A Newsweek poll released over the weekend suggests that Americans may be more amendable than previously believed to the idea of a government takeover of major banks. The specific question posed by the survey asked was as follows:
As you can see, when the question is presented in this way, a majority of Americans prefer temporary nationalization to additional government bailouts. But let's be clear about what the poll does and does not say.Temporary nationalization is another way for the federal
government to deal with large banks in danger of failing.
This is where the government takes over a failing bank,
cleans its balance sheets, and then quickly sells it off.
In general, which do YOU think is the better way to deal
with failing banks... (READ)
29 Government financial aid WITHOUT any government
control of the bank, OR
56 Nationalization, where the government takes
temporary control?
11 Neither/Other (VOL.)
4 (DO NOT READ) Don’t know
First of all, the poll did not ask its respondents how comfortable they are with bank nationalization in the abstract. Instead, it asked how they feel about nationalization vis-à-vis bailouts. This is an important distinction. You might ask Americans whether they'd prefer to get a colonscopy or a root canal; if a majority said they'd prefer a colonscopy, that does not mean there'd be a line the next morning at the proctologist's office.
Secondly, the poll's wording is somewhat sympathetic toward the idea of nationalization; "cleans its balance sheets, and then quickly sells it off" sounds almost ... easy ... much easier than nationalization would be in practice.
Nevertheless, given that the poll did use the n-word (alternate phrasing such as 'takeover' polls much better), and that the n-word was preferred to bailouts by almost 2:1, I think this can be taken as a significant finding.
The key question, perhaps, is whether there is some sort of solution other than either nationalization or bailouts (or perhaps some combination thereof). Are these really the only two choices that we have?
I don't want to render a categorical answer to that question, but the answer is probably 'yes'. Although there are different flavors of nationalization, and different flavors of bailout, essentially all realistic solutions to the bailout crisis could be classified under one of those two headings. As Yves Smith compellingly explains, for instance, the 'good bank' / 'bad bank' solution probably requires nationalization first (and if it doesn't require nationalization, it will probably require a ton of capital, above and beyond what is still available through TARP funds, which gets us back into the 'bailout' column).
How about just letting the banks fail, as Senator Richard Shelby, the Ranking Republican Member on the Senate banking committee suggested that we do? Bzzt. Banks don't just disappear in this country when they become insolvent. Instead, the government steps in, protects the depositors up to the $250,000 FDIC limit, sells off what assets it can, and then gives the proceeds from those asset sales away in a particular order ... depositors who were over the $250K limit get the rest of their money back first, then creditors do, then debtholders, then, finally, stockholders (see example here). The government, by the way, doesn't wait for a bank to actually fail before doing this; it steps in almost literally in the dark of night (usually over a weekend) once such a failure appears inevitable or substantially likely. So 'letting the banks fail' is tantamount to nationalization anyway ... albeit perhaps a more chaotic version of it.
Where I break from the liberal crowd, however, is in thinking that the Administration is avoiding nationalization because of a lack of political willpower, or some kind of phobia about being accused of socialism. On the contrary, as the Newsweek poll suggests (and as I think has also been evident for some time as a matter of common sense), nationalization is probably the path of least resistance insofar as the politics of everything goes. So why isn't the Administration simply nationalizing Citi and BoA now?
Most likely because they're buying time. They're buying time to do any number of things:
a) 'Stress test' the banks to see just how bad the problems are and just which ones are candidates for nationalization;
b) Determine whether any alternatives to nationalization are still viable for the sick banks, perhaps involving existing TARP funds and "only" another hundred billion or two in taxpayer monies;
c) Figuring out how to nationalize the banks, if and when such a step is deemed to be necessary, and,
d) Getting Treasury fully staffed up, which it isn't yet.
Perhaps the Administration is holding out hope that there will be some sort of spontaneous recovery in the financial condition of the banks -- and perhaps that hope is completely naive -- but I don't think this is what is driving the policy decision. The four reasons that I provided above are sufficient to explain the obfucsaction and the delays. And remember, the Administration can't really talk about nationalization until and unless it is ready to nationalize, since merely talking about nationalization would tend to make that outcome inevitable. If (when?) a decision is made to nationalize Citi or BoA, we shouldn't expect a lot of advance warning.

91 comments
--Only post of the day on this, I promise--
Hello everyone,
If you're using Firefox with the Greasemonkey add-on, I have developed a script that will filter out the posts by known trolls (pre-populated with PeteKent and Jack-be-nimble... feel free to add as more trolls appear) which is available here. This also works with Google Chrome; see the instructions here for more info.
I absolutely do not mean for this to be used to create an echo-chamber here at fivethiryeight, but merely to improve the signal:noise ratio and elevate the level of discourse.
Install the script and never read one of PeteKent's diatribes again!
We'll hear about it before too long. I expect whatever is going to happen it'll happen within a week of the FDIC getting the OK from Congress to borrow several billion from the Treasury. Because then the FDIC will be ready to deal with the huge job.
-- -- --
I put this link at the bottom of the last thread and I'd really like to have it start playing with "Advice for Obama" (you can do that by just going to the first in the video list at the bottom and pressing Play). But I think it's worth it so people don't miss it.
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/finance?ch=4043681&cl=12394536&lang=
P.S. It kinda pisses me off because our family is in the middle of moving but I won't be able to get our equity that is above 25% out and ready for the market for a little longer. My only hope (for my own personal sake, mind you :p) is that stock prices aren't going to take off right away, I really still think it'll take till the economy numbers are clearer...although if they do move up fast I won't shed a single tear for those folks that are right now piling on stocks with shorts.
Yes, I believe that the Obama administration is playing for time. And I also think it's the responsible thing to do. Which makes the people shaking Obama's elbow and questioning his approach the irresponsible ones.
There's a bit of time yet before the other shoe has to drop. The basic triage was done last year, and while it was messy and wasteful, it did the job. But now we need to take the patient in for major surgery, and that means tests, x-rays, etcetera both to avoid waste and to make sure you don't do more harm than good.
But this is so OBVIOUS....
@Nick,
Is that how you treat anyone who offers facts/opinions that differ from your preconceived notions? To silence them? Wow, talk about being willfully ignorant.
Now, to what I wanted to post about - the grotesque hypocrisy of the Far Left:
I was speaking with a neighbor not too long ago who is notorious for bordering on the extreme liberal end of the political spectrum. I try not to make a habit of it, but it happens from time to time and the discourse is generally civil, if not cordial.
We had been talking about the genocide and other crimes against humanity in Sudan and were in agreement about how terrible the situation there is and how more intervention is needed.
Of course, being the flaming liberal my neighbor is, he spoke with much more conviction about the travesties there because we all know how they care so much more than conservatives. /sarcasm
All was well and good until the conversation turned to a local pastor whose 9-year old daughter had been murder, and as the crime was later detailed, the pastor was being targeted for no other reason than him being a Christian. Now keep in mind, a 9-year old girl was murdered! Anyway, this liberal neighbor, who had moments before spoken with every bit of sympathy he could muster for the situation in Darfur/Sudan, gave this enlightening tidbit about the plight of our local pastor and the murder of his 9-year old daughter:
"Well, serves those fundamentalist assholes right. They got what they deserve."
To say the least, I was mortified by this. Stunned. Shocked. Horrified. Who could say such a thing? Oh, I know who. I shining example of the Far Left!
The question posed asked about it in terms of control, rather than ownership.
Quite different results should be expected if the question is posed in terms of ownership.
Ask, for example, whether the government, on giving ten billion dollars to a bank, should (a) obtain an ownership stake in the bank, or (b) obtain nothing.
This is the same question as was posed in the survey, but the survey question used loaded terms such as 'nationalization' and 'control'.
These words could be relied upon to lower support for government ownership in the banks in which it has invested.
Smoking Aces, are you kidding me?
You're complaining about Far Left censorship and not wanting to hear other peoples' voices. Fair enough.
And then later you follow it up with a self-congratulatory, guilt-tripping anecdote about a 9-year old girl getting murdered and certain people gloating. And then using this to condemn everyone on the 'left'.
You know, that kind of garbage is exactly why we don't want to listen to you. Ever. Please go away,
@Nate: It's amenable -- not amendable.
Agree with the post pretty much. I want to go back to the poll question again
29 Government financial aid WITHOUT any governmentcontrol of the bank, OR56 Nationalization, where the government takestemporary control?11 Neither/Other (VOL.)4 (DO NOT READ) Don’t know
Thoughts
In addition to the temporary aspect of the control in the second half of the question I think the other main area is government financial aid without any government control in the first response.
Most of the well deserved outrage so far has been the appearance of handing out government cash without government oversight (control) I think people don't trust the banks to spend the money effectively (especially when to the layman it looks like free money) when there is little government oversight. Also to this point it also appears that the problem has not been solved and most experts beleive more money is still needed.
Personally I think government should be more involved. Since the government is handing out the money. The government should be more active in how and where the money is being spent. I am still not totally sold on outright ownership but there should be much more oversight.
Smoking Aces - Have you read any of PeteKent's diatribes? It's not that they disagree with anyone's preconceived notions, it's that they disagree with objective reality. He generally has a running dialog with himself where he posts 4 or 5 comments in a row, where each successive comment ups the ante with even more ludicrous bare assertions, more ridiculously premature conclusions, and more childish name-calling. Maybe it would help if I provide an example of an anti-PeteKent:
"It's clear by now that Obama is at the very least among the top five US Presidents ever. His handling of the economy has been vastly superior even to FDR's. He makes B*tch McC*ntel and John Boner look like the rank amateurs they are. I only hope that there's room on Mt. Rushmore for him."
