Well, not in those words.
Still, Barack Obama’s comments to regional newspapers last night and the premise of a question and follow-up today at the White House gets to the heart of the current national political situation.
Here’s the quick play-by-play. Robert Gibbs was asked about yesterday’s interview in which the President said congressional Republicans needed to do more than just say no, they needed to present alternatives on the budget and economic recovery in general. The question was, congressional Republicans gave Obama a list in January that Obama said didn’t have "anything crazy" on it, so how come those ideas didn’t make it into the stimulus?
Gibbs replied that some Republican ideas were incorporated. He then pivoted to the budget discussion, noting the sturm und drang over the deficit and debt was fundamentally dishonest:We have members of Congress rightly concerned about the growth of deficits and debt…. If they're concerned about the deficit, the best way to exercise that concern, if you're critical of what the administration has proposed, would be to come up with… an honest budgeting document that pays for both wars, that pays -- takes into account natural disasters, or future money for economic and financial stability -- and does so in a way that demonstrates clearly for the American people that you're putting this country back on a path towards fiscal responsibility and fiscal sustainability.
(emphasis added)
The follow-up question was, if some Republican ideas were incorporated, how can the President say the Republican Party is a party of no ideas?
Gibbs replied, “you've heard certainly recently a lot more criticism than you've heard suggestions.”
Let's unpack the back and forth. Obama didn’t say “the Republican Party is a party of no ideas.” Something like that would have made major headlines. Here’s what Obama said, as quoted by the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel: Opposition is always easy. Saying no to something is easy. Saying yes to something and figuring out how to solve problems and governing, that's hard…. I'm not impressed by just being able to say no…. I think what will be interesting is the degree to which my Republican colleagues start putting forward an affirmative agenda that's not based on ideology but on the very real struggles and pain that people are feeling right now around the country and how do we get this economy back on its feet.
So, yes, Obama clearly called out Republicans for taking the easy road. It’s a little different than saying Republicans are the party of no ideas. Obama could be taken to mean that he thinks Republicans have ideas, but aren't sharing them.
Of course, the reason Gibbs didn’t push back on the inaccurate conflation and accepted the premise – that Obama had labeled the Republicans thusly – is likely that the White House isn’t all that concerned with the semantics and feels on comfortable ground with the American public as to this question.
And frankly, they’re correct to feel that way. A Newsweek poll, released last week, showed that even Republican voters don’t particularly think their party has ideas. On the question, “Is it your impression that Republicans who have opposed Barack Obama’s economic proposals have a plan of their own for turning the economy around, or not?” Republican respondents reported 45% yes, 42% no, 13% don’t know. Only 22% of Dems and 29% of independents thought Republicans had their own plan. Moreover, by a 52-42 margin, the same Republican respondents thought Obama had “made a reasonable effort to work with and listen to Congressional Republicans.”
Still, the same reporter who set up the seeming gotcha – getting Gibbs to say that Republican ideas were incorporated in the stimulus and following up with the premise that therefore Republicans by definition can’t be a party of no ideas – had reported contemporaneously what was on the one-page sheet of ideas Eric Cantor handed Obama in January:
“Tax deductions for some small businesses, making unemployment benefits tax free and a provision that would let businesses losing money carry the losses over to pay fewer taxes in a different fiscal year.”
That’s the party of ideas? That’s the gotcha? Obama calls out Republicans for just saying no on the budget and economic recovery debate, but he’s hypocritical for criticizing their lack of contribution because he received a summary sheet seven weeks ago that included the proposal of a few small business tax deductions?
The same summary-sheet-delivering Cantor said, only three days ago to the Washington Post: “What transpired . . . and will give us a shot in the arm going forward is that we are standing up on principle and just saying no."
What’s going on here is that the White House sees the polls like everyone else, and isn’t particularly worried whether it’s an open question whether Republicans are seen as the party of no. Republicans themselves are about evenly split on this and nobody else is conflicted. That Republicans are the party of no is in the nation’s bloodstream already (you can always tell by the late night monologues), its leaders are explicitly embracing that strategy, and the emboldened White House is seizing on the opportunity for reinforcement.
Herman Melville wrote a short story called “Bartleby, the Scrivener” in 1853. The signature element of that story is that Bartleby is hired to do office work, and fairly quickly begins answering all requests by his employer with the simple, all-time passive-aggressive manifesto: “I would prefer not to.” No matter what is asked, “I would prefer not to.” No reasoning is offered, and the story is told through the eyes of the bewildered employer.
Bartleby refuses to perform any duties and refuses to leave. Eventually, the employer moves his entire business, and Bartleby stays in the old office. The new tenants can’t get Bartleby to leave, eventually he is hauled to prison for refusing to vacate, and ultimately Bartleby dies from preferring not to eat.
