I've never been particularly sanguine about the prospects for EFCA's passage. That Arlen Specter has come out against it does not surprise me, given that he seems to face a greater threat in the Republican primary than in the 2010 general election. If Blanche Lincoln or Mark Pryor of Arkansas, where Walmart is headquartered and where unionization rates are low, are waffling on the bill, that's nothing if not predictable. And if Ben Nelson of Nebraska, who has generally been the most conservative Democrat in the Senate, opposes the measure, that would pretty much be par for the course.
But Senator Dianne Feinstein of California, who has declined to co-sponsor EFCA and may not support it at all? This is much harder to explain. Feinstein is not nearly as liberal as the lay public assumes. Nevertheless, she has an 87 percent lifetime score (.pdf) from the AFL-CIO, and hails from progressive California, which has one of the highest unionization rates in the country. This is not the profile of someone whom you'd think might vote against the bill that labor considers its most important priority in decades. So, what gives?
Here's my theory. California is holding a gubernatorial race of 2010, in which Feinstein is a prospective candidate. In fact, according to the Field Poll (.pdf), Feinstein is probably the favorite in the Democratic primary if she chooses to enter.
But as is always the case in California, the field is going to be very crowded. Lieutenant Governor John Garamendi has already entered, and a number of higher-profile candidates may be on their way, including Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villariagosa, San Francisco Mayer Gavin Newsom, and Attorney General (and former Governor) Jerry Brown.
Villariagoa, Newsom, and Brown are all likely to get plenty of support from unions. Feinstein, even before this vote on EFCA, probably was not going to. So there's not that much for her to lose by pissing off labor: even if they're angry with her, that leaves open the question of which of the several alternatives they'd urge their constituents to vote for instead. Odds are that the various unions will split their endorsements. Protest votes don't work very well in multi-candidate races.
And what is there for Feinstein to gain by this? Well, money. Winning a race in a state as large and diverse as California is exceptionally expensive. Moreover, campaign finance laws are much laxer in California. Individuals and PACs can contribute up to $24,100 (.pdf) in California in both the primary and the general election, much higher than the $2,300 federal limit. By hedging her bets on EFCA, Feinstein stands to make herself more attractive to corporate contributors. She might also differentiate herself as the moderate candidate in a field of liberals, which is not a bad strategy since California's primaries are open to independent and Republican voters.
So the upshot of her lukewarmness on EFCA is this, I think: Dianne Feinstein is running for governor.
3.28.2009
Why Is Dianne Feinstein Stiffing Labor?
by Nate Silver @ 3:54 PM...see also california, efca, governor, labor
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144 comments
You're so right as usual Nate. First?
And second!
woohoo I rule!
It would almost be worth suffering through the vile Feinstein as governor to get her the hell of of the senate. I hate her in a way that makes me feel warm and fuzzy about droopy Joe Lieberman.
Oh God! If she becomes governor she gets to pick her own replacement!
aaaaaaaahhhh!!!
I think you are being unfair in your title - she is supporting labor very strongly on many issues. She is, in fact, doing exactly want labor wants and trying to broker a deal with Leahy on Patent Reform.
Democratic primaries are not open to Republicans. They are only open to Democrats and independents. Republicans do not allow independents to participate in their primary.
Another note- Gavin Newsom, another frontrunner, has announced (or at least told his campaign staff) that he will drop out of the gubernatorial race if she were to enter.
And in terms of the youth vote, people just don't trust Feinstein like they do Villaraigosa (and that's saying something). The only exposure they've had to her is a slight reference to her in "Milk."
"I've never been particularly sanguine about the prospects for card check's passage."
Nate, it's the Employee Free Choice Act or EFCA. Only those opposed to its passage call it "card check." You're not helping with the framing.
@Nate: Villariagoa???
Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa
Nate - coming from a libertarian (me) maybe Feinstein merely opposes a bill that removes secret ballot as a voting measure? I don't doubt that your analysis is correct, politicians rarely have completely altruistic reasons for taking a position, but it should be important to note that this bill is quite controversial. We are not voting on whether or not to give baby's hugs here.
CORRECTION NOTICE: See Hoa-Long Tam's post. In California, only voters who "Decline to State a Political Party" are free to vote across various party primaries. If you are registered in a party, you may only vote in that party's primary.
California really has a masochistic streak, huh? Feinstein is a festering pile of human garbage.
Why would she be against card check?
Let's see.
You get approached to sign up to establish a union and, for whatever reason, you don't want one. Perhaps, you don't trust the prospective leadership, or whatever.
You decline.
So Big Louie takes you out back, puts your testicles in a vise and beats you within an inch of your life.
Then, he asks if you would care to reconsider.
....
There is a reason the privacy of the ballot is sacred.
Perhaps she is against it because it is WRONG, un-American, and un-democratic (small d).
(Note: Lifetime Liberal Democrat)
I haven't paid much attention to her since I don't live in California, but people who are truly liberal don't seem to like her very much.
Listening to Jello Biafra recount his run for mayor against her is amusing.
maybe Feinstein merely opposes a bill that removes secret ballot as a voting measure?
If you believe that you haven't read anything about it except by the freeptards,.
EFCA is not perfect, but it doesn't remove secret ballot.
Just amazing. EFCA does not remove secret ballot, what it does is take the power of intimidation out of the employers hands.
If this passes, immoral companies like Walmart are going to have to accept unionization or close thousands of stores.
I am not sure which option is better for the US.
I honestly don't know which I prefer. Would I rather lose my job for supporting a union, or get intimidated into voting for a union I don't support?
I feel like the first is far more likely than the second. Besides, being roughed up is far easier to prove to a court of law as opposed to the real reasons for being fired. I don't see why we can't just add the secret ballot and not worry about it either way.
Gotta say I'm wary of giving the unions too much power in this economy. One of the goals of unions is to pare turnover rates WAY down, and in a sink-or-swim economy, dulling American companies' competitive edge by unconditionally protecting union workers from employer decisions is basically suicide, particularly in the global economy...
The caveat to this post is that I don't know all that much about EFCA or what it does, since all of the information on it appears to be skewed sharply in one direction or another and I can't seem to locate an objective source that doesn't present it in Gobbledegook.
Regardless - good sleuthing, Nate.
This is a call to everyone to please step outside the right vs. left paradigm. While there are important issues worth debating within this paradigm, all of them will be moot if we do not focus on a much greater issue outside this paradigm. Thomas Jefferson warned of wealth concentrating to such an extent that it threatened the state. Nowadays the media has taught us all very well to ridicule anyone who talks of central banks usurping the power of government. Well now I suppose the media will have to laugh at themselves, as many outlets from Newsweek to the Financial Times of London are openly discussing the creation of a "bank of the world" that will control economic policies of every nation. I invite you to watch this video, which details how this is currently taking place. While it focuses on our current officials' cooperation with these plans, it steps out of the typical political paradigm by highlighting the cooperation of both parties. Please do not look to politicians to protect us. Only we can protect us. And our first step must be to reach out to police and military. Without their cooperation, the global elite won't have the muscle to exercise their will of oppression. Please share this oath-keepers blog with them.
feinstein is next to worthless.
okay, she is worse than wothless
and isnt she getting kind of toothy?
the real question is will arnie retire to making more idiotically unispired movies?
Good ridance. And for you curious commentors, EFCA does not remove secret ballots, rather gives more options for the workers to choose from on how to organize.
And if you don't like that, you can tell scary stories about guys grabbing your nuts and squeezing because you did not want to join a union.
Matt said...
Nate - coming from a libertarian (me) maybe Feinstein merely opposes a bill that removes secret ballot as a voting measure?
Current law - get 30% signing a card, and an election can be called. Unions currently wait until they get 50-60% before turning in the cards to call an election. Then there is a waiting time until an election can be scheduled and an election can happen - time that management uses for 'one-on-one' management/employee 'discussions' about the future of the company (in other words, strong-arming of the employees to vote 'No' on unionization, otherwise the company will 'unfortunately have to lay off many workers (hint, hint - it will be those who supported unionization).
Proposed - The current scenario stays in place, but also adds that if 50% + 1 or more of the employees sign the card, the cards are turned into the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) to certify the union as the bargaining representative without directing an election. Employees, however, may still request a secret ballot election if 30% of employees petition for one. The EFCA would allow the employees — rather than the employer — to decide whether to hold a secret-ballot election.
I would suggest that you do a bit of research before posting next time.
Well, maybe. But, not to be ageist or anything, I have trouble seeing a 77 year-old battling through contested primary and general election races to take office in a state with a tanked economy and all kinds of systemic challenges--both in terms of Feinstein wanting to do all that, and the electorate supporting her. Perhaps she just doesn't like the legislation as it's currently written, and/or wants to broker the likely compromise if/when it starts to take shape.
Nate,
I am a big fan of your site. I consider it among the most balanced and intelligent liberal web sites. However, having participated in unionization efforts from both sides, I believe that EFCA will result in many coworkers being intimidated into signing cards and certifying an election.
If there is concern about some employers intimidating coworkers into voting against a union, I would say that 1) employers currently have no knowledge about who votes for a union, and 2) let's increase penalties or consider other ways of discouraging intimidation by employers. The way forward is NOT to eliminate the secret ballot, which is one of if not the most effective means our society has for discouraging demagoguery and intimidation. Would those who support EFCA consider doing away with their own right to cast a secret ballot in a political election?
Rob
EFCA does not, not, NOT do away with the secret ballot. Seriously - it doesn't. It really gets tiresome to read folks constantly claiming that it does in this comments section and elsewhere on the intertubes.
If you oppose EFCA, fine, but if you oppose it because it eliminates the secret ballot then you are not doing your homework.
The theory about Feinstein put forward by Nate is extremely plausible. It's a big time opportunist move, which would be very much in keeping with Feinstein's character.
Another possibility is that she is not supporting EFCA in order to act like a jerk, which would also be very much in keeping with Feinstein's character.
I normally avoid ad hominem attacks against politicians, or anyone else for that matter, but I feel comfortable making an exception for Feinstein. While she often votes the "right way" (from my perspective) on important questions, overall she is still the opposite of good.
Mike in Maryland said...
