Looking at the performance of the stock market offers both promise and peril in providing insight into the future direction of the economy. The promise comes because the market, in a fundamental sense, ought to reflect anticipated future profits of a wide array of publicly-traded large and midsize businesses. All else being equal, these companies can be expected to earn more money in good times than in bad, and therefore economic expectations will be reflected in their share prices.
The peril comes because the market will also pick up a whole host of other things that aren't particularly relevant to the well-being of the economy as a whole. For example:
1. The anticipated tax treatment of stock market investments (and personal income in general);
2. The market's risk tolerance;
3. Anticipation about the degree of public spending as a proportion of GDP. If the government provides services that could potentially be provided by the private sector, this will lower aggregate corporate earnings (and therefore stock prices), whether or not it is beneficial to the economy as a whole;
4. The degree of regulatory protection offered to established, publicly-traded businesses versus other types of businesses. For example, policies that tended to incentivize the development of wind power in lieu of petroleum would tend to harm the stock market regardless of their overall macroeconomic effects. This is because oil companies are more likely than wind power companies to be (i) already extant, (ii) publicly traded and (iii) included in major stock indices.
5. Irrational behavior and crowd psychology among investors.
I would argue that all of these factors are responsible to some degree or another for the present condition of the stock market. Investors may rightly be worried about the economy, but they may also be worried about the extent to which the Obama administration will protect established corporate interests -- i.e. their interests -- as opposed to broader economic ones. This is most clearly seen with the so-called Geithner put; equity holders in Citibank would much prefer it to receive an infusion of taxpayer dollars than to be taken over by the government, since they would be severely diluted or wiped out if the later occurred. But this has little to do with the question of whether bailouts or takeovers represent better public policy and are better for the economy in the long-run.
To make myself clear, this is not some abstract, ideological critique of equity markets, nor of the institution of the corporation. I am a pro-growth Democrat, and I am an investor myself. It is, rather, an attempt to elucidate the ways in which the interests of equity holders as reflected in (say) the S&P 500 may differ from those of the economy as a whole.
A more useful way to evaluate the stock market's perceptions about near-to-medium term economic growth may be to compare the performance of different groups of stocks. Some companies are more susceptible to business cycle fluctuations than others -- Campbell's Soup is famously recession-proof, whereas a luxury hotel company will tend to be more cyclical. (Unsurprisingly, Campbell's has lost "only" about 17% off its stock price over the past year, whereas Marriott International has lost almost 60%). If we could look at the relative performance of cyclical stocks versus more durable ones, we could get a better sense for where the stock market thinks we're headed in the business cycle.
As it happens, this is very easy to do because of the presence of various sector SPDRs ('spiders'), which are essentially just mini-stock indices consisting only of certain types of companies. Two SPDRs are particularly useful for our purposes. One, which goes by the exchange symbol XLP, is a spider of companies that produce consumer staples, and includes stocks such as Wal-Mart, Coca-Cola, and Campbell's Soup. The other, XLY, is an index of consumer discretionary products, and includes things like Home Depot, Carnival Cruises, and Ford Motor Company. The delineation between the two funds is not perfect -- for example, McDonald's gets classified as a discretionary good when it behaves more like a staple -- but should do relatively well for our purposes.
The number I'm going to show you is simply the ratio of XLY to XLP -- that is, the ratio of the share prices of consumer discretionaries to the consumer staples. I will multiply the result by 100 for ease of reading, and call it the CEI, for Cyclical Expectations Index. Higher CEI's indicate positive expectations about the near-term performance of the economy, whereas lower CEI's indicate bearish, recessionary sentiment. Here is how the CEI has performed since late 1998:
It appears that when the CEI dips below 100, this indicates recessionary expectations. The CEI fell below 100 on October 11, 2000, about five months in advance of the recession that began in March 2001 (it also briefly dipped below the 100 mark following the events of September 11th). The CEI also began falling significantly as of about August 2007, losing 25 percent of its value in the second half of that year in advance of the current recession, which dates back to December 2007 . In both cases, the CEI was much quicker to anticipate the recession than the broader S&P 500:
So what has happened to the CEI since Obama took over? Let's zoom in on the past couple years of returns:
As I mentioned, the CEI was much quicker to anticipate the current recession than the S&P 500, which didn't shed any real amount of value until the recession was already well under way. But also unlike the S&P 500, the CEI has not been particularly responsive to events of recent weeks. On inauguration day, the CEI stood at 85.5; yesterday, it closed at 85.1 (although it's closer to 83.6 as of midday today). The S&P 500, by contrast, has lost around 12 percent of its value over that period. And since Election Day, the CEI is down about 10 percent versus the S&P's roughly 30 percent.
There is also some evidence that the CEI responded favorably to the stimulus package. On November 24, 2008, the CEI jumped by 6.5 percent, its largest single-day increase since April, 18, 2001, when Alan Greenspan cut interest rates by a larger-than-expected margin. What happened that day? Obama made it clear that he wanted an "aggressive" stimulus package. (This was also the day that Obama officially rolled out his economic advisory team. However, the markets had known about the composition of Obama's advisory team as of the previous week -- and had already rallied in response to it -- whereas the characterization of the stimulus package was actual news).
All of this gives us a rather different perspective on what the stock market is really telling us about the broader economy. The CEI is down about 10 percent since Election Day, is up about 10 percent since the last day of trading before Obama announced his "aggressive" stimulus, and is essentially unchanged since Obama's inauguration. The market is not becoming particularly more pessimistic about macroeconomic conditions (although it has certainly retained its previous pessimism) -- if this were true, we'd see cyclical stocks losing further value relative to more economically robust ones. But that largely isn't what we've been seen. Instead, the stock market is engaged in something of a pity party -- the prevailing emotions being fear and loathing. It is concerned about policies which might be burdensome to equityholders in large corporations while perhaps nevertheless being boons to economic recovery.
