3.17.2009

Why Was AIG's Stock Up 66% Today?

Here's a surprise: the stock of American International Group (AIG) was one of the leading performers on Wall Street today, gaining some 66 percent to close at $0.83 on extremely heavy volumes.



The stock gained 11 cents (22%) on the opening tick this morning, perhaps partly in response to Ben Bernanke's comments to "60 Minutes" in which he suggested that the experience of Lehman Brothers had taught him that some companies (presumably including AIG) were indeed too big to let fail. But the larger part of the gains came later in the day, especially between 10 and 11 AM, just as the public outcry over payments of some $165 million in bonuses to executives in AIG's financial products unit appeared to be gaining steam.

This seems, at first, like rather unusual behavior for the stock. The fact that the story about bonus compensation caught so much political fire today (it wasn't really news; AIG stated on January 27 that it would pay the bonuses as originally planned) would seem like bad news for AIG's remaining private shareholders, as it substantially deceases the likelihood that the government will provide further assistance to AIG without continuing to dilute them.

One interpretation, however, for the sharp increase in the stock price (although I doubt it's the only one and don't know if it's the best one) would rest on the following two assumptions. Firstly, the public outcry today makes it more likely that the government will find some mechanism to enable AIG to break what it says are contractual commitments to pay the bonuses; and secondly, that failing to pay the bonuses is a good bottom-line business decision.

The first assumption probably isn't controversial, but the second one might be. I have quite a bit of sympathy for Megan McArdle's argument: the fact that AIG as a whole performed very, very (very, very) badly doesn't mean that some individual employees didn't perform fairly well. In general, we tend to overestimate the correlation between the performances of individual employees and the performance of a firm; to employ a baseball analogy, the fact that the Atlanta Braves were awful last year does not mean that Chipper Jones didn't have a great year. AIG didn't fall to pieces because all of its individual employees and executives just so happened to have an off year; it did so because of far more fundamental and longstanding flaws with certain parts of its business model, perhaps enabled by a lack of appropriate government regulation. (To be certain, the same phenomenon works in reverse, with individual employees tending to get too much credit in years where a firm performs well).

The performance of AIG's stock today, however, calls into question the notion that permitting unchecked executive compensation is a necessary evil for getting AIG and other financial institutions back on their feet. It wasn't just AIG's share price that was up today, by the way; Citibank was up 31%, Fannie Mae 29%, and Freddie Mac 21%. Is Wall Street implicitly endorsing executive pay caps for these troubled companies?

Of course, capping executive compensation is not the same thing as (what AIG claims would be) reneging on contracts. There are lots of circumstances in which a firm -- ethical considerations of course aside -- would prefer not to have to pay out compensation that it had contracted to pay, particularly if it had already received the benefit of the services provided by the contractor. This holds whether or not the initial contract was profitable: if you pay me $10 to run a lemonade stand that makes you $9 in marginal revenue, you'd prefer not to have to pay me the $10 if you could get away with it. But the same holds if you'd agreed to pay me $10 to run a lemonade stand that nets $11 in sales.

Nevertheless, as today's festivities probably increase the likelihood that any future bailout actions will be conditioned upon restrictions on executive compensation, the fact that the stocks of the companies which are most likely to be the targets of those bailouts all performed well today may be telling. Or it may not be. But it is far from clear that extremely high levels of executive compensation ultimately benefit the shareholders of the companies that those executives manage, let alone the economy as a whole.

67 comments

ArcadeFire said...

first??

Rhaomi said...

FiveThirtyEight: After Dark is not nearly as titillating as I was lead to believe...

Go said...

Did you see Barney Frank on Rachel Maddow tonight (I mean, not literally "on", but on her show)? He made a brilliant point: you can't promise these guys exorbitant bonuses when they do well but not punish them when they fail. Then they make big risks because the bad consequences don't affect them. They're gambling everything for their company--including all of the employees and other corporations and aspects of the economy that depend thereon--but nothing for themselves. That's the primary reason why this system needs to be eradicated.