Current law - get 30% signing a card, and an election can be called. Unions currently wait until they get 50-60% before turning in the cards to call an election. Then there is a waiting time until an election can be scheduled and an election can happen - time that management uses for 'one-on-one' management/employee 'discussions' about the future of the company (in other words, strong-arming of the employees to vote 'No' on unionization, otherwise the company will 'unfortunately have to lay off many workers (hint, hint - it will be those who supported unionization).
Proposed - The current scenario stays in place, but also adds that if 50% + 1 or more of the employees sign the card, the cards are turned into the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) to certify the union as the bargaining representative without directing an election. Employees, however, may still request a secret ballot election if 30% of employees petition for one. The EFCA would allow the employees — rather than the employer — to decide whether to hold a secret-ballot election.
I would suggest that you do a bit of research before posting next time.
I think the point in 'getting rid of the secret ballot' comes down to the fact that with these rules, the likelihood of a secret ballot seems to be essentially zero. If the union can get (hint, hint - strong arm them) 50% to sign, no secret ballot. If it can't get 50% to sign, how are they going to win a secret ballot, thus why call for one? Or why stop at 30%?
That is, even though the secret ballot verbiage still exists, in what scenario might it actually be used?
It seems like this law is just allowing much more direct strongarming by the union--with a secret ballot the employers could try to force people to do something, but with this rule, the unions can try to force AND observe someone doing something--in particular signing.
I think you are wrong about EFCA not taking away the secret ballot, Geoff (or perhaps Jim Hoffa does not understand EFCA?). Here is an LA Times story on a Teamsters rally for EFCA:
Hoffa Commends Sponsors of Employee Free Choice Act
By: PR Newswire: Teamsters President Blasts False Claims About Secret Ballots
WASHINGTON, March 10 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Teamsters General President Jim Hoffa today praised House and Senate sponsors of the Employee Free Choice Act.
The bill would give workers the choice of forming a union through majority sign-up or a National Labor Relations Board election. It would make it easier for workers to form a union.
"In these dire economic times, I can't think of a better way to restore stability to middle-class families than to strengthen unions," Hoffa said. "History shows that the economy does well when unions are strong."
Hoffa blasted the hostile, multimillion-dollar campaign to defeat the Employee Free Choice Act.
"This business about the Employee Free Choice Act taking away the secret ballot is nonsense spread by front groups for corporate fat cats who don't want to give up their $16,000 wastebaskets," Hoffa said.
"Since when is the secret ballot a basic tenet of democracy?" Hoffa said. "Town meetings in New England are as democratic as they come, and they don't use the secret ballot. Elections in the Soviet Union were by secret ballot, but those weren't democratic."
The bill would also strengthen penalties for violations against workers who are trying to organize or negotiate a first contract, and ensure all parties negotiate a first contract in good faith.
For 74 years, workers have formed unions either through majority sign-up or a NLRB election. However, employers can veto workers' decision to organize through majority sign-up and force them into a divisive NLRB election process. A recent study shows that a pro-union worker is illegally fired in a quarter of all organizing campaigns for NLRB election.
Please think about this folks. The secret ballot is protective of everyone precisely because no one has to come out publicly in favor of a secret ballot, which on its face would identify coworkers in favor of a secret ballot as not supporting the union, at least in its organizing effort. If we as liberals were governed by an autocratic and powerful conservative regime, and that regime proposed a card check process for bypassing the secret ballot process, would we feel protected by a provision that said "If 50% + 1 of the populace signs cards, then the (presumably liberal) minority can call for a secret ballot by stepping up and identifying themselves to the autocratic conservative regime."
I am not a big fan of slippery slope arguments, but this is an exception. As before, surely there are other ways to reduce employer intimidation without eliminating the secret ballot, a move which, if approved, could come back to haunt us. Is it not possible that our liberal brothers and sisters who oppose EFCA share this very concern?
Rob
The whole issue of unionization is monstrously confusing.
On the one hand, unions seem totally appropriate in industrial settings, and in large-scale multi-tiered businesses where management is more bureaucratic and less personal.
In smaller scale businesses more stringent government regulation seems a better answer than unionization. I'd rather have a small business owner angry at government regulation than turn a small business into a continuously hostile adversarial workplace.
Rob: EFCA does exactly what it says it does. EMPLOYEEs have the FREEdom to CHOOSE the method.
If they want to use secret ballot they´ll have it. Hoffa just points out that it´s not undemocratic to not have secret ballot if a majority has expressed their willingness to join already.
And unionpeople strongarming someone to join? Is this a joke? If there´s no union in place they´ll have nothing to use as a strongarming-tool. If there´s a union, there´s no need anymore.
tesaar said...
And unionpeople strongarming someone to join? Is this a joke? If there´s no union in place they´ll have nothing to use as a strongarming-tool. If there´s a union, there´s no need anymore.
I forgot, your side can do no wrong. Maybe strongarming was a bit strong, but coercion, intimidation, etc. do take place. Union reps talking with people for 30-60 minutes trying to get them to sign up with the union, unions picketing non-union restaurants, after said restaurant had a vote and decided to be non-union. And I'm sure there's a ton more that they can do in the background--psychological guilt trips perhaps among them? I just don't think that two wrongs makes a right--take away the employer's strong-arming, don't give some to the union.
Oh, and my question still stands (and I am willing to admit I'm wrong, if I am)...but I just don't see any reasonable scenario where a secret ballot will be called. Thus, while saying the EFCA gets rid of the secret ballot is not precise, in effect that's exactly what's happening. I'd be happy to hear from anyone with a scenario that makes sense for a secret ballot to be called.
Feinstein showed her true colors during her horrid "Arlen Specter" two-step on FISA. I wouldn't vote for her for sewer inspector.
I'd actually bet that Feinstein won’t run for Governor. First, she’s 75 years old and California is, simply put, fucked. Does she really have the motivation to take on the state's truckload of problems? Leave her cushy Senate job to herd cats in Sacramento? Plus she’s looking at a nasty primary battle and an even nastier race against Whitman or maybe Poizner, both of whom have more money than God and will be happy to spend it airing DiFi’s dirty laundry (of which she has plenty). She’s probably going to decide it’s not worth the trouble – but only after wringing as much publicity as she can out of it.
Shane: You´re completely missing the point. If there´s no need for secret ballot there´s no need for secret ballot. That´s the CHOICE of EMPLOYEEs. Currently it´s employers who call it which is ridiculous.
And my side? what would that be?
I don't understand why they cannot just pass a rule that says a petition of 1/3 of workers to hold a secret ballot is sufficient to force a secret ballot be held, and promptly.
The signatures on such a petition are likely to be pro-union, but it isn't actually a commitment on how you will vote, like signing a union card is.
Or, let the organizers (whether an existing union or private individual) pay to have return-postcard ballots mailed to employees by a federal election official; with names and addresses provided to the election official by the company. The employess can mark yea/nay on whether to hold a ballot, and return the postcard to the election official. If more than half vote yea, you have a union. 1/3 to 1/2, you have a secret ballot. Less than 1/3, well, take your losses and try again next year, buddy.
It's easy to see with all the disinformation and idiocy out there that people are confused about this bill. Lots of people actually think because of all the propaganda around that this bill actually eliminates the secret ballot.
NEWSFLASH: Until the Wagner act "card-check" was the official method in place in America. It was the law for years and worked fine. In fact it worked all too well for corporate America.
They imposed the requirement of dual-stage "elections" so that management could coerce workers into rejecting unions by intimidating and firing those who supported them.
Clearly this bill will never pass unless Obama makes it a priority and I don't see him doing that. He will make public comments in favor and then let Congress vote it down. Labor will be pissed at Democrats who didn't support it, not him.
Frankly, this bill is the ONLY thing I've seen yet that promises to give working people more power and wealth in America. It's a travesty that Obama won't come out and really twist some arms over this and get the Senate to pass it.
tesaar,
I am not missing the point, you're missing what I was asking/saying. Although I'll address what you were saying. With the coercion for and against organization, who is to say whether 'there's no need for secret ballot'? That's the point. I would argue for *always* having a secret ballot (and making sure no coercion takes place). I just don't think that you really can find out what people want if you allow the process to include both sides to intimidate. Card check just increases intimidation (though offsets the employer's ability by introducing the union's ability)
But my entry into this discussion was to ask *someone* who has said that this law doesn't remove the secret ballot to provide a reasonable example as to when such a ballot would occur. I have yet to see an answer, and until I do, it seems that card check does effectively eliminate the secret ballot.
Tony,
The argument against a petition is that when someone signs, it can be used as persuasion for others to sign. "See, so and so signed, so why don't you?"
With signing of cards, the employee who receives one isn't as easily persuaded by who signed one before, since there is no listing of who signed and who didn't sign to the point that the petition is handed to an employee to sign.
Signing individual cards (which is the process now used) [theoretically] makes the process much more anonymous as to who is supporting the union drive and who isn't.
Mike,
I see you're replying to Tony--could you reply to mine, if you can come up with an example.
Though in your reply to Tony, you could still persuade by saying X% signed up, or say 'do it for your fellow workers', or whatever else that can be used to pull on the psychological heartstrings of workers. Cards versus petition take care of one small way of persuasion/intimidation, but not nearly all. The secret ballot (if administered properly) would. So, I would be interested in hearing your scenario where a secret ballot under card check would actually occur.
Shane: Effectively? Sure, why would anyone use it when the outcome has already been decided in the open? However "eliminate" is not the correct term. Eliminate=not a legal option anymore. The correct term is making it optional. Effective elimination=/=elimination.
Shane,
Why don't you read the comments, and do some research on the current laws on unionization? Afraid that your Freeper talking points will be destroyed?
Repeating what I stated above:
"Current law - get 30% signing a card, and an election can be called. Unions currently wait until they get 50-60% before turning in the cards to call an election. Then there is a waiting time until an election can be scheduled and an election can happen - time that management uses for 'one-on-one' management/employee 'discussions' about the future of the company (in other words, strong-arming of the employees to vote 'No' on unionization, otherwise the company will 'unfortunately have to lay off many workers (hint, hint - it will be those who supported unionization).
Proposed - The current scenario stays in place, but also adds that if 50% + 1 or more of the employees sign the card, the cards are turned into the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) to certify the union as the bargaining representative without directing an election. Employees, however, may still request a secret ballot election if 30% of employees petition for one. The EFCA would allow the employees — rather than the employer — to decide whether to hold a secret-ballot election."