The current passive-aggressive stance of the Republican Party isn’t likely as pure as Bartleby’s. Readers only get a few clues but no explanation from Bartleby himself as to why he behaves as he does, while the GOP seems to calculate a long-term strategic upside to refusing to participate with Obama. Regardless of different motivations for passive-aggression, that behavior seems likely to generate about the same result for the Republican brand as Bartleby’s did for himself for as long as it is pursued.
To paraphrase a modern literary giant who contended with his own group of nihilists, “This (passive) aggression will not stand, man.”
3.12.2009
White House to Passive-Aggressive Hill Republicans: Put Up or Shut Up
by Sean Quinn @ 7:54 PM...see also budget, messaging, white house
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62 comments
Sean and Nate, I love your site, and read it daily. The commentary and analysis is top-notch.
But you really, really need to invest in a copyeditor, or at least check your writing before posting. It seems like every story has a missing word or a transposed phrase or something else that detracts from the quality of the post.
For instance:
"Robert Gibbs was asked about yesterday’s interview Obama in which the President said..."
"Yesterday's interview Obama"? Stuff like that. It casts an unprofessional glare on an otherwise stellar site.
The Party of No. Or, as I like to call them, the RepubliCAN'T Party.
What's really sad is that the country obviously doesn't come first with these characters - scoring supposed political points comes first.
Personally, I think they are convinced that people are too stupid to understand the facts, and that therefore they can continue to bamboozle us just like they have for the last eight years.
Good luck with that....
and that closing line is one of the many, many reasons why this site is so phenomenal.
They will have something soon
http://www.thenextright.com/bryan-pick/the-republican-strategy-on-the-budget
Cheers
Jeez is this lame. Are you guys so in the tank for Obama that you have to defensively parse the press secretary's comments at this length. God forbid the fool who spends his time distracting attention from terrible policy by attacking radio hosts might get a "gotcha" question. Robert Gibbs deserves only the most high minded questions, I suppose? At least he speaks without a teleprompter (unlike our "genius" President).
By the way, it is far more troubling that Obama himself has no policy ideas. Just a bunch of money to fund Nancy's Pelosi's.
Right now the Republicans aren't much into new ideas, even from their Chairman.
See, if Steele had the mad skillz he might just pull off a coherent "I'm pro-life but I'm for doing that within the spirit of the existing SCOTUS Constitutional rulings and without obstructing other's choice". Like that Democrat in Kansas (?) did at that Rotary meeting. Darn, I forget his name I saw it on YouTube. Stirring stuff, very compassionate. That's the kind of mindset Republican leadership needs to get into if they expect to heal their party, reversing their trend of running hard from "Big Tent" to "pup tent".
But Steele, while he's got at least this one idea clunking around his head, and probably even a few others, doesn't have the chops to pull it off.
Can I just say–I've been reading this site pretty regularly since about September, and enjoying it for just as long, but I don't think I was totally won over and inspired until I read an article that quoted Melville and Jeff Lebowksi and did so to tremendous rhetoric effect.
The Republicans have plenty of ideas, if you mean theories and philosophical positions. What they need, and what they weren't all that good at even when they were in the majority, is to develop credible, successful APPLICATIONS of those ideas.
It's like they've created a really conceptually brilliant programming language, but all the applications they've written with it have been weird, useless, bug-ridden, or malware.
But you know, at least there were Republican Senators willing to talk about what to do with banks and using the "nationalization" to do it. Credit where credit is due for hanging themselves out there, giving up that potential "he's a socialist trying to nationalize things" gambit.
The Dude abides.
@nova_middle_man
"I just hope that’s not all they have in their playbook."
Then the first commenter really gets down to some of the brass tacks about some of the reasons why the Republican party as a whole isn't really about, hasn't been about ever in my living memory, the party of "spend less". They can agree on the "tax less" but just don't have the guts on the second part. "Don't tax but spend" is a FAIL, far worse than "tax and spend". :/
Hey, now. Kudos where they're due: I'm pretty sure the Dude was quoting Bush I. :)
Sean, this will work about as well as the "Price Is Right" strategy.
Over the last 30 years, when the Parties of Yes and No have run against each other, the Party of No has won almost every time. When Ronald Reagan ran against the liberal Democratic Congress and Carter, he was running as the Party of No. A cheerful, chipper No, but still No. The Democrats retook effective control of the House in '82 and the Senate in '86 as reactions to Reagan- as the Party of No.
Bill Clinton's election in 1992 was one of the feew recent wins by the Party of Yes, because he had big plans when he came into office- only to be swamped by the Gingrich Party of No. When Gingrich overreached, Clinton told him No and won re-election.
