Although Republican candidate Jim Tedisco is leaving no stone unturned in the special election in New York's 20th Congressional District -- including objecting to the ballot of Kirsten Gillibrand, the woman whom he hopes to replace in the Congress -- the results tallied so far suggest that he is bound for defeat.
So far, according to results released (.pdf) by the New York Secretary of State, Democrat Scott Murphy has received 53.0% percent of the 1,870 the absentee ballots thus far counted by election officials. This translates to a net gain of 112 votes, enough to put him 47 votes ahead of Tedisco once Election Day results -- adjusted to reflect the state's re-canvassing -- are added back into the total.
Notably missing from the absentee count so far is Saratoga County, where Tedisco racked up his largest margin over Murphy on Election Night. Will Tedisco gain enough votes from Saratoga to overtake Murphy?
Well, he might - if Saratoga were the only county with absentee ballots outstanding. But there are plenty of votes still to be counted in Murphy's stronger areas too. Only about 16 percent of absentee ballots have been counted in Coumbia County, only 12 percent in Warren County, and none at all in Washington County. Murphy won between 55.8 and 56.6 percent of the vote in each of these counties on Election Day.
In fact, the counties in which absentee ballots have been counted so far appear on balance to be highly representative of the district as a whole. If one takes a weighted average of the Election Day margin based on the number of absentee ballots processed in each county so far, one finds that 49.8% of the vote in these counties went to Murphy -- incrementally less than the 50.0% (actually, 49.98%) that he actually received. If anything, the ballots counted so far have come from (very, very slightly) red-leaning areas.
What this means is that Murphy is in fact overperforming among absentee ballots, as we and other observers anticipated that he might. In fact, the pattern has been rather predictable. Take a look at the following table:
Four counties -- Greene, Rensselaer, Delaware, and Essex -- have completed processing their absentee ballots. In each of those counties, Murphy received between 2.7 percent and 3.4 percent more of the vote among absentees than he did on Election Day. Although the pattern is a bit more irregular in counties that are only partially done with their count, we feel safe in saying that Murphy has some systematic advantage here.
Let's project out the outstanding ballots based on the following assumptions:
-- Murphy will overperform his election day result by 3.2 percent in each county,
as he has thus far.
-- The counting will cease when 87 percent of the absentee ballots returned in each county have been counted. Why 87 percent and not 100 percent? Because some absentee ballots will be illegal (or will be frivolously objected to as being so). In the four counties that have completed their count so far, an average of 87 percent of the absentee ballots returned were in fact agreed to be legal and counted.
We project Murphy to pick up roughly 500 additional votes once all absentee ballots have been counted. That would give him an overall win by somewhere between 500 and 600 votes.
This projection is fairly crude and relies on nothing other than simple algebra. So let's try a slightly more advanced version. In this case, I've employed regression analysis to estimate the fraction of absentee ballots that each candidate will receive in each county based on two factors: the election day totals and the partisan distribution (.pdf) of the absentee ballots returned. The model uses these factors to attempt to explain the actual distribution of absentee ballots in counties which have counted some or all of them thus far.
This version of the model posits a larger gain for Tedisco in Saratoga County -- a net of 132 votes rather than 33 as projected by the algebraic analysis. On the other hand, it projects a much larger gain for Murphy in Columbia County, where the absentee returns were disproportionately Democratic and where he has received more than two-thirds of the absentee ballots processed thus far. Overall, the "advanced" model projects almost exactly the same result -- about a 500-vote gain, and 550-vote win, for Murphy.
I am candidly a bit unsure about how to calculate the standard error for a forecast such as this one, but it appears to be, using conservative assumptions, roughly +/- 190 net votes. That would imply a 95 percent confidence interval of between Murphy +173 and Murphy +913, and that Tedisco has only about a 1-in-500 chance of prevailing.
EDIT: One caveat: Tedisco, somewhat mirroring the strategy of the Norm Coleman campaign, has started to challenge a ridiculously high fraction of ballots. These challenges may already be depressing Murphy's numbers, and therefore our estimate of his eventual margin of victory may be low. On the other hand, if Tedisco continues to escalate the frequency of his challenges in the interim, he may be able to hedge against Murphy's reported gains or possibly even to take a paper lead.
The challenge to Gillibrand's ballot, by the way, was incredibly dumb. If Tedisco and his staff are looking at the numbers objectively, he should know that his odds of winning are extremely long -- much longer than Norm Coleman's were at a comparable point in the counting process. Tedisco, however, only has to wait 19 months to challenge Murphy again rather than six years. Re-matches for House seats, moreover, have a much better track record than re-matches for Senate seats. So there are far more tangible consequences to him of losing the spin war and impairing his credibility going-forward, something which he may now have done irretrievably. If Tedisco has any semblance of political aptitude, he will withdraw the challenge and apologize on behalf of the overzealous staffer/lawyer who made it.
4.15.2009
Battle of Saratoga, Frivolous Challenges Won't Save Tedisco
by Nate Silver @ 12:14 AM...see also ny-20, special elections
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102 comments
I'm not sure it makes sense for Republicans to drag this one out, like they've in Minnesota (to no avail). All it does is re-enforce the message that Republicans are in bad bad shape. They should just let this one go, and let it be in the past, so people will forget that that democrats are more than competitive in solidly red districts.
Pack your bags, Michael Steele!
Well, the way I see it, if Jim Tedisco insists on supercilious ballot challenges, he should agree to pay for the recount himself-all of it-should he wind up losing.
If they did this to Coleman, making him pay Franken's lawyer fees and the recount's costsshould Coleman lose, the Minnesota trial would have ended months ago.
Tell these Republicans to put up or shut up. Make us a wager-winner take all, loser pays all-just to show you're serious. If you really think you'll win, then this isn't such a bad wager. If you're just dragging it out to be an asshole, then it's a bad wager and you'll back down.
It looks like the labels for Absentee ballots returned and counted in the first table are reversed.