If you think that was vomit-inducing (as it should be), then imagine how PeteKent's posts look from the other side of the aisle, especially when there are 4 of them in a row.
Smoking Aces: So someone who was liberal has a bizarre and disgusting opinion. Not sure what relevance that has, unless you care to engage in ad hominem attacks (A person who believes X is scum. Therefore, X is discredited).
Also, selectively ignoring someone is not silencing them. The tone of PeteKent's and Jack-be-nimble's posts are often pretty insulting and lacking in any factual content. I see nothing wrong with removing them at the HTML level, particularly if you're the sort who's likely to respond to the worst of them if you read them.
@Howard, Mana, and Nick-
But where's the outrage and attempts to censor posters (and there are a few like this) who offer their own far left ideological rants that are nothing more than verbal attacks, insults, and calls for brutality against conservatives?
Oh, I guess there aren't any because you agree with them. If you want to silence PeteKent because you think he shares nothing but pointless, factless "right-wing" talking points under the guise of "they're detached from objective reality", that's fine.
I can only surmise, then, that by you not suggesting comments from left-wingers - PorridgeGun comes to mind as someone who is reckless and belligerent and makes very disgusting, disturbing, and irrelevant posts about conservatives - then you fully endorse what he has to say.
The White House is trying to paint all conservatives around Rush Limbaugh and force people to either cling to him or denounce him, so I'll do the same. Either you endorse the left-wing sickos on here or you are opposed to their hateful commentary. If you are opposed, speak up and call for their expulsion or censorship or be labelled as an extremist as they are.
Nate-
It's colonoscopy,not colonscopy.And they are done by gastroenterologists ,not proctologists.
SA:
You're stereotyping again and once again you're using the stereotyping to make backhanded insults at other posters.
This is my first time on the comments section of this page and if this is all there is to it, people whining and pointing fingers and going 'b-b-but he did it first! That's why I get to post disgusting stories of 9-year olds being murdered' then you won't find me here a lot.
Smoking Aces, you are exactly the reason why that person introduced that ignore function. You post disgusting and stereotyped drivel and hide behind a facile definition of objectivity and tu quoque when called on it. No one wants to ignore your posts because you're a conservative. People want to ignore you because you're annoying.
Are CNBC and Jim Cramer gaming the market with their shows?
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/are-cnbc-and-jim-cramer-gaming-market-t
Good to see you're referencing Yves. But as she has acknowledged, Buiter does not agree with the stated disadvantages of the good bank solution. (Anyway, I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of her post regarding the disadvantages anyway).
Plus she has noted the farce that is the current set of stress tests so I don't believe those are the reasons for delays.
And, most damningly to Obama, Yves has noted a posting that Obama ain't listening to enlightened bloggers anyhow.
CNBC are stuck in a worse case scenario of groupthink I think.
I favor a bank holiday, during which every financial institution in the country will be closed until it can be inspected. The sound ones should be reopened, the unsound ones should be nationalized-if you don't like that word, call it 'receivership'. I really don't care what your favorite noun is, just do it.
The heart of the problem is the lack of confidence creditors have toward potential borrowers. Nobody knows which banks are insolvent-well, okay, we know, but we're not supposed to say, but the insolvent ones rhyme with Shittybank and Skank of America. We can't keep propping up zombie banks, that will co$t much more over the long run than nationalizing them, dismissing the Board, reforming them until they turn enough of a profit to repay the taxpayers, and then get sold off as smaller banks to investors.
The longer we delay this, the longer the recession will endure.
@alphabetzoo
There is separation between "ain't listening" and “we don’t spend a lot of time looking at blogs”. :)
Signal-to-noise ratio in the overall blogsphere isn't exactly sterling. You manage to help underline that by linking to a blog post that consists of quoting the Whitehouse and not adding a hell of a lot itself. ;)
Seriously, some perspective would be great.
Now if the Whitehouse is somehow entirely isolated from things like this ( http://www.kc.frb.org/speechbio/hoenigPDF/Omaha.03.06.09.pdf )? Well that's a different matter. But really how much would you be filtering through if you tried to widely read blogs? Not to mention the issue of lacking interactivity and 2-way discourse.
I don't think it's so much a matter of political will, as it is a matter of market reaction. A lot of people are afraid of a big collapse if they announce nationalization.
I'm going to do a little excersize just to examine the nationalize some or don't do anything crowd. It's going to be real basic so please don't comment on that part of it. You have bank A and Bank B. Bank A and B both have billions upon billions of business they do with each other, from lending, to counterpartying agreements, to collateralizing each others portfolio's (welcome to the global economy). So say Bank A has some bad assets, did some bad business, and bank B finds out Bank A might not be able to fulfill a small part of it's obligations. So Bank B, which avoided most of these deals, stops doing business with bank A. So Bank C finds out about this and they stop doing business with A. Eventually, Bank A's clients find out about this and immediately switch their money to B and C. Now Bank A has no capital. You'd think Bank B would be happy it stopped doing future business with Bank A, but unfortunately, it still has billions tied up in prior business with a now defunct Bank A, meaning it now has capital problems (see where I'm going with this). I have no idea what the end solution is, but this "nationalize" some, or all, needs to be carefully thought through and planned if it were to take place, as even the mere mention by someone high up of it could send shockwaves throughout everyone. Anyone who thought even the best mind could possibly have a full plan after 50 days is lost further in the wilderness than can possibly be found.
Seems to me that we are already nationalizing certain companies (CITI and AIG). Without coming out and saying it, the government will own all or nearly all of these two companies in the very near future. Common share holders have already been significantly diluted, and may be eventually wiped out all together.
However, there is a common perception, driven by the media, that all of this has been one big bailout. Free money from heaven.
People do not care that shareholders have been wiped out. Shareholders are the "common man". People want to see the executives that contributed to this Hell pay. Preferably, they should all be flipping burgers or scrubbing toilets, but at the very least they should have to forgo their outrageous bonuses.
Until, we see a major shakeup in management, with many top executive being placed on the chopping block, the public is going to view all of this as a "bailout".
@Alex
Citibank shares have been, quite literally, 98% wiped out in the markets. There isn't a hell of a lot left to be taken away there. Then you've got their debtors and even there bonds have already been heavily marked down by the market. So even if sales of assets only recovered 75 cents on the dollar that would like be a push or maybe even a win for some bond holders.
After that you have depositors and that's what the FDIC is for, if you need any cash for that, and that's recoverable money as FDIC insurance premiums that all banks collectively pay will eventually repay that loan to the Treasury.
No, if there is any lack of political will it is of the simple "oh noes, Obama is socialist!" brand. Which I'm just not sure there is because there is building cover for that coming from the Republican Senators. Even if Shelby can't bring himself to say the 'n' word.
@John
There is a fixed hierarchy of who gets paid first. Generally it is insured depositors, salaries, debtors, shareholders. Within the debtors category you have further stratification and these were outlined up front. Salaries are actually within the debtors category but with extra implicit legal protection.
When the bank first gets taken over the FDIC immediately allows up to full withdrawal from each account with $250,000 or less. AS A DEPOSITOR YOU ARE FULLY COVERED FOR THIS AMOUNT! There is no need to run on a bank...unless you have an account that has more than 1/4 million in it or the total of all your accounts in that bank is some much larger number (I forget the number offhand).
Then the FDIC will do a quick eyeball of the assets and give a partial payment of the debtors based on estimates of how much they'll be covered. They then boot the board and management from the top down to whatever level they think is appropriate.
Next they resell the company to one or more investors. Usually another bank but not necessarily.
They may also sell it piecemeal, especially if it is some sort of Frankenstein with pieces that don't belong together. Or if it has some of these bad loans that are of questionable value. They can spin those out and sell them separately.
This last thing, depending on how it was handled, could actually help other banks get a better handle on their own situation by determining a somewhat real market value for these loans that nobody is sure of what value they have.
The word "nationalization" is loaded, and I'd bet that most people who aren't up to speed on the banking crisis would assume that it's permanent, and somehow related to socialism.
@ peter:
And most of THOSE people would be basing that on a complete misunderstanding of what Socialism is. The talking heads and pollsters throw out these words like "nationalism" and "socialism" without ever defining them or putting them in any context, which leads the average person (and definitely the Kool-aid drinker) to jump to conclusions without any understanding of the underlying concepts.
Case in point, I heard someone say "OK, Obama's experiment with socialism has failed. Let's try something else before people start putting money under their mattresses". The statement seems to imply that they believe that the actions Obama has taken to date are in fact "socialist". When I pressed for specifics, the person simply said "of course its socialist. he's asking everyone to share in the wealth and his plans will end up punishing those who make profits". I just shook my head and told him he needed to bone up on his understanding of economic theory, then we'd have this discussion.
Unfortunate that asking someone to bone up on economics when the media has so clearly called something socialist is a waste of time.
The glowing box said it, so it must be true!
Oh my God!
Richard Posner is one of smartest guys on the planet - he is a Judge and a prof at U of Chicago and a great economist. He just wrote a book - The crash of '08 and the coming depression.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674035143/ref=nosim/nationalreviewon
YIKES!!!!
"Posner: It’s Worse Than You Think [Ed Whelan]
In his forthcoming book A Failure of Capitalism: The Crisis of ’08 and the Descent into Depression (Harvard University Press), the amazingly prolific Richard A. Posner (who in his spare time serves as a Seventh Circuit judge) aims to present a “concise, constructive, jargon- and acronym-free, non-technical, unsensational, light-on-anecdote, analytical examination of the major facets of the biggest U.S. economic disaster in my lifetime [Posner was born in 1939] and that of most people living today.”
