Former White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer slammed a “petty” Barack Obama and his “childish” staff last night for engaging in the Limbaugh Strategy. In the same breath as he piously decried childishness, Fleischer used a Limbaugh trademark – referring to the Democratic Party as the “Democrat” Party.
On David Shuster’s MSNBC show, Fleischer did not answer repeated and pointed questions about whether hoping Obama fails is “unpatriotic.” The infamous Bush servant, who once used the White House podium to thuggishly lecture Bill Maher and all Americans on patriotism – “all Americans... need to watch what they say, watch what they do” – described Limbaugh as “a conservative radio host, a very popular one, and I like him.”
Here’s the transcript of the initial exchange (the whole weaselly video is worth watching):Shuster: When Rush says that all Republicans want the President to fail, Limbaugh’s wrong, right?
Fleischer: Well, David, I think this entire issue is nothing but ridiculous. You know, I’m reminded of a President, who, in his inaugural address said the following: “we come to proclaim an end to the petty grievances and... recriminations... that... have strangled our politics.” He cited Scripture and he said, “the time has come to set aside childish things.” Well, Barack Obama’s Chief of Staff is acting childish, and so is everybody else in the Democrat Party who is picking this ridiculous fight.
Fleischer also was an instrumental part of the organized, funded "Freedom's Watch" effort to portray all Democrats as unpatriotic in the aftermath of the MoveOn “BetrayUs” ad. But, let’s not go down the Fleischer road. He’s more or less irrelevant. In an era when there has been a lot of talk about mutual respect, it is striking that a huge number of Republicans continue to go out of their way to use the epithet “Democrat Party” rather than the party’s actual name, the Democratic Party.
Out of curiosity, I googled the terms “Democrat Party” and “Democratic Party” on a bunch of political websites, particularly right-leaning ones. In Limbaugh's case, there were 740 hits for "Democrat Party" site:rushlimbaugh.com, and 219 for "Democratic Party," for a Democrat/Democratic percentage of 337.90%. By comparison, ours was 102 "Democrat"s and 897 "Democratic"s. This is not a scientific study, of course, it's more an overall impression. It wouldn't be worth anybody's time to read every entry and comment that has ever been written or published on these sites, and obviously those google returns are substantially lower than the actual number of times the term has been used.
Even the Limbaugh/FiveThirtyEight comparison appears wildly closer than reality. Neither Nate nor I have ever used "Democrat Party"; that term is exclusively used as an epithet by conservatives in our Wild West comments section. Meanwhile, any listener knows Limbaugh's real ratio is far higher than 3.4-to-1. He occasionally messes up and says "Democratic." He used "Democrat" nine times in his CPAC speech, but slipped up and used "Democratic" once.
Those caveats aside, I believe the table is useful for a global impression. Site -rat/-ratic%
rushlimbaugh.com 337.9%
michellemalkin.com 108.5%
hannity.com 60.3%
littlegreenfootballs.com 52.6%
thenextright.com 41.4%
redstate.com 39.0%
townhall.com 22.5%
freerepublic.com 21.2%
realclearpolitics.com 14.3%
worldnetdaily.com 13.2%
fivethirtyeight.com 11.3%
dailykos.com 5.8%
I’ve been wanting to write about this for awhile. During my On the Road trip, in my first McCain office stop in Reno, I interviewed a University of Nevada student volunteer named Brian Neppl about the McCain field office there. He was explaining something, referred to the “Democratic Party,” paused, apologized, and corrected himself: “Democrat Party.” What caught my attention was the un-self-consciousness with which he did it. Republicans, who have decades of think-tank fueled training in the precise use of words (think: Frank Luntz) seem to have a specific design.
The intent seems to be twofold: First, it seems to be an attempt at branding/labeling/controlling the way language sounds in an audience’s ears. Democrat apparently sounds "worse" than Democratic, and it's also an attempt to separate the Democratic Party from small-d democratic, a popular American concept. If such a tactic nets votes, it’s objectively justifiable. Second, it’s designed to get under the skins of Democrats. From a Republican perspective, both seem to be independently important reasons to standardize the epithet.
As to the first goal, it’s unclear whether this could work, or whether, if it did, there would be any meaningful result that would ostensibly help further Republican fortunes at the ballot box. I’m open to hearing what this might be.
Musing out loud, if a critical building block in the Republican ideological persuasion strategy is first to argue that the media has a liberal bias, and media insists out of accuracy in using “Democratic” while actual Republican officeholders Mitch McConnell, Eric Cantor, George Bush, et. al. use “Democrat,” then perhaps it subtly seems like the media is taking sides by choosing the correct term. Thus, the "liberal media" charge in turn has more merit, and that premise is critical in Republican argument given all the decades of incredible energy dedicated to that claim.
Another thought is that it’s a form of Josh Marshall’s “Bitch-Slap Theory” of politics that he formed in the Swiftboat context of the 2004 presidential campaign. Republicans “proved” John Kerry wasn’t tough enough to fight the War on Terror if he wasn’t tough enough to fight back against his smearers. So, Republicans may think the terminology it’s a form of baiting Democrats: ignore it and you’re letting the playground bully have his way with you, react to it and you’re reacting to something that has no actual harm associated with it. Dems look weak either way.
(It’s worth pointing out that one reason folks like Fleischer are fighting back with such vehemence is that the Limbaugh Strategy – specifically, requesting of other Republicans who are uniformly quaking in fear to stand up to Limbaugh’s comments – is the Bitch-Slap Theory turned on them. How tough can Republicans really be if they can’t stand up to the radio guy? Michael Steele is going to stand up to Al Qaeda?)
As for the second goal, the non-tactical, end-in-itself enjoyment of antagonizing Democrats, to use Fleischer’s term, is pure, uncut childishness. Moreover, it’s just boring. Newsflash – human beings have figured out a lot of ways to antagonize other human beings with pejoratives. It’s like Palin-as-hockey agitator, no great skill involved (and of course "Democrat Party" is a Palin staple). It’s literally the most basic childhood taunt – taking someone’s real name, and calling them something else to provoke a reaction. It's the single-celled amoeba of verbal harassment. It’s unmistakable that much of the term’s use involves an attempt at agitation.
Again, objectively, there’s nothing wrong with Republicans methodically doing this – refusing the basic respect of allowing the Democratic Party its own name. They can elect their own behavior all they want; it’s a free country. Democrats may choose a reflexive reaction, but nobody "makes" you react, you have responsibility for how you react.
On the flip side of the coin, denying another person or group basic respect means that once the epithet escapes a Republican’s lips, he or she can’t complain when no respect is returned. Some Democrats aren’t bothered. Their perspective is that the very nature of such a tiny, repetitive jab, like a sibling flicking you on the shoulder, is that it pales in comparison with the constellation of behaviors that create actual wounds.
However, some Democrats find it to be a threshold issue in a conversation. It's irrelevant whether it wounds; it's a communication signal. If your behavior choice is a playground tactic, why should my behavior choice be to listen to what you say in whatever else is coming out of your mouth? You won’t agree to my name. I am supposed to take anything you say seriously? Couples therapists know a thing or two about this one. Respect is a threshold condition for listening.
If Republicans genuinely want Democrats to listen to their policy ideas, they shouldn't use the term because it's counterproductive. For example, when I hear the term, nothing else matters that comes out of that person's mouth. That Republican has failed the threshold bad faith test, and who cares what they say?
By the same token, if Republicans don't care if Democrats listen to them, which may indeed be the case for many, they don't have to care about this sort of symbolic signal-sending. In last summer's Republican National Convention party platform meeting, Republicans changed "Democrat Party" (ensconced in the official platform in 1996) to "Democratic Party." Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour grudgingly admitted that probably they shouldn't act like kids and instead use the real term, "at least in writing."
While the terminology is trivial in some ways, the same way that emphasis of Obama's middle name is trivial (it is his name), there is a serious policy extension of the tactic. This threshold issue of withholding basic respect underlies historical Republican demonization of gays, blacks, immigrants, and other groups. Republicans may protest that conclusion, but think of Limbaugh's "Halfrican," or try talking to an Arab-American while saying everything normally and rationally except always calling Barack Obama: Barack Hussein Obama. Do you think the rest of whatever else you say will be heard? When Sean Hannity uses "Hussein," over and over, he is not trying to convince an undecided to adopt his viewpoint, and certainly not persuade an Obama supporter to come around to his way of thinking. He's speaking to the home crowd, his intent is to use the word as a weapon.
