Matt Yglesias has this creepy habit of writing about things the very moment that I'm thinking about them. Today I was looking at this handy chart prepared by the National Taxpayers' Union on the top marginal tax rates at different points in time. If you're at all familiar with debate over tax policy, this will be pretty familiar territory to you: the top marginal tax rate is now higher than it was under Reagan, but lower than it was under Clinton, and much lower than it's been at various other points in history. (The average top marginal tax rate since the income tax was established is 60 percent).
What the discussion over the top marginal tax rate ignores, however (and what Ygelsias picks up upon) is that this rate has been assessed at very different thresholds of income. In 1940, for example, the top marginal tax rate was 81.1 percent -- but this rate only kicked in once you made $5,000,000 or more in income, which is equivalent to about $75,000,000 in today's dollars.
But today, the threshold where the top tax bracket kicks in isn't $75 million, or $5 million, or even $1 million ... it's a mere $357,700. The progressivity of the tax code stops there.
NOTE: Inflation-Adjusted Dollars
Needless to say, these are much more dramatic differences -- more than a thousandfold at various points in our history -- than we've observed in the progress of top tax rate. They're so large, in fact, that we need to plot them on a logarithmic scale to get a better handle on things:
NOTE: Inflation-Adjusted Dollars
The median top income tax threshold since 1913 -- adjusted for today's dollars -- is a little over $1.3 million, almost four times higher than it is now. This is one thing that advocates of more progressive taxation (of which I am one) need to keep in mind: although the top tax rates have been much higher throughout much of the country's history, they also kicked in at much higher thresholds of income than the ones we see today.
The question, of course, is why there isn't a millionaires tax bracket now ... or even a multi-millionaires tax bracket. I haven't run the numbers, but I'm guessing that if you established a new tax bracket at, say, 40.5 percent, that started at incomes of $1,000,000 or more, this would bring in as much revenue to the government as restoring the $250K tax bracket (which is really $360K now given indexing to inflation) to 39.6 percent, as it was under Clinton.
And I think Yglesias is also right that the politics of this might play out even better for Obama (although, to be clear, a recent NBC/WSJ journal says that most Americans favor a repeal of the Bush tax cuts). I don't really feel a tremendous amount of sympathy for those in the $250,000 to $999,999 income bracket. (It's tough to raise a family of five in Manhattan on $250K per year? Then don't live in Manhattan). But I suspect a fairly large fraction of Americans have either a friend, family member, or immediate supervisor who makes that sort of money, and might still consider them to be within the broad definition of "middle class". Or they have some reasonable hope of someday making that amount themselves: I've heard it said before that people tend to define "rich" as someone making four times as much as themselves, and there are certainly quite a few American households who make at least $62,500 per year (one quarter of $250K).
Not very many people, however, are good acquaintances with a million-dollar income earner, and in a great many industries it is impossible to even imagine making that sort of money no matter how far one advances. Using the 4x rule that I described above, about 70 percent of the country would consider $250K to be "rich", but 98 percent would describe a million dollar income that way. And when you ask people whether they think the "rich" should be paying more taxes, the response is overwhelmingly that they should be ... about 66 percent of Americans think that "upper-income people" pay too little in taxes, versus just 9 percent who say they pay too much.
To be clear, this is not necessarily intended as an argument against raising taxes at the $250,000 level, or some other sub-million dollar threshold of income. I'm merely stipulating that if that if the conversation stops at that point, we aren't really using all the tools at our disposal to craft socially and economically optimal tax policy.
3.10.2009
The Missing $1,000,000 Tax Bracket
by Nate Silver @ 8:36 PM
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)

240 comments
Then there are those who are poor and still side and vote with the rich because they imagine that some day, that will be them, and they want to protect the money they think they will have when the lottery comes in or the Nigerian Businessman finally sends them their check.
I think this sums it up nicely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsql45M4c64
I do think it makes sense to add further tax brackets at higher income levels -- dropping off at such a small number evades those who have far more money available.
I wonder what percent of the population falls into the top bracket over the course of income tax history. That might also shed light on the politics of progressive taxation.
Very interesting.
Although focusing only on the top marginal tax threshold is probably even less informative than focusing only on the top rate.
A more illuminating question would be to ask what was the total rate the top x percentile was paying.
Another question is what were marginal tax rates at the equivalent of $250,000/year throughout history? That could shed some light on a) how much the tax increase could hurt the economy and b) how much those people have to complain about?
Here's a good read for Nate and all of you other idiots so full of sh*t that you can't see straight. Obama can't do this on the backs of the top wage earners alone. He's going to have to screw the middle class.
The 2% Illusion
Mr. Obama is very good at portraying his agenda as nothing more than center-left pragmatism. But pragmatists don't ignore the data. And the reality is that the only way to pay for Mr. Obama's ambitions is to reach ever deeper into the pockets of the American middle class.
I've been looking around for that first graph you used. I saw it well over a year during a failed stint selling life insurance and the correlation between the top tax bracket and economic troubles was easy to see and counter to everything one party has been telling us loudly since 1994.
Nate Silver,
I want you to comment on that WSJ article I linked to, you piece of sh*t. Talk about it. Discuss it. It points ou the "2% illusion" that Barack is trying to portray. It's not going to be enough money. He'll have to raise taxes on the middle class.
Answer the questions, you spineless douche.
Nate,
You are intellectually dishonest and a bold-faced liar. Address these lies about Obama's tax policy I've pointed out or I'll mock you ad infinitum.
Talk about Barack's plan and how faulty it is, Nate. Talk about those top tax rates and how they don't matter. Talk about how you can take every dime out of every dollar earned over $250,000, and it still won't be enough to cover the most radical spending plans in US history.
Talk about that. Talk about how Obama must raise taxes on the middle xlass to have even a remotely acceptable budget in the years to come and not cause runaway deficits and an exploding national debt. Talk about it, douchebag. I'm waiting.
You're letting your fans down, and I'm humiliating you in the meantime.
Smoking Aces: That article is quite interesting and raises many valid points, but he plays a few tricks with the way he presents his numbers to make them seem more in his favor. He says raising taxes to 100% on everyone earning over 500k would only raise 1.3 trillion... and states that this is (just slightly) less than half the federal budget as if that were nothing... 22 billion dollars per percentage point increase on the over 500k group is nothing to sneeze at... he implies we are trying to fund the whole budget with this extra money by not ever mentioning the current tax revenue, only the additional revenue
You are an embarrassment Nate Silver. I've called you out, and you refuse to address the gaping hole in Barack's plans and the big lie and cover-up that is being perpetuated about his tax policy.
Come on now. You're a smart fellow. Talk about it. Analyze it. Crunch the numbers and prove me (and the WSJ) wrong.
You can't. You won't. Because the facts aren't on your side, you pathetic weasel.
Wow, I am sorry... I didn't realize when I tried to post a rational reply to SmokingAces that he was in fact just a troll.. only his first post was up at the time, which was relatively un-trollish... did not mean to feed the trolls, sorry
lol @ SmokingAces thinking he's "humiliating" anyone besides himself.
He presents the numbers to seem more in his favor because they are in his favor.
Keep in mind, though, that to get that $1.3 trillion, it takes a 100% tax rate on every dollar earned over $500,000. I can't fathom a situation where we take that much money from the uber-rich, no matter how much we "despise" them.
Nate is running from this. He's scared. He's spineless. He's worthless.
To all of you on here always clamoring for conservatives to provide "evidence" or "facts", I've done exactly that. And they show what a fraud this President is. I'm waiting on an intelligent and cogent rebuttal.
Nate,
You cannot ignore, or dismiss, the cost of living in various cities. You cannot just say "Well move." That's the kind of insensitivity that Democrats are accusing Republicans off.
Please, get off your economic high horse. This isn't your best post, by far
<--A household income of 250K is hardly "rich" even in DC standards.
Damn, I guess Mule Rider was liable to reinfect this site.
Smoking Aces appears to be Mule Rider redux.
This is a brilliant post, Nate. And the answer as to why there isn't a millionaire's rate is answered in one simple word: lobbyists.
If you struggle on $250K you are living beyond your means.
Wow, I am sorry... I didn't realize when I tried to post a rational reply to SmokingAces that he was in fact just a troll.. only his first post was up at the time, which was relatively un-trollish... did not mean to feed the trolls, sorry
So because I talk a little shit (which is dished out unmercifully in here otherwise) while presenting these facts and I'm a "troll"? Hey, facts are facts. The liberal mob in here always demands them. I'm providing them, and they show the dirty little secret behind Obama's plans. You can either give an intelligent rebuttal or hide from the evidence. It's your call. Label me "troll" and be on your merry way. That won't change the facts.
lol @ SmokingAces thinking he's "humiliating" anyone besides himself.
Did I miss the intelligent, analytic response from LAW that poked holes in my argument? Or was that just a drive-by half-ass attempt at an insult because he/she doesn't have any sensible clue as to how to responds?
"LOL" all you want at me, but I presented facts/evidence. I'm waiting on an intelligent reply. So far I've been called a "troll" and been pointed and laughed at by a juvenile without even a remotely credible response.
You have presented nothing of substance.
Perhaps that flies at freerepublic, but not here.
The Institute for Policy Studies, in a report released late last month, has proposed a 70 percent top marginal rate for income over $10 million. More at:
http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/#1112
It's also interesting to compare the actual taxes the very rich pay, after exploiting loopholes, over time. In 1955, the top 400 income-earners paid 51.2 percent of their total incomes in federal income tax. In 2006, the top 400 paid just 17.2 percent of their total incomes in taxes. More at:
http://www.toomuchonline.org/articlenew_2009/march9a.html
And now STepper and Befuddled join in the insult chorus and reference me in a crass way to me being some kind of equestrian. But - and here's the key - they offer no intelligent rebuttal.
If you struggle on $250K you are living beyond your means.
Try being a family of 4 or 5 in the NYC or DC area. As R-Boy said, you can't dismiss the cost of living in some areas. It's real. And on top of that, it's insensitive to suggest someone should just "get out" if they are struggling there.
You have presented nothing of substance.
Perhaps that flies at freerepublic, but not here.
Hey, the article speaks for itself. Get your head out of the sand or out of your ass and rebuff me in an intelligent way. Just don't take umbrage with me because I post something you don't want to see.
It's said the intelligentsia of this site present facts and the trolls hurl insults without facts.
So far, I've presented facts and you all have only responded with insults.
A few things I'd like to point out...
1. To a strong majority 250K is rich and more than enough to live a comfortable life no matter where you live. Sure, if you live in DC or NY, maybe you can't have a yacht with that amount of money, but I won't shed any tears about that.
2. @ Smoking Aces: The idea to raise the tax rate for the wealthy is not intended to be the only way to close budget shortfalls. Its going to require lots of decisions about spending cuts too, while choosing key areas to invest our resources (education, health care, energy).
3. I don't think anyone really wants to 'soak the rich', but there are those of us who truly believe the wealthy don't pay their fair share for our nations prosperity. These folks often benefit from government policies when they're young (federal student loans/grants for example) and then have an aversion to giving the same opportunities for future generations. This nation gives everyone tremendous opportunities to build wealth; those who achieve that wealth should have some responsibility to contribute more in exchange for that opportunity they were given.
Thanks, Dennis. While you didn't necessarily defend the "2% illusion", you gave a civil and meaningful response without hurling an insult because you don't like what I have to say.
By the way, I'm all in favor of a highly progressive tax system. But Obama's spending is (and will be) out of control.
Wow, demand a few facts or an intelligent rebuttal from a few liberals, and they scatter like mice throughout the barn when you open the big front doors.
And Nate's hiding from me right now pissing his pants. I can tell he's probably thumbing through every bit of information he can to find a hole in what I posted, but he can't. He can't because Obama is a liar. His tax plan is indefensible. He has to hit the middle class with tax increases. That's the only way to pay for this sh*t without exploding the national debt.
I'm waiting on a liberal with some brains to tell me I'm wrong. Nate, you're supposed to be the champion of this mob with all the answer, yet you've been conspicuously silent.
Could it be that you're stumped? Out of answers? Unable to defend your magical and messianic Obama?
Is it possible? Are you that clueless, Nate. Answer me, sh*tbag, or I demand you to offer an apology for your ignorance and partisanship.
Smoking Aces: Now some of the spending is certainly debatable. The problem is that getting a Democratic controlled Congress to stop pushing its favored programs and make tough choices is next to impossible. In reality, Obama has only so much control of it. What I do like is the clear message about where our investment should be aimed. If our situations in energy, healthcare, and education are improved/resolved somehow, I don't think there is any denying we will be in a stronger fiscal position. I think in the interim running the deficits will be painful for everyone, which likely will include a slightly higher tax burden on my generation, but ultimately we may benefit from the long-term approach Obama is taking.
We don't have a progressive tax system. We have a hump-shaped system, where the upper middle class pays at the highest rates. The average tax rate of the wealthiest 1% of Americans is less than 23%.
taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/07/wsj-wealthy-ame.html
And as mookie pointed out, the very wealthiest pay at an even lower rate.