Excellent news!
So does this mean Michael Steele is gone?
It would be best if they did get rid of Steele. He has not really made any positive contribution...all he's done is threaten to fund primary challengers for 3 GOP senators and been a total gaffe machine.
Republicans are in a tough spot. If they give them the boot it will only further show that they are a leader-less party that has no idea what direction it wants to go in. If they keep him he will continue to screw things up.
Nate,
There is something important missing in your analysis here: Military and Overseas ballots. They have only been counted in Delaware and Otsego Counties.
In Otsego County, there were four military ballots and they all went to Tedisco. Obviously, this is unlikely to happen by chance.
In Delaware County, there were 18 Military ballots and 15 Overseas ballots. Tedisco won these 19 to 14. The official statistics did not break down who won how many of the Military ballots and how many of the Overseas ballots.
Based on these numbers, I would guess that the Military ballots will go mostly for Tedisco and that the Overseas ballots will be more mixed. Since there are still around 180 more Military votes and about 190 more Overseas votes to count, this will influence the final results. It also means that your model is going to be off because it does not account for the fact that votes counted to date outside of Delaware and Otsego are not representitive of the total and probably are slanted a bit toward Murphy.
I did my own somewhat less fancy model of the absentee ballots and agree with the bottom line here. But I think that you may be overestimating Murphy's final total significantly because of the Military vote issue.
Also, there is some data on how is challanging votes and this should be put into your model.
Finally, your numbers in Otsego and Essex are off. There are not that many ballots left in Otsego. Recheck your numbers. Also, Tedisco challanged lots of ballots in Essex. Far more than Murphy. Murphy therefore probably will get some more votes out of Essex. There are challanged ballots in Renselaer, Delaware and probably Greene as well, but these might be a wash. I have been keeping track of challanged ballots from media reports. Treating Essex as done is misleading.
The challenge to Gillibrand's ballot, by the way, was incredibly dumb.Yeah, the pettiness and general oblivousness of these chuckleheads is just mind-boggling. Or it would be, were it not SOP these days for the Republicans. But between the Coleman/Franken saga, the teabagging debacle, and so on, even my more conservative friends & neighbors are kinda shaking their heads like "damn, what's up with these people?" The Republicans really are alienating pretty much everyone not in their hardcore base.
OT: Hey Nate, what are you doing still blogging after a score like this?
One last note: my model (which takes into account Party ID and election day results) before absentee counting projected Murphy to win absentees by 336. Based on the five counties to report so far, he seems to be overperforming very slightly - using those results in place of my model for the five counties, Murphy wins by 386. But if the military and overseas vote could bring the totals back toward the model's projection. For example, Murphy only beat my model by a total of 5 votes in Delaware and Otsego combined and these are the only places to count Military and Overseas.
So I'm not so confident that your project of Murphy overperforming by 3.2% is correct. It will be more in Columbia because there are a huge number of Dem absentee ballots there. But elsewhere, the picture is less clear . . .
I posted a model 2 days ago that had Murphy winning by 300. And I had enough confidence to bet $4000 on Intrade on the outcome.
http://www.wiserthanthecrowd.com/2009/04/still-looking-pretty-good-for-murphy.html
The only problem is that the judge is a GOP partisan hack.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/4/14/191335/772
Good solid analysis. Of course, with counting absentee ballots, it's always a crapshoot, but statistically, Murphy has the better cards in his hand.
The worse the GOP behaves (ready to teabag today :):)?!?!?), the better for the progressives and centrists. So, let Tedesco have his temper tantrum.
One thing I know is don`t go against Nate. It is apparent Tedesco knows he is going to lose and is pulling a Norm Coleman.
This will just make the GOP look even weaker and more of a sore loser. I kind of doubt this will end up in a Mn type recount but I am sure a court fight will ensue although winning a house seat is not worth all out war.
No matter how this turns out the republican party is the loser in the long run.
THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS!! FOR MICHAEL STEELE!!!
Another factor to consider is that the national GOP does not really gain anything by backing Tedesco through a hard fought challenge process the way they have with Coleman. Democrats have an embarrassingly large majority in the House where the only important number is 50%+1.
If Michael Steele is ousted as a result of a Murphy win there will be a new fight for party chairman.
My nominee is David Duke.
If the Republicans are THAT determined to become a fringe party
and that does appear to be their intent, then Duke is the right man for the job. The Republican Party can charge off the cliff with the Confederate battle flag waving proudly.
It ain't over til the Secretary of State sings.
"The military" as a voting bloc
The home county is likely to be a stronger predictor of how military absentee ballots will fall than the fact that they are all military. This is because the military is still (though admittedly not nearly as much as when I enlisted back in 1979)different from the general population mostly in that it over-represents, at least on the enlisted side, both the urban and the rural poor. The latter group, especially those of them who choose to join the military, are the Republican dead-enders in this country, and it therefore is not really surprising that they would go so one-sidedly Republican in these two counties that Tedisco carried overall. But it is also to be expected that Murphy will get equally lopsided margins from the urban poor military voters when those counties' military ballots are tallied.
The military vote is more internally polarized than that of the general population. It is therefore even less safe to project how it will do overall from how it did in two Republican counties, than it is to use county of residence as your basis of projection.
Thanks Nate for having one of the few articles about this race that don't mention Obama or Steele!
I think fighting tooth and nail for a house seat is dumb. Look what it did in the Fl district. 2006 the race was tied (or won by the Dem) but she fought and moaned and dragged out the fight for 2 years and then in 2008 she got beat badly.
But I think Tedisco knows he should of won this seat and his career is probabbly over now that he lost this seat.
Also, I'm sick of people assuming Tedisco won the military vote. A large number of military voters are minorities and a large number want to get out of Iraq/Afghanistan. Tedisco will probabbly win this base but not by the number he needs. Also, if you are in Afghanistan or Germany or Korea serving are you really going to vote in a House race? I think military votes will be a minority.