One of the reasons the "childish" party of Fleischer and Limbaugh is having such a tough time in the wilderness is they've done a too-clever-by-half job figuring out how to systematically weaponize language. There's no referee. It's their right. It's also no great parlor trick, and you can go to any grade-school playground and find the same. The day Republicans work to signal good faith by policing their own house on basic respect in language will probably run parallel with the day we'll see the party reborn as an ideologically grownup force.
3.05.2009
“Democrat Party" Decrier Rips Admin for “Childish” Limbaugh Strategy
by Sean Quinn @ 8:45 AM...see also limbaugh, partisanship
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154 comments
They are doing the same thing calling Obama a Socialist. It is way past time we shoved this down their antisocialist throats.
I constantly refer to the GOP as the Unsocialized Gang Of Pirates and refer to Socialist as the opposite of Feral, and Feral as the same as Libertarian.
Since it frames much closer to reality there needs to be much wider use of these frames.
Anybody want to join the fun?
I believe is it perfectly acceptable to refuse to use an Official name when that name was chosen for misleading branding reasons and saying that name makes your opponent's brand stronger.
Now of course this wouldn't apply to the Democratic party as they date from the 1830's and the issues that gave rise to the name are long out of date, but if some new party of group coined a misleading name its fair game.
This is why I insist on using the term Religious Wrong to rob any implication of that group having a correct viewpoint.
All this nonsense about Obama failing and now whether it is unpatriotic is idicy. Like any of the Left wanted Bush to succeed!
Get off it, you hypocrites.
Nice post.
We need to keep tying them to Limbaugh - there strong response makes me know it is the right approach. Obama wins again - these guys a good!
Ari, methinks thou dost protest too much!
Sean, I have to admit, I was not at all on board with you with this one. Until I started reaching the end of the article. My two cents, though, is that there are those on the left as well who love to talk about Faux or Fixed news, Rethugs, etc. Frankly it has the same effect on me, though you are still right in that the schoolyard "gee I really wanna punch you in the face right now" reaction doesn't quite seem to get tickled by those cases.
Petekent - meknows thou dost protest too much.
I watched the Fleischer interview yesterday with the same combination of fascination and horror that one gets watching a train wreck. It was compelling, more so because Fleischer, the wingnut warrior, was actually a part of the worst administration in history, and he was proud of Bush's "achievements" in moving us towards totalitarianism and world-wide scorn and condemnation.
I believe Newt Gingrich was the first person who decided the name Democratic Party, which has been used for more than 150 years, was no longer the right one to use. That's when I decided his party was Rethuglican.
In any event, fascinating post.
In point of fact if you read Sinclair Lewis etc the original definition of Socialist was as the opposite of Feralist, or the more common Social Darwinist.
Because the idea was so commonly approved it was hijacked by the propagandist ideologies for Orwellian use, just as they claimed to be democratic, and people centered.
I am with nick on this one. I didn't think this post was that interesting or important untill the final conclusions. To that end the comments are pretty funny- as soon as I got to fred's misspelling of 'their' I knocked his opinion down a knotch in importance. As for written comments containing party names, I just use R or D and let the imagination fill in the blank.
Ahhh, umberto, paying attention to the important points in the posts aren't you?
R and D - isn't that research and development? Can't you spell the full names? Do you really think words don't matter?
You mis-spelled "notch" in your post, BTW. "Knotch" is not in my dictionary.
Of course, lost in all of this to many is that the whole Limbaugh contretemps is an actual strategy at the White House being employed to distract and draw attention away from the far more serious issues the country faces.
Both Rahm Emmanuel and the President's Press Sec'y have been pushing this for weeks and the complaint media has leapt up and filled the airwaves with it.
While all we have been talking about is Rush (which is very good for him), the President has committed to major misteps in foreign policy (snubbing the Brit's PM and clumsily approaching Russia about Iran) while retracting a campaign pledge not to combat earmakers while professing (falsely) to be all about fiscal responsibility.
Ovomit is not governing he is campaigning still. It seems it is all he is good for.
He paassively sits by and watches while the Democrat Party in Congress proposes a half trillion dollars of new domestic spending -- money that will be spent over the next six months and which is far in excess of what is needed or was origianlly planned. He call this "left over business" abdicating responsibility for his own gvoernment which will be charged with spending the money.
Everyone knows how much wasteful spending is in the Bill, inncluding some 8,000 to 9,000 earmarks. But Ovomit lacks the stones to stand up to his own party and is so disengaged as a leader that he will not oppose the very profligacy that he campaigned against.
It is no answer to say "Bush and GOP did it, now its our turn." It was either wrong then or not and if wrong then, it is wrong now.
This may be why the Democrat coalition is beginning to fall apart in the Senate: Russ Feingold and Evan Bayh have come out agaisnt the Omnibus Bill and Bob Nelson may be next.
Ovomit came to Washington promising to change the tone. Instead he has allowed his admistration to repeatedly attack private citizens and focus on boogey men like Rick Santelli, Jim Cramer and now Rush Limbaugh. Rather than elevating discourse Ovomit is lowering it and he is fiddling while American burns and not leading, but passively csitting back and allwoing Congress to run roughshod over his admiusntrartion -- or sio it would appear. He and pelosi have developped a wonderfuly unholy unallioance and hte whole thing make me sick!
Right on!
Just fyi, I (and many others) would be much more likely to read this site on a regular basis if you toned down the extreme liberal bent of it. I love the mathematical analysis, but your comments are sometimes insufferable. This is one of those times.
PeteKunt is sure clever.
I posted the unspellchecked version by mistake, so I will now post the pristine version for posterity . . . If I knew how to remove posts, I would!
Of course, lost in all of this to many is that the whole Limbaugh contretemps is an actual strategy at the White House being employed to distract and draw attention away from the far more serious issues the country faces.
Both Rahm Emmanuel and the President's Press Sec'y (along with numerous other within the government or close to it) have been pushing this for weeks and the complaint media has leapt up and filled the airwaves with it.
While all we have been talking about is Rush (which is very good for him), the President has committed two major missteps in foreign policy (snubbing the Brit's PM and clumsily approaching Russia about Iran) while retracting a campaign pledge to combat earmarks while professing (falsely) to be all about fiscal responsibility.
Ovomit is not governing; he is campaigning still. It seems it is all he is good for.
He passively sits by and watches while the Democrat Party in Congress proposes a half trillion dollars of new domestic spending -- money that will be spent over the next six months and which is far in excess of what is needed or was originally planned. He calls this "left over business" abdicating responsibility for his own government which will be charged with spending the money.
Everyone knows how much wasteful spending is in the Bill, including some 8,000 to 9,000 earmarks. But Ovomit lacks the stones to stand up to his own party and is so disengaged as a leader that he will not oppose the very profligacy that he campaigned against.
It is no answer to say "Bush and GOP did it, now it’s our turn." It was either wrong then or not and if wrong then, it is wrong now.
This may be why the Democrat coalition is beginning to fall apart in the Senate: Russ Feingold and Evan Bayh have come out against the Omnibus Bill and Bob Nelson may be next, if he is not already on record against it.
Ovomit came to Washington promising to change the tone. Instead he has allowed his administration to repeatedly attack private citizens and focus on boogey men like Rick Santelli, Jim Cramer and now Rush Limbaugh. Rather than elevating discourse Ovomit is lowering it and he is fiddling while American burns and not leading, but passively sitting back and allowing Congress to run roughshod over his administration -- or so it would appear. He and Pelosi have developed a wonderfully unholy alliance and the whole thing makes me sick!
Pete-
Throwing in Pelosi, who has yet to do anything truly to help the White House, just shows you are grasping at straws. Going after Limbaugh is dead on genius, he is a laughing stock on the left and noone that listens to the guy voted for Obama. Tying his controversial platform to all repubs is genius, you know it, that is why you protest so much.
I believe PeteKent is a walking, talking example of the respect threshold (or lack thereof) in action.
Thank you, sir, for providing such an illustrative example of someone to whom we should thus pay absolutely no attention.
Where did Nate's stock market post go?
Of course, STepper comes in a close second, it seems.
Who's more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows?
I wanted Bush to succeed at having the Iraqis welcome us as liberators so we could get the hell out.
I wanted Bush to succeed at bringing peace to the Middle East.
I wanted Bush to succeed at finding and destroying WMD's he said were there.
I wanted Bush to succeed at being a uniter, not a divider.