It's called "capital gains". Now, I can't say why your income based on already being rich should be not be taxed as heavily as my income based on working. But that's the system we've got.
I don't believe the "2% illusion" is held by anyone, even Obama himself. Based on my memory of speeches and whatnot, it is created by the article author himself to describe a simplification of what I understand the plan to be.
It breaks down like this:
1. Right now the economy needs a short, sharp kick to the butt and the head, and the administration has chosen to do that with these stimulus packages. Obama himself said that these packages were one time deals to jumpstart things back into working condition, that we'd have to work hard to pay off in the future.
2. Tax increases and future spending cuts, restructure the budget to eliminate the deficit will go a much further distance toward reducing our debt over time or in fact ever, than continuing to operate the way that past administrations and congresses have structured things.
There has been nothing in his speeches to indicate that Obama has the delusion we can pay for these stimulus plans in one year. I don't recall him even saying that we can pay for them in four years. But if we can lose the deficit, and have a budget surplus, once we're back on our feet, we'll finally be stable.
I think a lot of posters take it for granted that everyone understands this. Maybe it bears repeating (and testing) occasionally.
Can anyone point to anything Obama has said or done to indicate my understanding is wrong?
Smoking Aces,
Calling the blog owner a "spineless douche" and "pathetic weasel" is not the best way to invite an "intelligent and cogent" rebuttal from him (or anyone else).
There has been nothing in his speeches to indicate that Obama has the delusion we can pay for these stimulus plans in one year.
I'm not talking about whether or not they can be paid for in one year. I'm talking about whether they can be paid for by only increasing tax rates on upper incomes. Big difference.
I'm saying that Obama will have to slam the middle class with tax increases in the near future when he finds that the upper class doesn't own an infinite keg of money he can tap into.
The 2% article was an op ed.
I could write an op ed right now and say Obama's plan, by investing in our future, will pay for its self once our students are once again #1 globally in all age groups, we become self reliant by creating our own renewable energy sources and our health costs become reasonable through reforms innacted today.
Smarter kids now will mean a smarter workforce in the future. Our industries would skyrocket and we would leave the rest of the world behind spurring massive economic growth to generate massive amounts of tax revenue. The transfer of money from our county to others for oil would mean those current billions of dollars would stay in our country, generating massive amounts of tax revenue for the future. With health costs plummeting through smart reforms, business and our Government would thrive once the burden of skyrocketing health care becomes manageable once again.
There, prove my opinion wrong.
They should set up brackets at every 10th percentile or something and redo it every decade or something.
Smoking Aces --
Have you considered the possibility that Nate is not looking at the site right now? It was posted at 7:36pm, and it's not even 2 hours later. Give the man some time to eat dinner before you assume he is not responding to you.
Another thing to consider is the 'tax free' income, tax shelter income and delayed tax income many of the rich and super rich use to reduce their income taxes.
For instance, someone making $150,000 'earned income', earned at a desk job at most companies pays a lot more in income taxes than someone who earns that same $150,000 from 'investments', such as stock holdings, property, etc.
As the decades have passed, there have been many more legal (and illegal) paths to hiding or diverting their income into 'reduced tax' or 'no tax' conduits.
Aces - if you're trying to get "a civil and meaningful response without hurling an insult", then I would suggest you pay Nate the same courtesy. "Do unto others..."
The article you linked to is quite interesting, and I'm looking forward to Nate's analysis. But insulting Nate and everybody around here, while insisting on getting an immediate answer isn't exactly helping your case.
Heck, it's been less than an hour since you posted that article. Give the man a little time to do his analysis, will ya? For all we know he may be having dinner while you're ranting and raving...
The 2% article was an op ed.
Yes, but it was an op-ed that laid out various scenarios based on facts. Those were facts about how much tax revenue the top 2% account for. Again I repeat - facts.
...inane drivel...
There, prove my opinion wrong.
That's your opinion, sh*tbag. Do you see the difference? You offered no factual commentary to back up any of your delusional assertions. The author of the article presented facts.
On a very related note, I'm absolutely stunned at the hypocrisy on here. The liberal maggots present "fact" after "fact" ever day on here and shout down any conservative who uses the slightest inkling of conjecture and opinion.
But now, they've been presented with facts that show a gaping hole in Obama's tax plan and indicate he's almost assuredly going to have to hit the middle class with tax hikes to prevent and exploding national debt...and how do they respond?
With conjecture and opinions.
How sad. How truly sad and pathetic.
Smoking Aces:
If I buy a house for 350k, and yet I only bring in 50k each year, does that mean I'm doomed?
The boring WSJ op-ed plays the same trick that they always do, associating one-off spending with yearly revenues.
Hey, there's Mike in MD, arguably the biggest loudmouth on here. I've seen him more than a few times shouting down conservatives and moderates asking for facts and acting as if he's got the monopoly on them.
I wonder what his dumb ass has to say about the article I posted earlier that Obama will almost assuredly have to hit the middle class with tax increases because the rich simply don't make enough to cover this explosion in spending.
Come on Mike, you two-bit blowhard. You're always good for some bad-mouthing. Talk some shit and defend Obama against this accusation of lying I've levied against him. Defend him, sh*tbag. You always do.
I'm not talking about whether or not they can be paid for in one year. I'm talking about whether they can be paid for by only increasing tax rates on upper incomes. Big difference.
Not really. Typically, a debt is paid off in installments, usually figured on a principal and an interest. And since the stimulus plans are being applied to our debt, then it's that principal and interest that we have to meet every year, not the whole damn thing.
As the author's own math shows, we will gain tax revenue by restructuring our tax brackets and rates. More so than if we don't restructure them. All we have to do after that is make cuts in the right places and keep the economy strong to maintain a surplus and start paying it down.
Our deficit last year was only just shy of $500 billion, compared to our spending these next two years of nearly $4 trillion each. If, we can bring our spending back down to the $2 trillion in 2011, and maintain our tax income that we had in 2008, then we'll be golden. It won't be too hard to drop our spending down that low once we're done with the stimulus spending.
It's pretty simple.
If I buy a house for 350k, and yet I only bring in 50k each year, does that mean I'm doomed?
Relevance?
The boring WSJ op-ed plays the same trick that they always do, associating one-off spending with yearly revenues.
Dismiss it all you want, but the evidence is there that we can't pay for all of this with more taxes on the rich. The middle class will be hit or we'll have an exploding national debt that will cause this country to collapse.
Either admit Obama is a liar, or defend him on a policy that will lead to the ruination of this country. He will increase taxes on the middle class, and he said he wouldn't. He's a liar.
Smoking (something, but it's probably not legal) said...
Wow, demand a few facts or an intelligent rebuttal from a few liberals, and they scatter like mice throughout the barn when you open the big front doors.
Maybe most posters have figured out that you are nothing but a bloviating idiot, who only pushes Freeper talking points, and just scrolls past your idiotic posts.
I do, but the shortness of your message caught my eye, and then another poster commented on it, so that is the ONLY reason I responded.
Present facts that are backed up by legitimate sites you provide links to, and maybe people will take your posts at a more than scroll past seriousness. Keep bloviating the Freeper talking points, and most people will just scroll past.
If, we can bring our spending back down to the $2 trillion in 2011, and maintain our tax income that we had in 2008, then we'll be golden. It won't be too hard to drop our spending down that low once we're done with the stimulus spending.
It's pretty simple.
If you think we can have spending back to $2 trillion by 2011, I've got some property I want to sell you....ocean front....Alberta, Canada....
It's that simple.
SA - Dismiss it all you want, but the evidence is there that we can't pay for all of this with more taxes on the rich.
Your evidence has been debunked, please move on.
Smoking:
You're right. We can't pay for it all in one year. In much the same way that I cannot pay for my house all in one year. In your own words:
"Relevance?"
I'm done with you. Clearly a troll. Just figured I'd write up a quick and simple explanation of the intellectual dishonesty of that article for anyone who missed it.
Smoking something,
The very first opinion is a lie.
President Obama has laid out the most ambitious and expensive domestic agenda since LBJ, and now all he has to do is figure out how to pay for it. On Tuesday, he left the impression that we need merely end "tax breaks for the wealthiest 2% of Americans,"
Obama never claimed to pay for all his programs merely ending tax breaks.
Why would anyone want to argue a disingenuous argument?
You need to learn the difference between opinions and facts before you come on here and act like a three year old and throw tantrums when people ignore your rants.
The 2% Illusion
Present facts that are backed up by legitimate sites you provide links to, and maybe people will take your posts at a more than scroll past seriousness. Keep bloviating the Freeper talking points...
Hey asshole, I've already posted this above, but here it is for you since you are too much of a lazy jerk. I'm not just posting "Freeper talking points." I'm posting facts. And you've done and said nothing to refute my claims.
How is it reasonable to expect Nate to respond to a comment less than two hours old?
All said article proves is that IF Obama taxed the top income tax bracket 100% AND apparently threw out all other income the administration is receiving AND for some reason didn't go through the vast number of other policy changes that could boost the economy and increase revenue, THEN he would be grossly unable to handle his spending goals or deal with the debt without taxing the middle class more. To which the only response is "No duh, so what?". Hell, Nate's mused idea - a higher tax bracket starting at a million - would allow a *lot* of small business owners to dodge the bullet and avoid a lot of complaints mentioned or implied in the criticism of his "social redistribution" approach.
Stuff Obama *could* do? Agressively going after corporations that dodge the taxes whenever they can, making our "highest corporate tax rates in the world" bugaboo a sad joke. Lowering military spending as the troops get called back and the Pentagon is told to spend more on the actual fighting man's logistics and equipment (cost-effective stuff) instead of funding the giant cruiser and missile penis extensions that are basically corporate handouts. Trying to realize the policies put forward in books such as The Green Collar Economy and other sources (such as interest-free loans to homeowners renovating with energy efficiency in mind, or energy share networks where you sell power from your panels or furnace that you're not using to your neighbors to decrease demand on the grid).
That's all stuff that could bring in a lot of revenue (and possibly kickstart several sectors of the economy something fierce). I don't see this so-called necessity of raising taxes on the middle class in there.
I have a bigger problem with progressive taxation. The aim of progressive taxation must be a more equitable distribution of utility, not money (money, by itself is meaningless).
This is fine and well as an objective, but skilled professionals often have a way around this: they can accept jobs with largely non-monetary benefits. For instance, if I work in an air-conditioned office instead of some sweltering satanic mill, my well-being is better off, and it is tax-free.
There is probably some critical level of potential income (the decision to go to school, etc. is made by people that don't have an income yet) at which that tradeoff starts leaning heavily towards people picking quality of life over additional pay.
The problem with that is that taxes begin to lose their progressivity (from a utility sense). People like to hum and haw about how working class voters are ignoring their class interest by voting for tax cuts, but in fact, because the rewards for "real" work are largely monetary the working class resent that tax policy decreasingly generates equitable outcomes.
Is there any reason not to do a taxing based on where you fall in the distribution of incomes in america?
So 0-50% get one rate
50-75% get another
75-85%
85-90%
90-95%
95-100%
Maybe not that distribution, at all.. but something similar?
Then we can all stop worrying if 250k is a lot or not. If it is actually more than a lot of people, pay up. If it isn't, gratz, we're all richer than we thought.
PS: Just to add to the pile of crap, I think 250k for a household of more than 1 person isn't that hard to get to.
As to whether $250,000/year (and we are talking households here) makes somebody rich, give me a freakin' break. You are talking about the wealthiest 2% of the country. If 98% of the country is working or middle class then frankly class has lost all meaning. Lets not forget the first time home-buyer tax credit, either.
You can live here, which takes 89,000 out of your pocket each year (tax deductible).
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/140-West-69Th-Street-Unit-104_New-York_NY_10023_1106990083
Lets say 20,000 in medical expenses a year (which is deductible). And because we wouldn't deign to raise the kids ourselves, we'll hire a nanny for 12,000.
According to H&R block's tax calculator you would pay 29,000 in taxes.
Lets buy a new hybrid Escape every 5 years, so it'll run is 6,000 a year (we get a tax deduction too). Throw in another thousand for various costs, and another thousand for use of public transit.
200/week on food sounds about right. That makes $10,400.
Lets spend 10,000/year to send all 3 kids to private school, since we just love the diversity of New York, but don't want our kids to actually KNOW any minorities. So that runs us $30,000/year.
After all that you still have 52,500 left over for clothes, taxes I didn't cover and other sundries. Not bad considering that is higher than the average pre-tax income in the United States.
@smoking aces,
It really does not matter in this case whether you are conservative/liberal, hate/love Obama, etc., or what point you have.
You are rapidly posting repetitive comments that are mostly filled with invective. You need to bone up on some etiquette.
Make it a little game for yourself! Each time you post a comment without using insults, give yourself a little treat (a cookie, or a hit of whatever magnificent drug you must be smoking, ha ha). You will find that good behaviour becomes so much easier.
Seriously though, I love 538 and read it every day, and I like reading the comment threads, but it is disconcerting to come across such sustained ugliness.