3.05.2009
What the Stock Market Really Thinks About the Economy
by Nate Silver @ 3:10 PM...see also econometrics, economy, obama, stimulus, stock market
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91 comments
$250! for Franken!
First?
@Nate: Another very interesting analysis of the stock market. Thx.
Oh, Nate, you really are out of your depth here.
First off "The anticipated tax treatment of stock market investments vis-à-vis other asset classes" as a disntiction is silly: captials gains taxes apply to all capital assets whether they are traded on an exchange or not.
Similarly, risk tolerance is something that the market accomodates by pricing differentials, discounting higher risk ventures while marking up the safe assets.
Moreoever, anything that benefits the economy will benfit the amrket in general as much of the amrket is based on consumer sentiment and buying power and in our capitlaist system eventually a dollar even if "created" by the government has to make it into the private hands.
I could go on, but you are so far out of your depth as to be not worth reasoning with.
Let's take a look at the market today: plunging once more!
Citibank trades beneath a dollar and GM cannot muster $2.00. But heck, let's not get all squishy over the market. Things are jsut peachy and prosperity is right around the corner!
Look. People are delusional if they think the stock market is reflecting Obama's decisions. The stock market reflects the realities of the economic situation.
Lets look at Reagan's first couple years.
If CNBC were holding Reagan at the time to the same standard they currently hold Obama, in regards to market performance, how can they explain the DOW performance in the first two years of Reagan? If what CNBC says is true, the market should have been surging as soon as Reagan took over with all his pro business talk right?
Wrong.
It went from about 1000 when he was elected down to 760 a year and a half into his first term. That's a 24% drop.
Considering Reagan was about as pro-Business as you can get, this entire theory the market is reacting to the negatively to President Obama is ridiculous when you look at the market performance in Reagan's early years.
And if CEI is sudeenly bullish where are all the jobs and the spending to go with it?
Stick to baseball, Nate, youa re embarassing yourself!
Interesting indicator. I think the market is still figuring out what a regulated future means, and is still waiting for the bailout terms to be finalized. e.g. Does GM go bankrupt or not? Is Chrysler good as dead? How much longer do we bail out Citigroup? How about defense spending, is it in for an overhaul too, as has been rumored?
It isn't just credit markets, it is everything. We don't know what will be legal in six months, or what the biggest consumer in the country --- The US Govt --- will be buying or permitting.
If even staple goods are down 20%, nobody has any idea of what to invest in.
Regan created a new paradign and ushered in supply side economics that created the foundation for propserity, employment and wealth creation that we enjoyed in virtually uninterrupted fashion for nearly 30 years until Ovomit came on the scene.
Now he is killing it with his return to very economics that ruined this economy in the 1960s!
Tony C's commentary is instructive as it demonstrated the vast degree of uncertainty that is out there.
This could be cured very easily by the solution that dare not speak its name!
Petey,
Why did the market tank 24% when Reagan took over initially? Was it because of his pro-business talk? It took two years for the markets to recover. Why's that Petey?
One aspect of the "pity party" that Nate talks about can be seen every day on CNBC -- which I admit to watching semi-religiously. They are continually looking for the dark cloud inside any silver lining.
That said, there is a larger argument going on in the discussion of stock market trends. It's related to the discussion some weeks ago (but not dead yet) of whether the New Deal helped to get America out of the Depression. And this larger argument is actually a meta-argument: how much do stock market trends tell us about the economy?
By and large, conservatives want to use the stock market at the critical measure of how well the economy is doing. Liberals want to use employment and wages, including the inequality of incomes, as a measure of how well the economy is doing.
While these two measures are certainly related to one another, if we relied only on the stock market as indicator, we would conclude that America didn't fully exit the depression until the Dow surpassed the level last attained in 1929 -- namely, in the mid-1950s. But if we focused on employment and GDP recovery, we would see that inflation-adjusted GDP grew steadily from the late 1930's until the present day (with some recessions excluded....).
Putting this in a political context, the "New Deal Deniers" want us to look at the Dow. The "New Deal Defenders" want us to look at GDP. And they want to choose their preferred historical markers to defend their current attitude toward the Obama stimulus.
As a "liberal" (I don't apply the term "progressive" to myself), I prefer the indicator that probably better represents the situation of the average person. And if I had time now I'd take a good look at the Gini index of income or wealth distribution, not just GDP or GDP/capita.
To considerable extent this has been Nate's battle on 538: showing the disconnect, or the qualified connection, between stock market trends and trends in the real economy. And probably inadvertently he's engaging in the New Deal Debate while he's doing so.
You have your answer from me above, Lib defender.
Now go defend the fairness doctrine!
Juris:
Do you just amke this shit up?
"By and large, conservatives want to use the stock market at the critical measure of how well the economy is doing. Liberals want to use employment and wages, including the inequality of incomes, as a measure of how well the economy is doing.
"
Wealth or income distribution, Juris, is hardly a measure of prosperity. I am told that the rich have gotten richer over the last 30 years or so, but at the same time there is virtually no real pverty left in this country and everyone seems amazing prosperous (or at least they did until the edn of Bush era) compared to what I remember about the bad old days.
All that wealth creation at the top sure did a lot it seems to create employment and prosperity for all. Maybe it was the transfer of wealth from the government to the people that Ronald Reagan oversaw that did it?
Whaddya think?
The fact is, we went from the dot com bubble right into the real estate bubble.
Now that both have popped, the market must revert to reality. We can argue about what that is, it will probably over-correct (as it always does) and bounce back up to 7500 or whatever. But the bubble days are over, and after we account for the Bush administration letting big corporations and banks steal about a year's salary from us all through deregulation and hiding their inflationary spending on war, we will now return to a plodding 7.5% (5% after inflation) growth rate.
