3.31.2009

GM's Problems are 50 Years in the Making

Let's take something of a 30,000-foot view on the condition of General Motors. The chart below details GM's operating margin -- its profits divided into its revenues -- over the past 50 years:



I haven't provided the dates on the chart because they aren't important. The auto business is highly cyclical because consumers are buying expensive assets that last for years at a time. Nobody ever really has to buy a new car (they can buy a used one if their car breaks down), and therefore consumers are willing to hold on to their existing vehicles and wait out economic slumps. You can't do that with, say, a loaf of bread, or even something like a cellphone, which has a much shorter lifespan.

But you knew all of that already. The remarkable thing is that, once you account for the economic cycles, the trend for GM is exceptionally steady -- an exceptionally steady trend downward. There were still bad times thirty years ago -- but they weren't bad enough to threaten GM's survival, and conversely, the good times were much better. These are General Motors' operating margins by decade:

Average Annual Operating Margin, General Motors
1960s: 8.7%
1970s: 5.5%
1980s: 3.0%
1990s: 1.3%*
2000s: -0.5%
* Excludes one-time $20 billion accounting charge for retiree health benefits in 1992.
If I were an alien beaming down from Rigel-3 looking at this pattern -- an alien with an MBA degree -- my first guess is that it would reflect some sort of systemic problem, some chronic imbalance that magnified over time. Something, in other words, like the costs of GM's retiree pension and health care programs. It's difficult to get a precise figure on these so-called legacy costs, but they averaged about $7 billion per year between 1993 and 2007 and are probably at least $10 billion per year now. Considering that GM has never made as much as $10 billion in profit in a year and that its entire operating lossses in 2008 were $13.8 billion, you can see why this is a significant problem.

Of course, GM benefited by promising its employees access to lucrative retirement programs -- it benefited by being able to pay less to those employees in the form of salary. But whereas the benefits to GM came long ago, the costs come now. This, indeed, is the entire crux of the problem, as is cogently explained by this Washington Post article from 2005:

GM began its slide down the slippery slope in 1950, when it began picking up costs for medical insurance, pensions and retiree benefits. There was huge risk to GM in taking on these obligations -- but that didn't show up as a cost or balance-sheet liability. By 1973, the UAW says, GM was paying the entire health insurance bill for its employees, survivors and retirees, and had agreed to "30 and out" early retirement that granted workers full pensions after 30 years on the job, regardless of age.

These problems began to surface about 15 years ago because regulators changed the accounting rules. In 1992, GM says, it took a $20 billion non-cash charge to recognize pension obligations. Evolving rules then put OPEB on the balance sheet. Now, these obligations -- call it a combined $170 billion for U.S. operations -- are fully visible. And out-of-pocket costs for health care are eating GM alive.

GM was willing to cut its employees some very attractive deals in the 1950s through the 1980s -- provided that they took them in the form of retirement benefits rather than salary, which wouldn't hit GM's books until much later and which until 1992 weren't even required to be carried on its balance sheets all, making its financial statements (superficially) more appealing to its shareholders. That health care costs have risen so substantially in the United States have made a bad matter worse.

This issue is wrongly portrayed by both the liberal and the conservative media as one of management versus labor, when really it is a battle between General Motors past and General Motors present. In the 50s, 60s and 70s, everyone benefited: GM and its shareholders got the benefit of higher profit margins, and meanwhile, its employees benefited from GM's willingness to cut a bad deal -- for every dollar they were giving up in salary, those employees were getting a dollar and change back in retirement benefits. But now, everyone is hurting.

Nor does this provide for much in the way of solutions. The retirees might have benefited from GM's short-sightedness -- but they also worked hard Monday through Friday every week of in expectation of receiving the benefits that GM had promised them. From the standpoint of fairness, it would be much better to require GM to take the hit -- but there isn't much of GM left to punish, as its outstanding retiree obligations exceed its market capitalization many times over, and as the decision-makers who led GM into this position left the company decades ago. Today's employees at GM, and the unions that organize them, likewise don't have anything much to do with the problem -- most of the excess costs it requires to produce a Buick versus a Toyota come in the form of legacy costs, not what those employees are receiving in salary and benefits today. And the taxpayer is bound to to get screwed either way, either picking up the tab to bail out GM, or bearing the costs of the pension programs, which are guaranteed by the government (although the legacy health benefits aren't guaranteed).

Policy-makers, finally, share in the blame too. General Motors might be the latest casualty of the distorted incentives created by our employer-based health care system. Meanwhile, the government would probably improve incentives by providing a more generous Social Security guarantee in lieu of guaranteeing private pension programs. The whole idea of Social Security is that people do an inadequate job of saving when left to their own devices. But companies, even companies as big and proud as General Motors, are overly concerned with the present as well.

127 comments

Linden said...

So the car industry has been screwing itself for half of its existence. Not too surprising.

Jersey said...

Also, they need to make cars people want to buy. Little detail. =)

If it's the legacy costs, maybe the best short-term answer is for the government to pick up the pensions, to lift that weight and let GM get competitive. Long-term, obviously its some kind of HC and SS fix (i.e. means-testing? Though I wouldn't want to scare away the rich people).

Scott said...

For the brain-dead, let me translate this article much more accurately and concisely: GM's problem is the union contracts it signed.

jroc133 said...

Great post, Nate and you really deal w/ this issue objectively. Its not about labor vs management. Its about out w/ the old and in w/ the new.

The unfortunate thing for the automakers is that they screwed their employees on the front end only to get screwed on the back w/ the cost of retirement and the explosion of Health Care.

Obama just made a historic move yesterday by getting rid of Rick Wagoner (whether it was warranted or unwarranted), this sends a message on two fronts.

1.) If you want to come to the govt w/ your handout, be prepared to face some form of judgment...

2.) If you are apart of the problem, the govt won't make you apart of the solution...

The era of big govt has returned, but this time its govt that is concerned about keeping this country alive and reinforcing why we are the best country in the world. Welcome to the 21st century, USA...

Bill Clinton effectively set the table for us to address the changing world, W screwed it up b/c he was surrounded by the neocons and the '80's Reaganism. 20 years too late and damn near 30 years out of touch.

Its gonna take a lot to turn things around. Wagoner was the first, many more are to come...

Michael Miller said...

Here is one solution for the Big 3's legacy costs -- the Congress should act to immediately enroll the Big 3’s autoworkers (active and retired) and their families in Medicare and also pay half the costs of their Medigap insurance. Call this a pilot test of one potential strategy for national health care. If it works well for autoworkers, then do the same for all citizens. The time has come to establish a program of universal health care for all that relieves all domestic employers of the burden of healthcare -- a burden that they cannot sustain and remain competitive with off-shore employers. How to pay for this program? One possible answer -- a sales or value added tax that applies to all goods and services including imports but exempts such necessaries as food staples and apartment rents.

fred said...

Both true and untrue Nate.

GM has functioned as a employer for large parts of this period, and not as a market participnat would. The UAW had GM's throat and and held them under.

The argument is - as GM got smaller it had financial issues, and could not afford a long stirke years ago. That fact allowed the UAW to stop movement of factories to lower priced markets, stopped innovation (plants were not allowed to automate), and GM was saddled with thousands of doallrs in legacy costs per vehicle (GM retirees have amazingly good healthcare for life and they never transistion to medicare). All these are int he UAW contracts. They also finally got into the place where a large fragment of their cars were sold to their employees or retirees. This caused a real catch-22 and they had noone with the power or guts at the top to make the needed change.

Keep in mind, the guy who just left was not a car guy, but instead a fiance guy - who led GM into the home mortgage market in 2005.

Lots of bad choices, by both management and labor got them here - it is good Obama has the guts to fix the at least attack the problem.

Dheck said...

Great post. One important historical note: Walter Reuther and the UAW organized the Committee of One Hundred to fight for universal health care coverage, which would have prevented this problem. Because of political and ideological reasons (not reasons of sound management), GM fought it tooth and nail. If the union movement had been STRONGER they would've forced more sane management practices on GM and passed universal health care coverage to boot. GM, and everyone else, would be a lot better off. We're paying for the short sighted ideology of GM's managers in the 50s...and all the populist rage in the world can't go back and fire them. What we can do is revamp our health care system now to keep this problem from recurring.

Ryan & Liz said...

Nate you do a great job pointing out the generalized problem here. After promising the benefits back in the day GM chose to pay out higher profits rather than adequately fund their obligations to the workers. They got away with this because of very bad accounting rules. In this sense, it is the same old story as other accounting scandals just played out in slow motion. Remember that through much of this period accounting rules allowed companies to assume any rate of return they wanted on money invested in pension funds when doing their books. GM was not the only company that simple "estimated high" as a way to make the numbers work for the shareholder (in the short term). The union should have pushed harder for timely adequate funding, but they put it off as well. Stupidity (or humanness) on both sides + bad accounting rules = pay the piper.

harold said...

Scott said -

For the brain-dead, let me translate this article much more accurately and concisely: GM's problem is the union contracts it signed.

First of all, that's half the story. The other half is that they won't make cars that people want to buy.

GM's long term insistence on ill-made gas guzzlers borders on the ideological.

Second of all, what was wrong with the union contract is not how much employees are paid, per se, but how they are paid.

To save cash in the fifties, GM handed out retirement and medical plans in lieu of wage increases.

GM would have far fewer problems if the US had a normal health insurance system, like other developed countries. If, say, we just gave Medicare to everyone, regardless of age. The incremental cost of that would be very low, as Medicare already covers the oldest and sickest, far more efficiently than private insurers.

Medical science took GM to the cleaners. Their employees are living longer than GM expected in the fifties, and there's more that doctors can do when those retirees get ill.

(Of course, as medical science advances, society sometimes pays more of its resources for health care, which is worth it since the alternative is preventable suffering and death - if you think about it, it would be far better to travel by horseback but have modern medicine than to fly helicopters but have eighteenth century medicine - but other developed countries have universal systems that cover everyone, yet are far more cost effective than ours.)

William said...

I've always wondered why these car companies build so many cars. There's no way they are building to demand anymore. Go to any dealership and ask to see a "2009 Car X" and they will have 5-10 different ones in the lot. The one with the color you like doesn't have the 6 disc CD changer and the rear spoiler? No problem! Wait 2 weeks and they'll make one for you.

Seriously now, it's ridiculous. I don't mind waiting two weeks for a brand new car if that means for every one of mine there aren't 10 more made just wind up in an parts auction somewhere.

Tony C. said...

Interesting that the problem from fifty years ago is the same damn problem we have with credit default swaps and the rest of the financial meltdown:

Unfunded Commitments.

GM promised to insure workers, AIG promised to insure against defaults, and neither one has the money to pay for their promises. And in both cases, the frikkin' money to pay is either gone or never existed, and there is no way to ever get it back or raise it, so people get screwed.

It is simply fraud, all around. We taxpayers are going to get screwed for it, we should just face it and get on with absorbing the mess, and demanding this pervasive plague of unfunded commitments MUST STOP.

phastphil said...

Pick-up trucks and older designed SUV's are basically model T technology. Body on frame, cheap and easy to produce. Yes over the years they added gizmos and other bells an whistles, but still model T technology and therefore very profitable. I don't fault the automakers of taking advantage of this and making a profit the problem I have is that they didn't invest those profits into new technologies and human resources.