Russell said...

An alternative interpretation is that the stock market believes that A)The AIG executives have gotten away with getting huge bonuses and B) businesses who richly (in fact, disproportionately) reward their top executives do better business.

Hu Chi said...

Fourth! (Fifth? Sixth?)

Rhaomi

You must not have made it to the VIP lounge. Hubba, hubba!

Go

Exactly. Mandatory public service and a life of poverty would make for a nice non-performance clause.

chronosynclastic infundibulum said...

aig haiku

taking public cash
roll it up into a ball
in your Ass It Goes

sorry

Mike said...

Given how tiny the bonuses are compared to the problems, I would be inclined to assume that the rise in stock prices are not directly related to any prediction that the bonuses won't be paid.

Maybe they think the worst is over. Maybe it took an extra hour for the full effects of Bernake's comments to seep through. Maybe they think that the distraction of bonuses in the news cycle will keep other, more troubling news from catching fire, thus having a short-term positive effect on the market.

I'm no economist, but this correlation between bonuses in the news and the rise in those stocks doesn't look like causation to me.

Jenny said...



BUY!!!

BUY!!!


BUY!!!


~ Jim Cramer

Jenny said...

Nate,

You're readers would dearly appreciate and trust ur stock recommendations.

Really.

Hu Chi said...

Mike

Maybe the willingness of Obama et al to talk about bonuses at all indicates that they aren't actively contemplating anything more dire that clawing back the bonuses or disciplining executives. That in itself would sound encouraging to investors.

An analogy would be if your doctor called you into his/her office and started off talking about your blood sugar levels. You'd be pretty relieved if you'd thought you might have a terminal illness, even before hearing the rest of the report.

Go

I just got what you didn't mean in your first sentence, and I'm trying not to visualize it. Did you catch the New Yorker profile of Barney Frank where he was in the audience when a speaker said that GLBT sounded like a sandwich? Frank spoke up and said "Sometimes it is!" Tee hee.

Mike in Maryland said...

Mike said...
blah, blah, blah, blah

and then
I'm no economist

No shit Sherlock. We could tell that you're no economist from all the blather you wrote before you admitted you're no economist.

I'm no economist, either, but at least I try to have some understanding of economic matters. To me, it appears that not only are you no economist, but you don't even try to understand simple economic principles, basic law principles, and you have absolutely no common sense.

Gabriel said...

I don't think the Chipper Jones analogy is apt. To follow your baseball analogy, it's more like they are the general managers/managers of the team. Like you said, too much credit when things are good; too much blame when things are bad. That's the nature of things.
Because these managers are heaped with praise when the company is succeeding, they should take the blame when things are so catastrophically bad. Bill Bavasi got canned in Seattle. Ditto for Jim Bowden in DC. Heck, even people who are doing a relatively good job take the fall when the larger organization is failing. See Willie Randolph/ Mo Cheeks with the Sixers. To say that these executives are like Chipper Jones is not quite right. Chipper's analog would be the actual analysts/mid-level managers in AIG.

Paul said...

Mike in Maryland, I like how you don't offer up your points to counter his.

Interesting article.

RufusRules said...

I probably have my tinfoil hat on a bit tight tonight, but there seems to be a lot more skulduggery going on in the AIG situation than is apparent. Between your and Sean's posts, everything else I've read today about it, and Goolsbee on Matthews tonight essentially saying "this is a travesty but I have no idea what we can do about it legally," it sure looks like AIG holds the trump card and all this media hubbub is just PR CYA by the Obama administration. But hey, if Geithner is somehow able to rescind those bonuses I'll be happy to suspend my paranoia.

Also, saw the LA Times article. New York? Really? Right. ON.

Hu Chi said...

M in M

I'm not convinced anybody's an economist in any scientific sense. I mean I know there are lots of quantifiable economic phenomena out there, but if you can get two Ph.D economists in a room and they fundamentally disagree about what's going on, then it's not exactly physics.

