3.22.2009

Is the AIG Bonus Blowout Hurting Obama?

I don't think you'll find anyone claiming that the White House has had a good week. And certainly, some of the controversy surrounding the bonuses paid to employees at AIG and other bailed-out companies may have longer-term, as well as near-term, consequences for the Administration.

But so far, and in spite of numerous assertions to the contrary inside both the blogosphere and the mainstream media, there's little evidence that the bonus controversy is hurting Barack Obama.

Compare Barack Obama's approval ratings today to those eight days earlier, before the AIG controversy blew up a week ago Saturday. Among the two organizations that track approval on a daily basis, Rasmussen has Obama's approval rating down by just one point, while Gallup actually has it moving up by four points:



In addition, Research 2000, which does not track presidential approval but does track the related concept of presidential favorability, sees little change in Barack Obama's standing with the public. This week, 67 percent of the public has a favorable impression of Obama and 28 an unfavorable one, not materially changed from last week, when those numbers were 68 percent and 27 percent, respectively.

This apparent steadiness in Obama's numbers comes in spite of the fact that the public has been following the AIG story very, very closely. The Occam's Razor answer to this dilemma may simply be that, in spite of the outrage the public feels about the bonuses, they do not particularly blame Obama for them. Instead, they blame AIG itself, and may see Obama as being as much of a victim as a co-conspirator. We should keep in mind that, among the 95 percent of the population that does not follow politics especially closely, what they've seen is Obama expressing some (tempered) outrage about the bonuses and saying he'll do whatever he can to recoup them, in between stints on Leno and filling out his March Madness bracket. The notion that the Administration should be blamed for failing to build in better checks on executive compensation in its bailout and/or stimulus legislation, while persuasive to policy wonks, is perhaps a bit esoteric for the average American. The perception is that AIG broke the rules, not (as is actually closer to the mark) that the rules were inadequately written.

Several other factors may also be helping Obama. Firstly, the Republicans, who have historically been laxer on executive compensation, are in no position to claim the moral highground. Secondly, the rally in the stock market, which seems to be boosting consumer sentiments, may be providing something of a wind behind Obama's back. And thirdly, the Administration has a keen survival instinct, and hasn't hesitated to throw its allies, particularly Chris Dodd, under the proverbial bus.

This is not to suggest that there aren't longer-term risks for the White House. Any further actions that are perceived as a "bailout" will now require more political capital, and may in fact be entirely impossible. This may come to a head this week, as further details emerge about Treasury's bank rescue plan, which is so far receiving almost uniformly terrible reviews.

If you believe as I do, moreover, that some of the actions taken by the Congress are actively counterproductive to the recovery of the economy, that could obviously come back to harm Obama.

As Ron Brownstein points out, however, the unexpected ferocity of the AIG backlash could also prove to be helpful to other aspects of the Democratic agenda. Consider that about half of the Republican conference in the House just voted for a 90 percent tax rate on certain individuals; is it now going to be easier or harder for the Administration to roll back the Bush tax cuts? Other major aspects of the Obama agenda, moreover, such as health care and EFCA, can credibly be framed as common interests against corporate ones; such frames may now have greater resonance.

Then again, it may be that outrage over AIG, while intense, may be rather narrowly directed at AIG itself, and may not translate to outrage at the wealthy or at corporate America in general. My sense is that the anger at the banks does in fact reflect at least a mild paradigmatic shift in the American consciousness on these issues, but I can offer no proof of it.

Populist sentiment, ultimately, may prove to be both the greatest asset and the greatest risk to the Administration as it tries to enact its agenda. Can the Administration rely on the populist vanguard to shift the Overton Window on matters of class? Or will the broad-based left-of-center coalition that elected Obama cleave itself into halves, making it harder for the Administration to achieve political consensus?

One thing's for certain: populist sentiment, whatever the Administration chooses to make of it, is no longer something it can afford to ignore.

114 comments

Darío said...

First!.
No, no hurting.

mcc said...

It seems to me the thing that's going to make it difficult for all this to actually hurt the Democrats is, what the Democrats really did here was fail to pass executive pay limits early. But the Republicans, by and large, have always opposed executive pay limits. So in order to make hay out of this, Republicans have to basically attack the Democrats for not overriding the Republicans; and most specifically they have to attack the Democrats for allowing themselves to be overridden by a Republican-controlled White House. Huh? If people are actually paying attention, then this can never hurt the Democrats without simultaneously hurting the Republicans more.

Question: has an approval rating ever been polled for Tim Geithner, specifically?

Aaron Barnhart said...

And Obama will be further aided in his message-shaping by 60 MINUTES tonight.

Thought Frank Rich was grasping at straws calling this Obama's "Katrina moment." And you thought Republicans were hasty in shifting years of neglect over to Obama's side of the ledger ...

jroc133 said...

Nate - this was a great post w/ great insight. I keep hearing from the mainstream press (other than Fixed Noise), that this has now attached the economy specifically to Obama and it has also hurt his political capitol. From what I'm seeing from Gallup poll numbers and from general sentiment among supporters - this isn't hurting him at all...

With the Gallup numbers, it seems as though Obama's numbers are increasing instead of declining. It also seems that this will hurt Republicans more so than Dems (except for Chris Dodd).

To sum this up: whenever there seems to be a hint of controversy for the president - his supporters become more vehement and more in his corner. The bottomline to me is that the country is solidly behind this guy and for Bush supporters or conservatives in general, this is very difficult for them b/c they just don't see why. Still, this will be a very interesting week - but the real fight will come down to the budget. THAT's the issue that we need to be talking about and I'm wondering if Nate is willing to break down or post any numbers on the odds of the budget passing (remember), there's no 60 votes needed for the budget - only majority (and I am talking about the Senate).

Tony C. said...

I think the current populist anger is a reflection of a newfound populist awareness:

The average person now believes that the Wall Street thinking is essentially:

"If its legal, we will do it. We don't care if it puts people out of work, we don't care if it destroys your 401K, we don't care if it bankrupts the world, we don't care if you don't like it, if it makes us money we will do it anyway, even if we are fully aware of all these consequences."

The amount is trivial and people know it, the problem is the symbolic "fuck you" the amount represents. Wall Street and the corporate suites have no conscience and no morals.

Well, the populace is saying "fuck you back," if it takes laws and regulations to stop your greed, then laws and regulations are what you will get, assholes.

That is the emotion and the intent. We don't give a shit what your free market philosophy says if it produces this kind of destructive behavior.

We don't care how good and rational it may sound, if it means our bankrupted mothers must go work as greeters in Walmart.

The current populist rage is one big STFU to anybody making $1M or more a year, period. People want Congress to set this shit straight. All of it, not just the bonuses. All of it.

And if they don't get off their ass and on the side of the people they will be losing elections.

As for Nate's post, I don't think people blame Obama because it is a crapload of stuff to look at. We understand this was less than 1% of the bailout and we can understand how it slipped his attention. Fine. Just fix it like you say you will, and that will be enough.

Saint Dude said...

There has been a rush to place the blame for the struggling economy on Obama since really his first week in office. It was absurd then, and remains absurd now.