I wanted Bush to succeed at being the Education President, and leaving no child behind.
I wanted Bush to succeed at developing clean alternative energy.
I wanted Bush to succeed at spreading freedom around the world.
I wanted Bush to succeed at having some humility.
I wanted "adults" to be in charge.
Those were his stated goals and positions.
I didn't want him to succeed at lying to and deceiving the American people, violating the Constitution, further enriching the wealthy at the expense of everyone else, postponing real environmental cleanup, trashing the economy, furthering intolerance and hatred, and killing over 100,000 innocent people in his mad rush to glory (never mind the number of human lives he helped ruin).
But then, he didn't promise to do THOSE things, did he?
Sean--nice piece. Familiar with the Confucian idea of the "rectification of names"? As mike B points out, there's a gray area when it comes to things like the "religious right", "moral majority", etc. But "Democrat Party" is just childish and disrespectful, especially when those who use the term turn around and talk about their "friends" on the other side. Friends don't call friends names.
Off the cuff, I thought of someone (other than Obama) who is highly opinionated yet maintains his dignity in a truly impressive way: Bill Moyers. Any suggestions for someone on the right who achieves that standard?
Pete, you're typing with your forehead again. You'll need that frontal lobe when you grow up.
The GOP is in panic mode and now have to attack as childlike behavoir linking the GOP to Limbaugh. It is obvious it is working like a charm.
It seems like maybe it`s time to stop it but the media won`t let it die, they are like a dog with a bone and won`t give up.
The point has been made, best for Gibbs to say why don`t you people in the press give it a rest.
It really is sad to see how politicians have to go on bended knee and apoligize to that fat hatemonger.
I really wish at least one republican had the guts to call him on his hate,
I'll admit Shuster held his own and didn't allow Ari the Liar to bait him much.
I wish they'd point out Rush entire first quote where he stated "We are being told that we have to hope he succeeds, that we have to bend over, grab the ankles, bend over forward, backward, whichever, because his father was black, because this is the first black president."
Seriously, ask those joker Republicans if they agree with the person they view as a leader in the Conservative movement on that one.
Give me a break. Rush is loud mouthed pig that will never learn to shut his fat trap. The guy is clearly a case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement
6. is interpersonally exploitative
7. lacks empathy
8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
The Limbaugh stuff is straight out of the Karl Rove playbook. Perhaps I'm supposed to grade on a curve (i.e. this stuff is not "as bad" as what Republicans said), but Obama promised (and I expected) better. Portraying the opposition as unpatriotic is wrong, no matter who does it.
Really? It's a strategy to say Democrat Party instead of Democratic Party? I thought they were just dumb!
@Nick - Umberto
I believe that there is a difference between Framing and name calling. The GOP knows this very well and uses it with more skill than the IQ of the actual poster children would suggest.
Democratic and Republican themselves reflect the political position on the quality of popular opinion.
George Lakoff did a good job delineating the outlook of Liberals and Conservatives. Using the strong father conservative imagery, the Gang Of Pirates, makes that father imagery illegitimate in a way that Rethuglicans does not.
Also there are still many Republicans who have good intentions (mostly rank & file)and Gang Of Pirates does not include them specifically, and can include some (Lieberman)who are not Republican.
This is not as subtle as Lakoff has attributed to Obama but then us bloggers would not get anywhere being that subtle.
BTW instead of Religious Right (or wrong) religious theocrats, or religious totalitarians (or both)frames the facts correctly without attacking fundamentalist beliefs themselves.
The problem that Pete Kent doesn't see is that all of this Limbaugh garbage is self-inflicted by the GOP. That's why Ari is so ionized about it, because he knows he can't stop his own party from self-destructing and wants people to look away while it happens.
This isn't some democrat plot to undermine the GOP. The only reason this is news is because Rush HAS taken over as the voice, if not leader, of the GOP. Any dissent with his views is met with legions of dittohead calls and faxes to the apostate who dares to challenge the great one. To date not a single member of the caucus has failed to grovel in response.
It's perfectly reasonable (albeit snarky) that democrats might ask whether Rush's influence is also leaking down to GOP policy-in effect making Rush the actual brain trust of the party.
For Obama the political calculus is simple. He ran on bringing a new era of politics to Washington and the GOP doesn't want to give him credit for delivering on it. Hence, he needs their reluctance to work with him to be due to something petty and silly, like Rush's minions, rather than to real policy differences or (God forbid) Obama's politics-as-usual governing style. So far the GOP is letting him run fast and far with this and it's undercutting their credibility in a HUGE way. They've allowed their party platform to become a talk radio rant. It's toxic.
Unless and until someone stands up to Rush, no one is going to take the Republican party (or their ideas) seriously.
Pete Kent said: "Rather than elevating discourse Ovomit is lowering it"
Pete, do the words "cognitive dissonance" mean anything to you. In what way does referring to someone as "Ovomit" elevate the discourse?
An old Rick Hertzberg article in the New Yorker addressing the same issue:
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/08/07/060807ta_talk_hertzberg
Pete Kent - there is a little trash can at the bottom of all your posts.
Please click on them.
It is hilarious that in a post about a "respect threshold", PeteKent proves Sean right. I can guarantee you that most people here immediately disregarded his comment once they saw the use of "Ovomit".
And, unfortunately for him, it completely overshadows the reasonable points he could have made in criticizing Obama. And that seems to be a problem for Republicans. Right now, there are plenty of substantive criticisms that could be argued about Obama. But when you use tactics like "Barack Hussein Obama", you will be written off by any reasonably impartial viewer. This tactic, then, seems counter productive. Plus, Obama has already shown that if the GOP wants to fight on that level, he will win.
Regarding the actual post, I never noticed the Democrat/Democratic usage. I'll pay more attention to it.
Let the Republic Party say what they want.
I respectfully suggest that David Shuster, and all other political talk show hosts, institute a rule that guests not be invited back to the show if they do not answer a single question they were asked by the interviewer. I understand that politicians appear on these shows because they believe they have something to gain by doing so. Quite often, what they hope to gain may be at odds with what the interviewer is hoping to gain (which, hopefully, is truthful answers to certain questions). Therefore you can't expect such guests to always answer every question without ever changing the topic. But in this video clip, I believe Ari Fleischer changed the subject of every single question that Shuster asked him. Why allow Fleischer back on this show ever again?
I feel like I live under a rock. Until reading this article this morning, I had never heard (or noticed) this form of slur (the shortened term for the democratic party). Is it really as widespread as this article indicates? Truly, I've never noticed it.
'Ovomit'? Give me strength.
I find people misnaming parties, individuals, movements, etc. very annoying. The whole 'Rethuglican' thing gets me on edge. In Britain, we have similar wits denouncing our ex Prime Minister as 'Tony BLIAR' which is just as irritating. My party, the Liberal Democrats, is constantly referred to by Gordon Brown as 'the Liberals' (which, to be fair, we were until 1987... but that's a long story), which gets under my skin as well. The only reason I can think Limbaugh is doing what he is that he's trying to tie the Democratic Party with Democrats, and less with democracy. That shows what an idiot he is, frankly.
Very, very true...
Other examples:
Card-check instead of Employee Free Choice Act (the official name of the bill!)
Pro-Death instead of Pro-Choice
Freedom Fries instead of French Fries
You can probably make hundreds of examples.
Ovomit
Just so you know, whatever argument you were trying to make did not get through because I quit reading at this point and, I suspect, so did a lot of other people. I expect you'll respond with "I don't care if you read it or not," but doesn't that make you just another noisy crazy guy, standing on a corner yelling at no one?
Am I bad for wanting to call them the Rushbuttlickin' party? Some of the more peurile among us should keep working on it until we find the perfect juvenile rejoinder.
Just fyi, I (and many others) would be much more likely to read this site on a regular basis if you toned down the extreme liberal bent of it.
IOW, "I'd read you a lot more if you'd go 'rah rah Republicans!' a lot more. Don't hold your breath.
Randy
The "Democrat Party" thing is absolutely real. It's the R's snide way of suggesting that the D's don't stand for democracy--which in itself is sort of Rovian/Gingrichian given that one could argue that the R's represent an oligarchic strain in US politics.
Of course, if you don't believe in the federal gov't at all, as many sore losers of the Civil War don't, anything beyond states' rights sounds wrong to you. Who needs voters when you've got good ol' boys?
I'm not so sure that the Democrats really should respond to this. There are some things in politics that are so petty that attempts to deal with them make you seem hypersensitive and whiny - this seems like one of them to me.