My idea of an economist is something like a priest who's good with numbers instead of Latin.

The other Mike's scenario wasn't very compelling to me, either, but hey, nobody's human. Here's hoping you thought my analysis was pure genius...

I will say that when it comes to economists, I absolutely loved listening to J.K. Galbraith talk. Robert Reich makes for good listening, too, but compared to Galbraith he comes up short. (Compared to Alan Greenspan, though, Reich is a f***ing giant.)

Nate

Think about what Jenny said. Wouldn't it be cool if your loyal fans could be the first to get in on some surefire stock tip that would give us the jump on all the fascist pigs out there who think you're a commie faggot Obamaton? YES!

baldheadeddork said...

Nate -

I'm sorry to see you've endorsed Megan McArdle's attempt at reason in justifying the AIG bonuses.

There's no way to say this without sounding snarky, so know that I do hold your work in great esteem. That said, on the rest of Planet Earth not inhabited by AIG or, apparently, The Atlantic Monthly, if a company loses ninety-nine billion dollars in a single year, no one gets a fucking bonus.

If your division is wholly responsible for those losses, as AIGIP is, your bonus is every day in the rest of your life that you get to earn a living without saying "Do you want fries with that?" On the rest of Earth, a failure 1/10th this size destroys the career of everyone even casually connected to it.

Which is why it's infuriating to hear these people defended as being so essential to the survival of the company that they have to be paid retention bonuses. Are we really supposed to believe that turning the global financial markets into a smoking crater looks that good on a resume? Has the financial industry lost its collective mind so badly that it would snap up someone who walked out of the ruin of AIG, Citi or Merrill because they didn't get their damned bonus?

Let 'em find out. If there is a Chipper Jones on the roster at AIG, he can prove his stuff somewhere else. Shoveling bonus money at AIG is like handing out World Series bonus money to the Texas Rangers because there might be a Chipper Jones on their roster that no one can see.

D said...

Its funny when a big company wants to relocate its factory, or slash wages and conditions for economic reasons, there are always ways of getting out of contracts.

AIG is now essentially bankrupt. It can't afford to pay bonuses. End of story. It only has the cash to do so because it believes it can thumb its nose at its single biggest shareholder, the government.

Mike in Maryland said...

Tonight on Keith, Robert Reich commented that one way to force AIG to either find a way to get the bonuses back, or to punish them for giving out the bonuses:

Before giving them another dime of bailout money is to have them reimburse to the government the total amount of the bonuses, or to divest the financial arm to which most of the bonuses went to (the exotic securities branch in London). Basically he said we should encourage them to sell it, or even "Give it away to Fox News. Give it away to North Korea."

Maybe we could force AIG to spin it off, split it up, and give half to each - get rid of at least three problems in one move! Sounds good to me!!!

Hu Chi said...

M in M

Reich is indeed one cool guy. I'm sorry Obama didn't appoint him to his cabinet. He wouldn't have helped the basketball team though.

BTW, for those who think I may be picking on the altitudinally challenged, one of Reich's books is entitled "I'll Be Short."

El Cid said...

Overall, I performed very well this past year, yet since our company has suffered I haven't been able to get commissions or bonuses promised.

I don't like it, but the company has been able to survive and (mostly) allowed people to keep their jobs and pay their bills.

So, I understand that individual performance is not correlated with company performance.

Yet if my company were getting public money to survive (we aren't, and won't), the first thing I'd assume is that we'd all just be getting basic salary at best.

Pip said...

Suckers! AIG will be the first one Nationalized. (I know they will do as many as they feel they need to all at once to avoid speculation of who's next.) But AIG will be first in that first batch.

jonathan said...

No, I don't think AIG's move of less than half a dollar really can be traced to any one action.

On the other hand, compensation to top executives at the level it's been at for the last ten+ years definitely hurts shareholder value. With extremely rare exceptions (if it were necessary to retain Steve Jobs maybe), I don't believe there's any question about that.