Unless we can find a new bubble.
And to pre-empt the idiots on this board; spending is NOT inflationary if it is an investment in the future because it pays for itself; not to the govt but to the people. Building useful roads is not inflationary, neither is building schools or providing college tuition grants or building an electrical grid. Bush's spending was inflationary because what we bought with it was used up in wars and the wars were not investments; they were just expenses.
Unlike WW II these wars did not create new factories and infrastructure and an industrialized giant. There were no roads or bridges built, no new power systems or water systems. We have nothing to show for these wars other than an iffy political situation and a massive debt.
Based on my limited knowledge, I would put forth that, irrationality aside, the things that the market indicates that are not clearly related to the well-being of the companies themselves are at their simplest:
* The relative appeal of making non-stock investments (e.g., bonds, real estate), including incentives (increase in the limits on the tax-free gains on your house--not a big factor at the moment, of course).
* Concerns about things that directly affect shareholder value without necessarily making the company less valuable as a whole, such as nationalization, dilution.
* Government (dis)incentives (e.g., higher capital gains tax makes things like interest income more appealing, or reducing/increasing tax on dividend income).
* Willingness to take on risks (e.g., if I'm retiring in five years and I need to know my retirement funds are going to be at least their current value).
@Tony C: agreed, we need to distinguish investment from consumption, whether that's part of the government budget or individual personal budgets.
That's part of my argument about health care reform as well (see the health care thread from earlier today): a good part of the "spending" that people complain about is actually investment in human capital by making people more productive, less sick, less likely to miss school or work, less likely to drop out of the labor force.
Obama's tracking stock down antoher 4% today as DOW and major indices plunge for five out of last six session.
Tony,
If only the Stimu-less Bill that Pelosi wrote for Ovomit actually contained some real infrastructure spending. Alas, it seems the bulk oif the money is going to ACORN!
Wake up! You seem like a smart guy! Put the glass of Kool Aide down and back away from the picnic table . . . .
OT but was surfing RCP a bit ago.
WSJ/NBC Poll
Very Positive
Somewhat Positive
Neutral
Somewhat Negative
Very Negative
Don't Know
Not Sure
------------------------------------------------VP SP N SN VN DN
February 2009............................ 47 21 12 9 10 1
January 2009.............................. 43 23 17 8 6 3
December 2008.......................... 45 22 15 8 8 2
October 17-20, 2008+................ 37 19 10 10 23 1
October 4-5, 2008+.................... 30 22 12 12 23 1
Man, Obama's positives are sky-rocketing, especially the very positives. If the GOP knew what was good for their party, they would do a little out-reach and embrace him and truly work with him.
But hey, they would rather embrace Rush the blowhard instead.
Is a cyclical measure appropriate here? If concerns are long growth trends or short run deflation, cyclicals and non-cyclicals would move together. Your broader point is good, but I am not sure your measure is sufficient.
The question remains, why has the S&P dropped if it is not on macro-economic expectations?
Let me pose an alternative hypothesis. Nate's CEI outperforming the S&P500 essentially means that consumer discretionary stocks outperformed consumer staples.
Nate concludes that the better performance of discretionaries indicates more favorable short term economic expectations.
An alternative explanation is that discretionaries had already been gutted by mid-January, while staples had held up. The gutting of staples over the past 1 1/2 months could reflect the market become even MORE pessimistic about the consumer.
Nate treats the market as a zero sum game between discretionaries and staples and analyzes the shift in their relative values. But, I think they both ought to be looked at in absolute terms, with discretionaries being the first to be thrown overboard, and staples being second as the market becomes even more pessimistic.
Can PeteKent just stop making up his own narrative and presenting it as truthiness? And please drop the childish insults in the form of pretend names. He is a deterrent to even reading ANY comments because of his disrespectful invective.
Pete, I don't think anything Nate said suggests that the CEI is suddenly "bullish." Nate is merely pointing out that things don't seem to be getting any worse by that measure since Obama entered office. While I myself am hesitant to think that the CEI is sensitive enough to read any positive reaction to the stimulus, Nate's conclusion that expectations are not getting any worse since Obama's been President is sound.
richard,
I think more and more people are losing confidence in Obama and his economy. I think expectations have gotten amterailly worse by any objective measure since Ovomit took office.
In other words, if the change in the CEI were the result of discretionaries gaining value, I think Nate would be correct.
But, it is clear that the change in CEI was the result of staples selling off even more than discretionaries, which I would interpret as as market pessimism about the stimulus. I see staples falling faster than discretionaries merely as the result of staples having further to fall.
Alas, it seems the bulk oif the money is going to ACORN!
Wow, at least you follow the wing wing talking points, never mind that it is a lie.
You did forget about the train that stops right at the Bunny ranch in Nevada. Or are you not that stupid?
Pete Kent -
You have misunderstood or misrepresented Nate's post -
You said -
First off "The anticipated tax treatment of stock market investments vis-à-vis other asset classes" as a disntiction is silly: captials gains taxes apply to all capital assets whether they are traded on an exchange or not.
First of all this is wrong in a major factual way, as there is no capital gains tax whatsoever on most sales of primary residences.
Second of all, Nate actually said -
1. The anticipated tax treatment of stock market investments (and personal income in general);
So you're characterization of his point is a straw man. He said nothing about stocks versus other asset classes.
Now I disagree with Nate a little here for a different reason - I completely reject that idea that people wont't want to make money if they have to pay taxes on it, a common right wing sound bite. No sane person is going to stick his money in a mattress because the gains he could make with it would be taxed. But that's a different issue.
Then you said -
Similarly, risk tolerance is something that the market accomodates by pricing differentials, discounting higher risk ventures while marking up the safe assets.