The use of Obama's middle name was intended to exploit racial and xenophobic sentiments, so that was a substantive issue. The Swift Boat issue was also substantive, and the Kerry campaign had a famously weak response to that. But this really seems like a petty thing to get worked up about, and I think it would do more harm than good to risk being seen as whiny.
this article is spot on. thank you.
"Let the Republic Party say what they want."
I'm not sure the Republicans would much mind being called the Republic Party. I've wondered whether it might be effective to call them the Publican Party and individual members Publicans. That publicans were ancient Roman tax collectors and public contractors sweetens the notion but it gets even better given that the word came to mean a tavernkeeper and was therefore by extension a slang term for a pimp. Yes, it would be stooping to their childish level but I'd love to see how they'd react to it.
The fundamental problem is that Democrat is a noun, Democratic is a verb, and Republican is both. By definition, Democrats have no way of turning the tactic on Republicans, which in itself makes Republican insistence on doing this childish.
That said, however, Democratic Party at least partly implies an inclusive and above-the-fray organization, whereas Republican Party has the negative connotation of "that group of capital-r Republicans who all think alike," so I can understand that many Republicans are irritated by this built-in disadvantage.
After all, for the last several decades the Democrats have taken advantage of the GOP becoming a philosophically "purer" entity by appropriating for themselves the image of moderation and pragmatism, regardless of whether it actually applied (and often it didn't). Calling it the Democrat Party is one small way of knocking Democrats off their high horse.
I'm sure there's also the element of most people associating America with being a democracy more strongly than with being a republic, even though it's both.
So in my view, this habit is a mix of taking the Democrats off their self-righteous pedestal (a good thing) and dragging them into the mud which the GOP has taken a disturbing liking to in recent years (a very, very bad thing).
I'd rather they just not do it and instead find other ways to act as a populist check on what is now the majority party. Unfortunately, the Republicans seem too preoccupied with their counterproductive bile-spewing.
As a side note, I've been known to say Democrat Party myself, but strictly out of laziness and a genuine belief that it rolls off the tongue better. I also don't care for either political party, so I sympathize with attempts to characterize them as "that group of capital-d Democrats who mostly hold the same set of predictable views."
And while we're on the topic of language, it'd be nice to see a discussion going in mainstream circles about other terms that are so often abused and misused. I'm reminded of leftists pointing to the pretty dictionary definition of "liberal" (despite it having nothing to do with the nuts and bolts of their ideology) or using the high-and-mighty label "progressive."
The one time I ever agreed with Sean Hannity was when he suggested that the right respond to liberals self-identifying as progressives by self-identifying as "visionaries." That would surely make labels meaningless in political discourse, a welcome thing in my opinion.
As for the destruction of the term "conservative" at the hands of politicians using it to describe themselves, Andrew Sullivan has already addressed the topic at length, and I couldn't agree with him more on that issue.
Let's see if we can use "Republic Party" and have it stick in the vernacular.
"You never need think that you can turn over any old falsehoods without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it."--Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.
tee hee
"Let's see if we can use 'Republic Party' and have it stick in the vernacular."
Keep it short and sweet: "Repub."
What a load of crap. If you're insulted by people calling you 'democrat' instead of 'democratic,' it suggests you're going to be insulted by pretty much anything.
What's happened to Sean since On the Road? How did such moving and generous writing morph into grandstanding, by turns hubristic and paranoid, and absurdly partisan posturing? The imaginary chat with Obama, the woeful piece about what life experiences could make someone become a Republican, and now this incredibly petty non-event.
Maybe we were all just intoxicated by the historical moment during On the Road? I'd go back and review them, but I don't want to be disillusioned.
@Alex S:
"Death tax" instead of "inheritance tax"
"Plausible deniability" instead of "lying"
"Collateral damage" instead of "murdered civilians"
"Trickle-down economics" instead of "Let me piss on your leg and tell you it's raining economics"
You're right, there are literally hundreds of examples if you look hard enough (well, actually, not that hard)
Stat-Wall... I say lets put Rush's mouth to the test. The RNC should run him for elected office. Lets see what he looks like in a serious debate, with fact checkers all over his ass.
There aren't enough fact-checkers in the world to cover that big old thing.
If Democrats could JUST refrain from taking the bait, we could make some real headway in getting this train back on the track.
Someone says "Democrat Party" and is met with silence. It's a silence that speaks loudly. The kind of silence that I use when my children forget to say "please". I'm waiting. I'm waiting for the right word. I'm not acting until you use the right word to my face.
You are an idiot.
THAT kind of silence.
If Democrats just go about their business and DO THE WORK and let the Limbaughs and O'Reillys fester in their own vitrole, in 2012 it will be Limbaugh and O'Reilly who become irrelevant.
When the Republican base keeps hearing how Limbaugh et al wants Obama to fail and they start to see their stock portfolios rise and their factories back at full capacity and inventory moving again... they may have to rethink their own loyalties.
Just do the work Democrats. Quit worrying about the blowhards and just get to work and get it done.
If you really REALLY want to stick to Limbaugh and O'Reilly? Succeed.
Nothing pisses off a Republican like a Democrat with money.
There are quite a few of us too.....
The prime difference between the tone of the parties appears that only pundits from the left are the ones who use pejorative name-calling, whereas on the right, pundits as well as elected officials stoop to this level.
I may not know the whole story, and I'm willing to be educated. So: PeteKent, and other conservative readers - can you come up with any examples of Democratic elected officials using terms such as "Rethuglican"?
Are a lot of you hearing a whooshing sound as the point of this post goes over your head (the point being that Democrat Party is a lowbrow epithet)? Trying to come up with something analogous for the Republicans would not be a very good idea in light of that, no?
My suggestion is calling the GOP the "Republican't" Party. If you say it fast enough, no one will really know for sure what you said.
Nate...
I think the proposals are largely tongue in cheek. Mine were.
The best thing to do with the ignorant in high places is--let them speak.
Insightful post.
Limbaugh's use of the term "butt boys" certainly "elevates the discourse", doesn't it?
All that the Democrats seem to be required to do in order to discredit Republicans is to let them be themselves. They have a profoundly delusional estimation of their numbers, power, relevance, and cleverness.
The underlying problem that the entire Limbaugh fiasco illustrates is that the GOP is flailing about to define itself. A year ago they were all about the "Our God can beat up their God" clash of civilisations. Now they've gone all "Randian" and seem to not care who's God wins the titanic struggle of the century.
The top-down organisational structure of the GOP absolutely requires a coherent, readily-identifiable, and simplistic self-definition of what it means to be a Republican. So far we have seen that it means shrill cries of 'socialism' that have proven to be a failure in grasping the nation's imagination. They are only now beginning to concede that perhaps the nation does not really hate Obama as much as they've been contending for months.
For what it's worth, those in the Clinton White House thought that "Democrat Party" was used by the Repubs to subliminally associate Democrats with "Bureaucrats".
There's a humorous analysis of the election's linguistic battles here:
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10566
can you come up with any examples of Democratic elected officials using terms such as "Rethuglican"?
Hope you enjoy the sound of crickets chirping, because that's all you usually hear when you ask a Republican this question. THe closest thing I've ever gotten to an actual answer is a lame "well, I saw it on the Internet somewhere," which, of course, is not an answer to the question asked at all.
The thing is, right wingers tend to confuse the voices in their heads with actual statements made by actual people.
But do keep asking the question. It really makes 'em scurry.
Nate, can you please drop Sean and bring 538 back to what it was supposed to be-something different for people interested in statistics and numbers and how they interplay with the political World? I understand that you're both Democrats- that's fine. But do you really want this site to degenerate into another whiny partisan hack site? Aren't there enough of those already? Come on Nate, either talk to him about keeping the partisan whining to a minimum or go out on your own. You know you're the driving force behind the success of this site. Unless you do something to this effect, you will drive away all of your conservative fans, of which I am/was one.
Somewhat circuitous, Sean, but an interesting read.
I've heard this new GOP theme that its silly or petty for Dems to make an issue out of this and Rahm is somehow evil, but that misses the point. Rush is the one picking a fight, the Dems (for once) are not letting the rest of the GOP hide behind him. Personally, I think that pointing out Rush's central importance to the GOP base is justifiable and long overdue. Calling out others to stand up to a bully if they disagree with him doesn't strike me as particularly childish, either. The non-Rush GOP's stance seems odd to me - sure my best friend Rush called you names, but you shouldn't point out he's my friend (but I won't say I don't agree with him because he might beat me up). Huh?