I’ve just received the galley version and have read only the preface and the conclusion, but it’s clear from those that Posner blames the deregulation of the banking industry since the 1970s as the ultimate cause of the ongoing crisis and that he also faults the Federal Reserve and other economic agencies for being unprepared to deal with the crisis when it arose. Writing even before President Obama presented his budget plan, Posner thinks it will be a long time before the economy recovers."
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OTk3YWJjMjgyMWNjNDMyNTMwNWU2NmY0MTk2ZTA3NGM=
It's funny. I can't find much to suggest that any of the American commentariat here, at Calculated Risk, the Big Picture or any economy blog has conveyed any understanding of the international ramifications of a Citi or AIG collapse so I looked it up, admittedly on wikipedia.
Citi has tendrils in several continents. It could crash the economy of Poland, for example, while it's already on the ropes. It can cause huge messes in Latin America.
AIG means American International Group and was founded in China. My stepdad ran data bases for it in Hong Kong. It holds the PRC's equivalent of Social Security in a pension fund the PRC commissioned.
That in itself is strange, a 'communist' country with a privatized national pension system.
Whee, lets mess with the PRC's pension system when they already have us by the short hairs with all the treasury bills they own due to our fondness for overseas slave labor and cheap junk at Walmart.
Face it, we Americans are a myopic self centered tantrum brat nation full of fat clueless dunces.
Anyone could just look this up and it's odd that Obama hasn't brought it up but it is probably such a horrid clusterfuck that no one wants to talk about it.
If these two monstrosities are like a complex brain cancer on the planetary finance body than the US can't just nationalize the things without a workout with every applicable national government on earth. Fun huh?
And the wiki on Citi is particularly interesting as FDR cited the 20's era CEO as being one of the 50 people most responsible for the great depression. Evidently Citi is an old hand at causing planetary financial catastrophes.
Good analysis, once again, Nate. Just one bone to pick with you, though: As somebody who has gotten a colonoscopy, I prefer to go see the "gastroenterologist", rather than the "proctologist."
But either way, it means seeing the Assman.
This quote from the Buiter article referenced by Yves Smith sums up the situation pretty well:
"But from a public sector accounting and government accountability point of view, transparency-dodging and accountability-avoiding governments much prefer insurance or guarantees to outright purchases. The reason is that insurance is off-balance sheet. It is a contingent liability, which is not entered at its fair value on the liability side of the government balance sheet under the uninformative government accounting practices followed in the UK and most other countries. It ought to be..."
What's subject to dispute is his conclusion "It ought to be...". The Fed went for guarantees because its job is to keep the economy from collapsing. It had no authority, even working with the Treasury, to commit the US to an on balance sheet solution to the tune of at least $3 trillion. Nor was there the slightest prospect of its being able to get such authority in time for it to do any good.
The Fed was created as an ultimate example of representative as opposed to direct democracy. It was rightly believed that the government of the US can't act quickly and decisively enough in a financial crisis and that even if it could, giving it that much control of the financial system would inevitably result in government tinkering for populist or cronyist reasons with the inevitable results (Argentina comes to mind, a country that once had prospects of being one of the world's leading economies.).
So, "It ought to be..." is impeccable accounting and economics, but it isn't within the realm of the immediately politically possible in this country. It will take a financial crisis of an extent I have no desire to experience to convince congress to reform the system to that extent. I'm not even sure it's a good idea. In government as in life, certain illusions are necessary. People have evolved to be optimists. The pessimists went extinct. Does that accord with a realist government? I don't know, but I expect realist government would have its own considerable downside.
AIG means American International Group and was founded in China. My stepdad ran data bases for it in Hong Kong. It holds the PRC's equivalent of Social Security in a pension fund the PRC commissioned.
Ah ha! I knew that we didn't allow AIG to collapse because the Chinese threatened to do a wholesale selloff of our treasuries, thereby destroying our ability to borrow. But until now, I didn't know why.
Thanks, that explains a lot.
@peter, PeixeGato, & Drowzee-
It's hard for me to sympathize much with your frustration over the liberal use of the word "socialism" by family, friends, acquaintances, total strangers, the media, etc.
While I disagree with much of Obama's platform and think there are hints of socialism in there, it hardly reeks of the unabashed socialism (or even communism) that he is often accused of championing.
However, I don't get up in arms over it because I've seen many a conservative be tarred and feathered as a "racist" for not supporting affirmative action policies or quotas for minorities.
When I hear that word - racist - thrown around so recklessly by people who refuse to use an ounce of common sense and seek only to use strawman arguments (likening the anti-affirmative action person to the KKK or neo-Nazis), then I refuse to stand up in defense of the use (or misuse) of the terms socialism and communism when there's about the same amount of truth in each case.
Now I realize that one doesn't have to belong to the KKK or some other neo-Nazi group to be racist, and it's very likely that some people are anti-affirmative action because they are racist. But if something as simple as that (being anti-affirmative action) is going to earn you the label of being racist, then exhibiting quasi-socialist tendencies should equally make one a full-blown socialist.
I posted this in reply to Nate (and to confound Nick at the top above!) and wanted to make sure none of my fans missed my take on how I am beginning to think that Obama is not just misguided but seems determined to intentionally ruin the economy . . . .
Pete Kent is not Smarter than Obama (and that makes me very suspicious of him)
Putting aside Nate's typical Obama style ad hominem attack on yet another private citizen (like Democrat Jim Cramer, former trader Rick Santelli and radio host Rush Limbaugh), I came to much the same conclusion as Kevin Hassett did over the weekend: Obama must be trying to screw with the economy 'cause it isn’t so hard to see how bad his policies are and how they are systematically destroying the wealth of the nation.
It is pretty apparent that Obama has become anathema to the stock market, once the repository for the nation's retirement, pension and college savings. Just since he took office 20% of that value is gone, with more than a third of asset values erased since his election despite a brief post-election confidence rally.
Since then Obama has waged war on the investor class, as if he mistakenly believes they were some "other" when we all know they are us.
His war against the banks is legendary given his contemptuous treatment of these institutions and his VP's threat to throw their CEOs in "the Brig". Heck, that’s straight talk worthy of John McCain, but are words never before uttered by a sitting US President, least of all one presiding over a collapsing economy being lead down by a lack of confidence in the financial sector. Way to go, Barrack, and build things back up!
Don’t he know better?
Consider the more general war he has waged on business. Threatening to increases taxes, further burden with them higher labor costs (for health care), while making it easier for them to unionize. He has gone back on his promise to give a $3,000 tax credit for each new hire and has generally talked down the economy where based on his policies and his rhetoric only a foolhardy businessman would be willing to expand his business and increase employment. This is even true in more robust sectors of the economy like health care where ownership and management understand that his government takeover of healthcare will be done at the cost of lower reimbursement, making them unwilling to grow and expand.
So everyone in the private sector sits on the sidelines and waits. Trembling even with terror as to what this political colossus we call Obama will wrought with his power and majesty.
If Obama wanted to rally the markets to sail back up to pre-election day level she could do it in one brilliant stroke. He could create the conditions whereby business would be willing to stick its head up above the foxhole and begin to invest again in new plants and new jobs.
What does he need to do?
Make the Bush tax cuts permanent!
Obama could simply say, "I recognize that the threat of higher taxes in the face of the present economic uncertainly is creating a drag on economic activity and is suppressing confidence in the reality of the recovery I know is coming. For that reason today I am calling on Congress to make the Bush income and capital gains tax cuts permanent."
He could even signal that once the recovery is underway -- hopefully by 2011, he and Congress can revisit the revenue situation and then make a determination to raise taxes as necessary and appropriate, but in the meantime there is no reason to leave the depressing overhang of tax hikes out there suppressing growth and keeping us from moving forward.
Oh, and he might just stop bashing the banks, and business and the rich all the time. He is going to need their cooperation if he is going to turn things around.
Or maybe he is planning on reworking things according to a new paradigm for America: Socialism.
And all of this destruction of wealth and leveling of the economic playing field and warfare on the private sector is in fact intended as this Kevin Hassett fellow seems to think it is.
Right now, Obama, who is very smart seems to only be acting dumb. I'd place my bet that Hassett is right and that Nate, once again, is a wanker!
(You can now follow me on Twitter –PeteKent01)
@Chris Rich
You said the secret word "cl*ster**k" and the duck has come down with your $200.
The situation is at least as bad as you portrayed it and probably a lot worse.
For instance the Eurozone is not the same the EEC. A number of non-Euro EEC countries (or rather their inhabitants and institutions) have amassed huge debts in Euros to banks in Euro countries. If they can't pay, it would likely destroy the EEC as it exists currently and take down the banks which hold the loans. This would destroy the international banking system. We could only survive by some form of repudiation, since half of the counterparties would have ceased to exist.
Unfortunately, since the EEC has no Fed, it's not clear who is in charge of fixing the mess. So far the rich governments are still in denial.
Do we want to take this situation and poke it in the eye with a stick?
Then there's Russia. The government has huge reserves, but, unfortunately, their private sector has even larger debts. There has already started to be civil unrest. Let's just stir this up a bit and see what happens.
Japan is stuck like a deer in the headlights. They've never had a situation like this, and they have a disfunctional government. If even Toyota can lose money and need help, what hope is there for the rest of them?
This is not a boat you rock, and people who propose to do so are irresponsible clueless idiots.