First time poster, by the way.
imfabs,
You're argument is a red herring and doesn't address what I'm trying to say. I realize you can't pay for your house in just one year. The better analogy to what I'm arguing would be like you telling your wife that you could pay for it with a 30-year mortgage on your salary alone and that she wouldn't need to work, only to get a year or two in and ask for her to go work part-time because you can no longer afford it all by yourself.
That's my argument. Obama has told the middle class they will see relief under him. They are going to see higher taxes. It's the only way to pay for his spendthriftiness.
@L_D_O_F
Come on, now, that's all you got. To nitpick on the author's "disingenuous" assessment of Obama's statements. It still doesn't hide the facts. And the facts are that Obama will have to tax the middle class more when he said he wouldn't.
Smoking Aces -
1) I've simply never, ever heard anyone suggest that all new government spending from now to eternity
will be paid for by the top 2% of earners. No-one ever made that claim, so even if the claim isn't true, who cares? However...
2) The Obama budget is a deficit this year largely because of bailouts and stimulus spending. There is not a lot of permanent new spending.
Obama may or may not be wrong, but his actual stated plan is, stimulus and bailout spending now, sustainable spending when the current recession is past.
Much spending that is new is in areas that are expected to lead to net growth of revenues in the future.
3) There are likely to be relative cuts in military spending in the future - withdrawal from Iraq alone assures that.
4) Obama is merely restoring Clinton era tax brackets. Under Clinton, the budget was a surplus year after year.
The article seems to be deceptive. It seems to mischaracterize one time spending in a crisis as permanent. It seems to ignore the possibility that revenues will grow due to economic growth in coming years. It seems to ignore the possibility that some current spending could act as an investment, and pay off with increased future revenues. It seems to ignore that some areas of spending may reduce, or at least increase much less quickly than in the past. And it seems to do all of this in the name of "rebutting" a claim that no-one ever made in the first place.
Ahem: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to [strike]speak[/strike] repeatedly scream out and remove all doubt."
Nice, jrubinstein, real nice. You've been given the opportunity to refute my claims, but instead you recite Proverbs. When it's time for a scripture reading, we'll call on you. But since this is time for intellectual discourse and you have none to offer, you are dismissed.
Even in expensive cities like San Francisco, the average income is far below $250,000. When I lived in the Bay Area, the average income was somewhere in the fifty thousands.
I just looked it up--the median income in San Francisco in 2007 is estimated to be 65,519. That is per household.
I agree we could use more tax brackets, and definitely a higher capital gains tax. But $250,000 is still rich.
harold,
Yes, but it could just as easily be argued that we:
1) will retain much of this new stimulus spending as part of a more permanent plan as liberals (and conservatives too) find it hard to pull the money in the future from some of these projects they've dedicated millions and billions to in the short run.
2)cuts in military spending won't be enough (even the article suggests this).
3)Clinton era tax brackets are irrelevant if you consider a massive wave of new spending relative to his years in office and that those higher brackets are likely to be much more "vulnerable" (I realize that's a tough thing to argue for high income earners) economically in the near future than they were in the Clinton years and total revenues might not add up the way they did back then with fewer top earners.
Sure, the article may make some more pessimistic assumptions than Obama and Co. have planned, but it could just as easily be argued that things won't be nearly as optimistic as he's hoping. There's a lot of conjecture out there, and I tend to believe economists who think we're going to be in a funk for years to come than Obama's rosy outlook that's geared for political reasons to make it look like he's going to be turning things around.
Well, looks like I've pwned this whole thread.
And as for Mike in MD, I've done the equivalent of shoving his face into a fecal matter filled toilet and not letting up until he stopped breathing, thereby suffocating in a big watery bowl of sh*t.
Is there one intelligent liberal on here? Just one? That's all I ask. Some of you have had nice rebuttals - you know who you are - but you didn't address the issue that Obama is lying about middle class tax cuts.
The rest of you offered nothing about drivel and insults of me being a troll or blowhard.
Well, that may be, but that doesn't change the facts. And the facts I've presented are stubborn things when thrown back in your faces.
Just because Obama believes different things than you does not make him a liar.
And if I thought you were arguing in good faith, I might try to rebut your claims. But you're just shitting all over the thread for the sake of shitting over the thread, so I'm going to leave it all at that.
You might expect (or even assume) that the highest marginal rate is the marginal rate at the highest income. But this isn't actually the case in today's US tax system, once you combine the income tax, the AMT, payroll taxes, and state taxes. Last year I worked through a relatively simple example of marginal rates for a single California resident with only wage income, and the graph of marginal rates over income is much bumpier than you'd expect. (The highest marginal rate in my example was for income between $197980 and $289900.)
Where's Mike in MD? I want him to come back and talk some more lame shit like he did earlier. Where is he? Scared?
I guess if I posted a detailed chart that showed just how deep and wide his vagina is, he'd still come back with nothing but an accusation of me parroting "Freeper talking points."
I guess that's the shitbag coward way of answering an accusation. Don't offer anything intelligent, just resort to ad hominem attacks.
Well, here's your chance Mike in MD. You always act like you've got a monopoly on the truth. The facts. All of that. You claim reality has a liberal bias, right?
Prove it. Talk shit you scumbag. You shout down and harass every other poster on here who doesn't agree with you. How does it feel to have it dished to you? You haven't said a @^#$*@&# thing that even remotely counts as an intelligent response to what I've posted. I'm waiting...
Guess I'll keep waiting on you, being mentally handicapped and completely warped and all....don't worry, they have places for people like you who suffer from a warped sense of reality and are completely manic - the mental hospital.
Just because Obama believes different things than you does not make him a liar.
No, but saying that the middle class will see lower taxes when, in fact, he will have to raise taxes on them to pay for his bullsh*t is very much a lie.
Quit changing the subject, you assholes!!!
Nate:
You need to superimpose the US growth rate on the tax data. The high growth in the fifties was clearly a consequence of winning WWII without damage to our industrial base, however I believe there is a positive correlation between economic growth and the top marginal tax rate. You could also look at corporate tax rate trends which are even more disturbing. Bring back the Eisenhower tax code and rates!
SA,
Our Pariah
That art in Crawford
Shallow be thy game
Our investigation come
Thy jail time be done
In ADX Florence as you did in Abu Ghraib
Amen, mothafucka
The law is coming to get you, neocons. Better run while you still can.
Personally, I would not respond to someone calling me a piece of shit and assholes except perhaps to say, "Are you still here?"
I bet that guy is great with the ladies.
Codemac- I think you may be on to something with your post, except I would break up the 0-50% bracket as there is a huge difference in a person working full time making minimum wage and living in a weekly motel and someone solidly middle class at the 50th percentile. Also, how would you base the percentile off the prior year's returns? I think it might make the tax code even more complex, although very progressive.
Smoking Aces:
I'm... stunned.
You're being on-topic!
Decisively so!
I've been reading a book called 'Perfectly Legal: The Covert Campaign to Rig Our Tax System To Benefit the Super Rich-And Cheat Everybody Else' By David Cay Johnson. I highly recommend it. It's really unbiased, too.
So, I'll give you a response to your query.
Ever hear of the alternative minimum tax?
Line 42, form 1040.
The AMT was put into the tax code in 1969 to limit the deductions the extremely wealthy took. However, with tax cut after tax cut, it's been creeping up on increasing numbers of the middle class, and if the Bush Tax 'cuts' aren't repealed, the Tax Policy center estimates that 60% of the revenue from the alternative minimum tax will come from households earning $100-$500, while the share paid by the $1 million + club go from 22% to 6%.
The Bush Tax 'cuts' would actually result in a net increase in taxation (from 2003 to 2013) of 665.9 Billion dollars, mostly from the middle class, because the AMT has a set amount of possible deductions (including for state taxes and children's education) and once that allotment is used up, it's gone, and the taxpayer must pay the higher amount between the regular tax code and the AMT.
The rich, meanwhile, could still take the Bush Tax cut and combine it with tax-free income that ordinary people can't get, and end up paying less while still avoiding the AMT.
So, Obama is already cutting taxes for the middle class by repealing the tax cuts.
You may be right that he's breaking a promise, but he's also trying to balance the burden more fairly. Could you do better, if you were a liberal?
I would love to see an analysis of the relative tax burden over time of the top 1% or 5% or 10% of income earners.
Given the following alternatives:
1) the abstract possibility of having to pay higher taxes in the future even though in the immmediate present Obama is actually lowering my taxes, while at the same time seeing the payoffs many times over from the investments in our society that we are making now,
or
2) pulling the rug out from the only entity that has the ability to spend money at this time and is thus the only thing propping up this economy against total collapse, looking at a future in which there will be no jobs and no income on which to owe taxes in the first place,
As a member of the middle class I will gladly choose #1. One thing I haven't really seen from any of the anti-"pork" crusaders is leading by example, i.e. which of their personal earmarks are the anti-spending crusaders in Congress willing to give up? Because until they do that, they are just being hypocrites. And it turns out that they are mostly full of crap, because in reality, spending is "pork" when it goes to someone else's district, but "bacon" when it goes to your own district.
I will proudly support spending programs including increased funding for scientific research, education, renewable energy, and reducing the healthcare burden on American businesses, and I suffer no illusions about the possibility that I may pay higher taxes in the future. My support for these programs is nonetheless undiminished. Because when you cut through all the bull, you realize that most (with some exceptions) of the silly-sounding examples of "waste" that are being trumpeted, are actually considered important by their constituents, and in fact constitute a tiny percentage of the budget.
The crying over "pork" is misdirected anger. Now bank bailouts, on the other hand, are in another class altogether, orders of magnitude larger sums of money involved, and of dubious economic value, and on this count I find some common ground with those freaking out over the budget right now.
Nate
Interesting article.
However much of Obama's budget can be covered by making tax rates more progressive, I think the public would approve. Obviously the goal would be to arrive at a slope that doesn't stifle entrepreneurship, but given the way in which congresspeople get elected, I doubt if there's much chance of any real stifling.
There will always be those who shriek that any increase in their tax rate is communistic, that taxes are unamerican, and that the invisible hand of the marketplace is attached to Jesus' arm. Unfortunately for them, the candidate Jesus was rooting for got his ass kicked in November--or did he?
If you can clear $5,000,000 a year without having any employees, ripping anyone off, or gambling, then maybe you can claim to have earned it on your own. Otherwise, you owe a big chunk of it to the society and system that made your earnings possible, whether you admit it or not.
Wow. It got pretty, uh, loud in here.
Smoking Aces, you troll.
No one gives any real thought to someone who speaks in such a condescending and arrogant tone. You make Rush look like Ghandi.
And also, if the rich and corporations are actually made to pay their fair share, I will also support higher middle class taxes--it will obviously cost a lot of money to clean up the mess supply-side BS made of our economy.
And anyone making over $250K a year can STFU about this paltry increase in marginal tax rate. It is hard to believe how entitled and selfish these people have revealed themselves to be when "official" unemployment has passed 8%, U6 unemployment is pushing 20%, and the formerly-middle-class are living in tent cities in California.
I've heard many people propose a flat tax in the US. And I've wondered if this couldn't be made to work... just make it a flat wealth tax rather than a flat income tax.
I haven't really given it enough thought though. Does anyone know any analysis of how that might play out?
Nate, just a note to say that careful wording is important on this topic. When you say...
"but this rate only kicked in once you made $5,000,000 or more in income"
You really mean...
"only applied to income above of $5,000,000"
SA,
Your "facts" are nothing more than conjecture about something that Obama has not ever said. It is nothing more than an article built entirely on a strawman.
People have debunked your crap over and over and you just scream louder.
Ergo, it is bullshit and you are a troll of the lowest order.
Hiding yourself under another name Ass Rider, doesn't hide the stench of your idiocy and psychosis.
Any takers on when he starts threating to beat up Nate again?
Nate,
I have a request. Is it possible to generate a historical chart showing the fraction of income tax revenue from the top income bracket?
This is ultimately the comparison we all need, no?
Bruce
I like the idea of a millionaire tax bracket with a 50% rate. I'd like to see us bring back that high up bracket that only touches the truly rich.
@ ajpuckett:
Re your question about which of the anti-"pork" crusaders don't insert their own earmarks, it turns out that there are five in the Senate. Per the Washington Post on-line article about today's passage of the omnibus spending bill:
"The independent watchdog group Taxpayers for Common Sense found 8,570 disclosed earmarks in the bill, worth $7.7 billion. Only five senators did not add pet projects to the measure, including Republicans McCain, Jim DeMint (S.C.) and Tom Coburn (Okla.), and Democrats Feingold and McCaskill."
I completely agree with your argument, by the way. And I would add that the total amount of earmarks in the spending bill is not only less than 2% of the full bill, but is also WAY below the non-earmarked amounts that the Pentagon continues to spend on weaponry with no post-Cold War purpose, projects which are kept alive by the political demands of the regions that profit from them and thus constitute real pork in the classic sense.
