4.18.2009

NY-20: Challenged Ballots Will Aid Murphy; No Apprent Path to Victory for Tedisco

Based on challenged ballot counts provided by FiveThirtyEight by the Scott Murphy for Congress campaign, it appears that the majority of ballot challenges in the special election in New York's 20th Congressional District were made by the Republican Candidate, Jim Tedisco. As these changes are resolved by election officials, Murphy, the Democrat, will almost certainly add to his current 273-vote lead (.pdf). He appears bound for a narrow, but relatively unambiguous, victory.

The table below provides the number of voter challenges. These are instances in which one or the other campaign questions the eligibility of the voter to have cast an absentee ballot (as for example the Tedisco campaign somewhat infamously did to Senator Kirsten Gillibrand's ballot). Among the voter challenges, 48% were made to ballots cast by a voter registered with the Democratic, Green, or Working Families Parties, while 36% were made to ballots cast by voters registered with the Republican or Conservative parties. The other 22% were made to ballots of voters registered with the Independence party, or without a party affiliation.



Although these numbers look good for Murphy, they actually somewhat understate the strength of his position. This is because Murphy has benefited from a significant number of Republican crossover voters; thus, a 12% partisan advantage in challenged ballots will translate into a wider margin once these ballots are actually counted. FiveThrityEight estimates that, of the absentee ballots that have actually been counted so far, 51% were cast by Republicans and Conservatives, versus 32% by Democrats, Greens, and Working Families Voters. And yet, it was Murphy, not Tedisco, who has picked up the majority of absentee votes, winning 2,848 to Tedisco's 2,509.

Our best guess is that Murphy is winning about 94% of Democratic/Green/Working Families absentees, 60% of unaffiliated/Independence absentees, and 25% of Republican/Conservative absentees. This distribution would get him to the 53% share of absentee ballots he has claimed so far.

If we allocate the voter challenges based on these assumptions -- while also assuming that 10% of challenges from will be deemed valid and will be upheld -- we see Murphy gaining a net of between 350-400 votes.



There are also a second type of challenges -- these are so-called ballot challenges. These challenges are more like the type we saw in Minnesota, where one of the campaigns will challenge the propriety of the ballot itself, rather than the eligibility of the voter. Slightly more Tedisco ballots than Murphy ballots are the subject of this type of challenge. In addition, elections officials themselves have issued some ballot challenges; we have no information about which candidate had been selected on ballots challenged by officials.



To allocate these ballots, we will assume that 90 percent of ballot challenges made by the Murphy campaign to Tedisco ballots are invalid, as are 90 percent of Tedisco challenges made to Murphy ballots, and add them back in to their opponents' totals. As for challenges made by elections officials, we assume that they have a greater likelihood of success -- 50 percent of these ballots will be thrown out, whereas the other 50 percent will be allocated between the two candidates based on their overall share of absentee ballots in that county.

We project that Tedisco will gain between 10-20 votes from these types of challenges once they are resolved:



However, this is only a drop in the bucket compared with the much larger gains Murphy can expect from voter challenges. Overall, we have Murphy gaining another 360 votes from the challenge process, which would put his margin of victory in the low 600's, or about 0.8% of all votes cast in the district.



At this point, Jim Tedisco's best strategy is to do whatever he needs to do to improve his chances in 2010 and beyond, something that probably requires the right combination of aggrievedness and graciousness. Barring an unanticipated legal intervention, he has almost no chance of winning this election.

83 comments

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

I've got 1 e-dollar bet Tedesco does the GOP thing and challenges in court so every disenfranchised voter gets their vote counted. Because it's always in the best interest of the voter, isn't it?

Sam said...

A man who blew a 30 point lead in the polls against an inexperienced opponent within a few short weeks running again in 2 years? Against the now experienced incumbent? After being shoved out of his leadership position in the assembly?

Bring him on.

Bradford said...

Typo-

"by FiveThirtyEight by the Scott Murphy"

should be "to fivethirtyeight..."

Great article, this is a goner. How much will the repubs spend? Does the close race save Steele?

shiloh said...

Turn out the lights, the party's over pun intended ;) they say that all good things must end!

How did the Dem party get damn sooo lucky, thanx darth/dubya. :)

carry on ...

take care, blessings

Statler N Waldorf said...

Wow.

The NY GOP has managed to lose the Senate, and now NY-20-a very conservative district (particularly Rensselaer and Saratoga), even while running a high-profile candidate with a long history in the state Assembly against a relatively unknown businessman with no legislative background.

If, by some chance Governor Patterson can overcome his current unpopularity arising from his recent tax scheme (look, I'm a die-hard liberal and am insanely grateful for Gov. Patterson's Equal Marriage Bill, but even I think his tax policy is nuts), this will be severely damaging to the NY GOP's political future.

Upstate has always been pretty conservative outside the urban hubs. However, it is rapidly depopulating due to a high cost of living and limited economic opportunities for young people. While this has resulted in the few people who are left becoming even more conservative, since the younger and more liberal voices have fled for better jobs elsewhere, it also means upstate is losing its impact when compared to NYC, whose population has remained stable and even grown a little.

Perhaps this is a sign that Upstaters are starting to realize the situation they're in-some small towns have few residents under the age of 40 now-raising the question of who exactly will still be there after the aging baby boomers pack their bags for Florida as soon as they hit 65. Despite their conservative tendencies, conservative leaders such as Joe Bruno, even with all the pork be poured into his district, could not reverse the slide. Slow it maybe, but stop it no. Perhaps this is a sign that even the conservative elderly and now willing to take a chance on Democrats, in the hopes that their towns and villages will not soon become ghost towns as their populations die of old age with no replenishment.


Could this be the bluing of Upstate NY?

Sam D said...

This may change your calculations. There may be better odds that the Tedesco challenges are MORE likely to be Murphy voters than you are figuring:

From a comment at DKos:

The Disco Gym took aim on absentee ballots (2+ / 0-)

from NYC zip codes but they clearly looked very hard at absentees from Columbia County. My wife and I own a second home there so my wife is registered in CD20. Our son attends college at UB and votes there so our home is responsible for tilting elections in three regions across the great state of NY.

Anyway, my wife requested an absentee ballot because she expected to be in NYC on election day. She posted her ballot in Columbia County. Still we received a call at our NYC apartment post election from a mousy voiced woman who asked for my wife by name.

The conversation went like this.
Ms. K, did you vote absentee?
Yes.
Who did you vote for?
Murphy.
Thank you, good bye.

I don't know how they got our home phone number but my wife and I both believe it came from Tedisco's folks.


by Kev on Sat Apr 18, 2009 at 12:13:40 PM MDT
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/4/18/104857/028/34#c34

Anyone want to bet that this ballot was not challenged? I suggested that she report this.

shiloh said...