Which is correct.
But Nate actually said -
2. The market's risk tolerance;
So you and Nate are both correct here. Current low prices of stocks partially reflect the feeling that stock investments are a high risk venture in the current economy.
Then you said -
Moreoever, anything that benefits the economy will benfit the amrket in general as much of the amrket is based on consumer sentiment and buying power and in our capitlaist system eventually a dollar even if "created" by the government has to make it into the private hands.
This is flat wrong, and Nate explained why. Market indexes are made up of individual stocks; so is the overal market that they measure.
A holding in stock is a share in the ownership of a company.
If the companies that happen to be in the exchanges, or disproportionately likely to be traded publicly, are at a competitive disadvantage - say, if anachronistic industries are overrepresented - then the price of publicly traded stocks and their indices could go down, if investors are rational, even if the economy as a whole is experiencing growth.
Then you said -
I could go on, but you are so far out of your depth as to be not worth reasoning with.
Let's take a look at the market today: plunging once more!
Citibank trades beneath a dollar and GM cannot muster $2.00. But heck, let's not get all squishy over the market. Things are jsut peachy and prosperity is right around the corner!
In addition to the logical contradiction - if Nate is not worth reasoning with, why are you posting on his blog? - you continue to advance the opinion that the short term condition of the DJIA predicts the long term condition of the economy.
Well there is an obvious association between stock market crashes and recessionary periods, it is more probable that stock market crashes reflect crowd reaction to recognition or recessionary conditions, rather than that they represent either the cause of recessionary conditions, or that they represent a prescient prediction or recessionary conditions.
Japanese Character Guy -
Yes, but stocks DO represent ownership share in a company, and they must EVENTUALLY come to reflect that value, sooner or later.
Oh, flaneur, get over yourself. I am merely mocking all of the Ovomit supporters who tirelessly derided Bush and McCranky (McCancer!) over the years . . . .
I think more and more people are losing confidence in Obama and his economy. I think expectations have gotten amterailly worse by any objective measure since Ovomit took office.
No, Obama's numbers are rising.
Obama is being more open so people know that Bush left us an economy worse than we thought.
You really think that this economy is Obama's fault even though he has been in office for 6 weeks and every single one of these problems existed before Jan 20?
Pete, you may think so, but you have not offered evidence. All you have offered is invective and childish insults. If you would refrain from such things, people would be more inclined to listen to you. I, for one, would be glad to consider any evidence you would like to offer.
typo alert -
Well there is an obvious association between stock market crashes and recessionary periods, it is more probable that stock market crashes reflect crowd reaction to recognition or recessionary conditions, rather than that they represent either the cause of recessionary conditions, or that they represent a prescient prediction or recessionary conditions.
It should be "of recessionary conditions", nor "or recessionary conditions", in both cases.
Nate-
Really? One ratio explains the whole market? Not a chance my friend...
The market has only retreated to 12 year lows three times - 1932, 1971, and now. This might be the worst market crash ever - time will tell. We can be sure Obama has driven his agenda forward despite the market and all our 401k retirement money - maybe he wants us all dependent on gov handouts. Very disappointed here, horrendous economic moves so far. Lets hope the economy is robust enough to survive the wrongheaded, single minded push he is doing. I voted for him, I wantall these things - just not all right now.
In addition, under the radar, Obama seems to tacitly support patent reform which is a huge job killer and both manufacturing and labor are against - but he is Obama, it will all work out, right? He is not a Carter one termer who will ruin the economy with his single minded craziness right? He will not not only not only be the next Reagan, he won't lead to the next Reagan like Carter did, right?
Save me, I am wrong, right?
Citibank trades beneath a dollar and GM cannot muster $2.00.
Neither of those corporations are worth that much.
If either of these companies stock were rising, something would be very wrong.
Jon Stewart pwns Rick "pussy" Sentelli and DESTROYS CNBC
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/3/5/10622/32020/866/704926
Last night's entire show was legendary.
Unless you are willing to write the following sentence in the future, you do not have the intellectual credibility to blame Obama for the current drop.
"The considerable gains in the DJI over the past six weeks are the direct result of President Obama's economic policies."
@PK:
You seem like a smart guy!
I am a smart guy, I work with smart guys, and to us you seem like an idiot. we have numbers on our side. No leaps of faith.
You make a leap of faith because some fool fed you a line of libertarian bullshit at some point, and you drank that Kool-Aid and turned it into a fucking religion. I see no evidence on your part than any actual intelligence or thought goes into your spewing of conservative talking points. The only purpose you serve is as an example of the intellectually, morally and keyboard challenged right, so thanks for that.
The more you write the more incompetent you look, and that makes it easier for the actual thinkers to get their job done. Nobody is going to listen to you in your tinfoil hat, dumbass.
Obama Approval Stays Sky High
The latest Hotline/Diageo poll shows President Obama's favorability ratings remain high, with more than two-thirds of voters (68%) expressing a favorable opinion of him. In addition, 70% believe that he will be able to bring "real change" to the way things are done in Washington.
Additionally, voters are encouraged by the group of economic advisers surrounding him, with 64% expressing confidence in the team Obama brought into the White House.
A new Fox News poll shows Obama's approval rating at 63%.
So, according to the FOX Propaganda Nutwork:
Post-inauguration (feelgood "Honeymoon" period): 65% approval, 16% disapproval
One month into the Obama presidency (post-stimulus battle): 60% approval, 26% disapproval
TODAY (Honeymoon period presumably over, right? Dow, Sentelli "tea party" stunt, Budget, CPAC/Limbaugh): 63% approval, 26% disapproval
Also, Fox News conducted a poll asking which President you'd prefer running the U.S. economy, Reagan or Obama? Result: Obama won by 10 percentage points.