They make it because they can get away with it. Shareholders are too diverse to effectively fight back. End of story.

Wayward Son said...

Well, if AIG can't find a way to avoid paying the bonuses.. and I'm sure they tried reeeeaaaalllll haaaarrddddd.. it is up to Congress to do so.

A representative has introduced a bill to provide for a 60% tax rate on bonuses over $10K given in 2009 by companies that are supermajority controlled by the U.S. government. (Currently, that means AIG.) The other 40% would be taxed at various other rates and levels, and in the end they would keep nothing.

NYC Economist said...

I work at a hedge fund, and I can give the reason that was circulating in the investment community yesterday for the move in AIG, C, FNM, FRE etc.

When someone wants to short a stock, they need to go out and borrow it from someone who owns it already. The person who lends it out is paid interest for lending out the stock, so it is an easy way to boost your returns if you own a large stock portfolio. Most big brokerages do this automatically with the stocks they hold. There was a rumor going around yesterday that the government, which owns huge stakes in AIG and a few other firms, would stop lending out shares. If true, this would squeeze the shorts out of these stocks. This rumor, though it hasn't been confirmed, was the main reason people were getting out of short positions in these stocks yesterday and producing a huge move higher.

Dave said...

It would be far more profitable to spend this time crafting a solid bill for dealing with TARP bailout money and executive bonuses from here on out.

To have a bill so carefully targeted risks serious bill of attainder issues. If the bill, as presented so far, gets overturned, a whole lot of time and effort has been wasted and if the bill isn't overturned, then the bill of attainder clause is seriously weakened, which is something that could prove very scary at some point.

Simply exercising some leverage over AIG (both as equity owner and provider of possible future bailouts) to break the contracts and dealing with those consequences strikes me as a far better alternative. The people would have a good shot at getting their bonuses in civil court, but there, we can make it expensive enough to make it unprofitable for them, without giving government a pretty scary tool. We abhorred Bush's attempt pulverizing our systems of checks and balances, let's not do the same thing.

R-Boy said...

Okay Nate. Now you're trying to attach meaning to a daily moving in the stock market after repeatedly attacking the Republican noise machine for doing the same thing with the Dow Jones.

Here's a hint from a real-life economist. Day to day movements are meaningless. Watch the trend.

Dave said...

It's a dead cat

nova_middle_man said...

Let me just echo R-Boy

Pointless entry you can do better Nate

He basically admitted it was pointless here

"the fact that the stocks of the companies which are most likely to be the targets of those bailouts all performed well today may be telling. Or it may not be"

The main point appears to be then wanting to bash executive compensation

"But it is far from clear that extremely high levels of executive compensation ultimately benefit the shareholders of the companies that those executives manage, let alone the economy as a whole."

Cmon Nate this is supply and demand use your head. In the good times these bonuses were a fraction of the total profit of these organizations. Stocks and profits were booming. Remember this is all a bubble a big bubble but its still a bubble. A bubble causes by greed and irresponsibiltiy.

Or another way of looking at it is inteeligent gaming of the system and risk taking. That entrenuperial spirit is the foundation of this economy and ountry. Capping profit potential would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

@Gabriel you are wrong bud

Most of these executives are the sports players. They have contracts and then they are paid accordingly. The CEO of AIG should be fired. Just like many CEOs of failed companies have been fired. Going back to the sports players in the good times the sports players/most employees bring in more than enough business to benefit the Manager/CEO several times over.

Reagan Revolution said...

How about Obama billing our wounded war veterans for their own medical care?

http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/main/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/523/Obama-to-bill-combat-wounded-for-medical-care.aspx

Gitmo detainees aren't even billed for their own medical care. Pretty incredible isn't it?

SarahLawrenceScott said...

There seems to be a certain laziness in analyzing this story, even by people who are usually the antithesis of journalistic laziness, like Nate.

One meme is: "AIG executives used our bailout money to pay themselves big bonuses."