I'm forced to agree with "InsultComicDog". If Judge Brands really IS a Republican Party insider, who leans his decisions towards the Republicans anyway, then Murphy could wind up on the short end no matter what.
I find it a little more than coincidental, that he "needed" to go to the hospital for some "tests" right when a decision was needed on challenged absentee ballots.
Was he purposefully giving the Republicans more time to challenge as many ballots as possible? So he could rule in their favor and skew the election to Tedisco?
I wouldn't be shocked if that happened.
Is there any doubt now that Obama is seeking to eradicate conservatism through any means necessary?
Now he is demonizing them all through an alert to the Department of Homeland Security. An excerpt from page 2 of the report:
Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.So while they use language to insinuate they are only concerned with extremists, they also not-so-subtly hint that if you basically hold conservative positions you are going to be on their "watch list."
Are there any doubts now that Obama will have conservatives in gulag-style internment camps before the end of his presidency?
@ Contrarian:
Got any link to the *original* memo?
I found mention of it on the Free Republic website, but no link to the original memo there, either.
Can you locate it for me?
NY BOE Site has been updated (they post updates about 45 minutes after the 10 am/4 pm times stated in the PDF), Murphy now leads by 168. Machine recanvass now complete everywhere but Saratoga. Still no paper ballots from Saratoga or Washington. No time to recheck the numbers but odds look to be getting longer for Tedisco. Can't remember my html. NY BOE site is http://www.elections.state.ny.us/
PDF is at http://www.elections.state.ny.us/NYSBOE/Elections/2009/Special/20thCDSpecialUnofficialResults041509.pdf
Murphy picked up another 68 votes in Columbia County late yesterday -- too late to be included in the State BOE's end-of-day tally.
Ole Forsberg,
Here's a link to a Huff post article which includes the report/memo in it as well.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/14/homeland-security-report_n_186834.html
@Contrarian:
Thanks! I appreciate it.
Although I wish I could d/l the doc, read it, and save it.
C'est le vie.
The Contrarian: Is there any doubt now that Obama is seeking to eradicate conservatism through any means necessary?Conservatives had done just fine at eradicating themselves by implementing their policies over the last 15 years. To quote V.O. Key, "Voters are not fools."
The bottom line of this article is that when votes are counted, Democrats win.
Contrarian…There’s no need to do anything to eradicate conservatism, or at least the phony version that is practiced by the GOP. It’s dying of its own dead weight, much as communism did. Voices like yours—shrieking dire warnings—are merely its death gurgle.
Nice try, Contraraian, the Department of Homeland Security have got it spot on. I applaud Janet Napolitano and her people for not being politically correct. Wingnuts are a national security threat and have targeted the President of the United States for assasination, plain and simple.
BTW, come back when right-wing conservatives stop killing minorities, doctors, gays, blowing up abortion clinics and federal buildings, and inciting hatred and violence at presidential campaign rallys.
Here's where the Republican Party and it's platforn is heading, if it hasn't already:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party
Typical FReeptard whackjob:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party
That's what the party and it's conservative nutbase have turned into. If you're not even slightly concerned, then you're one of them, plain and simple.
http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/
Ken and Pragmatus,
Don't give me that crap. It's one thing to see the ebbs and flows of social mores and certain elements "die" a natural death as a result of apathy, technology, or changing attitudes and beleifs....and quite another for one group of idealists and ideologues to impose their beliefs on others by using veiled threats, intimidation, and fear-mongering.
There are elements on the left that no doubt want to see even the most moderate conservatives put into concentration camps and have their behavior "modifiied." And I'm sure they would love to see those holding more extreme views tortured and executed.
I despise extremism (left or right) as much as the next guy/gal, but if it is dormant and only in the shadows and not hurting anybody, we don't need the "thought police" out patrolling every move we make trying to "defend us" from these "dangerous" elements.
Puhlease. This is a subtle attempt to forcibly eradicate conservatism through intimidation. In other words, if you don't think/believe like us, you'll be under pressure from the government.
Conservative Blogs Smear U.S. Troopshttp://www.americablog.com/2009/04/omg-theyre-all-same-camera-except.html
Top Republican again suggests that economy is doing fine
The media is missing a huge story. What once seemed like unrelated stories, are now evidence of a large pattern of statements and actions by the Republicans, explained by the fact that they do not believe that the economy is in trouble.1. Phil Gramm says we're a nation of whiners.
2. John McCain says on the campaign trail last fall that the fundamentals of the economy are sound.
3. House Republicans torpedo the bailout as everyone else sits in fear that the market is in a talspin.
4. Nearly every single Republican votes against the stimulus package.
5. Numerous Republican governors reject their own state's stimulus money, threatening their own local recovery and the national recovery.
6. Cantor says Democrats are "overreacting" to the economic situation.
7. Steele says he still sees lots of people shopping at the malls.
8. Conservatives, led by Gingrich and Armey, hold nationwide Teabagging protests today in opposition to the stimulus package that was necessary to stop us from going into a depressionThen today, the #2 Republican in the House, Eric Cantor, again suggested that the Democrats are overreacting and that the economy was not in trouble.
Democrats in Congress are taking advantage of citizen fears about the nation’s economy for political gain, U.S. Rep. Eric Cantor told area Republicans here Tuesday.
“There seems to be a disconnect between what is really happening in our economy and how the federal government is reacting,” said Cantor, R-Va., the GOP minority whip – his party’s No. 2 member in Congress.
“The more I am outside the Beltway, the more I understand why everybody seems to be scratching their heads wondering, ‘What in the world are they doing up in Washington?’ ” he said.
Every example I cited above can easily be explained if the Republicans simply do not believe that the economy is in trouble. This isn't just out of touch, it's delusional. I seriously have no explanation for how an entire political party can look around this country right now and not see an economy in trouble.
