The definitions of the terms “liberal” and “conservative” have been the subjects of much debate in contemporary American politics. But it has become increasingly clear that the term "progressive" is equally ambiguous, and is associated with at least two relatively distinct philosophical traditions. Although these two "progressivisms" share common ground on many (probably most) issues, they are at loggerheads on some others, as has perhaps become more apparent since the election of President Obama.
The first type of progressivism has its philosophical underpinnings in 18th Century, Enlightement-era thought. It believes that politics is a battle of ideas. It further believes that through the use of reason and the exchange of ideas, human society will tend to improve itself through scientific and technological innovation. Hence, it believes in progress, and for this reason lays claim to the term “progressive”. Because of its belief and optimism in the faculties of human reason, I refer to this philosophy as rational progressivism.
Rational progressivism tends to be trusting, within reason, of status quo political and economic institutions -- generally including the institution of capitalism. It tends to trust these institutions because it believes they are a manifestation of progress made by previous generations. However, unlike conservatism, it also sees these institutions as continuing works in progress, subject to inefficiencies because of distorted or poorly-designed incentives, poorly-informed or misinformed participants, and competition from 'irrational' worldviews like religion. It also recognizes that certain persons who stand to benefit from preserving the status quo, particularly elected officials but also corporations, may seek to block this progress to protect their own interests. The project of rational progressivism, then, is to propagate good ideas and to convert them, through a wide and aggressive array of democratic means, into public policy.
The second type of progressivism is what I call radical progressivism. It represents, indeed, a much more radical and comprehensive critique of the status quo, which it tends to see as intrinsically corrupt. Its philosophical tradition originates in 19th Century thought -- and specifically, owes a great deal to the Marxist critique of capitalism and the Marxist theory of social change. It also finds inspiration in both the radical movement of the 1960s and the labor and social movements of late 19th and early 20th centuries (from which it borrows the label "progressive").
Radical progressivism is more clearly distinguishable from "conventional" liberalism and would generally be associated with the "far left" -- although on a handful of issues such as free trade, it may find common cause with the "radical" right. Radical progressivism embraces the tradition of populism and frequently adopts a discourse of the virtuous commoner organizing against the corrupt elite. It is much more willing to make normative claims than rational progressivism, and tends to view conservatism as immoral and contemporary American liberalism as amoral (at best). Its project is not reform but transformation.
Rational progressives sometimes regard radical progressives as impractical, self-righteous, shrill, demagogic, naïve and/or anti-intellectual. Radical progressives, in turn, regard rational progressives as impure, corrupt (or corruptible), selfish, complacent, elitist, and too quick to compromise.
It should come as no surprise that I regard myself as a rational progressive. I believe in intellectual progress -- that we, as a species, are gradually becoming smarter. I believe that there are objectively right answers to many political and economic questions.
I believe that economic growth is both a reflection of and a contributor toward societal progress, that economic growth has facilitated a higher standard of living, and that this is empirically indisputable. I also believe, however, that our society is now so exceptionally wealthy -- even in the midst of a severe recession -- that it has little excuse not to provide for some basic level of dignity for all its citizens.
I believe that answers to questions like these do not always come from the establishment. But I also believe that it is just as important to question one's own assumptions as to question the assumption of others.
The truth is, I don’t particularly care whether you call me a “progressive” or not. In fact, I'm suspicious of people who line up on the same side of the ideological divide on every single issue. The world is more complicated than that, especially when one strives to see the world through a scientific, empirical lens. While progressives, in my view, clearly have the preponderance of good ideas, they do not have a monopoly on them. Nor do conservatives have a monopoly on bad ideas, especially when radical progressives flirt with Marxist modes of discourse.
Let me be very clear about what I am saying. I believe that our country needs a lot of work -- a lot of work -- almost certainly more work than Barack Obama is going to be able to accomplish in four or eight years. I believe that greater awareness and greater participation on behalf of everyday citizens is almost certainly a necessary condition to facilitate that work. To the extent that blogs, political campaigns, church groups, labor unions, and whatever other organization you can think of can coalesce that participation and turn it into a "movement", I am all for the "movement".
But if someone wants to marshal an army to fight a battle of wills while playing fast and loose with the truth and using some of the same demagogic precepts that the right wing does, I am not particularly interested in that. In fact, I think it is acutely dangerous.
2.15.2009
The Two Progressivisms
by Nate Silver @ 6:58 PM...see also ideology, meta, political philosophy, political spectrum
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236 comments
Thank you! An incredibly clear encapsulation of an omnipresent, often tacit, fault line on the left. I love me some rational progressivism, even if we are naive, elitist, technocrats.
Wow...great post. I have nothing significant to add to that except that - one wonders with the state of the US public school system, that it's possible "we" are getting both smarter and dumber with each passing generation.
...and what does that mean for the future of rational progressivism.
Regarding the last bit, my only comment is: Amen, Brother Silver.
Wow, Nate is a statistician AND a philosopher!
signed - Rational Progressive, PeixeGato
Really good post--a clear distinction between the progressives and radicals. I especially appreciate the fact that we agree so well and I'm 30 years older...
Rational wins hands down on that chart.
Sirota's douche-baggery is second only to Big Tent Democrat's, but this stuff flies so far above anything he's ever written, the only choice he'll have is to declare that you've succumb to "Dear Leader-ism".
Instead of radical progressivism, you might just call it liberal populism instead.
You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world...
I think the Beatles may have beat you to this articulate distinction
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but thank you for writing such a clear and succinct summary of the two lefts. I also count myself as a rational progressive
I gather you don't think much of Sirota. I understand that.
Do remember though, in the wrong circumstances, "rational" choices mean death and misery for human beings -- "sorry, we just can't get to that yet." A little irrational urgency on behalf of those who have little or nothing defines just how good a civilization we choose to have.
Ideology is important - the change that Western countries with Socialist / Social Democratic / Labour parties have been able to create in their societies compared to whats happened in America I think is illuminating.
By giving up the ideological initiative to Fusion Conservatism, progressives in the United States are having to fight a political debate that has been moved a long way rightwards.
I consider myself a "compromiser", but I also consider myself very liberal.
And I do think conservatives by in large have the monopoly on bad ideas. The reason being is the conservatives come to their conclusions based on religious and/or gut feelings. Like this magical "invisible hand" concept, or the "god" concept. Liberals on the otherhand base their economic and social conclusions on cold hard scientific analysis. And as a result liberals will be right almost 100% of the time.