That said, if the Obama administration does not ultimately produce results, accomplishing the dual and somewhat contradictory objectives of stabilizing the financial industry while simultaneously protecting tax payers, the president will be in hot water.

If all these efforts continue the impression of simply shoveling money down the rabbit hole, there is going to be little public appetite for any of Obama's progressive agenda. This would be a shame. Obama is correct, we need to make investments in education, energy, and healthcare if we are going to lay the foundation for future economic growth. But one can only invest if one has a current surplus (figuratively speaking of course).

slasher14 said...

The current wave of outrage CAN help Obama because such things as the silly 90% tax proposal (which he MUST veto if it gets to his desk) are putting the fear of God into those Masters Of The Universe who, up to now, have tried to act as if business as usual were still the order of the day. Like him or not, Obama is going to be President for the next four years and if those four years are spent with the public as infuriated as it is now, a lot of seriously bad things could happen to them. It is in their interest to start giving in to Obama, who has shown a clear willingness to be reasonable, before public outrage causes him to abandon that temperament.

Right now, for example, Obama is relying on Summers and Geithner -- both totally comfortable with the institutions under fire -- in charge of the economy. There is no lack of businessmen who understand that more radical steps are going to be needed to solve the banking crisis and that nationalization, or some other form of radical intervention, should be attempted. Such as Geithner don't seem to want to do that. Obama needs to show, clearly, that his patience with the people he has put in charge is not limitless, and the message will be sent that it's time for business to deal with the fact that the public will not stand still for making them whole out of its pockets -- they, too, will have to make sacrifices. The outrage will make this easier for Obama to do, and he needs to use it soon, before it turns on him, as it will if the year ends without some kind of resolution of the bank situation.

Brad said...

Nice post.

No comment on the fact that Rasmussen has by far the worst numbers for Obama when they had the best numbers for Bush?

Tim Gunter said...

Not a good week for Obama because he pissed off Coach K and Duke fans when he picked the Tarheels to win the NCAA Basketball Championship. Coach K said that Obama should best better focus on the economy. Also, appearing on the Tonight Show didn't help either. And, I am not that crazy about seeing taxpayers' money going to these financial institutions like AIG. The execs would just grab it themselves and what did Geithner and Obama expect?

PeteKent said...

One might better ask is Obama's reaction to the bonus blow up hurting the economy and the delaying it from taking flight?

I think it is too early to tell whether this has hurt the President's popularity -- and in any event I think he will be fairly bullet proof until the impact of the recession becomes more protracted among the wealthy (who were the early losers) and more impactful on the working and office class (who are losing jobs).

He has until Christmas.

Whatever can be said about the political impact of this week, the historical and governmental implications were intense.

The President took a minor story about some $162 million of bonuses and blew it up into a still breathing cause célèbre, all over his own Administration’s failure to deal with the very issue on multiple occasions.

Rather than apologize for his prior actions or, heaven forbid, defend them, the President is the first to get up on his high horse, pronouncing the bonus payments to derivative traders to have been “obscene” setting off a species of mob rule such as we have not seen in the US House of Representatives since the great slave debates of the Civil War Period.

Then, at least, we were arguing over human freedom, now we found ourselves thrust into a sideshow meant to distract us from the important issues of the day, the number and seriousness of which have been made manifest to us all by Obama's own announcement of an ambitious agenda that needs to be passed quickly.

As the President told us in his State of the Union Speech we do not have the luxury of anger, nor do we have the luxury of time. Yet every actor on the Democratic side seemed willing to leap up into this breech and make hay where the sun don't shine! And in true hypocritical fashion, breathing-takingly audacious hypocrisy that only members of government can seem to muster, especially when aided by a still compliant, if increasingly confused media (“is that a tilt in the halo?”)

We all know now that this was Obama’s and Geithner's fault with Dodd having his fingerprints all over this, while Barney Frank is seen salivating and knitting in a corner.

The week ended with the United States House of Representatives -- the People's House -- passing a Bill of Attainder in Ex Post Facto fashion against a broad class of suddenly unpopular citizens, a bill of dubious constitutionality but of such apparent repute that it was passed with under an hour's debate!

Thank you, Mr. President.

Well done!

Too bad you did not have a plan for the banks and their toxic assets to present to the country last week; we might have avoided all of this madness.

(You can now follow me on Twitter: PeteKent01)

mcc said...

Saint Dude: Along these lines, I wonder how things change once the Obama administration finally announces its bank stabilization plan-- which is just about certain just by its nature to be something that emphasizes "stabilize the financial industry" over "protect tax payers"...

(I'm actually kind of wondering whether this is what Obama's press conference tuesday is going to be about.)

Statler N Waldorf said...

The Credit Must Flow

bostonmediawatch said...

The screwup by Congress this week will end up hurting Obama if nobody shows up at Geithner's auctions for the toxic assets.

Sacto Joe said...

Obama appears to agree with Nate and myself that this punitive bill is "a dangerous way to go". Time to put down your pitchforks, people, and put the mob mentality on hold.

This is a tiny amount of money in the larger scheme of things. Chalk it up to part of the cost of getting us out of the unholy mess the RepubliCAN'T Party got us into.

markymark said...

I thought Rich's comment was interesting for a number of reasons. Firstly, it shows that the GOP hasn't yet fully grasped just how big a deal Katrina was in shaping the American mindset. Secondly, I don't think that people even for a second thought that this week would have been better if a Republican were in the White House. But most importantly it showed a certain level of desperation in the GOP mindset in waiting for an Obama slip.

Was the week a bad week for the White House? Of course (though I think not as bad as some would say.) But when you've had one bad week in 2 months in the White House, thats a decent start, and I think most Americans, being fair minded , would think something along the lines of 'Well you made a mistake, lets see how you react to it.' Not 'You messed up, there is no way I will vote for you ever again.' This is an invitation for Obama to raise his game, not a moment to give up on the guy.

Darren Lenard Hutchinson said...

I would love to see the numbers for his "policies." "Approval" is a very loaded concept. People absolutely hated Bush, but supported many of his policies. I have seen articles which report that Obama's approval numbers do not translate into support for his initiatives.Ultimately, I think it's too soon to draw conclusions.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Geithener Introduces His Economic Plan to Get the Credit Flowing Again

Leave_me_alone said...

I'm reminded of the Abraham Lincoln quote about not being able to fool all the people all the time.

The facts are that Obama insisted that the Stimulus Bill be rushed through Congress. The Bill was never read by members of Congress so they didn't catch the exemption for AIG executive bonuses. The Obama who promised to go through every bill line by line, who promised days of public viewing and comment on all bills was no where to be seen.

He pushed through the bill, taking advantage of the financial crisis to make his political payoffs. AIG is just the first of many chickens which will find their way home to roost on top of Obama as this porkulus bill has its negative impact on our economy.

Tony C. said...

@leave_me_alone:

The Bill was never read ...

The Obama who promised to go through every bill line by line ...

These bonuses were not in the bill, you illiterate troll. They were a handful of contracts at AIG, which has literally tens of thousands of contracts, maybe hundreds of thousands. It is idiotic to expect Obama to personally read every contract of AIG before signing a rescue bill, he isn't superman.