Finally, as for "using fear" to scare the public, that's classic. Remember, they always accuse of us doing what we're not, and what they already have.http://www.americablog.com/2009/04/top-republican-again-suggests-that.html
I'm surprised that no one is questioning why Saratoga County is not reporting any paper results. I grew up there, and the Republican machine was *infamous*.
BTW, come back when right-wing conservatives stop killing minorities, doctors, gays, blowing up abortion clinics and federal buildings, and inciting hatred and violence at presidential campaign rallys.Proof? When was the last time an abortion clinic was blown up? I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but seriously, how often does that happen? And I'm not denying those are extremist nutjobs who need to be targeted. But they're no different from ALF and ELF and the like from the left. They're violent nutjobs, and DHS doesn't need to send around a memo for that kind of jackass.
They specifically want to target conservatives, even moderate ones.
How many people have Islamofascists killed in the US and around the world since 2000?
Now, how many people have been killed by "rightwing extremists" in the US and around the world since 2000?
Yeah, thought so. You're just an ignorant prick and bigot. It's just that your bigotry is "excused" because it's not against a gender, sexual orientation, age, race, culture, or religion. It's against an ideology. Conservative ideology. You seethe hatred for conservatives and, admit it, you'd love to see every one of them chained, shackled, and tortured.
"Puhlease. This is a subtle attempt to forcibly eradicate conservatism through intimidation. In other words, if you don't think/believe like us, you'll be under pressure from the government."
So you're not an extremist? Hmm, could've fooled me with the talk of extermination camps for conservatives. Come back when you have the barest shred of proof.
Nate, we need a new comment system. The one we're using now is like something from the mid-nineties.
They're violent nutjobs, and DHS doesn't need to send around a memo for that kind of jackass.That's why, as noted by Anderson Cooper and David Gergen last night, a memo like this is nothing extraordinary. DHS is basically warning that more far-right extremists like Timothy McVeigh could be on the way. Also, I'm glad they send out memos for these kind of jackasses. Bush recieved numerous warnings of an imminent terrorist attack. Instead, he went on extended vacation, and both he and his cabal allowed it to happen.
Mr. Silver,
You're the best.
Thank you.
Fuck you, Porridge. You're just a left-wing radical who advocates violence from the other end of the spectrum. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. You're nothing more than a fat ass pimple.
Obama = totalitarian extremist
'Nuff said.
Contrarian… This is what some of your pals are saying. If they (and you) don’t spell N-U-T-J-O-B I’ll eat my hat.
What a classic video. I can't wait to see today's videos.
Ever heard of 'freedom of speech' (and thought) Pragmatus. They can say and think what they what so long as those thoughts/words don't infringe on the rights of others.
The same applies to left-wing wackos. You can't have a double-standard. Look, there are truly stupid, extremist nutjobs out there, but you can't control what they say/think. Our personal liberties are being washed away...
There's something else Nate's leaving out of his calculation -- the influence of Judge James V. "Pizza Stain" Brands.
You gotta figure in the corruption factor.
This was one of the best comments I saw in response to the video. It hits the nail squarely on the head. Read it and weep fucktards:
WAR IS WRONG (Unless a Democrat is President)
MOVE ON (Whenever WE are caught doing something bad)
CORPORATIONS ARE EVIL (Unless it's payday)
FREE SPEECH & TOLERANCE (Except for conservatives)
NO VIOLENCE (Unless WE need it to protest)
NO RACISM or SEXISM (Except if you hate white males)
FUCK THE POLICE (Unless we need one)
FIGHT AUTHORITY (Unless WE are in authority)
Here's an example of right wing domestic terrorism from last year, along with my commentary on it.
Uubuntu,
Again, those are the hardcore nuts. I'm not denying they exist. The government should be on alert.
But they singled out in the report "groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration" among others.
Quit using the straw men arguments. Of course there are dangeroud right-wing loons, like the one shooting up the unitarian church.
I'm telling you quite frankly though that this administration is wanting to put all conservatives, even moderate and peaceful ones, on their watchlist because of their ideology.This is dangerous folks. Very. Freaking. Dangerous.
Elements on the left have immense power right now, and there's nothing they'd like more than to see conservative thought completely eradicated via genocide.
PorridgeGun is yet to answer my question so I'll ask it again:
Porridge, would you be happy to see all avowed conservatives chained, shackled, and tortured? Or at least in gulag-style concentration camps? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will do.
I don't think there's a person left in the Republican Party who has any clue on which path to take out of the wilderness. I mean, they couldn't even do a google search before selecting the name they adopted for their tax protests.
In the words of Stephen Colbert.. the teabaggers are all just flapping their gums at low-hanging fruit.
The Contrarian said...
"...It hits the nail squarely on the head...."
April 15, 2009 12:56 PM
*********
@Contrarian
because it's sooooo easy to reverse your statement,the question is:
On which head ???
Pragmatus said...
This is what some of your pals are saying.
April 15, 2009 12:40 PM
*********
Wow !!!
sort of peace and love ???
:P
The Contrarian said...
I'm telling you quite frankly though that this administration is wanting to put all conservatives, even moderate and peaceful ones, on their watchlist because of their ideology.
April 15, 2009 1:14 PM
**********
@Contrarian,
can you please provide a link to that list ????
(you know ...I have got Republican relatives in US to take care off...just in case)
I'll be waiting...
:P
Here's a link to the document that vilifies an entire wing of their party, marking them as a political threat because of their beliefs, and undoubtedly ushering in an era of forced re-education camps.
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/780410-SHVVvq/native/780410.PDF
Wayward Son said...
April 15, 2009 1:24 PM
**********
ok,I got it.
Contrarian is worrying (?) about the list because HE KNOWS that GOP ALREADY DID it.
What can I say Contrarian ???
Maybe is what you deserve,all in all:
"a la guerre comme a la guerre "
McCarthy docet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy
bye.
p.s.
go Obama !