Juris said...

One point needs emphasis in this constructive discussion. If we follow the advice of "Medicarizing" all of GM's legacy medical benefits, and if we extend that to all American businesses -- in other words, we develop a single payer national health insurance system -- the whole country becomes slaves to "legacy costs."

UNLESS we also get control over the costs of medical care. COST and INEFFICIENCY are the more important parts of the solution to the health care crisis.

I don't want to be paying GM's legacy health costs if those costs are growing willy-nilly.

harold said...

Scott said -

For the brain-dead, let me translate this article much more accurately and concisely: GM's problem is the union contracts it signed.

Also, I'll note that while almost every country on earth has some extremely wealthy people, it is clearly the fate of the people who are in the middle or on the bottom that reflects the overall quality of life in a country.

I believe in ambitious people trying to get wealthy, in fact, that's what I'm trying to do, but I want to be wealthy in a humane and happy society.

Constant bashing of unions carries with it the implication that the US economy should be built on low wages for ordinary workers. But that isn't necessarily a policy that benefits anyone in the long term - not even shareholders who pay the wages.

Contrary to propaganda, UAW workers are not all that outrageously well-paid, and anyway, some foreign car-maker plants in the US are unionized, yet highly profitable. How would GM be doing if they had all-volunteer labor? Still not that well.

GM made the very cynical business decision of backloading pay (I say "cynical", not "poor", because those who made the decision probably died wealthy a long time ago). They made another cynical decision, to push oil-guzzling cars at all costs and to sabotage national and state efforts are fuel economy. And to top it off, the US made the poor decision to balk at universal health care coverage.

Now those who invested in GM are suffering for all of those things.

Hypnotoad said...

So an older, retiring workforce brought GM to its knees - any parallels to the national population as a whole?

gbthrone said...

Again, poster are missing the point, as is Nate. The real problem, which was evident in the undergrad business admin classes I took decades ago is this: We have a financial market system totally focused on short-term results. 30 years ago, there was ignored concern that too much focus was being placed on quarterly returns. Now it's daily stock price returns. If you think that three months is a long-term financial cycle, of course you will make decisions that turn out to be ticking time bombs thirty years later. GM had a serious design/marketing problem, as did Ford during the first gas crisis. Unfortunately, everything the engineers came up got turned, by styling and marketing, into an uncomfortable stinker that you threw away at 50 k miles (remember the Vega? Or the Citation?) In terms of longevity, a lot of the Japanese stuff wasn't much better, but it at least was comfortable to drive, and didn't break.

Juris said...

@gbthrone: all car makers have produced clunkers from time to time.

The issue in recent years for GM is that despite their size they didn't diversify their products enough, and at the same time they pushed the hell out of sales of light trucks and SUVs because the margins on sales of those vehicles were much much higher than on other vehicles.

In effect, they were maladapted to a changing economic environent, including rising fuel costs -- relying on production of vehicles that are turning out to be a declining niche in terms of consumer demand.

I do think the American car makers produce some high quality vehicles. But when I wanted to buy a hybrid sedan last year? Not in the U.S.A. OK in a couple of months we'll see the Ford Fusion hybrid; I'll take a look. I wonder if those will be making a profit for Ford.

Wa - 7th said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Chris said...

While I think many of the comments are correct in saying the current problem is lack of diversity and interesting cars, Nate does a good job in revealing the underlying systemic problem facing the company. Think of it as a perfect storm where the half-century teetering GM is likely blown away.

Nate, could you show us some numbers comparing the costs in employee benefit guarantees versus pure government supply of benefits?

Statler N Waldorf said...

This is precisely why we need a single payer universal insurance plan. If you're relying on private industry to provide insurance 1) they can afford it during good financial times-when you don't need it-and can't afford it during bad times-when you do.

Employer based health insurance is simply a burden upon the employer. It's cheaper for everyone when thew gov't runs it, because you can pool the risk and spread it out over the entire population, thereby eliminating the problem of the sickest people all opting for one plan and the healthiest opting for no plan at all- and employers don't get stuck with a yoke around their necks they can only handle when the economy is strong.

Collective action is something the US has shunned for 30 years,because we were/are so paranoid of the Soviets that anything even remotely like the USSR was to be run away from. The Cold War's over, and there is no USSR anymore, so you can stop running now. The monster under the bed was just a shadow.

The fact is, there are some things the individual cannot do alone. Kinda like when your car craps out in the middle of the street and you need someone to push the thing while you steer it to the curbside to get it out of the way of traffic. Sometimes, the job requires more than just one person. Insurance is like that. The collective muscle of the people as manifested by the government of the people (by and for the people as well) can deal with the insurance problem, whereas the current system of the employer shoulders the whole burden by themselves can't.

harold said...

Juris wrote -

COST and INEFFICIENCY are the more important parts of the solution to the health care crisis.

Yes, but the inefficiency in the US (relative to in other developed countries) is largely the result of the existence of private health insurers. It is quite possible that their focus on denying payments and refusing coverage is actually irrational, and that they overpay for administrative costs to achieve these goals. Whether that is true or not, Medicare is far, far more efficient.

Whether Medicare is also not efficient enough is a damn good question, but it is clearly more efficient than the other insurers. Therefore expanding Medicare coverage to everyone would be an excellent first step, highly acceptable to everyone except private insurance companies.

I'm in favor of any reasonable single payer universal plan, but just expanding Medicare would be sooo eeeasssy relative to anything else...

gbthrone -

Again, poster are missing the point, as is Nate. The real problem, which was evident in the undergrad business admin classes I took decades ago is this: We have a financial market system totally focused on short-term results. 30 years ago, there was ignored concern that too much focus was being placed on quarterly returns. Now it's daily stock price returns.

That's a good point, although it's not quite so straightforward. Even under the current concept that all "stakeholders" need to be considered (a concept I agree with), shareholders are major stakeholders. If a large proportion of shareholders want management to focus on short term results, it creates a dilemma, at least for stakeholders who prefer sustainability.

Nobody "missed" that point. The fact that GM focused on the short term was implicit in what I said above, and in a number of other comments. However, others have said more than just that.

Tony C. -

That's an extremely good point.

Of course, the insurance business is by definition about unfunded commitments, in the sense that no insurance company could possibly pay every claim at one time, and it would be highly unreasonable to demand that, but that industry needs to be tightly regulated. It actually is, but AIG was able to play games to evade existing regulations.

Fractional reserve banking (they don't actually keep all the money deposited in the bank at one time) is another key example of necessary "unfunded" commitment, and again, tight regulation is required.

Committing to pensions that you are likely not to be able to pay is actually at least as unethical as anything AIG did.

The Casual Observer said...

Harold:
"Medical science took GM to the cleaners. Their employees are living longer than GM expected in the fifties, and there's more that doctors can do when those retirees get ill."

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.

GM had no idea that so many people would be living into their 80s (and beyond), be kept alived on machines for years, etc. They assumed that people will live to 65 or 70 and then just die quietly.

This is one of those things that may have sounded like a good idea at the time (probably helped attract good employees), but not so good in hindsight.

Andy said...

Did anyone consider that GM is facing tougher competition than it did in the 60's/70's and that all car makers are running on smaller operating margins?

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Can someone explain to me why Ford is doing so much better than GM and Chrystler then?

Why didn't they require the bail-out cash?

What is Ford doing differently? They must be doing something right. Did they not get caught up in these expensive retirement bonuses or something in the past maybe?

Vijay said...

Nate, I know you chose to use a linear trendline. I'm wondering if that's right - looking at the operating margins, could the trend be something of a logarithmic curve instead, only now entering the steep part of its slope?

Also curious about the Ford trendline.

Tony C. said...

@Statler:

I agree, but perhaps for a different philosophical reason. I worked as a consultant for a large hospital chain for three years.

In my view, there are certain jobs that we as a people do not want done at a profit. For example, inspecting our food, drugs and buildings for safety, or licensing or certifying our doctors, lawyers, and accountants, or running our courts, or determining our laws. The profit motive is too big of a corrupting factor in these enterprises. (Not the only one, but one we can eliminate).

I submit that health care insurance has achieved that distinction as well: Profit motives are killing patients. Giant corporations seem to have abandoned all moral pretenses. The abuses seem intractable and it is time for health care to become a non-profit business, even if that is inefficient (but the post office is not that inefficient).

This is a separate issue from reducing costs or becoming more medically efficient or smart, this is a matter of protecting the physical and financial lives of patients.

The medical industry is not like selling iPods; when a man has a heart attack or stroke neither he nor his family is in a position to haggle over the cost of the ambulance or the price of saving his life. Cosmetic and voluntary procedures are a small cohort in most hospitals, the vast majority of patients are only there to save their lives. This is not a market environment where competition will drive down prices; people may choose dentists that way, but not MDs.

Health care and health insurance should be non-profit enterprises, or defined profit enterprises. It is not a fair bargaining position for any person or firm to effectively hold your life or your loved one's life hostage for pay; that is why we outlaw kidnapping.

My main point is that I don't care what the money argument is for or against government run health care and insurance; it is the morally correct thing to do.

Juris said...

Regarding Ford, though I don't have all the information, here's a couple of points.

Ford is stil substantially Ford-family dominated. They didn't want bailout money because they didn't want the government meddling into family business.

But American "Big Three" contracts are very similar to one another -- they all have much the same wage and fringe benefit structures. (These may have been managed differently.)

Ford has made much the same mistakes that GM has made in terms of product development for the U.S. market. But Ford has some highly successful small-midsized cars that are well received in Europe (the Fiesta) that they didn't plan to sell in the U.S.! Until the bottom fell out of the market. And so beginning with the 2010.5 market, they will be producting that "European Fiesta" for the U.S. market -- producing it in MEXICO!

And in the meantime, Ford decided to end the Taurus line a few years ago -- it's most successful car ever! (I owned three of them -- not at one time....). Whaaat? Until they also got smart and decided to reinstate the product.

In short, I imagine that any of the broader solutions to the American car manufacturing costs for GM or Chrysler will also help Ford, but Ford won't take the federal money directly.

It could also be that Ford is more diversified in terms of its markets than is GM -- namely, Ford has a higher percentage of its sales outside the U.S. Maybe somebody else can comment on this.

PeteKent said...

Andy has raised a good point.

For years the big three dominated the market and behaved like an oligopoly pretty much free to set prices and soak up most available demand. That such a market was allowed to exist reflects the importance the government has traditionally placed in our auto industry viewing it as a vital part of our national security apparatus.

Once the foreign car makers learned how to build cars that appealed to the American consumer and got smart and started making them here so as to minimize political interference the economic model of the big three began to weaken. This was accelerated by free trade policies that abandoned protectionism in favor of consumerism, denying business artificial barriers to entry that protected the few at the expense of the many. That’s a good thing.

The unions of course were complicit in all of this until competition arrived, and management permitted it, not wanting to endure labor strife that might kill the goose that was laying all those golden Chevy's.

Once competition in the marketplace arose with a vengeance the consumer benefited by greater choice and lower prices, but the Big Three suffered as did their workers as they were burdened with legacy costs that the new competitive environment could not absorb as readily.

The only solution here is bankruptcy. Long term the wages and bennies have to be driven down to competitive levels or we should allow these companies to fold.