A childish response would be for the Dems to whine and pout about how mean Rush is - which I haven't heard anyone do (unlike 2001-08). Or simply misconstruing reality. Like, say, claiming no one could have predicted we'd be seen as occupiers in Iraq when the Iraqi scholar who was the source for the "greeting us as liberators" line ended it by noting if we didn't get out quickly we'd be seen as occupiers. Or bending intel to make a presentation to the UN more compelling. Or conning millions of Americans into believing in WMDs when the evidence was flimsier than Karl Rove's grasp of ethics. Or a president publicly labeling any desire to speak with our enemies "appeasement" and essentially accusing anyone who didn't support war at all costs a traitor. Or hiring attorneys we know will find a reason to justify anything we do, then claiming to have relied on their "independent advice" in disregarding the Constitution. But what sort of Presidential administration would do that?
Or maybe it's just a childish way of demeaning the party. Democratic sounds unequivocally good; Democrat makes the target sound personalized and partisan.
Did Sean seriously need to spill several hundred words on this and do a frequency analysis of the terms on different websites?
shaas, I don't see the problem with combining statistical analysis with opinion pieces - that's one of the strengths of the site.
The problem, as you point out, is the nature of the opinion pieces. There is a big gulf in balance, objectivity and general seriousness between Sean's pieces and those of Nate and Andrew, and it's not only conservatives like you that it's putting off.
Ubeerto criticizes Fred for misspelling "their," then misspells "notch" himself (not "knotch"). Back to first grade, Uberto.
Well it makes sense to me to start calling the Republican Party after it's titular head. Or, at the very least separate the moderate Republicans from the serpent's nest that the conservative right wing of the party had become. I am referring to, of course the Limbavians, and consequently the Limbavian party!.
Fantastic post Sean. It really articulated some of my feelings about the current day Republican party. Speaking as a former Republican voter (Reagan 1984 and Bush 1988), the republican party seems to have allowed itself to be taken over by talk radio and is simply not serious anymore. The style is all combative, in your face, superficial, anti-intellectual. It totally repels me aesthetically; I abhor its style.
Boing, I agree. I don't mind some opinion thrown in now and then; and I understand it's going to lean to the left. That's fine- it's their blog and they can think how they like. What I object to is the hysterical baiting that Sean engages in, as opposed to Nate and Andrew, who merely present their ideas in a left-leaning lens. Sean's posts sound like something you'd go to dailykos, moveon or michaelmoore.com to read. My whole point is that those sites already exist. This site was supposed to be something different- and I hope to returns to the way it was during the campaign.
On putting labels on articles here, I hope they will sort this out in future if there's a remake of the site.
"Editorial" or "Viewpoint" should head this kind of column by Sean. But it should also head many of Nate's.
"Analysis" should head most of Nate's columns, all of Andrew's, and many of Sean's.
JD Rhoades said (directed at PeteKent):
...but doesn't that make you just another noisy crazy guy, standing on a corner yelling at no one?
The baffling irony is that this applies to all of you ranting liberals who litter the comments section of every post day-after-day on this site with vile partisan garbage. You're yelling at no one (that cares, anyway).
A comparison I wish were made more often: the use of a proper noun where an adjective ought to be, to express contempt, is not unprecedented.
What would you think of someone who called Joe Lieberman a "Jew politican" instead of a "Jewish politician"?
@Ed: good question. But I think the press can find a shorthand precedent.
A story might refer to him as "Senator Joe Lieberman (J-CT)."
@Ed: some other possible labels, if we're really going into labels. (btw, this is snark!)
A-Atheist
J-Jewish
J-Reform Jew
JO-Orthodox Jew
H-Hindu
M-Muslim
C-Christian
C-BA Born Again
RC-Roman Catholic
U-Undeclared
X-Mixed
L-Looney Tunes
And while we're at it, lets label everyone's sex, sexual orientation, and age. Let it all hang out there.
Mad:
Actually, if you read the full posts, you'll note that there is some idea exchanging going on in our LIEberal DEMONcrat ramblings.
So it's more like the GOP's echo chamber, only not as soundproof, because we do, in fact, listen to dissenting opinions, if they pass the respect threshold.
Ironically, that's what Sean's post was about, if you didn't read it.
I wonder if all of these folks here whining about "partisanship" are also over at right wing blogs doing the same. I tend to doubt it.
Phillip, shaas, and others -- pretty much the most obnoxious thing to say to a blog owner is "don't post stuff I don't like." (Closely followed by "I speak for many others.")
No one's forcing you to read everything here. Sean's posts aren't some brand-new feature. They inspire plenty of interesting discussion, and if you don't like them, you have the option of skipping over them, if Nate gave in to you and got rid of them, those of us who like Sean's writing would have no such option.
If you don't like it, Get Your Own Blog.
Wikipedia has an interesting article on the history of the term. Apparently it has existed as a part of conservative strategy for decades.
I'm not really sure why all these Republicans are still getting so much air time.
JD Rhoades -
I can't speak for Shaas but no, I don't spend my time at right-wing blogs criticising them for partisanship, because I don't read right-wing blogs. Despite being left-wing, I also don't read many left-wing blogs. The attractive thing about this site was that although the writers were clearly Democrats (sorry, Democratic ;)), the site offers something more than an ideological angle: it offers an analytical angle that was both technically sophisticated and clearly communicated for the layman.
But Sean added something extra to the analytic excellence during the campaign. His pieces not only caught the mood, but despite their slant were quite generous about the people he came across on his journey.
My guess is that Sean is quite an emotional man. This worked great when he was meeting ordinary people and responding to them on a human level, in the context of an ongoing story. When he's writing about generic Republicans, though, it tends to lead to ranting, stereotyping, demonising, and simplifying. As Shaas points out, there are plenty of other places on the net where we can go for that, but it's sullying the 538 brand, which used to be a lot classier than most of the rest.
I suppose the other option is just to ignore Sean's pieces, but it's a shame as he clearly has the talent, he just needs to get back to something like the writer he was before.
Looks like the author and most of the participants of this thread missed Chris Matthews calling out Darrell Issa for using the "Democrat Party" line recently.
It was hardly a "bitch slap", and Matthews was correct in calling Issa out. Find the clip on YouTube.
@Richard: because they practially totally own the radio air space.
I think I might have a compromise
Would Nate be open to having a right leaning poster added to the frontpagers.
I agree with most though that the optimal solution is to make the site nonpartisan.
On to the post it is almost laughable
I quote Seans last paragraph
One of the reasons the "childish" party of Fleischer and Limbaugh is having such a tough time in the wilderness is they've done a too-clever-by-half job figuring out how to systematically weaponize language. There's no referee. It's their right. It's also no great parlor trick, and you can go to any grade-school playground and find the same. The day Republicans work to signal good faith by policing their own house on basic respect in language will probably run parallel with the day we'll see the party reborn as an ideologically grownup force.
The current tactic that the Democrats are using on this issue is exactly what you claim to be upset about. Both sides are wrong its petty and immature. Pot Kettle Black
Actually, if you read the full posts, you'll note that there is some idea exchanging going on in our LIEberal DEMONcrat ramblings.
Maybe my assessment of "yelling at no one" is a bit of a misnomer. The proverbial equivalent is more accurately "preaching to the choir," which in turn, more closely resembles the "echo chamber" you allude to in your response. Either way, whether you're "yelling at no one" or "preaching to the choir," your opinions are moot and irrelevant.
So it's more like the GOP's echo chamber
That's funny because I'm pretty sure any rational person would see fivethirtyeight.com (its comments sections, anyway) as nothing but pure liberal echo chambers.
...because we do, in fact, listen to dissenting opinions, if they pass the respect threshold.
Let me repeat "...if they pass the respect threshold..."
Way to define the goal post yourself without using any objective standards. Nice, real nice. You can sit back and call practically anything as not meeting the "respect threshold" and then hold yourself up on a pedestal as one who listens to dissenting opinions. What a load of shit. Oh, and I've seen how well dissenting opinions - even the most reasonable ones - are shouted down in here, where people are bullied, taunted, mocked, and derided as if they're brainless 7-year olds. Maybe you're not the worst offender in here, but most of the other liberal antagonists are just out to pick a fight.
Ironically, that's what Sean's post was about, if you didn't read it.