Nice post Nate,
While I would consider myself a rational progressive, I find myself falling over the line into radical progressive from time to time.
Jason--if it were true that the left wasn't susceptible to magical thinking, we wouldn't have things like the persistence of the myth that autism is linked to vaccinations.
Nate wrote:
It should come as no surprise that I regard myself as a rational progressive. I believe in intellectual progress -- that we, as a species, are gradually becoming smarter. I believe that there are objectively right answers to many political and economic questions.
I would call you a naive optimist. We aren't becoming smarter. Most Americans run their lives based on superstition and a lack of knowledge in the most basic areas of science and politics. They disdain the intellectuals. I would say this is true for 90% of the Reublican "base" and 30-40% of Democrats, who are looking for Government help.
Having said that, I identify myself as a mainstream liberal. I want progress and will ally myself with superstitious religionists, anti-science populists, naive optimists and, yes, even Whigs, to move our agenda forward -- and left.
Might want to reread Karl Popper's Open Society and its Enemies, Nate. The chapters on Marxism are largely on that divide.
Great post Nate. You should do the same research for conservatives and show the other side of the aisle. How would you characterize Limbaugh and Hannity.
I think very few people would call themselves "radical progressives" by these definitions. A pair of definitions isn't very useful if no one would recognize themselves as belonging to one of the categories. Who would call themselves "prone to demagoguery" or "pessimistic" or "cynical" -- or for that matter, non "outcome oriented" or non "empirical"? This is a non-existent ideology you are describing.
A Marxist, for instance, would see himself as radical, transformative, outcome-oriented, empirical and normative (who isn't both??), interested in ideas, populist, etc. That is, almost anyone would choose the good adjectives and reject the bad ones in both lists, and as such, the "radical" list is at best just pejorative, and mostly just obfuscating. Your empirics here are great, but your philosophy needs a lot more work.
Nate's claim on us getter smarter and smarter with each generation needs to be examined. Such a belief leads to gradualism and a kind of ethical procrastination: yes we have problems but we can wait until people who are smarter than we are will fix them.
I've heard variations of this concerning environmentalism, global poverty and Middle Eastern peace process.
If Nate's claim rests upon Darwinism, as it seems it does because he mentions the smartness of our species, he should remember that species change leads different species, not progress within a species.
I want to believe in progress, too. But not blindly.
I enjoy Open Left and Fivethirtyeight. Here's what I think -- that some who call themselves pragmatic occasionally suffer from a lack of ambition, and that some who call themselves radical suffer from a lack of intellectualism.
Nate this rocks!
Here in Cambridge I'm up to my eyeballs in discourse that amounts to endless shrill one upmanship to find the most dark implausible basis for the 'why' of everything.
It's great you did the digging on origins as I came to conclude that the rational version must be some new thing so I ineptly call it 'Neo Progressivism'.
Who Knew?
And the 'shrillies' bury discourse in the headlong to be right while I'm happy to be wrong if I learn something.
And barring the gravity weighting toward some 'left', I find the radical outlook to be as toxic and intellectually dishonest as the horrid neocons and other odd fossils who never read Adam Smith's stuff about justice in the rush to use the old icon to justify triumph by expedience.
As for the elitist penchant, both camps have elements of that in my experience.
One of the biggest problems in America today is this incredible thin skinned insecurity of a requirement for 'like mindedness' that rules out respect for another persons experiential autonomy and makes it impossible to build bridges.
Back when I lived in Seattle, I worked construction with a lot of blue collar right wing rednecks but readily befriended them and shared my lore out of respect for their essential good human qualities.
They knew my position but I didn't pound em with it and focused on helpful stuff.
Over time, some would begin to see the unfolding damage done by Bush and begin to change their minds, cursing the decision that made them vote for the guy.
A shrilly would never do that. They'd opt to bore the bejesus out of the hardhats in that odious preachy way they so love and get nowhere except maybe tossed in a dumpster for the crew to find in the morning.
The process fetish sucks too as much of it is more one upmanship to reinvent wheels 'n' shit. God they are a painful prickly bunch whose main contribution to national life has been the introduction of PC.
This is why I instantly liked Obama. The shrill school imposed their prism on his existence without making much effort to actually determine what sort of critter he is and then went wildly off when he wasn't their poster child after all.
Giordano is one of the few who gets it and I see his thought quality as part of a triumvirate that includes you and scary James Howard Kunstler.
I got so sick of their shit that I tossed Firedoglake, Left Coaster and a bunch of others off of my blogroll for being painful, fussy, whiny and shrill and am much less aggravated.
The Right wingers aren't really so aggravating as I know history happily dooms them, especially during the gathering shitstorm bearing down on us all now.
I'm going to agree that the "radical progressive" category above is something almost nobody would self-identify with, therefore the distinction is useless. Even the most strident populist would probably consider himself rational in his distrust of the status quo, for instance.
However, unlike conservatism, it also sees these institutions as continuing works in progress, subject to inefficiencies because of distorted or poorly-designed incentives, poorly-informed or misinformed participants, and competition from 'irrational' worldviews like religion.
When you divide everyone on your side into "rational" and "radical", then claim that a fundamental requirement of being on the "rational" side involves seeing religion as an "inefficiency" in government, your definitions could probably use some work. You're excluding almost anyone who disagrees with you and placing them into a "radical" and "reactionary" group. That's not useful for anybody involved.
I think "Rational" here is incorrect. It implies that the other side is in fact, not rational. A better term might be "Timid" or "Trusting" or "Optimistic." There may be times when a revolution or upheaval is a more rational action, and only through self-deception and trust in the status quo can it be believed that slow and gradual change is better. Revolution doesn't need to be violent or anything like that. But look at MLK. Who said that "A positive justice is preferable to a negative peace" and talked about "The fierce urgency of now"
Also, look at Malcolm Gladwell's work on the Flynn effect, and you see it's not so much that we're getting "smarter" as we are becoming "more modern" and our thinking becomes more abstract. We are better at solving problems we confront on a day-to-day basis, but if you threw us out in the jungle we'd be dead in a week.
A truly rational person would evaluate the situation and try to determine if revolution or incremental change is a better way of solving each problem.
