Rick Perry’s media-friendly turn of phrase regarding Texan sovereignty has set off a sensational level of interest in the business of retrospective nation building – the art of justifying annexations, treaties, royal deposition, and marginally-legal occupation – hundreds of years after the fact. While the US media has treated the statement about possible Texas separatism with mostly amused curiosity, the truth is that secession is one of the most commonly employed political strategies around the world, including the United States.
With the world organized into sovereign Westphalian states (since 1648 and still ticking), and power centered in the national governments of these states, attaining recognized statehood is the ultimate goal for many groups. Without the mantle of statehood, many argue, you are subject to the whims of an unresponsive and oppressive government.
In the US, Hawaiian sovereignty activists are likely the most legitimate voices for an independent nation, with even the US government recognizing wrongdoing. In November 1993, then-President Clinton signed the famous “Apology Resolution,” passed by both houses of Congress, which admitted that, “the indigenous Hawaiian people never directly relinquished their claims to their inherent sovereignty as a people or over their national lands to the United States.” In short, US military forces supported an illegal overthrow of the constitutional monarchy in 1887, and a similarly extra-legal 1898 annexation.
Other movements, such as the Alaskan Independence Party, Second Vermont Republic, and Texan efforts are not strictly linked to historical wrongs, but instead a new frustration with the US. Indeed, anytime communities become alienated from the national system, often along identity and economic lines, the talk of separation tends to become louder. Particularly in a time of economic upheaval and recession, historical cleavages in society become more likely to promote separatist feelings.
Across the globe today, sub-national groups continue to clamor for recognition, some more fervently than others. Ranging from the examples of Belgium, Spain, Somalia, Canada, Morocco, Russia, Iraq/Turkey, China, Israel/OPT and so on, to the less aggressive cases like Italy, France, and Puerto Rico, nearly every nation on the planet has some level of separatist tendency, which stretches the fabric of national unity.
Some countries, such as Spain, with its complex levels of decentralization of language, culture, finance and political power, maintain national composition by providing strong autonomy to communities that might otherwise attempt to break away. Others decide that national unity is no longer possible to maintain, evidenced by the 1947 partition of the Indian sub-continent, or the 1990s break-up of the Balkans. In many places, numerous political parties represent the various regional interests in the national government, allowing for many voices to smooth over societal divides.
The US, with its incredible geographic size, diverse population, socio-cultural and identity rifts, and pre-partitioned state boundaries, would seem to be a prime candidate for regular crises of territorial and political integrity. As well, with the 1860s in mind, there is clearly a history of conflict based on these ideas.
The modern US political system, however, has found ways to mitigate the risks, inspired by the long and troubled history of state versus national sovereignty and the rights of individuals over the state, which bolsters the numerous cultural efforts to maintain national unity.
By having two ubiquitous political parties, the US as a nation retains continuity and conformity throughout the system. Two poles in political society create a commonly defined space for dialogue. But while there is continuity, there is great variability. As anyone can tell you, a Republican in New Jersey is a far cry from a Republican in Utah, and a Democrat in Mississippi shares little with her partisans in Rhode Island. Regional, and even local, variation provides enough flexibility to exercise state and individual rights and ideas, without challenging the legitimacy of the US as a nation.
In addition multiple centers of power in the parties themselves prevent one voice from dominating completely. While President Obama is by most measures the “leader” of the Democratic party, several other key power centers exist to check the party’s ideological drift, left or right. The DNC, the Senate and House leadership, and the Democratic Governors, provide far ranging ideas about what the party stands for, along with state party chairs, leadership and candidates. The exact same is true of the Republicans, where unlike the British Conservative Party led by David Cameron (in the Westminster System), many power centers provide dozens of messages about the ideas of the opposition, from diverse geographic and ideological sources.
Each of these, along with common cultural touch points and the “American” narrative that pervades all political rhetoric, serve to make national issues local, and link local issues with the national dialogue. As a result, national identity is quite strong, even in more “separatist” regions. The widely cited Rasmussen study from this month puts Texan support for independence at just 18%, and Native Hawaiians are currently seeking redress through the “Akaka Bill,” which seeks to provide recognition similar to that of continental Native American tribes, rather than territorial secession. At least for now, the mix of regional and national political identities seems to support the nation-state in the US, rather than challenge it, such that calls for secession are newsworthy only because they are far-fetched.
---
Renard Sexton is FiveThirtyEight's international columnist and is based in Geneva, Switzerland. He can be contacted at sexton538@gmail.com
4.27.2009
Recession, Succession, and Secession
by Renard Sexton @ 7:00 AM...see also hawaii, international, texas
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87 comments
First
“the indigenous Hawaiian people never directly relinquished their claims to their inherent sovereignty as a people or over their national lands to the United States.”
Seems odd to single out the Hawaiians. Isn't that true for most indigenous American peoples?
Can't believe you left our Puerto Rico.
Puerto Rico is in an odd spot. As far as I know they have to follow most U.S. laws and pay our taxes so how is it they are not a state/have no representation?
Same for DC, they are sort of in some weird gray zone and have no voice with any kind of teeth in Congress.
Fair point, but I think the secessionist movement in Texas should be something to be encouraged.
I think that around the world "secession" movements and "nationalist" movements are by far the most common cause of civil wars -- or civil unrest.
And where this seems impossible, then the treatment and rights of ethnic, tribal, religious, or racial minorities -- even if not stimulating to secession attempts -- is a very strong stimulus for political violence and instability.