No, the irony is still on you...don't shift that burden to me when it's still sailing a mile above your head. And I did read his rant, and to be quite honest, it is a juvenile and hyperpartisan rant where he comes across like a whiny little (girl). It's unbecoming and actually outright disgusting.
@THEO: thanks. Here's the Matthews smack-down of Issa.
@Nova: Nate has posted as much -- that he'd welcome a right leaning regular. But I imagine he'd prefer someone who has an analytical (i.e., data analytical) bent. And he really doesn't want mere propagandists in either side of the spectrum.
"And he really doesn't want mere propagandists in either side of the spectrum."
- except for Sean, of course.
Nate has posted as much -- that he'd welcome a right leaning regular.
Do you have proof of this? I've never gotten the impression that Nate wants someone even remotely associated with "conservatism" anywhere near his site and prefers it much the way it is now. Unless you provide a link that shows where Nate has hinted at this, I'm going to have to suggest that you are lying to insinuate Nate has the proverbial "olive branch" offered to the other side when it doesn't really exist.
And he really doesn't want mere propagandists in either side of the spectrum.
Nate himself has been guilty of propaganda in some of his posts or by allowing Sean to post the filth he has put on here of late. Get off your high horse and look at things objectively.
I won't argue that Nate has on many occasions used data/analytics to provide some very insightful and objective analysis, even some that accurately denounces some conservative misconceptions, but he too has fallen victim to wanting to cherry-pick data to fit a narrative around his own ideological bend.
I read this blog every day. Nate wrote it at some point, but no way can I find that.
Let Nate speak for himself on this when he gets a chance.
I've gotten totally wrapped around the axle about the "Democrat Party" thing as well as most things that come forth from Rush Limbaugh's lips. I now understand why -- I feel like when I was in junior high with all the idiot thugs who tormented me with stupid, uncreative name-calling. I was unable to make them stop and no amount of resorting to similar tactics by me would make me feel better.
Of course, now I'm a grown-up. So when someone says "Democrat Party" and Rush Limbaugh says almost anything, I get to forgive them (an article of faith for me, and a method for untying myself), but also realize that they're not interested in dialog, only plain brutish bullying.
@Mad: This is what I recommended earlier on this thread.
"On putting labels on articles here, I hope they will sort this out in future if there's a remake of the site.
"Editorial" or "Viewpoint" should head this kind of column by Sean. But it should also head many of Nate's.
"Analysis" should head most of Nate's columns, all of Andrew's, and many of Sean's."
"All this nonsense about Obama failing and now whether it is unpatriotic is idicy. Like any of the Left wanted Bush to succeed!"
We wanted Bush to prevent terrorism, protect civil liberties, and keep America strong. We disagreed with Bush's methods vociferously, but -- this is important -- we didn't want increased terrorist attacks, reduced civil liberties, and a weakened America just to prove that we were right all along.
Rush, meanwhile, wants the American economy to get worse just so he can say "I told you so". He is all about ideology over the well-being of America, and for that matter so are most of the Republicans in charge. (Whether most ground-level Republicans are also partisan hacks is a matter for spirited debate, but if you're still backing the GOP at this point, there is something wrong with you.)
Fleischer was an alum and spoke at my high school graduation in '01, he passed out from heat exhaustion that day onstage mid speech. Apparently, it never occurred to him that you needed to drink water in a closed-in area. I thought he was a blowhard then and a terrible speaker. My opinion has not changed, he's still a grade-A tool.
I would agree that actively associating the Republican party with Rush Limbaugh should be beneath the white house. It is a lot closer to smearing than I am comfortable with, and reeks of immaturity and irresponsibility. I would respond to public figures who call Obama a socialist the same way.
@uajcgable: Associating Limbaugh with the GOP is hardly a smear. It's just politics, and no WH is above politics. If it has the effect of separating ideologues from pragmatists, poseurs from politicos who really want to find solutions to our problems, it's good politics.
Very good point about bullying, (other) Richard. I do think there is value in calling bullies out, however.
Nate wrote it at some point, but no way can I find that.
Maybe that's true, but somehow I doubt its sincerity even if it is. I'll leave it at that and not pile on with any further snarky comments on the matter except to say if a conservative had made an assessment such as yours, was called on it (i.e. asked to provide proof and/or a link), and then responded with "but no way can I find that", then they'd be lambasted in here and called a dirty, rotten scoundrel and liar and shouted down in every subsequent post by the rabid liberal mob. Just wanted to point out the double standard.
Let Nate speak for himself on this when he gets a chance.
Gladly. And the day he invites and brings on a conservative, even a moderate/centrist, to contribute, be it data/analysis or editorials, is the day I believe he's truly interested in engaging with "the other side" rationally and not out to just blindly push his own agenda.
Christ. Calling the Democratic Party the Democrat Party is not bullying. At the very most, it's trying to get a rise.
It's about the least offensive political slur I've ever heard. Literally, I can't think of a less offensive or upsetting one. At the very most, it's a minor irritant, like a work colleague who can never remember your name and you suspect is doing it on purpose.
This reminds me of the supporters of Manchester United, a soccer team in England. They get really wound up by people calling them "Man U", preferring either "Manchester United" or "Man United." There's no actual reason for them to take offence at this, and in fact there are United fans of the older generation who also call their team "Man U" - just as there are Democrats who call their party the Democrat Party - a statistically significant number of Democrats, as Sean's survey showed.
It's a complete non-issue.
Sean Quinn, you are 538's Yoko Ono. This was one of the most pointless threads I have ever read.
This was a great post. Thanks so much.
Hey, #99! One more for century! & I'm clearly 99 times better than #1!
I’ve been wanting to write about this for awhile.
Nate, this silly, long-winded post shows your obsession w/ numbers knows no bounds, & has no grip on reality -- a "Democrat/Democratic" ratio? C'mon, get real.
After starting off your boring, long-winded post by saying "I'm gonna write about something 'more or less irrelevant'"
Just stupid. Use #s where they illuminate, don't throw them in to show how kewl you ain't.
It's almost as silly and long-winded as the idjits who insist on replying w/ "FIRST" on comments, like having nothing else to do but comment on other's work from the safety of their parent's basement is some sort of badge of honor.
Such posts as this are gonna turn you into a punchline.
Everyone's gripe seems to be that this post is editorial content and should be labeled as such.
To me, that's not the problem. Even in the most statistically sophisticated posts, there is almost always some subjectivity in the analysis of the results. I expect editorial comment.
What bothered me about this post is that it's a well worn topic and that Sean doesn't bring any new or insightful analysis. I know why pundits use democrat vs democratic, so do 99% of people visiting this site.
My bottom line is simply that there are at least a dozen more interesting, and unanswered or disputed, questions that could be taken up in the space.
Boing -- wow, just when I thought the "don't post stuff I don't like" complaints couldn't get any more obnoxious, you go for psychoanalyzing one of our hosts.
Guess what? Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean they have some kind of psychological problem.
nova_middle_man:
I agree with most though that the optimal solution is to make the site nonpartisan.
If by "most" you mean "most of the small minority who are too lazy to skip over posts they don't like and insist that the rest of us not be allowed to read them either," then that statement might be true.
My bottom line is simply that there are at least a dozen more interesting, and unanswered or disputed, questions that could be taken up in the space.
The thing, though, is that now that the luster of "campaign season" has worn off, everyone is now being privied to the dearth of intelligence exhibited by Sean (and sometimes Nate).
They can no longer hide behind the euphoria, so their true colors are showing...and those "colors" are nothing new or fancy with regards to insight, knowledge, or analysis. They're just the same old insipid rants by hyperpartisan hacks.
Guess what? Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean they have some kind of psychological problem.
@Redshift-
I never picked up the feeling that Boing was insinuating Sean has pyschological problems. I picked up - which is closer to the truth - that Sean comes off like a whiny bitch and that it's very annoying for a site that's supposed to be above that with cutting edge intellect and insight. Stop projecting thoughts and emotions onto people.
@ Juris, Nova, Mad: Juris is correct, Nate has indicated he would welcome [ahem] intelligent commentary from the right. Consider the following excerpt from an interview with Progress Illinois:
JK: You seem to have a pretty healthy community of commenters on the site.
NS: I've been encouraged by the commenters. Sometimes on political sites the comments can go kind of haywire. I'd actually like to get more people from Republican-leaning blogs, but it's mostly been people from the left -- probably three-to-one or so. I'd like to kind of get more of a following of people who maybe I don't agree with personally, but are intelligent voters.