And with the stock market tanking 2% to 5% a day at the time, I'm glad he pushed through the bill, pork and all. Pork is spending and puts people to work and stimulates the economy.

mikelow1885 said...

A large chuck of the lefty blogosphere (Open Left, Talk Left, Cogitamus, TPM, Politcal Animal) have been very critical of Obama on
AIG and Geithner. Their criticism has been really hard on Obama, but it actually make help Obama look more centrist.

The GOP may not be able to take advantage of the AIG furor because if they block the bonus tax in the Senate, thay appear as defenders of AIG. I think the bonus tax may have some legal issues down the road, but it's important for Democrats to be out front on the populist anger.

As for Senator Dodd, he should announce that he's not running for reelection.

shaka1906 said...

The administration did have quite a bad week. The administration has yet to find good cheerleaders for its policies beyond Obama himself. I'm not sure if its a case of he is so good that everyone pails in comparison or what but they need to work on that. Geithner seems to have no swag or confidence. I do think Obama will knock his press conference out the park because whenever he has time to prepare he always does well with stuff. I'm also concerned about finding 50 votes in the Senate for his budget. Overall if the economy starts to turn around at the end of the year like the administration says all this will be forgotten.

Oh and Dodd is done might as well put a R or I by that seat now.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Thankfully, this is not a blogocracy. Obama's going to come out fine. Geithner, well, that depends on how quickly he can get the credit flowing again.

briefs said...

First, thanks for stopping by my little blog to post your thoughts. I will be curious to watch these same numbers you refer to over the next couple weeks.

Brad said...

Bernanke is their strongest economic voice - they need to use him more.

Leave_me_alone said...

Tony C,

I stand corrected. It was one of the bailout bills not the Stmulus Bill where Dodd and or the Treasury Dept (they keep pointing at each other) inserted language which exempted the AIG bonuses.

But the point remains. Obama made, many times, the absurd statement that he would go through bills line by line and eliminate harmful language. This even though its physically impossible to do and he has no line item veto. But its part of the pile of campaign promises he used to build unrealistic expectations which will come crashing down on him.

By the way, why do you insist on using name calling? Is it because your argument is so weak?

Statler N Waldorf said...

Well, we know a few things for certain. First of all, nobody is born a Republican and Republicanism is a choice. Therefore, since a child does not come out of the womb a Republican, they have to recruit our young people, or else they would all just die out.

Now, we don't let pedophiles teach our kids-should we allow Republicans to? I think not. We should not allow Republicans to 'marry' either- the Bible specifically calls for behaviors that contravene the Republican platform, such as caring for the poor, being tolerant and compassionate, not killing, caring for the physically ill, self-sacrifice for the benefit of others and not accumulating wealth-it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle that for a rich man to enter heaven. Now, you can argue with me as to whether Republicans deserve rights-but you cannot argue with God.

Republicanism is a mental illness. All registered Republicans should be locked up so they will not endanger society as a whole. After all, we've seen recently what happens when you let these deranged monsters near the wheels of power.

Republicanism should be illegal.

Statler N Waldorf said...

That said, I want Republicans to know that I love them-if you can believe that. I love them enough to tell them the truth.

Mike in Maryland said...

slasher14 said...
the silly 90% tax proposal (which [Obama] MUST veto if it gets to his desk)

Why?

Because it's ex post facto?

And if ex post facto for what reason?

If the current tax proposal is ex post facto because those were contracts, contracts that are consider holier-than-shit by some, what about Congress telling other industries that the contracts they have negotiated must be rewritten?

Other industries like the auto industry, which was told that before it could get a bailout, it had to void contracts it had signed with the unions and renegotiate them? If the forcing of AIG's contracts to be considered different, then forcing the contracts between the auto companies and unions to be renegotiated are not ex post facto? Exactly how?

If this legislation gets signed into law (something I see happening), and it is ruled ex post facto (something I do NOT see happening), expect the auto bailout law to be taken to court as ex post facto also.

All those saying the current legislative proposal is ex post facto, please explain why the auto bailout law is not ex post facto. Otherwise all you appear to be doing is supporting the rich (the AIG bonus recipients), not the common working person (the unionized auto workers, retirees and their widows and widowers).

Tony C. said...

@leave_me_alone:

With most Republican trolls, I think their errors are intentional and egregious attempts to manipulate other readers with false or misleading information. Since I think they know it; I also think they don't really care what my argument is.

If I respond in such cases, it is just to correct the record for other readers, not to persuade the troll. I engage in name-calling in those posts because I do think the troll will probably read my response, and I think the troll deserves public humiliation for having engaged in deceit.

As for you, I will refrain in this post because you admitted error, unlike most trolls. However, it is not "physically impossible" to read a bill line by line, and you have no idea whether Obama's campaign promises will come "crashing down" on him.

The most popular presidents ever have broken many campaign promises; including Reagan and Clinton and Kennedy. So what does "crashing down" mean?

Voters elect presidents to be problem solvers in chief; if in four years voters think Obama has solved some big problems they will like him and re-elect him; period. Broken campaign promises and all.

Tony C. said...

@Mike in Maryland:

I believe the argument against "ex post facto" is that tax laws passed in 2009 can apply to 2009 income because 2009 income is not determined until 2009 is over.

Withholding is not a tax; it is like an escrow. If one's actual computed income produces a net tax bill less than withholding, a refund is due from the IRS.

GROG said...

Leave me alone said:


"I stand corrected. It was one of the bailout bills not the Stmulus Bill where Dodd and or the Treasury Dept (they keep pointing at each other) inserted language which exempted the AIG bonuses."

The point is that they had a chance to remove it in the stimulus bill and they made the choice not to. And then they all acted shocked when the bonus payments were made and ultimately this will probably cost Dodd and Geithner their jobs.

But this one incident will not do any harm to Obama. It will all come down to where we are in four years. What affect the ridiculous deficits will have on the long term economy. What affects the printing of money to the tune of tripling the money supply will have on inflation and when people realize cash is a terrible and unsafe investment. These are the things that will win or lose the election for Obama in 2012.

BTW, Tony C. gets himself all angry and worked up into a lather whenever someone doesn't agree with him. And then the name calling starts to fly. Don't take in personally.



Hey Statler...your post is hilarious. (I mean it.)

Statler N Waldorf said...

Grog,

Thanks. I just wish I didn't have a template to work off of.

Saint Dude said...

I wonder why the Rasmussen and Gallup numbers are moving in opposite directions? We all know that Rasmussen has a significant house effect (bias), but is there some reason that this effect is growing?

Perhaps Rasmussen's "likely voter" model selects for pitchfork carrying crazies? After all it is hard to imagine anyone that would have attended a Palin/McCain rally as a paragon of rational behavior. Clearly Rasmussen is capturing more pissed off people than Gallup.

harold said...

If Obama's main opposition came from a strong party that was more liberal, this could hurt him.

However, since for now he and his party only have to run against the Republicans, it can't hurt him. Is anyone going to say "I'm so mad at those corporate and financial fat cats exploiting all the rest of us that I'm going to...vote Republican! Yeah! That will show'em!"? I don't think so.

GROG said...

Saint Dude:
What bias are you talking about? Rasmussen blew the doors off Gallup in the presidential race.

Saint Dude said...