Just want to point out how smart petekent is...here was his take on the presidential election:
"This is the very avatar of "thin reed". it wont go nowhere, like the Bridge! I have long harbored the suspicion that this race will reveal an electoral map like Bush v. Dukakis. Obama seems trapped in an empty, cotton candy of a campaign, without substance and without hope. The lie has been put to the notion that he is a change agent and the meme is taking hold that he is little more than an eloquent hack politician from Chicago, who afraid of his own shadow chose the wrong running mate and sewed the seeds of his own doom. McCain, who has known repeated adversity in his life, went for the knock-out punch with Sarah Palin and it seems to be paying off big time. In one fell swoop he reinvigorated his campaign and set it on the road to reformist victory, while creating the new post-feminist icon in his running mate."
Stupid, stupid, stupid. Quite possilby the most out of touch being I've encountered on the internet.
@lojasmo:
Thanks for wading in the vast pool of PK shit and finding that 'gem.'
PeteKent,
Is a post like that (as wrong as you are - though I'm fairly certain neither of us will convince the other) so hard to make without resorting to childish name-calling (e.g. "Ovomit") and ad-hominems?
For the record, the script doesn't completely remove the comment, just hides it.
I don't defend the liberal posters here who resort to such tactics either, but it was your actions in particular that inspired me to create the script in the first place.
Nick is a hypocritical douche. Denounce the hysterical rantings of PorridgeGun and other liberal goons on here or I'm forced to accuse you of endorsing them. You've made an example of PeteKent on the conservative side, now call out the liberals on here who are insulting and barbaric.
Do it now!!
Hate to say it, but another possible reason for the dithe...errr... delay in fixing the banking system is...
They realize how ridiculously expensive it is going to be, like well over $1T, likely waaaay over.
IOW, the US (and world) banking system is not only insolvent as a whole, it's so far in the red that there is no pool of money on earth big enough to bail them out -- somebody, lots of somebodies other than the banks are going to have to take a serious haircut to put this behind us.
Any solution.. nationalization or what-have-you, will just be rearranging the deck chairs.
And, coming right out and saying that would be like having Wiley Coyote look down... keeeerash!
So that's why Geithner/Summers/Obama are willing to sound like dithering idiots... probably hoping that the world figures it out on their own, but slowly enough that they can ditch -- ideally in the Hudson -- rather than into a mountain.
Nick has too much time on his hands, but is at least being polite and cognizant of my having accepted (his?) criticism of my earlier antics, which I will admit made my earlier posts unappetizing to those of you I most want to reach: my ideological opponents! I did enjoy Nick’s vague self-conscious guilt about his own creeping Stalinism as if blocking out ideas is they way to combat those that you disagree with! I think he must be young and very impulsive . . .
lojasmo I thank for the walk down memory lane. I still stand by the sentiments in that ancient post written it seems in another era when our 401ks were actually worth something! I underestimated the power of the MSM to bias coverage and demonize and degrade a campaign and to not do its job in exposing not only the emptiness of Obama, but in fact ignoring the very real signs of who he was.
I think we have moved now from the "cotton candy campaign" to the “cotton candy Presidency” where Obama seems club footed and unsure in his governance (both foreign and domestic) and would prefer simply to massage public opinion and use Orwellian double speak to promote his popularity while all the while pushing a wrong-headed and ruinous agenda.
It is all too clear to me that Obama is anti-business and his bias is so great that he would rather sacrifice the people's recovery, their jobs and their wealth to his greater goal of re-engineering society along redistributionist lines, believing I suppose that that is where the greater good lies.
It may, but he won't be overt about his intentions and so there is no real debate and we simply slide into socialism, having to trust Obama like some sort of benevolent dictator.
The whole things makes me want to retch.
And I hope he fails!
(You can now follow me on Twitter –PeteKent01)
I've been surprised at the support of bank nationalization on both sides. Linday Graham and Alan Greenspan are both jumping on the band wagon.
I don't think the government has any business running a private enterprise that should have maximization of profits as its main objective. The government might not be able to assemble a management team to run these gigantic banks. Finding one individual (a secretary of commerce for example) proved to be a major hassle for the government; compare that to finding and recruiting hundreds or maybe thousands of managers and talented directors for these banks. How many resources (public resources) will be wasted only on the assembly of this management?
My guess is that most Americans don't think the goverment does a very good job of doing anything.
What makes us think they will do a good job of running our banks?
Zappa and Tony C:
Now is not the time to elimnate secret ballots in unions elections much the way it is not the time to raise taxes.
Unions can only be strong and thrive when business is in the same condition. Card check is bad law in any and all events and is anti-worker and anti-democratic.
The funny thing about tax cuts is that throughout history they have worked to lift us out of economic doldrums. Deficit spending only causes infaltion and consternation in the fiancial markets absent the conditons for robust growth which of course do not exist right now.
You cand efent Obama all you want, but until he reverses course, embraces Amercian business as the economic engine of the people and agrees not to raise taxzes we will have only a recovery in the governemnt sector, the economy will not recover more broadly and the GOP will return to power in a big way wiping away six years of Democratic electoral progress.
I know many of you would like to believe otherwise, but facts and the priciples of economics are stubborn things.
@Chris
While AIG was founded in China it was done so by pasty white American. An American spy no less.
Managing PRC assets isn't a big deal in regards to what amounts to a bank version of bankruptcy. Taking Citibank through the "car wash" isn't going to touch that at all, because those PRC assets are going to separate from AIG's assets.
Peter Kent -- just go away. It's this kind of mindless ideologizing that got us there in the first place.
Just look at Alan -- Ayn Randie -- Greenspan -- perhaps the one guy who actually could have stopped it in time. At least he had guts enough to admit his mistake, though way too late.
Zappa and Tony C:
Now is not the time to elimnate secret ballots in unions elections much the way it is not the time to raise taxes.
Unions can only be strong and thrive when business is in the same condition. Card check is bad law in any and all events and is anti-worker and anti-democratic.
The funny thing about tax cuts is that throughout history they have worked to lift us out of economic doldrums. Deficit spending only causes infaltion and consternation in the fiancial markets absent the conditons for robust growth which of course do not exist right now.
You cand efent Obama all you want, but until he reverses course, embraces Amercian business as the economic engine of the people and agrees not to raise taxzes we will have only a recovery in the governemnt sector, the economy will not recover more broadly and the GOP will return to power in a big way wiping away six years of Democratic electoral progress.
I know many of you would like to believe otherwise, but facts and the priciples of economics are stubborn things.
GROG-
How it took so long to hear Billl Seidman in the wilderness - who has called for nationalization from day one - is stunning. It is clear these banks(and AIG) must be taken down and spun out as healthy entities. We actually made money when we did this last time (in the RTC). I really doubt that happens this time, but we must do what we must do. The banking system must turn or we are looking squarely at ad epression.
> I've been surprised at the support of bank nationalization on both sides. Linday Graham and Alan Greenspan are both jumping on the band wagon.
Duh, it's the wing of the Republican party that wants the government to be the patsy. The one that wants government to be left holding the bag ... and then scream about all the debt that has to be cut, and guess who's back that is on? :) It's the side of Republican party that the [in the end smaller, less in control] libertarian portion of the Republican party either denies exists or wishes didn't.
Incidentally this is also why it is a bugaboo to refer to it as "nationalization". What they undoubtedly have in mind is akin bankruptcy court, which is the normal process.
That is why I agree with Shelby in refusing to use the "nationalization" word. Unfortunately he creates an even more off picture when he says "I don't want to nationalize them. I think we need to close them...We bury the small banks; we've got to bury some big ones and send a strong message to the market."
The US government doesn't actually "bury" the little banks, though they do often go through a name change and/or get merged.
Maybe they are still going to try keep Citibank floating? I'm just armchair quarterbacking this, really anyone that doesn't have an inside look at Citibank is doing just that, but it seems like a
P.S. AIG is a different beast entirely and it looks like a walking dead company that the government is trying to lead in a somewhat orderly manner to the graveyard for dismantling so it can be given a proper burial, once it's insurance policies and other commitments are taken care of.
What would happen if we called what has to happen "Americanization" instead of "nationalization"? I'm guessing support for it would go up, even if it involved exactly the same steps.
At least among the "freedom fries" contingent.
It is quite evident to all now that Dwight has a very small penis. He uses "big" or "long" posts to compensate for being "small" or "short" elsewhere.
We're onto you, Dwight. You have micro-penis. What is it, like 1 or 2 inches hard?
@Fred: The whole idea of "taking down" AIG has to be the single most daunting idea for the Obama administration. AIG is a monster. And it's got many moving parts. (My own parents hold about 5 different insurance policies now managed by AIG but that came into AIG's hands over a period of several decades as AIG absorbed smaller companies.)
If you "take AIG down" who is going to actually manage the transition? How large a staff do you need? What parts of it do you reorganize? How do you deal with the thousands of AIG clients while all of this is happening?
It's not like simply taking on AIG's accounting department -- there are all these service units. Who's going to manage this? The Treasury Department? They'd need dozens of employees.
So if you're going to try to take AIG down, you had better have a staffing plan and operational plan and a ton of accountants.
@Juris
It has begun. They are spinning out the viable subsidiaries away from the rotten corpse of the parent company (and the fuxored parts like their French bank that they used to give all the [phony] loan protection to other banks).
AIG might never actually close it's doors, and won't be "taken down" like a bank normally would be, but it is well on it's way to becoming just be a shell company who's only purpose is to live up to it's liabilities to keep from blowing up the rest of the US's and the world's economy.
@dwight,
Yeah, I'm betting the word
'American' in AIG means it probably isn't of Croation or Mongolian origin. It seemed to rise out of early 20th century biz in China.
It would be cool if the PRC liability spins off but is that established or conjecture?