Just like "macaca" Allen grasping defeat from the jaws of victory in '06, Tedisco has done the same.

Is there some school Reps are now sending their candidates to that teaches these imbeciles how to lose lol

Now that they don't have the national security and hate proposition cards ie gay marriage etc. to use anymore, they are toast! Dems win by default over the party of No.

Better to keep quiet and let people think you are a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!take care, blessings

Mike in Maryland said...

Bradford said...
Does the close race save Steele?

I've got mixed feelings about whether Steele's job is saved.

On the one hand, he's a certified idiot - not quite in the category of Keyes (yes, Illinois, you can keep that fruit loop). His staying on means the GOOPer's leader is an idiot, and that lessens their opportunities to cause damage.

On the other hand, he's a certified idiot. His staying on means the GOOPer's leader is an idiot, but that means the opportunities to cause damage the GOOPers have could be really bad. Look at the idiot Perry (an idiot) advocating secession. His advocating it, in and of itself, is really not that dangerous. However, if he stirs up a few dozen nuts to try to act on that talk, it could cause a lot of harm to dozens of other individuals.

But if Steele isn't the leader of the GOOPers, in what direction will the GOOPers veer off? Towards the Keyes ranting lunatic direction? Towards the Palin "You can see Russia from Alaska!" direction?

Either way, there are opportunities AND dangers if Steele keeps or loses his job as 'leader' of the GOOPers.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

ronster said...

Nice job. I've been following this race at least every other day since the election. I was both relieved and excited over your safe projections in the 500's for a Murphy win. But the more the data is known each day, we can now safely call this a slam dunk with a 600+ vote victory for Murphy.

This is a devastating loss for the Republicans. With the economy slowly recovering and jobs hopefully coming back in the fall and winter, there is a great chance we can pick up a few Senate seats a year from this November. Frankly.....I can't wait. Is it too early to celebrate the death of the Republican Party. Ummm.....I think not!

Mike in Maryland said...

Some indication of out of touch with reality many GOOPers are:

From the April 19 edition of The Washington Times (yes, the Moonie paper in DC):

GOP holds out hope in House race, and contains these nuggets of 'wisdom':

"On Monday, we intend to make our case before the judge that this important election should be decided by the lawful voters of the 20th Congressional District and not by residents of New York City," Mr. Walsh said in a reference to questions being raised over whether a number of the votes counted were from voters who reside outside of the district., and

Even so, the Tedisco campaign had been sending signals last week that they planned to take legal action to determine the legality of a number of absentee ballots challenged on residency grounds, where there were questions of whether voters were permanent residents of the district.

The judge has asked attorneys for both candidates to prepare briefs on the issue, and an official in the Tedisco campaign told The Washington Times on Friday that "it could be a significant numbers of voters."



Article at:
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/19/gop-holds-out-hope-in-house-race

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Statler N Waldorf said...

Money makes the wheels on the campaign bus go round....

How much did the GOP lose on this little bet? How much have they lost on Coleman's court case? How much do they have left?

Also, how much was spent by Democratic donors on Murphy and Franken?

These are the tea leaves we should be reading. If the GOP spends itself into a deep, dark hole from which it will not be able to climb out of by November 2010, and if the Democratic donors haven't spent much compared to that (remembering that working class folks are going to be harder hit by the economic downturn than the people greasing the GOP's wheels), then we may indeed see a Democratic sweep come Nov 2010.

Mike in Maryland said...

And these little gems from The Village Voice (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2009/04/down_178_votes.php):

Down 178 Votes, Tedisco Asks to Be Declared Winner.

Some type of new math?

And then there is this quote:

The vote count that increased Scott Murphy's lead only reflects votes counted up till mid-afternoon, at which time the Republican representatives to the process left for lunch and never came back (one of them went to the Yankees' game).

An indication of the GOOPer intent to drag this out as long as possible?

No indication of Steele having input in the Tedisco campaign's tactics, but also no indication of Steele making any type of comment to attempt to get sanity back on the playing field, either.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

mikthequick said...

Great analysis, as usual, Nate. But (to get off point a bit) I'm a bit curious as to your advert policy, what with SarahPAC staring me in the face. Do you have an explicit policy of not discriminating on the basis of politics or ideology? As a practical matter, I wonder how many of your readers are likely to donate to SarahPAC...if you've put one over on them, good on ya!

BTW, I'm another local Park Slope fan. Hope you're enjoying the neighborhood this Spring!

chezjake said...

Whether Tedisco is a NY-20 candidate in 2010 will be very up in the air. He's not currently a resident of NY-20 (and was bashed for being a carpetbagger), but he can't get re-elected to his NY Assembly seat if he moves into NY-20. Will he play it safe and stay where he is or move to NY-20 and give up his Assembly seat?

Statler N Waldorf said...

Jake,

Ummm,,, he just spent a $hitload of money on this election, won it against pretty strong odds, and has the entire Democratic Party looking at him very closely right now.... I think he's pretty much committed at this point.

If he were going to back out, the time for that would have been a while ago.

Pinko said...

The Republicans consistantly prove that stupidity is not a victimless crime. How do you blow a 20 plus point advantage as Tedisco did?
I had the intense pleasure of seeing George Allen self destruct in 06. Allen also had a huge lead over Webb but his bigotry and racism was his Alamo. So my advice to disgruntled Republicans and other tea baggers is this. Dry those eyes and repeat after me-
HA! HA! HA! And yes I stole that line from Michael Kinsley.

Goreshade said...

Well at least the drawn out ending has probably blunted the sting for Steele. I'd love to see him keep his job, just for the spectacle.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Gore,

It's a hard call to make. On the one hand, Steele seems to be causing harm to the GOP in the sense that his first real challenge was kind of a gimme and he blew it. The whole Limbaugh-Steele circus is kinda hilarious, too.

At the same time, a power vacuum in the GOP, especially if attention is paid to the influence talk radio and Fox have on the selection of his replacement is followed closely by the press would seriously damage the GOP's credibility among independents. Particularly if an extremist is chosen to replace him.

Can't really say which would be better.

DermottTrellis said...

MikeinMd, TPM explained that Tedisco's filing to be declared the winner as
"
what it really does is formally state Tedisco's goal of being declared the winner -- after all, you can't go to court without some kind of specified goal -- and then it goes into the various complaints that Tedisco has, mainly relating to challenges against Murphy voters as being allegedly ineligible to vote in the election.
"
So it's not as wacky as it sounds. I'm pretty sure Norm did the same thing in Minnesota for the same reason.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/04/about-that-tedisco-filing.php

Statler, upstate NY population may shift to more of a NYC bedroom community, like Connecticut and Long Island - you know, escape NYC crime & concrete. I think a large part of Tedisco's challenges deal with people who work & rent in NYC but who have purchased homes & registered in NY-20 so apparently it's being done already.