The folks who work in Detroit can migrate south and find work, if they like. The foreign car makers are doing great relatively speaking and would enjoy the influx of talent. All consumers would benefit.

One thing we know for sure: A President who has never worked a real job, for a real company that must make profits in order to survive really has no cred to be telling American business what to do. Obama ought to stand back and let the market work this out. His meddling is only delaying the inevitable and making things worse.

(You can now follow me on Twitter: PeteKent01)

The Casual Observer said...

Forgot to mention this in my initial post.

On 12/31/08, GM's net worth was negative 85 billion. The picture is even worse today.

Even if GM were to dramatically turn things around make a profit of 10 billion per year (which nate said they have NEVER done in their history), it would still be a decade before the balance sheet went positive. More realistically, it would take 25 years to get back to 0.

Could Ford emerge as a winner in this? If GM and Chrysler are forced to cease operations, consumers who want to buy an "American" car will have one alternative - Ford. This could result in Ford nabbing a very good chunk of the GM/Chrysler market share.

Also, Ford would stand to gain leverage in negotiations with the UAW the next time around, due to fewer options for the works (and likely high unemployment in the union ranks)

PeteKent said...

In fact, Tony C, the better way is to move toward consumer-driven health care and away from command and control which will only lead to government rationing and further human misery.

If something is free then there must be a means to control insatiable demand. Look at Soviet era Russia as a flawed but telling example of where that ultimately leads.

In the capitalist system we use price and competitiveness to ration goods and services and the profit motive has served us exceedingly well in satisfying human want. After all, what do you thing brought us from being cave dwellers to modern, consumer-oriented societies where every whim and desire can seemingly be satisfied with just a few mouse clicks. Socialism? I think not!

It is counterintuitive that we let markets work everywhere else but not in healthcare.

We must break the tie between employment and healthcare and give the consumer more not less choice. Even insurance companies will be forced to be competitive if artificial competitive barriers were eliminated and consumers were free to bring their business where it suited them most.

The one thing that can be said for eliminating the profit motive is that it will assure a drain of capital and talent from healthcare and the American people will be left with a healthcare system that only the Cubans could admire!

Tony C – let’s hope you are not influencing policy debates ‘cause you are an ass!


(You can now follow me on Twitter: PeteKent01)

Boing said...

Can anyone give me a really good reason why the following, which I posted in another thread, is a bad idea?

That all basic insurance - life, home, car, medical, travel - be taken on by the state. Anything beyond that would be allowed - if sports starts or musicians wanted to insure their hands and feet for millions, they could do so through private companies (the point is to cover against catastrophe from the common wealth, not to punish corporations.)

Government wouldn't be allowed to take big risks with your premiums, but could invest cautiously, and if there was a big surplus some could be spent on foreign aid in the event of a major disaster like the tsunami.

Juris said...

@Boing: I feel a tsunami of Pete Kent core rant dumping coming forward in response to your question.... here it comes, rumble, rumble.

Boing said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Boing said...

Hehe... I dare say. Though Pete has always mercifully ignored me thus far.

I don't really want to get into an ideological discussion about state intervention per se, but I'd be interested to hear why it wouldn't work, as no-one I've yet asked, including some very high-flying economists, have given me a really satisfactory answer.

John said...

this is stupid.. hundreds of companies operate with negative operating margins..

again i think u don't kno what u r talking about nate

but i did like the 2012 post

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Petey said:

"Once the foreign car makers learned how to build cars that appealed to the American consumer and got smart and started making them here so as to minimize political interference the economic model of the big three began to weaken. This was accelerated by free trade policies that abandoned protectionism in favor of consumerism, denying business artificial barriers to entry that protected the few at the expense of the many. That’s a good thing."

What is a good thing? Foreign auto makers coming here and undercutting ours? American work forces in certain regions becoming decimated is a good thing for the economy.

At times I wonder where the Republican's heart lies honestly.

I'm sure you know why all the foreign auto makers came here right? Word on the street is when your boy Reagan put massive tariffs on foreign cars to protect the U.S. auto industries, they got smart and set up shop here. Well, the Southerners gave them sweet deals through low tax incentives to make their home in the south. That's the gist of it.

Tony C. said...

@Boing:

What you describe is just a form of socialism (not that there is anything wrong with that). The "premiums" are simply taxes demanded by the government, in return they cover all the basic unexpected expenses, and what else they do with our taxes is immaterial: Foreign aid, "cautious" investment, etc.

So essentially, you are proposing a new tax and socialized insurance on health, property and life. Nobody is going to tell you that won't work, it does works in Canada and Europe. But there are problems in both; and if we are starting anew, we'd like to avoid some of those problems.

dre7861 said...

Nate this article is why I keep turning to fivethirtyeight - You excel when you take complex mathematical problems and explain them in a way that those of us, and I am including myself here, whose eyes glaze over when we see a bunch of numbers. Thanks!

Chris1974 said...

I haven't read all of the comments so forgive me if this has been mentioned already. One thing to keep in mind is that the governments of the foreign competition, Japan especially, have the backs of their companies. Japan would never let Toyota or Honda fail. The commentators from the right who keep saying "let them fail" while they are driving around in Lexus' and BMW's have to know the respective countries of their cars would do whatever it took to save those companies. Toyota might not even be here today if it wasn't for their government. It is also much more difficult, and expensive, to import a U.S. car into Japan then vice versa. This is because of the respective governments and the fact is the U.S. is really the only country in the world who truly practices "free trade." Further, Japan and Germany have universal health-care. In short, there has never been much incentive to unionize in foreign countries.

A second point I would make is that the U.S. automakers, Ford and GM in particular, are making good cars. The perception is the opposite but they have improved.

stayathomedad said...

"You can't do that with, say, a loaf of bread..."

Speak for yourself. Furry grilled cheese is the only way to go!!!

Foregone Conclusion said...

Fascinating. I'm a bit disappointed that commenters feel the need to take this as proof that unions/management are the root of the problem. The fact is, nobody likes to think 50 years in advance - neither unions or management or government.

Of course, if they had that dirty socialised medicine that imposes such huge burdens on business, they wouldn't be in this mess... to quite the same degree.

footstep said...

This is a great article. You should get it syndicated or linked to by HuffPo and others.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Tony,

There are times when the pragmatic and the ethical come together nicely, and I would say this is one of those times. We need now only to muster the political will. Given present circumstances, I would say that this will be much easier now than it has been in the past- a perfect storm is converging between retiring baby boomers (read: increasingly large chunk of the population with geriatric health problems), an economic recession and the accompanying job loss-and therefore loss of benefits, a politicized youth culture that was born after the Cold War and for whom the rant "that's SOCIALISM!" doesn't mean anything-the ingredients are all there. What we need is for someone to communicate to the above named constituencies in away that brings them together around this issue, someone that can cut across age and class and racial lines-oh wait. We have someone like that.

We have Barack Obama.

I feel better already :)

Arkansas Traveler said...

Tony C.,

Your first comment about unfunded commitments is spot on. That is the entirety of the problem, that corporations weren't required to keep sufficient capital to pay their obligations, and then when the bill comes due, they turn out their pockets like Mr. Moneybags from Monopoly. Yet another regulatory failure, and what will happen is what happened to the US steel industry - they go bankrupt, the PBGC (which is to say the taxpayer) is required to pick up their obligations, and then the now-profitable firm is bought on the cheap, free of the onerous pension/healthcare obligations it once had. Of course, with the PGBC jumping heavily into stocks in mid-2007 ...

Benjamin said...

Excellent piece, Nate.

Alan said...

Scott said...

For the brain-dead, let me translate this article much more accurately and concisely: GM's problem is the union contracts it signed.

GM's problem is that previous management picked short-term profits, ignoring probable long-term losses. (After all, they would be long retired before the bills came due.) I do not doubt that the previous management was well rewarded financially for their short-term gains.

This is a common problem in the business community, and I believe that it goes a long way in explaining America's financial decline.

matador said...

Benjamin said...
Excellent piece, Nate.

March 31, 2009 1:44 PM
**************
agree.

and:

Statler N Waldorf said...
...We have Barack Obama.

I feel better already :)

March 31, 2009 1:21 PM

**************
excellent piece from statler too.

bye
:)

YCT said...

@Boing: To some extent, the government already does that with your tax dollars. Welfare and social security are both forms of unemployment insurance. You pay into them as you work; should you become unemployed, you get some money. I am personally opposed to both, but the fact is that they are there.

The biggest problem I can see with government run insurance (or for that matter, any single-payer system) is that it separates the true cost of services from the person paying them. Imagine that you could have all of the medical care you wanted for free. All you had to do was ask for it and you got it instantly. The next time you have a moderate problem (let's say you break your arm), do you call for a comfy $1500 ambulance ride or do you drive yourself to the hospital? Under a single-payer system, you would obviously do the first.

All of that is fine except for one thing: There is a limited amount of total medical care available. Let's say, for the sake of example, you live in a small town that only has one ambulance. While that ambulance is off taking you to the hospital for your broken arm, someone else might have a heart attack and die because there is no ambulance available to go save them. This is clearly an inefficient allocation of resources. Had you been forced to pay for that ambulance ride, you probably would not have had to take it and the person with the heart attack could have been saved.

When you called for an ambulance, the person COULD have said "no, we only have one ambulance and you can't have it." But that opens up an entirely new can of worms: If the government is paying for all healthcare and there is a limited amount of healthcare available, the government MUST ration healthcare to the people THEY determine need it the most. In addition, there will necessarily be increased demand for the healthcare because it is free.

In summary: More people will want healthcare so costs will go up without people realizing it. The government will then have to ration healthcare to people through longer wait times or the outright denial of care.

If you don't believe this happens in single-payer systems, read these articles:

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukcancersurvivor.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160729/1-000-villagers-wait-dentist-just-NHS-practice-opens.html
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/NHS-under-fire-over-waiting.5013083.jp

RantingCaveman said...

@Chris 1947:
Just to clarify, while Germany, thankfully, has universal health insurance,it is nonetheless heavily unionized. Unions there are more focused on hours, pay, and avoiding layoffs.

Joe said...

Yes, the point of the graph is clear without the dates, but why leave out information?

There's something fundamentally *wrong* about a temporal graph without a decent delineation of time.

Would putting the year information in the graph have detracted from your point? No.
Would it have provided useful and interesting information? Yes.

That said, interesting work as always.

Jeff said...

Tony C is now exercised about unfunded committments? Is this the same Tony C who two days ago opined - apparently seriously - that we could afford a deficit of 25 trillion (2x our own GDP, and many times the GDP of our major creditor, China)? His defense of that proposition was so inane I couldn't bring myself to respond. Now he's the model of fiscal recititude, for everyone except the President - who is permitted to borrow us into bankruptcy. The whole damned government is a bundle of "unfunded liabilities" (SS, medicaid, pension insurance, bank deposit insurance, the bailouts - you name it). This doesn't seem to trouble the president as he triples the deficit.

Behold the political economy of the Obama coalition.

Mike B said...

The real "problem" has been the massive advancements in public health in the last 50 years.

In 1950's Pensions and retiree health care were a winning combo because it was a fools bargain with the workers being the fool. Back in those days most workers stood a good chance of being killed by their job. In the days before OSHA after 30 years at a company if the asbestos and lead pain didn't kill you the the random carcinogenic chemicals would.