Grog,

The former administration knew of and approved the bonuses in question. Republican's in congress, as well as the blow hards that populate talk radio and faux news are against any effort to recapture the bonus money.

So what is your beef with Obama? Is he too much of a populist, or is he too much in bed with big business, like the republicans that you adore?

As far as I can tell, the republican position on this issue is contradictory and non-sensical. They, and you, agree with the administration's actions, but would like to tap into the anger in the populace to punish them nonetheless.

It is as if you are saying, "Look! Obama is acting like a republican! Boo! Hiss! Republicans suck! He and his people should be run out of office!". While most of us can agree that republican policies do indeed suck, it is a strange argument to hear from the mouths of republicans.

Dwight said...

> If this legislation gets signed into law (something I see happening)

Not as written. What's been passed is something done very quickly by the House. The House isn't noted for it's known as a bastion of measured, deep thought even at the best of times and a hastily drafted bill driven by a crest of public rage isn't the best of times. What will come out of the Senate? Hard to say. But it won't be what what has come out of House. For a number of reasons, not least of which is that Obama has requested some reconsideration be done ... and Joe Biden's economic adviser piping up is a not-so-subtle Whitehouse hint as well.

Saint Dude said...

Grog,

I don't know what election you were watching. Rasmussen's polls were consistent outliers during the entire campaign, always skewed to the republican candidate. It was only during the last week of polls that Rasmussen rejoined the pack, and thereby salvaged his reputation.

Dwight said...

> Is anyone going to say "I'm so mad at those corporate and financial fat cats exploiting all the rest of us that I'm going to...vote Republican! Yeah! That will show'em!"?

For President, unlikely because a GOP Presidential candidate has to appease the numerous factions in the GOP ... as we saw with McCain. But some GOP candidates/elected officials do roughly fit that. But others very much the opposite. That's why you saw such a GOP fracturing on this vote in the House. The GOP as a whole isn't coherent on this matter.

Statler N Waldorf said...

I'd say its an open question as to whether Republicans are human, or just very highly evolved animals. Since we cannot say for certain, there should be laws prohibiting people from mating with Republicans. Possibly, the spawn of such unions could be genetically diseased monsters.

Sex with Republicans is morally equivalent to bestiality, and should be illegal.

GROG said...

Saint Dude:

Conservatives like myself (Bush abandoned conservatism a long time ago during his last term)don't think AIG and the other panhandlers should have received a dime of federal money in the first place. The banks should have failed, but they made a deal with the devil when they took the money and now they can't play by their own rules anymore.

Obama accepted a lot of campaign money from AIG and now he has favors to repay and that's what this is all about. It's either that or he's stupid, and I don't think he's stupid.

Dwight said...

> Sex with Republicans is morally equivalent to bestiality, and should be illegal.

Except in Sweden, Denmark, and the state of Washington.

Statler N Waldorf said...

There are Republicans in Sweden????

Dwight said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Dwight said...

> Bush abandoned conservatism a long time ago during his last term

I'm curious when you think is watershed moment was? Because accounts have it that late summer 2008 he looked hard at the destruction that following through on his ideology would bring down on the country and came to the realization of just how very wrong the path he'd been following was. Leaving his not the least bit disillusioned. What ever the history books end up saying about him, I think they should at least note he didn't go "Hoover" to the bitter end.

Dwight said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Dwight said...

> There are Republicans in Sweden????

If you managed to get that law enacted I foresee a budding Sex Tourism industry starting up there, including nightly "Rush" shows.

Complementary vomit bags and Brian Brillo Pads will be passed out to patrons as they leave.

Statler N Waldorf said...

I have this horrible image of Limbaugh in a bustier.

Saint Dude said...

Grog,

Your distinction between "conservatives" and "republicans" is amusing. It is as if you, and others, are trying to maintain some sort of moral high ground, while throwing some straw man version of the republican party under the proverbial bus.

Face it, republicans have branded themselves for the last 50 years or so as being indistinguishable from conservatism. Even today, every single republican in the country claims to be a "conservative".

Most of us understand that it was republican (i.e. conservative) policies that led us into our current predicament. Blame Bush all you want. But don't expect any quarter from me, unless of course you are willing to separate out and judge the individual merits of liberals and democrats.

In other words, if Obama turns out to be a failure 4 years from now, would you be inclined to blame liberal policies, democrats in general, or just write off Obama as a singular bad apple?

Remember the golden rule.

Saint Dude said...

Correction: Every single republican POLITICIAN claims to be a conservative. Inexplicably, there are republican voters that view themselves as liberals, if we are to believe the pollsters.

GROG said...

Saint Dude:
I am a conservative and a Republican. Bush's fiscal policy was far from conservative. Obama has taken irresponsible fiscal policy to a new level though. So maybe compared to Obama, Bush looks conservative, but he's not.

As a conservative, I believe in small government, strong national defense, and the right to life. All you can do is hope your party follows those principals, and under Bush, it didn't. Spending was out of control.

Do you think any democrats are to blame for the economic situation we're in?

Jenny said...

"Impeach Obama!!!"

Jenny said...

Dear GROG:

as a conservative Republican, what is your short list for the 2012 nomination and why?

Thks in advance.

Statler N Waldorf said...

neoconservative or Rockefeller Republican?

Dwight said...

> I believe in small government, strong national defense

Which is to say "a big expenditure by government is no problem, as long as it's on MY priorities". Don't you think it's time you faced up to the fact that "borrow & spend" has been running the GOP party, certainly at the national level, for a very long time? And not just on "defense".

Jenny said...

GROG:

as a quote-on-quote conservative, did you support the invasion of Iraq?

I ask because true conservatives like Pat Buchanan and Bob Novak opposed the war, but nearly every rank and file quote-on-quote conservative supported the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfled's Trotskyite/NeoCon notion of "nation building".

Statler N Waldorf said...

Well, at least Jenny doesn't discriminate in terms of who she throws verbal bombs at. Liberal, Conservative, we're all targets.

Randomness is if nothing else fair.

Jenny said...

what bombs?

Jenny said...

GROG:

what is "small government"?

For the last three decades the conservative mantra has been deregulation -- get government off the back of wall street.

how did that work out?

GROG said...

Jenny,
Rush Limbaugh because he's the leader of the republican party. (I'm kidding)
Most democrats supported invading Iraq, including Hillary. Yes, I supported it as well.

Dwight,
"borrow & spend" has been running the GOP party, certainly at the national level, for a very long time? And not just on "defense"."

I can't argue with you there. That's why the party is in so much trouble. That's part of the reason the country is in so much trouble. I make no appologies for the way the republican party has acted regarding fiscal policy.

I certainly don't think more of the same with Obama's "borrow and spend" is going to get us out of this recession.

Saint Dude said...

Bush was a conservative:

Tax cuts for the wealthy and corporate welfare. Sure looked republican/conservative to me. After all, this is the same approach that Saint Reagan endorsed. Reagan preached tax cuts and deficits. Bush preached tax cuts and deficits. And now we are to believe that true conservatives give a hoot about deficits. Moreover, Bush was anti-regulation to the extreme. It was a complete economic free for all during his tenure, hard to be much more "conservative" than that.