On healthcare, for example, revolutionary change and upheaval is certainly preferable to the sort of gradual incrementalism we've had for the past 15 years. A switch to a Universal Healthcare system would save countless lives and improve the economy.
Similarly, with bank nationalization we could go big and kill the Zombie banks, or we could tinker with them for decades, while the economy molders.
Being rational means examining the available evidence and coming to a conclusion. It doesn't mean incrementalism, if that is in fact not the best method.
I dislike people who are dishonest, though. I find that obnoxious. And it is true that there are progressives who play it "fast and lose" with the truth. Those people drive me nuts.
Hear hear!
Count me in as a "rational progressive." Thanks for the distinctions.
I definitely on board with you on the fault lines, and on your side, Nate, but its hard not to see this post more than anything as justification for firing a couple shots at David Sirota.
"I'm going to agree that the "radical progressive" category above is something almost nobody would self-identify with,.."
Uuh 'self identification' is irrelevant in accurate descriptions of phenomena patterns. Most folks have ego's that prevent the epiphany moment where one says "..yeah, I'm an idiot."
But a capacity to do that now and then is the precondition for epiphany and breakthrough.
"The 'Rationalists', left to their own devices, would never actually change anything. Anytime an emergency arose, they would call a committee meeting."
Uuh you just landed in a pile of process fucks and assumed it was rationalists. Trust me we want to get stuff done and come armed with the research to wade in and do out without being heedless and foolhardy. For incrementalism, see 'centrists'.
Remember, outcomes..outcomes.
Just awesome, Nate. Count me in as a rational progressive, although I do agree with others that not many of the radical progressives are likely to self-identify as such. Still, their diaries are a dime a dozen on Daily Kos, and I bet you could devise an objective diagnostic test pretty easily. Issues like that Donnie McClurkin fiasco a year and a half ago should make it easy to distinguish between the rational progressives (who thought McClurkin was wrong but his minor participation in one event wasn't the end of the world) and radical progressives (who thought Barack Obama should be tarred and feathered for being seen in the same room with the guy).
Another angle you might take on this is that radical progressives seem to be driven by runaway empathy. Just look at the recent PETA campaign to rename fish to "sea kittens," which is proof positive of your assertion that conservatives don't have a monopoly on idiotic ideas.
All of this talk about the merits of radical politics is ridiculous. We are not in the midst of some violent revolution and we are not on the brink of any sort of massive change. There will be a significant shift in the progression of politics, but there's no fire under anyone's ass in the real world, kids.
If this were actually a time for the radical progressives to make actual change, they wouldn't have simply reverted to their 'normative', 'rectionary', 'populist', 'process-oriented' stimulus package.
Nothing has been solved. Nothing of value has been lost. Stop talking about fire and brimstone.
I find myself disincluded (I almost typed left out) in your dichotomy, particularly by your sticking Marxist on the one side. That much was something of a smear, though you may not have intended it as such.
I don't share Marx's pathological class hatred, which he picked up from the British. I see a structural problem in our social system, in that immense aggregations of power have been introduced without real human control. That has led to the dumbing down of the electorate through commercialized media and schools, to the buying of Congress and the previous Executive by profiteers, and to cancer-like endless and quick profit scenarios which have rendered much business management incompetent.
What I see you missing is the role of the social mechanism called the business corporation in western democracies. The ever-candid Germans label this creature GmbH, "society with diminished responsibility." When this creature is linked to a fantastic merchandizing dogma that a well run company must always increase profits every quarter, you get sharks: organizations with the wealth of many nations, which are devoted to externalizing all social responsibilities and plundering common resources so that they can keep building the quarterly uber-bucks. Not even a conscientious CEO can run against this tide, unless he or she has major ownership as well.
And what does it do to our society? It buys congressmen, it buys the airways for sales-at-all-costs propaganda, if it's a financial institution it takes extraordinary risks which it conceals as long as possible until... NOW.
Your rational progressives have had what to say about this in the past twenty years? I've heard basically nothing. I've heard a lot of cogent and urgent calls from more radical progressives, none of them Marxists, though of course there are Marxists out there, too. I could care less about them. (A "communism" in Marx's sense is a deeply anti-social fraud.)
So take another look. I have no idea who David Sirota is. If all this is a personal vendetta, get over it, both of you. That kind of infighting only serves the two-faced Whigs in the House and Senate.
What Nate describes as rational progressivism is traditional liberalism. It does have it's roots in the Enlightenment. So does radicalism (anarchism, socialism, communism). The principal difference, historically, between these two Enlightenment streams is that liberalism was the ideology born of the middle classes: business. In other words, those desiring to acquire democratic rights for themselves to the exclusion of those "beneath" them. Recall, please, how many of the Founding Fathers were slave owners. Radicalism, on the other hand, was the ideology born of the workers: those exploited by business. In other words, those desiring democratic rights, including the economic sphere, for all. So, of course, liberalism positions itself as rational, and radicalism as irrational. It's important that the workers be seen as irrational in their desire to end their exploitation. No matter how much liberals may wish it weren't so, in due time, capitalism will give way to another mode of economic organization, just as feudalism was supplanted by capitalism. Sounds pretty rational to me.
Your two poles may be a nice conversation starter, and some of it rings true, but some of the categories are arbitrary. E.g. if you'd switched 'credulous' and 'cynical', it would make just as much sense as the current list. They're just credulous and cynical about different things.
Are there any empirical studies to check your groupings? Some sort of survey factor analysis?
More importantly, any good empiricist knows that movements with passion harness a sort of power unavailable to cerebral movements. So consistent rational progressivism leads to some radical progressivism.
My personal opinion is that the sweet spot is somewhere in between. After all politics is obviously both a battle of wills and of ideas.
*
Sirota = Clown
And I apologize to all Clowns for lumping Sirota in your profession.
Thanks for this, Nate. The next time I have to explain to people why Glenn Greenwald makes me uncomfortable even when I agree with him, I'm just going to forward them this post.
As an American history scholar, I'll add that the battle between the two progressive traditions is often much more evident in hindsight. For example, in a lot of ways, the transition from one to the other explains the trajectory of the Civil Rights movement. What's truly interesting, however, is how the fight has continued to the present day - a lot of radical historians, for instance, have tried to reemphasize MLK's socialist leanings and downplay his role in the eventual acceptance of civil rights in order to argue that it was the radical side of the movement that got things done.