Another meme is: "Some of the people who got these bonuses may have been associated with the parts of AIG that did very well, and shouldn't be punished."

Both memes appear implicitly in Nate's post.

But as I understand it, the bonuses were paid to employees in the financial products unit, the very unit that blew up.

So to use the baseball analogy, it's like the GM signed a bunch of unproven relief pitchers for exorbitant amounts of money. Maybe they were escaped from North Korea or something, so that no one was quite sure how well they could play. It turns out that they suck, and should be cut. But they had guaranteed contracts.

Does the GM deserve blame? Absolutely. Was it greed, or stupidity? For him, stupidity. Should the team try to find a way to get money back from the pitchers? Yes, if they can.

Ken said...

D wrote: "Its funny when a big company wants to relocate its factory, or slash wages and conditions for economic reasons, there are always ways of getting out of contracts."

If the contract involves a pension, they might even get members of Congress helping them. I find it odd how many people don't understand that pensions are contracts for deferred compensation.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

In the event the U.S. isn't able to strong arm AIG out of these bonuses....

AIG is currently under investigation by both the FBI and the SFO . If in fact AIG is found guilty, the U.S. could sue them for the bonus amounts plus other penalties I would assume.

Here's the problem I would with AIG at this point. What are we, $160 or so billion into them now? If we were to take over AIG, break all contracts, and sell off it's assets, would we get anywhere near $160 billion? I'm going to guess no. The only way we are getting our cash back now is if someone keeps that company running to pay us back.

I'm guessing the only way for us to get ourselves out of this is to prop them up until they become profitable and allow them to pay us back while putting in place regulations so they can't put themselves at such high risk again.

The problem this administration finds its self in now is they are trying to work with AIG but those assholes over in England are really making things difficult when news of the bonuses breaks the streets. Those wankers in England don't give a damn because they probably feel the damn Yankees and their laziness destroyed their investments so this is there little payback to us and they probably feel they didn't do anything wrong. They were just a victim of our gluttony in their eyes.

Anyways, everyone's pointing fingers at everyone right now when all of us should be pointing at ourselves. It's getting stupid right now.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

NYC Economist said...

.../snip There was a rumor going around yesterday that the government, which owns huge stakes in AIG and a few other firms, would stop lending out shares. If true, this would squeeze the shorts out of these stocks. This rumor, though it hasn't been confirmed, was the main reason people were getting out of short positions in these stocks yesterday and producing a huge move higher."

I assumed it was inside information as I'm sure many of the huge moves in company stocks are.

This is Wall Streets game at this point, we're just in it for the ride.

JM said...

There sure IS SOMETHING we can do LEGALLY to prevent the bonuses being paid....

We force the company into chapter 11 reorganization. It has more liabilities than assets, therefore is a candidate for chapter 11 bankruptcy/reorganization, and under chapter 11 it breaks any legal need to pay the bonuses before paying back the real creditors, and the US public.

It would also mean that large banks and overseas investment funds who were expecting to collect on AIG insurance polices would have to settle for only a percentage of the total.

This would be healthy, because right now if a mortgage backed fund has lost 20% of it's value AIG is paying out 100% on the insurance policy, but if the insurance only paid out 40% the speculative investment fund would have to take a bit of a hit too, and it would then have an incentive to go back and re-negotiate with the mortgage holders, to make the contracts they speculated in less likely to default.

Ken said...

Dave wrote: "To have a bill so carefully targeted risks serious bill of attainder issues."

I assume this is referring to the bill that Wayward Son was describing above. I agree in principle; however, for many years companies have not complained when the Congress crafts a bill that grants a special tax exemption to any company that (say) was incorporated in Fayette County, Ohio on August 3, 1973. Yes, technically any company that meets the requirement can claim the tax exemption, but in practice it is exactly one. So choose your favorite cliche: hoist by one's own petard, live by the sword die by the sword, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

chimmy13 said...