Of those that survived their job the %50 smoking rate and artery clogging foods would quickly whittle the numbers down to a mere handful. The lubrication of the old Pyramid Pension System was the near complete lack of available health care. Since defibrillators and CPR hadn't been invented yet if you dropped from a heart attack you died. Got cancer? The solution was to try to cut it out and then morphine and a hospice.

This is the facts that social security was built around when the retirement age was set to slightly below the average life expectancy. The generous benefits were a lottery designed to fall tho those lucky few tho lived long enough to receive them. In fact most workers knew full well they would never see their benefits, but instead used it as a way to provide for their spouses.

When medical care became effective and the government made corporations stop killing their workers was the moment that these systems became unsustainable in their current forms. Unfortunately by that time the systems were A) entrenched for new hires and B) the existing workforce who were counted on to die were now looking at decades more life hooked up with round the clock medical care.

To say that GM was short sighted is missing the facts of life in the 1950's. To be able to predict the rise in life expectancy, growth of health care costs would have required GM executives to have been some sort of futurists. By the time they realized something was wrong GM was holding a wolf by the ears, it didn't want to be in that position, but it couldn't let go.

Travis said...

YCT - I am always amazed at how situations with obvious solutions always seem to be brought up as the massive hurdles against a one-payer health care system. Your example of the ambulance for a broken arm is a perfect example. In Ontario, to take an example I know very well, ambulances are only covered by the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP) if it qualifies as an emergency. If it doesn't meet their criteria, you get a bill. As with anything, there is always some debate about what services and procedures are and are not covered by OHIP, but these are public policy decisions that governments make all the time. As are all such decisions - even your articles refer to these issues in the context of political decision making. Which is actually a good point to a decent one-payer system - the coverage decisions at a macro level are matters of public policy. If people want decreases in wait times, or new services, there is a clear and obvious cost in tax increases. I would also note that all of your articles relate to the UK, which is a blended system, rather than a pure one-payer system, and yet the free market option doesn't appear to resolve the problems either. Although I'd want to see proof of your theory that free health care increases consumption, I'm certainly prepared to accept that (and pay for it through my taxes) as superior to anyone having to do without medical services because they cannot afford coverage.

I hope you are at least in the UK - I am always amazed at how so many people who live in a private health care regime tell the rest of us how our health care system doesn't work. Despite our longer lifespans, of course.

loner said...

Just as context, from someone who was there in 1950 who some of you may have heard of...

THE OWNERSHIP SOCIETY

…I suggested that maybe we could find an employe need that was commensurate to the available profits, considering that profits altogether rarely run to more than one-tenth or one-twelfth of the wage bill. But I didn’t know what the benefit could be.

A few months later [Charles E.]Wilson asked me to meet him in New York. “I’ve thought about your suggestion that profit-sharing has to be applied where it can make an impact. What about employe pensions? There 4 or 5 percent can make a difference, and social security isn’t going to provide adequate employe pensions for people whose lifetime wages have been as high as those of automobile workers are likely to be.” “How will you invest those funds?” I asked. “In government bonds?” “Oh no, he said, “in the stock market. Altogether they should be invested the way a prudent financial manager would invest them.” “But that would make the employes, within twenty-five years, the owners of American business,” I came back. “Exactly what they should be,” said Wilson, “and what they must be. For the income distribution in this country surely means that no one else can own American industry unless it be the government.”

Wilson waited until employe pensions became a union demand. But when they did, in 1950, he was ready. There had been, of course, employe pension plans that invested in common shares: the one at Sears Roebuck, started in 1916, owned, by 1950, one-third or more of Sears Roebuck common stock. But Wilson’s pension fund at GM was the first that invested according to sound principles of financial management, and that meant in the shares of any promising company except those of the company that employs the future pensioner, i.e., the company in which he has a big financial stake through his job.

I was not convinced, and said so. When Wilson put through his pension plan in 1950, I published an article in Harper’s Magazine in which I sharply criticized the “Mirage of Pensions,” as I called it. I pointed out that company pensions would restrain individual mobility, and that vesting them, i.e., giving employes a vested right to their pensions, would make the pension charges unbearably high. I pointed out that such a plan would give the employes of rich and successful companies an unfair advantage over the people employed in small, poor, and unsuccessful businesses. And I argued—I thought cogently—in favor of a universal government pension plan based on progressive taxation. All of my arguments, I submit, have been proven right…but irrelevant. Wilson’s scheme prevailed. By now the United States had 500,000 private pension plans. They have all the problems I anticipated. But they also control the American economy, own one-third of the equity capital of America’s big and medium-sized businesses, and will in the not-so-distant future make employe control a reality by giving employes or their representatives a major voice on the pension fund board. The pension funds may well go bankrupt, as I predicted in the Harper’s article of 1950; but they already have made America’s employes into America’s capitalist. And that, I suspect, rather than employe pensions, was what Charlie Wilson—patternmakers’ business agent, Eugene Debs Socialist, president of GM, and arch-capitalist—had in mind all along.

—Peter F. Drucker, Adventures of a Bystander, 1978

Remember the Ownership society?

Five year plans and new deals...

Tony C. said...

@Jeff:

I don't like unfunded governmental commitments either. Borrowing money is not an unfunded commitment, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. The government does have a pretty reliable income and the ability to pay interest on its debt.

Nevertheless, there is a distinct difference between a corporation entering into a multi-decade long term contract with no plan for meeting its massive obligations, and a government borrowing to ward off an existential threat.

As always, you try to mislead others with false equivalencies.

Saint Dude said...

I echo Tony C's observation that the problem boils down to unfunded liabilities. Numerous corporations along with federal and state governments have taken on long term liabilities without setting money aside to pay for them.

This would be analogous to an individual signing up for an interest only balloon mortgage, on a rather expensive but potentially affordable house, and then failing to save for the day when the mortgage comes due.

Corporations and governments do this for several reasons. 1) They want to maximize growth in the here and now to make stock holders/constituents happy. 2) They believe (mistakenly) that they can continually grow at a rate that exceeds the growth rate of their liabilities. 3) They understand that if the deficits caused by these liabilities ever become too much to bear, they will simply renege on part or all.

I view most of these types of unfunded liabilities as a form of ponzi scheme. Those that are the first to participate profit nicely. However, the returns decrease for successive generations until the point that there are no longer any returns to be had - just liabilities.

Chris1974 said...

Thanks for the clarification Ranting Caveman. Although I confused things by throwing in Euro car-makers much of my comments were directed towards Japanese automakers. And I was really trying to say that here in the U.S., commentators on the right and Republicans keep saying over and over again, to just let the market sort this stuff out. Like much of Friedman economics, that is academic free-market economics. But we don't live in an academic world. In the real world, our main competitors, the Euro Union, Japan, and even China, are advocating forcefully for their own companies. If the U.S. is playing on one playing field, and everyone else on the other, how is that going to benefit us in this global environment? I'd like some of the conservative commentators on this site to answer that question. And I'm not trying to make an argument about the pros and cons of free-trade vs socialism. The point is, in reality there isn't a level playing field right now globally and there has to be a better answer than to just let these companies fail.

downtownhotel said...

"I'll take Auto Industry Blues for $800, Alex."

"Two things that last Two times Too long."

"What are UAW retirees and used cars."

"Correct, pick again."

Nicole said...

Great post, Nate, and a lot of thoughtful comments. Bob Sutton, champion of evidence-based management and author of The No Asshole Rule, has had a lot of smart things to say on how GM's corporate culture has contributed to the state they're in. Surely someone saw all this coming, but the culture actively discourages people from deviating from the status quo. Here's a recent post, that links to some of his earlier ones: http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/11/the-auto-industry-bailout-thoughts-about-why-gm-executives-are-clueless-and-their-no-we-cant-mindset.html

Tony C. said...

@Saint Dude:

Actually, unfunded governmental "commitments" can be more insidious, if the commitments are laws without the funds necessary to enforce them uniformly.

Such laws are unevenly enforced and the people deciding whether to enforce them, often police or assistant D.A.s or judges, or just bureaucrats, can do so at whim. This leads to discrimination of all types, racial, gender, age, income, religion, culture, and so on.

Long term commitments by corporations should be in terms of future income, if it exists, or in vested shares that can be sold.

Laws should not be passed without specific taxes that will support them. Want a tax cut? Choose the law you think we can do without; and get people to vote for repealing it. Otherwise, tough luck. The majority wants each law and therefore wants to be taxed to implement it; presumably people will think before demanding a new law.

Boing said...

What you describe is just a form of socialism (not that there is anything wrong with that). The "premiums" are simply taxes demanded by the government, in return they cover all the basic unexpected expenses, and what else they do with our taxes is immaterial: Foreign aid, "cautious" investment, etc.

So essentially, you are proposing a new tax and socialized insurance on health, property and life. Nobody is going to tell you that won't work, it does works in Canada and Europe. But there are problems in both; and if we are starting anew, we'd like to avoid some of those problems.

@Tony -

Increased government interventionism doesn't necessarily mean Socialism. Certainly, the government having a monopoly on basic insurance underwriting is a more socialist policy than the current situation, but it would no more turn the rest of the economy into a socialist one than a tax rise on the rich would.

What I'm talking about is different from the simple welfare state. The 'insurance taxes' would be tightly ring-fenced, so they could not be spent on anything except insurance (and, possibly, foreign disaster aid). The system would ideally be independent from the rest of government and run essentially as a big insurance agency, with the same scrutiny of claims and variable pricing of premiums according to customer preference and statistical risk. The only difference between it and a huge private insurer is that it would pay somewhat lower salaries and its investments would be highly regulated.

Selling insurance - unlike, say, selling cars - seems to me to be a sensible area for an interventionist policy, because it's intimately bound up with the social contract. Like policing and fire-fighting, it is - or should be - an area in which the cost of alleviating the inevitable disasters of life are drawn from the common wealth.

YCT - I don't see why the rules can't be tightly circumscribed, as they are by private insurance companies. Yes, there'd be political pressures, but if the Ministry of Insurance had operational independence in all areas except investment of surpluses, it should be possible for it to remain reasonably resilient against them.

markymark said...

Its fascinating that the old Detroit car industry is struggling. I think that its possible that the US car industry could go the same way as the UK car indutry for similar reasons- an over unionized workforce, and a management stuck in the past.

Unless of course everyone gets together and realises that big changes are needed. Maybe its time to look at what Japanese car companies are doing so well, and try to get ahead of them. (I mean on all sides of the equation by the way- what labor practices do they use, what pricing structures, product development, management structures, ownership structures etc etc etc etc, real root and branch reform)

Adam said...

Tony C makes a good point above.

I've also got a question. How do the legacy expenses of GM compare to other US automakers? How do they compare to, say, Japanese automakers' US operations, when corrected for GM's longer period of operation and larger retiree base?

That is, were GM's benefits significantly outside of the norm, or are there other factors to consider?

Eric said...

PeterKent said "One thing we know for sure: A President who has never worked a real job, for a real company that must make profits in order to survive really has no cred to be telling American business what to do. Obama ought to stand back and let the market work this out. His meddling is only delaying the inevitable and making things worse."

I'll make you a deal: Keep American business out of the taxpayer's pocket, and I'll also argue to keep the taxpayer out of American business decision making.