(Interview located at http://www.progressillinois.com/2008/06/02/features/man-behind-the-math)
I'm guessing the same would apply to guest bloggers.
@ Sean: ...in our Wild West comments section
And the spurs are a-jangling this morning!
Great post, Sean. I dig your "partisan rantings."
I have a pretty good understanding of the linguistic process that's going on in the term "Democrat Party." It's essentially the same process in a term like "Jew banker": turning a noun into an adjective makes the word seem vulgar and insulting.
Obviously, it only works with terms where the noun and adjective normally use a different word. Thus, you can't pull the same trick with Republican, since Republican is both an adjective and a noun: people say both "I'm a Republican" and "I belong to the Republican Party." But "I'm a Democrat" contrasts with "I belong to the Democratic Party."
Some people make the mistake of thinking the "Democrat Party" slur can be countered by referring to the "Republic Party." This is wrong, for two reasons. First, as indicated above, the point of the term "Democrat Party" is not that a syllable is being chopped off but that the noun is being used as an adjective. Second, the word "Republic" has positive connotations, whereas the word "Democrat" does not. Indeed, one advantage of saying "Democrat Party" (from a Republican's perspective) is that it avoids the positive association of small-d "democratic."
@RufusRules
I'm guessing the same would apply to guest bloggers.
Well, what you guess and what is reality could be two different things. My guess is that Nate doesn't want anyone with even a remote conservative tilt to control any of the blogging. I do concede the point that he desires more engagement with conservatives/Republicans at least as far as the comments go.
I take issue with this, however:
...but it's mostly been people from the left -- probably three-to-one or so...
That's a laughable miscalculation. How about 10-to-1?! No way 1/4th of the comments on this blog are from more conservative readers! That's a joke and he's living in fantasy land if he doesn't think the rabid liberal hordes don't dominate at least 90% of the ocmmentary.
Juris suggested Nate was welcome to intelligent conservative "contributers"...not more conservative "commenters"...big difference.
Mad et al,
As a blogger myself, I wonder what your argument is that Nate and Sean owe any sort of duty to you. They run this site without requiring a subscription fee or anything of the sort, so it boggles my mind that you and others think that you should have any control over what the 538 crew talks about and/or what stance they take on it.
You know what you can do? Not read it and just leave it be. They owe the same duty to you that they do to me (a reader since literally the first day this site existed) and that duty is NOTHING.
Put on some big boy (or big girl, I don't want to presume your gender) and realize that you are unimportant. It is fine to discuss the merits of a post/opinion, but whining that they are talking about issues you don't like or care about is complete garbage.
@ Mad
There have been other instances where Nate has expressed an interest in having someone from the right guest-blog here. Sifting through the 538 archives is tedious given the site's format, which is why no one has time to find a link for you.
Also, that interview is from last June, before this site "blew up." The ratio very well could have been different then.
I had never even encountered the phrasing of "the Democrat party" until about a month ago... when left bloggers complained about the use of the term. Maybe I never noticed, but now that is brought to my attention I know I don't really care. The only reason I would give it a second of thought would be to pluralize the term, otherwise it appears to be a lonely party. It doesn't seem worthy of getting worked up over.
However, when I see commenters, on this site and others, referring to President Obama as "Barry" I AM offended. It is a name he doesn't go by, has never used in his almost 3 years of the national stage, and is said with such vitriol that it is really undermining of the very idea of having a productive conversation. If those commenting can't even take their subject seriously enough to address him by his accepted name then we have no place engaging in a debate.
@Danny
As a blogger myself, I wonder what your argument is that Nate and Sean owe any sort of duty to you.
I wish you'd go back and re-read the comments and see if what you're saying even applies to me. I never said anyone - and especially Nate or Sean - owed me anything. I initially spoke out against someone deriding PeteKent, who essentially told him that he was "yelling at no one" because his points were irrelevant. This same person then went on to gripe about the GOP echo chamber. All I did was point out that the liberals who rant on here day after day are essentially doing the same thing - pointless yelling - and that this was nothing more than a liberal echo chamber. I made no initial mention of the posts or what I felt I was owed. Go back and read them. You can read, can't you?
They run this site without requiring a subscription fee or anything of the sort, so it boggles my mind that you and others think that you should have any control over what the 538 crew talks about and/or what stance they take on it.
It boggles my mind how someone can blather about something and completely miss the conversation. It shows a lack of insight on your part if you construed anything I said as implying I believe I, or anyone else, should have control over what the "538 crew" talks about. I did call out Juris and RufusRules when they insinuated that Nate has mentioned he would like more conservative contributions - be they posts or comments - by asking for proof and then doubting the sincerity of Nate's motives if they did indeed exist. I never said - and frankly, you are grasping at straws to insinuate this - that it means I think some of "us" should exert some control over the site's content.
more inane drivel from Danny
You're sounding whiny and none of what you said about me is reflected by anything I posted.
...but whining that they are talking about issues you don't like or care about is complete garbage.
Again, I say I never whined about what they talked about. I simply pointed out the obvious about this site, its contributers, and commentary. Go read my posts.
@Rufus Rules-
Sifting through the 538 archives is tedious given the site's format, which is why no one has time to find a link for you.
Again, I'll say to you what I told Juris, that excuse is never considered plausible by you liberals for conservatives who throw "facts" around without citation, so why should I believe you now? I'll even elevate the discourse by not mocking and deriding you with belligerent language for not providing one except to say until I see definitive proof Nate wants to add a conservative contributor, I'm not really buying it.
Off-Topic:
Mad—
Feel free to start a blog of your own and link it here. You won't be the first.
On-Topic:
The "Democrat Party" thing goes way back. I remember former-Democrat John Connally using it throughout his speech at a Republican National Convention (1976 or 1980) and a network anchor, David Brinkley I think, calling it a throwback to the days of FDR. That was the first time I'd ever heard it. For some time after that I noted it whenever I heard it, but those days are long over. Now it's just noise.
This one is going out to Mr. Limbaugh. This isn't about Rush. This is about the Whitehouse saying "hey, all you folks that we don't see entirely eye to eye with but are willing to talk to and work with us in a mature manner, yeah let's do some of that talking and work out something we both can accept".
We are already to the point that GOP figures are willing to acknowledge Rush is just an ugly showboater. It's only a matter of time before we get one that has the sense to keep their backbone and run with the truth of the matter.
I initially spoke out against someone deriding PeteKent, who essentially told him that he was "yelling at no one" because his points were irrelevant.
Wrong. I told him that people were likely to stop reading when he referred to Obama as "Ovomit." Since the usual response to that is some variant of "I don't care if you libs read me or not", I thought I'd just pre-empt that argument by pointing out that that would be like a crazy guy yelling at no one.
Nice try at making poor PeteKent seem like some martyr being oppressed, though. Fact is, he engaged in childish name-calling, I called him on it, case closed.
Read better next time and maybe you won't embarrass yourself so badly. .
That would be Rush "Do as I say, not as a I do" Limbaugh?
Just after Bush agreed not to do this with Pelosi after 2006 election, I sent a comment which got the BBC to stop using Democrat as an adjective by pointing this out.
They're just the same old insipid rants by hyperpartisan hacks.
If you honestly believe Nate and Sean are hyperpartisan hacks and do nothing but rant insipidly, why do you continue to come to this site?
There must be something redeeming about them to draw your prescence. Your use of the word "always" implies that this is nothing new, either. So do you come here just to be combative?
If you honestly believe Nate and Sean are hyperpartisan hacks and do nothing but rant insipidly, why do you continue to come to this site?
To enlighten all us poor ignint lefties with his Vulcan-like logic, objectivity, and non-partisanship. Duh.
Read better next time and maybe you won't embarrass yourself so badly
Hah! The only thing embarrassing is you and your childish whining.
You're just like the others - and I have a little of the same problem too - who get off seeing their words posted on this blog in the comments section. Mental masturbation, isn't that what they call it? It's easy to act all big and bad and make insults and counter-insults throughout a discussion so long as it's all coming from various anonymous corners of cyberspace.
Make a difference in real life and show how you're contributing in that regard. Otherwise - whether you're shouting me down or rubbing your own cyber-privates or those of your liberal comrades here in this hedonistic leftist, groupthink orgy - you really are engaging in pointless behavior. Now that is an embarrassment.
And, no, I'm not lost on the irony, as I realize "calling you on it" isn't necessarily productive behavior either if I truly believe your rantings are pointless.