My read is that the run up in price wasn't related to the bonuses, but was instead related to the fact that AIG named its counterparties yesterday. Upon seeing the list some investors likely came to the conclusion that the government really can't afford to let AIG fail, and thus decided to jump in while the share price was low.

Wayward Son said...

In the case of the bill listed, there is no indication that it is intended to expire. Therefore, AIG is simply the first company to encounter the law.. not the only one to ever be affected by it. Any additional companies that become insolvent to the degree that they are supermajority-controlled by the government will also be affected by this tax rate on bonuses.

The first person to ever look at a paycheck and see a tax withholding amount may have felt that they were being treated unconstitutionally, also.. welcome to the club, AIG.

Dave said...

I assume this is referring to the bill that Wayward Son was describing above. I agree in principle; however, for many years companies have not complained when the Congress crafts a bill that grants a special tax exemption to any company that (say) was incorporated in Fayette County, Ohio on August 3, 1973. Yes, technically any company that meets the requirement can claim the tax exemption, but in practice it is exactly one. So choose your favorite cliche: hoist by one's own petard, live by the sword die by the sword, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Except that has nothing to do with the bill of attainder clause, which is intended to prevent the legislator from enacting bills that are designed as punishment, not policy. I'm not talking about an Equal Protection Clause issue.

When you have countless pols saying it's for AIG and one of the proposals being the "AIG Taxpayer Protection Act," it's hard to argue on its face that it's not intended to be punitive. And this is coming from someone who would love to extract more than a pound of flesh from AIG at the moment.

Dave said...

n the case of the bill listed, there is no indication that it is intended to expire. Therefore, AIG is simply the first company to encounter the law.. not the only one to ever be affected by it. Any additional companies that become insolvent to the degree that they are supermajority-controlled by the government will also be affected by this tax rate on bonuses.

That's a very weak argument given the on-record communication being given about the purpose of this bill. You can't seek to craft legislation to punish a single individual or company because some company "later on" may possibly be subject to it.

Do we *really* want a tool like this in the hands of a future Republican administration, carefully crafting laws that punish the ACLU or the NAACP, because we're rightfully mad that AIG horribly misused an amount that comes to less than 1% of the bailout dough given?

Crossing out bits of the Constitution because of anger is what Bush did. Why should we fall over ourselves to emulate the behavior of the worst president of our lifetimes?

Wayward Son said...

Well, you've gone from 'risks serious bill of attainder issues' to 'Crossing out bits of the Constitution' in only a few postings. Your decisions on constitutionality arrive much faster than that old group of robe-wearing turtles..

If the bill is unconstitutional, the courts will so rule. If it is constitutional, it is certainly a valid attempt at reining in the greedy failures threatening our current economic future, and serves the common good.

I am certain the issue will end up in the courts, but see no reason for Congress to shrink away from providing the court system a chance to rule on it.

It's an entirely separate issue.. but are you serious about refraining from an act just because some future Republican might use your actions as justification to do worse? If the Bush regime taught us anything, it's that they will do what they want.. with or without justification.

Saint Dude said...

OFF TOPIC -

The latest Gallup poll is an interesting read.

www.gallup.com/poll/116845/Obama-Approval-Equal-Better-Bush-Clinton.aspx

For all the doom and gloom out there, Obama has higher approval numbers than either Clinton or Bush at this point into their first term.

The most interesting point in the poll is the part that breaks the approval numbers down by party. Obama's support among democrats has actually gone up by 3 points since inaugeration (88% to 91%). At the same time his support among independents has gone down 3 points (62% to 59%).

Virtually all of his decreasing approval numbers (as well as increasing disapproval numbers) are due to the solidification of republicans into the party of opposition. Obama's support among republicans has gone down from 41% at inauguration to 26% now.

One could view the 26% of republican support as bad news - FOR REPUBLICANS. With nearly every republican politician acting the loud mouthed crazy obstructionist, they may be in danger of continued declines in their base of support.

nova_middle_man said...

"At the same time his support among independents has gone down 3 points (62% to 59%)."