Mike in Maryland said...

Anyone think the GOOPers have changed their attitude about "counting all the ballots", especially military ballots?

From the Albany, NY Times-Union:

In the 1960 contest for the Indiana Fifth Congressional District race between first term incumbent J. Edward Roush and Republican challenger George O. Chambers, the House created a special subcommittee to oversee the recount of the ballots. For the GOOPers, Rep. John B. Anderson, a Republican, squared off against then Congressman, later Governor, Hugh L. Carey, in the subcommittee.

According to Carey:

"We were debating the ground rules for the recount and whether service ballots would be counted," Carey recalled. "I said it wouldn't be fair to reject a ballot from one of our fine soldiers in harm's way."

Anderson was reluctant. "He didn't trust servicemen to vote Republican," Carey said.

In the end, Carey prevailed.

The 1960 IN-5 contest is considered the closest contest in House history, finally ending with Roush winning 107,357 to 107,258.

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=791513

At that time, IN-5 covered the western part of the state, curving to cover some of the area north and north east of Indy. When the state was redistricted, Roush no longer lived in IN-5 (Lafayette to Terre Haute), but rather had been redistricted into IN-4 (Fort Wayne), where he ran and won in later elections (Roush was my representative when for most of the time I was in high school and college). Eventually and unfortunately, he lost to that epitome of GOOPer 'intelligence', Mr. (Potatoe) Danny-boy Quayle.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Michael (mbw) said...

How positive are we that there won't be a 'legal intervention"? Judge Brand appears willing in other election cases to make extraordinarily partisan Republican rulings. Although his rulings in some instances nominally favored Murphy, the net effect was to supply the judge with a large stack of ballots with enough for Tedisco to hand him the victory if Brand is willing to abandon any appearance of fairness. I don't think this will happen, because the margin is large enough that Brand would have to use extreme and blatant measures. Probably the plan was to get this far with things close enough for a less noisy steal, such as Brand pulled in a couple of other elections.

PorridgeGun said...

Although these numbers look good for Murphy, they actually somewhat understate the strength of his position. This is because Murphy has benefited from a significant number of Republican crossover voters; thus, a 12% partisan advantage in challenged ballots will translate into a wider margin once these ballots are actually counted. FiveThrityEight estimates that, of the absentee ballots that have actually been counted so far, 51% were cast by Republicans and Conservatives, versus 32% by Democrats, Greens, and Working Families Voters. And yet, it was Murphy, not Tedisco, who has picked up the majority of absentee votes, winning 2,848 to Tedisco's 2,509.Dick Morris, Newsmax contributor, FOX propagandist, regular political analyst on BillO and Hannity, and general crazy person:

Tedisco's Terrific Performance Spells Trouble for ObamaI won't quote eveything this moron was babbling about three weeks ago, something about Murphy (Really Obama) not being able to win by a large margin in a district in the bluest of blue states (I know, what a fuckwit). But even if Morris was correct and Tedisco had came out on top in the absentee ballot count, wasn't he 20 pts ahead of the unknown Murphy at one point and considered the red hot favorite to win this seat?


This was a stunning comeback for Scott Murphy, regardless if he had won or lost.





BTW, in the same interview, Morris cites Rasmussen's increasingly insane polling on Obama and the Dems to fit his agenda. It's quite telling that the likes of Dick Morris, FOX and FReeptards the only people who think Rasmussen's push polls are credible. Nate, I know he's your boy, but come on, he's had more outliers than Zogby since Obama implemented his policies. The latest was this week's poll showing Dems only a few points ahead of the teabagger party on handling the economy. Absolutely ridiculous. There isn't a single poll I've seen that shows the Democratic Party less than 20 ahead on the economy. Is this guy just push polling to keep his wingnut readers, or what?

Mike in Maryland said...

DermottTrellis said...
I think a large part of Tedisco's challenges deal with people who work & rent in NYC but who have purchased homes & registered in NY-20 so apparently it's being done already.
And that's somehow illegal? To register to vote where you pay property taxes, even if you don't live in that structure 100% of the time?

If the voter registers at one and only one address, I see no problem with that decision.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

PorridgeGun said...

WTF is up with the recent comment system glitches?

Statler N Waldorf said...

Dermott,

Maybe. NY-20 is still a pretty long commute from the City, although I imagine it would make a nice place for a summer home. Especially some of those cute little towns over in Greene County.

Some parts of it will probably not attract people looking for second homes, like Rensselaer County-it just smells bad over there. A century of GE dumping toxics into the Hudson will tend to do that, and the BASF plant didn't help any either. Further, Troy looks like they just gave up even trying to hold on anymore, as does Rensselaer itself. Schenectady is just appalling.

Saratoga, on the other hand, will attract many NYC escapees, as will much of Columbia, Scoharie and the like.

And then there's the problem of Western NY and the North Country. Rochester and Buffalo are in desperate need of help-they both had problems with abandoned property before the housing bubble burst, and now its much worse. Reasonably, it may make sense for both cities to do what Youngstown, Ohio and Flint, Michigan are doing-bulldozing the abandoned properties and creating greenspaces where they once stood, in hopes that a nice park will be less of a crime problem (abandoned properties in an area not heavily patrolled by cops because few people still live there=crack dens and shooting galleries). It means coming to the painful acknowledgment that people simply aren't going to move back to the urban cores of these cities again, something neither area has wanted to face up to since the 60's when 'white flight' drove the wealthier part of the tax base to the suburbs and exurbs. Even though traffic congestion, declining wages and job security, and occasional oil shocks have made suburbia less attractive, few would want to move into properties that haven't been inhabited in over a decade, in mostly vacant neighborhoods now heavily affected by crime. The environmental devastation in both cities is severe, which further decreases the likelihood of NYC escapees coming to settle down there.

A while ago, a Prince George's County, MD Supervisor with the fairly awesome name of Jack Johnson said he was going to use his power of imminent domain to bulldoze apartment complexes near the DC city line that had become crack dens and gangland safehouses. It's not a bad idea, as extreme as it may sound, and it would certainly make sense in Rochester and Buffalo.

Neither of those places, nor the North Country, are going to attract NYC commuters-the distance is just too far, and Western NY has even more crime and urban decay than NYC, while Malone offers the benefits of year round grey skies and shitty weather. The close proximity to the Adirondacks and the Canadian Border and Lake Champlain would be a draw, maybe for summer homes, but I don't think wintertime will be much fun there.

As for the Southern Tier.... well, I dunno much about that part of Upstate. Seems too much like Pennsylvania to me, anyway-and not the good part of Penn.

Yes, there is a good part of Penn.

Syracuse, and the Finger Lakes would be a nice place to live, though.