Question answered?
tesaar,
Please refer above to Mike in Maryland's post about coercion. It can and does take place. To what degree can be argued, but it does occur. Thus, one ought to be highly suspicious of a 'result' where coercion could occur when the answers were in the open. A secret ballot is a much more resilient way of obtaining the will of the majority.
And the correct term for what is happening is most definitely NOT optional. That's spin at its finest. Unless you mean it's an option that will NEVER happen, ok. I guess it's an option for the firm to give the workers two billion dollars each as well. Hey, they have the option to do that.
Anyway, I'm giving you the correct strategy for countering the people who say the act (effectively) eliminates the secret ballot--just describe a situation when it makes sense for a secret ballot under the new rules will be called. Pretty simple, no? Instead, you argue semantics.
Geoff Johnson:
"EFCA does not, not, NOT do away with the secret ballot. Seriously - it doesn't. It really gets tiresome to read folks constantly claiming that it does..."
That language seems to adequately identify in a short phrase the essential disagreement that some have with the changes outlined by Mike In Maryland above. And at least it isn't outright Newspeak like "Free Choice".
Yes, it would still be possible for a secret ballot to occur in the process of certifying a union, but the proposed changes are clearly directed at providing organizers with increased chances at a secret-ballot-free certification process, which in turn means incentives for standover tactics on the part of the union. And the exciting opportunity to organize 30% of employees against the union to get a chance to vote in a secret ballot seems less than completely satisfactory as a backstop.
You can proclaim that the EFCA does not technically do away with the secret ballot in all cases, but if you're going to honestly address the underlying concern rather than splitting semantic hairs, you'll have to talk about the situations where it effectively does.
Mike in Maryland wrote...
Shane,
Why don't you read the comments, and do some research on the current laws on unionization? Afraid that your Freeper talking points will be destroyed?
now I'm a Freeper? Doesn't one have to read FR to be a Freeper? Well, just keep throwing personal insults. And yes, I do read the comments here. I quoted your entire post explaining how the act would work, and asked a question about it.
Repeating what I stated above:
"Current law - get 30% signing a card, and an election can be called. Unions currently wait until they get 50-60% before turning in the cards to call an election. Then there is a waiting time until an election can be scheduled and an election can happen - time that management uses for 'one-on-one' management/employee 'discussions' about the future of the company (in other words, strong-arming of the employees to vote 'No' on unionization, otherwise the company will 'unfortunately have to lay off many workers (hint, hint - it will be those who supported unionization).
Proposed - The current scenario stays in place, but also adds that if 50% + 1 or more of the employees sign the card, the cards are turned into the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) to certify the union as the bargaining representative without directing an election. Employees, however, may still request a secret ballot election if 30% of employees petition for one. The EFCA would allow the employees — rather than the employer — to decide whether to hold a secret-ballot election."
Question answered?
Sadly, no. You've said what the law states. Under your assumptions about what happens in an election (anti-union votes are suppressed by employer intimidation), I just can't see any reason for the union to not try to get to the 50%+1 signatures, by hook or by crook. So either they get the 50%+1, and get a union, no secret ballot involved, or they don't, and they won't get 1/2 of the employees voting for the union, and so there's no reason to hold the vote. So effectively, the secret ballot is eliminated. Yes, according to the law it's still an option, but will never be used.
In summary, the law still allows for a secret ballot, but I just don't see a situation where the incentives would make the secret ballot (under the new law) the optimal strategy. I am just asking you if you can illustrate a situation in which it would.
Shane: Actually it´s quite simple to see it occur. Just make a petition asking if the employees would be willing to support a proposal to have a secret ballot vote about unionization. Signing such a petition would in no way tell your personal preference.
I'm just going to reiterate for your brainwashed FIXEDNews idiots and Freeper morons that the Employee Free Choice Act does NOT take away the secret ballot.
Does NOT take away the secret ballot.
It is what the name says: EMPLOYEE FREE CHOICE. Employees get to CHOOSE.
Oh yeah... Feinstein is a foul bitch. Torture, Patriot Act, Iraq...she sucks ass. In deep blue California where it's possible to elect somebody far left, we can do better. George Miller comes to mind and would be a real friend of labor.
tesaar said...
Shane: Actually it´s quite simple to see it occur. Just make a petition asking if the employees would be willing to support a proposal to have a secret ballot vote about unionization. Signing such a petition would in no way tell your personal preference.
What? Why would someone who wants a union (and knows they will get one automatically if less than 30% of employers sign that petition) sign it? When you're happy with the status quo, you want to allow the employers (pulled from other's comments) to intimidate voters? you would want to have some possibility that what you would like and will have gets taken away? Seriously?
Would you support a petition to have another vote for president right now? (assuming you support Obama) Why not?
No, the signers of your proposed petition would be those workers who would prefer not to have a union.
Mitch,
Then it should be easy for you to describe a situation under the new law where a secret ballot would occur. I would rather hear that from you than petty insults. I look forward to your reply.
I would just like to hear a reasonable situation in which a secret ballot would be called. That can't be too hard to describe, can it?
Oh, and similar question to you that I posed to mike...Don't I need to watch Fox News to be a 'brainwashed FixedNews idiot'?
Please, just describe ONE scenario where a secret ballot could be called.
Shane: Huh? I think you got my intention wrong. I meant that those who want to have union would try to get 30% to sign in order to at least have the secret ballot vote. Not that not signing would mean supporting unionization outright.
So shortly:
>30% sign--->secret ballot vote
<30% sign--->nothing happens
Shane:
This should have been clear from MinM's post, but I see that analysis is not your strong suit. Say the "evil union" gets 50% plus 1, but a significant minority of folks like you are mad about it. If you can find 30% of your co-workers (assuming you work), then you force a secret ballot election. I actually see this as a very plausible scenario. Do you agree?
well, my point was that if you're in the 30% to 50% range of signing, why would you think that you could get the votes in a secret ballot but not with the card sign? And above, people have said (though I'm taking their word for it) that most of the time the union will wait until they have 50-60% of employees signing the cards before they request a ballot anyway (probably for the reason I said above)
Shane:
I'll take that as a yes. I agree with you that Union's will use the "card check" option as opposed to the sacred secret ballot. But, if the employee's of a given business feel "intimidated," they retain the right to force a secret ballot if 30% of their co-workers want it. But the key, which you seem to be missing, is that 30% of the employee's must request the secret ballot, not management. Accordingly, your intimidation "analysis" just doesn't fly. Its a sound-bite lacking any truth. If a Union starts intimidating folks into signing, people like you can force a secret ballot. Do you understand?
E-dub
Folks like me? Analysis isn't my strong suit? LMAO.
Anyway, if you think that it's a likely scenario when a MINIMUM of 80% of the workforce must take a public stand on the issue, we'll just have to disagree.
But please, keep hurling the petty insults. it's ok. And you can keep making baseless assumptions too.
Shane:
I'll take that as a yes.
Then you take it wrong. I wasn't replying to you.
I agree with you that Union's will use the "card check" option as opposed to the sacred secret ballot. But, if the employee's of a given business feel "intimidated," they retain the right to force a secret ballot if 30% of their co-workers want it. But the key, which you seem to be missing, is that 30% of the employee's must request the secret ballot, not management. Accordingly, your intimidation "analysis" just doesn't fly. Its a sound-bite lacking any truth. If a Union starts intimidating folks into signing, people like you can force a secret ballot. Do you understand?
the key which I seem to be missing? people like me? Well, I did give you permission to keep hurling petty insults and making bad assumptions I see you've take me up on that. No, my point has been that it is extremely unlikely to have a secret ballot under these rules, and I've asked for an example where it would be used, and noone has given an example where it would.
Instead, we come up with a situation where so many things have to come together, not the smallest of which is having 80%+ of the employees publically express an opinion on unionizing.
This only goes to show how effectively the right has demonized the EFCA. They set the parameters of the argument, that what's at stake is the end of the "free ballot".
Feinstein has a long history of sensing tarbabies where there aren't any. When she was Mayor of San Francisco she vetoed a domestic partner measure, despite the fact that San Francisco clergy widely endorsed it, because her sights were set on the Senate and she didn't want any previous pro-gay stand to taint that effort.
So now that so many millions of corporate dollars (yep folks, the same companies that are slashing payrolls by the tens of thousands) have bankrolled the No on EFCA without a reciprocal effort by the Yes on EFCA folks, its prospects are dimming rapidly. Even if the bill is rewritten chances of its passage remain woeful; too much has been thrown at it, and Democrats are beginning to see EFCA as worth sacrificing to keep the GOP smug and happy for a week or two.
Troll:
This is what you asked for:
"I would just like to hear a reasonable situation in which a secret ballot would be called. That can't be too hard to describe, can it?
Please, just describe ONE scenario where a secret ballot could be called."
I answered your question in full. Assume two things for me. First, that you have a job. Second, that a Unionization drive is on-going at your place of employment. Now, do you honestly disagree with the notion that >80% of employee's would feel strongly about something so directly affecting their lives,jobs, and families? And FYI, Freeper talking points DO NOT constitute analysis.
Troll? Freeper? Do you call anyone you assume disagrees with you a troll?
Sorry I saw the bill (or MinM's summary of said bill) and asked about it. I just went through most of the plausible situations in my head, didn't' see ANY of them leading to a secret ballot taking place, and was wondering why the defenders of this bill were saying it didn't effectively get rid of the secret ballot.
It's truly a sad day when thinking for one's self is considered trollish. Or asking for someone to explain their assertions. I personally don't put ideology ahead of intellect.
And I'd just note that you're making an assumption (and will admit that I did too) about whether more than 80% of the people care (or could be coerced into signing). And if the union can coerce more than 50% to sign, that means you're getting into the range where close to 100% of the employees must have signed. So there's this ONE probably extremely unlikely scenario in which a secret ballot would take place. Again, pretty much this bill would kill the secret ballot.
And to Pragmatus, I'm not arguing whether this is a good bill or not. I wanted to know if I was missing something--I just want to know the effects of bills before making a decision on them. And I've heard the assertations from both sides, and I thought I'd ask one side why they're claiming what they are.
Troll:
First you said:
"Please, just describe ONE scenario where a secret ballot could be called."
Now you say:
"So there's this ONE probably extremely unlikely scenario in which a secret ballot would take place."
Your welcome buddy.
I initially said reasonable scenario, but since I had to keep asking, sometimes I didn't type out the whole thing.