Vijay said...

What Nicole says is absolutely true.

GM's failings ought not be laid at the UAW's feet. Ford is not nearly in the same place as GM, and it operated in the exact same UAW environment. Clearly, the problem is mismanagement of the culture at GM.

A couple things are useful representatives of GM's failings:

1) Unwillingness to adapt business processes. The "one car per platform" philosophy (with minor cosmetic changes for different marques) is highly inefficient and VERY expensive.

2) The "unfunded mandate" problem, where different entrepreneurial initiatives are supported, then abandoned as quickly leaving shoddy product behind. The Saturn and EV-1 experiments serve as useful examples.

3) Lack of long-term strategic thinking. This is connected to the first two. By going "all in" for large high-margin products, GM went into the fuel-efficient game too late. In 2010, GM will be selling cars like the Volt at a loss, instead of selling the EV-3 at a small profit.

4) Dependence on fleet sales (rental cars, governments, etc). GM's business model the past 15 years depended on fleet sales... Which leads to:

5) Quality/cost-benefit. It is clear from the build quality that GM put little care into the quality of their mainline consumer products. Sure, the Hummer was tricked-out, but the Impala doesn't hold a candle to the Camry in build quality, longevity, or price.

With these concerns, is it any wonder that GM had the downward trend? And these concerns about business process are reflective of the top leadership at companies, and their commitment to the supremacy of knowledge over station.

mbodell said...

Other posters have hit on the crux of the issue, but that is really that short term incentives really don't encourage long term good practices. And that some things, like pensions and health insurance, really ought to be provided by the government (and are in nearly all other 1st world countries).

On the first point, Tony C. was exactly right when he points out this is the same unfunded liabilities that effected AIG and the other financial companies in trouble. And it is the same issue in general that comes up in business over and over again. Just last night I was rereading the 2002 Berkshire Hathaway company report where Warren Buffet (not exactly a socialist) was sounding the alarm on derivatives, unfunded liabilities, and the harms of executive compensation tied to quarterly numbers. If I'm the boss in the 1970s and 1980s and I can make my numbers look good by depressing my costs this quarter my making off book future promises to my workers (pension obligations) then of course that is in my financial interest to do so. And that leads to terrible decisions.

On being provided with the gov't, many businesses would see a huge boon with a massive expense lifted from their backs if the gov't was to be the single payer provider of health insurance rather than employer provided. The employee would see a benefit too as then you wouldn't be as worried that losing your job in these troubled times also means you lose your family health insurance. Small businesses wouldn't be at a competitive disadvantage with larger ones in health insurance benefits. And to top it all off, as some above have pointed out, single payer health care is cheaper for the exact same quality of care. Medicare is far more efficient in its medicine delivery. There is far less billing paperwork. You don't have 33% or more of the money spent on health care getting wasted on marketing and profits for insurance companies. That is a huge win.

That said, even without any legacy concerns GM may still be in trouble. But GM certainly is dead with legacy concerns if it can't get someone else to take them or else break its promises to workers (something that AIG can't do with its multimillion dollar bonuses to the people who made decisions that at first massively profited from but then caused the economic criss but yet republicans want GM to do to the $40K/year pension some blue collar workers have earned the pension through 30 years hard work).

Pragmatus said...

The problem is not GM, nor the unions, nor the contracts GM signed—the problem is the Byzantine, antediluvian, Rube Goldberg system we have in this country for delivering health care via insurance.

Scrap the contractual agreements GM has made regarding health coverage, enroll the entire workforce, past and present, in Medicare, then make some fundamental changes in the management structure at GM (i.e. get rid of half of it, so good ideas don’t get bogged down in the sludge of bureaucracy) and then turn the company loose on the world again.

Get private insurers out of the healthcare business and the economy will right itself!!!!!

Samuel said...

And you see something similar with the air lines: when times are good, businesses promise more than they'll be able to deliver in the future, and take out profits so when the business cycle turns south again, they can (through one or another means) reneg.

At this point, the auto industry has renegged (mostly with union permission) on promises that are worth more than the companies themselves. I think that the solution is pretty obvious - give GM and Chrylser to the employees and let them figure it out. The employees have all the right incentives in place to keep the industry sustainable - if not profitable, which may not be possible.

But if that sounds like some kind of radical marxist proposal, that's because the bearded guy is laughing at us from the grave. The *underlying* reason for that declining operating margin - which would be declining even if the benefits packages were factored out - is that cars are being sold, more and more, on a real, ideal market, with low cost of entry and many participants and informed consumers etc. etc.

Real, ideal markets behave more or less like Marx described them - they collapse and everyone is squeezed out. This happens constantly in waves with consumer electronics, but since everyone *knows* that an actual factory making actual RAM cannot remain profitable, the businesses (apple, dell, etc.) insulate themselves from the industrial layer and develop their brandname, distribution network, etc. etc. while cycling through parts and suppliers.

Pragmatus said...

mbodell...

Great analysis.

nova_middle_man said...

@ Boing

Here is why it won't work. What you are basically suggesting is medicare and social security and a bunch of other things for everyone.

Two main reasons why it won't work

Demographics. Everyone knows about the baby boomers. Right now they are at peak spending and peak wage earning. As they begin to retire they will become a net drain on society with lower taxes coming in and higher expenses going out.

The other issue is immigration. A huge influx of low skilled workers that disproportinattly take more than they put in. This is a huge problem in Europe as well. The European response has been very limited immigration policies.

I will note these issues are here regardless. The entire pie is shrinking and the number of people to feed is growing. That why the deficits are so large in the outyears. Entitlement spending is going to grow larger and larger while the available tax base will shrink.

The only alternatives are higher taxes or massive spending cuts. We know how popular both of those are (not)

PeteKent said...

Eric,

I am not fan of these proliferating bailouts. They are misguided and only prop up and support companies that should be forced to change on their own or fail.

I think the whole "too big to fail" and "systemic risk" memes are just cover for lazy, craven businessmen who will not face hard choices and are fodder for a government eager to get into our shorts and take over our lives.

We are embarking on a very dangerous path of corporate statism which will only increase the power of lobbyists and moneyed interests and further shut the people out from decision-making.

What makes this particularly virulent is that the balance of power is shifting to the government and this will only lead to entrenchment of the established order and a form of subjugation for the rest of us.

I, for one, am humble enough to believe in human frailty and the inability of even the best and the brightest to solve complex problems such as "fixing the financial system". The system if left to itself will fix itself, but government intervention is sure to weaken and debase it as the people's freedom is subverted to the politician's veniality.

Obama is, of course, the least credible person on these matters as I suspect that until recently he at best showed a passing interest in business and economic matters (have you ever read his college transcripts or examined his resume?). He really doesn't understand the complexities of the business world and things like auto production and executive pay are really not issues that government can deal with intelligently, least of all by a former community organizer .

Let the market work. It is what got us as a species out of the Stone Age. Our greatest progress has been made under the umbrella of capitalism and human freedom. Why turn back to this latter day feudalism?

(You can now follow me on Twitter: PeteKent01)

Cas said...

If the problem is legacy health care and retirement costs, the solution is obvious.

National single-payer health care combined with an increase in Social Security benefits can provide these benefits not only to GM's workers but to all Americans, and enable GM to remain profitable.

GM's management is largely responsible because it has opposed single-payer health care for decades. In fact, granting unsustainable health benefits was a strategy to discourage the UAW from fighting for national health care. Now they're paying the price for their earlier intransigence.

Single-payer is basically free compared to the current costs of health care. The new taxes to pay for it would be less than premiums plus Medicare costs that we already pay.

As for increasing Social Security retirement benefits, the program currently has a huge year-to-year surplus that could be translated directly to benefits without raising taxes at all; it would just mean that the trust fund wouldn't get any bigger and the rest of the budget would have to be paid for using general funds and not borrowing against the SS surplus. Over time to avoid future benefit cuts or debt, the payroll withholding could be raised slightly (about 2% of total income) with people given more benefits in the short run that taper off so that even with pessimistic assumptions the program never goes into debt.

We do this and we do three great things: 1) real national health care, 2) better SS benefits with only marginal effects on taxes, 3) a surviving and leaner GM that is better positioned to take on the challenges of a post-carbon economy.

Stefan said...

The graph does help show that this problem is definitely an issue, not just for car companies, but also for most of the manufacturing industry left in the U.S.

Part of the reason why the U.S. car industries havn't been able to compete with other, international cars, is mostly due to health care. International companies do not have to pay billions of dollars into the health care of their workers, as it's taking care of by the government. Thus, allowing health care to be taken over by the government would actually alleviate this burden and help our companies compete...that is, make cars that people would want to buy.

Though, this is not the only problem...GM also put most of it's money into SUV's and trucks...which with the gas prices has ultimately also helped to lead to its downfall.

Tony C. said...

Actually, what got us out of the Stone Age was not any kind of free market. Monarchies ruled at the dawn of farming; which occurred in the Nile valley and gave rise to Egyptians and the Roman Empire.

We left the stone age for an age of rule by kings, who in turn ruled by force of arms. They enslaved the populace into serfdom, in Europe and Asia and the Middle East. They were believed to be anointed by gods, or to be actual gods.

There were millenia between leaving the stone age and free markets.

Andrew Walkingshaw said...

Juris: on the subject of SUV sales, I wrote about this yesterday, using data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics to tease apart the differences between the product mixes of the US and Japanese manufacturers.

It all started going horribly wrong in the mid-90s; that's when the real inflection point in the automobile / commercial-vehicle-including-SUV sales curves kicked in. The Japanese manufacturers didn't expose themselves nearly as heavily to the market sector.

It's interesting data, anyway!

Jeff said...

Tony C:
I mislead with "false equivalencies"? You are the one who compared a yearly deficit on the order of 2x the country's entire GDP to a family's mortgage. The ways that is a false analogy cannot be numbered.

There is NOTHING false or misleading about my complaints about Obama's deficits. This is basic! You keep talking about "existential emergencies" Tony, and I would agree that the present circumstances require a huge deficit this year, and probably next. (Just as 9/11 similarly required deficit spending - an inconvenient "emergency" you like to forget). But Obama's spending is long term; the deficits extend as far as he cares to project. And they will top one trillion as a STRUCTURAL deficit a few years into his second term (should he get one).

It is beyond me why Nate doesn't put his statistics to work educating the readers of this blog as to the effects of these over the long term. I presume, if he agreed with you that the GOP was "insane" for agitating against this level of spending, he would show us the numbers to support that position. As it is, I can only presume that he cannot spin the stats favorably for the President, and thus will concern himself with lesser matters.

MEDIAWEST PRODUCTIONS CO said...

bought a saturn sky roadster, great car a lot of fun. the trouble with GM was they make a fine product, but they fixed the books for so long, legacy costs, and promised unions guys too much and too much back end.

gmac didnt help either.....

Alan said...

PeteKent said...

In the capitalist system we use price and competitiveness to ration goods and services and the profit motive has served us exceedingly well in satisfying human want.

So the rich get whatever medical care they want, regardless of whether it is necessary, while the poor in America die from things that could often be prevented at a fairly cheap cost.

I remember a young boy who died because of a toothache when the infection reached his brain. How can we consider ourselves a compassionate nation when things like this happen?

Money is not a good way to ration health care, Pete.