In the first case, I have in mind the violent breakup of Yugoslavia; the mostly nonviolent break-up of the Soviet Union; the breakup of Czechoslovaka; and situations of stateless groups such as Kurds, Uighurs, and Basques.
In the second group, I include the North African immigrant groups (or their descendants) in France, Catholics in Northern Ireland, and many more.
The urge toward seccession -- and if not that, then cultural or other forms of autonomy -- is pretty universal. As for Texans, well I like both of those new maps that Nate developed -- the U.S. one and the 5 Texas successor states.
@Mark,
The Hawaiian situation is, in fact, singular. Native Hawaiians are not covered by the treaties which established mainland Indian tribes as nations unto themselves. Instead the Hawaiian people have a pastiche arrangement with the Federal government and the state of Hawaii, and whether their situation is thereby advantaged relative to the mainland natives is a matter of hot dispute.
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@Nick
Puerto Ricans do not pay US taxes.
It is the exchange they receive for not being allowed to vote or be represented in congress.
DC is entirely different.
Nick:
Puerto Rico isn't a state because a majority of its citizens don't want it to be one. They vote every so often on it, but the vote splits between those wanting to be a state, those wanting to stay a territory, and those wanting to be an independent nation. the plurality of the people there would like to be an "enhanced commonwealth" or some other form of government loosely affiliated with the US.
As for taxes, you can calm down with the "taxation without representation" shtick (for PR at least). Puerto Rico pays no Federal income tax (although they do pay social security, medicare, and some other random taxes, like on farm commodities). Like American Samoa, Guam, and the USVI, PR gets far more in financial benefit from US subsidies than they pay in taxes.
DC is a special case. Unlike other territories, they are taxed with minimal representation (although they at least get EC votes). Plus, DC has to deal with the ignominy of not having any real right to local rule. Congress can swoop in any time they don't like what the city council does.
Am I the only one for whom this post had a "There's More" which revealed...one additional blank line at the bottom? Seems strange.
It seems to me that this analysis lacks somewhat of perspective. The point is not that the U.S. are (oops.. IS) particularly good at mantaining the nation-state. The point is that the remarkable success of the U.S. in remaining unite in spite of many geografical, cultural, ethnic and even historical difference (on a scale unparallaled in any other nation with the possible exception of India I think) is due precisely to the fact that the Union IS NOT (and it should not try to be) a Nation-state but a federal republic. The confusion between U.S. history and the history of european nation-states is relatively recent in american common sense and, imo, is a very bad and dangerous thing.
(I apologize for my poor english and many spelling-error)
http://www.amazon.com/Untied-States-America-Polarization-Fracturing/dp/0307237524/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240840176&sr=8-1
Considering the popularity of Balkanization abroad (the actual Balkans, Ethiopia/Eritrea, etc), the number of independence movements abroad (The Basques and the Catalans in Spain alone) and the broad differences between say New England and the gulf coast... why not here?
Ultimately, Rick Perry's comment is an off-the-cuff bit of political wrangling. It's not serious. When it's time for Texas to leave the Union, it's gonna be the economics, not the Governor's desire to own a news cycle.
I thought this was a very intriguing defense both of the American two-party system and of our presidential (as opposed to a parliamentary) system, two aspects of American government which are often brought up for criticism. An excellent addition to the debate-- bravo!
I ought to have asked my grandfather about Hawaiian sovereignty when he was still around, there are some pictures of his grandparents with the royal family in Hawaii.
In Europe the interesting cases are in Belgium and Scotland (and maybe in the future Wales or the Netherlands), because the independence movements take place in the organizational structure of the EU. Essentially because they can achieve independence within the body they wouldn't have to take on all of the responsibilities of a state. I think that Puerto Rico would like to be as independent as Scotland might become, (i.e. with a collective security arrangement, operating in a common market...)
What a country!
Thanks for the pep talk.
Most of the examples Sexton lists have as their common point a difference in ethnicity. French origin Quebecers want to leave English Canada, the Basques want out of Spain, etc. What does the Texas babble have in common with that? Well, I'll give you two hints: a) we didn't hear it during the Clinton Administration, and b) I haven't yet heard a black Texan call for secession.
There are other autonomist moments in Europe including devolution of greater autonomy to regions within Spain.
Mark said...
“the indigenous Hawaiian people never directly relinquished their claims to their inherent sovereignty as a people or over their national lands to the United States.”
Seems odd to single out the Hawaiians. Isn't that true for most indigenous American peoples?
Most of the rest are effectively gone. There are very few full blood and overall they make up just tiny percentages of the overall population, and have largely been absorbed. It is much different up here in Canada where NAs make up approximately 5% of the population.
Scotland's case for "liberation" from Great Britain is a singular one, because technically Scotland "conquered" England when the Scottish king James VI assumed the throne of England (as James I) following the death of Elizabeth I, thus peacefully uniting two countries that for centuries had been at each others throats.
So the party struggling to break free should really be the English, not the Scots.
☺
America.. love it or leave it.
It was really funny when the Republicans abandoned being the party of 'law and order' in the 90s, screaming about FBI raids, black helicopters, and too many cops on the street. The Democrats happily accepted the mantle that was left behind, exchanging their previous hippie look for something with a badge and a nightstick.