Simply an excellent post. It might be interesting to see what the marginal tax rate at $250,000 (2009 dollars) would be throughout the ages.
SA -
I believe that you might actually believe some of what you say, so to add some sound absorbing material to this echo chamber I will attempt to reason with you.
It appears to me that your main forcefully argued conjecture is that Obama will raise taxes on people making less than $250,000 a year, contrary to his previous statements.
There is no reason at all to assume that this is true. Your posted article claims that Obama could not possibly balance the budget this year if he kept his promise, and that is of course true. Obama will simply choose like so many people before him to put the United States farther into debt instead of raising taxes.
Obama claims that he will reduce the deficit in a few years, but he never said the budget would be completely balanced. He is too pragmatic for that.
A BBC Correspondent asks an Iranian, an American, and an Ethiopian what their opinions are on voting to ration food.
The Iranian asks, "What is voting?"
The American asks, "What is rationing?"
and the Ethiopian asks, "What is food?"
Yet another MR clone. That Greasemonkey script didn't get here fast enough..
Thanks for this post Nate. I've been scratching my head about the %80 and %90 numbers top tier income tax rates that have been tossed around here. For good reason, they've been given in very poor context as to whom they applied to.
For those of you that have been doing this, please, before repeating this numbers stop and think about them a moment. I know it's tough, critical thinking and digging out the real goods is difficult. Failure can happen. Plus sometimes it's downright inconvenient, too, because it no longer says exactly what you want it to say :) But in the long run it's a good thing.
For motivation try thinking of Smoking Aces as the cautionary poster child for what you become if you fail to apply critical thinking skills. :D
P.S. One request Nate, could you please include some vertical lines next time for these types of graphs? It's really hard to eyeball to a given year when the gradients of the axis are so small. Thanks.
I call comment moderation by the morning.
But it's a shame that Mule - er, Aces came in. At least I can just scan over Pete's posts. Aces makes sure you see him.
That said...I'm half and half. I've drunk a bit of the Kool-Aid that says "if you're rich, you deserve to be rich." And...really, I think VERY few people make $75m a year.
But it'd be good to disincentive executives from giving themselves huge bonuses and the like and...you know, invest the money. Not in mirages, but in actual projects, you know?
And if the top 2% of wage earners hold 20% of wealth, well...
I made a zillion making online Porn for Mormons! Their appetite for porn would make Larry Flynt proud!
ask me how!
jerkinitinprovo.com
The trolls may be trolling, but they actually do have a point. The President may say that the cost of the stimulus package is a one-time event, but somehow we seem to have a "one-time event" every couple of years, and we always seem to fund it by borrowing.
Out here in the private sector, individuals and businesses have one-time costs too. But the private sector handles these in many ways: cutting costs ("unexpected medical bills, I'd better keep driving my old car for another year"), saving ahead of time ("great, I have enough to put a down payment on a house now!"), insuring against them, and, as a last resort, a limited amount of borrowing. Private sector lenders try to measure potential borrowers' indebtedness and generally avoid lending more to someone who's chronically in debt.
Somehow, government doesn't think it needs to follow these same strictures. It just pays for everything with debt, rationalizing it all as one-time, unpredictable expenses.
Well, that's just not true. The government should have known that, sooner or later, there was going to be some sort of one time, unpredictable expense, and saved for it. But no government--not even Clinton's--did.
None of them ever do. After all, long-term responsibility doesn't win the election in two years.
I love these posters who maintain that $250K a year "isn't rich." What world are they living in? Look at the quality of life you can buy for that money. At most stages in history, that kind of luxury was enjoyed not by the rich, but pretty much only by kings.
You're sharing a nation with people who can't afford basic medical care, and a planet with people who are starving to death. Anyone who can afford a house, a car and a vacation every year is rich. Anyone on $250K is absolutely loaded.
The time series would be even more dramatic if you plotted not inflation adjusted dollars but the percentile of the income distribution at which the top rate kicked in.
We have a low top threshold in inflation adjusted dollars *and* a big increase in inequality *and* increased average real incomes.
The 99.9th percentile is much higher than it used to be in inflation adjusted dollars.
We have a rate for the top 1% (or so). How many families had the gross income to make the top bracket in the past ?
Our friends on the Wall Street Journal opinion page are trying to have their cake and eat it, too.
They demonstrate with only a bit of cheating for rhetorical purposes, which doesn't affect the final result, that congress can't spend $4 trillion ever year and pay for it with only an income tax increase without a ludicrous level of taxation.
But what's the point? Nobody is proposing to spend $4 trillion a year, and you'll notice they didn't come right out and say they were opposed to bailing out the banking system, which is where most of the money is going. Could this be because their readership depends on the banking system working?
So they're favor spending most of the money, they just want to use it as as a club to bash Obama. I'm sure they share the republican view that more of the stimulus should have been tax cuts, but that's still money.
They just don't like or trust Obama, and they are affronted by his immediate reversal of all the conservative executive orders. It's a slap in the face. Stem cells, abortion, signing statements, hiring Shinseki, future supreme court justices. They hear it as Obama saying "screw you, I'm taking out the trash." It's hard to see it as a matter of spending, when they spent money like water. It's not the money, It's who is spending it and what it's being spent on. Global warming (see below)- it's a myth, etc.
As for cap and trade, I'm against it. It's a bureaucratic nightmare with endless ways to game the system. Better a tax. However whether it's a back door tax increase depends on whether it's returned in some form of rebate. The nature of the plan and it's revenue neutrality are separate issues.
If you want something to get upset about, how about this. GLOBAL WARMING IS IMPOSSIBLE. Why? because we don't have enough fossil fuels left. It turns out some people were overestimating our reserves by a few hundred percent. We'll meet the best case warming scenarios. That's the good news.
The bad news is that if we don't come up with some replacement energy and a lot of conservation, it will be cold and dark in the caves where we'll be living.
I can attest that 250K is not loaded.
First, I'm fine with a progressive tax system. I get that. Second, I voted for Obama, so I knew my tax rate would go up (we're just barely over 250, by a few hundred dollars).
Third, 250K in the DC area is not rich. We have 1/2 of a duplex in a gentrifying neighborhood, and it goes for 650K in this market. 650K for 1300sq feet. The mortgage is close to 3K a month. We own 1 car. We bike alot. Shop at Costco. Things would add up more when we have kids.
Point being, there's alot of disdain that is getting, somewhat, thrown at people like me. It's supposed that once you hit 250K you live a lifestyle of extravangance. We don't. No yachts, No fancy cars, no fancy house, no fancy vacation.
If you want to raise revenue on the *really* rich, tax luxury goods. Like Yachts.
But don't tell us barely upper class households to STFU about our taxes when many of us are living frugal lifestyles (that's how I got here). I got tired of the Reps judging folks (and being hypocrites) and insulting economists (that is what I am). Unless you know, you really do want those of us Obamacrats out of your party.
Why have brackets at all? Create a calculus curve that begins at the lowest taxable income and ends at a guesstimate of the nation's highest 0.1% of population's average income. determining your taxes would be as simple as plugging your income as the X axis point and determining the Y axis value.
I love the idea of a flat tax with a few deductions (like mortgage interest one house) and that's it...maybe one other bracket above $250,000...
the strangest news story of the day, the evangelical movement is dying:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html
Sam - I've always thought the same thing. You don't even need calculus; just define the percentage paid as a function of income. I've never heard an argument for why brackets are preferable.
Nate,
Can you post a plot of the median "after tax" income of each tax bracket over the years? It'd be interesting to see how the various brackets fared as the threshold and rates varied.
The hilarious thing is that SA didn't even wait two hours to start sputtering and cursing at Nate- looking back on the thread he waited TEN MINUTES. And then again for another TWO minutes.
Yeah, trolltastic.
In Britain we are highly amused by the sudden appearance of fiscal conservatives, who have remained silent for 8 years of record spending on killing your own & other people. But to commit money to socially responsible projects within America?
Sorry this is too transparent. "do as I say not as I do" armchair politics of the worst kind. Just admit that fiscal republicans who aren't in control anymore want to pay less tax & be done with it, except in the cases where everyone elses tax money is paying for munitions & technology which goes straight into your bank account. After 8 years of feeding everyone else your crap "because it's essential for America & our economy" (read: essential for ME!) accept you have no right to complain.
Look! Money! Let's steal it!
For those who want to get rid of tax-exempt income: first you need to understand why tax-exempt investment vehicles are out there in the first place. It is debt issued by states and municipalities at below-market rates.
If it wasn't tax-exempt, investors would require the state/municipality to pay a higher rate in order to get it bought. Investors' money goes where it is treated best.
Government is the entity that wants to have its cake and eat it too, not the private sector.
It's amazing how America became "let's stick it to them" country. Especially when it comes to the "poor" hating the "rich". Instead of striving to have a country where no one has to pay taxes on their income, or at least where everyone pays the same amount (this would make Washington stop unnecessary spending in a week.) people are coming up and then trying to justify all sorts of ways to screw other people.
The funny part is that by enslaving "the rich", "the poor" are only hurting themselves and in the end will become even bigger slaves.
Imfabs--
Sir, Please be advised that the purchase of a house represents a significant hit to one's income for thirty (30) years. One also adds in property taxes, insurance, utilities (as a separate expense item--my experience has been that some utilities, e.g., trash cartage and water, are usually part of apartment rent). This is a long-term fixed/semi fixed expenditure, hardly a "one-off" expenditure.
Its fairly revolting to me that America still clings to the concept that people that making $250k+ a year are "rich". I have no problem with paying higher taxes because my income is high, but to have the classifications end with "250k+" makes no sense. Two moderately successful engineers can easily earn that much with a dual career household. Is that what should define the ultimate tax bracket? Two 60-hour a week working professionals? We are the "elite" of American financial society? Hardly...
Anyone out there want this kind of income? Work your butt off for 7 years getting a master's degree (MS in something desirable), borrow a crapload of money to do it if you have to (neither of my parents finished college before I was in high school). Get a job when you graduate, and then (surprise!) work your butt off some more for 5 years until you've established yourself as a diligent, hardworking professional. Work another 10 years and 125k is not an unreasonable income to expect with bonuses (provide the economy isn't, well).
Third, 250K in the DC area is not rich. We have 1/2 of a duplex in a gentrifying neighborhood, and it goes for 650K in this market. 650K for 1300sq feet. The mortgage is close to 3K a month. We own 1 car. We bike alot. Shop at Costco. Things would add up more when we have kids.
My wife and I make, on average, $70k a year; that's about $180k less than you.
You'll pay about $54k more in taxes than us. (Ignoring deductions). OK, that's pretty big. Your take-home income is only $126k higher than ours.
Housing is the biggest cost-of-living difference, so let's subtract that, Our mortgage is $1k a month, so your housing costs are greater than ours by $2k per month... that's $24k a year. Probably half of that difference is in tax-deductible interest, which means you deduct about $12k more than we do... lowering your tax burden by $4k or so. You pay $24k more, but effectively get $4k back, so that's $20k.
Your after-tax, after-housing income is therefore about $106k higher than ours. Or, in more expressive terms, for food, clothes, gas, utilities, insurance, medical, car payments, etc, we have about $45k available, and you have about $150k available.
Gas, food, clothing, and so on, do not cost twice as much in DC as here in Ohio--but hey, for the purposes of easy math I'll give that to you. Also for easy math, I'll say that we end up using all that $45k on necessities, suggesting you use $90k on necessities. (If we both spend less than that--and I know my wife and I spend less than $45k a year on necessities--the math below would give you even more cash at the end.)
After subtracting that $90k from the $150k you have, you have $60k left in discretionary income, that is, non-necessary items.
Your discretionary income--the cash you have available for non-necessary items--is, assuming worst-case cost of living situation for you, more than our total take-home income.
That said, I would not by any stretch classify us as poor or struggling to make ends meet. Please don't try to suggest that you are struggling to make ends meet.
Unless you're paying $60k a year in credit card bills, in which case I have even less pity.
No one "struggles" on $250k. You can live frugally and within your means, which is laudable. Maybe you don't have a yacht or eat steak every night. But don't try to paint the picture that your car is a rust-bucket and you eat peanut butter sandwiches and mac-and-cheese to survive--because I know people like that.
Government is the entity that wants to have its cake and eat it too, not the private sector.
Seriously? Both sides like cake, but businesses like it much, much more. See the Banks and Wall Street currently.
I'm not sure why some people try to categorize us as lower income, middle income, and 'rich'. For one thing, I don't define rich as income, I degine it as wealth. If you have a billion dollars but made negative money last year, you're still rich, sorry.
The word people are looking for is upper class. I don't see how people can confuse upper class with rich. Upper class people aren't invited to the coming out parties of rich people, don't go to the same schools, don't buy the same things, aren't in the same neighborhoods, etc.
Used to be, the description was by your occupation:
Poor: No regular job.
Lower Class: Janitors, migrant workers.
Middle Class: "collar" workers, ranging on the low end from assembly line and secretaries to plumbers and mid-level managers.
Upper Class: "Professionals", such as doctors, lawyers, engineers, politicians, and executives.