The TARP was Paulson's brainchild. Hard to pretend that the ex-CEO of Goldman Sachs was anything but a fiscal conservative. In fact, everyone in Bush's cabinet was a conservative.

Bush was certainly a conservative ideologue. His foreign policy was driven entirely by neo-con dreams of a new world order. It would have been impossible for him to make more robust use of the military than he did. And on the domestic front, he carried the water for every conservative crusade possible. He only appointed ideological right to life judges. He placed severe limits on stem cell research. He injected himself in the Terry Shivo (sp?) non sense. Hell, he even claimed some sort of religious justification for his war mongering.

I have no qualms about assigning blame to democrats. But I see no reason to blame democrats for the current economic crisis. Now, if things go from bad to worse, and if the recovery does not begin to take hold by the end of the year, I will be more than willing to start sharing the blame.

Jenny said...

GROG:

I watched the senate vote live. I know.

I ask you, because an unprovoked invasion is anything but "conservative".

Remember, "conservatives" WAS the philosophy AGAINST "big government" and you can't get anymore "big government" than "nation building" an entire foreign country.

GROG said...

Jenny,
This country was founded and built on small government. Small government and capitalism has allowed us to become the richest, most powerful country in the world. Capitalism defeated the Nazis and the Russians. It's found cures to diseases and led to the industrial revolution. We're the sugar daddy for the rest of the world becasue of small government and capitalism. You don't speak German because of small government and capitalism. It think its worked out pretty damn well.

Jenny said...

Saint Dude-

you just don't get it.

Conservatives are against deficits ONLY when they are OUT of power.

Conservatives are against "nation building" ONLY when they are OUT of power.

Conservatives are against "small government" ONLY when they are OUT of power.

Jenny said...

GROG:

This is why you're making me laugh.

You PREACH "small government" yet you admit you supported "nation building" in Iraq.

Once again, "nation building" an entire foreign country is not "small government."

Now: can you name your short list for 2012 or is the filed too embarrassing to list.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Well,

Politics makes us all into hypocrites. I have my own hypocrisy too. I believe marijuana should be legal and tobacco should not. I support a woman's right to choose and oppose war and the death penalty on the basis that it is wrong to kill. I have been opposed to every armed conflict the US has engaged in throughout her history with the exceptions of the Revolution, the Civil War, WW2 and Afghanistan. I'm opposed to war in general-and I wish we had fought in the Spanish Civil War.

You know, when I was a small child, life seemed so very simple to me. It was all so black and white, very concrete. You were either for it or against it. Things could be seen as separate from their context, as pure ideas which everything you ever ran into would be like a shadow of that pure object, a sort of quasi-Plationic view of ideal forms, only not with regard to the physical world but to actions, verbs instead of nouns. I became a vegetarian at the age of nine because I told my mother I didn't want to kill animals for food anymore, and that killing anything was always wrong. I still don't eat meat-but I do like cheese and yoghurt, oddly. And this is in a town where every restaurant serves primarily meat dishes and nothing else-I swear, they'd put bacon in the ice cream if they thought the salt wouldn't make it melt too fast. You can imagine the fights we had whenever we went out for a family meal.

Now, in my adulthood, things seem a bit more nuanced to me. There are some bridges I simply refuse to cross-I have a very difficult time killing the cockroaches in my dorm room without feeling guilty, so I doubt I'd hack it as a soldier. I have no problems with terminating a fetus in the first trimester, however. Maybe that's because I can't get pregnant, so it seems like an issue I'll never have to deal with.

I describe myself as a Democratic Socialist, or Social Democrat-still not sure what the distinction is. Don't have a tattoo of the fist holding a red rose yet, but it's on my list of things to do. There are no political parties int eh US which have a platform that I completely agree with, although I do like a Canadian one-called the New Democratic Party. I vote for, support, donate to and agitate for liberal Democrats, which are still a little to the right of where I sit, but they're the ones that stand the best chance of winning who are closest to me. Is that settling for the best I can get instead of supporting fringe candidates that stand no hope in hell of winning? I guess it is.

Politics makes hypocrites of us all. While it sure is fun to watch the opposition get roasted for being inconsistent, I am not 100% consistent either. Call me a moderate extremist, if you like.

GROG said...

Saint Dude:

Are you saying Obama's a conservative because of his tax cuts and deficits?

I agree that it's ridiculous to blame the Obama admin after 60 days for anything. I don't see, although, how this level of deficit spending and the hyper inflation that we're going to see down the road is going to do anything for long term economic growth.

We're spending money we don't have. When we can't borrow anymore, we just print it. We've more than doubled the money supply. We've spent trillions over the past year in the name of econmoic stimulus and it isn't working. More of the same is not going to work.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Oh, and one last bit of hypocrisy- I'm a flaming leftist, and a total peacenik that thinks the Cold War was bungled-and I wish we had invaded Russia when we had the chance

Dwight said...

> I can't argue with you there. That's why the party is in so much trouble. That's part of the reason the country is in so much trouble. I make no appologies for the way the republican party has acted regarding fiscal policy.

But who's going to have the guts to do it? And do you really think they'll ever get elected? Ronald Reagan knew damn well it wouldn't sell and maybe he even realized it was folly if it did. What he sold was getting less services and "small government" while spending more. It was crazy.

> I certainly don't think more of the same with Obama's "borrow and spend" is going to get us out of this recession.

Ah, but that's "tax and spend". :) Yes, the phrase that's been tossed out with loathing for decades has been the only sane option on the ballot. :/ Really, who was the last real fiscal conservative? Goldman maybe? How'd he do at the polls again? Before that, who? Going back to Hoover I think maybe we can understand why.

Saint Dude said...

Grog,

Interesting filter you have there in your head.

Not sure the men and women that fought in the two world wars would share your assertion that it was capitalism that defeated the Nazis. Likewise, I am not sure why you think "conservatism" has a claim on capitalism.

The Soviets never established a vibrant economy on par with our own, and this ultimately caused them to take a less active role in the world. But as far as I know, the Russians were never defeated. We have never engaged them in battle. They still maintain a massive military and nuclear arsenal.

But by all means, wrap yourself in the flag, God, and apple pie.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Saint-

The Nazis were extreme capitalists-they had an economic system called Corporatism, which was basically free marketerring taken to the ultimate extreme. Fascist Italy did too, as did Spain under Franco.

So the Nazis were capitalists themselves-and we defeated them when we were practicing a form of capitalism tempered by Keynesian interventions that had some elements of socialism. The free market had failed before WW2 broke out and would not be fully restored again until 1980.

publius said...

"Sex with Republicans is morally equivalent to bestiality, and should be illegal."

But then who would patronize call girls, sodomize underage pages, get homosexual handjobs in airport bathroom stalls, and spew huge clouds of hypocritical bulls*t about "family values"?

Statler N Waldorf said...

Allow me to quote FDR, who was President during our war with Fascism:

Franklin D. Roosevelt in an April 29, 1938 message to Congress said:

"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism—ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power"

and

"The Growing Concentration of Economic Power. Statistics of the Bureau of Internal Revenue reveal the following amazing figures for 1935: 'Ownership of corporate assets: Of all corporations reporting from every part of the Nation, one-tenth of 1 percent of them owned 52 percent of the assets of all of them.'"