It was really funny when the Republicans abandoned being the party of 'fiscal restraint' in 2000, expanding the size of government beyond any reasonable description. The Democrats haven't exactly picked up that description.. content to have both parties drawn with the same spending brush, with the Bush Administration's excesses to be used as ammunition when the out-of-power Republicans inevitably begin mouthing empty slogans about government spending.
It is really funny to watch the Republicans abandon being the party that 'loves America!', as they scream incoherently to the base about secession, assassination, and civil war. The Democrats will intelligently accept the mantle of red, white and blue left in the dust by Republicans more worried about a primary challenge than any sort of rhetorical consistency.
If you wonder about the impact of the Reagan legacy, do so no longer. It is dead and buried.
Having thought the question of Texan secession had been settled (by a Republican Administration) it is good to see how far the GOP has moved from "The Party of Lincoln."
But I'm not against Texas leaving. We could move the military bases back to 'more American' states. NASA back to Florida, the Navy back to Brooklyn. It would be great for the economy.
So, this weekend I found a 49 star US flag at a garage sale and snatched it up. I'm ready. See ya later Gov. Perry.
If the Republican Party really is on the way out we should see that in 2010. Since midterm elections are traditionally when the party that holds the White House loses seats in Congress, an all-out effort should be made by the Democrats to win as many seats as they can. The NY-20 race shows this is possible, and if the GOP keeps on as they have, i.e. mindlessly blathering their Reagan-era talking points, a solid trouncing in the 2010 elections should put a bullet through its brain for good. (BTW if you ever want to hear the GOP talking points in full and at their most shrill, tune into this show and listen to Monica Crowley. If there was ever an ideological wind-up doll, she is it. Even other conservatives on the panel regularly tell her to shut up.)
If the GOP is utterly trashed in 2010, look for the birth of a new conservative party. I personally don’t think the GOP can be saved, and there are a lot of conscientious conservatives in the country who would love to get behind a political movement that doesn’t have the likes of Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh as its most recognized symbols.
It's worth pointing out that in the rest of the world separatist movements are overwhelming along entrenched ethnic lines. Tribe A that has been living in their homeland for 5000 years was conquered by Tribe B 1000 years ago and Tribe B genuinely sees Tribe A as losers and feels entitled to marginalize them.
America is a nation of immigrants and the native population was so thoroughly decimated that there simply aren't enough left to demand complete separation. Texan isn't an ethnicity, at best its a state of mind. The state was founded 200 years ago by a misfit group of fleeing fleeing their debts and looking for a fresh start. In the tradition of New England raised GWB you can say the tradition holds true today.
What I am saying is that without the deep ties of blood and land that create the worlds most intractable ethnic divisions, Americans are united by the fact they have no such ethnic unity. Very few Americans can point to a history where their ancestors used to be free, but now face entrenched violent racism through no fault of their own. Without that motivator carrying out a separation will never be worth anything more than lip service.
Here is my take on the Texas secession fluffle, my DailyKos diary on the topic.
It is interesting to me the amount of rage this stirred up, judging from the comments.
Mike B, I pretty much agree with everything you said, except this:
"Very few Americans can point to a history where their ancestors used to be free, but now face entrenched violent racism through no fault of their own."This kind of ignores the history of African Americans in the US. Although now, it's certainly not as violent or entrenched as in the recent past, and many issues have been overcome (see the 2008 election for a prime example) but racism is still hanging on in American life.
True, African Americans are immigrants as well, so they have no particular ancestral land claims as an ax to grind, and they are geographically distributed so there's no region of the country ripe for a new Black separatist movement, but I still think 12-15% of the US population is more than "very few."
Of course, in the US, we had the Civil Rights Movement, rather than a separatist movement, that gained popular support for addressing those historical grievances. And as an African American, with as deep an affection for my country as much as anyone else, who got opportunities I might not have gotten in my parents' or grandparents' times, I'm thankful for that.
I agree with the central point of your argument, but I thought this point needed addressing.
@Mike B
You have a good point. We aren't exactly laying claim to land that's 5000 years old. And those who do (Native Americans), we give them tax breaks.
I'd claim there's an 'economic identity crisis'. Ask a Republican what the problem with the economy is. He'll say "Democrats keep spending on useless social programs!" Ask a Democrat: "Republicans keep spending on useless military!" So each side blames the other, but each side is also looking to be the hero.
I think this is where splitting up starts to sound like a good idea. "Let Texas and those 'idiots' spend their own money how they want; we should get to spend OUR money the way WE want!" I believe one of Vermont's main secession arguments is along the lines of: "We get $0.80 for each dollar we pay in federal taxes."
And honestly, if New England was it's own country, I'd bet it'd have Universal Healthcare back in the 80's.
Very few Americans can point to a history where their ancestors used to be free, but now face entrenched violent racism through no fault of their own.Big C beat me to it, but wow. Just wow.
The problem with the entirety of this article is that it ignores socialization of American citizens as Americans. Up until a century ago or so, people tended to think of themselves as being from the state they were from rather than a citizen of the United States, or an America.
It appears to me that the one exception to this is Texas. Texans are Texans first, Americans second.
For the vast, vast majority of Americans, they think of themselves as Americans - not as Republicans or Democrats, but Americans. The whole culture war is overblown and inaccurate. As simplistic as it may sound, most Americans don't care much about politics and sit in the big, fat ideological center of the spectrum.
@ Mr. Mler: You have a good point. We aren't exactly laying claim to land that's 5000 years old. And those who do (Native Americans), we give them tax breaks.