You're welcome buddy.
Whatever DiFi decides to do with her political future, I hope she gets her ass handed to her.
Being a so-called "moderate" or Blue Dog in a Red State is one thing, but California? The Dems could run Jewington Analplay for senate and win handily. Besides, DiFi is about as corrupt as they come in the Democratic party.
Here's a question: Who out of all the senate Blue Dogs do you think are genuinely conservative, or for that matter moderate? I mean, look at their donors, they're mostly corporate lobbyists. Like the Ben Nelsons and Kent Conrads, DiFi has simply been bought off. Max Baucus is another one. His eageraness in heading up healthcare reform is a bit suspicious. What are his intentions? His biggest donor is the insurance industry.
Right now, I'd say the only senators I even remotely trust are Bernie Sanders, Russ Feingold, Jim Webb, and perhaps Jon Tester. For the most part, those senators seem genuine, vote their conscience, are hard-working, and aren't corrupt.
Addressing the question of whether Feinstein will run for Governor of California or not:
Reading the LA Times piece that Nate links to makes me think that Feinstein will not run for Governor. While she may be considering it, it seems to me that she is considering it in a "wanting to keep all her options open" kind of way, just because it feels good to have options. But if the past is any indicator, she won't actually run. Flirt with running, but not actually run.
I think that Nate did an analysis a while back that DiFi was not motivated to run for governor and I think that that analysis was correct. A run for governor is not needed to explain Difi position on card check (and yes that is what we call it in the labor movement). DiFi is not and never has been a liberal (or a democrat for that matter) and she has never been a friend of labor.
To Shane:
I understand why you might be getting frustrated with some of the replies, but I also think you're missing the point made by a couple of people as to how a secret ballot still can happen under EFCA. Let me try to sketch out a scenario in more detail.
Many, including yourself, are concerned about "union" (even though there isn't a union yet) intimidation tactics. In reality while that can happen it's not particularly common, but let's assume for this hypothetical case that it does. Would-be union leaders at a workplace strongarm enough people into signing the card such that it gets to 50% +1.
Now, given the intimidation, presumably a number of those who signed the card don't really want a union - Mean Joe Union just scared them into it - or at least the prefer a secret ballot election. And the other half of the workforce did not sign a card, presumably because they also do not want a union. So what happens now?
Those anti-union folks (who under this argument are more than half of the workforce) now need to petition for a secret ballot election (I think they have a couple of months to do this, but forget the exact time frame). If just 30% of employees sign such a petition (and that should not be hard since under this scenario more than half really don't want a union, and since my understanding is union organizers and the employer do not see the names on the petition) then a secret ballot election is held. Presumably under this scenario the union would then be handily defeated.
Is it difficult to imagine this happening? Not in the slightest in my view. Thus, again, EFCA does not take away the right of workers to hold an election. All you need is 30% of the workforce opting for secret ballot istead of unionization via card check. If you cannot get that 30% to sign a simple petition, then presumably the workplace is in favor of unionizing via card check (as still happens RIGHT NOW TODAY - another thing anti-EFCA folks don't seem to realize).
What EFCA does do is make it more difficult for workers at workplaces who ARE strongly pro-union - and there are a lot of those - to be intimidated by their employer in the course of an election - elections which, by any objective measure, do not qualify as "free and fair" in the sense we traditionally understand it.
I'm not sure if that is a better explanation Shane, but your belief that secret ballot elections will, in reality, never happen under EFCA is simply not backed up by the facts. It's a seemingly common-sense assumption that happens to not be true.
I'm not trying to knock anyone personally, but many people have commented against EFCA here on fivethirtyeight, and their comments seem to be based far more on "let me think this through myself with little or no information," rather than on an informed understanding of what EFCA actually does. The right has framed the issue terribly well.
TROLL Shane,
Yes, I call you a TROLL now, whereas prior I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
A TROLL does NOT read what has been presented, nor does a TROLL do any research into a subject, but only presents talking points from some other site that also have not been researched - you do that nicely, so I will post the information again, rewording them a bit so that almost anyone should be able to understand.
How do you think a unionization drive with a secret ballot now occurs?
With a card check - all employees are handed cards, which if they sign means that want to have an election to decide if there will be a union representing the employees. Signing the card check does not mean they will vote for a union, but rather that they want to hold an election.
If more than 30% of the employees sign the card check, the NLRB can call for an election.
However, since union organizers know that it might be fairly easy to get 30-35% of the vote, it's that remaining 15-20% that is harder, and so they keep trying to organize until they get much more than the required minimum.
Also remember, signing a card check (UNDER CURRENT RULES) does not mean you will vote for or against a union in a secret ballot - it just means you want an election to be held.
Under the proposed legislation, if 50% + 1 or more employees sign a card check, the NLRB then can allow the union to organize a bargaining unit without the requirement for an election. HOWEVER, if more than 30% of the employees sign a card check, but request an election at the time they sign the card check, then an election MUST be held.
Question answered?
@E-Dub:
[quote]I agree with you that Union's will use the "card check" option as opposed to the sacred secret ballot. But, if the employee's of a given business feel "intimidated," they retain the right to force a secret ballot if 30% of their co-workers want it.[/quote]
Do you honestly see no disconnect whatsoever between union intimidation of employees as the problem and employees openly organizing against the union as the solution?
@ All:
As I said earlier, I think the point of this "secret ballot" qualm isn't that the secret ballot is totally eliminated in every case (obviously it isn't), but that the proposed changes are designed to make a secret ballot _much less likely_ to happen in the certification process (and apparently to offer a substantial new incentive for union misconduct in the card signing process). Semantic quibbling aside, why should that happen?
Under current labor law, workers can select union representation either through an election process or through majority sign-up (also known as “card check”). However, the U.S. National Labor Relations Board will certify a union as the exclusive representative of employees only if it is selected by a secret ballot NLRB election or if the employer agrees to a card check process (often called a "neutrality agreement".) An election may be held if more than 30 percent of employees in a bargaining unit sign cards asking for representation by a union. A company can refuse to bargain with a union chosen by workers through majority sign-up, even if 100 percent of the workers want to be represented by the union. The choice of whether to use an election process or majority sign-up to form the union is now exclusively controlled by companies. [http://www.slate.com/id/2213352/]
If enacted, the Employee Free Choice Act would require the NLRB to certify a bargaining representative without directing an election if a majority of the bargaining unit employees signed such cards through the majority sign-up process. [http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.uscongress/legislation.110hr800]
Dianne Feinstein cosponsored the so-called anti-flag desecration amendment in the Senate.
This is someone who wants to take away our freedom of speech. I can't vote for her.
Feinstein's wavering on EFCA, which is just an attempt to repair the current system in which workers' basic human rights are routinely trampled, is one more reason to oppose her. She's way to the right of Joe Lieberman.
Correction to that last citation:
It should read:
http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.uscongress/legislation.111hr1409
By the way, that will link you to the House site that gives full text of the bill, where you can read it yourself.
I'll address two posters here.
First, Geoff, thank you for that well-reasoned and rational reply. What you wrote was exactly what I was asking for in the first place. I do see seeds of what others said in your reply, but you've stated it well. I do hope that your impression that the union and the employers don't see the lists is true...and btw, I'm concerned about anyone intimidating anyone in the process.
In regards to your second to last paragraph, that's something I also like to instill in others (and what I was trying to do). Often times the situation needs to be well thought out to see what is going to happen, especially when something is very tricky. And that's what I was trying to do--figure out if/what I was missing. And yes, I was mainly going by MinM's description of the law.
Second, MinM, I take offense at being called a Troll. But if you want to keep hurling insults my way for trying to learn about something and asking about it, well, I can't stop you. And you keep saying I'm presenting talking points from some other site? Laughable. But I also can't stop you from making terrible assumptions. It just seems that I'm a troll in your mind because I apparently don't agree with you.
And no, you still didn't answer the question. But luckily for you, Geoff did. After all, your attempted answer still leaves holes-in all seriousness, how many people would sign a card saying they want a vote on something to vote no on it? Maybe combined with Geoff's answer it might be protection for those employees being pressured by the union, but if they're being pressured for their card, they can be pressured not to check that box.
Again, you answer that something can be done, but your answer is well short on why or in what cases it would be done--which was my question in the first place. Not if it was still legal, or if it was impossible to happen, but rather if it was likely to happen. However, Geoff answered my question beautifully, which I thank him for again.
@ Quixote who wrote:
"...the proposed changes are designed to make a secret ballot _much less likely_ to happen in the certification process (and apparently to offer a substantial new incentive for union misconduct in the card signing process). Semantic quibbling aside, why should that happen?"
The proposed changes are designed to make a secret ballot less likely only when the overwhelming majority want a union and sign cards to that effect. If even 30% of the workforce does not want a union, or at least wants a secret ballot election, then those folks sign a petition and the election happens. My understanding is that the names of those who sign such a petition are not revealed to pro-union forces or the employer. So how does EFCA make it "much less likely" for there to be a secret ballot election if even as little as a third of the workforce wants it? Please explain that to me, and not just with some broad "because the union will intimidate them" statement. Explain to me specifically how that will happen.
I also don't see how the law gives a new incentive for union misconduct. We have "card check" right now you know. Right now, if 30% of workers sign a card there is an election. So if you're that concerned with union shenanigans then you should hate the current system, since presumably it gives union organizers "substantial incentive" to force workers to sign a card until we get 30%. I don't see how the calculus changes all that much with EFCA if you really think union intimidation is such a big deal - they'll just be going for 50% instead of 30% (but please note that I reject your suggestion that union intimidation is a serious problem).
So why do EFCA? Because the real issue is employer intimidation and the fact that the current NLRB-run election system is not anything remotely like a free and fair secret ballot election. If you are thinking that union elections work like an election for governor or U.S. senator, stop thinking that. They don't. Employers ROUTINELY - this is incredibly well documented - intimidate workers who want to unionize through a variety of means.
EFCA makes it possible for a workforce that is overwhelmingly pro-union (i.e. 70% or more are unwilling to sign a petition for an election) to form a union without being intimated by employers. If 30% of workers want a secret ballot vote then they get it.
If you've never read about how union elections actually (routinely) unfold in American workplaces, then please Google some pro-labor type websites and read up a bit. It might change your view of EFCA.
