenn Beck/Fox 3,074,000
3) Hannity/Fox 2,557,000
You need to drop down 4 more spots before MSNBC makes the list.
7) Olbermann/MSNBC 1,223,000
10)! Maddow/MSNBC 954,000 (WTF! 954,000 douche bags)
If Fox News wasnt around to talk about, MSNBC wouldn't exist. How pathetic. Your party is in power, your man is in the Oval Office, and you still cant pull your heads out of the toilet bowl. You better follow Fox's lead and do some of your own astroturfing lest you go like GM, Chrysler, and Circuit City
tea baggers! now 33 1/3% stronger than the green party!
John McCain and Sarah Palin got 46% of the vote in Nov, so the 300,000+ attendance doesn't surprise me. That still doesn't diminish the fact that these protests were attended by a bunch of intolerant rednecks.
I attended the gathering in Bend, OR and your estimate is way off base. It was probably at 600, tops. Makes me wonder about all these other projections listed. Where did you get your estimate?
You are STILL undercounting! As I posted yesterday in response to your earlier post, the OFFICIAL NYPD crowd estimate was 12,500 and NOT 3,000. It is disingenuous to try and marginalize the impact of the protests by misrepresenting the attendance as well as the number of protests which was more than double the 346 that you state.
"Tea Party Nonpartisan Attendance Estimates: Now 300,000+ "
What's nonpartisan the attendees or the estimate? It's not the teabaggers since most of them were by far not nonpartisan, but extremely partisan and anti-Democrat.
Say whatever vitriol you want to spurt about "teabaggers"/anti-democrats/right wing extremists/astroturf/fox news driven/etc etc --the fact is, less than 100 days into this presidency, think about that "less than 100 days" -- people in this country are so outraged that they have come together under the banner of "Stop the Borrowing/Spending/Money Printing/Bailout/Capitalist Bashing/Social Engineering Government" -- I know the next argument is "give him a chance", but sorry, We the People" cannot wait -- One question -- comments please -- How can it be that the agenda Obama campaigned on for two years, before the economic crisis and downturn, is the exact remedy for the present situation -- how can it be that everything he wanted is now the only solution to our problems -- his agenda has not changed -- Answer: he does not care about creating this massive debt -- he only wants the country, and indeed the world, to "change" into his vision of social utopia.
Numbers aside (or maybe not), demonstrations, as opposed to political rallies, are pretty alien to the repub base. I'm thinking that a lot of sympathizers, at least here in the South, probably wimped out.
And of those who did show up, there were a lot of folks who had not a clue about the tax part other than they pay them. They were there for other reasons such as being anti-bailout, opposing that socialist in the White House, etc. Here in Greenville SC, a conservative Republican Congressman who voted for the bailout last fall got booed and heckled throughout his speech.
By the way, our rally ("A passionate crowd of thousands" per the local conservative newspaper) was held Friday evening (buckle on the Bible Belt, y'know - that, and so our beloved Governor, Mark "I haven't announced for President yet" Sanford, could attend) while simultaneously a pro-stimulus "Save Our Schools" rally - attended by 200 per Dem organizers - was being held on the other side of the same site.
WV glysache Not sure I want to know
How was the Cindy Sheehan protests handled by the media compared to the tea parties? I seem to remember favorable coverage for far less people showing up for her protests. Even so it doesn't matter how many but why is there a class in this country not wanting you know that a $1 or so a day tax cut (the Obama $400 a year) doesn't cover what is happening to our dollar with it's continued devaluing via the spending / printing of money / and borrowing. So we are to be ok with a $1 a day while the money I have now and the money I earn in the future losses 15-20% more value from the continued Keynesian economics?
There are so many clueless around it's disturbing. And many in the media are clueless while the Political Class finds them as 'useful idiots'.
According to official sources (i.e. sober) about 500 people attended the Buffalo Tea Party on Wednesday and 10,000 attended Dyngus Day events in Buffalo on Monday.
Whatever the attendance, there's no disputing:
1) Fox's role in co-opting and promoting this "spontaneous" demonstration (which would otherwise have happened as a much smaller and differently-themed event)
2) the attempt of the wealthiest Americans to portray themselves as having the same interests as the middle class, after shamelessly exploiting them for decades
3) Republicans' frustration at losing as badly as they did and finding themselves unable to influence policy via their elected representatives
4) the absolute whiteness of the protesters, and the probability that they come from confederate states
Having said that, there's nothing wrong with protesting, though it's worth noting that many teabaggers may believe that this is the first thing worth protesting since the original Boston Tea Party. One would certainly imagine that few teabaggers would have had much sympathy with either the civil rights movement or (libertarians excepted) with any anti-war movement in history.
When tighty-righties equate "liberals" with "socialists" (or communists or fascists, more absurdly), then it's a foregone conclusion that any leftward political swing (led by a black man!) represents armageddon to them.
Welcome to democracy, folks. Protest all you want, but you lost the election and you lost the civil war. You still may have some valid point to make, as most protests do, but they're mixed in with so much spin and BS that there's no there there.
Libertarians again excepted, the fact that teabaggers sat still while the worst president in history did his best to destroy the environment, the economy, and America's image in the world is why methinks thou doth protest too much.
But this is America. Rant away. I don't like everything Obama et al are doing, either, but I can't say that I feel Dick Armey's, Newt Gingrich's, Rupert Murdoch's and Rush Limbaugh's pain.
wv moxin: a substance which promotes chutzpah in smaller doses but is poisonous in larger amounts
And to those who ever said "America, love it or leave it" I say, fine, but you can't take it with you.