Native Americans pay federal taxes. In many instances, they also pay state taxes (as most no longer live on reservations and work off-reservation).
Why do these rumors persist?
As a Texan myself, I'm amazed that there are actually people (an educated at that) who seriously believe we could and we should. And, I'm horrified that our governor helped bring this issue to the forefront. The question I have is if talk of secession is treason. I know it's un-American by definition. I want to know if, technically, it's a crime.
Let Texas do what they want, but just have the college football and NFL leave messages pointing out that if they're no longer a part of this nation, they won't be in the leagues any more.
Good bye 2011 Superbowl bid.
The state of Washington has some awesome childish secession kooks.
First you have the inland bible thump knuckle draggers who want to be free of the oppression from the populous coastal region and Seattle.
Then you have some really special buffoons who want to secede from part of Snohomish County and call it 'Freedom County'.
Washington has the best crackpots.
And, I'm horrified that our governor helped bring this issue to the forefront. The question I have is if talk of secession is treason. I know it's un-American by definition. I want to know if, technically, it's a crime.
The "shock" and "horror" expressed by many on the American Left - as personified in this ocmment by a dimwit such as T - is laughable and hardly taken seriously by any critical thinker.
Where were/are you when hundreds of "anti-American" rabblerousers gather every day/week/month and burn flags and chant such charming lines as "Death to America"? Sometimes, it's Arab or Hispanic nationalist extremists speaking out with such charming rhetoric as a way of protesting Caucasian power, rule, influence, or even occupation (in the case of some radical Latinos). And sometimes it's just a bunch of nuts who want to make a point and know they can be heard under 1st amendment protections. So where are you then?
I'll tell you where you are. You're lined up with the ACLU and every other civil rights organization making sure those thuggish bastards are afforded free speech protection under the first amendment.
But the first time the "treasonous" talk comes from a spectrum of politics you disagree with, you're not so quick to defend that speech as free and are quick to point out it actually is un-American, anti-American, and treasonous. I'm not necessarily taking a stake in the argument either way, but I think it critical to point out the blatant hypocrisy and double standard of the American Left.
In your jaded world view:
Extremists rally on a street corner or town square and burn flags while chanting "Death to America!", "F**k America!", etc. = protected free speech
Governor of Texas insinuates that his state could go independent if the US as a whole goes way off track = treasonous talk from an anti-American
That's hypocrisy and bullshit at its finest and you know it....well, I guess you don't or else you wouldn't have said what you did. But maybe my comment shed some light on your hideous thinking.
@Ken "The Falconer" Mortimer
That is very much a factor. A large swath of Quebecers, certainly a majority of Francophones, think of themselves as Quebecois first and Canadian second....and they came within a few percentage points of voting for some sort of succession. The referendum question, written by the provincial government trying to soft pedal a Oui vote, intentionally used very vague wording.
Very much the same thing with Native Americans here. A large number of them don't consider themselves as Canadian and residing in the country of Canada.
Funny how suddenly Gov Perry needs federal help via the CDC for anti-flu drugs. Whose taxes paid for those now?
"The widely cited Rasmussen study from this month puts Texan support for independence at just 18%"
Not sure what you mean by 'just'. If 1 out of every 5 people state a wish to re-enact the Civil War with a different outcome, all because a black person became President, that sounds like news to me. Especially when you examine subgroups, and see that for Texas Republicans it's a 50/50 proposition, excluding the don't-knows.
Now, it's not for me to insist that Texas-Americans actually love our country, respect the flag, pledge allegiance to the nation, and honor the concept of a democratic republic based on constitutional law. They are fairly free, in my view, to hate our country as deeply and as passionately as they wish. But the quick turnaround in their viewpoint has been staggering. The spectre of a black President turned the 'love it or leave it' crowd into the 'hate it and leaving it' crowd in less than 100 days.
...all because a black person became President, that sounds like news to me. Especially when you examine subgroups, and see that for Texas Republicans it's a 50/50 proposition, excluding the don't-knows.
Care to elaborate on the evidence you have that this is racially charged and motivated? You must know something given the broad strokes you use to define "secessionist Texans."
Now, it's not for me to insist that Texas-Americans actually love our country, respect the flag, pledge allegiance to the nation, and honor the concept of a democratic republic based on constitutional law.
Actually, I would insist that you keep your mouth shut and firmly sealed on the matter as it is blatantly apparent you know nothing of what's going on and are just on hare to use inflammatory and divisive rhetoric and incite/encourage trouble. Troll, anyone?
They are fairly free, in my view, to hate our country as deeply and as passionately as they wish.At least you acknowledge that. Now I'm waiting on your condemnation of left-wing groups or minority nationalists who use anti-American language, scream death threats at this great country from our own street corners, and burn the flag. I'm not going to hold my breath...
But the quick turnaround in their viewpoint has been staggering. The spectre of a black President turned the 'love it or leave it' crowd into the 'hate it and leaving it' crowd in less than 100 days.Ignorance so deep and broad must be willful. It must be traumatic to go through life with such blind stupidity. Do yourself a favor and keep your trap shut about things that you know nothing in the way of facts and certainly have a most uninformed opinion.
-Big C
I read Mike B's comment in the opposite way you seem to have read it.