The Shrub and Barry both won office with vague plans, but were clear about saying No to their parties' perceived establishments and then No to the party in power. (Bush's re-election in 2004 was another rare win by the Party of Yes, but Nancy 'No' Pelosi and Harry 'No' Reid won Congress in 2006.)
In short, the Republicans are adopting a plan that has worked well for both parties over the lst generation, and will probably do so again.
The Shrub and Barry both won office with vague plans, but were clear about saying No to their parties' perceived establishments and then No to the party in power. (Bush's re-election in 2004 was another rare win by the Party of Yes, but Nancy 'No' Pelosi and Harry 'No' Reid won Congress in 2006.)
Woah... The guy who ran under the slogan "Yes we can," ran by saying "No" to his party establishment? How so?
How about McCrypt Keeper feigning outrage and grandstanding on the senate floor over the pork fiends in both parties...mostly his own, including his bosom buddie Lindsay Graham. Talk about a piss-poor loser. Along with his braindead dateless daughter and the Wasilla Hillbillies, a Martial Law imposed third Bush-Cheney term wouldn't have been half as horrific as the 2008 GOP ticket getting in.
At least Cindy has shown some dignity in defeat. I haven't seen much of her lately. Perhaps she's busy giving lapdances to the Arizona high school football team.
Don't forget the subtitle of Bartleby: "A Story of Wall Street."
Mason: I think Brian meant that Obama ran a "No" strategy against Bush's policies and the way politics were conducted.
But I'm kind of half and half on his conclusion, you know? Not only did Bush and Clinton say no, didn't they articulate their own plans for America? Didn't Obama articulate his own plans in the form of a document on his campaign site AND repeatedly in the press?
McCain himself said no, didn't he? He was supposed to be the Maverick! The anti-Republican Republican! He wasn't as slick as Romney (and certainly didn't look at his poll numbers for approval on everything), but dammit, he was gonna SHAKE UP Washington's establishment. Whatever that was.
I think that, to take a less dim view of things...Americans aren't as afraid of change as the Republicans like to say we are. Well, maybe not that - I think it's more that we're not that tolerant of inertia, and campaigns that tend to be all, "Everything is okay! ^_^" don't really work. (Yes, with the anime-style emoticon.)
On the flip side, angry campaigns that are like, "EVERYTHING IS WRONG EVER" don't work - see Edwards, John. Populist rage only goes so far, I like to think, and if you're just rejecting everything automatically - especially when it's unproven - it's not going to work.
Perhaps I'm underestimating the Republicans. (Some here may say that "it is never possible to underestimate the stupid, smelly Rethuglicans," but I like to have faith in the current opposition party.) But they seem to be just saying "no" to everything because Republican orthodoxy SAYS to say no without making any meaningful contribution.
In effect, the Republicans seem to be marginalizing themselves just to be obnoxious. Which may work in parliaments the style of the UK's or Israel's, but doesn't quite fly here due to the way our legislative bodies are styled.
But I'm kind of half and half on his conclusion, you know? Not only did Bush and Clinton say no, didn't they articulate their own plans for America? Didn't Obama articulate his own plans in the form of a document on his campaign site AND repeatedly in the press?
So what you're saying is:
BHO: "No, lets do it like this, instead."
JSMc: "No to the current regime and no to that guy!"
Obama did what he always does (and Sean parrots him admirably) – he mischaracterizes his opposition’s positions then argues strenuously against them, his righteousness as self-evident as he is earnest, rolling his eyes even at the appropriate moments. His opposition is so stupid.
But of course Obama is battling a phantom, a straw man. Where once I had found his rhetoric appealing at least in a sonorous sense, his delivery as close to flawless as I had ever had the pleasure to hear on a regular basis, better even than Ronald Reagan (though to me lacking Reagan’s sincerity), I now smirk at his cheap use of oratorical trickery and the utter vacuity of most of what he says, especially when talking economics, a discipline of which he has had no academic experience (let’s see those Columbia transcripts!) and certainly no real world exposure, as in say a job in business.
That the people go along with it and are supportive of what he is doing is not surprising; it is sad.
Obama commands attention. If you Libs thought critically about it, you would want him to elevate the discourse, reach out and convince us by educating us why his Grand Progressive Vision is so much better for us than “the Culture of Greed and Irresponsibility We Have Lived in For Far Too Long” (an Obama sound bite, I am certain of it).
Instead he uses rhetorical techniques long exposed as misleading and manipulative to advance more his political agenda than his governance agenda. It is as if he thinks as long as he is politically popular he can do whatever he wants in terms of his progressive agenda and not be bothered with the hassle of really having to explain himself or engage in real debate, just debate against the afore-mentioned straw men. Obama has only the opponent he creates for himself to fight right now. He himself has made it clear the opposition has no leadership.