For my part, I completely agree with you. I stopped calling myself a liberal years ago - progressive seemed so much more appropriate, as the word itself suggests political action should be driven by measurable progress, not ideals. And the first step of understanding how to move forward is understanding where we stand now - meaning we have to understand why things the way they are. Many of my friends think I'm a closet conservative, because when they complain about some injustice, my first reaction is usually to say "But on another level, it makes sense that would happen - it's caused by X or Y." It's nice to be reminded that I'm not the only one thinking that way.
I'm fine with labeling myself a radical. The problem with your description of rationality is that it tolerates an extreme degree of inequality, suffering, corruption, while we are busy "compromising."
On many issues this can not be tolerated, nor is it rational unless you are to say something of a limosuine liberal. The same person who is not directly kept down by our abomination of a society can easily wait to fix things "until we get to it...".
I'm hardly downtrodden, but IMHO, this isn't not an intellectually honest distinction Nate.
There is never not a time for mass movements. All progressive change happens through mass movements. There is no other way to oppose the reactionaries. I like the work Nate is doing. But he's wrong.
JHB,
Trust me, it is easy to rail against a pernicious oligarchy that has just wrecked America without being a shrilly.
In fact, there is some momentum in that direction but the Bush wreckage has left such a hilariously intractable mess that it does the work of creating massive popular discontent and an urge to lynch the oligarchs, a fate they may well deserve.
I run into Stadtler regularly at an amazing blog called 'Calculated Risk but I don't comment often as it is a busy place.
Banksters just contrived an amazing way to make hostages of most Americans. We are sliding into a disastrous abyss that will change grubby greedy idiot Moronica forever.
I prefer to be optimistic and kindly about this as I am poor by choice and can't wait to see the epiphany that levels all the bullshit consumer fool planet wrecking Moronican dream.
Being poor is really pretty cool as you can have a fairly stress free life if you know how to be poor well.
The bank mess is a hoot. Lewis Raineri invented the CDO when he worked for Solomon Brothers in the early 80's. Who knew that it would become a death bomb?
Mortgage securitization paper is now the lynch pin of our demise as the fat bully Moronica since the toxic CDO's are impossible to unwind.
Nothing will be as it was tomorrow. America is over forever as some obnoxious force in planetary life.
The oligarchs managed to wreck most planetary economies by peddling this toxic paper everywhere.
We have strange problems. The moronicans who bought a stupid McMansion they couldn't really afford should just walk and learn to be poor well.
The major banks who allowed this should just die and be picked apart by vultures.
The world will breathe a sigh of relief when it no longer has to put up with our absurd hogging shit as the hand of law is coming down and the paradigm of stupid heartless material status foolishness is over.
It will be wonderful to see a chastened hardship wise America reemerge from the ashes of fat and stupid moronica and us rationalists are already going nuts on ways to handle the transition to an honest sustainability as it is a fairly sweet and potentially productive landmass.
this is an interesting article, but I think it necessarily oversimplifies what's going on. Every political ideology has members who exist on the margins of society, who are more "radical" than the rest.
But firstly, let's say we applied this ideology to the American Revolution. Was George Washington a "rational" progressive, or was he a "radical" one? He certainly wasn't willing to trust King George's system, or to trust British rule. And yet in our own society, we lionize him as a great visionary.
What this article doesn't encapsulate is the fact that those "radicals" exist both to encourage dialogue with the "rational" progressives (by showing the alternative to those opposed to change), as well as to achieve fundamental change when the process is overwhelmed by irreconcilable differences. A good example of this, is the Civil Rights movement. Where the Black Panthers and Malcom X helped make Dr. King's movement more palatable to the state and the majority.
Bravo, bravo, Nate.
And as a fellow thinker, I'm pleased that you are one of the leading voices of Rational Progressivism in the web-sphere.
Although, to be fair, I would miss a world without a healthy balance of Radical Progressivism to help round up the troops for certain causes.
After all, America (for better or for worse -- I'll leave that debate alone) was founded by Radical Progressives!
Pretty cool Nate. I think it's a good characterization of a slight divide within the Left, a divide that shouldn't be fatal or anything, but one that we should all be carefully aware of in our discourse.
Of course, as a "homer" for the 'Rational' type, you're language is going to reflect a bit more sympathy for that side. But like with Daniel Dennett and his identification of the "Bright" community, that's your right as the author, and its up to those in the "Radical Progressive" camp to develop their own language/label if they want to participate in a discussion like this (fuzzy's "liberal populism" suggestion for example)... but that's not to say that all of us don't know exactly what you're talking about.
I guess a mix of both types would be the best way. The pure rational progressivism would lead to fascism (eugenics, economic darwinism). You need to have a normative framework to limit the principle of rationality if you want to live in a free society.
It's also possible that an idea, such as monetarism, turns out to be flawed even though it had been regarded as a scientific advancement for quite some time, so you need a "backbone" to rely on.
But yes, in the long run (centuries, not decades) humanity as a whole is becoming smarter, and rationality should rule radicalism, not the other way round.
I believe that conservatism is a kind of luxury, a holiday from progressivism you can afford for some time, but if it governs for too long, radicalism will grow stronger than rationality and a revolution takes place.
I guess Nate has been angry about the radical left since they rallied against the bank bailout (well, possibly even before that), but I can also understand that there is a strong urge on the left to overcome the Reagan era conservatism rather quickly. Populists like Sirota try to exploit that urge, there will always be those guys... but there's probably no real harm coming from them either, thanks to the competetive electoral system. Similarly, if populists on the right rally against every tiny bit of change people will abandon them - they are doing it right at the moment, and these demagogues end up being isolated within their tiny loyal echo chamber.
"Rational progressivism" vs "radical progressivism" is a false dichotomy. It omits the socialist alternative, on the erroneous (considering the success of anarchism in Russia, Spain, etc.) grounds that it is unrealistic, or, worse yet, uses the socialism = Leninism strawman.
"After all, America (for better or for worse -- I'll leave that debate alone) was founded by Radical Progressives!"
Uuh, America was not founded by Radical Progressives.
It was founded by a bunch of vain shitheads with plaster powder in their hair who were pissed because the motherland wanted too much of a money cut.