The african-americans, of course, were enslaved on this continent. They don't have a history of ever being free on this continent and then losing that freedom (although perhaps Reconstruction would count before the south and others were able to re-enact state-sponsered racism and discrimination?). The opposite is clearly the case: african-americans were enslaved, and through the civil war, the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments, and the civil rights movement increased the freedom of ex-slaves and their descendants by various degrees.
You could argue they had a history of being free in Africa, although that's shaky at best, as the slave trade existed for centuries before it was brought to the americas and a substantial portion of africans were in some form of servitude (anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3 of the people within the various african kingdoms through time were enslaved).
So I don't think you can really include african-americans within that small group of people in the US who had free ancestors and now face violent racism through no fault of their own. Of course, if Mike B had said the opposite, that very few americans can point to ancestors that used to be "not-free" and now face violent racism through no fault of their own, then you'd have a very good point. Or if Mike B really does think that african-americans were free on this continent and then enslaved, you'd have a very good point.
I think there is another variable at play here. We are an immigrant nation. Be it Irish, German, Italian, African American (pre or post slave trade), Chinese, Japanese, etc etc., there is not a indiginous cultural bias by ethnicity in any particular region. Regions have unique culture that have developed on the unique blend of what immigrated to that area, but 'little Italies', 'chinatown's' and the like exist throughout. As much as each region has elements that seperate it from the whole, each has elements that likewise bind it to the whole. Ironically those areas that are most homogeneous (and basically white protistant) are those areas most "patriotic" (in quotes for a reason) and do not have the population nor economy to be strong viable independant states.
This stands in stark contrast to the Catalonia - Catalans are not immigrants from elsewhere, Basque, Montenegrians, Serbs, Bosnias, Scotts, Welsh, Punjabi, Kurds, etc. etc. These are indiginous cultures that have long local histories and are still not intermigled.
I believe it is the influx of immigrants from diverse cultures into and throughout the fabric of the United States starting in the 1880s that made the regionalism which always existed, less likely to cause session post the industrial revolution than before.
Statler: after the 2002 midterm elections, Alternet published an article by Will Durst advocating California secession.
Fantastic post! Many thumbs up!
Charles said...
I believe it is the influx of immigrants from diverse cultures into and throughout the fabric of the United States starting in the 1880s
You might want to backtrack that '1880s' by a few centuries.
I can trace Dutch ancestry in my genealogy arriving in the (current) US to the 1650s. I can trace English ancestry arriving in the (current) US to the 1650s, and probably much earlier, as the English ancestor I'm referring to in the 1650s was born in the Maryland Colony. That means his parents (and maybe grandparents) had already arrived in Maryland Colony, probably arriving on The Ark or The Dove in 1634.
I can trace German ancestry back to the early-mid 1700s. Irish ancestry back to the early 1700s.
In fact, I cannot find but one ancestor born outside the current US borders after the American Revolution, and that one ancestor was born in Switzerland in the 1790s, arriving in the United States sometime soon after 1810.
As to African-Americans? The first slaves in Virginia Colony arrived in 1619, about 270 years prior to your 'influx . . . starting in the 1880s', and the legal importation of slaves ended by 1810, 70 years prior to your 'influx . . . starting in the 1880s'.
Maybe you think that most immigrants came through Ellis Island? Yes it was an important gateway, but only 12,000,000 people came through Ellis Island. Collectively, many millions more came through Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Charleston, New Orleans, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle and other ports of entry than came through Ellis Island, and came through those ports of entry decades or centuries before Ellis Island opened its doors in 1892. For instance, in the 35 years before Ellis Island opened, over 8 million immigrants had been processed locally by New York State officials at Castle Garden Immigration Depot in Manhattan.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
@ Sandergren
Nice subtle change in language. Mike B never said anything about being free "on this continent." Also, the way you say it, it sounds like slavery just happened, and that the US has been happily increasing black freedom ever since. While I'm happy (and proud) that the US ended slavery and has made great strides towards eliminating discrimination, I also understand that early Americans were responsible for slavery in the first place (in North America, at least). You've got to acknowledge the good and the bad.
@ Charles
I was going to say something similar. The difference between American geographic differences and European geographic differences is that the US doesn't really have the same connection between ethnicity and region. Spain is many different kingdoms brought together in a less than perfect union by the Catholic Monarchs. Those old ties are powerful. For the most part, we don't have the same forces at work in the US.
The one exception might be Texas, which does have a large indigenous ethnic population distinct from the majority that is tied to that region (i.e. Mexicans who became part of the US after the Mexican war). Interestingly, they're not the ones who are calling for secession.
Donald said...
Care to elaborate on the evidence you have that this is racially charged and motivated?I have a cousin that lives on the west end of the Oklahoma/Texas border. Out there in West Oklahoma it is openly given as a reason by some. How big a factor in this whole "we are going to take our ball and go home" movement? *shrug* Not likely all of it but it is an ugly, ugly piece of it. :/
Zack said...
The one exception might be Texas, which does have a large indigenous ethnic population distinct from the majority that is tied to that region (i.e. Mexicans who became part of the US after the Mexican war). Interestingly, they're not the ones who are calling for secession.
Good observation.
The original inhabitants of present-day Tex-Ass (Mexicans of Spanish and/or indigenous people's descent) were completely overwhelmed in numbers by settlers from the US, looking for 'more opportunities' and almost uniformly in favor of slavery, which had already been outlawed by the Mexican government. In fact, one of, if not THE, main reason for the original movement for Tex-Ass independence centered around the issue of slavery. The pre-American settler influx residents were almost universally against secession, the settler influx was for it.