Upstate has to do a lot to become viable once again. The people that live there now are too resistant to those changes-to change in general, as is common among the older voter. If these changes don't take place, though, a good part of Upstate will atrophy quickly.

Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Mike in Maryland said...

Porridge,

I've found that if you include HTML tags, the system ignores all spaces and returns until the next 'visible' character when you post.

I've found a couple of ways around that, though:

- include some character immediately after the ending HTML tag (comma, period, semi-colon, colon, etc.), and then it acts correctly, or

- enter a space, return, space return, then start to type. Repeat every time you enter HTML formatting.

The first seems to work best, as you can see it on the posting screen.

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

PorridgeGun said...

Sam said...

A man who blew a 30 point lead in the polls against an inexperienced opponent within a few short weeks running again in 2 years? Against the now experienced incumbent? After being shoved out of his leadership position in the assembly?

Bring him on.
Wow, it was 30 points? What the fuck was Dick Morris huffing when he did that interview?Statler, I suspect Madman Paterson's Equal Marriage Bill will be his parting gift to NY progressives. Andrew Cuomo won't even have to campaign for Governor, just announce. Cuomo is hands-down the most popular politician in New York at the moment. If he ran for Mayor he'd destroy Bloomberg.

PorridgeGun said...

Cheers, Mike in Maryland.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Yeah, It's kinda sad, though. I mean, I feel kinda like I owe Patterson something now, like I should donate to his capaign out of gratitude for what he's done for us, even though I know it's kind of a lost cause when he insists on a regressive tax scheme that targets consumers at a time when the only thing that will save NY's ass is consumer spending by the lower-income bracket.

I just hate it when really good people insist on committing political suicide. Its kinda like how I felt when Spitzer spritzed the hooker all over the front page of every paper in the country. I'm not even in NY, and when I saw him on the TV with his wife looking all destroyed standing next to him, I just shouted at the screen, "Asshole!!!!!!!", not because I have anything against prostitution-I just saw it as the death knell of any possible progressive change he could have brought to this country. Which it was.

So what to do? I can't vote for Patterson, but I can give him money. Should I throw it down a hole, since I know he's going to lose, out of blind loyalty?

DermottTrellis said...

MikeinMd, I agree that second-homeowners can legally register where ever they call home and NY already has case law backing them up. (But Tedisco has a problem with them else he wouldn't be challenging them.) My comment was directed at the discussion of the bluing of the area to describe a current source of bluing (NYC escapees), not to question registrations.
NYC escapees? Like Snake Plissken?

Statler N Waldorf said...

I believe Mr Plissen is running for mayor of The Pines as the Leather Daddy Party candidate.

I always kinda guessed he would go for Long Island over Upstate.

Ira said...

Great analysis.

My sense is that based on who was challanging the votes, Murphy will do better in Essex than you project. The Otsego numbers also look promising. On the other hand, the Saratoga estimates seem too friendly to Murphy. But it doesn't much matter: Tedisco might as well give up now.

This is great news. Murphy just has to survive 2010 - after that it will be easy to draw him a better district. Considering how this one is gerrymandered to elect a Republican, almost any changes would make NY 20 more Democratic. My preferred new district would go up to the border with Canada so Democratic votes in Clinton, Franklin, and St. Lawrence counties aren't wasted in the district of an entrenched Republican (McHugh). McHugh could pick up some of the more rural Republican parts of NY 20, NY 21 as well as parts of NY 24.

shiloh said...

The political trends continuing as they are, in a few years gerrymandering will not be needed by Dems as the Whigs er Reps become extinct!

And Re: Dick Morris ~ From what I hear, he's fairly good at toe-sucking and little else, although his fetish for the Clinton's is somewhat amusing. Let's recap his predictions: HRC will not run for NY senate, HRC will not win. HRC will destroy Obama in the primaries. HRC will be a sore loser and not help Obama win. Yes Virginia, the racist Reps worst case scenario: Obama elected president and no 'Bradley Effect' which was their only hope and HRC becomes Sec of State :) I digress.

btw, Morris has put on a few lbs. recently ...

carry on

take care, blessings

Mark said...

A centrist democrat opinion:In spite of the fact that it would be uncomfortable for Murphy, the longer Tedesco delays this thing and the more it looks like sour grapes on the side of the GOP, the better for the democrats in 2010 and 2012. For every trick that Tedesco uses will only reinforce the general public opinion that the GOP really is deep in the wilderness, essentially leaderless (Beck? Limbaugh? Coulter? Steele? Sanford? Palin?), angry, vicious, bigoted (it is no coincidence that Tedesco suddenly challenged a boatful of votes with jewish surnames - think back to Richard Nixon from 1960 and James Baker from 1992: "f**k the jews, they won't vote for you, anyway"), injured and out of touch. Don't forget, a cornered and injured animal is dangerous and tends to bite. And independent voters don't like animals that bite. Think about it. Without the independents, the GOP will be locked out of power for at least 2 generations.

So, just let the thing run it's course.

Because, statistically speaking, the GOP took a much worse hit in 2008 than shows on the surface. It wasn't just 9.25 states that flipped on the electoral map. Only in the south, the deep, racist south, did the GOP maintain the upper hand. In 78-79% of all other counties in the Union, the GOP took a dive, and based on my county to county studies, the demographics tell me that this trend will continue in 2010 and 2012. One look at what happened in INDIANA tells up that the GOP is in deep, deep doo-doo.

Both the senate seat in MN and the congressional seat NY-20 will be filled at some point in time, both surely with democrats, and all of this delay tactic will backfire on the GOP.

So, with kudos to Murphy, his temporary pain is our long-term gain as a party.

andrew said...

Statler,

I like your analysis on upstate NY. I haven't been there myself, but I've looked online at all the old, beautiful homes selling for pennies on the dollar, and wish they were available in that style and for that price where I live. Just one correction I need to make to your post: "eminent" domain.

garyamort said...

It's weird, people look at NY20 and only see half of it.

Half the people look at the Albany area and say "oh, look how FAR from NYC that is!"[BTW, I went to school up in SUNY Albany, even that far north there are some people who commuted DAILY via Amtrak to NYC].

But it also includes Dutchess county, where people commute daily via metro north to NYC[try finding a parking space at the Poughkeepsie or Beacon train stations after 8am... Both have expanded repeatedly and still there is no parking!]

Tedesco may be counting on the very prevalent anti-NYC feeling of the area - ironic since the economy depends on these people spending their money in the hudson valley.

Tirian said...

Whether Tedisco is a NY-20 candidate in 2010 will be very up in the air.I think any analysis has got to begin a step back, with whether NY-20 will be recognizable after the 2010 redistricting. Either candidate is likely to face a very tough reelection campaign when there are two fewer seats in the state to fight over and the senior members in the delegation likely have more influence over the boundaries. I kind of figure that a big reason why Kirsten Gillibrand got the Senate seat is that she was a rising star who would have been forced out of the House after the census.

chezjake said...