Rich: Well, if you're rich, you by definition don't have to work for a living- your money does your work for you. You might still work, of course, but that would be to control your investments, not for the earnings themselves.
Eliminating the upper class doesn't work. The rich and the upper class are two completely different strata.
Hey, let's put it this way, Nate. In 2010, you're likely to make over $250K thanks to book sales. Do you think that Paris Hilton is going to invite you over to her parties? Do you think that you'll be able to walk into all the exclusive clubs? Think that you'll be able to get chateaus in Vail for free? I don't think so either.
Folks like Smoking Aces should be banned from posting here. His demeanor and language are just not appropriate in an environment where people are looking to have real, honest discussions about politics and policy. At the very least, I'm disappointed that so many folks fell for his act and fed his trolling ways. I, as well as many other women, will probably contribute less and less to the discussion here if folks continue to feed such trolls.
Smoking Aces needs a job... oh, wait, I think he does have a job. I get the impression that someone who spends so much time so rapidly posting challenges and statements of Nate's refusal to accept the challenge less than 15 minutes later is probably being paid to push buttons on blogs. LOL! Wow... more like a smoldering deuce.
I'm putting on my Repulican hat for this post
1. On the subject of 250k being alot of money. With a college degree you can get a job starting at around 50k. By the time you are 30 via grad school or 8 years working experience most white collar jobs pay in the 100k range. So at 30 you are already up to 200k assuming you are married by this point. By 40 you and your spouse should be up to 150k each if not much more. That's 300k.... Is that really rich or is that most white collar hard working educated families in metropolitan areas????
2. On Obama's budget. Obama's budget numbers don't add up for several reasons
2a. He is relying on cuts to government programs that will never pass congress
2b. He is painting an overly rosy picture on Iraq (thinknig we can reduce expenses quickly) and on Afghansitan (thinking we can begin a new war on the cheap)
2c. He is forecasting unrealistic economic growth (total recovery in 2010 and over 4% growth in 2011)
3. How the middle and lower class will get hosed.
3a. Over 50% of people no longer pay taxes. That is unsustainable over the long term
3b. Under current democratic policy people with health insurance already (The vast majority) will pay for the same benefits
3c. Under current enviromental policy. The cost of energy will dramatically increase.
Now realistically it's not as bad. There are enough moderates in congress who aren't going to drink the koolaid and pass these rosy budgets and spending programs.
I still like the guy. I think his education policy speech was great. I am hopeful he will be open to compromise on the healthcare plane. I am a little worried about the scope of the energy bill. Overall I am still worried about the scope of what he is trying to do based on reliance of unrealistic revnue forecasts (too high) and unrealistic real costs of what he is proposing (too low)
Eric,
I was not suggesting that we "struggle to make ends meet." I would be delusional to claim such.
We claim about 40K in pretax savings, as my wife and I max out our 403b, our 529 savings plan, and pay for full health insurance etc. The bulk of the monetary difference in discretionary income is explained by that, and that both my wife and I are self-funding further graduate school. Myself alone is 12K a year (no deduction from that due to our income). (No debt other than mortgage because we're very frugal)
Like Ryan said, two working professionals in one house are hardly elite society members. My best friends in this area make 150K, 50K, 45K, and 35K. You could not figure out which of us make what if you saw us out anywhere.
PS: If you want to know about frugality, I moderate the GetRichSlowly.Org Community forums.
I don't know, Brittany. It looks like SA did try and have a real and honest discussion about politics and policy - in spite of his language and demeanor - and no one could provide an intelligent response to the article he posted.
He made the case that Obama will have to raise the taxes on middle class Americans, used data to back his point up, and said Obama is lying if he acts like this isn't going to happen.
I'm sorry, but as an unbiased moderate who leans slightly left of center, I'd have to say SA dominated this thread. It will be interesting to see if Nate can come up with a response that addresses this.
I have no problem with raising the top brackets or creating another bracket for $1 million and above. What I'd like to see changed or eliminated is the AMT which really hits people living in higher cost/higher tax areas hard. Since mortgage interest isn't included in the calculation it nails people who live in states with high income and property taxes - NY, NJ, CA, etc and it can hit families with income as low as $75-100K which is not unusual in these places.
I'm confused by this item. Are we allowed to bring back the phrase "bloated plutocrat" into popular usage again or not?
Dammit, Nate, I posted my question 13 seconds ago. Why haven't you answered it yet? Is it because you're chicken?
(brentrax) > Private sector lenders try to measure potential borrowers' indebtedness and generally avoid lending more to someone who's chronically in debt.
That isn't really true strictly speaking. The number of private business without long-term promises to pay are very small. Further it's quite typical for the absolute size of the debt to climb over time as the business itself grows. So having debt and taking on exceptional one-time-cost debt is pretty normal. The important thing is over the long term keeping your assets out ahead of your liabilities.
Now you have to do a translation to a government scenario for measure assets (and even liabilities). Really it arguable with shades of "correct" for even just businesses. Accounting can be thought of as another branch of statistics, and just as ripe for abuse by "creative imaginations".
Getting back to this idea that you can't have something only one-time. That's a complete red herring. Because you can change a policy that is causing the asset-to-liability ratio to move in the wrong direction. That is exactly what the Whitehouse intends to do by not Bush's top-end tax cut. In truth it is a NON-action. Little wonder that a group that is framing that as an earth shattering change claims that you can't ever kill a one-time policy decision. They are looking in the mirror, being part of the problem.
R:
Ah, I know of GRS. That actually explains some things about you, and means I misinterpreted some things; mea culpa. Like I said at the end of my post, living frugally is laudable (my wife and I are debt-free other than the mortgage and a few final student loans). And yeah--the fact that you're saving that money rather than spending it on luxury goods does mean something, and I agree with the general idea of luxury taxes but wouldn't be certain how to actually lay that out in legal form.
I retract some of the bile but not the entirety of the substance, though the substance doesn't apply to you. There are some $250k earners out there who claim to be "making ends meet." There was s story about one such Manhattan couple a few days ago (WSJ? NYT? I don't remember). I have the feeling that most of those people are $100k or more in non-collateral debt.
I guess to me the scariest thing about the economy is the people who are living well beyond their means. I know some of these people--$75k earners paying $25k of that in non-deductible interest and another $10k on big frivolities--vacations, huge TVs.
So, I guess my point is that, you're right: two working professionals are not part of elite society--unless they choose to live beyond their means, and then when those people claim to be struggling, well, yeah, something's wrong.
John:
SA didn't even try for honest discussion. His first post starts with the sentence "Here's a good read for Nate and all of you other idiots so full of sh*t that you can't see straight." He then claims to have won the thread because there were no responses within 4 minutes of his previous posts. Perhaps his thoughts deserve a response--hell, I might try to post one--but I won't do it because he deserves a response.
R-Boy:
You can afford to pay for graduate school out-of-pocket. Consider yourself lucky. You are not having to struggle to get by.
(PS: Which gentrifying neighborhood? Cap Hill? U Street? If you bought west of 14th, I have no sympathy!)
> and no one could provide an intelligent response to the article he posted.
I actually noticed something up-thread that addressed at least part of it. You do need to look closely at SA's stuff but there are some deeply inherent problems with it. There is a curious that comes with quantity, even when at heart the individual parts are of really, really bad "quality". It takes work to explain the problems, a lot of work. So SA comes in a takes a big TURD of a dump in this thread (at least he stayed on OT this time, that's an improvement).
So it'd take a lot of work and time to go through it ALL. But there has been a piecemeal start of dealing with all the fallacies within it ... if you don't actually notice some of the more glaring ones?
On $250K being a lot of money. Well, yes, people who work hard and get an education and borrow to pay for that education should reasonably expect to be rewarded for it. I am in the fifth year of a Ph.D. program so I am also in the fifth year of living on a stipend of less than $30K, and it is certainly tiring and frustrating, but I manage to survive. I'm pursuing an academic career so I never expect to be paid more than say $100K (in today's dollars). But I would consider even that a lot of money compared to how I have lived the past five years. Those of you arguing that $250K isn't rich have no idea how tone-deaf you sound. Yes, you're not Warren Buffet or Bill Gates, but at that level you should still be damn grateful for what you have and not complain about paying your taxes, especially when employment is dropping like a rock. If your new tax burden is going to be too hard on you, I'll gladly offer to trade incomes with you so you can avoid the onerous tax increase which only applies to the portion of your income beyond $250K, of course.
> Perhaps his thoughts deserve a response--hell, I might try to post one--but I won't do it because he deserves a response.
That's part of it too. But I think it is important to eventually deal with it, I did take the time to deal with his Crazy directly in the last thread. But I find it very draining mentally when the fallacies are so thick on the ground but also when you highly suspect that Smoking Aces isn't actually reading the responses.
It is much easier dealing with this from someone more grounded in reality and who is truly interested in two-way communication.
That's 300k.... Is that really rich or is that most white collar hard working educated families in metropolitan areas????
I'm not against people who make a lot of money, in fact I'm decently well on my way to doing so. However, the people who are trying to act like making 250k is normal are crazy. 250k a year is over 18 times the amount someone who makes minimum wage would get for working full-time for a year. Plenty of people live in metropolitian areas with these sorts of wages, some actually get by on much less. If Manhattan is too expensive, then move to the Bronx or Jersey. If DC is too expensive, then move to Baltimore. If San Francisco is too expensive, then move to Oakland. I would love to live in downtown Minneapolis, but I don’t want to spend $1200 a month on a one-bedroom apartment, so I live less than 15 minutes away and only pay about half as much rent. This would of course mean that you have to actually live with minorities and other people who aren’t as affluent as you. That might acually be Progressive, so we can’t have that. The fact is, it takes a lot of money to appear Progressive. You have to buy your expensive condo in an urban area with low crime, shop at Whole Foods, drive an expensive hybrid and send your kids to private school. That doesn’t even include your exorbinant student debt you have because you had to go to a 35k a year private school so you could discuss Marx with a bunch of other White, upper-middle class students like yourself.
If you make 250K a year and pay 36k in rent/mortgage, that would mean you were spending about 14% of your gross income on housing. There are many people who can not afford housing without spending almost 50% of their gross income and they are certainly not living in as nice of a place.
From the comments here it is clear that almost noone here has ever been poor. I don’t mean eating ramen and drinking PBR in grad school poor. I mean growing up sharing a bedroom with your mother, getting free school lunch, and shopping a thrift stores. I mean going to a school where whites were a minority and being a vegetarian because it was cheap. A lot of people here might as well become Republicans, because it is obvious that they are completely blind to the plight of the average American. Someone has to pay for Obama’s progressive agenda and its not all going to be from mythical “super-wealthy” people who will have to make no sacrifices. If you are in the top 2% of income, you are not “middle-class”. If you were, then everyone would be “middle-class” except Bill Gates and the homeless guy you saw on your way to work.
We don't need tax brackets. We don't need an abomintation called the IRS. We need a flat tax and a government that is held accountable for its spending. I fail to see why people who earn more should pay more. This mentality feeds the welfare state of mind that is taking over this country. Thats all I have to say about this.
Eric,
No harm, no foul. I'll admit I'm not the typical person found on frugality sites, but hey, I'm a socially conscious capitalist like Buffett. We despise the Trumps of the free market.
The story you reference was linked to I think on GRS.
I agree with your feelings about folks making decent money living beyond their means. I don't understand it, and it frustrates me when I see friends of mine do it. They're making Vegas bets with their life.
As far as cost of living, I do think that needs to be factored into "wealth" and tax calculations. I could move to Atlanta but I'd keep my GS designation and enjoy a much lower cost of living. It' astonishing that our small 1/2 of a duplex is worth more than my parent's 4 BDR retirement house on a lake near Metro Atlanta. Staggering. They have grass! We don't!
I was lucky enough to have my grandfather alive, who lived through the GD, to provide me with some life lessons I took to heart.
I know the coalition that elected Obama was from the poor, the racial minorities, and from upper-class working professionals. That's why I caution the use of harsh rhetoric, it's liable to push members of the coalition away (NoVa was a large reason why Obama carried VA).
To Mason:
Nah, I don't live in DC proper. 10% taxes are not to my liking. I live across the river in VA, and there's neighborhoods gentrifying there too.
To K,
I already live with minorities. Our community was gentrifying and then stopped. There are housing projects less than 2 miles away that I teach PF for free at. And a hispanic neighborhood I'll be starting a similiar program soon.
You can't just say "Move somewhere else." That's wholly insenstive for a wide variety of reasons.
Your attitude is the attitude that I don't appreciate among Democrats? If you don't want us fiscal conservatives and social liberals in your party, I guess we'll just have to go elsewhere. None of us grew up poor? Please. I grew up next to Projects in ATL. My family was poor. I studied very hard, got bullied, called a nerd, etc, but I did change my life and improve my station in it. No one helps the poor white kid from the wrong side of the tracks.
As someone already noted near the top, it would be nice to see the threshhold amount expressed as "percentage of income earners."
> From the comments here it is clear that almost noone here has ever been poor.