The free market damn near killed us in '29, and it was pure free market capitalism we fought against in WW2.

It's ridiculous to claim that capitalism defeated the nazis. It would be more accurate to say that moderation defeated extremism.

Statler N Waldorf said...

publius,

As an avowed lifelong homosexual who rather enjoys handjobs, I can say I have never been tempted to look for sex in an airport (or any other location) bathroom stall. Maybe its because I'm not a Republican, and there's something about the GOP that makes you feel aroused by being in the presence of that much shit and piss, but sexy is not at all how I feel when I'm squatting on the throne.

Dwight said...

Sorry, brain fart. Make that Goldwater.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Dwight,

IT,s a real statement of how far from the real center this country has drifted that Goldwater was considered the extreme right candidate of his day, and by modern standards he would be considered a flaming liberal

Dwight said...

> IT,s a real statement of how far from the real center this country has drifted that Goldwater was considered the extreme right candidate of his day, and by modern standards he would be considered a flaming liberal

True that. I don't think "conservative" is an effective label to describe him to the people of today. He was a fiscal libertarian, a libertarian all 'round. These days if he was affiliated with the GOP at all he'd be hanging out with Ron Paul in his own parallel "convention" rather than the RNCC, if he hadn't just completely jumped ship.

Mike in Maryland said...

Statler N Waldorf said...
Well, at least Jenny doesn't discriminate in terms of who she throws verbal bombs at. Liberal, Conservative, we're all targets.

Randomness is if nothing else fair.


True, but her use of parenthetical expressions is quite lacking.

Jenny, my dear, the parenthetical expression is "quote, unquote", or an American variant is "quote, end quote".

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/quote,+unquote

dre7861 said...

Perhaps the American people see the AIG bonuses as a symptom that the things are out of whack and that we need real change - the very reason why Obama was voted into office. And maybe the American people are smart enough to realize that this bonus deal was yet another parting gift left by the Bush regime.

slasher14 said...

Mike In Maryland: I think the bill is silly for several reasons:

1) It's a bad idea to use tax law to afflict a specific group of people after they've done what they said they would do, which in this case was to work out the year. If there was provable fraud, then sue them -- you can do THAT now without new law.

2) The time to get the money was before the checks were handed out, simply by forcing AIG (which we own now), as the company whose name was on the checks, to be the party refusing the payment. This way looks as if the Big Bad Government is picking on people. Chalk this one up as a loss and move on.

3) What banks and brokerages will do to get around the tax is simply raising salaries. Wall Street people regard their bonuses as part of their salaries anyhow -- they work hard to make them as big as possible but the firm NEVER stiffs them completely. If they want you around, they pay a bonus of some kind; if not, you're fired. As has been noted by Nate, all this law accomplishes is to remove the ability of management to reward performance accurately.

3) If you're outraged about Wall Street bonuses, as I am, the thing to do about them is to raise the upper bracket income tax rate not only to 39.6% (the Clinton level) but to 45% or 50% for income over a million dollars. This will have two effects -- it will rake in a lot more money to the Treasury, and since everyone will know that it happened because of the Wall Street bastards simply wouldn't rein in their appetites, those who make a million outside of the financial industry can take their wrath out on those who forced this tax upon them. Obama can then promise a tax cut back to 39.6% AFTER the economy has normalized, which would give the bankers a big incentive to start lending.

Jenny said...

Geithner should ARRESTED!!!!

And if Obama doesn't listen, then the blogosphere should primary President in 2012!

Draft Palin!

Dwight said...

Geithner should ARRESTED!!!!

And if Obama doesn't listen, then the blogosphere should primary President in 2012!

Draft Palin!


If you don't mind I'll mark that down as a vote for "Legalize Marijuana", mmmkay? :D

Jenny said...

Dwight-

Just making fun of mindless populism running through the blogosphere.

Even Nate was bit by the bug, saying Obama didn't have a good week. Yes, if you don't count the overwhelming success of Obama's ratings, Tonight Show appearance, town hall meetings, March Madness ESPN mania, and the 60 Minutes interview, it sucked.

jampacked said...

Nate, next time you address the ridiculousness of taxing away bonuses could you please also respond to Obama saying on 60 minutes that
"as a general proposition, you don't want to be passing laws that are just targeting a handful of individuals. You want to pass laws that have some broad applicability. And as a general proposition, I think you certainly don't want to use the tax code—is to punish people."

It seems Obama is in the same boat as you, and me, in that he wants to change the underlying regulations and the culture that led to such bonuses rather than enacting measures based purely on populist outrage.

wv - fairt - A fart that possesses slightly more brevity than that which is considered normal duration for the expulsion of methane from a rear orifice.

Dwight said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Dwight said...

Ah, I see Jenny. Carry on then. :)

> Even Nate was bit by the bug, saying Obama didn't have a good week.

I'd say, including some of those items you mention, he had an "eventful" week. :) It'll be interesting if and how he manages to bring back some moderation to this matter of AIG bonuses after the House went ballistic, and come out looking good to those really pissed off people. It's pretty clear that bill isn't something that he wants to see come to his desk. Going so far as to say he doesn't intend to "govern out of anger", and that he sees a requirement to try balance just how pissed off people are about this with AIG (and Citicorp for that matter) wearing an vest full of explosives and a finger on a deadman's switch.

It'll be interesting to see what the Senate does with this bill, and if AIG themselves come up with an alternate solution.

Mike in Maryland said...

GROG said...
This country was founded and built on small government. Small government and capitalism has allowed us to become the richest, most powerful country in the world. Capitalism defeated the Nazis and the Russians. It's found cures to diseases and led to the industrial revolution.

Let's see. I think you would agree that a good indication of the strength of the scientific community in a nation is a listing of the winners of the various Nobel Prizes.

Who were the winners of the Nobel Prize in Physics between 1901 (the first given) and 1944?
Germans won or shared 10 prizes.
Brits won or shared 9 prizes.
Americans won or shared 6 prizes (with 3 of those awards in 1939, 1943 and 1944).
French won or shared 4 prizes.
Dutch won or shared 3 prizes.
Italians, Swedes and Austrians won or shared 2 prizes each.
Swiss, Danes and Indians won or shared one prize each.

Can't say there was an overwhelming win, especially an American win, there.

How about the winners of the Nobel Prize in Chemistry between 1901 and 1944?
Germans won or shared 18 prizes.
Brits won or shared 7 prizes.
French won or shared 4 prizes.
Americans won or shared 3 prizes.
Swedes and Swiss won or shared 2 prizes each.
Dutch, Austrians and Hungarians won or shared 1 prize each.

Can't say there was an overwhelming win, especially an American win, there.

Oh. Wait. You said medicine?

How about the winners of the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine between 1901 and 1944?
Germans won or shared 7 prizes.
Americans and Brits won or shared 5 prizes each.
Danes, French and Austrians won or shared 4 prizes each.
Russians, Belgians and Dutch won or shared 2 prizes each.
Italians, Spaniards, Swiss, Swedes, Canadians and Hungarians won or shared 1 prize each.

Can't say there was an overwhelming win, especially an American win, there.