Do you see how he seeks to both stack the deck and deal from its bottom?
The slight of hand is to be expected, but Obama takes it to an art form and leaves us in such ignorance and without understanding of what he is really doing.
The Consent of the Governed, President. Obama!
Still, I don’t think the history of his Presidency is quite yet revealed. The success or failure of his economic actions (I won’t dignify them and call them a “Plan”) remain in doubt.
I understood that Obama needed to set dismal expectations since he had no intention of subverting his desire to implement his Left Wing Agenda to the needs of people to see the full measure of economic relief that his spending of their future treasure was meant to bring about. It will take long to get out of this. Next month this will already be the longest recession since the Great Depression. Unemployment will eventually peak over what Ronald Reagan dealt with in the early 80s. Obama will get the “greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression” that he has been talking about since his election.
But I did not get why he had to go full bore and wage war against business, the investor class and the so-called wealthily, which sweeps within it those modern day economic heroes: small business people. The rhetoric has been so over the top, rendered all the more extreme because this is the President of the United States talking to us during our honeymoon, degrading capitalism and risk-taking and snarling churlishly at all of our greed.
How shamed we must feel!
But more fearful. The business community knows that to Obama it is the problem not part of the solution. His stimulus has little (other than an $8/wk tax cut for those businessmen earning less than $250,000 (a couple)) to offer them. Very little traditional spending in relation to the size of the Bill and more importantly the size of the economic downturn. He promises them higher taxes on their business earnings and their investments. He has told them that their will be penalties for not providing health insurance. Energy is going to get more expense (taxes and prices are going up). His workers may form into a Union behind his back without any notice or ability to offer a counter argument.
It is not exactly sunshine on the horizon for business.
Call me a troll, say I blather, but you cannot argue that Obama has prolonged this recession and most likely deepened it because of his anti-business attitude. American business would be foolish to stick its head out of the foxhole right now.
This is only the short run forecast.
COMING SOON: Hyper-inflation and the Burden of Crushingly High Interest Rates!
(You can follow me now on Twitter: PeteKent01 -- Guaranteed no more than 140 characters!)
Nova,
I seriously doubt any effort led by Mike Pence will lead to a quality alternative. If he's considered a leader of the GOP, then they are as Nate has said in a "death spiral." The man is slightly to the right of Mussolini on the facist scale and is just plain nutty a disturbingly high amount of the time. He and Dan Burton are two absolute wingnuts from Indiana, and any proposal with Pence's stamp of approval will be DOA in Congress.
Similarly, the supposed criticisms of the budget do nothing but preach to the base. The small farmer/small business canard was beat to death by McCain et al in the campaign. It was shown for a lie then, didn't win McCain any votes in the end, but the GOP doesn't seem to get it. Its like they think a few more weeks of Joe the Twit would have carried the day. The straw man of bad for small business/farmers was very useful to the GOP on things like the estate tax fight a few years ago, but they've overplayed it to a point where no one who might be persuadable is listening - sort of like how no one in the middle listens to Al Sharpton anymore.
I assume, though, the GOP and Cantor are counting on further such playing to the base counterproductivity as their only way forward, hoping the economy stays bad long enough that it gives them a rebound as the party out of power (although not so bad that people start clamoring for more direct government aid). I understand its natural when you are down, but when you are down and out as far as the GOP is it seems you really need something new, not just a rehash of the playbook of the last 2 decades and a prayer the other guy screws up.
PeteKent,
Are you accusing Obama of being a politician, while using the same sorts of rhetorical tricks you feel rob him of all credibility?
It's as if no other president has ever spun information to his own advantage!
Truly, I now see the light.
And it is as black as a pot and a kettle.
Let me first echo Rhaomi's request for a copy editor. As a grammar fanatic, reading this site is downright painful.
Regarding the issue at hand, I think opposition to the majority agenda is the most sensible political strategy in a long term recessionary environment, regardless of party.
Even if the Obama administration does everything right, the economy is gonna be somewhere between bad and terrible by mid-2010. Better to be in a position to say, "told you these policies wouldn't work," even if there wasn't really any better option.
popping out of lurk mode to cheer and wave wildly at that closing line. just when i thought you couldn't surpass yourself!
let's go bowling :-)
The Consent of the Governed, President. Obama!
*sound of penny loafers on hardwood approaching at a walking pace*
*sound of throat clearing*
In honor of March Madness:
SCOREBOARD!
That is all.
*sound of penny loafers on hardwood retreating at a walking pace*
I just want my rug back.
That rug really tied the room together.
I'm cracking up.
BTW Jeff Bridges said that character was more like him than any others he'd played. Genius.
So, I know the Republicans are very white with few Chinamen, but can we assume they are rug-pissers?