That is the key number in modern politics.

I am watching that and the budget debate closely along with many moderate senators from both parties.

madberg said...

These guys getting bonuses should just be fired. We don't need them to unwind the messes - they're too emotionally attached to them. And for those worried that they'll take advantage from the other side, first, great, if they can get this garbage off the AIG balance sheet, more power to them. But, second, let the SEC bar them from the entire industry.

I think yanking their bonuses and barring them from the industry is the best way to send the message to these cowboys that this doesn't pay. Take away their means to earn, and others should be suitably warned.

smk22 said...

Nate's argument was that investors like AIG more because they believe that the government will find a way to force AIG to break contractual obligations to pay bonuses, which is something investors expect to be good for AIG's business.

However, isn't the exact opposite at least as plausible, if not more so?

Investors believe the government WON'T be able to force the elimination of bonuses, and investors like such limits on the degree to which the government can intervene in business operations of those receiving bailouts.

AOLBites said...

It's just short covering because of the rumor that the gov will demand stock certificates for all its stock, when you have the certificates the stock can't be lent to shorts, thus, the squeeze.

JC said...

How can they call it a 'bonus' if it's contractually obligated? That sounds like 'salary' to me...

Is there some tax-related reason why they'd call it one thing and not another?

JB said...

http://innovation.cq.com/liveonline/51/landing

Is Nate going there?

mclever said...

JC - not a tax reason...

Mostly, it's so they can hide the actual compensation from shareholders.

"Oh, his salary is only $100K." But his bonuses are $2.5M...

The laws have changed to make it somewhat more difficult to hide the total compensation like that, but it's part of the reason they split out bonuses and salary. The other part, is so that they CAN refuse to pay those bonuses! Salaries have greater legal protection than bonuses.

Contractual obligation is total BS.

Greg F said...

@ Reagan Revolution

I know you posted this like 20 posts back and that you're a troll, but I just have to say it. How exactly would you like the Gitmo detainees pay for their medical treatment? Besides, I'm pretty sure it is illegal (or at least unethical) to torture someone and then make them pay you to fix them. And even when they receive medical help for conditions unrelated to their stay in Gitmo, you're basically asking the prisoners to pay to stay prisoners. Why not ask death row inmates to raise the million dollars it takes to execute them?

matador said...

I read from Sir Nate here and Sir Sean below.
Hope Obama can succeeds in this attempt.
All in all...He can...

btw a little O.T.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shannyn-moore/karl-rove-sarah-palin-tim_b_175557.html

...Amazingly...scaring.
bye.

:)

Drowzee said...

In regards to the claim:
"How about Obama billing our wounded war veterans for their own medical care? [...]

Gitmo detainees aren't even billed for their own medical care. Pretty incredible isn't it?"

No, not really. You'll note that this is not about injuries sustained DURING war.

It's about injuries sustained as civilians long after leaving the military, saying "If you can afford private insurance and medical care and get hurt doing something we didn't sponsor, why should we pay for you and not everyone else?"


Unless "Reagan Revolution" is advocating universal health care, it seems quite fair to ask people to pay for their own medical expenses when they can.

But, surprise, surprise, Drudge etc. have spun that so hard it became "People fighting in Iraq combat will have to pay if they get hurt fighting the good fight!", totally ignoring the facts of the applicability of government vs. private health care and current policies on the matter.

Wayward Son said...

Looks like I misrepresented the situation regarding legislation aimed at clawing back the AIG bonuses.

Instead of the single bill I mentioned, there are actually 5 currently sponsored bills in the House that use various methods of reverting the bonus money back to the people who paid for it..

Through teary eyes, I ask.. "Won't someone please think of the Constitution?"

polls_apart said...

Barney Frank mentioned last night that the first bailout of AIG came directly from the Federal Reserve, and came with no conditions attached. Ditto any bailout money from the the first $350 billion of the $700 billion Congressionally-approved bailout. The funds in the second half of the Congressionally-approved bsilout do have conditions attached. Thus, any request AIG makes for subsequent funding may get the slow-boat-to-China treatment by the US Government. This could be incentive for a reversal of these bonus payments by AIG.