Hint - it was only after World War II that the US started to win a lot of Nobel Prizes, and most of the winners as Americans until the 1960s were foreign-trained.

As to the industrial revolution - better check your history. You'll find that it began in the UK, then spread to Germany and other parts of central Europe before it eventually became widespread in the US. Most of Europe was much more industrially advanced than the US before the 1920s. Until the start of WW II, the UK, Germany, Czechoslovakia and France (especially) were considered much more industrially advanced than the US. Most recognized that the Americans were capable of being an industrially advanced nation (it had the resources, and a trained or trainable work force; and capital was obtainable), but it was only during WW II that the US started to realize that, and become an industrial giant.

Mike in Maryland said...

Dwight said...
It'll be interesting to see . . . if AIG themselves come up with an alternate solution.

Seems the only thing they're doing right now is trying to cover up that the $165 million was not the total of the 'bonus' money given out. There are reports that it might have been as much as $220 million, and maybe even more.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Are you poor, forlorn and hungry?
Are there lots of things you lack?
Is your life made up of misery?
Then dump the bosses off your back.
Are your clothes all patched and tattered?
Are you living in a shack?
Would you have your troubles scattered?
Then dump the bosses off your back.

Are you almost split asunder?
Loaded like a long-eared jack?
Boob - why don't you buck like thunder,
And dump the bosses off your back?
All the agonies you suffer
You can end with one good whack
Stiffen up, you ornery bastard
And dump the bosses off your back.

Lidian & Mike said...

I was against this tax before I was for it. Then I realized that it won't affect anyone I know. Then I realized that it won affect anyone the people I know know. Then I realized that the people it will effect should have been taxed at a higher rate all along.

Hu Chi said...

The general AIG situation is both titanic and inscrutable, while the AIG bonus scandal, by comparison, is miniscule and relatively straightforward.

I'm convinced that the vast majority of Americans do not understand that a billion is a thousand million and that a trillion is a thousand billion. But they do get it that it's wrong to pay one executive a million dollars after he's helped destroy the whole economy. So that's what they get angry about. Emotionally, if not intellectually, logical.
___________
OK, let's say the big recovery number is nine trillion dollars, and the US population is 300 million. That's nine times ten to the twelfth divided by three times ten to the eighth. So we get three times ten to the fourth, or thirty thousand dollars for every American.

It's not a small amount, certainly. And maybe 9 trillion won't do it, but by one inclusive accounting, the Iraq war alone will end up costing three trillion by the time we're done caring for disabled soldiers and losing the labor they might have provided. That's ten thousand dollars for every person in the US--FOR NOTHING!

The GOP's predictions of doom from the Obama deficit are impossible to prove or disprove, but their willingness to throw trillions down the Iraq rathole, and kill tens if not hundreds of thousands of people in the process, should mark them as among the most savage and untrustworthy hypocrites imaginable.

However badly the Obama administration messes up, Republicans have no moral authority whatever. The AIG bonus furor hits Republicans where they live. The public could do much worse than to imagine that every undeserving AIG bonus recipient has a picture of Bush and Cheney on his wall. Thus always to the masters of the universe.

lojasmo said...

@ grog

"Most democrats supported invading Iraq,"

No. A majority of democrats in congress (62% IIRC) voted No on AUMF. 98% of republicans voted yes.

matador said...

@Jenny:
You are the one.

@Grog:
would You please asnwer to Jenny's question:

"...can you name your short list for 2012 or is the filed too embarrassing to list..."

GROG said...

matador:
No matter who I list, it's like tossing up a softball for you all to slam, but that's OK.

My first choice would be Newt Gingrich. Second choice would be John Kasich.

Tony C. said...

@Hu Chi:

I believe the correct metric is taxpayers, to exclude children. The relevant table is here.

There are 225M taxpayers over 18; thus on a $9T debt their average share is $40K. I think it is worth noting their average income (same table) is about $40K, and we can pay interest-only on the $9T at about 2%.

So for the average taxpayer, the debt is about 1 year's worth of income, and the interest is $800 per year, per taxpayer, which works out to about $67 per month.

Just so people have some perspective on it. $67/month is is a pain but affordable. It isn't going to bankrupt American or destroy the American way of life. The majority of college grads have at least this much debt when they graduate, at higher interest and with principle payments to boot, and they still manage to pay it off.

And guess what? They "borrowed and spent" their way to prosperity... :-).

Boing said...

Hu Chi, i do enjoy your posts. They combine insight with a certain snowballing rhythm.

Tony C. said...

@Statler:

Is that settling for the best I can get instead of supporting fringe candidates that stand no hope in hell of winning?

This behavior is not termed "hypocritical" but "pragmatic" or even "rational."

From a game theory perspective, you are maximizing a value. Voting for a known loser is generally a wasted vote; it only has value if you believe the act of voting or the tally of voting will change minds. Or if you feel morally obligated to cast the vote in spite of the impending loss; like losing a fight but going down swinging.

I voted for Obama in a state he would lose; but I wanted to send Texas a message that it wasn't as red as it thought, and I wanted to join with my fellow Dems; I take heart in knowing we are 45% blue and not completely surrounded by fools. And it worked, Chuck Todd on MSNBC told the nation Texas was trending blue and could be a close fight for Republicans in 2012 or 2016, and I hope he is right.

Helping to elect the candidate most likely to effect some changes you agree with is the right answer, not hypocrisy. That chance is their likelihood of legislating how you want, multiplied by their chance of getting elected at all. If the second is effectively zero, they are of zero value to you; unless you believe your vote or contributions will encourage them to continue promoting your issues and agenda to the public, in a way you cannot.

Dwight said...

> but I wanted to send Texas a message that it wasn't as red as it thought, and I wanted to join with my fellow Dems;

What corner of the state? It seems there are some decidedly blue regions (Austin for example). When I move in a few months it'll either be to Harris county (51% Obama) or Montgomery (%76 McCain). Montgomery is actually one of the reddest counties in the state, I believe McCain was actually down from 78% Bush in 2004.

P.S. I don't know if I'll have upgraded from Green Card to Naturalized by 2012, so I don't know if I'll be voting for Pres. Not sure if I'll be voting in the meantime either, apparently it varies state by state whether LPRs can vote locally and at a state level. I haven't seen that list and I'm not holding my breath that Texas is one of them.

Dwight said...

BTW Tony, $67/month is doable. The danger is in the interest rate. If gets pushed up, like it did late 70's/early 80's, it's small size means high multiplier for an otherwise moderate increase. I know you only have to worry at a given time about refinancing a slice of the debt as it rolls over, so a spike won't hit all at once. But a serious spike, over worse a prolonged rise, will smart.

The end-game to fighting this recession is likely inflation, and what is the traditional medicine for inflation? Only if you do that the government now either has to eat that debt in whole or risk fueling price increases if they pass on those increased interest payments directly. It is going to get ugly for a bit till things stabilize.

PorridgeGun said...

GROG said...

Do you think any democrats are to blame for the economic situation we're in?



Absolutely, the Blue Dogs.

Tony C. said...

@Dwight:

I am in Ciro Rodriguez's district; my neighborhood leans slightly Dem.