No, they're they Nihilists. David Brooks said so.
Beat me to it, M.
Asian Americans, please.
We must dare to keep kids off rugs. These big babies (the anarchists in question) don't get it about playing nice. Ask them to share 3% more of their candy and they piss all over everything and threaten to go Galt on you.
Will the real adults pleas stand up?
please!
The problem isn't that the republicans have no ideas. They have lots of ideas. The problem is their ideas are wrong. It's like somebody who has the idea that the world is flat. It's an *idea*--it could even be diagrammed on a whiteboard with some seemingly decent arguments to back it up ("Ever been to the middle of America and stand in a cornfield? Man, is that ever flat!")--it's just that the idea is wrong. It's a *bad idea*. The republican set of ideas (and it's a remarkably small set--basically the same supply side crap over and over again, along with "shrinking government" [unless it has something to do with shooting people]) doesn't work if put into practice, and they can't claim it works because we've tried it for far too many years already. Want to conduct an experiment on downsizing government? Oh, right, Katrina response, financial oversight meltdown, tainted peanut-butter inspection meltdown, etc. etc. etc. Whenever a republican says they have an idea, the proper response is that they have a bad idea that won't work, and then gently lead them out of the room so the big people can concentrate on putting the country back together.
Funny how the Dubyistas claimed the adults were finally in charge when they took over from Clinton.
Curious and off topic...but...WHAT IS WITH THE SARAH PALIN ads on this site?
gooooooood morning Americans !
I found this:
http://www.bushtruthcommission.com/
What do you think ?
good move ?
not good ?
bye.
Chris said...
Curious and off topic...but...WHAT IS WITH THE SARAH PALIN ads on this site?
March 13, 2009 1:50 AM
**********
It is useful to remind you the danger you risked.
RE: Truth and Reconciliation Commission
I doubt there is much stomach for that in the country. The trouble is that it would probably stir up more shit than it would settle. Yes, Bush and his cronies ought to be called to account, but do we want to do it with hearings and courts, or let history wield the condemning hand? I vote for the latter, although this robs us all of the sense of vengeance a T&R commission might immediately supply. History won't be kind to the Shrub though, in fact he's already set a pretty high bar for Worst President of the 21st Century. Take some comfort in that at least.
Another note, then I'm done for the night--
I was taken aback seeing Sarah Palin on this site, but then I thought--bring her on. She did more to defeat the Republican ticket than perhaps any other single person. She is an emblem of what is dividing the GOP, and will keep it embedded in irrelevancy for years to come. For every GOOPer that gets encouragement out of her, there's at least one (probably more) who cringe. So the more the nation sees of her the better.
I sort of like the idea. While I'd love to see Cheney jailed, for instance, there are a lot of lower echelon co-conspirators whose immunity might yield good information.
My understanding is that T&R is a less prosecutorial path than others, and would involve more grantings of immunity than justice would call for.
The sheer amount of slime that the Dubyistas generated needs to come to light, and I don't think there's much will to prosecute every perjuror, blackmailer, fraud, embezzler, bribe taker, intelligence falsifier, vote rigger, swindler, shill, assassin, or terrorist from the Bush administration. As much as the blood of Bush's victims cries out for justice, truth may be all we can get, if that.
I can't even think about this stuff. It hurts.
Tax the porn in Provo!
Tax pot!
Just as the end to prohibition helped us out of the Depression, the end to pot prohibition (and a little help from a tax on all the porn those Mormons are consuming like the Fruit Loops and candy they also consume; sugar is their officially sanctioned vice), we'll be out of this recession in no time!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/29645128#29646121
"Spankin' it in Provo! Spankin' it in Provo!
du-nuh du-nuh...
Spankin' it in Provo! Spankin' it in Provo!
nah-nah, nah-nah..."
First of all: Every time I think that I'm wordy, PeteKent has to show up and surpass me.
Dude. When I'm looking at stuff and going "tl;dr," you might want to cut it down a bit.
That said re Mason:
So what you're saying is:
BHO: "No, lets do it like this, instead."
JSMc: "No to the current regime and no to that one!"
Fixed it for you. ;)
But yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying. Though in quite a few more words.
And I'm out. (I should also note that I'm not the Chris asking about the SP ads.)
@ThePeat
Hey, now. Kudos where they're due: I'm pretty sure the Dude was quoting Bush I. :)
Correct. As with other one-lines the Dude adopts throughout the movie, "This aggression will not stand" is not an invention of his own. He sees Bush uttering it to the Iraqis on a television screen in a supermarket right at the beginning of the movie.