The funny thing about the whole secret ballot argument is that really isn't the important part of the legislation. It's just the false argument the pro corporate forces throw out there to side track and obscure the real issue.
Right now if you go to organize a bargaining unit thru all the regulatory hurtles the NLRB puts in front of you and you fight thru a ugly work place election, the employer can still just ignore you. They have no reason to bargain in good fair with you. Close to half the workers who win a NLRB election never get a 1st contract. Look it up. The whole point of organizing is not some live civics experiment. It is to get a contract that defines your right and obligations to your employer and your employers rights and obligations to you. You can bet your boss has a contract. Why can't You have one?
With the new legislation you will get a contract. A fair one. That is the real reason CEO's oppose it.
Look these are the guys who opposed minimum wage law, and EVERY law that helps workers. Do you honestly think they give a dam about your work place freedom?
Also in 2007, around 29,000 US workers had to be reinstated by NLRB action because they were illegally fired or disciplined for even uttering the word Union, thats from Bush's department of Labor BTW. And there are no penalties for a company doing this except saying sorry and posting a legal notice in the lunch room, EFCA changes that. Cases of organizers going to far have averaged less than one a year for many decades.
Nate -
I think Feinstein's record on labor is a bit more complicated than you imply here.
For one thing, her lifetime rating has jumped in the last couple of years as more moderate labor policies have passed through the Senate; she just hasn't had to vote on much that was controversial as far as labor issues.
Case in point: in 2005, her AFL-CIO rating was 69%, which is a FAR cry from the near-90 numbers she's seen in the last couple of years.
Seems to me that when a bill is controversial enough to threaten campaign contributions from big business, she sides with big business. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I think that as a general rule, it holds true for Feinstein's voting record.
This isn't just something she's doing because she may be running for governor, this is something she's ALWAYS done.
If Patterson appointed a conservative to shore up his right flank, perhaps Feinstein would appoint a liberal to shore up her left flank? One can only hope...
@Geoff:
First, you and other posters are routinely conflating "want" with "openly sign cards to that effect", completely begging the question at hand, which is whether lack of secrecy compromises the reliability of the card-signing as an expression of what employees want. I suspect that if it were an employer standing over employees and collecting signatures to preempt union certification, you'd suddenly see the troubling aspect of this.
[quote]So how does EFCA make it "much less likely" for there to be a secret ballot election if even as little as a third of the workforce wants it?[/quote]
It is much less likely because it can no longer happen when a third of the workforce does NOT "want" it by openly demanding it. I cannot see how this point is controversial unless you are going to claim that ballots do not currently happen in the absence of express employee "want" for them.
[quote]So if you're that concerned with union shenanigans then you should hate the current system, since presumably it gives union organizers "substantial incentive" to force workers to sign a card until we get 30%.[/quote]
The likely reward for union misconduct at that stage under the current system is a secret ballot (affording employees the opportunity to repudiate the result of the cards). The likely reward under the proposed change is certification of the union. The latter is obviously a stronger incentive for shenanigans, whether you believe that unions would tend to act on it or not.
But for what it's worth, you're right: judging from my limited knowledge of it, I do not think the current process is perfect either. And I realize that this is just one aspect of the EFCA which, were I voting on the bill, I might decide was outweighed by other features. But my qualm about this particular proposal is that it seems at best an absurdly crude attempt to "balance the scales", rather than any sort of good faith effort to find a sensible answer to an actual flaw in the existing system.
Quixote you said:
"It is much less likely because it can no longer happen when a third of the workforce does NOT "want" it by openly demanding it. I cannot see how this point is controversial unless you are going to claim that ballots do not currently happen in the absence of express employee "want" for them."
I read that several times and am afraid I cannot parse it. I just don't know what you are saying.
But I'll add this which may speak to your point. Under the current law when 30% of the workers sign cards they get an election. Under EFCA if 30% of workers sign a petition (after 50% have signed cards) they get an election (also obviously if the number who signed a card is between 30-50% then there is an election). Again, what is the difference as you see it? How is it more likely for the 30% of anti-union employees to be intimidated into not signing a petition for an election (under EFCA) than it is for those same employees to be intimidated into signing cards (under the current system?). How - in reality, not in theory - would EFCA detract from workplace democracy in terms of making decisions about forming a union?
And what's your alternative? Just hold a union election at every workplace in the country without a card-signing drive? I would not mind that at all and I'm sure labor would be fine with it if the elections were actually fair, but management won't go for it.
And to compare possible employer intimidation with possible union organizer intimidation suggests that you kinda just don't get how big of a problem the former is. I don't know what your image of modern day unionism is, but as a rule we're not talking about the kind of stuff Marlon Brando saw in On the Waterfront.
I'd like to know how you think union organizing actually works. Remember, we're talking here about workplaces where there is not a union. So do you really think it's common for the pro-union folks at workplaces like these to get together a bunch of young thugs and go around scaring everyone into signing union cards "or else"? What's your evidence that that happens with any frequency? Do you really think the kind of intimidation one pro-union employee could exert on an anti-union employee even remotely approaches the pressure that management can (and does) exert on pro-union folks?
Now is it possible for union people to be intimidating? Of course, but it's not particularly common, and it's already illegal. Also if workers don't like their union they can completely decertify it. Employer intimidation is, on the other rampant. It's also illegal, but the punishment is so minimal under current law that in the end it's worthwhile to engage in illegal union busting practices and pay the minimal price for it later. You seem to be equating (if even roughly) employer intimidation with union intimidation and I find that patently absurd.
You're certainly right that neither the current nor proposed system is perfect, far from it. We live in the real world though, and in the real world unionization is nigh on impossible in this country because labor laws and their enforcement (or lack thereof) give an enormous advantage to business. EFCA is a way to tilt that balance slightly back toward workers while still leaving the choice about having a union or not in workers' hands.
For anyone who thinks unions are a bad thing, then yes, EFCA is bad. But if you think a strong union movement is good for the U.S. (which is what the historical evidence suggests), then I think it deserves your support.
Just jumping in here;
The catch to union strongarming is that if evidence of that reaches the NLRB it will invalidate the union - they could talk to you and push you a bit, but intimidation and coercion would invalidate the majority sign-up. It can't be majorly abused.
By contrast, employers have proven that they take advantage of the "secret ballot" mockery of a democratic election to harass, intimidate, "re-educate", and threaten their workers... a quarter of unionization campaigns result in an average of 4 workers being illegally fired.
Finally, majority sign-up is already a perfectly valid way to organize a union. In fact, millions of workers have organized that way over the past decade. The catch is that it is currently the employer's choice, not the workers, whether majority sign-up is enough. A democratic process would give that decision to the workers.
But she's OLD.
She'll be 77 in 2010.
she'll be over 81 at the end of her first term.
Don:
You said:
"Do you honestly see no disconnect whatsoever between union intimidation of employees as the problem and employees openly organizing against the union as the solution?"
EFCA does not require that anti-Union "employees openly organiz[e] against the union" to oppose a unionization drive. They simply "check" the secret ballot election box/choice. Nothing more. If one is against "union intimidation" (which is purely hypothetical at this point), logical consistency requires you to be against management intimidation (not so hypothetical) of workers as well. In my mind, EFCA addresses the very real problem of intimidation on each end: it check's managements’ hand while preserving the secret ballot option if a substantial portion of the workforce is against unionization. So Don, I honestly see no disconnect whatsoever between hypothetical/potential union intimidation of employees and hostile employees checking the secret ballot option in protest. EFCA isn't about removing any employee rights (purportedly the "secret ballot"), it’s about curtailing the “right” of management to suppress unionization drives.
Sorry, short on time to reply...
@ E-Dub:
Maybe I'm unimaginative, but why on Earth would someone feel intimidated into signing the card as the organizers suggest, yet simultaneously feel perfectly free to check the box on that card to demand a secret ballot?
@ Geoff Johnson:
You may be right that I should support the EFCA as a whole. I understand the concerns that you raise. It's just that "employers are the devil, anything that helps unions is good" is far less appealing than "here is a specific flaw in the unionization process, and here is an appropriate solution." Unfortunately the latter sort of argument appears to be rarely if ever mustered for this particular aspect of the bill.
@ Saving Hawaii:
"In fact, millions of workers have organized that way over the past decade."
I have it on good authority that, in the real world, unionization is nigh on impossible in this country.
Reading this as a foreigner, there seems to be one issue which will clarify whether the bill militates against the secret ballot or not. That is whether the petition for a ballot is secret, or the names on it are known to the other workers.
If the latter, then that would seem to make it much less likely that workers would see any value in petitioning for a ballot, since most people petitioning for a ballot are likely to be against unionization, and the petition would therefore effectively compromise the secrecy of the ballot before it happened and open any petitioner to accusations of being a 'scab' (or whatever word you guys use).
If the petition itself is secret, I can't see the problem.
Maybe someone can inform/correct me on this - preferably not one of the children who bawl inanities like 'troll' and 'freeptard' whenever someone disagrees with them.
@ Quixote:
http://www.americanrightsatwork.org/publications/general/half-a-million-and-counting-20080917-654-116-116.html
Over half a million Americans have organized via majority sign-up in the past five years. No problems, no intimidation, no coercion.
The change the Employee Free Choice Act makes is that it gives workers the decision between elections and majority sign-up, rather than leaving that decision to corporate managers who have demonstrated time and time again their willingness to abuse their authority to coerce employees in the ballot booth.
My own view is that you can go crazy trying to read people's motivations in voting on an issue and interpreting what that means for a future run at a different issue.
I think the age thing is an issue for Feinstein in California. I wonder if here leads in polls right now have more to do with name recognition rather than anything else. Also she doesn't have the most popular reputation in California Democratic circles, so my guess is that in the end someone like Gavin Newsom would be a more likely nominee, especially with the Dems trying ot push a new image, and maybe begin to build a field for the 2016 primaries.
More simple than you think:
Check out COSTCO and DiFi's hubby.
Then COSTCO decides it wants to negotiate. The DiFi get lukewarmness.
Follow the money. She will never run for Gov.
Dianne Feinstein's ethical issues with her husband:
http://www.metroactive.com/feinstein/
Do you think it might be even remotely possible that Diane Fienstein is actually an ethical, patriotic person? Just maybe she sees how screwed up California is and doesn't want to help unions do to the rest of the US what they've helped "achieve" in California.