Tony C. said...

@Jeff:

It is beyond me why Nate doesn't [whatever...]

Let me suggest a few items that might dispel your confusion:

a) Perhaps Nate, through his mastery of basic arithmetic, has concluded this is a minor blip of no concern to people;

b) Perhaps Nate, through his basic understanding of what people find interesting, has concluded that such an analysis will produce nothing of value,

c) Perhaps Nate, by virtue of being able to read, has concluded you are an idiot with no analytical ability whatsoever.

As have I.

PeteKent said...

Tony C,

You repeated show your ignorance and really need to STFU.

My reference to the Stone Age was a metaphor of sorts, but consider the first time two cro mnagnons traded soemthing the free market was born. The Age of Kings was eventually supplanted by enlightened democracy that was made possible by greater relaiance on markets and not command and control.

Why are you such an opponent of capitalism? Have you got a better way?

PeteKent said...

Alan,

Please you are a dope.

"while the poor in America die from things that could often be prevented at a fairly cheap cost."

The poor in America are dying b/c Medicaid is a broken system -- socialized healthcare is not working! So let's try a bigger dose of it. We can all die of toothaches -- now that's fairness.

We must try a better way: consumer-driven healthcare.

Tony C. said...

You repeated show ...
the first time two cro mnagnons traded soemthing ...


You show yourself to be an illiterate, grammarless, clumsy, ignorant blustering clown every time you post.

You have my pity. Not that it will penetrate your anger or self-hatred, but I cannot help but feel pity for the blind.

IslandLiberal said...

The poor in America are dying b/c Medicaid is a broken system -- socialized healthcare is not working! So let's try a bigger dose of it. We can all die of toothaches -- now that's fairness.

Yeah, because that's certainly how it works in places that have universal healthcare. Here in Canada, people are dying left and right and...oh wait, no, that's not what's happening.

Pragmatus said...

PeteKent...

The healthcare system we have now is one dictated by the market (i.e. consumer driven), so if you think everything is hunky-dory then there's no use trying to reason with you.

My favorite name of the day is Andrew Walkingshaw, who posted here earlier. Beautiful! Like a nobleman out of Dickens.

Steven said...

@Pragmatus:

I don't believe that the current system is a market system. A critical element of a market system--choice--is almost entirely absent, b/c so much of health care insurance is tied to employment.

A true "market system" would encourage competition among companies, rather than (essentially) forcing people into employment programs. Whether or not this is ideal is a separate debate, and a worthy one.

jeanine said...

I don't doubt that health care costs, which keep building up, are a significant burden for GM. However, there also are the related issues of product quality and product appeal along with manufacturing efficiency. The American consumer has not consistently craved fuel efficient cars, so the fact that GM and the others focused on fins and other things wasn't always a bad decision at least in the short term. But they are playing catchup with respect to fuel efficiency. Also, repair rates and general reputation for quality is a big thing. Lastly, it appears that the foreign car makers are better at ... making cars.

Saint Dude said...

Jeff,

As far as I can tell, the long term deficits facing this country have very little to do with either Obama's current spending, or with his spending proposals.

The bulk of the deficits are caused by 1) Slow growth projections. and 2) Our national unfunded liabilities coming due.

One can rationally argue that spending/investment should be dramatically increased in the near term so as to mitigate the above causes underlying future deficits.

Take the example of Alzheimer's disease. A recent study concluded that Alzheimer's is going to cost the U.S. economy somewhere on the order of $18 trillion over the next 20 years. The study also concluded that if we could delay the onset of the disease by 5 years, it would result in a cost savings of nearly $8 trillion. Clearly, if there is a cure to be found, or if there is any potential in delaying the condition, it is worth spending $billions in the near term on Alzheimer's research in order to save $trillions over the coming decades.

sniperct said...

What's the AU system like for health care? They pay something like 1.5% of their pay in taxes to fund it. (vs the 19% or so I'm paying right now)

It can't be any worse then the cruddy service and 'we're not covering that' I'm getting now.

Don said...

After GM succeeds in transferring all of it's manufacturing overseas and tries to sell you their foreign-made cars remember to NOT buy them.

YCT said...

Those of you who are advocating single payer healthcare to cover GM's legacy costs are forgetting one crucial component: Healthcare is expensive and someone has to pay for it.

If Congress and Obama were to pass a bill tomorrow that would instantly create a single payer/universal/whatever system, it would cost $hundreds of billions per year. Thus, we would either have to run an even higher deficit or increase taxes to pay for it.

So it would work out like this: Taxes are increased to pay for universal healthcare. Universal healthcare relieves GM of their obligations to their retirees and employees. Therefore, the taxpayers are indirectly keeping GM alive and rewarding them for incredibly short-sighted business decisions in the past.

I know I'm not alone in saying that I don't want another dime of my tax money going to GM, ever, in any form. They've made their bed; now they can lie in it.

Andrew Walkingshaw said...

@Pragmatus: Thanks! (I think.)

It was the name I was born with, though, so I can't really claim any virtue by it. Still, the only downside is the life of misspellings it's doomed me to.

I'd like to think I'm a little more modern than Dickens, anyway! I'll take the nobility if it's on offer, though, and I am from the eastern side of the Pond.

Anyway, the name's Scottish (as am I) - originating in Renfrewshire, apparently: http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Walkingshaw.

(Apologies for the digression!)

Jeff said...

Saint Dude,
Obama's deficit projects - which are astronomical - have nothing to do with social security and medicare, which are still "off books". Nor do his projected deficits have anything to do with slow growth - as Obama has "projected" almost absurdly robust growth. (I.E., the economy is supposed to grow THIS YEAR, and at some point return to wildly impossible 5-6% growth). The factors you point to will indeed make our REAL situation worse, but they have nothing to do with the already horrendous budgets that Obama is offering us.

Secondly, medical breakthroughs do NOT generally save money. They generally cost a great deal of money. Delaying Alzheimer's might be an exception, but most "cures" cost a ton. Early death is the cheapest health care policy, alas.

Jeff said...

Tony C,
There are a lot of smart libs on this blog, but you are not one of them. I have rarely encountered such a marriage of incompetence and arrogance. I'm still chuckling over your feckless effort to prove out ability to borrow 25 trillion in a single year, based on you analysis of your mom's mortgage payments. And Nate Silver isn't crunching budget numbers because he doesn't dare.

Tony C. said...

@Jeff:

And like a high school class clown, all you can do is smirk and point but when it comes right down to it, you cannot point out an arithmetic error I have made or present a logical argument against it. So keep up your self-righteous pretension, you poor deluded fool. The entire lot of smart libs on this site see right through you. We all know a poseur when we see one; they have no ideas and no analytic ability, all they ever have is the same worthless assertions they repeat in endless variety, mixed with adolescent insult. You aren't fooling anybody, you aren't convincing anybody, and you aren't entertaining anybody except yourself.

Mike in Maryland said...

YCT said...
If Congress and Obama were to pass a bill tomorrow that would instantly create a single payer/universal/whatever system, it would cost $hundreds of billions per year. Thus, we would either have to run an even higher deficit or increase taxes to pay for it.

YCT,

You forget that if there is a universal system covered by taxes, then the employees and employers wouldn't have to pay for the system through the insurance companies.

Let's say that the universal system does not save a penny. If that's the case, the consumer (employee and employer) don't see any increase because what they pay in additional taxes in reduced by decreases in insurance payments.

However, if the universal system saves 10%, the consumer (employee and employer) see a 10% decrease in what they pay in health payments, even if they are paying higher taxes.

How can a universal system save 10%? One reason is that people would go to a doctor when they feel ill, not to the emergency room, where the costs are much higher than in a doctor's office. With fewer people going to the emergency room for non-emergencies, that means that emergency rooms (which have a natural higher cost than a non-emergency room) can be used AS emergency rooms, but at a lower level of staffing, with better care given to the actual emergencies that arrive.

One area of emergency room visits is heart attacks. If people know that their health care will be covered, they will go to the doctor to get their high blood pressure and/or high level of LDL cholesterol diagnosed and treated. At a cost of, say $500 per year for medicine for 10 years ($5,000), that could easily be much cheaper than one visit to the emergency room and hospital stay of 5 days (figure more than $1,000 for the emergency room, plus $1,000 per day of hospitalization), plus the loss of work (thus pay) for the employee and the loss of worker (thus hiring of more workers/temps) for the employer.

Oh, and if the medicines aren't taken and the patient ends up in the emergency room with heart problems, operations such as coronary bypass surgery become more and more likely, with subsequent costs in the tens of thousands of dollars for the operation, hospital stay, loss of work for the employee and the employer while the employee is recuperating.

Multiply it by hundreds of thousands, or millions, of emergency room visits per year, and the savings could be in the BILLIONS of dollars per year, just for avoided heart problems.

Mike in Maryland said...

harold said...
Medical science took GM to the cleaners. Their employees are living longer than GM expected in the fifties, and there's more that doctors can do when those retirees get ill.

How true, Harold.

According to infoplease.com, the average person in the US in 1950 was expected to live to 68.2 years of age (males to 65.6 and females to 71.1). Since the GM work force was majority male, the 65.6 figure is more appropriate. Also consider that GM (as with all automakers) had a higher average number of AAs in the workforce than the US at large. Infoplease gives no average expected life expectancy for AA males in 1950, but from 1970 to 2005, that life expectancy is 5 to 9 years less than white males.

Contrast the 1950 figure with the 2005 figure of all males expected to live 75.2 years, white males expected to live 75.7 years, and AA males expected to live 69.5 years.

Summary:
1950:
All males: 65.6
White males: 66.5

1960:
All males: 66.6
White males: 67.4

1970:
All males: 67.1
White males: 68.0
AA males: 60.0

1980:
All males: 70.0
White males: 70.7
AA males: 63.8

1990:
All males: 71.8
White males: 72.7
AA males: 64.5

2000:
All males: 74.3
White males: 74.9
AA males: 68.3

2005:
All males: 75.2
White males: 75.7
AA males: 69.5

From 1950 to 2005, an average life expectancy increase in all males of about 10 years.

Add in the workers generally worked from their late teens or early 20s until their mid-50s to 65 in the 1950s, and only retiring at less than 65 for mainly health reasons. That left about an average of 5-10 years (at most) for health benefits that needed to be covered.

With the retirement age being reduced to an employee's late 40s to early 50s with the 30 year retirement guarantee, and the longer life expectancy, now the companies need to cover somewhere above 20 years, on average, of health coverage, or at least 2 to 4 times the time from the 1950s, and with that health care being much more expensive (in constant dollars) than what it was in the 1950s.

Life expectancy info from:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html

Alan said...

YTC said...

Those of you who are advocating single payer healthcare to cover GM's legacy costs are forgetting one crucial component: Healthcare is expensive and someone has to pay for it.

Those of you who hate the idea of single payer healthcare for everybody are forgetting that you (and I) are already paying more with the current system than we would under single payer.

Insurance companies not only have to make a profit, but they have to advertise, have a huge bureaucracy to deny benefits, and employ large numbers of lawyers to defend them against suits by those to whom they deny coverage.

I've read that insurance companies have overhead ranging up to 30%, while government programs such as medicare and VA health care have about 1.5% overhead.

With a single payer system, we could either pay less or have better coverage.

Andrew A. Gill said...