There was a point in UK politics when the Conservative party became the Opposition that they were essentially the Party of No. Throughout the reigns of William Hague, Ian Duncan Smith and Michael Howard as party leader, their plan appeared to be to object to everything Labour did and wait until the public got sick of the current party in power. I often thought that they could have saved time at Prime Minister's Questions every week by putting up a sign reading "Whatever the Government is proposing is unrealistic and wrong unless it's popular or already been shown to work, in which case we would have implemented it sooner and at lower cost." For years, that was the gist of their contribution to national politics.
At least David Cameron seems to "get it" that the way to win the public is not just to wait until everyone hates the other guys more than they hate you, but rather to offer an actual alternative platform or plan that people could envision following. I still wouldn't vote Conservative (I'm more a Lib Dem kind of guy) but even I can see that Cameron is dragging his party kicking and screaming into 21st century political discourse. Perhaps the Republicans could stand to learn a thing or two from the UK.
Or, to put it another way:
Man: An argument isn't just contradiction.
Arguer: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't.
Gyrate, Cameron and the Tories lead in the polls for one reason and one reason only: They're not Labour and Gordon Brown. Anything Cameron says is incidental.
Mason, when Barry said, "Yes, we can," that really was a disguised No, just like Reagan's. Yes, we can... what? Barry had no answer then and has none now.
The Party of No usually wins because people don't really know what they want, but they have a really good idea of what they don't want.
Congratulations. The echo chamber wins
There is no point in commenting on any of Seans posts
Nate, Is this what you want. The quality of comments on this thread is pathetic.
Brian: And I think that's a pretty damned cynical view. (Though I'm not familiar with UK politics - I'm pretty sure that they're not binary like US politics seems to be.) Though, I can't help but think that part of it is due to your personal dislike of Obama...
Gyrate: Now, I am interested - because, as I understand it, the Opposition is supposed to try and cockblock everything. (Well, that's the quick primer I got from the entire Canada debacle back in December that ended when the kitten hugger finally went to the nice Hatian lady and made her pierogi - err, prorogue - Parliament.) Wasn't that the Conservatives' job - to say no to everything? (Just as it would be the Liberals' job in Canada to say no to everything?)
I can see your point when taken from a campaign perspective (after all, you want the majority to come up with legislation instead of sitting on their hands), but when legislating? Yeah.
I don't know. I think I'm idealizing a BIT, but I think the US system is more designed for compromise (actual results notwithstanding - HI RUSH AND PUPPY-LOVER) than Westminster and other parliamentary systems.
tl;dr - But...I thought the Conservatives were supposed to be the Party of No, given their role. I'd like to hear more, though, as I only have a vague understanding of all this Westminster stuff, being American. (As I understand it, the MPs - some sort of music files - all get together with the Prime Minister (who strangely doesn't wear a collar or carry around a cross) in a house full of commons (whatever a common is - I thought that was an adjective, but you Brits are weird) and do stuff and the Queen doesn't do anything except if like they're out of tea and crumpets or some other national emergency like that.)
Also - yes, I called Stephen Harper "kitten hugger." I think he should meet Michael Steele someday. They seem to have quite a few things in common.
Brian,
Don't get me wrong - I'm not remotely suggesting that Cameron has any sort of political charisma. What I'm saying is that he at least understands that politics has changed since they were last in power, something which many in his party still haven't grasped.
The rise of New Labour occurred in part as a rejection of Thatcherism but also because Labour had been purged (John Prescott excepting) of the old Labour way of thinking. Cameron is trying to create a New Tory party...but substantive change is much harder when you're the party of the status quo.
Chris - well yes, the Opposition are, by definition, supposed to oppose. But as the Monty Python sketch was intended to suggest, there's opposition by presenting an alternative and then there's just being contrary. The latter is far easier, but the former is what gets you voters (assuming your alternative is attractive, of course).
Obama could have campaigned entirely on a "vote for me - I'm not Bush" platform but that only gets you so far (as John Kerry learned, to his cost). He also offered an alternative - a mix of actual promises and touchy-feely ("Yes we can!") stuff that people could buy in to. And they did. Cameron needs to do the same.
(Although, to be honest, I'd be even happier if the Lib Dems did it instead. Talk about a party that has perfected the circular firing squad...)
Well, I don't know anything about UK politics. I know a little about Canadian politics, though, and they also use the Westminster system, so I guess if we're comparing the Westminster system to ours, I can talk about that a little.
Canadian (Westminster) system vs American system:
Pros: The PM is simply the party leader with the most seats in the lower chamber. Since there are four parties with seats in the Commons, you can have a minority government- where the PM represents a party with less than 50% of the total seats. Further, if a coalition of opposition parties forms, this coalition of parties can form a government providing they hold more seats in the lower chamber than the incumbent party.