Statler,

I think you misunderstood me last night. I was talking about whether or not Tedisco would run in 2010, and your response seems to be talking about Murphy.

chezjake said...

Tirian,

Remember that the "2010" redistricting won't take place until after the census results are in and that will be after the 2010 election. It'll be the 2012 election when new districts take effect.

Pragmatus said...

"Aggreivedness" you will get from Tedisco; as for "graciousness", good luck! Even if Tedisco wanted to quit the morons running the GOP will insist that this election result drags on and on and on and on...

Mardi said...

chezjake said...
Whether Tedisco is a NY-20 candidate in 2010 will be very up in the air. He's not currently a resident of NY-20...
------------
Ok, Tedisco is not a permanent resident in the NY-20 district and yet he wants the votes from people who do not live full-time in this district thrown out. Wow, talk about hypocrisy, this one takes the cake.

Richard said...

Off-topic: Where's Sean at? We haven't had post from him in nearly three weeks.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Andrew,

Oh, some parts of Upstate are just mind bendingly beautiful. And while it is cheap up there, there's a reason for that.

The economics of Upstate NY are perverse. A deep resentment of NYC and liberalism pervades throughout the area except for the urban centers themselves-and it stops abruptly at the city line. In Rochester, for example, the city is very pro-NYC-apartment buildings very hopefully name themselves after places in Manhattan, wistfully ignoring the fact that a 5 hour commute to a crime-plagued city experiencing environmental devastation and depopulation is a bit much to ask of anyone. However, the very second you leave the city limits, BAM! The suburbanites just hate NYC and will pour their derision upon anyone that dares to suggest otherwise. Same thing in Albany. Very Democratic in the city limits, and then once you cross that bridge into Rensselaer-you're in the 19th century. Buffalo's like that too.

It may be because of the politics of race in NYS. The urban centers are mostly Black with some Hispanics, almost no Asians and a minority of progressive-minded Whites. The burbs are as white as a sheet. And racist as you can possibly get without using the N word in public.

New Orleans is like this too. In fact, one of the things that grates on people down here is posts like Mark's , where he talks about how racist the Deep South is. He's right,racism is a major problem here. As it is in New York and California, too. I have heard Upstaters spew some of the most vile hate imaginable, stuff comes out of their mouths that it just leaves you shell-shocked. And yet, y'all are so much more advanced than us dumb Southerners, right?

And of course, California is a bastion of open-minded tolerance... which is why you passed Proposition 8. To show just how un-bigoted you are. If all there was in Cali was SF and LA, maybe. But I look at Orange County and the Simi Valley and I see more hate per square mile than we have in downtown NOLA.

You know something, before yo0u attribute everything to race, let me ask you this: If Obama had run as a Republican on a GOP platform, do you think he would have carried New York and California running against a white liberal?

Interesting question, huh?

Statler N Waldorf said...

Anyway, that resentment against Democratic politics in suburban, exurban and rural NYS creates an interesting political dynamic, where change is inherently distrusted, stasis is embraced. Even when that stasis is a straitjacket on the local economy. Lip service is paid to small businesses, tax breaks are paid to Wal-Mart which then chokes out the small businesses... and nobody sees the contradiction. Everyone screams their resentment over property taxes, then bemoans how low their locality's budget is. There's a distrust of anything that isn't white, Republican, heterosexual and devoutly christian.... and then they wonder why there are no tourists or investors. Bills get stalled in the Senate, not because there's any real objection to them. The Equal Marriage Bill from a few years ago died in committee because it was a Democratic bill and Joe Bruno's a devout Catholic that was afraid his priest would deny him communion. Did he personally hate gays or object to their getting married? I doubt it. I really don't think he cared one way or the other. But he had to lead his team, you know? His team had to win, on every battle, at any cost. The Dems, those NYC people, they have their team. Then, there's the Upstate Reds, and they're not going to support any NYC bill no matter how good it is.

That's why NYS is a walking corpse.

Jake formerly of the LP said...

Mardi- You forgot the first rule of today's GOP- "my rules don't apply to me."

Related to that, I can't think this whole "drag-it-out" strategy in the Tedisco and Coleman cases is helping the GOP long-term. It cements the image if them being whiny children that can't take it when things don't work out the way they want it to. People do not forget these kinds of things, especially if the Dems are smart enough to remind them of it.

And who's paying for all these legal challeges? it's not the GOPpers are swimming in cash vs. the Dems. Between this and the time and resources wasted on the tea-bag parties, I have to think this limits their chances of running big operations in 2010.

But hey, if they want to live in their little bubble world and be in the wilderness for the next 20 years, who am I to complain about it?

polls_apart said...

@StatlerNWaldorf: You asked:

You know something, before you attribute everything to race, let me ask you this: If Obama had run as a Republican on a GOP platform, do you think he would have carried New York and California running against a white liberal?

I think you asked this question the wrong way. It's clear to me that Obama (as a GOP candidate, think J. C. Watts of OK or Michael Steele of MD) would lose NY or CA running against a white liberal Democrat. The question is, would he lose states in the South running against a white liberal Democrat? In that case, I would expect the third-party equivalent of George Wallace in 1968 or Strom Thurmond in 1948 to arise.

Statler N Waldorf said...

polls,

Alot of Louisianans think Governor Jindal is Black, so I would answer your question with a yes.

Seriously. let me quote it to you. "Racists are a little confused about his ethnic background:

“My grandparents, they’re real old-school, and they didn’t vote for Jindal the first time around because of his ethnicity… I can’t help it, man, that’s the way I am… [but] Jindal’s just not your typical African-American.”"

I've heard that from a number of Louisianans, too.


So let me ask you again, does the fact that CA and NY would have voted for the white liberal mean they are racist?

Statler N Waldorf said...

Now, when I juxtaposed Obama's politics to make a point, the point I was making is that your political platform is what i see when I look at Obama. When you juxtaposed his race, your point was that his race is what you see when you lok at Obama.

I voted for Obama, as did most of Orleans Parish, because of his politics. Did you vote for him because of his race?

Does that make you a racist? I can deal with being labeled politically partisan. Are you prepared to be labeled racially partisan?

I voted for Obama because of what he said he would do as President. His political positions are what mattered to me.

What mattered to you? Or did you even see the politics? Or just the color of his skin?

Peace, y'all.

polls_apart said...
This post has been removed by the author.
polls_apart said...

@StatlerNWaldorf: You asked:
...does the fact that CA and NY would have voted for the white liberal mean they are racist?

Not any more than people who voted against the McCain-Palin ticket were anti-feminist.