Remember you are talking about rates the Govt must pay on bonds and T-Bills and international paper, not what consumers pay. Foreign countries think the chance of a US Govt default is zero, so their loan rates aren't high at all.

I would rather the Govt pay down the debt; if they do not and just print money to cover it, they create inflation. But the inflation is the equivalent of a flat tax (very regressive, because the less you make the greater the percentage of your income is spent and thus the more inflation affects you). The inflation won't be terrible; I'd give a number but I don't have the numbers on the current money supply and what portion $9T would be. And it depends on whether they just print money to cover the interest, or pay it down pretty aggressively.

markymark said...

In my opinion its not the center that has shifted in America, its the battlefield that is different. In 1964 how many people really cared enough about abortion to base political affiliation or choice of preferred candidate on that issue. It was possible to be socially conservative and be a Democrat. It was possible to be socially enlightened and be a Republican. Now I don't think it would be hard to imagine LBJ as a Republican (save for the Civil Rights Act) and Nelson Rockefeller as a Democrat say.

But Goldwater would still be a conservative, he might have a maverick reputation, like McCain, but he would still be a Republican conservative.

Dwight said...

> Remember you are talking about rates the Govt must pay on bonds and T-Bills and international paper, not what consumers pay

A year+ ago it was 4-5%. We saw 13-14% on US T-Bills in the early 80's. I remember that period distinctly. I was young but my parents had one of their loans at 19%. That was a loan secured by land, not some unsecured Discovery Card or something. They were fortunate that most of their debt (starting out farming) was locked in lower through that period, not everyone one was and it was a really ugly time.

It isn't just a question of default. The T-bill buyer also must have confidence that the cash you get back out won't be devalued by inflation, and there has to be enough people out there with wealth to loan you. Part of the reason it's so low now is that it's a seller's market for T-bills, and the other is that there was some deflation going on (or disinflation, depending on what period you are looking over). You do NOT want to get into the buyer's market part of the curve, it gets really ugly.

Hu Chi said...

Tony C

Thanks. I knew I was using extremely crude metrics. Your post makes the point much more clearly.

Boing

Thank you too. Can I quote you on that? It will look good on my underground resumé. The "snowballing" is often the result of trying to stop before I've worn out my welcome, while wanting to rant on like a troll (though a droll troll).

In the case of that last post, I was getting angrier by the minute. I'd like to take every pothead out of prison and replace him with a neocon --thus giving the term a new meaning.

Jenny said...

@GROG

Well, atleast you didn't say Palin.

But as for Newt, his personal life is worse than John Edwards.

Lets remember, Edwards cheated on his wife while she was recovering from cancer.

Newt served his wife with DIVORCE papers while she was STILL in the hospital recovering from cancer.

Plus, lets face it, if the country couldn't trust a 73 year old mccain at the held, they're not gonna take to a 69 year old, overweight Newt.

Kasich - ehhh, his personal life is a mess, including his association with Lehman Brothers.

Mike in Maryland said...

Tony C. said...
So for the average taxpayer, the debt is about 1 year's worth of income, and the interest is $800 per year, per taxpayer, which works out to about $67 per month.

A fool's calculation of the amount of debt owed per taxpayer. Similar to how many were hoodwinked into buying 'interest-only' mortgages, and then found themselves in trouble.

If only the interest on that debt is paid, not the debt itself, the debt will never be paid. In other words, it will be paid at infinity, and for infinity, the interest will continue to be $67 per month per taxpayer. Since people get old and die, and younger people who are not now taxpayers become taxpayers, they will eventually have to start paying that $67 per month for as long as they live, and then that $67 per month will start to be paid by their children when they become taxpayers, and then that $67 per month will start to be paid by THEIR children when they become taxpayers, and so on and so on until the actual debt, not just the interest, is paid.

Dwight said...

> If only the interest on that debt is paid, not the debt itself, the debt will never be paid. In other words, it will be paid at infinity, and for infinity, the interest will continue to be $67 per month per taxpayer.

Which isn't such a bad deal when you realize that $67 to your grandson is going to be maybe the equivalent to $15 to you right now. If you actually manage to hold the line of the number for the total debt then over time even very moderate inflation brings the actual value of the debt goes down.

The tricky part is getting to and holding that zero budget deficit for an extended period of time ... without some bumpkin coming in and deciding that it's a great opportunity to regress income taxes and blow a huge wad on an ill advised war.

Hu Chi said...

M in M

Assuming the $67/mo interest is correct, it would seem foolish to just pay out that amount forever, as you suggest. One would hope that the principal could be addressed over time as well.

Still, look at what the average person gets for their monthly health insurance premium, which is probably ten times that $67. The case could be made that some reforms just on that front could go a long way toward covering the cost of Obama's programs.

Dwight said...

Dwight said...
It'll be interesting to see . . . if AIG themselves come up with an alternate solution.

Mike in Maryland said...

Seems the only thing they're doing right now is trying to cover up that the $165 million was not the total of the 'bonus' money given out. There are reports that it might have been as much as $220 million, and maybe even more.


Those are prior bonuses. Evidence of current attempts to cover that up are?

Anyway it seems the message is getting through to some at the top end of the bonus pay list.

Dwight said...

That should read: Evidence of attempts to cover that up is what, exactly?

Tony C. said...

@Mike in Maryland:

If the interest is $67/month, then double it and it will be paid in fifty years. not to mention, at a paltry 2% inflation rate, fifty years from now the payment will be $25/month. And if the money isn't just spent but is invested in infrastructure, schools, research and energy independence, it will pay for itself several times over in added productivity and the termination of oil profits to the middle east.

And I am sick of people talking about the poor kids. Kids don't pay taxes, adults pay taxes. Adults that can understand why there is debt and what purpose it served.

This is no fool's calculation, it is the right way to put the debt into perspective. It isn't that big, actually, and especially so if it is an investment and not a boondoggle like the war in Iraq.

Hu Chi said...

Whatever the math, the question now is: What can we get for the money?

Or maybe: What are we likely to get?

Or: What do we need to get?

I know what's on my list, but having voted for Obama, I hope he can deal with it.

Dwight said...

Or maybe: What are we likely to get?

Or: What do we need to get?

If Obama manages to swing nothing else in his entire 4 year term outside of:
1) avert the current potential financial train wreck
2) bring in new set of financial services regulations building on what we've seen go wrong
3) implement a quality national health care retooling

Then he'd coast into the history books as a top ten President. Just the potential economic payoff from those three is that big.

matador said...

Jenny said...
@GROG

Well, atleast you didn't say Palin.

But as for Newt, his personal life is worse than John Edwards.

Lets remember, Edwards cheated on his wife while she was recovering from cancer.

Newt served his wife with DIVORCE papers while she was STILL in the hospital recovering from cancer.

Plus, lets face it, if the country couldn't trust a 73 year old mccain at the held, they're not gonna take to a 69 year old, overweight Newt.

Kasich - ehhh, his personal life is a mess, including his association with Lehman Brothers.

March 23, 2009 5:23 PM

@GROG,
You see GROG,you were worry for nothing to tell your choice at loud.
Nobody argued too much with your choice.
So I recon ,Newt is way above Palin.
And this is the reason why GOP would never pick Him.
...sorry to say...
:)