One of the conditions Tex-Ass made sure of when it was admitted as a state was that slavery would continue in Tex-Ass.
What common factor did Tex-Ass have with the other states that seceded prior to the Civil War? Slavery and dependence on slavery to continue it's economic model.
And today, the residents of Tex-Ass who are promoting secession are more likely to not be as much in favor of integration as the residents who oppose secession. In other words, the majority of the supporters of secession almost certainly look on the history of slavery with more approbation than disapproval.
There are other factors, but they have a much lesser influence. The heritage is Tex-Ass since the early 1800s is totally entwined with the issue of slavery and it's aftermath.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
At least liberals had the dignity to say they would leave the union during Bush's 2nd term, not rip it apart.
Donald said...
I'll tell you where you are. You're lined up with the ACLU and every other civil rights organization making sure those thuggish bastards are afforded free speech protection under the first amendment.
Ah, yes, the old 'ACLU causes all the problems' slogan.
As disgusting as their aim, who supported the rights of Nazis to march through the Jewish communities in Skokie, Illinois?
The ACLU.
And then we have the situation in Iowa now. The ACLU went to court to overturn the law that only opposite sex couples could marry. After the Iowa Supreme Court made it's ruling that that law was unconstitutional under the Iowa state constitution, many county recorders stated that they will not issue marriage licenses to same sex couples.
What did the ACLU say? It made it clear that the organization would protect the freedom of speech rights of the recorders who stated that they will not issue the licenses.
Ah, yes, the ACLU is an evil organization through and through, isn't it?
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
@Guido,
No need to apologize for your spelling and grammar.
A person who speaks two languages...
...is called "bilingual."
A person who speaks three languages...
...is called "trilingual."
A person who speaks one language...
...is called "an American."
I thought this was a very intriguing defense both of the American two-party system and of our presidential (as opposed to a parliamentary) system, two aspects of American government which are often brought up for criticism.That holds *if* you think keeping the USA unified is a good in and of itself. On general utilitarian grounds it's neutral: perhaps poor governance is outweighed by the benefits from a large economic and defensive unit. But perhaps not, with the benefits of responsive government outweighing the costs of peaceful splitup, at least at some scales.
Statler: the authority you attribute to Perry, then, is just rhetorical, based on whether large numbers of Texans agree with him. So far, 87% of them don't. He doesn't even carry much support - he won the election because the other candidates split the vote; the state GOP is implicitly backing Hutchinson against him.
Perry's authority is no different from this of Will Durst, or for that matter the forum posters on Democratic Underground who entertained secession and anticipated the abolition of Congress back when Bush was in power. He's governor and they're not by an electoral accident. If Schwarzenegger and Bustamante hadn't joined the gubernatorial replacement race in 2003, California's new Governor would have likely been some hack or extremist elected with a mere plurality of the vote; I can imagine Camejo or Huffington (or for that matter McClintock) joke about secession every bit as Perry.
Ah, yes, the old 'ACLU causes all the problems' slogan.
Don't give me that red herring. I see right through it.
My point was that when hateful vermin spew "treasonous" or "anti-American" rhetoric from the vantage point of the radical left wing of the political spectrum - and there are numerous examples - the mainstream American Left responds with...
A harsh rebuff of their political views?
No.
More likely, they either remain silent or vigorously defend their right to blather such hateful nonsense through the guise of protected free speech guaranteed by the first amendment.
Now, let's assume the inflammatory comments come from someone white and/or conservative, as in this case with Rick Perry. We have howls of actual treason and demands for his head on a platter.
What a double standard. For the record, Governor Perry's comments were dumb but they were only a fraction of the divisiveness and hate I've heard from some truly anit-American groups who shout their crap from our very own cities and towns.
You guys didn't want to go after Saddam after he violated 17 UN resolutions but you're ready to bludgeon Gov. Perry and any 'secessionist Texans' just because they want to "take their ball and go home."
That says a lot about the hate and venom the spews from the American Left. It says a lot indeed.
Woodward is still quite powerful. He can make an issue mainstream just by talking about it. So can George Will, E. J. Dionne, and the rest of the Washington establishment press corps. Rick Perry can't - when he mentions secession, he just makes people hate him and his party.
Of course, Durst has no such power. But by publishing in Alternet, he made the issue serious inside left-wing circles. Put another way: if it were Sean Hannity who advocated secession, would you claim it doesn't matter because he has no political power, or would you say it means the Republicans are for secession
Why do you hate America?
I don't. I love America. Or at least its core principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That's what I love. Not some geographic boundary or political regime.
Governor Parry has weapons of mass destruction.
Stop with the hyperbole. Texas would be about as dangerous as Canada and just about as hostile. A secession doesn't insinuate war by default.
He executes his own citizens.
Besides the ones on death row? I'll let you in on a little secret. It's done in many other places throughout the US and in several countries around the world. You're not helping your argument by sounding so ridiculous.
We must preemptively strike to defend this country from such an aggressor.
I heard nothing from Perry that Texas would be an "aggressor." More like "just leave us alone." Again, I think your true colors are showing. You were/are probably against preemptive strikes against Middle East targets or other rogue regimes or countries - be it Iraq in the past or an Iran or North Korea now - yet you would launch an attack on the Republic of Texas. You are a disgusting human being and full of bitter hypocrisy.
After all, if we don't fight him in Austin, we may have to fight him here.