Saving Hawaii: Erm...How does the fact that more than half a million Americans have organized via majority sign up prove there was no coercion involved? I'm on the fence myself, but that's just a bizarre claim, particularly for this site.
@Mike in Maryland:
The argument against a petition is that when someone signs, it can be used as persuasion for others to sign.
Okay, valid point. I guess my larger point was that we manage to conduct elections from the city council to the President quickly, conveniently and without intimidation; I don't understand why we cannot use the same machinery, or at least borrow it, to conduct a union election for a corporation; presuming a union or group of organizers is willing to pay for the cost involved.
It seems to me we could model it after absentee voting with return postcard ballots or something like that; and pay an at-cost fee to a few federal clerks to tally the vote.
Of course, after reading your description of the current law, I admit I was less informed than I should have been, and I have decided I am, on balance, in favor of the EFCA.
I am a liberal that believes in easy unionization. As a consultant privy to Cxx level discussions, I can relate firsthand the near-criminal abuses and manipulations of employees for profit motivations.
I am not a believer in free markets; but I find it ironic (or perhaps hypocritical) that supposed "free market" proponents are opposed to unions: The entire philosophy of the true free market permits taking any legal advantage you can to make a profit, and isn't that all unionizing workers are doing? Engaging in collective bargaining to force employers into signing labor contracts to increase their wages and benefits, and thus their profits?
I honestly don't see how this is any different than Walmart driving their suppliers down to 3% profit margins or demanding unconditional return rights. It is not different than Microsoft threatening to cut off the supply of Windows to Dell if Dell installs the free copy of Netscape on their computers.
I think both examples are abuses, but free marketers love 'em. But of course, they only love deregulation and the anything goes free market culture when it doesn't hurt their margins. The minute the free market threatens their ROI, they need bail outs, they need regulations, most urgently in protecting them from those unions that want to engage in collective bargaining for services rendered: A core free market principle!
If Feinstein won the governor's race, would she really get to appoint her own replacement? If someone could explain to me how all that shit works, I would very much appreciate it.
As someone who has seen an actual unionisation drive, I can say that it is employer intimidation far and away that has the greater effect.
Those who talk about "increased protections" against employer intimidation should provide concrete examples of those proposed protections. Frankly, all of the intimidation that I saw would have been very difficult to legislate against.
One example out of more than a dozen, which resulted in termination of pro-union employees:
Upon entering the premises, an employee is beckoned on to the shop floor by a supervisor to look at scrap parts they were alleged to have produced. The moment that the employee steps on to the shop floor, they are fired for not wearing safety glasses in a production area. It turns out that there are no "scrap parts" at all; it was just a ruse to get the employee to walk into the production area before they were prepared to enter it properly. Pro-union employee gets fired, and a fearsome example is established.
And the employer is just really, really concerned about safety, of course.
How are you going to protect employees from this kind of tactic with legislation?
Feinstein is stiffing labor because she is a Democrat in name only. Really she is a Republican who is interested in a few "liberal" causes like women's rights.
Nate, you don't know what you're talking about. Dianne Feinstein is NOT running for Governor ... just like she didn't run in 1998. She always polls well because of high name recognition, but she never runs. And a crowded primary where she would have to compete with multiple candidates who raise a lot of money is the LAST thing she wants to put up with.
So why is she hedging on EFCA, although California is a liberal state? Simple ... Dianne Feinstein is viciously and virulently anti-progressive, and has always been ... back to her days as Mayor of San Francisco. She has always governed by pissing off the Left. She co-sponsored EFCA in 2007 because she knew it would fail, or else get vetoed by President Bush. Now, however, she's holding off because it would actually become law.
Feinstein has been quoted talking about how she likes "compromise" in the Senate. Don't be shocked if she ends up voting for EFCA, once it's been castrated beyond all recognition.
Just an anecdote on union organizing and the zealous opposition to it. Raymour and Flanagan, a large NE furniture retailer, had a distribution center in Philadelphia. The workers voted to join the union, within a day the owners fired every worker in the hub, sold the building, and opened a new operation in NJ. They HAD to have planned this from the get go.
A little icing, the owners e-mailed all managers (approx 4 per their 70 stores) that if any talk of this leaked to other employess and/or the press they would be fired too.
I'm not sure what's in EFCA, but I have an idea concerning conduct of union-certifying elections under current law. If an election is pending, any meeting between the employer and employees must either be conducted with witnesses present (i.e., in public) or be recorded. Employees are free to bring their own recording devices to such a meeting. All an employer has to do to avoid such restrictions is to agree to the 50%+1 wanting a union (via card-check). If the employer wants an election, then, the shorter the run-up to the election, the less time such restrictions would be in place.
@Todd: That's a nasty way of getting to fire union organizers. How often did that work before workers got wise to it? EFCA supporters need to get stories like that out into the public domain to help the chances of it passing.
Still no sunspots today, you global warming believers better start praying for some...
http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/sunspots/
Jim Webb for GOD!
We need prison reform, but moreso we need politicians willing to talk about how the system is completely broken:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/03/28/webb/index.html
Do you think it might be even remotely possible that Diane Fienstein is actually an ethical, patriotic person?
That is just as possible as you not being an idiot
DF ethical??? LOL
Brad said...
Still no sunspots today, you global warming believers better start praying for some.
Brad,
The proper term is 'global climate change'.
Climate is defined as "the composite or generally prevailing weather conditions of a region, as temperature, air pressure, humidity, precipitation, sunshine, cloudiness, and winds, throughout the year, averaged over a series of years."
Temperature - if there is global warming (and I suspect there will be), it doesn't mean temperatures everywhere will rise. If the Gulf Stream stops because of the change warmer ocean temperatures cause in ocean currents, London, Paris, Berlin and most of northern Europe will become much colder, with the weather more like the Maritime provinces of Canada, or southern Hudson's Bay in Canada.
Precipitation - some areas will get more precipitation, but other areas will get less. Expect the interior of the US (from the Mississippi River to the coastal range on the Pacific Coast) to get much drier. Expect interior Africa to get much drier, and the Sahara to expand. Expect Central Asia to get much drier, with the Gobi vastly expanding.
polls_apart said...
I'm not sure what's in EFCA
Go to the source. Congress.
Go to http://thomas.loc.gov and enter the bill number (the House version is H.R.1409, the Senate version is S.560), or enter "Employee Free Choice Act" in the search box, then select either or both the House and/or Senate versions.
Mike-
If you have a brain (do you?) you will realize that all those assumptions are based on the same or similar energy inputs (e.g., the sun). Try thinking, I voted for Al Gore, but I am also sure he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about outside politics...
BTW- I am well aware the changes will be different at different locations across across the earth. Maybe you should go look at the periods when the midwestern U.S. was a shallow sea, and when it was under a glacier - both are recent geological history.
Diane Feinstein is 76 years old. Next year she will be 77, so the likelihood of her running for governor seems a tad farfetched. If she ever seems to be really toying seriously with the idea, the Democratic Party will marshal all its forces to dissuade her. The era of the fossil politicians who can always count on winning elections is over. Lady Di will retire after this term, thence to a comfy retirement, thence eventually the grave.
wv styteria: Where pigs go to shop.
Too bad the card can't be sent directly to the NLRB without either the employer or the employee's cohorts knowing what's in it. I guess that's too close to an election anyway.
If there were a way to eliminate intimidation from both sides then it would be an ideal system.
The current system favors employers, by dint of their ability to suppress information and oppose organization. The new system would favor unionization by allowing pressure to be exerted by cohorts.
Mike-
If you can read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_line_of_the_geologic_history_of_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordilleran_ice_sheet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
Maximum glaciation only 18,000 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Ice_Sheet
In addition, the climate is always changing, go look up Maunder Minimum and the little ice age.
The arrogance of the global warmers is astounding, to believe we are "ruining"the planet is the greatest hubris. We are but a speck in planetary history, go over your own importance and have some fun.
STepper-
That is the best idea yet. The real problem as noted above is the employer actually indoctrinating against unions from day one - many blue collar employers actually show videos during hiring of union strikes, associated violence, and the terrible corruption of unions. That is part of the problem....
@ Nathaniel
It would work like this:Feinstein runs for the governorship without resigning as senator.She wins the gubernatorial race on November 3,2009 but is not sworn in until early 2010.A She remains a senator until she resigns a day before she is sworn in as governor.Then,as governor,she gets to appoint the new senator to fill the empty senatorial seat.
A similar sequence of events actually happened in California in 1991-1992.Senator Pete Wilson ran for governor and won in November 1991.He resigned as senator in January 1992 and appointed John Seymour to his old senate seat when he became governor a day or two later.
I believe that the frequency of employer anti-union coercion vastly outweighs the pro-union coercion.Why would a blue collar worker vote against unionization when it would almost always improve his lot?
No unions at Wal-Mart now? With EFCA every Wal-Mart store would be unionized within the year.As they should be!
Only somebody without an ounce of compassion for the downtrodden and abused would be against that.Or against EFCA as the tool to achieve it.
STepper-
While I agree completely with the idea, I also saw the UAW participate in the killing of Case and International Harvester through their insane insistence of pattern bargaining - namely no matter how healthy or unhealthy the employer. John Deere actually went in and intentionally signed a bad contract with the UAW they knew would put their competitors out of business - and the idiotic, completely corrupt UAW went along with Deere and helped Deere kill their competition. Why did International Harvester die? Largely because the UAW would not agree to allowing IH to make the workers work two extra shifts a month if the times were good (e.g. Saturdays) as they could not afford to hire new full time workers (Deere was growing and hiring, so they signed the contract that the UAW then insisted IH sign). Friends of mine from high school have had their live completely ruined by this...
Seriously, that cost thousands of jobs. Unions are great in concept, the problem is the SEIU, the UAW and the AFL-CIO who are corrupt to their core and are not there for the workers...
I can't get to the right answer as Wal-Mart should be unionized, but I really can't blame Wal-Mart for not going along with unions are there now who actually turn the workers AGAINST the company.