There are dangers in those assumptions, though I guess maybe you were talking about people that commented on the $250K thing (which I haven't)? ;) I spent a good portion of my teenage years without running water/indoor plumbing. There was also brief period of time, weeks only, at the end of post secondary where affording a pack of no-name noodles wasn't always an option, and I couldn't afford fuel to drive to my parents to get a care package (I lived on a farm so while having dodgy amenities I was never actually hungry ). I have come to the conclusion that hunger sucks. :P
I will agree though that someone from my background, and who has keep that perspective accurately in mind, isn't likely to think of $250K as "getting by" without looking in the mirror and saying "oh boy, this has a lot to do with MY decisions, doesn't it".
P.S. That said it should be kept in mind that $250K/year does not mean the same thing in all parts of the country. This tax rate reversion would likely be a much harder thing for Obama to sell politically if the Republicans weren't so heavily vested into areas where $250K/year is very clearly upper-class.
R-Boy:
True that about the CoL in Atlanta! When my wife was considering taking a job at CDC, we were amazed how much more our grades could buy down there. They made our little ranch in Franconia look positively modest. Of course, the central American boarding house across the street helps at that, but they're clean and don't hang out on the stoop. At least we got rid of the guy next door to them who would buy and strip junk cars in his yard...
And we have grass. :-P
Forgot to add as someone living in the NYC area that $250k isn't too shabby. Not what I'd call "rich" for a family of four, but a very very good upper-middle-class income. I'd also expect someone making that much to have decent health care and retirement planning.
> No one helps the poor white kid from the wrong side of the tracks.
Ok, I didn't grow up in Atlanta, but this has the reek of "well I did this all by myself" fallacy. Of course people cut you slack, help you out. But I've seen this stuff very much discounted. I don't know if it's an entitlement thing or a troubling-seeing-it-from-someone-elses-POV thing?
Further if nobody is helping the poor white kid from the wrong side of the tracks isn't that actually a failure of society? One you might help address?
Everyone talks too much about income tax and do not give enough weight to all the other taxes that most people pay such as Sales tax, property taxes, payroll tax and other state and local taxes. In most place, these taxes are quite high and quite regressive, for people of low income they often represent 13% of their income while it is often only 4-5%% for very high income earners. When all deductions and all these taxes are accounted for, the rich often end up paying very similar percentages of their income in taxes as the poor. Here is an example of the breakdown of state and local taxes in Illinois, which is quite typical in this regard:
http://www.itepnet.org/wp2000/il%20pr.pdf
Much work still needs to be done to have a truly progressive tax system in the United States.
R-Boy,
"No one helps the poor white kid from the wrong side of the tracks."
Oh please! This is the same BS that comes out of the mouth of Rush. I feel so sorry for you. Living near the "projects" and getting called a nerd are really the hallmarks of a poor upbringing. I was a poor white kid. Do you want to know who helped me? The government! And you know who paid for it? People who were better off than me! Its called being Progressive!
You stated you are from Georgia, so it would be understandable that you don't understand how a progressive government works. Those who have more provide more for the good or society. This means the "rich" pay more. Thats why the Northeast, West Coast, and Upper Midwest are the most prosperous areas of the country. Because they work together as a community. Its also why the South is basically a third-world country, with extreme poverty.
Don't try to bring your Southern fiscal libertarianism and add it to our Progressivism. The two beliefs are incompatiable. You voted for Obama, not Grover Norquist.
And the Democratic-inward-facing firing squad continues....
*sigh*
All these comments indicate that we are divisive as ever.
For those who demand facts, here are the facts as I experience them:
As a Fiscal Conservative, who was elected to public office as a Conservative Party member and was cross-endorsed by the Republicans, I can state that Republican Conservatism did not work for the following reasons:
1) It benefitted the wealthy more than the majority of the population. 2) In 24 out of the last 32 years the Republicans never balanced the budget. 3) The Republicans far outspent the Democrats. 4) Republicans were reponsible for the deregulation of the telecom, airline and banking industries that eventually led to their collapse because of over competition and other issues. I know because I worked in the telecom industry.
As to the data shown in this article, my fellow politicians (like yourselves) could easily twist the data to represent multiple viewpoints, all of which could have sound value. But how do we compromise and develop a solution that works for everyone and be fair. We can't, its impossible. However, we can propose something that represents the majority of the population.
Obama will probably need to raise taxes on everyone in order to repaid the national, improve services and balance the budget. Does he need to tackle as many projects as he is trying to do? Yes, if we don't do it now, when business has it hand out for public financing in order to stay in business, we will never achieve it once things return to normal.
And, as Bernake indicated this week, Obama needs to develop a plan before hand to absorb the major banks that will fail once they write off the unpaid balance for all the toxic loans the government buys at a discount.
K,
You're sure working hard to create a broad coalition, big tent party aren't you.
1) There are few programs that target the poor non-minorities specifically.
2) I do not listen to, like, or approve of anythign Rush says.
3) I grew up in Atlanta. That is very different than saying Georgia. Atlanta is very different than the rest of the state.
4) I'm glad the government helped you. I had no such help.
5) It is insulting of you to state that just because I grew up in GA I don't know how Progressive government works. Pardon the example, but Jimmy Carter?
6) I already stated I have no issue with a progressive income tax
7) Thanks for insulting the South with your blanket generalizations and stereotypes.
8) Fiscal conservatism and social liberalism are not incompatable. Both hold freedom of action as their central tenet.
9) But congrats K. You've cast a black mark on the Democratic Party by your remarks. I'm glad to know that you don't want to build a large coalition to do something, but would rather attack anyone who's different. I already got that when the Reps turned away from fiscal responsibility and then adopted draconian social policies. I guess the coaltion will break apart because of egos like yourself.
Mason, we seriously need a centrist 3rd party.
R-Boy, you know no-one's forcing you to get a mortgage. There's an obsession in the Anglo-Saxon world with owning property. It's historically been a decent investment but it's not a forced move: leveraging your assets massively so you can buy an apartment for about twice its retail price is one strategy among many for what to do with your income. Most people in Europe, outside Britain, don't buy: they spend some money on rent and other outgoings, and invest the rest in different assets.
K you totally missed my point. I never said having 250k was not a decent chunk of change. I agree with you that people should not be struggling at this rate.
Here was my point again. If you go to college and have a career as a white collar professional in a major metropolitan area and get married with both spouses working. By the time you are 40 you can easily expect household income over 250k. That is quite normal to expect. Thats a fact. Thats the result of people going to college and working 50-60 hours a week for 20 years in a white collar job.
I am hesitatnt to make a conclusion because I know people will misinterpert it and comment just on the one sentence. Here is what I will say.
There are plenty of people where I work making over 125k. I am in late 20s and make in the 80s for the record. I grew up middle class and went to a state school. This is a level of income that is attainable by anyone if you work hard at it. It is not rich.
I agree with Nate its the people at the 1 million plus level. That is unrealistic. 500k a year is very rare and is propably due to investments rather than income.
Now to reply to your post.
Here is the thing you have to remember. When you pull the average out of the air. Only 25% of people actually complete college. Even fewer get a masters degree. Its comparing apples to oranges.
I would strongly bet if you look at people with advanced degrees. (lawyers, MBAs, doctors, Masters or PhD in a techincal field (not liberal arts thats a whole other issue but you know the money isn't there for those degrees) You could find an average salary pretty close to 125k in major metropolitan areas.
Wealth is always relative to that of others, so deciding who is rich depends on who you count as others.
In the context of a discussion of US taxation levels, I guess it's reasonable to argue that 250K puts you a long way short of the wealthiest.
But in a globalised world where large numbers of people make under $365 a year, it sticks in the craw somewhat to hear people say $250K isn't rich. Rich or not, it's an incredibly lucky position to be in, and one that confers a moral duty to help those less lucky.
There is in fact some evidence that a tax structure that is rather flat for most incomes but then increases to very high rates at the highest incomes would be efficient from an economic perspective. It's based on a simple survey of people's incomes and their views on the size of government. Elsewhere I called it in jest the Three Bears Theory of Tax Progressivity. But it's serious stuff and supports the idea that we should create some higher income brackets with progressively higher marginal tax rates.
R-Boy
1. Almost all welffare programs are available to anyone regardless of race. Which programs are you claiming are race based? Food stamps? Section 8 housing? There is simply no truth to this statement.
2. You seem to have the same Southern White Persecution Complex.
3. I'm pretty sure when someone not from Georgia is talking about Georgia, they are usually talking about Atlanta.
4. That is because you come from a regressive state with regressive policies. Southerns decided that they were more than willing to have poor whites suffer as long as it kept poor black oppressed as well. By playing off of racial tensions, the elites were able to stop nearly all progressive politics in the South. There is a reason that the South has the most Black and White poverty.
5. As president, Carter wasn't a Progressive. He was a weak-willed moderate who did almost as much harm to America as Reagan.
6. Except if you have to pay more.
7. The South has been doing a pretty good job of making itself look foolish for the last 400 years.
8. Fiscal Libertarianism is incompatable with being a Progressive. (Just to clarify - I distiguish between Fiscal conservatives and libertarians. You can want balanced budgets (fiscal conservative) and be Progressive. However, Randian ideas of wealth distribution are not Progressive. They are Regressive.) The Democratic party is not the party of Fiscal Libertarianism.
9. I do want a big tent. There are really only two types I don't want in my party:
1. Fiscal Libertarians
2. Bigots
You seem to meet the first criteria. Some of your other comment hint to a sense of White Persecution Complex, which very well may indicate that you also may meet the second.
You are a Libertarian. Go join the Libertarian Party. They'll love you - your just like them. Libertarianism is not a politcal philosphy for the masses, which is why it will never be a viable party on its own. It is the politcal ideaology of a ruling minority that feels its power slipping. That is why it seeks to minimize or eliminate government, so they will not be "oppressed" by the masses.
There seems to be a general concept going here that "if you made it there with hard work you're not rich." That doesn't make sense. Sure, pretty much every doctor, lawyer, etc. in a major metropolitan area is going to be making $150k, $200k or more. How many people do you think are doctors and lawyers in those areas, as a percentage of the population? It strikes me as quite reasonable that, if all 50-year-old white-collar professionals are making over $250k, it's less reasonable to conclude "...and therefore $250K+ is not rich" - it's more reasonable to conclude "...and therefore all 50-year-old white-collar professionals are rich." Note that I say this as a white-collar professional. Sure, it's taken me a lot of effort to get to my position, too - but that doesn't change the fact that I now expect to make more than most people in my city, and that I am now less affected by a tax hike than I would have been when I was struggling to get by on a much lower income.
I should note, however, that I agree with the previously noted differentiation between "upper class" and "rich." There's a lot more difference between $!M/year and $500K/year than there is between $500K/year and $250K/year. There's also a big difference between $200K/year with $100K in the bank and $100K/year with $20M in the bank, and I'd call the latter rich even if the former isn't.
@Eric
If you assume for R-Boy mortgage and taxes of $4k, paying off $50,000 of college loans, making the maximum 401K payments and maybe a college fund for those future children, your $60k of discretionary income is more like $10k, maybe less. Quite comfortable, but rich? And while it would be possible to live somewhere cheaper, there aren't too many places that have jobs for economists that pay that much, and they're all expensive to live in.
K,
I'm a fiscal conservative, not a libertarian.
I'm not Protestant either.
Thank you for making an assumption though. You did a right fine job of insulting me.
If that is how you want to present the Democratic Party, you're going to destroy the Coalition that Obama's campaign created.
R-Boy,
When did I say anything about you being a Protestant? Also, if you would like to tell me which social programs aren't available to whites, I would love to know?
If the rich are so overburdened by taxes, why are they rich?
Last night on Charlie Rose Tim Geithner made the astute observation that the Obama "tax increase" is really just allowing the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy to expire, pointing out that the tax rates in effect prior to Bush's cuts went along with the greatest sustained period of growth in the nation's history.
In the face of that fact it is pretty hard to listen to the howls of the rich who say that rolling things back to the way they were when things were good is going to be the death of us all.
In the face of that fact it is pretty hard to listen to the howls of the rich who say that rolling things back to the way they were when things were good is going to be the death of us all.
Yes, but this works off of the assumption that those higher tax rates on the rich were one of the causes of the roaring good times of the 1990's. It totally ignores the fact that there may have been plenty of other fuel (burgeoning technology sector) running the economic engine in spite of those higher tax rates.
You have correlation and causation completely cross-wired my friend. There's not a burgeoning technology sector at the present time. Real estate has collapsed and is bringing down most every other sector (primarily service, construction, and manufacturing) with it. The only potential for real economic growth lies in the development of alternative and sustainable energy here in the US. I have my doubts as to how much that can help in the short and intermediate term as there also be sacrifices and economic hardships in transitioning from traditional energy sources.
But the point is that those higher rates in the 1990's ignore other factors that may have been fueling economic activity. It comes down to the fundamentals of the economy, not petty differences in marginal tax rates (especially at the top).