And Citi is a different mess configuration so conflating them won't help.
> It would be cool if the PRC liability spins off but is that established or conjecture?
If they are "managing" the pension fund that means the assets are held in an entirely separate, arm's length entity. As gross as the irresponsibility was at AIG, and it was really really bad, that would be an entirely different [legal] line to cross to have the pension fund within AIG or a subsidiary.
SmokingAces:
Huh?
I was just pointing out that telling someone to 'bone up' on a topic results in no progress if no push is applied.
My critique is that Americans, as a people, are lazy, particularly when it comes to subjects affecting their pocketbooks or welfare.
Telling someone to 'get informed' then leaving them to it won't make them seek knowledge if they already believe the hype from the mouthpieces. It's equivalent to giving up and letting the ignorance grow.
I hardly see why this makes me out to be an attacker.
But I suppose we are seeing the great trollocalypse here on 538. Granted, the initial post about a means to not see PeteKent's rambling rants is crass, but it doesn't stop him from making them.
Consider that no one is forced to use the application, and no one is stopping PeteKent, GROG, or yourself from posting, as is obvious by this point in the thread.
You, SmokingAces, were far out of line in characterizing the entire left as extremists. I consider myself a leftist moderate; pro-choice, fiscally conservative, and convinced our entire tax system needs a revamp to keep the rich from exploiting the working class, as has been happening for the past 30 years.
But I'd sympathize with your pastor's plight, though I am an atheist. No one should be targeted for their faith. NO ONE.
Extremists do cause the problems, but by painting broad swathes of any opposition as extremists, you yourself are shutting down any useful debate, since anything an extremist says is so ideologically motivated it cannot be true to anyone but the lunatic fringe.
PeteKent has been treating us to quite expansive posts that have belittled our ideas and candidates and sought to create agitation and falsity in the face of facts. We have, as a community of "left wing granola nuts", have grown tired of him as a troll that undermines the signal to noise ratio of the discussion.
Opposing viewpoints are welcome. Insults and ad hominem attacks are not. This topic is not about that poor girl who was murdered. It is about a poll suggesting that Americans might support nationalizing banks.
An interesting fact about AIG being tied to the PRC's retirement fund has also come to light, casting darker shadows on our situation.
And yet you persist in calling us the extremists?
Please put your money where your mouth is and start contributing; if you cannot do that, at least offer your views on the subject at hand so we can start talking rather than accusing.
I'm not so quick to label PeteKent a simple troll. While I disagree with Pete, at least he does try to support his arguments with some data. I would imagine that trying to argue your point on a site that is diametrically opposed to said point could cause the argument to degenerate.
On the other hand, the language and lack of evidence to support their arguments has labeled Jack and Smoking Aces.
A couple of comments, really.
@Nate (do you really read all these?:
I think you give the poll, in some ways, WAY too much weight, even as you try to undercut it a bit. Look at the way that it's preceded with the question of control, in such a way as to highlight bailout money without control... even though that's not necessarily the case. If it had been portrayed as putting strings on the bailout money vs. direct control via nationalization, I strongly suspect the prejudice against nationalization would materialize more strongly.
No quibbles with the rest of the post, though.
@ Fred
I agree--Posner is a genius, even when I disagree with him, which is frequently. (He's all about "law and economics," which is a great theory if humans behaved "economically," but they don't.) He's also a libertarian conservative, which makes an attack on the _deregulation_ of the banks all the more interesting from him. (He's always been a scrupulously fair conservative, though, so it's not exactly surprising. He's also attacked the Supreme Court decision on gun control in _Heller,_ for example.)
I may have to take a peek at that thing.
Dwight, just wanted to respond to your earlier point...Of course there "shouldn't" be a run on banks due to the limits in place, but that is what happens nonetheless...
It is obviously intellectually silly, the same way I find silly those who pull their money out of the bank due to the entire industry collapsing. The reason the second is silly is because if the US banking system collapses, the only thing that money someone took out of the bank would be worth is use as fire kindling anyways. The scenerio I put forth is a very simplified, but relatively accurate, portrayal of the Bear Stearns debacle, which directly caused the credit crisis that ground everything to a standstill...
Once Bear went down (with Lehman and WaMu), it became a guessing game of who's next...Literally, one week, every major player just decided to stop doing business with Bear on anything, basically freezing assets...Again, this is a complete outsiders take from things I have heard from others, but based on this and the government actions, it is straightforward to see the mechanics of the situation...And as each of these players fails (or is taken under government control without corresponding set up of bondhonders recourse), the situation gets concurrently worse for everyone else (as the survivors horde more capital to not become less...hence the point of the detractors, it looks like Obama is biding time, because he is...Not for nefarious purpose but for the fact that once dominoes start falling, they are pretty much writing the fate of every business in this country that uses the banking system (IE all of them)...
It's not that he is clueless, or nefarious, or his team incompetent, it's the fact that without the exact right response, biding time is by far the best option until the best plan can be implemented.
@Drowzee
I think saying people are lazy isn't necessarily accurate. I think people figure the loudest person is usually the right one more due to human nature than anything. I'll use an anecdote to display. My brother (far from lazy or dumb) happens to be a Rush listener that I occasionally delve into about subjects. Last year over the holidays, he started mouthing some ridiculous talking points regarding the current financial sitaution, which having spent many years reading, researching and working on things of this nature, I tried to fill in some of the details Rush was spewing. The rebuke was a series of silly talking points that anyone with a lick of experience analyzing any economic data would scoff at...So here's the point, I have a brother who knows what I do for a living and what I've studied, trying to explain to me the finer point of the industry I had dedicated my life too, solely based on someone's "opinion" he had never met, nor studied his credentials on the subject matter (to which, based on my research, Rush has no specific training in financial debt obligations). It cracks me up to this day, not because I think any less of my family member, but because it taught me a valuable lesson about the intracacies of thought process and getting the wrong info ingrained in your head...I think PeteKent suffers from the same issues, with the influx of people who have no clue what they are talking spewing forth ignorance like experts, it only extends the problems (somewhat similar to a point Nate made about a month ago). now do i think I'm 100% right, of course not, but I can back my claims up with experience and research, where as Rush backs this up with venom (usually the first resort of those who haven't a clue what they are talking about). But it's not laziness...
> The scenerio I put forth is a very simplified, but relatively accurate, portrayal of the Bear Stearns debacle, which directly caused the credit crisis that ground everything to a standstill...
Except it wasn't the depositors that pulled out and left Bear for dead, it was the overnight lenders that sounded the death nell. Sure reporters could find folks on the street willing to go on camera saying they were pulling out all their cash and stuffing it under their pillows. But generally I saw that bracketed with pretty good coverage of FDIC insurance. Plus the Whitehouse didn't have the benefit of planning having a high profile bank crash. Or, let's face it, due to politics of the election and a winding down term, a President that was ready, eager, and energized to be seen by the public.
Yes, if the Whitehouse is going take over a big profile bank (especially Citibank) they are going to have to do a huge media blitz for this. Obama with the 21st century version of a Fireside Chat, and saturation with a clear simple story.
Who knows, maybe the ilk of folks like World Weekly News, Glen Beck, etc. and so on will actually be consciencious enough towards their viewers not turn it into a circus of "the US is ending, socialism is here, Obama is the Beast come to destroy us from within". That'd be pretty damn big of them.
The thing with Citibank is kinda weird. Because what has happened now with the latest stock shuffle is that Citibank has been made to look, at least superficially, sound by the measure of common share value.
P.S. It seems very unlikely that bond holders would be entirely exposed even if the governement didn't put in any [more] money.
I would like to see some version of this (as advocated by Karl Denninger):
* The CDS casino must be closed today. The AIG revelations are an outrage - we are sending tens of billions of dollars into AIG to prop up US and foreign banks as a consequence of these swaps? This can be stopped with the stroke of a pen and must happen now. Let the ISDA and bankers scream - suspend all CDS contracts until they are on an exchange with a central counterparty and margin has been established and proved. Those for which margin can't be established or proved are void as fraudulent upon issue; the money never existed to pay them off. This charade called CDS must end.
* You must pledge to send the FBI after everyone involved in the embezzlement during the previous ten and more years, whether they be borrowers, lenders, bankers or otherwise. Liars on mortgage applications, liars in marketing these securities, liars all around - all must be prosecuted.
* We must separate investment and commercial banking services. Banking is a utility function and it must be safe. We had it right with Glass-Steagall. Make it a priority to reinstate that law and force the breakup of the monsters that have led us to this cliff. If an investment bank wants to play "hedge fund" or "proprietary trading", fine - but if they blow up they must not be allowed to sink our economy and banking system.
* The Fed must be directed to open their kimono and disclose everything they are doing, daily, including what they're taking in, from whom, how it is being valued and how it is being "haircut" or margined. Equity investments made by The Fed are clearly unlawful under The Federal Reserve Act and must be immediately disgorged. If The Fed doesn't like living within the law, then Treasury must go around them and issue Treasury Notes itself; their franchise exists at our pleasure, not the other way around.
* The ongoing charade in our housing market must end. The FHA's rate of "first payment defaults" has tripled in the last year. Safe mortgages require a significant down payment - at least 10% and more commonly 20% - which means no seller-funded down payment assistance and the end of the 3% FHA down payment. Keep the VA program for our service people but the rest must be scrapped. FHA insured mortgages are a good thing but we must drive the fraudsters out of the mortgage system and prosecute them - we're not doing it, and it is dramatically exacerbating this crisis.
* Insist that every firm that is traded on a public exchange in The United States produce a consolidated balance sheet and financials without exception - no off-balance sheet games and no BS or tricks. ALL "assets" must be disclosed along with their pricing models. Any firm that refuses is delisted immediately.