Every one of you have missed the main purpose of "the card" I have actually organized workers before. So let's just say “I really know how the process works”. First, I have never had any worker sign a card "for an election", Employees sign cards because they want a union. Every card I have ever passed out and collected stated such. The pressure that employers place on their workforce is incredible. This is why some employees "change their mind". Many are threaten plant closure or termination. Management spends millions of dollars yearly on specialized union busting attorneys who exploit the weakness of the National Labor Relations Act. Here are two examples for potential compromise on this subject matter. Option 1 Add unionization to the current protected discrimination classes (i.e. race, age, handicap status) this would allow employees the right to sue. This makes employers “somewhat” play by the rules concerning obeying the current law concerning protected discriminated classes. Adding anti-unionization as a protected class would, I believe make management follow the current law or face millions in law suits... Option two, make union discrimination a crime with mandatory prison time for offenders, both union and business. My guess is that if either one of these were attempted management would still be against any change that might create a level playing field. Why would they, when every advantage is currently in their favor. Unionization has declined ever since the labor “amendments known as the Taft Hartley were passed in 1947. Taft Hartley made elections the only recognized methods for elections, prior to that, card check was the predominate method of unionization. Unionization is still the best private sector method to rise earning standards, anything less will result in the continue decline of the “so-called” middleclass.
Greg-
You are exactly right on all points - but is the cure as bad as the disease? Look at how the UAW has helped screw Detroit...
You state:
"Unionization is still the best private sector method to rise earning standards, anything less will result in the continue decline of the “so-called” middleclass."
Really? It is true it will drive up salaries for those who cannot move their factories out of the country, but look at the moves to Mexico and China and tell me that again...
The UAW has clearly participated in the ruination of the big 3 through an insistence on $80,000 salaries for line workers, and an insane insistence that competence is irrelevant and only seniority matters...
Oh, and that job bank, where line workers get to drink coffee all day and get paid almost full salaries, and they cannot be asked to do other work...how is that a good idea?
From California-----I'm 58. Does no one remember since 1981 "the flight controllers union" the greedy obstructionist party has devastated UNIONIZATION. If signing a card is easier, GOOD, the Unions deserve a break.-----Diane's a good gal. I always find it funny, from my age groups perspective, the debate, will The Senator, become the Governor? It's like asking, Will the prestigious Professor step down to teach kingergarden? And if I may add, a class with a bunch of hick, bullies, with the 2/3 required majority to pass a budget. I don't think Diane's gotten so old that she would plunge (pun intended).-----The real story and the one the LA times, et all, is gunnin' for is PegPal (as in Paypal) Whitman. As a seller, I can tell you, Whitman destroyed Ebay, turning it into QVC, except that you can not accept cash or checks, only Paypal (i.e. 2.5%, CREDIT CARDS ONLY PLEEEASE) If you put accept "cash or checks" into your listing, an ebay BOT will find your listing & delist you..... goodness, we do like paranoia, we know who you are.... If whoever wins the Dems side, does an ad, of ebay sellers, I don't think PegPal, would get 10% of ebay sellers votes. Funny, really.-----538 is a statistical site. I thought I'd add a thought "Lights Out on Newspapers" The LA Times, did not have a picture of last nights hour long "Lights Out for the Environment". The article about, was in the Ca. section (not World) and was 2 paragraphs long. Statistics, I wonder how many newspapers in the all of the US, had a picture of the "Lights Out". They wonder why they are folding, Duhhh.... The times My Dears, they are a changing.-----P.S. I hope this post isn't traceable by PegPals BOTS....ick.
cahealth-
Did you learn to post from t.s. eliot? How about some punctuation and paragraphs.
My html s didn't take. I don't know why, sorry
Opus 132—
Wrong years all-around. California will elect a new Governor in 2010.
Back in history, Wilson defeated Feinstein in 1990 (Senate resignation, Gubenatorial inauguration and interim Senate appointment in 1991) and Feinstein defeated Seymour in the race to finish out the final two years of the Senate term in 1992.
I don't think Feinstein will make another run for Governor and, even should she, I think Brown (who lost the 1982 election for the Senate seat Feinstein currently occupies to Wilson) and Villaraigosa will finish first and second or second and first on June 8, 2010.
@ Opus 132
Thanks for the expo.
Unions promote mediocrity. If I'm the best at what I do and go to my boss and demand a raise, the union chaps bust my chops because I have ZERO bargaining power.
If I am below average and keep my head down, I make more than the newer guys that out perform me.
It's easy to be the best at what you do - work hard (and live in a right to work state). Then you don't need unions.
Holy crap, Brad.
You're really a moron!
I mean, you go out of your way to show that you have an amazing lack of mental acuity.
@ loner
Whoops! Two bads.Off a year in both cases.
Thanks for the corrections.
Sad to see so much inanity here again from the pro-EFCA crowd. As if by repeating ad-nausuem that it wouldn't eliminate secret balloting for union elections makes it so. What tortured logic.
I particularly like the comment from Greg @ 6:16 PM that it should be a crime for employers to be anti-union by making union activists a protected class and taking away their right to campaign. Dream on.
I'd love to hear from one of these pro-union people under what circumstances would it be appropriate and desirable for an employee or employer to oppose unionization. Silly question, I know.
I hope most of you who are taxpayers know that so many of the state budget problems faced are because the public sector showed little backbone in opposing or negotiating with unions while they went after that growth area among public employees. We all will be paying for that for generations, with little to no discernable benefit to the taxpayers.
@ Dale
If you work at Wal Mart and are the best at stocking shelves at your store so you go and ask the boss for a raise, they will laugh in your face. If you keep bugging them they'll probably just fire you since there are plenty of folks to take your place. This is the case for millions and millions of jobs in the U.S.
I don't know what world you live in that you think simply "working hard" guarantees fair compensation. There are tens of millions of Americans who work their asses off for wages which barely put them above the poverty level and/or for little or nothing in the way of health insurance. History shows that folks who are in unions are paid better and receive better benefits then their counterparts who are not. This is a simple fact.
The implication of your comment seems to be that those who don't make good money are either lazy or somehow held back by their union. That's ridiculous and suggests that you have a fair amount of contempt for a whole lot of working class people.
@ Rudy
It's appropriate for an employer to oppose a union whenever they feel it's appropriate (which is almost always) and of course they have that right. And if an employee does not like the idea of joining a union (for whatever reason) then s/he should not join and even work against the formation of a union. So the answer to your "silly question" - you got that part right! - is that it's appropriate for an employer or employee to oppose unionization if that's how they feel about it. I don't think anyone said otherwise, and can't imagine what you think you are talking about.
And as to your claim that public sector unions are to blame for state budget problems that we will be paying for for generations--can I get a citation on that, or are just making up nonsense? I'm sure you're an expert on state budgets and compensation levels for public sector employees who are unionized (and the relationship between the two over the past couple of decades) so by all means enlighten us.
I won't hold my breath for that, but do weigh in again if you come up with something to say beyond name calling ("inane"), unsupported attacks ("tortured logic"), and fear mongering (the unions have screwed us for generations!). That is to say - weigh in again when you can articulate an actual argument.
Opus 132—
I'd intended to answer Nathaniel's question and was checking to see if anyone else had done so when I came upon your answer, which was pretty much what I was going to write except for the year thing. It was a smile in an otherwise dreary day. Thanks.
After reading the comments in this thread, I'm no longer ambivalent regarding whether EFCA should be a legislative priority. It should and I hope Senator Feinstein gets the message loud and clear from her constituents. Pathetic.
The Democrats have always been a divided lot. Unlike the GOP,a weird fusion of fundamentalist religious cultists and Wall Street bankers and oil companies, seems better able to vote as a bloc. Even when these constituencies are in direct conflict, as they were when the stem cell debate brought Big Pharma into direct conflict with the Cultists, a compromise was hashed out that didn't serve either group's interests-and yet they stuck to it like glue, because they understood that if they fell in on each other then they were done for.
This is even more true for the Democrats. The raw truth is that the past two election cycles have not been as much a vote for the Democratic Party so much as a repudiation of the GOP. As such, the Democrats are on shaky ground until they can establish a solid platform to present to the American people, since the mood of the electorate can shift suddenly and without any warning. What is described one week as the hangover from the Bush Presidency can easily morph into the anemic response of the Obama Administration to long standing problems that required bolder action.
While Obama himself has a platform, the Democratic Party as a whole seems to be having difficulty rallying around it or around even their party's base. For a party that controls damn near 60 seats in the Senate and a majority in the House, passing legislation should be a piece of cake. FDR had similar leads in the Congress, and the New Deal sailed thru the legislature with alacrity. Had the Party any sense of discipline, Obama's legislation should enjoy safe passage as well. And yet, we have these petty squabbles, as Blue Dogs snap at Labor and GLBTs, as environmentalists are called into question for things the scientific community overwhelmingly affirms, and yet ideologues can't accept as true.
I hope Obama succeeds. If he fails, we can only blame the bickering and infighting that has always been the Achilles' Heel of those who reject solidarity in the name of promoting individual egos.
We shall stand together, or we shall hang separately. Remember that our success is not guaranteed, and that there will be no one to blame except ourselves if we blow it. Nobody will listen to the excuses and whining of "Oh, it was all Labor's fault" or "Those damn Blue Dogs did it". We will all fall together if any one of us falls.
It is in our best interest to support each other. Labor needs the support of the Environmentalists, the GLBTs need the support of the Pro-Choice lobby, we all need to stand together. One big union against the machine.
Statler N Waldorf said...
It is in our best interest to support each other. Labor needs the support of the Environmentalists, the GLBTs need the support of the Pro-Choice lobby, we all need to stand together. One big union against the machine.
Well stated.
Then again, I remember you stating that if a certain Democrat is the nominee for Senator in Louisiana next year, you will not support him, but rather vote for a third party candidate, or even vote for the Republican candidate.
When did the change of heart occur?
Or did it?
@Brad:
Look at how the UAW has helped screw Detroit...
Right, the union did it. Not the management collectively siphoning off a few hundred million a year in compensation that could have gone into R&D, not the management that was actually responsible for the long term health of the corporations, not the management responsible for signing contracts with the UAW and then abandoning all responsibility for funding them until their obligations were so large they could never keep them, not the management that was spending hundreds of millions on lobbyists to fight pitched battles against higher fuel standards at every turn for forty years. Not the management, they didn't do it.
No, let's blame it on the union for demanding safe jobs with health care and pensions, because it should be obvious to anybody that a company cannot be profitable without slaves at the bottom being exploited by royalty at the top, right?