Adding higher thresholds is a good idea in principle, but I doubt it would work. The reason for this is that the extremely wealthy don't earn income in the conventional sense. Now if something like capital gains was taxed as ordinary income, that would be something -- although it might have a major effect on the markets.
I used to be a fiscal conservative. Now I'm a realist. I got what I wanted in the 1992, 1994, 1996 and 1998 elections and then watched as the politicans of both parties turned a 5-trillion-plus-surplus-over-ten-years-if-nothing-changes projection into an excuse to go on a credit card binge. And so, still less than ten years in, we're in a situation where a surplus would have been of use and, no surprise, we're more in debt than ever.
A plague on both your houses.
Smoking Gun...
Where did I say anything about causation? Linking tax rates and prosperity directly is your theme apparently, which you are so quick to ascribe to others I sense it to be, for you, more of an ax to grind that a meaningful topic of discussion.
Smoking Aces,
What you have wrong is the argument the administration is making. It isn't that the higher tax rates promoted growth, it is that ythe higher rates did not inhibit growth. And the conservative argument against higher tax rates is that the inhibit growth. Well obviously they don't.
Yes other factors helped the economic growth in the 90s, but the hgher tax rates did not inhibit the economy being in surplus, and then when Bush got rid of the highest rates of tax, then the budget went into deficit. There may have been other factors at work as well, but one of the reasons (note one) that we are in such an economic mess right now is the Bush tax cuts.
Gun, Aces, my apologyies.
Now if something like capital gains was taxed as ordinary income
I would go for that. And for interest too. Basically any type of "income."
In this era of widespread computers and the Internet, why can't we have a bracketless, linear sliding-scale progressive tax rate starting at, say, the poverty line? Seems like that would make the process a lot more fair and, oddly enough, simpler to explain--if you make more money, you pay a higher rate, period. None of this "threshold" stuff, with people arguing about how rich is rich in DC versus Podunk.
Speaking of which, I'd like to remind people that stocks cost the same regardless of where you live. So unless the Manhattan/DC people are going to subsidize capital purchases of the people from Podunk, then I think the Manhattan/DC people are gonna have to suck it up and take their problems up with their employer.
markymark said it better than I did.
wv gangst: Life of a thug cut short
That's okay, Pragmatus.
At least you didn't call me a "troll."
I can see yours and markymark's point, and I'm in favor of higher marginal tax rates on higher level of incomes, but I'm just saying that to insinuate that because the tax rates were higher under Clinton and we enjoyed thriving prosperity, the two are intrinsically linked is a bit disingenuous. Differences in marginal tax rates - especially minor ones at the top levels - are only tangentially related to economic prosperity.
The top rate could have been 75% in the 1990's and it wouldn't have hurt us economically. The question always posed to fiscal conservatives in a sarcastic way is, "If lowering taxes is always good, why don't we drop the rate to 0% across the board?"
My sarcastic reply would be that if higher taxes (especially marginal rates in the top brackets)have always been linked to greater economic prosperity, why don't we raise it to 100% above a certain level?
I've seen a few references here to the "flat tax." To my knowledge every single one of those so-called "flat taxes" (including the so-called "fair tax" proposal) has a major flaw.
They all focus on taxing "earned income" or "income from wages" -- but either totally exclude or give special preference to income from investments, property, and capital gains.
So even if they contain a couple of elements that make for a reduced rate on those in the lower income range, they give enormous advantage -- a much lower effective personal income tax rate -- to those whose income comes substantially from property, investments, and capital gains.
For this reason the argument for the simplicity of flat/fair tax proposals is a bit of sleight of hand. So can you file your tax using a postcard, as they like to claim? No way.
Guess what, there would still have to be withholding and other estimated taxes -- and substantial documentation including reporting by employers and recipients of services provided by free-lancers (artists, plumbers, lawyers, etc.), so that all of an individual's income is accurately accounted for and there is enough money withheld so that people can actually comply with the law and pay the taxes due at the end of the year. (We don't all draw our income from a single payer; so this is not a solution for people like, say, Nate, who probably draws income from a dozen or more payers.)
I favor simplifying the forms. But not in a name of getting higher tax compliance; that's a chimera. Instead in the name of reducing the cost of preparing taxes filings.
I would also favor a flatter tax rate as long as ALL sources of personal income were counted the same -- income from wages, consulting fees, services provided, and investments (in property, stocks, etc.). Without that, the tax rates would hardly be flat or fair.
But nobody is proposing such a fair or flat system now, least of all the wealthy.
Usually a "flat tax" proposal is merely a scheme to leave the wallet of the average American flatter.
This tax thing could be made very simple - a quasi-flat tax without all of the bureaucracy. First of all, as we've already mentioned, tax everything the same: earned income, dividends, interest, capital gains, etc.
Second, give everyone a standard deduction that's above the poverty line but a little below the median personal income level. Or maybe make it at the median personal income level. For full-time workers, I think it's around $40,000, so let's use that as a starting point for convenience and expediency's sake and move forward from there, indexing it with inflation. Give people deductions for spouses, children, and other dependents of $3,000 or so.
Make the marginal tax rate on the first $100,000/year about 15%, keeping in mind that people won't be paying anything on the first $40,000 or so. Tax income from $100,000 to say $1,000,000 at around 40%. Then tax income above $1,000,000 at 65%.
How's that?! Simple, effective, and fair. And this comes from a fiscal conservative.
How many people who complain about returning the Clinton tax rate on 250 grand a year
1) Actually have a realistic chance of earning that much?
2) Actually earning said amount, realyl have the time to blog/whine about it?
3) And, finally, also realize that the tax increase only applies to money earned over and above the 250 grand?
Add up all three, and use them to filter posts, and I think you can elimate most of the freeper posts from your 'to read' list...
Smoking Aces,
The only way I would reply to your last question is simple. I would view taxation as a moral question. We pay taxes because we are morally tied to each other. (We all benefit from a better education system or from having good roads or from having a military that protects us all). Those who earn the most pay tax more tax because they have the most dispossable income, but they do deserve to gain from there labour, so a 100% rate would be as immoral as a flat tax.
I think the moral aspect of taxation often is passed by. But its a balance, and at the moment for a lot of people the balance is out of kilter between the money the state gets and the money it needs to spend. But also its out of kilter between the burden the less well off are being asked to pay and the burden that the richest [who can afford to pay the most] are being asked to bear.
Smoking Aces said...
"At least you didn't call me a "troll."
Your complaints about how others treat you rings a bit hollow.... do you at least agree with that?
We need to distinguish between WEALTH and INCOME, and between INVESTMENT and CONSUMPTION. The investing class in this country has most of the wealth. Most of it they invest, some they consume.
Where we drop the ball is only discussing taxing INCOME, not WEALTH. Most investors avoid getting their wealth taxed by avoiding the recognition of income. Our only current wealth taxes are property taxes and the inheritance/gift tax.
We should tax wealth. Say, 1 to 1.25 percent annually, with an enormous personal and dependent exemption, (say 250,000 per person.) Most households would pay no wealth tax. Investors would pay this tax every year. In exchange for instituting the wealth tax, we eliminate the inheritance/gift tax and tax on investment income.
Take Warren Buffet. His wealth is immense, as much as many thousands of typical Americans. His consumption is much less, probably no more than 20 or 50 times the average. I suggest that his CONSUMPTION is a better measure of the burden he represents to society than his WEALTH. However, as Warren would be the first to notice, the very existence of wealth of this magnitude is only possible in a modern society. So, to charge an appropriate fee for the privilege of participating is only fair.
Taxing wealth would encourage better investing.
We can think of big-wealth, capital-I “Investors” like Warren Buffett as having two types of wealth; the wealth expected to support themselves and their families, and the rest of their wealth which they never reasonably expect to consume. This second part, they only “own” in the sense that they direct its use. They are really stewards for the correct investment of that wealth on behalf of society. (Let’s see Warren just try to sink 15 billion dollars into a personal swimming pool.)
Taxing wealth annually rather than the investment income as it is realized and recognized removes distortions in investment caused by different tax treatment based on arbitrary timelines and distinctions between types of investment.
Lose taxes on investment income. Tax wealth annually.
markymark,
I agree, in principle, about the "morality" of the tax burden. My question about a 100% rate was a bit rhetorical and meant to counteract those who think conservatives want a 0% rate. What do you think about my plan above? Lumping all sources of income together, giving a huge standard deduction, and having only three broad tax brackets of 15%, 40%, and 65%. I think that would be splendid.
@Candle in the Dark,
First, I:
1)have a realistic chance to earn 250k/year,
2)have a little extra time on my hands, as almost anyone does, to "whine" about whatever I choose (nobody spends their entire 16+ waking hours at work or doing something)
3)understand very clearly the concept of a marginal tax rate and how that applies only to money made over 250k.
Lastly, I wasn't complaining when I said, "At least you didn't call me a 'troll'." I was merely alluding to the fact that earlier in the thread I made some points - referenced by facts - that people didn't like so they resorted to that particular ad hominem attack without addressing the concerns I'd presented.
Hey, I've seen a hundred times in here where a conservative comes in here, unarmed with facts, and makes an informed opinion only to be shouted down because they weren't backed with any evidence to support their position. I was shocked - and became a little irate - that when I presented evidence to support my cause, I was called a troll and nobody would engage in a debate of any substance.
@markmark
This is a slippery slope
"But also its out of kilter between the burden the less well off are being asked to pay and the burden that the richest [who can afford to pay the most] are being asked to bear."
Right now we are at less than 50% of Americans paying taxes.
There is also the argument that the richest have worked the hardest to get where they are and maybe some of the other people should be working harder instead of relying on the top to support them.
There is a similar theme with the mortgage mess. Why sould the 90% that followed the rules have to bail out the 10% that over indulged or were too dumb to know what they were doing.
My rhetroical question to you is when is enough enough.
We are getting dangerously close to class warfare.
If you assume for R-Boy mortgage and taxes of $4k, paying off $50,000 of college loans, making the maximum 401K payments and maybe a college fund for those future children, your $60k of discretionary income is more like $10k, maybe less.
No, he still has $60K discresionary income. Except for the college loans, those are all choices of what to do with his money, and therefore are discretionary. Lots of people don't have the opportunity to save ~$30,000/annum for future offspring's educational expenses while max-funding 401(k), 403(b), TSP, etc...
Furthermore, don't forget that Eric spotted a 2x COLA between himself and R-Boy. That's a bit generous, to say the least.
Quite comfortable, but rich?
Yes. Still rich. And responsible.
And while it would be possible to live somewhere cheaper, there aren't too many places that have jobs for economists that pay that much, and they're all expensive to live in.
He could have bought a smaller house or further out. I don't know when or where exactly he purchased, but I'm going into the third year living in a house I paid $210K less than he did for his and it's twice the size and it has a third of an acre of land. It's not like I live in the sticks, either. With no traffic (HA!), it takes me five minutes to reach the WW bridge.
Something about $650k for a three-bedroom apartment in a NoVA gentrifying neighborhood doesn't add up, but I don't know what it is. Oh, well...
Nova,
My problem with involing class warfare is its alwayas the rich that do so. Noone ever invokes class warfare about the ridiculous state of healthcare in America or when high rates of tax are gotten rid of. Why is it 'warfare' to ask the most wealthy and most able to shoulder burdens to do so, but somehow the market as common sense when the rich fail to meet those burdens? When is enough enough? When do the rich bother to find out what is happening in the shadows of the shining city (if I may be allowed to invoke Mario Cuomo for a moment!) and do something about it.
(also provide me with some evidence that only 50% of Americans pay tax. That seems a ridiculous figure to me that suggests you are listening too much to dttoheads on the tax issue. (Given things like sales tax and other such non point of earnings taxes)
Well... if smokingaces hasn't moved on to troll somewhere else........ I'll answer your question (how you are a troll for wanting a response to "facts").
First post by you: March 10, 2009 8:19 PM
First response "calling author out": March 10, 2009 8:29 PM
That means you waited LESS than 10 minutes between posting your article and demanding a response. If you're serious, next time wait at LEAST long enough for the author to read the article before you start flipping out.
markymark,
Nova misspoke. First, he should clarify that it's people who don't pay federal income taxes. They still pay state, local, property, sales, etc. taxes. Secondly, I think he's overestimating the figure. I think it's closer to 35% and not 50%.
Number of Americans Paying Zero Federal Income Tax Grows to 43.4 Million
Here's a link to an article that covers the topic on "non-payers."
A nice supplement would be a graph showing what $357,700-earners (in today's $) have been taxed over the history of the income tax.
Until and unless we bring back $1M and $10M brackets, that's the trend that we should really be talking about when we compare ourselves now to how we used to tax the "rich"...
SA,
I guessed he was. And as such the point is somewhat bogus. For a start who does it include? Tax exiles, the unemployed, women who choose not to work, whilst raising a family? I don't get exactly what he is getting at, but the point is most often made by those who want to suggest a lot of poor people don't pay tax for whatever reason.
I'd like to see any evidence of exactly who he is referring to.