Imagine if we had multiple parties with seats in the House-say, if the Libertarians and the Greens had seated Members of Congress. And imagine the coalitions that could arise from that-the Republicans, if they tried to ally with the Libs, would have to back off from intruding in personal lives (thus ending the War on Drugs), the Dems could ally with the Libs if they agreed to adopt more of a civil libertarian position (end the warantless wiretap), the Democrats could align with the Greens if they took a more eco-friendly approach (carbon tax), all sorts of combinations could result in good policy becoming politically viable as extremist elements within any party are attenuated by the coalition formed with other parties.
The lower chamber can also call an election at any time via a no-confidence vote.
Imagine if we could have ousted Bush in 2005 right after Katrina.
Cons: The upper chamber is a non-elected body whose members are appointed for life by the sitting PM.
This is bullshit of the lowest order. A lifelong appointment to the Senate? Fuck that. Unelected Senators? Very anti-democratic. I'm kinda shocked that Canada allows this nonsense.
Another con: The Pm is the head of government, not the head of state. The head of state is the Governor-General. While primarily a figurehead, this person can 'prorogue' Parliament-meaning, if the folks int he Commons are getting ready to do something the PM doesn't like, she can furlough the lot of them until a set date. They all go home, no legislation gets passed, the Parliament is effectively neutered.
The GC has other powers I don't understand, but seems to mostly occupy a figurehead role when s/he isn't interferri8ng with the elected officials and their ability to govern. Mostly, she gets to do all the fun stuff-meeting with foreign dignitaries, representing Canada to the world, and living in lavish digs with a hefty salary-without any of the messy stuff like governing. Not sure I would want to separate the Head of Government from the Head of State.
Other distinctions: In the US, the three levels of government are very distinct: certain powers are only for the Feds, others only for the States. In Canada, it seems like the distinction is a little more vague, with the national government playing a stronger role at the provincial level than our feds do at the state level.
That's my perspective on our Neighbors to the North from a guy in the Deep South. Lotsa love for you snow birds that come down from Quebéc and boost our tourism industry-the most well-behaved and genuinely nice tourists always come from Canada, and its always a pleasure to have you folks for guests. Even if the 'Newfie' accent is a little hard to understand.
The UK, I know nothing about.
Cons: The upper chamber is a non-elected body whose members are appointed for life by the sitting PM.
This is bullshit of the lowest order. A lifelong appointment to the Senate? Fuck that. Unelected Senators? Very anti-democratic. I'm kinda shocked that Canada allows this nonsense.
It's worse than that. There is a loophole that allows the PM to create new seats in the Senate effectively at will to get a piece of legislation through it. In my lifetime that's only happened once with Brian Malroney (Progressive Conservative PM) to get the Free Trade agreement with the US ratified. It doesn't get used much, and that was long enough ago that it's mostly faded in people's memories. I'm not sure it had ever been used before, though I think it had, because it's a political nuclear strike.
I will say though that a EEE senate is movement, especially in Western Canada, that's been afoot for some time. That Equal, Effective, Elected and there have even been Senators "elected" in provincial elections and put forth as nominations. That was in Alberta, the heart of the EEE movement ... because we've got so much damn oil money compared to population, and the politics don't [yet] match up with the rest of Canada.
That all said it isn't entirely unlike SCOTUS members being appointed. Appointments aren't entirely "undemocratic". Plus the powers of the Senate in Canada isn't nearly the same as the US Senate. They are mostly advocates-at-large, and it is VERY rare that they'll block a Bill. For legislation they are mostly sort of like high-end clerks, making sure the Bill makes sense, marking it up and sending it back to the House of Commons to refinement if necessary.
OH, and on the Governor General, yes that is largely a figurehead. If she ever really pushed out the powers she has it'd create a constitutional crisis and we'd dump the monarchy outright. *shrug*
We are a Constitution Monarchy in that sense but in practice effectively a full democracy.
Mostly we are much less confrontational than in the US. That's why it works. The GG is just sort of a procedural grease for the wheels.
So Nova, you're the poster of no, now?
Didn't you like TBL?
Well, I'm not going to lie...I was partially playing dumb. (I learned quite a bit about Westminster when the crisis with the Libs, NDP, and BQ threatening to form a coalition after the Conservatives tried to shaft the other parties' funding last winter.)
Dwight re: Canada's Senate - that's the other thing. I thought that the fact that Canada's senators are weaker than America's counterbalanced the fact that they were for-life appointments and could be expanded at will. Isn't it the House of Commons that pretty much writes and passes legislation?