By the way, in states like NY and CA, I think the number of white racists voting for the white liberal would be similar to the number of blacks voting for a black conservative. Net result: no change, since the Democratic margin in those states was fairly sizable.

Statler N Waldorf said...

You never know, there were an awful lot of white racists that voted for Jindal.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Now, here's a radical proposition... something really out there, hard to believe.....

What if Obama got elected because he's a good politician that represents a platform that people think is sound?

Sounds crazy, huh?

Statler N Waldorf said...

And maybe the Deep South outside the major cities voted against him because they're social conservatives and Obama's socially liberal?

What if you ran a white liberal down here for Pres against a Black conservative? I'd say the Black guy would win.

polls_apart said...

Y'know, Statler, we've tried that white liberal thing in the South a lot (Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry). They don't carry southern states anyway, so what's your point? Perhaps a black conservative Republican could carry southern states by a few more points than a white Republican, since more of the African-American vote would be attracted to an African-American candidate. But then again, as in the North, maybe some of the white racists would vote for the white liberal, so it would probably be a wash, given the large Republican margins in southern states.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Polls,

I said the reason why Obama lost the South is because of his politics-The Deep South is traditionally conservative outside of the major urban hubs.

Mark said the only reason why Obama lost here is because he is Black.

I said if you ran a Black conservative against a white liberal here, the Black conservative would win, ergo, conservatism is more important than race to the Deep South outside the major urban hubs.

You respond that if we ran a white liberal in the South they would lose (no shit, sherlock).

Now, my point was to reply to Mark's initial allegation that the Deep South is racist because they voted against Obama and the North is not, because they voted for Obama. I hear this alot from tourists that come down here to inform me that they are far more enlightened back where they are from than we are down here.

Which of course, they are not. If they were, the would not have voted for Propr 8, and there would be no racists in Upstate NY. Such a world, where all bigotry ends at the Mason-Dixon line, and all politics revolve around a singular axis-Black vs White, with no consideration for the political platform being represented or the other ethnicities (what about Hispanics? Asians? Native Americans? People who don't quite fit in any of those neat little boxes? People who fit in multiple boxes?) is a fantasy land.

polls_apart said...

OK, now I get your argument with Mark better. But I think you're overstating what Mark said. He meant that Obama lost large parts of Appalachia by more than Kerry, owing to racial considerations. That area extended into WV and parts of PA and OH, if you look at the map that appeared in the NY Times. (It's the one I think Mark has in mind.) He erred by mentioning the Deep South, I think. The fact that the areas where Kerry outperformed Obama extended into PA and OH (and perhaps even NY) proves your point that racism is alive and well in the North. In the Deep South itself, Obama's performance among Whites was counterbalanced by increased African-American votes in a lot of places.

polls_apart said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Statler N Waldorf said...

Appalachia is something altogether different. They've kept a former member of the KKK in office for 40 years up there. When one of those bastards tried to run for governor down here, we turned him down, although the press ran wild with the story and has largely ignored what West Virginia is doing.

I guess its a legacy thing. The South did something horrifyingly shameful for which we will have to bear the burden of shame for, for about as long as Germany will have to bear their shame for what they did. It's going to be an automatic reaction for people to associate us with what happened 150 years ago for some time, whereas West Virginia fought with the Union against the South, so I guess the press gives them a pass. Of course, it doesn't help when people like Rick Parry romanticize that period, either. I cannot tell you how much shame I feel about what our ancestors did. I just wish the day would come when we could take that yoke off our necks.

Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
polls_apart said...

By the way SnW, I was able to find the map highlighting the differences between 2008 and 2004 on 538.com. It was in Andrew Gelman's post on 3/23. There was one county in NY (near Albany) and two counties in MA that showed up pinkish on that map. In addition to "Appalachia", one would have to add the FL panhandle, AR, OK, N and E portions of TX, scattered areas of KS and southern GA, LA (in part due to Katrina's effects), and AZ (owing to McCain's candidacy). Southern GA, LA, the FL panhandle and eastern TX count as Deep South, I guess, but the reddest areas on the 2008 vs. 2004 map were focused elsewhere.

polls_apart said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Statler N Waldorf said...

Well, don't blame us for Katrina. It's bad enough NOLA lost her influence politically when the city was destroyed and over half the population fled. Had that not happened, Obama would have carried LA handily. Help us rebuild our city, and you'll see the return of the liberal New Orleans Democrats.

That county near Albany is called Rensselaer, BTW.

polls_apart said...

I certainly wouldn't blame NOLA for Katrina, SnW. I'm blaming Katrina for the magnitude of LA's shift between 2004 and 2008 across the whole coastal portion of LA, not just Nawleans.

P.S.: Rensselaer Co. is east of Albany, on the MA state line. The pink NY county in the 2008 vs. 2004 map appears to be west of Albany. Not sure what it is.

WV: fusembur. Comes after December?

Mark said...

Statler Waldorf wrote:

"In fact, one of the things that grates on people down here is posts like Mark's , where he talks about how racist the Deep South is. He's right,racism is a major problem here. As it is in New York and California, too. I have heard Upstaters spew some of the most vile hate imaginable, stuff comes out of their mouths that it just leaves you shell-shocked. And yet, y'all are so much more advanced than us dumb Southerners, right?"First, to clarify:

I did not write, nor would I ever write, that southerners are dumb. You wrote this, not I.

Second, the deep south is indeed very racist, and also racist in a different way than most of the rest of the union.

Only the deep, deep south was able to make 3 incredible political switches at the drop of a hat: in 1948 (Thurmond), 1964 (Goldwater) and 1968 (Wallace). Here we are talking about the following states.

Thurmond was a racist without end, ditto Wallace. Those southern states bucked the democratic party in 1964 AFTER LBJ signed the civil rights act into law. Mississippi already fired the warning shot across Kennedy's bow in 1960. And these are deep southern states that had been core democratic territory since 1856 or earlier, states that FDR won with between 85%-97% of the PV in 1936, states that went for democrat (and catholic) Smith with only slightly less spectacular percentages in 1928 in spite of a massive Hoover landslide. These same states were able to go for a third party or an extremist neoconservative with 70%-80% of the PV with hardly any forewarning. No other states in the union have done this. Only the deep south.

Now, fast forward to 2008. In reality, only 5 states trended more republican than in 2004 and only 3 of them would be considered deep southern states. And of them, the trend was only of landslide proportion in AR (Puma - Clinton - you name it). However, if you look at the exit polling, the only thing that kept the deep south from having a major allergic reaction to Barack Obama was the fact that the black vote absolutely went through the roof. MS is 36% black, GA is 31% black. If you look at the exit polling for the white vote in GA, AL, MS, LA and AR - you will see that the white vote spiked in extreme for McCain. Had the voters in those states voted in the same racial proportion as in 2004, then McCain would have scored record landslides in those states, miles above Bush's margins from 2004.