Nate--

I'm curious what your data source for this is. I haven't found any sources for this information prior to 1994.

Jim B said...

A Canadian perspective...The CAW and UAW contracts are not that hugely different, and Canada has universal health care and a lower dollar, so why is it almost as uneconomic to build a car in Canada as the US? The fault is in the contracts themselves. If X, a GM employee in Canada, makes $100K a year on the line with overtime etc--and yes, they do, some of them--, how much does he pay towards the generous pension/medical plan? $0! Now, if I made $50k a year at my job--obviously not represented by the CAW/UAW, then I co-pay about $2.5K a year for the work pension alone, and say $65 month during retirement to have a top-up plan for (partial payment of) prescriptions and (some) other medical expenses not covered by the national universal hospitalization plan. Plus, my work pension after 35 years or so, would max out at 70% of basic pay, not 75-90%. One important fact is that in Canada, any contributions that you make to a supplementary (work) pension plan are tax deductible, so if the GM worker had co-contributed $5K a year, then he would be taxed on $95K, not $100K (or $10K as sole contributor, then $90k). This problem could have been addressed before by fiat, by regulators insisting that the chronic underfunding of pension liabilities be addressed immediately, both by employers AND the eventual recipients. It is not too late to insist that current and pensioned employees pay for their benefits out of their existing paypackets, as it would both be equitable, and reasonable. We are not talking about pensioners who scrape by below the poverty level here, but solidly middle class second or third income tax tax bracketers. As well, there are national pensions here, that everyone contributes to via both taxes and contributions on pay, so that generally everyone will have a minimum of about $1K/month. So, if you are getting a work pension from GM of $5K month-plus $1K universal-would it be that sole crushing to only receive $4 or $4.5K net from GM, plus $1K? Perhaps bankruptcy restructuring is the only way to get some necessary changes made.

Pip said...

As an advocate of Nationalized Health Care, it seems very easy for me to say that Nationalizing our health care would save GM. After-all they are competing against Car companies who's home countries have nationalized health care, Japan and Germany mainly.

Not only would GM benefit greatly, Nationalized health care is the most pro-business idea out there. How many businesses would love to have that hassle taken off their hands. How many would love to be able to lay off half their HR staff? Never mind the reality that the tax increase to pay for this would be far smaller than what businesses (and employees) are paying now. And we'd have better health care on top of it all.

Then you look at all the small businesses trying to hire quality people, they no longer lose the argument because they can't offer health care. Heck they themselves can take more risk because their own health care is paid for already.

If either GM or the UAW had two combined brain cells they would be uniting together and pushing like hell for nationalized health care. Sadly they are both near sighter and stupid and both shall suffer and die as a result.

Ze said...

What shouldn't be forgotten here, is that GM was using accounting rules to cook their books for 40 years.

The fact that the pensions and health insurance weren't substantially funded and are now bringing the company down is only true because GM didn't put sufficient money, from the start, into funding those programs.

By cooking their books GM was able to take equity out of the company, making them more attractive to shareholders who got bigger dividends, and by wasting money overpaying for companies they bought, etc.

The Casual Observer said...

FYI - a guest columnist on my blog addresses this topic today. The article was already written when Nate's article was posted - great timing :)

http://somecasualobservations.blogspot.com/2009/04/stop-auto-bailout.html

www.gregor.us said...

An industrial scourge on the society and a huge waste of resources. Solution: convert the now collapsed manufacturing capacity of Detroit into Rail and rolling stock manufacturing.

Jeff said...

Tony C.,
In all sincerity, I can't believe you want to keep this up. You claimed that the US could raise 25 trillion in a single year (which would approach 50% of the entire GDP of the earth). And now you want me to explain yet further why this is absurd. You based it on the comparison of a national budget deficit and a family mortgage. This analogy obviously confuses a yearly budget with an overall debt (which is what a mortgage is). The analogy would be more like a family, already with a mortage and huge credit card debt, trying to blow twice its annual income on pizza and movies. This would be complete suicide, but the more obvious problem is that NO ONE would lend them such a sum. Likewise, NO ONE would lend the USA 25 trillion, even if they could (which they can't). The UK, Germany, and others have already had bond offerings fail. We are looking at the same problem very shortly. Our debt is destined to become much more expensive very shortly. China has made this very clear indeed.

These are not GOP scare tactics. These are economic facts. The USA simply cannot sustain the debt that Obama is planning. Your own personal illiteracy on economics is not going to change that. But knock yourself out trying.

Tony C. said...

@Jeff:

You are lying.

I said that if necessary we could afford a $25T debt, which is analogous to a home mortgage, except as a nation our interest rate would be lower and we could pay the principle at our leisure.

I never said we could afford a $25T budget, which is what you are trying to say. You cannot read. You cannot think. You cannot do arithmetic.

As for GDP, so what? $25T would be double our GDP. If you want to use that as the measure, are you saying it would be impossible to ever address debt amounting to two years worth of income?

Really? Stop being ridiculous; you cannot be serious. Provide a computation that shows this would be even dangerous.

My argument was never that we could borrow $25T, or spend $25T a year, my argument was that we could handle that level of debt, ONCE.

And I stand by my calculations, and until you provide a calculation this conversation is over. You are being emotional, not rational.

Jeff said...

Could I get a show of hands on how many readers of this blog are convinced by Tony's case that we could "easily" afford a 25 trillion dollar debt. (This his revised case - earlier he clearly suggested that we could add 25 trillion dollars to the national debt in an "emergency" - thus making for a single 25 trillion dollar addition to our once and future debt.)

Mike in Maryland said...

Jeff said...
Could I get a show of hands on how many readers of this blog are convinced by Tony's case

No, because you are TROLLing, Jeff.

Tony C. said...

@Jeff:

Set it to $25T, Add $25T to a $10T debt, it makes no difference, we can afford either if needed. Once more for the show of hands: 2% interest on $25T = $0.50T = $500B, divided by 225M taxpayers is $2222 each, about 10% of average annual income, or $186 per month per taxpayer. And that isn't even taxing businesses.

If you do not think America could afford that debt in the face of an existential threat, then I say you should be roomies with Jeff in the loony bin.

Tony C. said...

@Jeff:

And besides, I don't know where you went to school, or if you went to school, but in my world the answers to arithmetic problems is not up for a vote.

Peter said...

Absurdly sweeping generalizations? Check. Insults? Check. It is pretty clear that PeteKent is a TROLL. If he's been posting a while, then he is a persistant TROLL.(Just to let everyone know).

Jeff said...

Tony C,
Since you asked, I received my BA from Middlebury College and my MA and PhD from Harvard.

I don't challenge your math (you get a gold star for multipication). The problem is not with your math. It is with you political and economic assumptions. To assume a national debt of 35 trillion is, under those more serious considerations, insane. It's utterly impossible for glaringly obvious reasons, the chief one of which is this: the credit markets could never bear such an additional demand (particularly when you keep in mind the scramble for credit is a global one, with only a few "suppliers" like China). No one would or could buy such debt, and if they could, they would not do so for 2% (which is your absurd assumption).

European nations are required to have debt levels of no more than 60% of GDP. Many of them are currently violating these rules, with very dire consequences. You believe that the world's largest economy (i.e., with no backstop - hopelessly to large for "help" from the IMF etc) could assume debt of 3-4X GDP. This is impossible. If you knew anything about world economics, you would know that there are ALREADY serious fears that the US will not find sufficient buyers for its bonds.

As for this "existential crisis", I guess this means I shouldn't jump into the stock market, as Obama has instructed me. You are confusing the causes of the crisis (credit bubble) with the cure. You are also mischaracterizing Obama's spending, very little of which is stimulus to aid us out of the crisis, and most of which is long-term. His deficits are not short term fixes, they are structural.

You may disagree with these points, but the fact that you - who are apparently informed and follow politics closely - find them "insane" ravings is a very troubling symptom of the low level of clear, critical thinking on the left.

Jeff said...

Mike in Maryland (and others)

Just a point of clarification, is a Troll anyone who disagrees with Obama? Are other points of view not welcome here?

By the way, I still would like to hear from Nate Silver on this subject of debt.

Tony C. said...

@Jeff:

Oh I see, now it is doctor Jeff. You can't make an actual argument, so instead you try to appeal to some manufactured or imagined authority: Your grammar and spelling and misuse of homophones ("to" instead of "too") do not suggest the level of education you suggest. I have two good friends that graduated from Harvard, and they aren't as dumb as this.

Once again, I never said we could borrow it, I said we could afford it. I have said this from the beginning, and a Harvard PhD would have understood this clear distinction.

Did you know that Harvard has about three times as many high school valedictorians apply every year than they have room for in their freshman class?

I applied to Harvard Graduate school with a 4.0 GPA in both high school and for my bachelor's which I finished in three years instead of four, and I was in the top 5% for my GRA score, and I still didn't make the cut (I got four offers, just not Harvard).

Harvard is for the best and brightest or the filthy rich legacy kids, and your speech and grammar and fumbling misunderstandings are plenty of evidence that you fit neither description.

I guess this means I shouldn't jump into the stock market, as Obama has instructed me.

Damn straight, kiddo. Seriously, this is sales spin. The prudent thing to do, if anybody has cash, is to either preserve it or, if there is enough, invest in a private business that seems recession/depression proof.

Trying to invest now is speculative at best, it is trying to pick a bottom and nobody on the planet has the information necessary to know where that bottom is. The market may be at 8K today, and it may be 10K in December, or it may be at 5K, or 4K. That is not investing, it is raw speculation, and should be left to those that can afford to lose everything they bet.

You have new regulations coming down the road, new taxes, new bailouts, new policies, and a new focus on holding corporations accountable, both by the government and by investors.

There is no prudent public company investment right now; you might as well be playing roulette in Vegas, or more appropriately, shooting craps with shady strangers in an alley, because the sociopaths that run our economy are not going to play as fair as a Vegas casino.

For those that do have money, I suggest investing it in your own future; pay down your debt, maintain your home and cars, and even if your job is not in peril, prepare for the storm. Chances are some of your relatives and friends will get the short end of some stick. Whether this storm gets worse or the worst is over, now is the time for citizens to be cautious and let the government take the big risks.

Collectively we can afford what would individually bankrupt us.

But I agree, Obama is NOT giving good financial advice, at least not for individual citizens with less than about $250K in net worth.

Tony C. said...

@Jeff:

As to whether 2% is realistic; I'd like to point out that stats are available at www.treasurydirect.gov, and for the last year the treasury has sold $7.5T worth of T-Bills at an average return of 1.15%. I know, I know, a lot of that is recycled money, but people are buying 1.15% returns backed by the US Government.

In any case, all this arithmetic is a cul de sac. My argument was never that we should borrow $25T, or the logistics of borrowing $25T, my argument was that the entire brouhaha over the debt is overblown hype; a $1.8T deficit is affordable; a $10T debt is also affordable. Painful, but not nearly as catastrophic or inflationary as conservatives (or even Obama) paint it to be. Going into debt to invest in the future is a normal part of life, both for individuals and for the nation as a whole. We can afford the deficit investing, we can afford the debt it creates, and there is no reason to think we will never be able to pay it back.

The important thing is to get infrastructure and energy independence; any deficit spending targeted at those goals will produce savings and profits that will pay itself back.