At least you (if you're from Canada) have the opposite problem of us in the States. Legally right now, we're stuck with 435 Representatives - so people like me (from New Jersey) get drowned out by people from Wyoming in the EC. My vote counted about 1/3 as much as a Wyomingite's this past general election. And even in the House, Wyoming's at-large senator represents a "district" 30% smaller than mine, but has an equal vote to my Representative. Under the Wyoming Rule - where House districts are calibrated to the least populated state's population - there would be (I think) 569 House seats. New Jersey would end up with...I think 16 or 17 seats, up from its current 13. California would end up with ~65 seats, and New York and Texas would have ~40-45 each, I think.
(Of course, I also believe you guys have some screwed-up ridings, like ones with 30k people and then ones with 100k. So.)
Anyway.
Though I must admit, parliamentary politics is fun to watch because it sounds so dramatic. I mean, y'all get constitutional crises and dissolve your governments and form new governments all the time. I mean...we do the same thing, but the process just sounds so banal the way we talk about it.
I mean, if the US ever had a constitutional crisis and our government collapsed, it'd probably be the Apocalypse. In Canada, they just roll out of bed, pour milk out of a bag over their maple syrup cereal or something, and act like nothing happened.
...okay, I'll stop with the "obnoxious American stereotyping foreign countries" act now.
Dwight,
There is a fundamental difference between the legislature and the judiciary. They serve very different roles-the judiciary does not create new legislation, for example, and merely tests it for validity, striking down the invalid and reaffirming the valid. Hence the scales that are used to represent the profession.
That's something you want to exist independent of public opinion, as a check against mob rule. A lifelong term makes sense here.
Appointment is not something I like, but election in terms of the judiciary strikes me as only nominally better. I can't think of a better way to do it, although I see serious flaws in both.
The legislature should be elected, strictly speaking, and have limited terms. They create new legislation, and as such wield considerable power-while SCOTUS cannot weave something out of whole cloth, Congress can and does as part of its duties.
The Congress was originally the whole of the American government under our original body of law, the Articles of Confederation. There was no executive branch back then, and the whole of the Congress was considered the Head of State-foreign dignitaries wishing to come to the US for diplomatic missions didn't go to the President-there was no President-they went to Congress, the entire assembled body.
With the Constitution came the Executive Branch, and the Legislative Branch was initially intended to be superior to the Executive Branch-our first Presidents treated the Executive Office's mission as carrying out the will of Congress. The Supreme Court isn't even mentioned in the Constitution, and it wasn't until 16 years after the Constitution was ratified and became the law of the land that SCOTUS gained the power of Judicial Review.
Thus, you can see that the Congress has always been intended to be the most powerful part of our government. Our Senate was initially unelected too, although even then it was not a Presidential appointment nor was it lifelong. Such a thing would be disastrous-it would allow the Executive Branch to manipulate the Legislative through appointments that would allow a President's grip on power to remain in effect for the lifespan of the Senators, far longer than their term of office.
So no, I don't think that all appointments are the same, and equivocating the SCOTUS's appointments with your Senate's is bullshit.
This comes from a great admirer of your country that sees Canada as the US's greatest ally and most important friend worldwide, so don't take it personally. One of the more novel things about living in New Orleans is that we get tourists who come here to volunteer and fix up the wreckage left by the 2005 storms. There are a large number of Canadians that come down here, driving all the way from Toronto and Montréal and places I've never even heard of to help my city get back on its feet. And our local economy greatly appreciates your coming here to party, too. I have a deep and abiding respect for your country, even though I don't understand why you elected a robot like Harper to be your PM. Sure Dion looked a little funny and he didn't speak English all that well, but Harper? I swear, one of these days they're gonna find the on/off switch on the back of that man's head.
Mason, when Barry said, "Yes, we can," that really was a disguised No, just like Reagan's. Yes, we can... what? Barry had no answer then and has none now.
So what were all those speeches laying out policy goals and objectives?
And who the heck is Barry? The councilman from Ward 8?
Hooray Marion Barry! Councilman Crackead to the rescue!
Republicans...such easy targets...
comic strip
"...no explanation from Bartleby himself as to why he behaves as he does, while the GOP seems to calculate a long-term strategic upside to refusing to participate with Obama..."
And since Obama's philosophical position is sound -- supported by more professional economists than the Republican CNBC-Bartleby philosophical position -- one can be fairly confident that this is a MIS-calculation on the part of the GOP, and that's it's only a matter of time before the poverty of their philosophy is rendered unmistakably clear.
Statler N Waldorf said...
The Supreme Court isn't even mentioned in the Constitution, and it wasn't until 16 years after the Constitution was ratified and became the law of the land that SCOTUS gained the power of Judicial Review.
Statler,
I think you need to check Article III of the Constitution. The first words of Article III state:
"The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court. . . ."
The Supreme Court has been there since the Constitution was proposed in 1787, ratified in 1788 (June 21, 1788 when New Hampshire was the ninth state to ratify it), and from the date when it became effective March 4, 1789.
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