It was founded by ignorant fuckheads who figured it was bitchin to make other humans work for free cause they weren't 'white'.
It was founded by destructive greedy morons who wrecked a continent that Red Earth people kept pristine and wonderful since Jesus was alive.I call us the Euromutts.
Amen. I actually liked The Uprising as a piece of writing, and I learned from it, but I find that Sirota increasingly punches the wrong buttons for me. Count me in the "rational progressive" column.
At the same time, I think there is something to the notion of an "inside" versus "outside" critique of the system that may not be captured clearly by your categories. Pressure from outside agitators, who shrill almost by definition, can be an important counter-balance to the tendency of rational progressives to get co-opted or captured by the system. I may be a rational progressive, but I recognize the need for radical progressives. It is good for us to warn them about the dangers of going too far, and it is good for them to warn us about the dangers of not going far enough.
count me on the rational side.
Studying history, I've seen too many times when a radical solution brought a devastating reaction.
For instance, the Reformation to the church brought the Counter-Reformation in the church, and with that, Protestants were burned at the stake (Huguenots, for example). Reform of the Catholic church was set back by centuries, and it still is in need of more reforms (the current dispute with members of the Society of St. Pius X, as an example).
The French Revolution brought down the French monarchy, but gave rise to the dictator Napoleon Bonaparte. Oh, and the Bourbon Dynasty came back to power for a while after Napoleon.
The radical solution of attempting to destroy the war-like tendencies of Germany after World War I (crushing war reparations estimated to be paid through 1988, forced radical reorganization of the German government without asking, nor getting, input from the Germans, etc.) allowed the reactionary forces to regain power in the form of Adolph Hitler, and the horrors of World War II. Contrast that with what happened after World War II, when Germany (at least the western portion) was given a hand up (along with certain obligations), not a complete slap down.
Civil rights, where the non-violence of Gandhi led to the freedom of India, while the bloody revolts advocated by others led to crack downs by the British, with massive loss of life.
Where would civil rights be today if the 'radical Republicans' had not imposed such draconian measures on the states that seceded? By the weight of the measures, the KKK was born, which developed into the Jim Crow era at the end of the 19th century that finally was ended largely because of the Gandhi-inspired non-violent leadership of MLK Jr. and the legislation pushed through by LBJ, thus enforcing the Constitutional Amendments that had been passed 100 years prior.
How much progress did the Russian Revolution of 1905 accomplish? The Tsar became more reactionary, and more authoritarian after that revolution, which led to even more radical revolts through the February Revolution of 1917, and even more crackdowns and more ruthless rule on the part of the Tsar.
That does NOT mean that sometimes radical ideas are to be thrown out as non-sense and non-starters. The American Revolution is one example, one of the only, if not THE only, revolutions that didn't destroy itself as a result of it's radicalism (see the French Revolution; Russian Revolution; Mexican Revolution; etc. for examples). Why didn't it destroy itself? Some tempering of the radicalism was accomplished in the immediate aftermath of the surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown, and later the compromises that allowed the Constitution to be created.
Incremental change has a much higher probability of lasting than sudden, earthquake-like, radical change, IMO. That is not to say that some radicalism is not needed, but it must be tempered to have more assurance that the change does not create a massive and (usually) violent reaction to that change.
Here's some more of your categories which seem suspect- perhaps based on some transient reaction to a few other people.
"conversational vs. action-oriented". You've never sat through a leftist talk meeting? (Lucky!) Or seen technocrats just start implementing stuff? (E.g. Robert Moses)
The rationalist "sees ideology as malleable" Yet your current post seems self-refuting on that.
The radical is "process-oriented" and the "rational" is "outcome-oriented"? You've never heard the rationalists lecture the radicals about the importance of doing things properly within the system?
I think when we're done winnowing your list to things which have some empirical stability, it'll be much tighter. In some cases it's tautological- obviously 'reformative' goes with 'incrementalist', etc.
Still, even pared down, there's something to what you're saying. After an evening with self-righteous pc types, it can seem very vivid. A good dose of Tom Friedman (speaking of "impractical, self-righteous, ... demagogic, naïve and/or anti-intellectual" can restore a more balanced level of frustration with both sides.
"I guess a mix of both types would be the best way. The pure rational progressivism would lead to fascism (eugenics, economic darwinism)."
Uuh Alex S. Please explain how rational lead us to these benighted pathways.
When you toss out a stinker like that you need to give us some meat. We want the causality.. the details.. the data.
One problem with the moron 'radical' commentariat is this laziness. Oh great, I can just assert some goddamn ridiculous thing in a blog comment page that I pulled from my ass and all are supposed to applaud the structural beauty of my turd.
Nice post. I don't know that there's a proper label for my politics, but "rational progressive" is as close as anything. It's never a good thing to be so tied to any given idea that you won't reconsider it.
Totally off-topic, but did anyone else see that "Buy American" logo on the Open Left diary and think of Goatse?
Mike in Maryland, your analysis of history is a little weird. In effect, you're saying revolution is bad because the people who want to stay in power will get mad and slaughter you. So, just let them grind you into non-existent instead. Or, maybe we can ask nicely. Revolutions happen because people get fed up and see no other way. Few people willingly choose the violent road. It's only choice made after being the target of ruling class violence for a good long time. You're not making sense.
put another way, the "false dichotomy" another commenter mentioned is really this: why is it not rational, under certain circumstances, to be radical?
I mean, when you are dealing with fundamental human rights, for example, particularly when they impact you or someone you love, it's not rational to allow each day to pass while a grave injustice is occuring. For example, I would never ask a slave to expect their freedom "incrementally." Understandably, such powerful issues require radical change. And it's perfectly rational under such circumstances to seek such change.
Well here's my version of the lefty shoegazing hair splitting.
What you call "Rational progressivism", I would just call "progressivism", full stop. Your "Radical progressives" are who I think of as liberals.
"Radical progressivism" sounds suspiciously like the left wing liberalism of the 60s, and you even go there by associating it with Marxist ideas about social change.
When I think of a true liberal, I think Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich. When I think of a true progressive, I think of Barack Obama.
ymmv.
Nate - One of the Field Hands asked me what I thought of your essay and I typed in this response to him, which I'll share with your readers and you:
Nate's post reminds me of the saying, "there are two kinds of people in the world: those that think there are two kinds of people in the world, and those that don't."