Hannity's head must have exploded on hearing that.
Not sure what version of patent "reform" you are talking about, fred, but Bush and the US Chamber of Commerce pushed the idea of weakening patent protection pretty hard. Although the legislation stalled, they got a severely weakened patent system through several Supreme Court rulings, including KSR v Teleflex and the injunctive relief case involving Microsoft.
My own experience is that businesses are pretty well split on the value of patents, with heavy hitters on both sides. Lilly, for example, is a major manufacturer as well as an R&D leader, and generally loves patents. However, it wouldn't mind making them hard to get or defend because it believes it will always be able to pay enough to get something decent and it might save them some headaches they've had in the recent past. Microsoft generally gets sued, not the other way around, so they seem to be antagonistic.
I'd say my manufacturing clients were about split. Generally they liked having patents. However, with the advent of global competition and sourcing they couldn't rely on US patents to help them as much as in the past, couldn't necessarily afford to get protection in every possible location (or couldn't enforce rights in places like Taiwan and China) and recouping R&D/prosecution costs was getting harder and harder. Sadly, most of the management types who decided how much to spend on patent prosecution weren't engineers or other creative types who saw innovation as a net good in all cases, but guys who had to explain to the Wal-Marts of the world why their bid was 5 cents higher per piece than the knock-off artist.
If this was a parliamentary system, Nobama would be facing a no confidence vote.
The market has rendered its opinion on his business hating, job destroying rhetoric. I say rhetoric, because his policies haven't had time to be enacted. His anti*--business rants along with Geitner is destroying the economy. Every day, there is a new boogeyman. It is scaring the crap out of everyone. Remember, 70% of the american people have an interest in the market, whether it be a 401k or an endangered pension.
Nate, this is one of the best articles you have ever written. Very informative and takes the "Feelings" out of the stock market.
CNN needs to hire you so they can inform the public with facts and superb analysis instead of the crap they pass as news.
Great Job.
I'm not sure there is actually evidence that this well-known ratio predicts downturns with greater alacrity than the S&P, and the chart here with two observations isn't convincing. Some of the recent strength in the ratio is also due to the lagged effect of the strong dollar, which weakens the consumer staples companies in the denominator.
You ought to make this a featured post, Nate.
Oh, my. This isn't analysis, it's rationalization predestined to support the conclusion that the stoack market doesn't matter. Hopelessly simplistic data sets for a highly-complex organism.
The message from the stock market couldn't be clearer. People are scared to death and everything this administration does and says makes them scarederer.
Let's not pretend the "market" is some kind of coherent or rational consciousness. Rather it's a blended stupidity and irrationality of millions of decisions. The market behavior of the past year is an excellent example of that utter stupidity and uninformed irrationality. The American people are having to learn again after the Crash of the 30s just how irrational the market behavior is, and just what liars, crooks, thieves, and morons the people are who run Wall St. and our corporate structures.
Baby boomer aggregate spending has peaked and it's all downhill now.
The economy isn't coming back in your lifetime. Sorry.
If you decide to leave your day job and become a broker, I'd be the first to sign up. One of the most intelligent readings of our economic situation I've seen.
Oh God. It is crazy person comment day on 538.
First Pete Kent and his typo ridden bullshit.
Then Jack be nimble once again posts to prove that he and reality parted ways a while ago.
Finally as the cherry on top of the turd, Rudy posts his "I hate the effing New Deal because it has ruined everything since the 1930's."
Bottom line is the stock market is the ultimate experiment in group think and we all know how productive that is. The economy sucks right now and there really are not any good answers. Have any of our illustrious posters from the right realized that a stock market rising in a totally nuked economy makes no sense?
It is funny; kent and his ilk raged and raged pre-election about everyone "drinking the kook-aid" yet only the right thinks the only thing the market reacts to is Obama. I cannot express how retarded that view really is. That is how a two year old thinks; that their mommy or daddy can control everything in the world.
Someone said:
"Not sure what version of patent "reform" you are talking about, fred, but Bush and the US Chamber of Commerce pushed the idea of weakening patent protection pretty hard. Although the legislation stalled, they got a severely weakened patent system through several Supreme Court rulings, including KSR v Teleflex and the injunctive relief case involving Microsoft."
KSR v Teleflex, eBay v MercExchange, at least we defeated the new rules last year in the GSK/Tafas case. Yes, the patent system is weakening, but not fast enough for the Google bought and owned Leahy, tacitly supported by Obama so far which weakens the system through weak damages to the point of near worthlessness. Leahy introduced a bill in the Senate yesterday that would weaken the patent system to near shit. Yippee! Weak patents! No reason left to manufacture here AT ALL! Who needs jobs in the U.S.! Go-Bama!
I went to the inner city to work for Obama on election day, boy, am I starting to think Hillary was the right choice. This guy is looking alot like Carter, a pig-headed overzealous control freak who had great ideas but insisted on implementation that ruined them all. Go-Bama!
Here's hoping I am wrong...
When these pouting investors come back to the table, they'll find they'll have to share their old seats with new, young, green entrepreneurs.
Andrew-
They always have...ever heard of venture capital?
The Republicans (no longer worthy of the label Conservatives) are apparantly intent on trying to bring down this economy in order to "blame" Obama for its downfall. This includes such techniques as talking down the economy and the stock market and blaming Obama and his policies, even though it's patently absurd to do so. What's going on in the stock market and the economy FAR PREDATES President Obama's coming into power. To say or infer otherwise is to brand yourself a partisan ideologue.
fred - The patent system has been in need of reform for years. How does losing the ability to patent ridiculous things like Amazon's "one-click" purchasing cost American jobs? How do Apple's ridiculously broad patents help preserve American jobs? Are you just a bitter IP lawyer?
Patents are necessary, but the system as currently constituted really doesn't work. Patents should work to encourage innovation, not stifle it.