Again, I hope you're joking and making a satirical point with hyperbole. Because if you're serious, you can take a long walk off a short plank on a tall building or over a deep ocean. You are ridiculous.
Guess I uncovered my pseudonym. I am Smoking Aces
Donald said...
After stating You're lined up with the ACLU and every other civil rights organization making sure those thuggish bastards are afforded free speech protection under the first amendment. . . . you try to deny that you tried to associate people standing up for the right to speak their mind with leftists AND the ACLU?
Nice that you quote a sentence I wrote with the acronym ACLU in it, then try to hide the fact that you didn't bring it up in the fist place.
Typical Reich-wing trick - take something someone says, take it entirely out of context, then blame the other person for your sin.
Nice try at misdirection and obfuscation, but many of the people who don't post often at (so-called) Free Republic are capable of memory, are literate, and are capable of doing research. Looks like you lack all the above, and thus I suspect that you spend most of your time at the (so-called) Free Republic.
Oh, and most of us who don't spend most of their time at the (so-called) Free Republic can come to a conclusion without being told what that conclusion is mandated to be - in other words, we are, unlike you, capable of thinking for ourselves.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Nobody is obfuscating but you. I asked a simple question, and you're taking my use of the ACLU as a device to deflect the point I raised and rant and rave with hateful rhetoric about "Reich-wingers."
But you have no ground to stand on, and you haven't come close to presenting a valid and cogent point to rebuff me. I didn't really expect you would, because after reading your posts, I can see that you easily seethe ignorance. I would have actually been surprised if you had given me a thoughtful and intelligent response.
So get lost. You're not worth my time.
India and Pakistan are really not good examples to use in this context, given that the decision to partition India was made by the British before they handed sovereignty back. They consulted with the ruling elites of both camps, but the decision to do it (and the way in which it was done) was 95% British. The lingering strife on the subcontinent has quite a lot to do with that last salient fact. (Same can be said for the Middle East, though the blame there can be spread around to include the French and the U.S., since we've all tinkered with the borders and/or governments in that area at one point or another in recent history.)
@Donald:
Where were/are you when hundreds of "anti-American" rabblerousers gather every day/week/month and burn flags and chant such charming lines as "Death to America"?
I'll tell you where I was/am:
Nowhere.
Because it didn't/doesn't happen.
"Hundreds gather(ing)...every day...and burn flags...and chant...'Death to America'?"
You got video evidence of such occurrences taking place in the United States on a regular basis?
You got links to news items which describe such behavior? From any news organ other than Weekly World News?
No?
Then, you'd be well advised to use your First Amendment right in a more constructive way--in a way that doesn't make you sound like a ranting dittohead who doesn't know fact from paranoid fantasy.
I'll put it more bluntly, Mike, if you want another try at giving me an intelligent response. I'll even knock it down a few IQ notches and put it in a blunt way you can understand and see if you can give me a blunt response.
Why all the howling and angry ranting with accusations of "treason" and "anti-Americanism" over the secessionist talk (which was very casual, by the way, even if a dumb thing to say) by a conservative such as Rick Perry when you (and the American Left) have had a bevy of opportunities to speak out against those (liberals)who truly have been treasonous and anti-American with their vitriolic rants ("Death to America!") and the burning of the flag in a very aggressive, abrasive, confrontational, and potentially dangerous manner (and far worse than anything Perry said or did), yet you have stood in silence or demanded their "free speech" be protected?
Where is Gov. Perry's "free speech"?
Because it didn't/doesn't happen.
It did and still does. You're living in fantasy land to deny that fact. Do you not believe thousands of flags are burned in angry protests every year?
What do you think they're saying at those protests? Nursery rhymes or Aesop's fables? Hah. Now I won't deny many are peaceful and simply a more aggressive, if disrespectful, demonstration.
But you're fooling yourself if you don't think people say some rather wretched things against this country on a regular basis that make Gov. Perry's comments look like recess chatter among 2nd graders.
I find the following far more alarming than anything Gov. Perry said. These people are advocating actively "taking back the continent" from the white man. Have you an answer? Probably not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqbOm0ABc4U&feature=PlayList&p=BFFE51255EA737B4&index=0&playnext=1&ytsession=EqCS8f6hQ-7TCtOjBRqQM4hlLYLyv3xVAn5XKwcBpxYvvfji5Y4ijUp76P7A_me0Cw3v_daF6zTigEIVjjOfek6gB0ObOvxGI8q6ufAM_ZUHWWVzzvp9cnxDg8dUd4RmvG7_7dwVGu8AVJo9joZxMBblvIvsFGbpDn9669BNa7ADW1p5wfWRk9Xz7WdolgZzEw-WcoeMYV36C5abmXJ74i-1rxdd8xAMHmd70l1sFVApe5XTnebxX8xDD496WPd0xMGIigE8LZwGpcAJQC5ywwQdI8G6MobLoSN7uBXzT81zejUmYfDFDxX_aCIPSy_5i_SgtoRcHstjqyGiEEbLgaWZeK8sQs5K
FANTASTIC article! This is literally the only in-depth discussion I've seen to put the question of secession in a (properly) wide perspective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsOjD_C1vSk
BTW, it's "Rick Perry". With an "e".
Although we have much more entertaining names for him...
Statler, you have to be one of the worst human beings on the planet.
That's funny. I thought liberals represented the mature and intellectual crowd.