Contrarian… I am guessing that you are trying to draw a distinction between yourself and the “right wing nutjobs”. I’m having a hard time seeing that distinction based on these comments of yours—
♦ “Are there any doubts now that Obama will have conservatives in gulag-style internment camps before the end of his presidency?”
♦ “There are elements on the left that no doubt want to see even the most moderate conservatives put into concentration camps and have their behavior "modifiied." And I'm sure they would love to see those holding more extreme views tortured and executed.”
♦ “You're just an ignorant prick and bigot. It's just that your bigotry is "excused" because it's not against a gender, sexual orientation, age, race, culture, or religion. It's against an ideology. Conservative ideology. You seethe hatred for conservatives and, admit it, you'd love to see every one of them chained, shackled, and tortured.”
♦ “Fuck you, Porridge. You're just a left-wing radical who advocates violence from the other end of the spectrum. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. You're nothing more than a fat ass pimple.”
♦ “This was one of the best comments I saw in response to the video. It hits the nail squarely on the head. Read it and weep fucktards:”
Now, where I grew up (Arizona) anyone who uses words/phrases like “Fuck you”, “ass pimple” and “fucktard” in the course of a discussion would be regarded as not putting forth a reasoned argument.
@The Contrarian
You're absolutely right. There is a grand conspiracy by Obama and the evil Liberals to destroy all conservative thought. By all means, go out and tell EVERYONE you see about it.
That is the road back to credibility and relevance for your cause.
Contrarian,
A similar report on left wing terrorist activity was released by the DSH on January 26, 2008 (see http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Leftwing_Extremist_Threat.pdf for a copy of the report)indicating that the latest report is part of a series of updates that date back to the Bush years.
I suppose you could say that since it was released while Obama was President that he is targeting the left too.
That's bs mikeyes and you know it. That reporte released on 1/26/09 specifically talks about "cyber attacks"...so that's a little like comparing apples to oranges when you target fears of violence and insurrection on rightwing extremists and computer hacking on leftwing extremists.
Secondly, the report you linked listed several organizations by name, making it clear who they are worried about.
The memo I linked was ambiguous and left the impression they were targeting a very broad swath of conservative thought. It said, and I repeat, "groups or individuals opposed to a single issue, such as abortion or immigration."
This has gotten out of hand. There will be rioting in the streets if this persists. The people are watching their liberties slip right out from under them.
The left is completely unhinged. There are elements on this very site willing to destroy conservatives...they don't want to co-exist, they want to annihilate them. Torture, execute, etc.
Even Porridge couldn't deny his desire to see a violent end for many conservatives. I'll ask him again and give him one more shot: Porridge, do you want to see conservatives, even moderate and peaceful ones, destroyed or at least put into concentration camps until they are "reformed."
Be honest. You haven't denied it yet. It's becoming clearer that you are an extreme radical who wants to bully conservatives and longs for their suffering. God help us!
The Contraian might be a wingnut
but he is balancing the overwhelming majority of leftwingnuts on here hence the name the contraian at least his name is somehwat amusing
Leftwingnuts (just some of the more popular ones)
Porridgegun
Pragmatus
Mike in Maryland
nova_middle_man said...
Leftwingnuts (just some of the more popular ones)
Porridgegun
Pragmatus
Mike in Maryland
April 15, 2009 2:59 PM
***********
Really hilarious,
now please tell me again Contrarian:
who is the one whom makes list ???
Thanks, nova. Even if it is a subtle jab.
I hardly think of myself as a wingnut and while confortably conservative on a lot of issues, I don't feel dogmatic on any of them and actually am a bit moderate on a few others.
Per your list, a name I'd like to add who seems like a nice guy on the surface just passionate about causes but seems about as far left as they come with some of his ideas his Statler N Waldorf.
PorridgeGun is yet to deny he'd like to see conservatives chained, shackled, and tortured.
I can honestly say I want no one of any political persuasion or anything else that differentiates them from me to be harmed in any way. If someone breaks the law and harms somebody else (or me), then they should be punished. But I don't advocate oppression and misery on people for what they believe, think, or say if it doesn't hurt anyone else.
matador,
I'm sorry, but you're English is broken and scattered, so I assume you are either a foreigner or have a very low IQ. Maybe it's both...just wondering aloud. Sorry.
Either way, your retorts are incoherent for the most part to me, but the things you write which I can discern make you come across as an annoying son of a bitch.
You really haven't contributed that much to the conversation except to be a rambling smart ass with bad grammar.
Sorry, I just can't respond to ignorance or stupidity, whichever it is.
Contrarian,
sorry,english is only my fourth langauge.
About the IQ:
Maibe mine is not like yours (I apologize) but was enough to gave me a degree "magna cum laude" in mechanical engeneering.
In grace of that I got and still have a brilliant career.(I also worked in Ferrari-that Ferrari,you know Schumaker ecc...ecc...)
aloha.
oh btw:
how many foreign languages do you speak,because maibe if you don't like my english we can relate in french or spanish...
:)
Nate provides us with a very smart numerical analysis, but there is another clue to how this is going to turn out, and it's the fact that the Tedisco team has chosen to obstruct and delay the vote-counting process at every opportunity-- a sure sign that they know they are in trouble.
One of the reasons for Murphy's over-performance among absentees is the fact that the 20th District has been a Republican stronghold since 1776, and the GOP runs a hard-nosed patronage system here. If you want a job in County or State government, it's in your best interest to be a registered Republican. I know a lot of folks who vote Democratic, but remain registered as Republicans because that's the only way for them to find work. But at election time, the truth comes out, and it has worked against Tedisco.
Yo no hablo español muy bien, pero estoy dispuesto a darle un tiro. Ese es el único idioma que he estudiado, además de Inglés.
Felicitaciones por su licenciatura en ingenierÃa mecánica con honores. Tengo una maestrÃa en economÃa, asà como una licenciatura en derecho.
Contrarian sounds a lot like Smoking Aces to me - swearing, calling people out to respond, etc.