@Fred Yippee! Weak patents! No reason left to manufacture here AT ALL!
Actually, wouldn't that be "no reason NOT to manufacture here?" If you were arguing that there was no reason to do R&D in a country with weak patent laws, I'd understand, although I still might not agree.
It occurred to me some time ago that in a global economy with inhomogenous patent laws, there is an IP race to the bottom: the economy with the weakest patent laws that are still strong enough not to provoke protectionism has an advantage in manufacturing cost over its competitors. Thus continual efforts to:
- chip away at patent law in one's own country.
- pressure other industrialized countries to strengthen their patent laws by threatening protectionist measures
- harmonize patent law amongst industrialized countries
We have seen all of these.
Howard-
You can't get the Amazon one click patent anymore, go read In Re Bilski, but nice try. Biz method patents (like one-click) should never have been allowed, but the over-reaction to them is going to stop pharmaceuticals and real manufacturers from getting patents - costing us alot of jobs. Go read Leahy's bill, particularly the damages section - it is the Patent Reform Act of 2009.
Keep in mind, the reaction to most downturns, including 1982 and the Federal Circuit, is to strengthen patents, not weaken them.
Erik-
WRONG! R and D can be done anywhere and patented here, go read the PCT treaty. You manufacture here because your patent and trade secrets cannot be protected in China - knckoffs are everywhere and the gov itself rips off you patents over there.
At least a part of the continuing market decline can be attributed to the anti-growth initiatives which the Dems are pushing:
1. Cap and trade which will place a severely regressive tax on consumers,
2. The Employee Free Choice Act which makes it easier to organize unions for those workers who want one and much harder to avoid a union by workers who don't want one,
3. Continuation of the highet corporate tax rate in the world,
4. Increasing taxes on small businesses which generate most of the jobs,
5. Extending unempoyment benefits which subsidizes, and therefor creates more, unemployment.
6. Bailouts for weak businesses and higher taxes for successful ones.
What a disaster!
I think we should start calling them the RepubliCAN'T party....
leave-me-alone-
You are right on 1.
You are wrong on the rest. Six is completely wrong, they are discussing bailing out a few huge companies and paying unemployment will cost just as much. Five is crazy, you really want homelessness and people on food stamps? Four is wrong, they are increasing taxes on folks who individually make alot of money - the only "small business" owners that this really affects are doctors and lawyers. Three is wrong as biz get to write off just about everything. Two I am neutral on, the EFCA is a good idea, but it seems un-American.
The market also takes into account the relative value of the dollar compared to other currencies. We don't notice this effect in our own market but historically it has had a dramatic effect on the stock markets of emerging markets.
fred,
Sorry I biffed on recalling it was eBay - I teach the case, I shouldn't have those sorts of issues. Personally, I favor a robust patent system - I think Jefferson was right that it is a huge spur to innovation and even if many of the proposed inventions aren't really patentable, the act of invention and application is good for the nation.
At the same time, I do think you overstate the system's impact on manufacturing staying in the US. A continuing US presence has a lot to do with how an industry's supply chain is driven, more so than patents. I can tell you, for example, that in the last couple decades the Big 3 put profit margins from suppliers above all else, which tilted the market against some major US manufacturers with big patent portfolios and in favor of overseas competition who danced around the edges of infringement. The Big 3 shifted the issue of sorting out infringement onto the suppliers (and of course no one wanted to sue the Big 3 directly and risk losing even more business) so companies still had to cut their costs while trying to protect their patent rights in court. Even for companies who kept investing in patents, the price pressure led to manufactuirng moving out - first to anti-union states like Arkansas, then to Mexico, China, the Czech Republic, etc. Of course GM proved to be penny wise and pound foolish since it kept looking for price concessions on parts without critically examining the product mix, but those manufacturing jobs just aren't coming back no matter how strong the patent system is.
Again, not saying we should weaken it further - just that I don't think the connection of patents to manufacturing locations is all that strong in most cases.
Berkeley Bear-
I work at a company that is part of the Dow Jones Industrial Average, that manufactures in the United States, that will move its jobs overseas if they cannot protect their IP because all we will be able to compete on is cost. I will always have a job, but I would like to see those plants stay here. The damages section of the Leahy bill is a complete mess. You are wrong, sorry, but I live it, I know it.
Manufacturing ONLY occurs here because of historical plant investments and IP...ONLY!
PeteKent said:
there is virtually no real pverty left in this country
Once I stopped laughing, I figured that told me about all I needed to know about where he was coming from.
As for GM, lets not use auto manufacturing a model for anything. Keep in mind that labor itself killed union jobs at places like IH long before the downturn because they are complete idiots. Also remember that GM was insolvent a decade back but for home loans. Auto manufacturing is not the model.
Is it just me or does Michael Steele have a tiny head?
I don't know about his head, but he has a small brain pretty clearly. How could you screw up so bad, so fast?
Aw, no post about this?
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/03/poll-vitter-below-50-for-2010----in-both-primary-and-general-elections.php
I know Nate said that Vitter wasn't in trouble, but how beautiful would it be to see him primaried for real and not just by Stormy Daniels?
PeteRant used to post the Republican talking points with great accuracy. But he is now down to embarassing himself as he misrepresents posts he can barely understand.
He is becoming the new MuleRider. Time for moderation here to extirpate the trolls and the fools. A full time job with PeteRant and Jack-be-Simple around.
I know I'm late to the party, but I couldn't resist this:
Hopelessly simplistic data sets for a highly-complex organism.
The message from the stock market couldn't be clearer. People are scared to death and everything this administration does and says makes them scarederer.
So Nate is "hopelessly simplistic" by examining two indices in depth, yet somehow Rudy is just on the money using one number to "explain" that the "market couldn't be clearer".