The important thing is to NOT engage in deficit spending on tax cuts and other non-investment expenditures.

Jeff said...

Tony C
YOU asked where I went to school, jerk. I'm not "suggesting" my level of education, I'm telling you. And I'm sorry if I don't proofread my posts to your satisfaction. They are chiefly rapped out over a sandwich at my desk. Yours don't exactly read like Tolstoy.

I agree that this debate has exhausted itself - chiefly because you admit that the whole thing was some lame mental exercise. (So we supposedly "could" afford this level of debt, but "can't" because no one will lend it to us. I presume this means that we actually "can't" afford it, as being able to afford something is a question that can only be answered relative to real markets. Hell, Weimar Germany could "afford" a trillion mark debt.) I was interested in the real policy decisions, you are interested in rhetoric (and ad hominem attacks).

Here's an argument for you: THE USA CANNOT AFFORD OBAMA'S BUDGETS WITHOUT VERY DIRE RESULTS. I'm a conservative who works in academics and know a great many smart liberals, but I don't know a single one who doesn't take that argument very seriously. Nor do I know of serious economists, even those inside the administration, who really disagree with this. And the counterclaim that Obama's particular spending plans (which are also policy choices) for infrastructure, energy, and education will "pay us back" is a guess, at best. It would behoove you to be honest about this.

Tony C. said...

@Jeff:

Here's an argument for you: THE USA CANNOT AFFORD OBAMA'S BUDGETS WITHOUT VERY DIRE RESULTS.

That is a declarative statement devoid of content. Honestly, "very dire" results? That is an emotion, you dolt. "Cannot afford?" That is patently wrong, the ability to "afford" something has nothing to do whether we should do it; it is simply a matter of arithmetic, which I have done, which you have not, and apparently you are incapable of doing at all.

Dumbass.

Jeff said...

Let me take a deep breath and try this again. But "cannot afford" without "dire results" I mean this. Soon, we can't find foreign buyers of the debt. We are forced to buy it ourselves. This triggers inflation. This destroys our status as the world's reserve currency. This further pressures interest rates upwards. This increases the costs of all borrowing - which is deadly for the US because we have a low savings rate and a high borrowing rate. What savings and pensions there are, and those on fixed incomes, are royally screwed. Future generations have no room to move.

This isn't a scare tactic. It is already threatening. The Chinese are "shortening" up their holdings of our debt (selling the long term debt in favor of short term debt - not a sign of confidence), and expressing grave doubts about the dollar. Our treasury is the main buyer of our debt - all with freshly printed money ("quantitative easing"). Our debt to GDP ratio as project by Obama would be about 130-140% (higher than any economy except Japan, Zimbabwe, and Lebanon).

This is not emotion. These are the facts. We are headed for serious stagflation. Fiscal responsibility is an absolute must.

Over to you Tony - froth a bit in response.

Tony C. said...

@Jeff:

Soon, we can't find foreign buyers of the debt.

Soon? That is speculation and nothing more.

These are the facts. We are headed for serious stagflation.

We are headed? That is not a fact, that is speculation. All of your post is speculation and nothing more. Krugman is a Nobel-prize winning economist that disagrees with you and thinks Obama's budget is not enough.

Fiscal responsibility is an absolute must.

"Fiscal Responsibility" is just Republican/Conservative/Libertarian code for avoiding deficit spending, nothing else. You have no real argument here, you have an emotion. You have nothing provable, just speculation about scare-tactic consequences that are way over the top when examined by any kind of sensible arithmetic.

Each trillion dollars is $4400 per taxpayer. And you are telling me, that no matter what the interest rate, even at 10%, we will be unable to borrow a few trillion dollars from other countries, even if we backed it with inflation guarantees or promised to repay it in euros. No matter what.

At 10%, each taxpayer would be responsible, on average, for another $440 in annual taxes per trillion borrowed. Now I don't suggest a flat tax per taxpayer by any means; I would make it progressive and protect those earning less than $50K.

How in the name of Zeus can you claim that borrowing a few trillion dollars is going to bankrupt the country? Where, exactly, are these dire results going to come from?

Your entire sequence of speculation multiplies the threat by an order of magnitude at every step until it is thousands of times worse than it would ever actually be, and in the process, you make it completely implausible.

Obama's budget demands a temporary increase in deficit spending of 1.75T. Even if we had to pay a plausible 3% over inflation for that money (and we pay half that right now), the interest on that debt is $233.33 per taxpayer per year. Do that for three years, it rises to $700 per year per taxpayer, and maybe $1000 per year per taxpayer over $60K.

The number of bankruptcies that creates is miniscule; people earning over $60K can scrape together $1000 a year.

You are wrong and won't admit it, I assume because your ideology prevents it. But you live in a fantasy world, not the real world.

In the real world, we have been legally ripped us off for five trillion dollars or so. It is the government's job to dig us out of the hole, and that is what Obama is trying to do. True "fiscal responsibility" is forcing collective action on us, forcing higher taxes on us, and investing in what we should have been paying for all along: Infrastructure, Schools, Energy Independence and a health care system that does not compromise health for profit. That means investing a lot of borrowed money, and then paying it back with higher taxes and more stringent controls.

jonathan said...

You need to work on your understanding of economics. Seriously. With all respect for your abilities with numbers, these charts don't get at much of the story at all.

In the early years of your charts, GM had near monopoly power - a 60% market share - and was more than once responsible for maintaining the existence of Chrysler so GM would not fall under Congressional anti-trust scrutiny. What happens to any market when new competition enters? Operating margins tend to decrease as the new competitors either introduce innovation or lower prices. What happens when those competitors are subsidized? The pressures on margins increase because the competitors are buying market share using their subsidies.

So, the domestic auto market was attacked by several overseas competitors who were subsidized by their governments. The competitors cost of capital in real terms was often negative, so they could afford to price for market share.

GM's real fault is maybe harder to fault. The early attacks were at the low end and GM continued to compete well there for decades. GM was willing to concede market share to protect margins and if not for OPEC forming and the oil shocks of the 1970's they might have succeeded.

GM was clearly unprepared for the upscale move by these overseas competitors. That began not with Acura and then Lexus but with the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry, which were the first cars to take on the heart of domestic production - all subsidized from abroad. When the luxury divisions opened up, that sucked the extra margins right out of the domestic industry.

Subsidies took many forms, from incredibly cheap capital (as noted above, often negative real cost) to maintaining lower standards of living. While GM paid its employees so they could afford a house and car and vacation and school, Japanese industrial workers lived in tiny apartments without central heat, eating a less expensive diet, buying a much narrower variety of goods. If the argument is that GM should have kept its workers in poverty to maintain an edge over potential foreign competition, I would disagree.

We can see the same thing if we move to German cars. Germany committed to a program of exporting high value added materials in a wide array of businesses. That is their national economic program and that is why Germany is the #1 exporter in the world. Many economic areas have been impacted by Germany's decision: from construction equipment to furnaces. The Mercedes cars of today bear little under the metal resemblance to the Mercedes of the 1960's. (If you're a history buff, compare the modern Mercedes to the Tiger tank, a masterpiece of military design but simply then too complicated to be produced in effective numbers. The Germans have always wanted to occupy this niche and over the last 20-30 years technology has allowed them to fill it.)

To return to economics, it is a standard point that monopoly profits attract competition. People want to get into profitable markets. The domestic auto business - and GM's 60% share - was likely the single most profitable market in the world, outside of oil production. The amount of national wealth produced has been extraordinary. The US, since it has relatively low trade barriers, did not protect its domestic market. (By contrast, the Japanese simply would not allow US cars in for decades and other countries had much higher trade barriers.) So you had a ridiculously rich market relatively unprotected from entry which you could initially enter by exporting, meaning you could directly subsidize your production (and could hide that when necessary).

We Not Me said...

How is it that in Europe and Asia, the foreign auto makers have remained solvent, even with 100% Union membership?
The answer is National, Single Payer Healthcare in each of those countries.

hakan said...

ISO 9001 CE GOST QUALITY TSE ELD ECA AYDINISI
ECAyedekparca ECAyetkiliservis

Scott said...

I have been going to the LA Autoshow annually with four auto-nut friends for over 25-30 years so have witnessed the shift interest in from American cars to foreign designed. We and many others used to savage the managers of the big three with questions and implored them to something new or significant. All we got back was Toby Keith videos. They wonder why we didn't buy their crap. My hearts go out to the workers who can build a decent product (my daughter bought an Escort and put 140K very solid miles on it), but are stuck with stodgy management who can't recognize a decent design. Stop designing for the farm belt, they can't sustain you.

Brian Judy said...

The health insurance companies are screwing all of us. Even the big corporations.

solerso said...

quoting: "Security guarantee in lieu of guaranteeing private pension programs. The whole idea of Social Security is that people do an inadequate job of saving when left to their own devices."

Thats not idea, its a qauntifiable fact. savings, are quantifiable. also, consider that wealthy an upper middle class boomers have not saved not , and its not all due to "lifestyle choices" . Real wages have been going down and and prices going up for a long time, and most people arent wealthy, and many are living on survival incomes, or less. And consider that we are human beings, not spreadsheet software. We dont always make the optimum decision based on sets of data. Sometimes the best decsion IS to buy the kids presents at christmas, or to take you parents out to dinner, or buy a set of guitar strings,etc., most of us ( even the virtual andriods among us) find it hard, if not impossible to save money when the money is getting slipery and hard to find;and Social Security has improved the quality of life in this country, probably imeasurably. Also its not operated for a profit, even harder to save when a middle man is skimming

ass said...

By comparing the traditional Internet users, Internet users to iResearch found that the traditional white-collar-based, cell phones wholesale, corporate general staff accounted for 18.9%, higher than the 5.6% of the wholesale cell phones users accounting; and discount cell phones users in the years students and blue-collar workers accounted for significantly more than the traditional Internet users, respectively, accounting for 19.5% and 18.9%, higher than the traditional Internet users Students and blue-collar workers accounted for 7.8% and 5.1% respectively.

ass said...

From cell phones users to see the specific situation of occupational segmentation in 2009, accounting for 19.5% of students dropped 21.2 percent over last year, other types of occupations than those last year, the proportion of Internet users cheap cell phones increase. White collar crowd from last year's 29.2% increase to 38.9% this year, accounting for 9.7 percentage points up to replace the student groups cellphone users as one of the biggest occupational hierarchy; blue-collar crowd from last year's 13.9% to 18.9% this year, accounting for rose by 5.0 percentage points, showing that mobile phones users by a group of students to the occupational groups a significant trend in the development. Ereli advice that, cheap cell phones and mobile phone users Internet users monthly income distribution of age, education, occupational distribution has strong correlation with high spending capacity of white-collar workers and some students in the crowd will be a huge cell phone china online potential consumer groups.

ass said...

The survey found that consumer 3G wholesale china from the crowd of view, the buyer 25 to 40 years old mainly white-collar workers, accounting for about 40%, followed by consumer groups of students, accounting for about three into. According to statistics, 3G wholesale products in sales, compared with a 2G mobile phone sales are still a wide gap between, but since June has been, 3G mobile phones increase in the average monthly buy products for more than 50%, "11" period due to holiday business, the increase of more than 150%. Pk that the "11" after the peak sales of 3G handsets likely to usher in more stable growth.