> CDS...This can be stopped with the stroke of a pen and must happen now.
Setting aside the how much damage that will do to the balance sheets of many, many banks that are already about to be in a real pickle as loans defaults really start picking up (not just mortgages; CC, personal secured & unsecured, and commercial property).
They have just spun off AIA and AIU to handle the normal insurance policies. Those policies are desparately needed by literally 10's of millions of employees and employers. Without insurance things just don't move. But the legality of doing that, in a manner where the subsiduaries retain enough capital to remain viable general insurers, when the parent company is insolvent strikes me as dicy.
> In Canada we have the CHMC that is largely self-sustaining (I'm not sure what they get, if anything). If you put down 25% (this might have recently dropped to 20%, I haven't used them for a while) they don't get involved. The mortgage is a purely private transaction between you and the bank. Below that they charge a one-time insurance fee depending on how much downpayment you provide. The minimum down is 5%, the maximum insurance fee is 3% I think (it's been a really long time since I've had to worry about that).
There was a brief window a couple years back where it had been lowered to 0% down (and the maximum length was 40 years, rather than the 25 years). But wiser heads prevailed and that got rolled back before we ended up with a mess like yours.
It isn't perfect, and you can still end up "upside-down". You can still get some fraud, and some preditory sellers (the usually package it as "rent to own" though, not as a real mortgage). But you don't get much in the way of defaulting on the second payment because somebody has to come up with that extra 3% if you are doing higgery-jiggery with the 5% down.
Of course we also tend to have far more conservative banks/trusts than state-side.
> Equity investments made by The Fed are clearly unlawful under The Federal Reserve Act.
I thought that was the reason for the convoluted "prefered" shares (even though they work a hell of a lot like common stock)?
Amen. I've been wondering this every since I heard the head of the British banks APOLOGIZE in front of God and everybody. What is wrong with the banks? or Wallstreet? "I'm so very sorry" would go a LOOOOOT further toward regaining trust than all this denial.
I keep hearing respected people say Obama isn't getting people to trust business again. Well, I don't think it is up to OBAMA to restore that trust since he didn't break it. The BUSINESS people did and they need to cowboy up and say to the American people as much, and as often as possible "MEA CULPA" we have learned.
It's SO frustrating.
wv=idess "I dess not understand it at all!"
Grog,
Several problems exist with the current situation.
1) The people who are on the Boards of Directors of these banks are idiots. I can think of much harsher adjectives for them and so can you. They have got to go.
2) These banks hold ALOT of toxic debt and have to be divested of that debt.
3) The fundamental manner in which these banks have gone about their business has to change. They must be reorganized, and broken up into smaller units. Why? Because anyone whose rich enough to buy Shittybank as it exists right now (bloated financial corpse) wouldn't want Shittybank. As a series of much smaller banks, people might want t buy some stocks in those, especially if they've been made over so they are in no way similar to Shittybank.
4) The only entity that has access to the kid of capital needed to do this is-the government. They're not the best at what they need to do here, but they're the only ones large enough and willing to do it.
This is sa short term strategy. Sweden did in the the 80's and it worked. Japan did it in the early 2000's and it worked. The economic meltdown we're now in most closely resembles what happened to the Japanese, so it stands to reason that a similar model might work in getting us out of this mess.
I know Republicans are against nationalization of principle. But your principles didn't work.Reagan implemented your unregulated free market in 1980 and it's been sustained for almost 30 years now-and have a look at it. It's fucked up. It doesn't work. It's falling to pieces.
I hate to be so harsh with someone I actually like. No offense is intended, I'm just trying to convey an uncomfortable truth which I think your party is going to have to face up to. We tried your system, and it failed. The reasonable solution is therefore not to blindly insist that the system has to work because you personally like the ideology behind it and it makes for snappy slogans. We're in a hole, and the sensible thing to do is to stop digging in deeper with the insistence that the way out is down.
You wnat to know why even Republicans are embracing nationalization? It's because it works. It's ugly. It violates all fo your principles. It does not mesh with conservative ideology. And if ideology were enough to accomplish things in the real world, we'd have found WMD in Iraq.
Sadly, you can't just wish things into reality.
@Cottage 14:
Americanize? I'm sure it'd sell.
Reminds me of one of my favorite songs from RATM:
No Shelter:
American eyes, American eyes,
View the world from American eyes,
Bury the past, rob us blind,
leave nothing behind
Incidentally this song is about rapacious commercialism which seems about par with the mindset that leads you into things like Gramm-Leach-Bliley and CFMA.
fred said...
We actually made money when we did this last time (in the RTC).
Not really, unless you count a net loss to taxpayers of approximately $124 billion dollars by the end of 1999 as a profit.
http://www.fdic.gov/bank/analytical/banking/2000dec/brv13n2_2.pdf
I was reading about the upcoming bankruptcy of Peanut Corporation of America the other day - one of the assets that will be part of the settlement is a $1 million insurance policy against recalls.
And who is that policy with?
None other than AIG.
@GROG:
I don't think the government has any business running a private enterprise that should have maximization of profits as its main objective.
WHY should a bank have maximization of profits as its main objective?
It is the job of the government to do those things that we as a people do not want done for a profit motive; such as licensing doctors or inspecting buildings for safety, or providing police protection.
The reason we don't want those things done at a profit is that they have too much power for corruption. Profit driven enterprises cut costs, cut corners, and charge customers whatever they can get away with; they engineer pricing to maximize profits.
It seems reasonable to me, perhaps we don't want routine banking done for a profit motive either. Clearly, routine lending and banking has become so deregulated it puts our economy in danger; bankers can no longer survive on a meager 5-10% differential between paying savings account interest and their earned loan interest.
What makes us think they [the government] will do a good job of running our banks?
First, they are not talking about running them permanently, just long enough to figure out if any private enterprise wants to buy them.
Second, in this case it doesn't make a difference if they do a good job or an efficient job, the fact is the job needs to be done. As Bill Maher recently said, we'd all be pretty happy if CitiBank were run as well as the post office.
Third, the government is not nearly as inefficient as most people believe. My best friend has been a civil servant for the US Govt for twenty-five years; I've been a corporate consultant that long, and guess what? Just about equal levels of industriousness, waste, fraud and abuse in both enterprises.
At the top of both are people earning far more than they contribute because they have inside buddy-tracks to cushy jobs that don't require anything but some vague "vision" or "leadership."
Obama's plan is not permanent nationalization, but perhaps that wouldn't be a bad thing. It would save us money in the long run; a bank that was managed strictly to break even, and paid all surpluses out as interest on deposits, with transparency of all financial transactions -- sounds like free checking and more than 0.25% annual interest on savings to me. Sounds like somebody making car and boat loans to viable borrowers.
How do you know the government can't run a local bank? It runs the post office, and letters get where they are going for a pittance. Just yesterday I mailed a signed contract to Italy for 94 cents. Of course I could have sent it by FedEx, a profit-driven organization, for $27.95, but the letters arrive just fine.
fred,
conjure bag over on Calculated Risk called the worldwide depression LAST MONTH. Get off it already -- that's last month's news.
Chris Rich,
oh, they're well aware. Over on Calculated risk, they're busy getting drunk, and wondering whether China will be communist at the end of this depression, and how many Western Democracies will turn fascistic before the end of this. Oh, and exactly when will someone get the balls to nuke Tel Aviv (pray oil goes up!)
smoking aces,
to be technical, being against affirmative action probably makes you a colorblind racist -- where you say you are against being discriminated against, despite the fact that affirmative action does not lead to manifestly better outcomes for the blacks it is supposed to help.
Waah Waah victim complex "discrimination is bad, so don't discriminate against me"
Check out Dr. Bonilla-Silva's work on the subject, it's quite enlightening.
Besides, we live in a systematically racist society. We've all absorbed that to a greater or lesser extent. You either deal with reality, or you don't. Most honest people come to terms with "I do bad things that I don't mean to do" -- and then get down to pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.
sorry folks for feeding the troll. hope yinz learned something
grog,
noaa does a damn fine job, so does the usgs, and I'm in general fairly impressed with DARPA.
so yeah, the guvmint does a good job.
You only need to fire the folks at the top, anyhow, they were the ones responsible for the stupidity.
Nate is unaware of the fundamental reality here, however. Obama is the cat fighting cornered caged rats.
He's procrastinating because at least one of the banks has threatened his daughters. [no, I don't KNOW this. but I've got credible reasons for thinking this is true -- some people would rather crash the entire world than take a paycut (AIG's managers, for instance)].
@akailaughingman:
Hard to tell who's the troll, you over-generalize. We are not all racist to "some extent", racism implies discrimination based on race, not simple recognition of a person's race.
People that do not discriminate based on race are not racist to any extent; racism is defined by actions alone.
In psychology we call your statement a "projection," it is an assumption that other people think just like you. For example, cheapskates often think others are trying to chisel them or cut corners or get away cheap, because "that is what people do," and in their view, anybody that doesn't is a fool.
Of course it isn't true, most people don't care nearly as much about money as the cheapskates and have no clue as to why they are such jerks.
You should not assume that because you can't avoid or control racism in yourself that everybody has the same mental disease as you. They don't, not even "to some extent." Consider yourself special.
tony c,
gotta disagree with you there. we do want banking done for a profit. commercial paper should go out and be priced to market.
what makes problems is when consumer banking needs to be done to a higher and higher profit standard.
this is why hedge funds, who demand growth in all industries, must be strangled to death.