Anyone who reads anything into a one-day (or even two-week) movement of the market deserves to lose all the money he's gonna be losing.
Hmmm, how about 3 month movement of the market and Nate acting like a complete idiot by acting like two indices falling scarily fast, but at the same rate, makes it all good.
This is not normal, this is historically bad, and very close to a first for a collapse. But hey, party on, keep acting like it is all good! Your generation can screw the democratic party just like Carter did. Party on, but only if your IQ is below 80.
@Fred WRONG! R and D can be done anywhere and patented here,
Exactly my point. US patents are easy to get and we're a big market, so why not develop IP overseas and patent it here?
go read the PCT treaty.
Check.
You manufacture here because your patent and trade secrets cannot be protected in China
Um, no, you manufacture in China because your competitor's patents and trade secrets are invalid or uninforcable in China. At least that's been a factor for most of the Chinese factories I've visited.
Apparently, you angrily agree with me. Fine. We agree that strong US patent laws facilitate the flight of R&D overseas.
@fred: If you've had any money in a market index fund for the last few years you know that the big collapse of the market bubble began in late 2007. It's been pretty much down hill since then.
If you have any awareness of when the bailouts occurred, and how weirdly McCain behaved before endorsing them wholeheartedly as Congress as a whole voted for them, and how strangly Paulson acted once he had the TARP money, you would also realize when and how all this mess started and how inadequate was the initial government response to the housing collapse and the whole house of financial cards collapsing.
And that's without going into the specifics of how the bubble grew in the first place, with virtually unregulated frontier capitalism for several years.
OK, so Obama hasn't been able to reverse the slide. Most of us are hoping he will (are you?), but it's stupid to think it could be reversed in a month. This slide is an avalanche and has a lot of momentum.
As for Nate's analysis, he's not saying anything but that things are in very bad shape, but his CEI may be a better way to capture the timing and depth of the situation than just looking at the Dow. And that's potentially useful.
Stick around, and we'll get some feedback from economists who play with this kind of index. In the meantime 90% of the comment on this thread haven't evaluated the article at all -- I mean haven't even tried to do so.
I'm not sure how we got onto patent law, but I can't resist throwing out a statement of support for patent reform: reducing the duration of some patents, preventing patent squatting on common-sense ideas, etc. We also need copyright reform, with a reduction in the duration of copyright and clear definition of fair use.
It is always interesting to see the attacks upon a idea. The first is the ad hominem attack as demonstrated by PeteKent, who follows up with silly insults.
This post really sums up the pity party whining I have been having a difficult time understanding, coming from the CNBC commentators, and really drawn to a pimple head by Cramer tonight with an incredible demonstration of childish behavior (on the other hand market commentators flip flop like weather vanes in a tornado).
Thus far almost no capital (monies to or from) has really been transferred or taken from the Obama stimulus or the Obama tax reform or the Obama green promotion or the Obama health reform. Any reaction of the stock market is clearly and strictly psychological.
Like the response today to the wavering Chinese stimulus.
Sure wish the stock market would respond to earnings and not ideology.
Harold said:
"Yes, but stocks DO represent ownership share in a company, and they must EVENTUALLY come to reflect that value, sooner or later"
That can be untrue or a tautology, depending on how you look at it. With many businesses the value of the stock directly affects the value of the company in all sorts of ways, and you can get a form of deflationary spiral.
The stock goes down. The company reacts. The reaction worsens the company's position which further weakens the stock.
Some ways the stock price can feed back:
The value of options
The reduced ability to use stock instead of cash for acquisitions.
management fear of being a takeover target causing defensive measures like loading up on debt or spinning off divisions.
raiders seeking to "maxmize corporate value" by breaking up the company or milking it.
Fear affecting the company's credit rating.
reduction in value of company stock used as collateral
I'm sure you could think of more once you started looking at it.
The problem is that the stock market is attempting to predict the unpredictable. It's an unstable control system with delays and feedback. It tries to track future value but has to settle for proxies of dubious merit. You can't compensate for bad data by cranking up the gain. You make the system more sensitive, but not more accurate.
If you're trying to make chicken salad from chicken droppings, the solution isn't to buy a new blender.
Juris-
Pretty clearly I want a market turn.
The CEI to me simply means the indicies are falling at the same rate, and that seems unlikely to me to be meaningful - maybe it will be if the market turns but we are in a death sprial now.
As for my points - Obama is adding huge uncertainty to markets that like certainty, I just wish he could do a few small things and wait for the market turn and use his power now to actually get folks appointed to his economic team.
@G:
Yeah, Cramer is an idiot. I don't understand why he is still on shows; he was advocating buying Bear Stearns weeks before it collapsed, and Lehman, and so many other jaw-dropping losers it is unbelievable if it weren't on tape.
However, the reactions to Obama's plans (which I wish were larger) is not just psychological, it is rational.
Obama's plans will (rightly) re-regulate the market, perhaps reinstate Glass-Steagal or something similarly tough, demand new limits on leverage, and in general make it impossible for banks and investment firms to engage in the 30:1 leverage they had (Bear Stearns) or the 75:1 leverage that bankrupted Lehman.
As it should.
This change in the rules will force banks back onto the sidelines, watching others make money while they plod along, scrimp and save with net incomes at 6% to 10% of deposits, depending on whether they fund credit cards.
It is questionable whether they can do that; but it was only ten years ago they could, so hopefully there remains some institutional memory of how to make that work.
It isn't psychological. Market dependencies are complex, but a rational assessment of the future market makes a lot of businesses stop making sense as they are.
The market must revert to the pre-bubble baseline, and I would not be surprised to see it hit 5400.