In his "rational progressivism" vs. "radical progressivism" dialectic, I'm all over the map on both sides of it. I think reformative change can make paths to transformative change. I don't see them in conflict with each other. I think one can be outcome oriented and process oriented, just like one can walk and chew gum at the same time.
I'm clearly with Nate in the empirical tendency and with seeing ideology as malleable (if we learned anything from the 20th century it's that ideology too easily becomes dogma or fundamentalism, turns brittle and then it snaps, too often violently). I'm also with Nate among optimists, but I believe one can be conversational and action-oriented at the same moment.
Finally, I see no conflict between incremental change and radical change. Here's an example: an incremental lessening of state repression can make it possible for more people to step forward and make bigger change. The first is often necessary for the second.
Where do those tendencies put me in Nate's terminology? I haven't the foggiest, nor do I care much about labels.
That said, I think Nate is a brilliant guy and a great human being. And I think the guy he's smacking down is analytically slow and not a good person. And I believe great radical change comes from working with the first kind as allies and not with the latter.
This is dead on. I was just thinking about this distinction the other day in the context of a little power struggle that's going on in the local politics where I'm from. I fit the bill perfectly for what you'd call a "rational progressive," but I think that's just a term we use to refer to ourselves since we, from our perspective, are rational. In my experience, "radical progressives" don't think of themselves as radical and we as rational; instead, I they see themselves as "true" progressives and people like us as a bit wishy-washy.
And then, of course, there are the folks who act like radical progressives simply to exploit populist outrage about the issue of the day for their own personal political advancement. But that's another discussion.
It would appear that Ajagbe is a radical who is "prone to demagoguery", not to reason.
As to s5's screech, let me just state that I don't think of people who have a political philosophy to the right of me as 'conservative'. I think of them as troglodytes or reactionary kooks. And many have one foot in each of those camps.
I usually hate blogs, because they just blather to make people comment and earn their ad revenue, this is not such a blog. Nate Silver is a journalist, he brings credence to this argument for many other bloggers and this is an amazing article.
You have given me another way to categorize my congressman, Peter DeFazio(idiot was my first choice, followed by symbolic, posturing fool). He was the sole 'progressive' Democrat to vote against the stimulus package last week. I find his explanations of this vote to ring hollow, but then I lean very much to the rational. This is a guy who has 30 years in DC and is acting as if a protest vote is somehow responsible and effective. My analysis is that he has just made it very clear that he is an ineffective legislator and that his peers and the President can ignore him to little ill effect. I call them Symbolic Liberals. Posturing, with little effort to actually do the hard work needed to make incremental change.
Mike in Maryland, where exactly is the demagoguery? That's not a response. My critique stands.
I really don't have time for David Sirota's schtick, but he's not a credible radical.
You are both in Chicago, I imagine you almost couldn't help but know each other. Is that what this is about? Some personal beef that you decided to blow up into some wierd red-baiting bullshit?
When you pick up the good ole fratricidal weapon of the left to go after people it's not really credible to aim it at. What you have in your sights is Sirota and the old PUMA pac. The idea that they are some sort of left vangaurd is so ridiculous you should be ashamed of yourself.
You could criticize them for a host of reasons but you were lazy and it's such a bad liberal, knee-jerk habit to turn your enemies in as commies you couldn't resist.
I sincerely hope you rethink this and apologize for the entire thesis and wack at them on their real demerits and disavow all this bullshit.
This is actually quite possibly the worst post I have seen on this site. I'm not saying that Marxian philosophy has to have a monopoly on reason (though the "other side" is claiming that anyone who follows Marx is not acting 'rationally'); but I'd hope people would actually be able to make a judgment after actually having read Marx, which it is quite obvious most (all?) people here have not done. Capital (Vols 1 through 3)? Grundrisse? German Ideology? 18th Brumaire? Early Writings? Poverty of Philosophy?-- Material dialectics all heavily grounded in both Aristotelian Philosophy (as is Enlightenment Philosophy) and Hegelian approaches to history. In fact, I think it might be more accurate to call nearly the entire academic field of Philosophy (Continental, not Analytical) as to be Marxist or post-Marxist. Most contemporary political philosophers/followers of Marx (Hardt, Negri, Zizek, Jameson, Harvey) are far from cynical-- Utopian might be closer to the truth. In fact, all of those philosophers would say Marxism falls closer to the definition of "rational" progressivism here-- claiming we actually need to accelerate past the obsolete social relation known as capitalism.
The lead post here does not clarify; it obscures. If you all want to disagree with Marx, fine. At least be able to say you have read him.
Whoa, Nate....you're getting all philosophical/analytical...18th century Enlightenment. I don't come to you for this kind of heavy reading.
Nate
I liked your post in general. They reminded me of Plato's Republic. However, many of the "attributes" are less factual and more relative to one's own position. Your radicalist might be my rationalist or vice versa.
For example, incrementalist v. radical/reactionary. One could flip it around and call it "marginalist" v. "fundemantlist", that is desiring changes at the margins as opposed to changes at the foundation. Marginalist wants the Fed to lower interest rates, fundamentalist wants nationalization of banks that fail.
It seems to me that BOTH groups are quite necessary to combat the conservative and repressive natures of those with power. One group makes things marginally better while another group hopefully plays the true Socratic role of commenting about the flaws of society. The current phrase that approximates this is "Speak to Power".
Your description of "radicals" fits neatly in the satire of Socrates in "The Clouds" by Aristophanes. However, without the Socrates, Upton Sinclairs, Frederick Douglasses, Ralph Naders, Dr Seusses, etc. of the world to hold a mirror to our society, we indeed become navel-gazers.
(but if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow)
Marjin, I'm in the process of reading Capital and it's absolutely spooky how topical it is.
If what I said implied that Marxists are worth shooting, that wasn't what I meant. I've got problems with contemporary Marxists as they exist, but that's not Sirota, or openleft or fucking Ralph Nader and Dennis Kucinich as someone helpfully added into the evil column.
As a Rational Progressive and a Quaker I want to thank you for including church groups at the end of your post.
So often, because churches have gotten it wrong,it is easy to overlook that there are church groups that feed and shelter the homeless, work hard to promote peaceful solutions to conflict around the world, and generally look out for their fellow humans.