Why should public opinion determine what we do with the banks. We are not a nation of economists. We should let the experts decide
tony c,
in psychology, we have the IAT.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/
Well, that's what we in experimental psychology have.
I agree, it is important to control or work to counteract our racist tendencies. But if you grew up in a racist society -- and not all are, then you've absorbed some of it, and it will influence how you react to things. You can overlay other tendencies on top of what you grew up with, but I would think that it would be impossible to treat everyone equally. If it isn't impossible, well, maybe Jesus did it. I don't claim to be Jesus, and I would be inherently suspicious of anyone who does.
@aka:
Associative tests are not racism, racism is hatred of another race, a belief that others are inferior due to race, or actions taken against others because of race. Read the dictionary.
Associative tests measure the strength of associations; those do not necessarily correspond to belief, or hatred and do not predict actions.
In some extreme, Greenwald's test probably do measure racism, but minor differences in response time for black vs. white faces can have a dozen explanations. Skin color is a prominent feature, and extracting facial features for recognition of a black face may employ different structures than those for white faces; not surprising if somebody is raised in culture where the white face recognition is exercised 20 times more often than black face recognition. Delays in employing some infrequently used neural cluster are not indicative of racism.
Further, I am capable of recognizing the reality that blacks in America are more likely to become incarcerated or to live in poverty. The brain is designed to produce such associations, and these are true ones backed up by statistical studies. They happen to be negative, and resolving conflicting associations takes mental time. The fact that negative associations exist and can be measured does not indicate any belief about race superiority or inferiority, it reflects a functioning pattern matching brain and nothing else.
Racism is an expressed belief or emotion or action that can be shown to be based on race. Racism is not revealed by a brain finding a factual correlation between skin color and poverty or imprisonment or some other life circumstance. Inventing such a correlation reveals racism; noticing it does not.
tony,
let's not argue semantics:
racism (def 2): Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
There are of course different levels of racism, everything from "positive racism" where one thinks better of someone for being of a different race, to the people responsible for forcing a retarded black girl to eat shit.
Facial recognition tracks down to the same brain region, regardless of whether you're talking black faces or white faces. It's a higher level structure than simple visual analysis, and isn't particularly dependent on high frequencies.
Oddly enough, you can run the same IAT on people raised in predominantly black neighborhoods in American and find the same conclusions (I'm actually pulling this specific stat out of my ass, but I'm basing it off other studies that show blacks carrying an implicit negative association to other blacks -- I seem to remember this being more amygdala research -- if you're really interested, I WILL look this up!).
stereotyping is when the generalization that "more blacks are poor" or "wind up in prison" becomes this particular black person is ...
Humans are remarkably adept at inventing correlations. isn't that what the rorschadt test is all about?
@aka:
I am a scientist and words matter; so arguing semantics is job #1. What do we mean by racism?
To me and to most americans, racism means a measurably negative outcome based on the color of somebody's skin.
Racism is not the ability to distinguish whites from blacks, or a delay in associating positive words with black faces. I don't deny the fact of racism or that it is a problem for non-caucasians in the USA; in fact for anybody that recognizes the problems of racism, I would expect them to have delays in associating those positive words with black faces: Not because they are racist, but because the skin tone triggers their associative networks of what problems blacks are facing, and those networks are not triggered when looking at white faces.
The delay doesn't mean they are racist or prejudiced or are discriminating against blacks; it means they recognize a person's race, that recognition causes neurons to fire related to problems that concern them, and now there is a conflict between those troubling neurons and the ones firing because of some positive input also on the screen. A delay ensues while the mind sorts this out. That is not discrimination, that is not racism, that extra hundred milliseconds does not constitute discriminating against somebody because of their race or prejudice against somebody because of their race.
Tony C.,
Read Black Wealth White Wealth. It's a good book, and it documents how much of the wealth that white Americans have is based on racist policies.
I grok what you mean about disliking that experiment. Do I need to grab the other experiments, where I can show that both whites and blacks react with more hypervigilance to black faces than to white ones? Does that seem like a way to actually figure out how much racism is affecting people?
Because from my perspective, that discrepancy probably means how many black people get shot by cops.
Systemic racism means that we absorb things like "blacks are poor" without bothering to learn "blacks are poor because racist America made them that way".
;-)
[also, can you do me a favor and use akai not aka as a nick for me? hate to ask, but it feels weird to see those three letters used together. words matter, and all that? okay. I feel silly now. ]
I'd feel worse about derailing the comments section, except that most people have moved on.
@akai:
Speaking of racism, what did you mean when you stated: "Oh, and exactly when will someone get the balls to nuke Tel Aviv?" I found that to be be a rather prejudiced comment.
akailaughingman said...
gotta disagree with you there. we do want. . . .
Who is this 'we'?
Is it the royal 'we', where you are projecting YOUR philosophy as the philosophy everyone else has?
@akai:
Sorry, I thought it was "AKA I Laughing Man." AKA meaning "Also Known As," an alias in criminal law.
Read Black Wealth White Wealth.
Usually when counterparties begin to suggest I need to be educated, I take that as them saying tbey are smarter than me. I will note I have two post-graduate degrees and I am a published academic in multiple peer-reviewed journals. I have done serious sociological research, and my sister is a published sociologist that has presented on racial differences in abuse and crime.
it documents how much of the wealth that white Americans have is based on racist policies.
A lot. My family did not, every one of my grandparents was a dirt poor immigrant to New York City, each from a different country.
But for the sake of argument, the sins of my parents and ancestors are not my sins, and I do not owe reparations.
I grok what you mean about disliking that experiment. Do I need to grab the other experiments, where I can show that both whites and blacks react with more hypervigilance to black faces than to white ones?
Apparently you don't grok what I dislike about that experiment.
Let me tell you about two revealing experiments in experimental psychology, neither about race. I wish I had thought of them:
Iced Coffee, Hot Coffee:
A researcher recruits student volunteers to see if their assessment of faces, via photographs of people they don't know, can tell us anything about the actual personalities of the people photographed.
The researcher is purposely late to the experimental room and is carrying books and coffee. She hands the student the coffee so she can unlock the door, lets the student in, gives them the test, and waits outside.
In the test, the student rates expressionless faces on various personality characteristics; warmth, friendliness, managerial skill, talent with numbers, etc.
The kicker: In half the experiments, the coffee handed to the student is iced coffee, and in half, the coffee is hot.
That's it. The students that hold iced coffee rate faces more negatively than those that held hot coffee. They rate people as cold, withdrawn, strict, over-analytical, etc. Warm coffee holders literally rate people as warmer, and in general as friendlier, funnier, and better friends.
Next up: Backpack vs. Briefcase:
Same research scientist: Recruits are asked to take a test on financial savvy. They take this test in a room with two desks, and the room is carefully arranged to be identical for each student with one difference: For half the students, the spare desk has a backpack on it, for the other half, the spare desk has an expensive briefcase.
Students in the room with the briefcase perform better on the financial savvy test than students taking the identical test in the presence of a briefcase, and the difference is statistically significant.
So, do these experiments mean that students harbor unknown prejudices against backpacks?
NO. What these and several other experiments show is how human recognition works in parallel. At a sub-conscious level neurons are excited by everything they recognize in an environment, and increase their axon potential. Other neurons respond to this in a network cascade, but this doesn't rise to the level of conscious thought.
Nevertheless, because the cold coffee probably briefly did rise to the level of conscious thought, all the associations to "cold" are primed to fire, so when words or personality traits are considered, "cold" associations have a head start. In the absence of any additional information, the brain seizes on this entirely bogus bullshit and assigns expressionless faces personality traits based on nothing but irrelevant recent experience: They just held some cold coffee, so this woman must be a cold calculating bitch. If they just held warm coffee, the exact same woman looks like grandma offering hugs and just-baked cookies.
The same thing with the briefcase. It primes a network of business-think, banking, or just memories completely different than the network primed by the backpack.
The influence of sub-conscious recognition is everywhere; the same researcher shows difference in identical tests based on room color, or a wall picture of a sailboat vs. a glass-tower bank. All with dozens of students and to statistical significance, and their grades are known and taken into account.
So no, hyper-vigilance towards blacks does not seem like a way to parse out racism to me. Black faces trigger a network in the mind that is different than the network triggered by white faces.
I haven't seen this experiment done; but I imagine hyper-vigilance is exhibited if we show white faces with scars, or tattoos, or disfigurements. Would that be racism against whites?
No, it would mean the faces trigger reality-based correlations of crime, prison, and violence, and with zero other information, we are hyper-vigilant in the presence of danger.
Due to racism in the past, blacks have a greater level of poverty, and regardless of skin color (as is shown by studies in other countries) poverty produces desperation which produces crime, severely shortened lifespans that discount the value of higher education and encourage earlier pregnancy, drug use, and greater frequency of violence (such as spousal or child abuse) and acceptance of violence as a strategy for obtaining resources.
Racism is not recognizing that these correlations exist at either the conscious or sub-conscious level. Greenwald and others measure the time it takes to overcome the false priming of the negative network of associations triggered by the visual of a black face.
So yes, there is an implied association that is statistically valid and overcoming it takes a few milliseconds, but so what? That isn't racism, it is the normal functioning of the human brain.
The more a person is aware of the negatives correlated with being black in America, the stronger these networks will be, and the longer it will take to overcome them. The fewer positive examples of blacks in one's mind, the stronger these will be.
Racism is not awareness of racial differences, it is attributing these correlations to the wrong thing. It is assuming or reversing cause and effect. Racism is leaping to the false belief that skin color is the cause crime, or drug use, or violence, and therefore blacks are inferior to whites.