Hmm... Singapore? Afghanistan?
wv diflidfo: an extremely ornate sex toy
More people showed up in one place in Germany for candidate Obama than the non-partisan tax-haters could muster on tax day?
Color me unimpressed.
Everybody hates taxes - it should have been like picking low hanging fruit.
I can't wait for the same group to organize events on the 4th of July and claim the fireworks as endorsement of their silliness.
My first instinct as a private citizen of liberal-leftish persuasion is to deride these teabagging protests. I've been enjoying some of the comments made here at the expense of the wingnut participants. To the extent that these protests were driven by anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-immigrant, anti-gun reulation, and anti-Obama sentiment, they were irrelevant.
Upon further consideration, it seems that some of the participants had honest concerns about huge budget deficits and financial system bailouts. The budget deficits contemplated are larger than the ones generated heretofore by Reagan-Bush I-Bush II. The deficit spending required by our current economic conditions are being piled atop the deficits generated under Bush II, leading to some rather scary numbers. The teabaggers have co-opted the Libertarians' M.O., but some Libertarians and Perotistas would be attracted to these events owing to honest concerns about bailouts and deficits.
So, the important thing is to see if future tea-bagging events are motivated by anti-Obama sentiment, astro-turfing corporations and Fox promotional tie-ins, or whether more genuine concerns become dominant.
The other important thing is whether these protests grow or slack off. That is one good reason for having some idea as to the number of participants in this week's activities. Remember, however, that more people will be able to take part on July 4th, a national holiday. Next April 15th will be a more important benchmark for comparison.
My previous post starting with a reference to being "a private citizen" was meant to highlight considerations that serious politicians (as opposed to private citizens) would be making in regard to the teabagging protests.
"After a night of online porn in Provo, we got up early and brushed our teeth...
went to a little gathering in a tax-funded park and called Obama a MaoFascist,
ooh, yeah...
yeah, it was really good and there were some hot babes there, so I brought one home and we decided to get into the HOT TUB!
HOT TUB! oooh so hot...
we were talking about heading back to my room, even though she a freshman at BYU!
BYU!! BYyouououuou!
But then all the sudden I looked over in the window and saw the show (on Fox) that told me where to be, and my buddy decided to, just then, for her and for me (oh I was so embarrassed)...
He slowly backed into the tub and gave us that Redeye Teabag!!
Redeye Teabag!! Redeye Teabag!!
Gimme That REDEYE!
TEABAG!!!
REDEYE !!!
TEABAG!!!
doo-doo-doo...
thanks to the right wing of America for making all of our work so darned easy these days"
For Frank. Rest in peace. Wish you were here for this one. Really.
In an April 15 Spectator article, former Bush speechwriter David Frum wrote: "[T]o listen to Fox News and other conservative media, you'd think we were living in Czechoslovakia in the final hours before the 1948 communist coup."
Wow, that's got to be downright humiliating for Fixed News considering how hard they pimped this event.
My favorite was when the guy got up to talk and asked anyone who made less than $250,000 to cheer. There was a loud cheer and then he told them "Guess what, you all get a tax cut". I heard gasps from the crowd and a couple of "no way's".
swizzlstixx said...
In contrast, the majority of participants at the tea party events are citizens who do not normally engage in activism. It is the recent and unprecedented expansion of the federal government, combined with moronic spending to the tune of trillions of $ of debt, that brought them to the streets.So why weren't you out demonstrating when George Bush was doubling our national debt from $5 trillion to $10 trillion and taking a national surplus to a national deficit? The unprecedented expansion of the nederal government came from George Bush and the moronic spending to the tune of trillions was on an unnecessary war.
At least President Obama is spending money to invest in America. All your president did was to attempt to drown us all in his bathtub of greed.
Wonder how complete this list is. We had a Tea Party in Greenville SC. Probably 3,000 to 5,000 attended. Upstate South Carolina is one of reddest areas of countries so it is not a surprise. But, these numbers need to be counted if you want to have an accurate account.
Late, but we (i.e., they; I'm not a reactionary) had one in Lawton, OK. My SWAG skills suck; my guess would be 100 in attendance, but if someone claimed 200 were there I wouldn't dispute it with them (i.e, 200 probably an upper bound).
update: local media says "over 160" at Lawton event, link hereDepressing how bittertowns like Wheeling, WV, and Fort Myers, Fl, got as high turnout as Houston.
Here are my estimates of the three tea parties I went to, two of which I don't even see on your list:
Glendale 400
Burbank 100
Van Nuys 500
I'm very left wing, and have been going to and counting demonstrations since the Vietnam war days. Two press people I spoke to agreed with me about the Glendale numbers, which were the result of a fairly careful count by me.
I certainly have no interest in promoting these things, but fair is fair. I attended two events which you seemed to have missed- how many more are there?
You've got 150 people listed for Omaha, NE. But the local news said 1500 people. I was there, and it was definiately closer to 1500 than 150.
The attendance is up to 896,000...you're way off.
care to source that gross overestimation?
oh, Fox Astroturf Company
This blog from the AJC is reporting that the Atlanta crowd was probably more like 6500-7500
http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2009/04/27/the-myth-of-the-15000/
Add 600 for Las Cruces, NM.
The Atlanta figure is officially disputed by the AJC in an article published yesterday. According to their reporter, who paced off the space, a conservative estimate is 6,500-7,500, and the space could have held at most 8,200 people- nowhere near the 15,000 figure being thrown around everywhere.
http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2009/04/27/the-myth-of-the-15000/
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