Anyone else see it?
wv: forriz - where snoop dogg goes camping.
muy bien hermano.
Yo creo que la recesión económica y la elección del primer presidente negro en la historia del paÃs han hecho que aumente en Estados Unidos el extremismo de derechas, que recluta nuevos miembros entre los veteranos de guerra frustrados que vuelven de Irak o Afganistán.
Estos grupos de ultraderecha explotan el miedo de los ciudadanos y utilizan los desahucios, el paro y la pobreza como caldo de cultivo perfecto para que los descontentos con el sistema se sumen a sus filas.
hasta nueva.
:)
The Contrarian: The left is completely unhinged. There are elements on this very site willing to destroy conservatives...they don't want to co-exist, they want to annihilate them. Torture, execute, etc.That's just wrong, and The Contrarian should know it. Yes, there are lunatics on both sides. But it's wrong to take a few statements by a few people on one message board (or even in the entire online community) and appropriate them to "the left." I could just as easily take Pat Robertson and attribute his views to the entire conservative movement--but that wouldn't mean it was accurate, or that the right was "completely unhinged" just because Pat Roberston is.
So tone it down, dial it back, agree to disagree, and get over it. And speaking as objectively as possible, I see no threat to conservatives voicing their ideas. Freedom of speech is not endangered by this administration.
As far as violent actions go, though...I haven't read the report, but I can't think of serious violent threats or actions endangering lives from many left-wing groups. I can from right-wing groups and individuals (shooting abortion doctors, beatings of immigrants, Oklahoma City), and self-described "militia" groups with stockpiles of guns tend to be on the rightward fringe.
As a blog in The Economist states, Republicans would be better off distancing themselves from their extremist elements instead of getting pissed off over criticism of them.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/04/extremism_in_the_defense_of_li.cfm
@Contrarian,
if you didn't get my spanish,FYI:
Homeland Security Report:
Right-Wing Terrorist Threat Growing.
http://vyan.blogspot.com/2009/04/homeland-security-report-right-wing.html
have a nice day.
a bientôt .
Estoy de acuerdo con los fundamentos de lo que está diciendo. Mi punto es que parece que están ampliando la definición para incluir a los conservadores que de otro modo inofensivo. ¿Por qué? No lo sé, pero parece que quieren seguir de cerca a quien no comparte la misma ideologÃa.
but I can't think of serious violent threats or actions endangering lives from many left-wing groups. I can from right-wing groups and individuals (shooting abortion doctors, beatings of immigrants, Oklahoma City)That's bullshit. Ever heard of ALF and ELF? Anyway, shooting abortion doctors and the beating of immigrants are very rare occurences, especially the former. And Oklahoma City was atrocious and at the hands of an unhinged person, period. He could be labelled right-wing, I'm sure, but he was the nuttiest of nuts, and people who would do something like that should be on everybody's watch list.
The DHS report seems like they're going to have their eyes on people who simply disagree with abortion or immigration, hardly extremist stances. Having concern for unborn life, whether or not you agree with someone on where life begins, and worried about the influx of numerous peoples into a country and the implications that has on a nation's sovereignty, its culture and language, and its labor force are not deserving to be lumped in with extremists.
Tou guys keep going back to the straw man of the hardcore extremists but can't give a logical reply as to why they seem to be including more moderate conservative elements.
When I read that sentence on page 2, it tells me that they think I am worthy of being watched by Big Brother because I oppose abortion and illegal immigration and even think legal immigration should be kept in check.
Or the Black Panthers?
Dsimon must be one of those numbskulls who thinks anybody who poses a "threat" must be a rightwinger, no matter how far left their ideology is. Illogical correlation, at best, and flat out self-delusional dishonesty, at worst.
You said you couldn't think of any "left-wing" groups that have or do pose a threat, and I quickly threw out the Animal Liberation Front, the Earth Liberation Front, and the Black Panthers.
Greenpeace, the Humane Society of the United States, and PETA are milder forms but are noteworthy as having extreme views who require attention.
Give me a little time and I can uncover loads of unhinged leftwingers who've done plenty of damage and intend on doing more.
You've been living with your head in the sand, douchebag.
Saratoga County #'s just came out... tedisco gained 163 votes but it would appear that it wont be enough...
Chatting with a friend today, it occurred to us that most of the absentee voters that Tedisco is frothing about are people who RENT in the city, yet OWN their second home upstate. So they are paying property and school taxes on their upstate country home, which is a good (and very Republican) argument for the legitimacy of their absentee ballot.
The Contrarian:
Dsimon must be one of those numbskulls who thinks anybody who poses a "threat" must be a rightwinger, no matter how far left their ideology is. Illogical correlation, at best, and flat out self-delusional dishonesty, at worst.If you read my post, I warned against attributing extremist views of anyone to the entire group, left or right.
You said you couldn't think of any "left-wing" groups that have or do pose a threat, and I quickly threw out the Animal Liberation Front, the Earth Liberation Front, and the Black Panthers.
Greenpeace, the Humane Society of the United States, and PETA are milder forms but are noteworthy as having extreme views who require attention.I said I couldn't think of any which posed a threat to people's lives. Last time I checked, ALF hadn't killed anyone, though I agree their property violence is troubling. None of the other groups you mentioned have posed serious threats. (Except the Black Panthers, and that was decades ago; care to come up with something a little more contemporary, or do we have to extend the statute of limitations to more than 30 years?)
The DHS report seems like they're going to have their eyes on people who simply disagree with abortion or immigration, hardly extremist stances.While there are nutcases that are part of groups, that doesn't mean those groups are nutcases. I see no threat whatsoever to those who speak their minds with whatever vehemence they desire. And if one arises, I'll side with you to oppose any attempt to silence those voices, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.
Do you still want to call me a douchebag without knowing anything more about me or my views? A little humility in the face of the unknown is always a wise move.