That article leaves out a critical number to give some context. They give the number of people represented by the 43,400,000 tax returns with (0) or (-) liability, but leave out the number of people represented by the 136,000,000 total returns.
I wonder why?
markymark,
The link I posted clarifies some of what you ask. It's a percentage of returns that have a zero or negative tax liability out of all returns that were filed. As of 2006, it was 32% of the total.
During 2006, Tax Foundation economists estimate that roughly 43.4 million tax returns, representing 91 million individuals, will face a zero or negative tax liability. That's out of a total of 136 million federal tax returns that will be filed. Adding to this figure the 15 million households and individuals who file no tax return at all, roughly 121 million Americans—or 41 percent of the U.S. population—will be completely outside the federal income tax system in 2006.1 This total includes those who pay no tax, and those who pay some tax upfront and are later refunded the full amount of the tax paid or more.
I don't see your gripe, Mason, or the relevance of your question. Please enlighten me.
Here is my main problem with Nova's argument. He says
'There is also the argument that the richest have worked the hardest to get where they are and maybe some of the other people should be working harder instead of relying on the top to support them'
Now I don't wish to over play this, but is anyone seriously suggesting that a CEO works as physically hard as a (for instance) car plant worker? Why do we put a bigger premium on mental work than on physical work?
Also conservatice economists will tell you that differentials in earnings is important (society needs rich people to inspire poor people to do better is basically the argument.) Buit that argument basically says that there will always be a differential, and so why should a poor person really work any harder? Its a self defeating argument in a lot of ways.
@Smoking Aces,
Your tax rates aren't too bad, a little on the high side for $100k, which doesn't go as far as it used to. Before you take off on Nate, you might look at what he says about bracket creep. That's where politicians get the money for their pet projects. I'd go for 4 brackets instead of three with lower rates and fewer deductions and with the rates INDEXED.
43.4 million tax returns of nonpayers gives 91 million individuals.
136 million total tax returns gives X individuals.
The gripe is that the information is incomplete, that's all. Is X 305,000,000 or 205,000,000. It makes a big difference.
Besides, if we know what the population of the US was in 2006, it shouldn't be too hard to infer how many are represented by the 136M based on the other data they provided. It seems like you're looking for something sinister when it doesn't exist.
It's strictly numbers. I don't see why it's so hard to take them at face value without nitpicking a detail as a possible motive. If it was something more important than that, I'd agree with you, but it seems like you're just nitpicking details.
(Smoking Aces)> (nobody spends their entire 16+ waking hours at work or doing something)
I think you small slice of the world view is showing. :(
If you assume for R-Boy mortgage and taxes of $4k, paying off $50,000 of college loans, making the maximum 401K payments and maybe a college fund for those future children, your $60k of discretionary income is more like $10k, maybe less. Quite comfortable, but rich? And while it would be possible to live somewhere cheaper, there aren't too many places that have jobs for economists that pay that much, and they're all expensive to live in.
This is a microcosm of the craziness of the semantics around "rich", how meaningless the word is. Tucking away full 401K plus college funds, 50K/year in investments? I mean, holy crap.
Plus you have to be grossing OVER 250K/year to hit that 250K bracket. Because that is only 250K taxable income. That puts you in the top couple percent in this country, on a world scale that puts inside the tiny fractions of 1% of the top earners. Once upon a time you'd have to be figgin' honest to goodness royalty to do that!
It is why I think adding more stratification would help, or even smooth curve from an exponential equation (not sure of the logistics problems that would cause the IRS because they are used to putting things out in table form). So we don't have people thinking that being at the top bracket is the government claiming that they belong in the set of the "richest of the rich". Because, outside of one person out of 300 million, there is always going to be someone with greater personal monetary wealth, thus. If you are fixated on you wealth that much it's pretty easy to fall into "I'm well off but I could have more". *sigh*
> I'd go for 4 brackets instead of three with lower rates and fewer deductions and with the rates INDEXED.
Indexing, while games can and have been played with that, is helpful. It protects against inflation. Look at that top bracket curve during the 70's. Carter got lambasted for the 70% tax rate (I've heard this) but he didn't even bring it in! It'd had been in place a while. But look at the curve, inflation dragged a lot of people up into that top bracket without them increasing real purchasing power.
Besides, if we know what the population of the US was in 2006, it shouldn't be too hard to infer how many are represented by the 136M based on the other data they provided. It seems like you're looking for something sinister when it doesn't exist.
Not everyone files a return. I don't think you're looking at this critically enough.
It's strictly numbers. I don't see why it's so hard to take them at face value without nitpicking a detail as a possible motive. If it was something more important than that, I'd agree with you, but it seems like you're just nitpicking details.
You're new around here, aren't you? Nitpicking numbers is what this site does best.
To the folks who just want people in citydwellers to move, remember that the social costs of living in rural and suburban areas is MUCH higher than for cities which is why places like China are so actively cultivating city living. The carbon footprint of people in cities is much lower, yet every time cap and trade is raised rural folks have a fit. The cost of maintaining highway and energy, and telecom networks is also much higher per capita for rural inhabitants yet fully subsidized by citydwellers. To not take those subsidies into account by partially offsetting cost of living only serves to do exactly what you've proposed: encourage people to move out of cities which would be very bad for the country. After all, just look at which states are net providers to the federal government and which are net leeches.
Mason,
I see your point now. The 136 million returns is inclusive of the 43 million with a 0 or - liability. So my interpretation is that it's a number closer to 300 million people than 200 million. Although it says that 15 million households don't file a return, so you'd have to subtract them from the total to see how many people are represented by the 136 million filed returns - it's probably closer to 260-270 million, give or take a million.
Funny thing is: it's really easy data to find. It's somewhere buried in here. I don't know why they wouldn't have published it.
I guess I'm just annoyed that they're making me go find it to put their report in context! :-P
I don't want the upper class to move out of the big cities--I just want them to recognize that, even in the big cities, they are a lot rarer than they think they are. I posted above that the median household income in 2007 in San Francisco was about 62,500. Most people in the big cities are making it on far less than $250,000.
I just looked it up--in Manhattan, the average income is $73,000. In DC it is closer to $55,000. (DC is only slightly above average in the cost-of-living index, by the way.)
Not everyone files a return. I don't think you're looking at this critically enough.
Okay, let's walk through this more slowly. They say there are 43 million return with 0 or - liability and that represents 91 million. They later add to that 15 million non-filing households and say that that brings the total to 121 million people are "completely outside the federal income tax system in 2006." That's the 91 million filers with 0/- liability and, using basic deductive math, another 30 million people from the households that don't file.
Okay, so now that we know that, we also know that the 136 million filed returns includes the 43 million filers (and 91 million people) with 0/- liability but does not include the 15 million households (and 30 million people) that do not file.
So to find out how many people the 136 million filed returns represents, it seems like you'd take the population (average or whatever) in 2006 minus 30 million, which should be around 260-270 million as I suggested. Make sense? Guess I just didn't have any trouble picking up on that, so I hope that clears it up for you.
You're new around here, aren't you? Nitpicking numbers is what this site does best.
That's fine with me. I'll nitpick to death when I feel it's called for...
Taxation is theft. The rest is just details.
Here is the overall point
You are increasing the number of people paying little to no federal income tax and also getting refunds back.
At the same time you are increasing the amount of tax at the top.
This is basically a populist message which I strongly disagree with and is also class warfare. The lower class is demanding increasingly greater government services while their share of the burden is decreasing. This is not sustainable across the long term.
Nova,
I think that you are wrong to say that people are demanding greater government service, and I would say that the higher rate payers have not been paying there burden for sometime. Those that can pay should pay, and those who are in the 40% (at least according to Smoking Ace's article) that don't pay federal income tax don't pay for many good reasons.
And as I say, why do the rich complain so much about 'class warfare'? You never hear of poor people complaining about class warfare when they can't get affordable healthcare or are forced to send there children to worse schools. To my mind that is just as much class warfare as asking rich to pay more tax.
"Taxation is theft. The rest is just details." - elliot
Catchy phrase that sadly is flawed because it is based on a very uninformed and/or extreme understanding of ownership. Do you have a house? Is the mortgage paid for?
If so do you believe you own the house and property outright and absolutely without encumbrances? Because if you do then you don't actually understand how things are. There are certain inalienable claims that the state has on that property.
Likewise money. What you don't understand is that you are in effect in a franchise, a collective agreement with everyone else in the country, state, county, incorporated city/town, etc. via the bodies of government. As such it is extreme to the point of lunacy to claim actual "theft" in any meaningful sense of the word.
You have earned that money, and lived your life, by leveraging the assets of that collective (assets of varying levels of tangibility, but all very real). If you were to opt yourself out unilaterally after/while gaining that benefit it would be you that is acting closest to "theft".
Markymark,
I think we are at why there are two parties time. Thanks for keeping it civil.
I guess my closing argument again is how much is too much.
Longterm for me its all about education. I really liked what Obama said yesterday. The fact is with a high school diploma your salary and life outlook is pretty grim.
Do you agree with Nates original thought that there should be another level at say 1,000,000.
I think the payroll taxes should keep going as well. It doesn't make sense that once you cross 104,000 or so your rates decrease.
To my mind that is just as much class warfare as asking rich to pay more tax.
I agree and respect your argument about the "class warfare" against the poor to a degree, but in Nova's defense, I think he's referring more to the angry, belligerent, and on occasion, revolutionary rhetoric being directed towards the upper class and rich. It creates an image almost of the angry villagers taking up their torches and pitchforks and physically assailing the upper class and opulent in this country.
While a few have been very dismissive of the concerns of the poor and lower class, and a very few have gone so far as to actually belittle them verbally(which is sad and pathetic), nobody has used quite the belligerent tone towards them that is being used towards the rich that would insinuate physical action may be taken.
I know what you'll say, though, that no one has technically suggested physical action against the rich, but it has at least been insinuated, and it doesn't take long for an insinuation to turn to action if there are a couple of crazies in the mob willing to act on extremist beliefs.
I think the payroll taxes should keep going as well. It doesn't make sense that once you cross 104,000 or so your rates decrease.
I'm not necessarily going to argue that it should or shouldn't be higher to $104,000 (indexed, of course), but I've seen this argument pointed out and I think people quickly forget that there is a cap on your payroll taxes because there is a cap on what you can take out. Social security being the prime example. Someone making $110,000 a year will pay the same (6.2% of $104,000) as someone making $1.1 million per year. But it makes no different to what they can receive down the line when they retire.
If you demand a higher "pay-in" for higher income earners, shouldn't they get a commensurate increase in what they can get out later. In other words, in the above example, if the limit is raised to $250,000 for payroll taxes, shouldn't the guy making $1.1 million get more out of SSI later on than the guy making $110,000 because he/she paid more in? If the cap is removed entirely, shouldn't your SSI checks in retirement be a direct function of what you paid in, even if you paid in 6.2% of billions of dollars.
My point is that it is getting dangerously socialistic - lest I invoke that word - to raise or remove the cap on what people pay in terms of payroll taxes and not give them a commensurate increase in the benefits later on....think about it.
As an addendum to my previous comment with a little bit of snark, it's a little bit disingenuous and dishonest for the Left to argue payroll taxes are a regressive tax when there is a cap against what people must pay in but fail to mention that also means a commensurate cap is placed on what you can get out of the system.
Those are direct benefit taxes (SSI at least). It's not the same as paying for roads, schools, etc.
You're paying in directly for the government to be your safetey net for retirement income. It shouldn't be a program that milks dollars from one group of people only to limit their share of the kitty later only to give money directly to another group of people. That has the stench of socialism all over it.
Loner,
I know how you feel. As a fiscal conservative for 25 years, I finally gave up fighting with my fellow conservatives over their poor fiscal and social performance that I converted my Republican affiliation to unaffiliated. Political party one-upmanship over the years has killed any possibility of achieving anything.
Effing blogger ate my post... Whatever...
Okay, let's walk through this more slowly. They say there are 43 million return with 0 or - liability and that represents 91 million. They later add to that 15 million non-filing households and say that that brings the total to 121 million people are "completely outside the federal income tax system in 2006." That's the 91 million filers with 0/- liability and, using basic deductive math, another 30 million people from the households that don't file.
Okay, so now that we know that, we also know that the 136 million filed returns includes the 43 million filers (and 91 million people) with 0/- liability but does not include the 15 million households (and 30 million people) that do not file.
So to find out how many people the 136 million filed returns represents, it seems like you'd take the population (average or whatever) in 2006 minus 30 million, which should be around 260-270 million as I suggested. Make sense? Guess I just didn't have any trouble picking up on that, so I hope that clears it up for you.
What I have bolded is the flaw in your reasoning. You don't know if the group of non-filers looks the same as the group of people with (0 or (-) liability, and neither do I. We do know that without that assumption the arugment fall apart.
Nonetheless, you're probably close. Maybe a bit low, but close. I'd set the floor a bit higher because the number of married returns increases with income level as does the number of dependents. I'd also raise the ceiling as the number of single filers increases as you go down the scale (and off it).
Post a Comment