Anyway, just know that what you post in here is really irrelevant.
Anyway, just know that what you post in here is really irrelevant.
Heh.
Paul@
Geoffrey Nunberg as usual has the goods on this topic. He quotes a William Safire column which traces the term back to 1940:
http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~nunberg/democrats.html#Anchor-11481
Nunberg traces the term to even earlier.
"They run this site without requiring a subscription fee or anything of the sort, so it boggles my mind that you and others think that you should have any control over what the 538 crew talks about and/or what stance they take on it."
I'm sick and tired of comments like this. This website allows viewers to post comments because Nate would like feedback from his audience. Given Nate's preference being evenhanded with data, I'm assuming he wants to hear positive AND negative feedback.
I would not presume to exert any "control" over content, but as long as there is a comment section, I'm going to comment honestly about what I like and do not like about any given post.
On C-SPAN a few months back, some R-rep used the term Democrat Party in a speech, and then the democrat who responded made him apologize, as it's a chamber of Congress and respect is needed. He also pointed out that democrats do not use the term "Republic" party
[In the voice of Yoda]
"Rubber am I. Glue are you. What off me bounces, to you sticks."
I would definitely follow up on this. I think it must be a common tactic of the right to give nicknames to things (They called the Lieberman Warner climate change bill the Warner Lieberman) specifically so that they can message control. If you figure that the media is totally fractured, then people who listen to conservatives will look up topics (say on the internet) the way they are defined by conservatives, thus never being exposed to a different perspectives. It is possible to go through life in the country almost never hearing how the other side thinks. And I think that is a tactic that needs to be busted wide open. Have the Democrats start using some of this code and it will screw up the flow.
This incident just shows the Republicans for what they are. Their is a massive inner civil war and all it took was two or three comments from dems for this thing to grow out of control.
The Democratic party would be wise to shut up about it now since it has a life of its own.
Did anyone see Rachel Maddow's interview with Gov. Pawlenty? He was visibly terrified to say anything negative about Limbaugh lest he have to go on his show in the morning and publicly clean Limbaugh's balls with his tongue". He also implied that Limbaugh was part of the plan to expand the GOP tent. What a joke, like anyone with a functional brain would listen to this clown.
Pawlenty proved that the madmen have taken over and no one in the party has a clue how to take control, nor do they have any ideas about how to fix the country.
"All this nonsense about Obama failing and now whether it is unpatriotic is idicy. Like any of the Left wanted Bush to succeed!"
I, too, remember when a loud-mouthed radio host effectively took over as the voice of the Democratic party, called for Bush to fail, and was met with acceptance from the party.
Wait, what?
"Of course, lost in all of this to many is that the whole Limbaugh contretemps is an actual strategy at the White House being employed to distract and draw attention away from the far more serious issues the country faces."
Ah yes, because the White House brought this issue up clearly means they and the people can't focus on other things. Meanwhile, there's a healthcare summit, bills being passed, and Republicans like PeteKent are left clueless while their party erodes beneath them.
Will they ever get it? It doesn't look like it, but it's still early, I guess.
Ok, there is a simple solution to this nonsense from the RepublCON party. From no on have every Democratic talking head use the term RepubliCON to describe the RepubliCON's
No that is just the way I pronounce it, Con Can what is the difference... Does that bother you to be called RepubliCON's....
I've never understood why Democrats refuse to do the same thing as Republicans as a method of showing how absurd it is. During the election, every drOp of "Barack Hussein Obama" should have been met with "John Sidney McCain The Third." But I didn't hear that even once. If we had it would have been clear how ridiculous using the full name is.
How about responding to "Democrat Party" by calling them the "Republic Party?" We're just dropping two letters like they do. But it sounds ridiculous, and should.
The first time I remember actually hearing "Democrat" used as a pejorative adjective was by Sen. Dole during the Vice-Presidential debate in 1976. He was going on about "Democrat Wars" (WW I, WW II, Korea, and Vietnam). I was listening on the radio, so I don't recall if Sen. Mondale had any visible reaction; I don't remember him reacting verbally to the slight.
sean,
the use of "democrat party" as a pejorative is older than hoover:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(United_States)
I just call them republicons. I spell it that way too. They are cons. The official spelling should be changed.
Going after Rush is utterly bankrupt. It will only help reelect Democrats. It does not guarantee any progressive reform. In fact, focusing voter attention on personalities, rather than policy, helps Democrats who only want to win the next election.
Rush: The New Bush
I know you are but what am I?
Associating Limbaugh and other right wing rants with conservative failure is a good stragegy. He's a Hoover for our times, and making him an iconic Hoover figure makes a lot of sense. He also richly deserves it.
The article's reference to "historical Republican demonization of gays, blacks, immigrants, and other groups" misses the mark. Pre-New Deal Repulicans did not demonize blacks, but pre-New Deal Democrats certainly did. Repulicans at one time had a strong, progressive tradition (e.g. Lincoln, TR) whereas Democrats like Wilson segregated the armed forces. I suspect that Democratic Supreme Court justicies were responsible for Plessy v. Ferguson (and Harlan, the great dissenter who said that the Constitution was color blind, was a Republican.)
Nate, your analysis gets right to the point of why Obama is so attractive, he always seem like the grownup in the room. He can listen to the name-calling, etc. and not let it cloud his judgment and actions. He says in so many ways that his detractors can behave badly if they choose, but they should be ready for the consequences (usually looking like fools and unable to work constructively in good faith.).
Thanks for a smart line of analysis!
I used to ignore the stupidity of the GOOPers saying "Democrat Party" when referencing the Democratic Party, until I started seeing it posted as DemocRAT Party - actually more often democRAT party. At that point, I decided that I didn't need to extend any respect to such posters.
As to all those who are complaining about their 'voices being drowned out (and/or suppressed)' by the liberal commentators here at fivethirtyeight.com, when The Free Republic, NewsMax and other Reich-wing blogs allow dissenting viewpoints, I'll listen to your rants on these pages (actually I'll just continue to scroll past most of them with little consideration of your screeching, and make even less comment about them).
Until the Freepers, NewsMax, et al allow a full range of intelligent discourse from all points of the political spectrum, count your blessings that you CAN post here at all, let alone post without presenting many, if any, intelligent viewpoints.
As a poster (too far back to find) suggested, Obama should quietly call off the Rush-baiting at some point. Eventually all the picking on the obese, addicted, narcissistic blowhard becomes unseemly.
Obama can effortlessly rise above this sort of thing himself, but he should call off Rahm while he's at it. Then he, Obama, can practice what he preaches within his own party.
Comedy Central, MSNBC and others in the infosplainment business can still chortle as the self-basting talk show host slowly turns on his own spit. Obama doesn't need to preside over a celebrity roast.
Redshift -
I don't think describing someone as 'quite emotional' constitutes psychoanalysing him, unless you think forming any opinion of a person is psychoanalysing them. It's entirely normal to get a sense of someone's personality from the way they write.
Nor is it obnoxious. There's nothing wrong with being emotional, and describing someone as such is not an insult. It's largely a good trait, in my book, and it lent itself to some terrific reporting during the election. But it does need tempering a little if you want to write seriously about the complicated, nuanced world of daily politics.
"I've never understood why Democrats refuse to do the same thing as Republicans as a method of showing how absurd it is."
They are, right now. A little late, maybe...
http://www.dccc.org/content/sorry
"As a poster (too far back to find) suggested, Obama should quietly call off the Rush-baiting at some point. Eventually all the picking on the obese, addicted, narcissistic blowhard becomes unseemly."
I think this is almost certainly a temporary thing; if you think they've exercised the potential of their political chops, you're probably in for a surprise.
I have parlayed my thoughts on the term "Democrat Party" into a diary entry on Kos:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/3/6/31010/85553
I almost (but not quite) feel sorry for the Rebumblicans.
Using "Democrat Party" is a time-saving courtesy. It inflicts no wound, and saves me the effort of seriously considering the statement.
--Edward Hussein Heffernan
I don't see why conservative readers are calling this article slanted, because it isn't. The republican party is resorting to playground insults, whereas the democrats aren't. And just because people report accurately what the republicans are doing doesn't mean they are slanted, it means the republican party is a joke and they aren't getting away with this.
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I'm sorry if this has been said already in one of the 152 previous comments, but in the long run it doesn't matter if people say "Democrat Party". Use a pejorative name often enough and it loses its connotation and ceases to have any effect.
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