Okay, so maybe you're not so bad. I think you underestimate some of the more dangerous elements of the far left, but whatever. We both agree extremists on both sides are bad news.
You're far better than PorridgeGun, who still can't stomach to reply to me and deny he'd like to see conservatives, even moderate and peaceful ones, face physical torment. I'm left to assume he really would want to see conservatives mocked and torture. All I asked for was a simple yes or no, and he couldn't do it.
That's disgusting.
4PM ResultsWith Saratoga reporting Murphy up by 86!
@Contrarian:
I think there's something you're missing in what you keep bringing up:
"It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a
single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration"
Maybe it's my admittedly left-of-center (on average) POV, but I don't read this statement or any of the report (haven't read 100% yet) as unduly including moderate Right-Wing elements. This statement, which you've quoted at least twice, is simply stating that these may be among the influences of extremists. Someone willing to bomb an abortion clinic (truly "extremist") doesn't seem to be as worked up over minimalizing the government, gay marriage, or other "right wing" issues, but being anti-abortion is obviously one of the "Right" issues that can lead to extremists. I don't think anyone is denying that, not even you.
This document is using broad strokes to say, "These are some of the issues that may influence extremists and may lead to further recruitment." Should our law enforcement officials not be tipped off for potential influences? If not, then why the big scare over Muslims?
Overall, everything I've read in this document (and yes, I've got the complete original) has a moderate tone and isn't pointing any fingers. I'd like to read the "left wing extremists" version from January to compare, but I doubt the tone is very much different.
And yes, I very much doubt anyone (besides bizarre whack-job Leftist extremists) are seriously considering putting people in internment camps. In addition to being one of the stupidest things a leader in this country could do and something that would ultimately be impossible, despite certain opinions to the contrary, our president is not that extreme and is certainly not that stupid.
And if, by some impossibly far-fetched chance they do, let me know and I'll get my gun to help you defend your house.
May I remind everyone?
Do
Not
Feed
The
Trolls
DNFTT
One TROLL (especially) is dragging this discussion off the NY-20 race; another TROLL is supporting the first TROLL; and other TROLLs are jumping in with random comments that are not discussing the topic.
DNFTT
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
@The Contrarian
Don't flatter yourself. I don't spend every minute online reading 538 comments.
I haven't read your previous ramblings, but I'll answer your question, which I literally read a minute ago. YES, absolutely. I want to see conservative Republicans (aka FReeptards and Eliminationists) taken down, by any means necessary. These people are delusional at best, and extremely dangerous at worst.
BTW, If you knew anything about me and comments here, you wouldn't even need to ask such a question. For me, there is no question. My comments history tells you everything you need to know about I feel about wingnuts. As I pointed out earlier, today's Republican party platform is almost identical to the far-right BNP. In fact, it could be argued they're to the right of the BNP.
Fuck me, how many comments have you posted on this thread, Contrarian? You're worse than 538's designated douchebag Pete Kent.
And if, by some impossibly far-fetched chance they do, let me know and I'll get my gun to help you defend your house.Thank you! I know there are plenty, but it's always good to see one good-hearted left-of-center individual. And you have my promise that I'll do anything and everything to defend you from right-wing zealots and nutcases.
PorridgeGun = busted. Your hatred and bloodlust for conservatives must be unquenchable. You openly and freely admit you'd like to see even more pacifist conservatives taken down by "any means necessary." Admit it. You'd love to see these people tortured and executed. Nothing gets you off more than seeing a conservative tormented, huh? I hope everybody is taking a good look at Mr. Gun. It's people like that and his thought process that have conservatives ready to take up arms. He's dangerous.
I cannot comprehend why the (presumably) liberals here want Steele out. Why would you want a stronger person leading the OPPOSITION party? This is politics, not kindergarten.
@Shawn Brunelle
How sure are you that the current results include Saratoga? If they do, then this race is truly over. :)
@Saint Dude:
I'd say 100% sure. The NYS Board of Elections lists Saratoga as complete and recanvassed with military votes counted.
http://www.elections.state.ny.us/NYSBOE/Elections/2009/Special/20thCDSpecialUnofficialResults041509b.pdf
Hey, Contrarian,
You're funny. You almost had me there, with your tinfoil-hat-and-protective-underwear-wearing rant about "internment camps" and "gulags." But it's so over the top, I know that you're just satirizing the wingnuts of Freeperville.
Those wingnuts ignore the fact that the Bush Administration was trying to sell the fear of "enviro-terrorism" to anyone who'd listen (aka the Mainstream Media), despite the fact that nobody had ever died as a result of Earth First's or other enviro-orgs' activities.
The wingnuts ignore the fact that right-wing terrorists have killed many more people in America than left-wingers. (I'm not only talking about Tim McVeigh and James Kopp, butt also Southern police during the Civil Rights era and, not least, the KKK.)
Wingnuts can try to argue that, by mentioning the threat of rightwingnut terrorism (that guy in Pittsburgh who shot cops, for e.g., or the piece of human excrement who attacked a Unitarian church), the Feds would somehow take their collective eye off the ball of international terrorism. Jeez, do ya think that a government of that size can take on two projects at once?
Thanks, Cont. You made my day.
Matt,
I think some who can't focus on more than one thing at a time (i.e., chew gum and walk at the same time?) have the opinion that no one else can either.
Mike in Maryland
My Blogger ID is http://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965
Unless Murphy challanged far more ballots in Saratoga than Tedisco, we can call this for Murphy. I imagine the challange breakdown should come out soon. If Tedisco isn't sitting on lots of challanged votes in Saratoga, he is now facing the Norm Coleman catch-22. He needs more ballots to be opened in order to win, but as more ballots are opened, he will fall further behind.
The really good news here for Murphy is that he should be in the lead going into ballot challanges. Tedisco's beat hope before today was to grab a slight lead by challanging lots more ballots than Murphy and then have the Judge sustain most of the challanges. It looks like that isn't going to work.