Perhaps Feinstein is simply trying to compete with the Obama administration. The White House's discriminatory approach to bailouts (banks v. cars) will certainly extract huge concessions from labor unions, while fat cats on Wall Street get their losses covered PLUS capital for new investments in the same banks they ruined. DISSENTING JUSTICE: Discriminatory Bailouts? $2 Trillion for Wall Street, Tough Love for Detroit
@Rudy:
I'd love to hear from one of these pro-union people under what circumstances would it be appropriate and desirable for an employee or employer to oppose unionization.
Take a company like Whole Foods; they would probably oppose unionization. Or Gore Tex.
These companies pay people based on merit; and the employees have real power to make decisions. In both companies, the interview process is weeks long, and the final decision to hire (or fire) is democratic, a vote of the team with whom the prospect would be working.
In both companies, pay is a base wage plus productivity bonuses, and the average pay is 25% to 100% more than the industry standard. This is true for everyone, from the janitors to the CEO.
Both are open book companies on all expenses and all salaries.
One is a grocery store and one is an industrial manufacturer, and both are quite profitable with one tenth the average employee turnover for similar companies, because they are lucrative and enjoyable places to work.
These are not the only companies like this; Gary Hamel (in the Future of Management) outlines the workings of a dozen or so different examples, including Google.
The difference in these companies is that pay is essentially based on the economic value of the work done. That is complex to compute (It is no accident these companies are founded by scientists), but easy to understand: If your three man janitorial team can do the work of an industry-standard six guys, you and the company split the economic value created: Your team gets the pay of 4.5 industry standard janitors. The company wins by paying 25% less for the work done, the janitors win by getting paid 50% more than their industry average janitorial wage in their area.
Now if you put out no extra effort you win no extra pay above the average. If you can't meet the industry average productivity, you don't get to stay. But, as we all know intuitively, it turns out that cashiers, shelf-stockers, janitors, warehouse men, fork lift drivers and bookkeepers don't have much difficulty in exceeding the average productivity, sometimes doubling or tripling it.
Now the other trick these companies employ is to assess productivity based on teams of three to twelve people, and in both companies the decision to hire is left entirely with the team. So your team keeps you in line and working, because if you goof off, you are costing them money.
This mechanism makes the teams and entire stores (or factories) self-managed,which further reduces the company's employment expenses.
Employees will not unionize and standardize wages and hiring and grievance procedures in these companies; because it is not in their self-interest.
The fact that it would be in the self-interest of most employees of other companies to unionize just tells us that most companies don't treat employees as partners, they treat them as adversaries to be controlled and forced to work.
Whole Foods and Gore Tex and Google are not saintly charities; they are all highly profitable enterprises that pay less for labor than their competitors by paying more. But the "more" is not in the form of guaranteed high salaries, it is essentially in the form of partnership profits. Instead of trying to appeal to employees with BS morale programs and brass plaques and verbal affirmations and employee luncheons, they appeal to employees the same way you have to appeal to investors: With self interest and bottom line cash profit. They have engineered a way to turn line employees into the equivalent of by-the-job flat-fee contractors, basically entrepreneurs.
If you work for a company like that you don't unionize, it would be stupid. You wouldn't get more out of it, you'd get less: less compensation, less benefits, less freedom to do the right thing, less individual control, and less enjoyment out of your job.
@Jeff:
The statement I made did not relate to what we could borrow, it related to the amount of debt we could afford.
For all your bluster, I don't see an analysis of exactly why we cannot afford more than the GNP in debt. We have had that level of debt in the past, and survived it. Precisely what in my calculation do you find in error? Or are you just attempting some kind of idiotic proof by ridicule?
Clearly you do not understand arithmetic. So once again, here are the facts:
Taxpayers: 225 x 10^6
One Trillion: 1 x 10^12 dollars.
2% annual interest on $1T: 2 x 10^10 dollars.
Interest per Taxpayer: $89 per year.
Interest on $25T: $2225 per taxpayer per year. Raise it to 5%, so we can pay it back, it is $5555.
Is that within the realm of affordability? YES. It would also be painful, and I am not suggesting we do that, and I am not engineering a loan from Saudi Arabia or China, I am making the point that the hysteria surrounding a $3T or $5T debt is overblown and fantasy based.
Rounding up, the interest we must pay per trillion dollars borrowed is on the order of $100 per year per taxpayer. That may suck, but it isn't going to bankrupt the country and it isn't going to drive us into third world status.
That is my point. We can afford whatever level of debt is necessary. Now point out where this math is wrong, or go hyperventilate about it. Tear your hair out. It is comical.
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Nate:
Are you really not going to correct the blatant falsehood that Republicans can cast a vote in a Democratic primary in California?
You're entitled to your opinion on DiFi's motive, although as someone who has followed Democratic politics for years in this state I believe you are dead wrong on the political dynamic. But you're not entitled to your own facts, and that's simply not true. Why not just correct the record and get it over with?
Are you really not going to correct the blatant falsehood......Why not just correct the record and get it over with?
Because he hasn't noticed the correction. Not because he's deliberately lying..
Do you really think Nate scrolls through these marathon bickering sessions and p*ssing contests between bored students and civil servants pretending they're steel workers with unusually academic vocabularies?
I'm a steelworker, USW 6787. Some how I'm suppose to have an inferior education, lol.
People tend to look down on us blue collar types. It kind of ties to this legislation. Conservatives think we don't deserve representation, or a contract, or be allowed to bargain collectively for our labor.
Tony C.,
Your entire Whole Foods, Gortex and Google argument makes sense
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.
.
.
.
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for such companies.
However, there are other companies and jobs that that type of compensation would not work.
Industries such as mineral extraction (such as coal mining), those who work in steel mills and foundries, construction, assembly line work, etc.
Let's take coal mining as one example. One of the purposes of a union contract is for the safety of the miners. Through the union, the workers can present a united front in making sure that the mine management takes effective measures to minimize the risk of cave-ins; effective ventilation to prevent asphyxiation from poison gases; proper equipment in the form of respirators to minimize black lung disease; etc. Unions were also important to breaking up 'the company store' that was almost universal in mining communities prior to the unionization of the coal fields.
Don't argue that it is the function of the Department of Labor through the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, or the Mine Safety and Health Administration to protect the workers. It is the function of those agencies. But then look at how the Ronnie Ray-gun and both Bush administrations tried to make a shell of, if not totally eliminate, those departments.
I'm a steelworker, USW 6787. Some how I'm suppose to have an inferior education, lol.
I didn't say inferior education, I said less academic vocabulary, which you can take as a compliment.
That's if you really are a steel worker, and not, as I suspect, a philosophy grad currently working as a paralegal for the Boston Redevelopment Authority.
@Mike In Maryland:
Don't argue that it is the function of the Department of Labor through the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, or the Mine Safety and Health Administration to protect the workers.
I don't argue that for a minute. I'm on your side, if corporate management adopts an adversarial role with workers, unions are the answer, and in cases where worker safety is involved, unions should be given some kind of fast track access to special prosecutors and investigations.
That said, the reason I chose those models; groceries (Whole Foods), industrial fabrication (Gore Tex Fabrics) and software/IP (Google) is because they span the gamut from low margin, low tech to high margin, high tech.
At Gore Tex they also must worry about OSHA and worker safety (albeit not to the extent of factories caving in.) There are regulations to follow and teams must comply.
I don't know the mining industry, but it seems to me if the mine owners measured all worker productivity, and split 50% of the mine net profits off to individual workers as productivity bonuses, unions might be less prevalent there.
Gore Tex (founded by a research chemist decades ago, and now with tens of thousands of employees) implements another weird innovation they swear by: Bottom up democratic management. Every team selects its own team leader; the team leaders select their factory manager, and the factory managers select the CEO. The leaders are there to serve and represent their electors, and any leader can be replaced at any time by majority vote of their electors, including the CEO. Their current CEO worked her way up, over fifteen years, from being a machine operator.
No leader has the right to fire anybody; only teams have the right to fire team members. No employee can be ordered to do any job, all work is voluntary (but remember, pay is based on your productivity as determined by your team.) All meetings are voluntary and open to any employee, top to bottom.
Gore's idea in Gore Tex was to engineer a mechanism that avoided formal partnership but captured the essence of partnership. As we scientists do, he tested the simple answer first, and found out it works great: Gore Tex employees are like business partners, self-directed, self-managed, and entitled to half the net profits they generate.
Work-for-profit is key; fixed salaries do not motivate work, even when high. People get used to them. If they can't earn more by working harder, they choose the only other obvious optimization they can deploy: Try to work less for the same money!
It is that effort that creates friction and lack of cooperation, fraud, goofing off, cutting corners, misuse of funds (those $10,000 trash cans are a source of psychic profit) and wasted time.
Gore Tex, Google, Semtec and Whole Foods and others have all found the obvious: People will put in long hours of solid work if they feel like partners and get rewarded like partners.
I know a mine has special overheads they require for safety and robust insurance and health care benefits. But I find it hard to believe, if the damn mine is profitable, that an organizational model based on making workers equal profit partners with investors, and with the right to refuse work they feel is unsafe, would fail to deliver higher productivity, safety, innovation and profit.
I believe this is true of any business, and in the long term makes a business more profitable and more stable than the common alternative. I think as the information revolution proceeds, business will evolve away from the old Industrial Revolution model. The partnership businesses outperform their traditional competitors on every metric, including profits. Give us a century or so and we will bury them.
But certainly in this transition period of the next hundred years, traditional owners have the right to adopt an adversarial stance with employees if they so choose; and in those circumstances employees should have the right to protect themselves and get a fair share of profits with unions. They aren't the ideal solution, but they are better than blatant exploitation.
I think the reason why Feinstein is not supportive of the EFCA is very simple. The only reason why she's a Democrat and at all friendly to labor is that she's from San Francisco. If she was from anywhere else she'd be a Republican. As far as I can tell, when push has come to shove she always supported business over labor.
Feinstein has always been and will always be only interested in what will get her the most political power. There is NEVER any other consideration in her palsied old brain. She is a hypocrite most vile, attempting to ban handguns while carrying one herself. I hope she chokes the day after a Democrat takes office in Sacramento.
Feinstein (and Boxer) have long been sleazy corporatists in liberals' clothing – being only as liberal as need be to keep being re-elected while not pissing off her corporate backers. See Feinstein's wiki page to see some of what she'd been up to as Mayor of San Francisco:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianne_Feinstein
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