Is this all due to race? No, probably not, but race is indeed a mitigating factor here and also in the appalachian states, including the counties in SW Virginia that border West Virginia, which were the only counties in this state to trend more republican than 2004, including two GOP pick-ups, while at the same time the democrats added 504,000+ votes to their rolls. Wow. Interestingly enough, the trend in WV was negligible and in KY, the trend was actually very lightly democratic.

And yes, racism is everywhere, but not in the proportions as we find in the south. Would a black GOP candidate win in the deep south? I suppose it is possible, but highly unlikely, for most of the white voters in the deep south are actually conservative democrats, who, given a conservative white democratic candidate (or a candidate they would like to consider conservative, ala Carter in 1976), then they could easily vote for the party with which they are officially affiliated. Likewise, a black GOP candidate, imo, could have chances in a state like NY or CA, but even better chances in NJ, also in IA - also core democratic states.

So, in conclusion, my post was not intended to grate, but statistics are statistics. The deep south has a voting history than can only lead to one reasonable conclusion: extreme racism led those states to completely switch sides. And try as it might, the deep south cannot hide from it's record. It's that simple.

Mark said...

"then McCain would have scored record landslides in those states, miles above Bush's margins from 2004."

Correction:

then McCain would have scored record landslides for the GOP in those states, miles above Bush's margins from 2004.

northriver said...

Demott, TPM missed the entire import of the Tedisco filing to be declared the winner. See my detailed explication at:

http://thealbanyproject.com/diary/6289/ny20-why-all-parties-should-decry-tediscos-tactics

Per other comments, it is entirely legal to pick at which of one's two (or three, or four, or, if you're McCain, 14) residences one wants to vote. So long as you only vote in one place, it is your right to pick any of your residences. It does not have to be a "primary" residence.

Lastly, NY-20 isn't just trending blue, it has been *going* blue for a good while now. It voted for Gillibrand twice (the first time albeit because John Sweeney all but immolated himself) and it went +3 for Obama last November. There are a lot of "Rockefeller Republicans" on the rolls, as well as people who register Republican only because that was a necessary prerequisite for many years to get a County or State job.

northriver said...

P.S. The speculation about NY-20 maybe "becoming" a second home/retirement destination for liberal NYCers is well behind the times. Dutchess and Columbia are both within 80-120 minutes of NYC, and increasingly you're seeing the same blueing in Greene, et al. Saratoga County is still heavily Republican, except for the municipality of Saratoga itself. The region has been written up endlessly as a second home and tourism destination, at least in its southern half.

Robby said...

Correction: George Wallace was not a racist, just an unscrupulous opportunist. The second he realized that he couldn't win as a segregationist, he "apologized" to black leaders and declared himself a "moderate" who never "really" believed in segregation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wallace#Change_of_views

Yes, racism is still an issue in the Deep South, but look at Artur Davis's poll numbers for the 2010 Alabama gubernatorial race:

http://www.politicalparlor.net/wp/2009/01/27/anzalone-liszt-poll-for-artur-davis-and-2010-governors-race/

Mike in Maryland said...

Robby said...
Correction: George Wallace was not a racist. . . .

I think that is called 'revisionist history', something the GOOPers always stipulate is done ONLY by Democrats.

Here is some ACTUAL history:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZ4G251WR4

I'm old enough to remember his speech from the school house door.

http://www.archives.state.al.us/govs_list/schooldoor.html

I'm old enough to remember his 1963 (Gubernatorial) Inaugural address (http://www.archives.alabama.gov/govs_list/inauguralspeech.html), where he proclaimed, "and I say . . . segregation today . . . segregation tomorrow . . . segregation forever."

You might also consider some of the obituaries that ran in various newspapers after he died in 1998, such as one in the Washington Post, (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/sept98/wallace.htm) which stated in part "George C. Wallace . . . who became known as the embodiment of resistance to the civil rights movement of the 1960s."

I'm sure you'll come back with some type of comment about 'former KKK member Senator Robert Byrd'.

Wrong comeback, as he listened, learned and changed his attitude about desegregation at the risk of losing elections.

Robby said...

Mike-

It doesn't really matter; he was either lying when he said "segregation now..." or he was lying when apologized for saying it. Either way he's an lying opportunist. It just seems self-evident to me that, considering how strongly he cozied up to the African-American community in the 80s (once it became convenient and/or neccessary), he was going to say anything he could to get elected, and his personal views on civil rights was (at least to him) insignificant.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Well, there are two general assumptions in play here.
1) The South (and maybe the entire country) never changes. Ever, ever, ever. People who weren't even alive when George Wallace ran for office (like me) should be judged by the people who voted for George Wallace. because whatever people of your parents generation did is your fault.

2) The entire South is like rural Alabama. The major urban centers like NOLA, Atlanta, and Austin are really just a bunch of stupid rednecks that would be happier on a farm. Also, none of us are educated, or we all go to schools that teach religion exclusively. Ignore the fact that New Orleans consistently voted liberal Democratic, and before Katrina wiped out half our population, we overpowered the rest of the state's tendencies because such an overwhelmingly high percentage of our population is liberal. Also, pretend that George Wallace was ever the governor of Louisiana.

Maybe there are more assumptions. Hold on, there's also

3) You cannot judge Maryland on the Eastern Shore conservatives. The whole state is either Baltimore or Montgomery and PG County. The rest of it is just some kind of vacation land the people in those three counties go to for vacations. Ignore Governor Ehrlich too. He was a long time ago. Like, 4 whole years ago. The 1960's were yesterday when we're talking about the South. But you can't judge MD by anything later than last week.

4) Statistics don't lie- I can say anything with statistics and it must be true. If I said 99% of doctors say sugary snacks are healthy-and neglect that the only other option we gave them in the survey was starvation-then it must be true. Absolutely.

And the overall trend toward greater conservativism in the South? That must be because we're all racists. Even the Black people that didn't vote for Obama.

Oh yeah, one more theing. The best way to win a greater share of Southern votes is to shit all over the few supporters you have down here like me. Because the more you insult me, the more likely I am to listen to you.


Of course! It all makes so much sense You yankees sure are smarter than we are, I tell ya. say, is your Northern superiority the reason why President Kerry did such an amazing job? Better than President Gore? Now, that President Mondale, he was really something, wasn't he? You guys sure do know how to win elections, yes sir. You don't need us Southern liberals at all to tell you what to do.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Mark,

Oh, it's a different kind of racism up North... that,s why its okay for you to be racist and its not okay for Southerners to be racist. I get it! And 164! You know, that was just around the corner. I wasn't alive yet then, but I guess you think the South never changes, which is why you had to pulls tats from 20 years ago out to throw in my face.

Hey, where was the Democratic Party on gay rights in 1964?