What I believe rational progressives have in common, spiritual or not, is that we see that there is a light that shines in all living things.
Thanks, Nate, for another thoughtful post.
Nate,
Love ya but you swung and missed on this one. Your labels are biased. "Rational" - my how precious. Who doesn't want to be rational or least thought of as rational? Stacking the deck are we? Tsk Tsk.
How about a more modern range of labels?
At least on the left we have this range of possible labels : (1) defensive (2) compromising (3) bargaining but hopeful (4) hard bargaining (5) uncompromising, and (6) aggressive.
Your definition of "Rational" seems to come closest to "compromising."
And yes, labels do matter. That is why you structured your post around the ancient labels of "rational" and "radical."
Human law and natural law are two different things.
Nature's laws are enforced equally, on all people at all times, and obedience to them is compulsory. Gravity works on everyone, time passes despite our best efforts to halt it, and you can never travel to the past. No lawyer is needed, because you cannot violate these laws. They simply are.
Man's laws are something very different. They're not enforced universally or evenly. We require lawyers because they can and frequently are broken. They depend largely on the whim of the society that birthed them. Attempts to justify them based on tradition or social norm equivocate antiquity with nature. And those that attempt to change such laws are condemned as radicals. Those that preserve them are hailed as rationalists.
And yet, that which is traditional is not inherently good, and that which is new is not inherently evil. In the antebellum period, the legislature passed the Fugitive Slave Act to preserve the 'peculiar tradition' of slavery and prevent Northerners from assisting runaway Blacks in gaining passage to Canada. It was traditional. it was legal. It was even considered 'rational'.
Looking back at that period, I, a Southerner, feel intense shame even to the point of horror. Such an unimaginable evil codified into law to assist those slaveholders dwelling here so long ago. Though my ancestors had not yet arrived in America at the time, it is a collective guilt anyone with a connection to this place feels, much as the Germans, even those too young to have participated int he events of WW2, feel a sense of horror and shame at the activities of their forebears.
That which is legal is not neccesarily good. And, those who violated the Fugitive Slave Act did so illegally. In the face of tradition, irrationally. They did not choose the gradualist approach advocated here, but an approach driven less by the deliberative process and more by their conscience. they saw this country engaged in a horrifying evil, and chose not to be a part of it, to undermine it even, in hopes that the good would shine through the cracks.
Eventually their defiance would lead to a cataclysmic event that claimed more lives than any other war in which we have engaged. One could say such radical change was amoral. Others would say it was unfortunate that those intent on being rational, on preserving those antiquated traditions without any consideration of the morality of doing so, could not be brought themselves to reason, and had to be dragged there by force.
In the end, a great evil was ended. true, Jim Crow and the KKK would mar our landscape for generations to follow, but the cracks of light that shone though led to an America where we can even elect as President someone who, had those radical conductors of the Underground Railroad not been so defiant, would not have been electable as President, rather, would have been sold into slavery down here.
I am grateful for those brave radicals that chose to defy evil, no matter how traditional, even at the price of you condemning them as radicals.
I only wish we were all so radical to as stand up for human rights in the face of evil.
When the laws of man are out of synch with the laws of nature, a corrective action must be taken to rectify the matter. The discord between them may not be immediately obvious, and sometimes it can take a very long time before anyone realizes it exists. The time in which that discord has persisted is no excuse for its preservation.
All men are born equal, yet everywhere he is in chains. Those chains were not put there by nature, but by man. We sometimes forget that our concepts of reality are not reality itself. Our petty predjudices, fears, resentments and preferences are all artifacts of our imperfect senses and the mind that attempts to fill in the whys and hows behind what we see to the best of it's capacity. Which is both limited and flawed. Therefore, all products of our minds are highly suspect. As such, we must never cease to re-examine them, to sniff out which were based on nature, and which are based upon nonsense.
Question everything, above all yourself. If you allow yourself to slip too far down the hole of 'that,s just the way it is' and the inaction that inevitably follows.
Things are as we will them to be, and therefore we can and must will them toward ever increasing equity. We must resolve that, as a society, we will ever chase the good, and ever flee our own evil tendencies. No-one has ever lived that has not wanted at some point to commit a great evil. hen this sadistic glee shines int he eyes of the many, great evil becomes the law.
A most unnatural law.
"They tried to get me to hate white people, but someone would always come along and spoil it."--Thelonious Monk
Gandhi's and King's examples should be studied by those who would oppose force with force, or hatred with hatred. I'm all over the rational/radical map, but to the extent that the radical side is characterized by a more extreme emotionality, it is likely to misidentify the proper goal of reform, which is to mitigate suffering and abuse.
There are obvious reasons why crime victims or their families are not allowed to punish criminals themselves, but the situation is more difficult when large segments (or even the majority) of the population are victimized by others. Who can stand outside such a situation? That's where rationality comes in.
There's a saying in Aikido: "Neutralize the attack, not the attacker." In a life-or-death situation, there may be few options. Otherwise, try not to go overboard with the reprisals.
I'm a liberal. I've never called myself a progressive. When I first started noticing the term "progressive" turning up on the "left-right" spectrum (such as in political polls), I figured it was a term used by liberals who were tired of being flogged as liberals by the radical right. (Yes, I knew about the Progressive Movement, but I'm talking about the late 20th C progressive here.)
I am very pro-union and believe organization and group action -- not just words -- are needed to bring about substantial socio-political progress. But I am wary of crowds. Their direction and their consequences are too unpredictable, and they often give rise to repressive counter-measures (which anarchists often view as a positive step toward raising consciousness of the masses). So action has to be measured. (I'm deliberately not picking the oxymoronic phrase, "spontaneity must be planned").
Now along comes Nate with a concept, a synthesis of liberal and progressive ideas, that sort of fits me: rational progressive. I find the concept attractive because it fits my own antipathy towards dogma. Truth is discoverable, not asserted as a first premise.
But I do think some explicit principles must be axiomatic in this ideology, such as the fundamental equality of all people under the law and a commitment to human dignity and human rights. Although these seem implicit in Nate's statement about the need to "spread the wealth" (my words, not his words), were they spelled out as a criterion for judging whether political and social change (and action to bring them about) is "progressive," then I would be even more comfortable with the label "rational progressive."