The whole episode also demands that Pres. Obama should start rolling out the re-regulation of the financial sector in short order. The reaction to the AIG bonuses gives the president an opening for expedited action on regulating the banks, insurance companies and Wall Street.

matador said...

Bonus Quote of the Day
"Follow the Japanese model... resign, or go commit suicide."

-- Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA), quoted by the Washington Post, on AIG executives who took bonuses despite a massive government bailout.

An aide later explained the senator does not actually want executives to kill themselves.

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/03/17/bonus_quote_of_the_day.html

just...wow.
A repubblican saying this...is this way Petey& co. are disappeared today ????
...who knows...

matador said...

way = why

sorry guys...
:P

spencer said...

on the rest of Planet Earth not inhabited by AIG or, apparently, The Atlantic Monthly, if a company loses ninety-nine billion dollars in a single year, no one gets a fucking bonus

Good point - I've never worked for a company where bonuses were given in unprofitable quarters / years.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

To celebrate St. Patrick's day I present to you all the song written by the town where Obama's bloodlines originate from in Ireland.

Enjoy.

David said...

The Two Bums

The bum on the rods is hunted down as an enemy of mankind
The other is driven around to his club, is feted, wined and dined

And they who curse the bum on the rods as the essence of all that's bad
Will greet the other with a willing smile and extend a hand so glad

The bum on the rods is a social flea who gets an occasional bite
The bum on the plush is a social leech, bloodsucking day and night

The bum on the rods is a load so light that his weight we scarcely feel
But it takes the labor of dozens of folks to furnish the other a meal

As long as we sanction the bum on the plush the other will always be there
But rid ourselves of the bum on the plush and the other will disappear

Then make an intelligent organized kick get rid of the weights that crush
Don't worry about the bum on the rods get rid of the bum on the plush

Words by Frying Pan Jack,

dedicated to AIG

Davy said...

I feel it should be pointed out that $165 million is to $170 Billion as 16.5 cents is to $170 dollars.

That having been said. Tar and feather those f&@#$*s and run 'em out of town on a rail. It's the principle that matters.

Juris said...

Tar and feather who? The Brits who received many of those bonuses, some of whom no longer work for AIG?

Da5id said...

Stocks go up and down. No reason at all many times. Crowd behavior that can't be accurately predicted. If it could, stock markets couldn't function.

Charles said...

I am one of those people that just bought AIG and is going buy CITI, once people lock in some gains of course it is clear, (to me at least) now that if nationalization were to happen, it would have happened already so where is the risk if they can;t go bankrupt they can only go up in the long term

Mike in Maryland said...

Juris said...
Tar and feather who? The Brits who received many of those bonuses, some of whom no longer work for AIG?

Agreed.

From CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/17/politics/100days/economy/main4871826.shtml):

Troubled insurance giant American International Group paid bonuses of $1 million or more to 73 employees, including 11 who no longer work for the company, New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo said Tuesday. [emphasis added]

HedgeHog said...

It has been going up for technical reasons causing a short squeeze. Rumors have come out that the government is going to ask for delivery of its stock certificates, they won't be held by any outside custodian. This would prevent them from being borrowed by short-sellers. Since that is 80% of the outstanding it's going to be next to impossible for most shorts to hold onto their short position. So there has been massive covering.

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Gyrate said...

My thoughts, when I hear stories like AIG bonuses and Sir Fred Goodwin's pension from RBS, are less about trying to get back the money foolishly promised to these people but rather about identifying and preventing the next incident of this kind.

Who else in the financial world is sitting on these kinds of earn-piles-of-money-even-if-you-fail contracts? How can we change these before they have to pay out? What can we do to get the shareholders to rise up, engage and say "No more"?

Surely there is no benefit to a business to offer inducements that have no clawback provision in the case of failure?

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