The size of his budget is no big deal; the interest on a trillion dollars works out to 1/2 of 1% of our national income, and even that small amount is going to be shifted primarily to the wealthy as a 3% tax increase on the top 2.5%. It may be slightly inflationary, but if he pays it down, it won't be even that.
The storm and thunder and collapse of the stock market are all about the coming regulations and the reversion of the banking system.
@Harold:
Yes, but stocks DO represent ownership share in a company, and they must EVENTUALLY come to reflect that value, sooner or later.
Only in a literal sense, but the vast majority of investors don't see it that way. The book value of Microsoft or Apple is 25% and 30% of shares, respectively, and you can't really count on even that.
What people are buying is growth, which is to say, earnings per share. The Dow reflects how much people are willing to pay for a dollar of earnings; and currently, it is running at about $12. (P/E of 12). In 1982 the Dow dropped to a post WW II low with a P/E of 7. If we hit that level, it will drop to 3850.
I don't think things are that uncertain; actually. I don't think we will break a P/E of 10, about 5400. It would take a combination of uncertainty and inflation to drive us another 30% down to 7; but I suppose we will see.
In the meantime, screen for companies with low P/E and actual earnings, and verify they won't be going out of business in the next five years, and wait for it. The best thing investors can do now is assume Obama will not wimp out. That means screen for companies selling real products and services at a real profit. By "real products" I mean something you can understand and believe has a market in a recessionary future. Buy the companies you like in the bottom half of the P/E range. Be careful of the lowest P/Es in that list, a very low P/E usually indicates some risk that might not be immediately apparent, like pending litigation or critical contracts or a recent change in leadership or some other battle. Do your due diligence. Assume the days of easy money and Ponzi schemes are over.
Most professional investors are making that assumption, and that is why the market is tanking. It is rational, not emotional.
So, if I understand this correctly, Nate is saying that a bloodbath in the stock market does not represent a loss in confidence, as long as discretionaries don't take more of a beating than staples?
Nate's argument makes a certain amount of sense, but you'd have to be living under a rock to not notice that the mood of 2009 is apocalyptic compared to 2008 or 2007.
Looking at the composition of the "spiders," I question whether they measure what they're supposed to measure. Here they are:
http://www.sectorspdr.com/spdr/composition/?symbol=XLY
http://www.sectorspdr.com/spdr/composition/?symbol=XLP
Walmart is a staple (in reality they sell a bunch of plastic crap that you can do without), but Target is discretionary, even though it's just a slightly upscale version of Walmart. Cigarettes are staples. Restaurants are discretionary (in particular, McDonald's amounts to over 11% of the weight of the discretionary side), but Sysco, which sells food to restaurants, is a staple. Soft drinks are staples. TV (comcast, DirectTV and Time Warner, amounting to 13%) are discretionary, as if they aren't the cheapest entertainment which will be the last thing to go.
Do we really expect people to stop going to McDonald's during a recession (once again, McD's amounts to 11% of the weight of the discretionary spider)? With their dollar menu, and their free kids' playground? But they're going to keep buying Pepsi (which nobody needs and has cheaper generic knockoffs) - but at Walmart, not Target, or at restaurants that are supplied by Sysco?
Have these spiders been validated in any way? And has the CEI been validated against other measures of investor confidence in the economy?
fred,
just because you were stupid enough to buy into Reagan's ponzi scheme with the Stock Market, doesn't mean that the rest of us should have to suffer to keep your retirement, which probably isn't even close to how big it should be, even if the stock market had kept up at 8% a year... $1 million, per person to retire on. that's what's called for.
and, yes, fred, we know. GM is a bank. So are the other auto companies, Cerberus included.
Though I follow 538 religiously, I rarely have the time (or access - due to my work almost any public forum or non-controlled communication is limited) to post on here, but reading this thread, I wanted to ask for some guidance from the regulars:
PeteKent -- troll, or did Rushbo switch from Oxycontin to Adderall?
>> Be careful of the lowest P/Es in that list, a very low P/E usually indicates some risk that might not be immediately apparent, like pending litigation or critical contracts or a recent change in leadership or some other battle.
It can also mean pending pressure on sales and therefore profits. A case in point, I've been looking at YZC (Yanzhou Coal) that a good friend (and very successful and longtime value investor) holds. The P/E was crazy, a 2 I think, when he bought in. But there is/was both the risk you talk about (it's in China which has domestic political risks associated with that) and unlike most coal miners they do NOT hold a lot of long term contracts. They sell most of their coal on the spot market. Meaning the earnings side of the P/E was way out of whack to what it was about to become due to falling energy demand, especially with the still pending at the time tanking of the China manufacturing.
That's the unknown right now, where the bottom of the economy is. Already we are seeing that 8.1% unemployment number that Obama targeted for summer. Until investors see some proof that the economy is going to level out, that the first wave of the stimulus bill will actually do what it is intended to do, it's much more a faith call about what future earnings are going to be, where the bottom of those earnings are. Uncertainty. So it is rational emotion because you've got this big hole in the hard data to fill.
We won't see the bottom of the stock market till there is a critical mass of people that are convinced we have a firmer number on the bottom of the economy with which to assess a firmer number for future earnings.
Oh, plus on the banking side we know something is coming but it's not there yet and we don't know what it is yet. So on top of the implications of regulation that you mention there is flat out uncertainty of which banks are in better position relative to the others and overall.
Because banks are going to make money again. The ones in the best positions are going to do just fine. While likely removing the wild, high risk based profits of relatively recent times, they'll do quite fine with those boring profits. :)
So anything financial based is getting beat up over uncertainty and that won't stop till the new regulations are spelled out and put in place (not something you can just overnight...and of course related to the appointment problems mentioned in a new post on this blog).
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Nate is a very smart guy, but I think he is out of area of expertise here. He clearly does not have sufficient historical data to conclude that anything about these idexes is predictive.
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