Turns out they're far worse at being whiny little bitches than many right-wingers.
God bless you, Statler. You are obviously disturbed, angry, and have deep-seeded troubles in this life.
I wish you the best in spite of your mockery and hatred towards me and this country. I don't defend past practices of the Bush Administration, but that doesn't excuse turning a blind eye to potential threats in the here and now.
Anyway, I wish you a peaceful life and again, may God bless you.
You hate America.
No I don't. YOU hate America.
You've just proven, with that statement, that you hate America.
Incorrect. Recent polls show that you hate America.
Clearly you are only capable of spewing hateful anti-American rhetoric.
Just accept that I love America more than you.
I gave America a diamond necklace for its birthday.
I took America to the beach, and we walked hand-in-hand in the surf.
I rode on the merry-go-round with America, and then we shared an ice cream sundae.
America is lactose intolerant. So obviously you hate America.
No, you hate America.
You.
You.
Aw, Donald. You're such a dupe.
Don't you see that all SNW is doing is taking little shrub's words, tweaking them a bit, and using them in the same manner that little shrub used them? Didn't you believe every word that little shrub uttered?
If you don't recognize all the allusions in that parody, it shows a severe lack of intelligence on your part, and/or that you didn't listen to little shrub very closely. What will your local Grand Dragon think of your study habits? Or is it a Grand Klaxon, or Grand Klugle in your area?
Oh, and if you don't watch out, SA, some of those 'damn ferriners' you are so afeard of will come and get you while you sleep. They might even get some 'darkies' to help them. Better get the watch dog well-trained real quick, hear? We don't want to wake up some morning and see an article that ferriners and darkies messed with you while you slept.
Boog a boo!!!!!!
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
@Donald:
Nice try. You post a YouTube link, which is a photo collage of a lot of stuff, including flag burning.
It has no background info, so we don't know how often this has occurred. Hell, we can't know for sure that many of the images were taken in the United States!
And, since the audio is music, I didn't see / hear any evidence of people chanting "Death to America."
On a daily basis? Make me laugh.
Oh, NOOOO! MoveOn.org posted an ad in the NY Times, in which they insulted a US General! Clearly, they hate America! They are traitors! Boo!
One last question: in all those photos, which person was the current governor of a US state?
February 1, 1861: Texas secedes from the United States of America, and joins the Confederacy, determined to maintain the institution of slavery for black people.
March 30, 1870: After the defeat of the Confederacy, and a period of Union rule, Texas is accepted back into the United States.
1870 - 1974: Texas has the highest incidence of lynching in the United States.
1933 - 1936: Democratic President Roosevelt (Caucasian) implements the first and second New Deal, greatly expanding the role of government and adding massive expenditures to the budget in order to combat the Depression. Texas remains in the Union.
1962: Democratic President Kennedy (Caucasian) presides over the first government budget of $100 billion, and introduced the first non-war, non-recession budget deficit. Texas remains in the Union.
1964/1965: Democratic President Johnson (Caucasian) signs sweeping civil rights legislation. Texas, which had the largest African-American population at the time, did not accept the voting rights provided to minorities until 10 years later, the last state of the former Confederacy to do so. However, they did remain in the Union.
1977 - 1980: Democratic President Jimmy Carter (Caucasian) implements some economic policies, and fails to implement others, leading to the highest combined rate of unemployment and inflation in our country's history. Texas remains in the Union.
1993 - 2000: Democratic President Bill Clinton (Caucasian) increases taxes on the wealthy and business, attempts to implement a national healthcare system, and diverts a sizable amount of government spending away from defense. Texas remains in the Union.
2009: Democratic President Barack Obama declares an intent to revert economic policy to that of the Clinton era, while maintaining a similar military policy as for the previous Republican President. The governor of Texas, and half of Texas Republicans, call for secession.
My ancestor, Gen. Sherman had the right idea! If they want to succeed, we can organize another "March to the Sea" right through the middle of Texas!
Let's see how much they like it a second time!
Speaking to the Hawaiian issue. The overthrow was 1893, 1887 was a coup with no overthrow, though still a colonial incident driven by the European and American race-oriented colonialism of the period.
The Akaka Bill is only one option being considered by Hawaiians, mostly those who are invested in positions of power within the state or federal government (like Sen. Akaka). Many activists and Native Hawaiian academics, including myself, actually do not support the Akaka bill since it does more to constrain future Hawaiian independence than to promote it.
Also, to Dwight with his comment about "most of the rest are already gone," that's garbage. This sort of thinking is the result of US gov policies which for a century have tried to define Native Americans out of existence (post-"pacification"). The two major forms of this are refusing to recognize certain tribal groups and attempting to restrict the term Native American to strict racial quotas and simultaneous cultural dismantling (Boarding schools etc).
By buying into the idea that "real" indians don't exist because they don't fit a blood quantum, which would have little or no standing in any traditional native american understanding of belonging, what you are doing is buying into and reinforcing American attempts to erase the fact that it is a settler colonial nation whose existence depends on the continued denial and suppression of the Native people. Pretty much the same goes for all the settler colonies, America, Canada, NZ, Australia, and depending on how you see it, possibly Israel. Not to mention the simplistic views of race and racial purity that have been used to justify all manner of stupidity (see the nazis, the British raj, the triangle trade, lynching). Not that you're the only one doing so, being raised as an American, it's hard for any of us to really break free from this sort of racial analysis.
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