Fuck, for that matter, where are you now on GLBT rights?

Or did history just stop for you 45 years ago?

Statler N Waldorf said...

Oh, and one last thing..... who did NY vote for in 1964? Did they vote for Julian Bond, or some white guy?

Mike in Maryland said...

Statler N Waldorf said...
Oh, and one last thing..... who did NY vote for in 1964? Did they vote for Julian Bond, or some white guy?

Who did Louisiana vote for in 1964, Statler? Some conservative from Arizona, I believe.

History tells us it was Goldwater/Miller receiving 509,225 (or 56.81%) votes in Louisiana, and Johnson/Humphrey receiving 387,068 (or 43.19%) votes.

That means all 10 of Louisiana's Electoral College votes went to Goldwater in 1964, while New York's 43 Electoral College votes went to someone else.

Oh, yeah. I see that in 1968, Louisiana voted for George Wallace. He got more than 200,000 more votes than Humphrey and almost 300,000 more than Nixon. All 10 of Louisiana's Electoral College votes went to Wallace. That same year, all 43 of New York's Electoral College votes went to Humphrey.

Want more?

1972, the voters in Louisiana cast more than 65% of their votes for Nixon, while New Yorkers cast 58% of their votes for the scumbag.

1976? New Yorkers cast a higher percent of their votes for the winning Democratic candidate, James Earl Carter, than the voters of Louisiana did in support of President Carter.

In fact, the last time Louisiana had a higher per cent of the vote FOR a Democratic Presidential candidate than New York state was in 1956.

And you want to make a big deal about New York's vote in one election, an election in 1964?

Mike in Maryland

My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965

Sam D said...

Wallace was notoriously moderate in views. Blacks were glad to be in his court when he was a state judge because he was fair and he treated them with respect.

Then he ran for a different office, I forget which, and lost. He then said "I will never be out-niggered again."

And he wasn't. And he won.

But he did a few decent things quietly in office while on the outside and in public he was hateful.

Like many Republicans he cowered and placed himself at the head of the rabble. He did not use his power to educate and lead in a better direction.

And Alabama lagged the rest of the south.

I was at his last national press conference at the Alabama Legislature posing as a reporter with a borrowed steno pad. He was of course in his wheel chair by then.

Wallace loved campaigning, but was not so attentive to governing. Basically he was not a racist but used racism to advance himself.

Mark said...

Waldorf wrote:

"2) The entire South is like rural Alabama. The major urban centers like NOLA, Atlanta, and Austin are really just a bunch of stupid rednecks that would be happier on a farm. Also, none of us are educated, or we all go to schools that teach religion exclusively. Ignore the fact that New Orleans consistently voted liberal Democratic, and before Katrina wiped out half our population, we overpowered the rest of the state's tendencies because such an overwhelmingly high percentage of our population is liberal. Also, pretend that George Wallace was ever the governor of Louisiana."Once again, you wrote this, not I.

And yes, statistics give us a very clear picture, locally, regionally and nationally. Poo poo it if you want, it is your right in this our free and fully functioning republic based on democratic principles.

And just to be clear (and I am just amazed that I even have to explain this to another sentient human being...): racism is not acceptable anywhere on the planet, but the discussion was about the south, the deep south, and you started this tit-for-tat, so live with it or get out of the kitchen.

No, the south turned conservative for a number of reasons, but the main reason is quite obviously racism. Cracking open a political history book would have helped you here. Just to remind: the liberal movement started not in the democratic, but rather, the republican party. Teddy R. was a more liberal president than his democratic cousin FDR. As ideological movements gradually switched parties, the democratic "fit" in the south was not as good as it once was, and then the issue of civil rights hammered the last nails in the coffin of the marriage between the democratic party and the south.

Likewise, the NE, which was once a bastion of the GOP, and at that time very liberal, also noticed that the "fit" to the GOP no longer worked and switched sides.

There are just oodles of very, very intelligent people in the south. God knows I have been there enough to work with them. But they usually don't fly off the handle on a website just because the south, politically speaking, is indicated as racist, which it is, just to remind.

So, get off your horse and show the intelligence that God gave you.

Apparently, you belong to the "squeaky wheel gets the...." school of thought. I don't.

Robby said:

"Correction: George Wallace was not a racist, just an unscrupulous opportunist. The second he realized that he couldn't win as a segregationist, he "apologized" to black leaders and declared himself a "moderate" who never "really" believed in segregation."True, but once a racist, most likely always a racist, and were he not a politician, that scumbag Wallace would never have backpedaled.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Mark, fuck you. The truth is that politics is more complicated than you make it out to be.

Children like simple explanations. "Where did these presents come from? Why, Santa of course!"

There is no Santa. And Southern Politics is more complicated than you make it out to be.

I'd suggest you read this, but you may have written it

Statler N Waldorf said...

Now, what amazes me is that Mark is German and is bringing up past atrocities in the American South. Because Germany never did anything in it's recent past that could be described as a glass house to throw stones from.

Mark, you're 45 years old. What did your dad do during the war?

Mark said...

Statler wrote:

"Now, what amazes me is that Mark is German and is bringing up past atrocities in the American South. Because Germany never did anything in it's recent past that could be described as a glass house to throw stones from."I am an AMERICAN living in Germany. And my father was born in OHIO during the war. I was born in OHIO 18 year after the war.

I am also an american jew, so Statler, you are barking up the wrong tree. These comments are so inappropriate, the only thing a decent person could do would be to apologize. We will see if you are human enough to do this.

I have not used this kind of language against you. Please control yourself and act like a responsible adult.

geek said...

Gosh I read some of the comments and find generalizations about the NY 20th and the character of upstate and western NY many without merit.

Regardless, this was not an issue based campaign. Tedisco attempted to make it an anti-Obama and Democratic race, whatever that meant. Most Republicans in NY are what are often referred to as Rockerfeller Republicans, or conservative Democrats.

The NY 20th is hardly the sticks or in many parts not low cost of living. Go price a house or condo in Saratoga and while less than northern NJ or NYC hardly low cost.

Tedisco deserved the loss for running a horrible campaign and did a great job of making himself look like an unlikeable SOB.

peter said...

Al Franken actually won the Minnesota Senate race by a considerably bigger % margin than the GW Bush "victory" in Florida 2000, once you factor in the relative size of the state populations and the size of their respective voter pools.

And I don't remember the Wall St. Urinal editorializing in that instance....

Adam said...

I used to work at a Board of Elections in NYS. Well over 95% of ballots challenged by board staff are DOA. We leave anything remotely controversial to the campaigns.

Board challenges are going to be things like voter wrote their name on the ballot, voted for both candidates, or voted and then also wrote someone in. These all have solid court history of not counting, so the board tosses them before the candidates even get a chance.