Systemic racism means that we absorb things like "blacks are poor" without bothering to learn "blacks are poor because racist America made them that way".
You have to be careful of your words. I "absorb" that blacks are poor because statistically speaking they are poor. Do you deny this? In 2007 (census bureau stats) 8% of white families lived below the poverty line vs 22% of black families.
For 15-24 year old heads of households, 25% of white families and 48% of black families.
Anybody in the USA that doesn't "absorb" this is a moron. It is possible to "absorb" this, and have your brain prime a network of associations to poverty and the many ills of poverty-stricken neighborhoods when we see a black face, without being a racist.
By that I mean, return to the definition: The associations are grounded in facts, and having them just means a person is at least minimally observant and aware. Having the associations does not mean the person believes other races are inferior, or acts negatively toward other races in any way. Racism (as a mental condition) is a belief that race is the inherent cause of inferiority, while the real culprit is poverty. Racism (as an act) is taking negative action against somebody because they believe their race makes them different and inferior or less deserving.
I will agree that racists have much stronger negative association networks, and we can expect them to have significant delays in overcoming strongly firing negative associations. But I refuse to agree that implicit associations, which Greenwald measures, then further imply racism or belief that race is the cause of the negative associations.
Racism is not a spectrum disorder, it is defined by expressed belief or acts upon that belief.
I refuse to define racism down to the point where every functional brain in the country or on the planet is racist. It is an idiotic exercise that robs the word of all meaning.
polls_apart,
that sentence is connected to the earlier one about Calculated Risk. The bubble economy in Iran and Saudi Arabia was really bad. Now, with oil prices cratering, well, every day brings us closer to the day that Tel Aviv gets nuked. Israel could do better than she has been doing about being good to her neighbors.
And I have relatives in Tel Aviv. ;-)
the darker the world looks, the more one must open one's eyes.
Mike in Maryland,
by we, I mean "this would be a good idea if America did it properly" -- if that's projection, i'd better cop to it! Not meaning to imply that anyone else in the conversation would agree with me, sans argument.
tony c.,
You seem strangely confident for a sociologist that our heuristics are at all accurate. I remember a study showing that TV watching correlated with the watcher's ideas of how many doctors there were in the US Population. We live in a heavily propagandized society -- if the IAT is doing a good job of measuring how the propaganda is changing, that in of itself would be interesting, I think. Just running with your own idea ;-)
Why, aren't you a huffy little thing? [this is me being condescending. I don't do subtlety, as you might notice] I recommend one nice book, and you think I'm calling you dumb! Or ignorant, or something...
I think it means I attend more free lunches than you -- and that these free lunches come with happy shiny lectures about Racial Research. I know a good book -- I recommend it because it makes some interesting conclusions -- it's not about you. And it's certainly not about me, because I didn't do the fucking research.
We can't all be experts in everything -- which is why, when you show an interest, I recommend based on what I think you might enjoy.
Did your family happen to get FHA loans prior to the 1970's? Mine did, which makes me someone who has inherited racist wealth from fundamentally racist policies. (and this isn't even getting into second order effects).
That Iced Coffee, Hot Coffee experiment is not universally applicable. It is a reaction to ambiguous, generally negatively associated "expressionless" faces, at least as you've described it. Psychologists, when they want a neutral face, use a 10% happy face, because people tend to see a purely expressionless face (i.e. slackly neutral. you can actually define this with the facial musculature.) as hostile.
It's perfectly fine for you to say that everything gets integrated, but I'm sure we can both agree that things are probably integrated at different rates. After all, recognizing that there is a "new stimulus" is very different than recognizing "new face" and happens at a different time.
I'd be fascinated to see if these changes in grades were mediated by emotional changes in people.
Is someone who is under orders to follow around black people in the liquor store racist? Let's say for the sake of argument that they acknowledge the inherent stupidity of the targeting.
I think your definition is overly strict (while I'll acknowledge that mine may be overly broad), as it would have a hard time with that person.
Humans do not make rational decisions under most circumstances.
@akai:
I am not a sociologist; I am a mathematician, statistician, and computer scientist. My sister is a sociologist and I socialize with them and read her papers and proposals and suggest statistical approaches that are sometimes used.
By "expressionless" I mean emotionally neutral; but I try to use terms laymen can understand because jargon confuses people.
I acknowledge that racism and racist governmental policy has created a difference in wealth in past generations, but I am not responsible for that and if I benefitted, it doesn't make me a racist. Society as a whole does have a responsibility to mitigate the measurable effects of past discrimination, but those effects become more difficult to measure with every generation. We certainly do not owe reparations or special treatment to people that are not the victims of those policies. What we do owe is equal education, access to courts, police protection, nutrition, education, health care and access to other public facilities, infrastructure maintenance and other public benefits.
Other than that, I don't detect any coherent argument in your post. I can't tell if a person that follows blacks in a store is a racist. What does that tell us about his belief system? He is assisting in a racist act; it may even be an illegal act, but in your scenario as described I suspect the worker is just a coward afraid of losing his paycheck, and would be equally compliant in following around teenage goths, fat people or old people. It seems very likely in your scenario the person that orders this activity is a racist, that is who made the decision to target patrons based on skin color.
What leads you to believe that I think our heuristics are accurate? I don't, in fact if you read my post, it should be apparent I don't: They are often irrelevant. In the case of correlating race with poverty, they are backed up by more statistical studies than you can read in a lifetime. And although the percentages are bound to be wrong the ideas are correct. Most people may not realize that black families are in poverty at 2-3 times the rate of white families; but they do get the direction of that trend correct to some degree. To the nearest percentage point, I doubt anybody in this country honestly thinks a greater percentage of whites are in poverty than the percentage of blacks in poverty.
My definition of racism comes from the dictionary; yours comes from over-interpreting IAT results that have perfectly valid alternative explanations based in the theory of the mind.
And you are also wrong about the experiments I described, they are too universally applicable; the entire primed network theory is talking about a fundamental mechanism of how the human mind works and processes data. These (and other) examples prove it, and put the lie to the IAT; it isn't measuring racism at all, unless you redefine racism.
And that is what you have done.
tony c.,
great. emotionally neutral is a negatively associated construct in the human mind. (drop me the article, if they're actually using 10% happy faces, then I'll withdraw this assertion). But it's only got a mild association (aka it isn't 100% angry faces). Something that is inherently "prone to interpretation"... in this case, being relatively low valence, is bound to have different results than less ambiguous stimuli. [jargon's fine. I'm just thinking that the person running the study is relatively unskilled in the study of emotion and arousal.]
If, say, I was looking at reaction time for a snake jumping in your face, I would wager that the color of the room would effect your responses differently, or to a different degree, than an experiment about mathematics. If nothing else, the panic response is a quick response, which may not provide enough time for correlative association of things around the snake.
If we owe that much, and it's reasonable to say that we do, what is the difference between sending that money back as "payment in kind" versus "reparations"? Nutrition and Education in particular cost a LOT of money...
How confident are you that the poverty statistics are accurately measuring the underground economy?
It's ironic that you're talking about implicit social cognition, and simultaneously criticizing one of the tools that was developed to quantify it. ;-)
oh, and looking at the wikipedia entry, it seems this is a tool whose usefulness is still being debated. good to know!
@akai:
The difference to me is that reparations are the same mistake as the racist thinking that caused the damage; some blacks (or hispanics, or asians) are not in poverty or suffering from lasting damage caused by racism. The cure is not to make a racially motivated payoff out of some ancestral guilt, it is inherently unfair.
The cure is to stop the continuing legacy of damage by demanding equal, merit-based opportunity going forward regardless of income level. Just because the money is the same doesn't mean the outcome of spending it is the same.
I am not talking about socialism, I am a capitalist. Nevertheless, I think the govt has roles to play and one of those is ensuring citizens have safe and uniformly good education paid for by taxes, through at least four years of college. Another is equally safe neighborhoods regardless of income level.
tony,
here's a different nickel.
How about reparations that go to the community, instead of to each and every black person. That allows us to more directly target the problem to the lower performing people.
When blacks have 15% of the wealth of whites, on average -- I think we can safely say that MOST blacks have suffered and continue to suffer damage based on racism. When we further understand that our current society acts to preserve this wealth differential (which has direct correlations to social mobility, education, suburbanization, etc.)... It almost seems easier to give out reparations and be done with it!
Besides, how different is a reparation from "we're going to fix your schooling", where that necessitates a wealth transfer to low income children?
70% of American Jobs are gotten by "who you know" not "what you know". If you can find a way to make America merit-based... I wish you luck! [this is one of the reasons why affirmative action hasn't led to better outcomes]
@akai:
Frankly I don't trust people to spend money wisely. Not talking about blacks at all, just the average American: If you give them $50,000 they will blow it on non-investment spending. They will buy a boat, take a trip, buy an SUV, whatever.
My daughter, an otherwise educated and intelligent person, inherited $180,000 from a relative on her mother's side, and immediately blew about $30,000 of it on stuff she later regretted. Like trading in her two-year old car for a car costing $15,000 more; like buying a $600 purse she could not previously afford, like going to New York to visit a high school friend for a week.
These are not investments. To correct racism, correct poverty. A one time payment is unlikely to correct poverty, it is just a windfall, and for some, undeserved.
The better approach is to concentrate investment in "machines" that produce reliable "profits." The "machines" are schools, law enforcement for safety, infrastructure and public transportation to allow work, and enough food welfare to prevent desperation.
The "profits" are citizens of all races with the education and training or skills necessary to make a lifetime of economic contributions, and get paid for them, so they can pay taxes and perpetuate this virtuous cycle.
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