This means that Tedisco has to beat Murphy's challanges to get more votes. But applying more liberal rules to the challanges will mean that more Murphy votes are opened as well. If the Judge is wildly more friendly to Tedisco challanges than Murphy challanges even though there are many more Tedisco challanges, then this would leave him vulnerable to reversal on appeal.
It looks like I was wrong to be worried about overseas and military ballots. It is hard to tell how they broke in most counties, but however things turned out, Tedisco is not getting nearly enough of them to make a difference.
GreeneGBlue: Thanks for the link. It shows Saratoga complete, but only about 1175 votes counted. This is about 750 votes less than Nate has in his table, which suggests a slew of contested ballots. If all of remainder are counted, and follow the voting preference of 57% for T of the AB counted thus far, T gains 50 in the overall count.
Not enough to overcome his current deficit, let alone expected losses in blue counties that have not finished counting AB or the frivolous contested ballots.
I think Murphy ought to support Tedisco's request to extend the military deadline to 45 days. The additional military ballots that come in between now and the 28th are not going to swing this election. So, why not do the right thing AND take away the wingnuts #1 talking point?
Earlier posts insightfully noted that the military vote is polarized between rural white and urban black demographics. I'll add that there is likely to be a strong difference between combat soldiers and support soldiers. Support soldiers can be expected to have more militaristic attitudes since they have only indirect or no experiences of the horrors of war, and are at minimal personal danger. My recollection of the US army is a 1:6 ratio. I am personally familiar with this phenomenon in the Israeli army.
I think Peter's comment about absentee voters registered in this district because they own a second home there is interesting. It turns out New York voters have the right to be registered to vote at a secondary residence rather than their primary one (and obviously this is regardless of whether they're renting or owning in either place).
I personally wouldn't suggest that the government come up with standards for a person's residence to be considered primary or secondary. For some people it would be too complicated to figure out. But it does seem unfair for people to get voting power in a district they like to vacation in just because they're rich enough to own property there. I would personally be pretty pissed off if I lived and worked in a town and my political representation was diluted by the votes of occasional visitors (it would be especially maddening in local politics, where opinions on many issues could break sharply on resident-vacationer lines). Furthermore, I'd hope that people, regardless of how many homes they own, would want to be politically involved where they actually live instead of where they visit.
I'm not sure what Tedisco had to say exactly about this, how many voters really aren't residents in any meaningful way, and the political tendencies of those voters. If there are many of them, regardless of their leanings, I think it's a pretty fair complaint.
In their frantic quest to consolidate their base, R's are marginalizing themselves further. It's unfortunate in a way, since it takes some opposition to keep a one party government on it's toes, and D's are nothing if not human.
Still, the backlash from the Bush horror years is so deep and was so long in developing that R's shouldn't expect to be trusted for a while.
Steele should stay no matter what. He's fun in a bed-buggy sort of way. When he's on, his eyes rotate in opposite directions. And although I'm not a hip hop fan, where is the stuff Steele promised? Bring it on, man! Entertain the wrong-thinkin', crack-headed youth of today so hard that they straighten out just from the righteous conservative vibe!
Al Dimond,
Those full-time upstate residents you speak of are mighty happy to have lots of financial input from the second home owners, so IMHO they are in no position to grumble that downstaters are diluting their voting pool. Here in Columbia County we'd be dead without the second home owners from NY City. They pay huge property taxes and give a lot of support to our local merchants, while imposing almost no burden on the local infrastructure (including the schools.)
Voting is supposed to be a right and not a commodity. People should exercise their political power where they have a stake in the matter: where they rely on the local infrastructure, schools, and economy. Without that stake there's not much reason they should be voting there. They have the value of their property to worry about, but that alone isn't enough -- they aren't investors in a company whose directors have a fiduciary duty to them (if they want to be they should buy into, say, one of those "homeowners' associations" in Arizona and see how that works out). Hopefully the locals realize the value in keeping them happy, but it's ultimately their decision because they're the one with real stakes in the community's representation.
The way to thank the vacationers is by saying, "Thank you." Not by calling them residents when they're something very different. It sounds to me like these people really just want to ride their wealth into increased influence in the national and state politics.
There's even a website for New York second home owners' voting rights, sponsored by a Democratic lawyers' organization. It's careful not to sound too opportunistic, but it does give people advice for dealing with the oh-so-unfair situation of NYC landlords challenging their status as residents and thus their eligibility for rent control based on their out-of-city voting registration. Look, I'm a pretty big liberal. If you own a second home you don't need rent control (aside from the whole argument whether rent control is good in the first place -- I bet a lot of people that benefit from it and yet own second homes think it's a bad idea with obvious negative unintended consequences... personally it's not something I've studied enough to have a position on, not being a New Yorker). And while I'd be wary of the government trying to decide who counts as a city resident with a country home and who counts as a country resident that rents an apartment to ease the work commute, I think it's undemocratic for people to use their wealth to sit on the fence. Even if they do it with the ultimate effect of making Congress agree with me more often.
To "contrarian":
I guess I'm what you would call a "liberal", and no, I really don't want right-wing loonies (I refuse to use the term "conservative" because there's nothing conservative about modern-day fascists) rounded up, put into camps, tortured, and executed.
I *do* however, want them rounded up, shipped to Guantanamo Bay, and waterboarded until they cry like little babies.
That may seem extreme, but keep in mind that republican "lawyers" repeatedly argued that waterboarding isn't torture, and they're the experts, so I have to go along with their expertise.
I'm sure you'll agree that because I'm not actually torturing right-wing loonies, I'm in the clear on this.
Does that answer your question, you d*psh*t?
I don't view myself as a "liberal" -- although I suspect many a current "republican" today might.
I'm in favor of "tough questioning" for the senior bush administration, as well as anyone involved in same during the bush years. If they admit to torturing others, they get a secret military tribunal.
No further information will be forthcoming.
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