Ed M. or anyone else who wants to read Marx:
David Harvey (preeminent Academic Geographer, professor at CUNY) is giving his classes for free at http://davidharvey.org/2009/02/why-the-us-stimulus-package-is-bound-to-fail/
Right now, they are reading _Capital_ volume 1.
"Your labels are biased. "Rational" - my how precious. Who doesn't want to be rational or least thought of as rational? Stacking the deck are we? Tsk Tsk."
If you are going to be that patronizing (or, if you like labels - snotty) you had better bring a better argument than that to the table.
One group being labeled 'rational' doesn't preclude anyone from another group from being rational.
And aside from the silliness of thinking a label implies monopoly, in practice there are plenty of people who place other values higher than they do reason. I know a lot of people who would choose 'radical' to best describe them.
Also, nothing demands that the two groups be of equal size. In fact, that seems rather unlikely. And it seems to me that the number of people who would rather be called radical than rational is probably reasonably close to the number of people who actually are more more radical than rational.
As a fan of 358, I am disappointed by this post.
This post is a-historical in two ways: First, the Enlightenment birthed not only liberalism but radicalism as well. Second, even in the United States, the Progressive Movement of the early 20th Century, as well as its more radical counterpart, was a complicated phenomenon, made up of diverse intellectual/social/cultural tendencies that couldn’t be bifurcated into two groups, but rather occupied different points along a continuum.
Second, I don’t think it is very “rational” to stereotype an entire group, and it’s an act of hubris (not rationality) to arrogate to one’s own particular group the quality of “rationality.” The corollary of course is that radical progressives are “irrational.” That’s ridiculous, as is labeling them as cynical, etc. What radical progressives do you know? What sample size is this based on? What is the statistically-valid study that supports your analysis? Is the next “rational” post going to call for some kind of purge? Gosh.
The world doesn’t get changed simply because clear thinkers and dispassionate like Nate Silver sits in a computer chair and put some very interesting and important thoughts and studies online. (Like I said, I am a fan, and I thank you Nate for your contributions). We also need radicals pushing the agenda, labor activists helping to build unions, and, yes, community organizers in the street organizing offline at the grassroots.
Human progress isn’t only about the eureka intellectual illumination ignited by the interplay of disembodied (supposedly) rational minds. Yes, we need the thinkers and we need the doers. We need people at the computers in the suites and we need demonstrators on Main Streets.
For a rational offering, this seemed unnecessarily divisive and self-annointing.
Every movement needs both: the radicals to set the ultimate goals, the pragmatists to make real progress toward them. Absent the radicals, a movement is reduced to aimless gamesmanship; lacking pragmatism, a movement never achieves anything. The ideal leader can see the whole forest and also navigate the trees.
(a) it's unproductive to divide people in this way. If you want to call bullshit on Sirota, do so, with substance. Don't generalize and spread FUD. Building a logical framework for an vast ideological chasm around your dislike for Sirota doesn't help your case. It's something Ayn Rand followers would do.
(b) that "rational" column looks an awful lot like DLC/Clinton neoliberal incrementalism. While that ideology has many possible names, I don't think you can accurately call it "progressive" and still have the word mean anything. Based on his actions so far and his stated intent from his campaign onward, Obama's not a progressive, he's a center-left neoliberal. Maybe that's you too. That's OK. You won't be shot for not being sufficiently left wing. We're not GOPs.
@Marjunwalker- I've read a lot of that stuff. Some of Marx's journalism is great, and some of his writings about religion are so poetical as to bring tears to my eyes, but for the most part the philosophy is crap. The alleged mathematical arguments in Capital are, as Pauli would say, not even wrong. E.g. there are key arguments that treat income rates and amounts of capital as if they were quantities with the same dimensions, which they emphatically are not. It's like arguing about which is greater, your current walking speed or the distance to Buffalo.
You inadvertently put your finger on the root of the problem- the Aristotelian and Hegelian foundations. How such dreary pre-Newton (A), pre-Darwin (H) verbiage can seem a virtue is beyond me. Hegel and Aristotle just plain made stuff up.
For all of you getting comfortable with the "progressive" label, here's a wakeup call.
We were all called "liberals" until Squawk Radio, lead by Rush Slackjaw, made "liberals" a dirty word among his flock (coven?). It was the first "L word."
Well, I didn't buy it and remained unabashedly proud that I was a liberal. A lot of other people did, too. But young 'uns, afeared of the practitioners of Squawk Radio, and a lot of lilly livered panty-waisted liberals who were just too frightened to admit who they were, started to use "progressive."
Not me. I am what I was and I am proud of it. I refuse to let Slackjaw and Inanity label me or shame me.
Nate, that's an interesting post, but given how skewed the political spectrum in this country has been toward the right, by comparison with Europe and Canada (for example, still not having universal health insurance), I considered myself a radical in the American context, whereas I'd be a bit left of center in any of those other countries. As George Bernard Shaw said:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
So, rational or "unreasonable" progressivism? I prefer the "unreasonableness" of imagination and (peaceful!) agitation for the "reasonableness" of tweaking around the edges of the status quo. Or, another way to put it is, the mainstreamers who compromise because politics is "the art of the possible" NEED the "unreasonable" radicals to continue pushing forward the agenda and agitating for radical change. Just like FDR needed the Socialist Party, in order to coopt its main planks in the New Deal. Obama would be in a much stronger position if there were a strong Social Democratic party in the U.S. today, so that he could argue that a new New Deal is needed to save capitalism.
Agree with much except your categorical rejection of Marx who, like Freud, gets the short end of the stick far too often in American intellectual circles. Are there bad ideas in Marx? Sure, but most of his work is based on pretty sound "practical progressive" ideas. Marxist advocacy is ideological but Marx when read in context and without the baggage of the historical movements that have rightly or wrongly carried his banner is surprisingly free of radical ideology. The argument can be made, in fact, that we live in an increasingly Marxian world just as he predicted.
"...the Progressive Movemen... couldn’t be bifurcated into two groups, but rather occupied different points along a continuum."
Obviously. Same with liberal and conservative... but the designations have their uses. Subdividing a group helps move TOWARDS viewing these things as a continuum, not away from it.
Y'all need to loosen up a bit. You know as well as I do that Nate does not believe that these are absolute and exclusive categories. I mean, come on.
"The corollary of course is that radical progressives are “irrational.”"
Oh, hogwash. Labels don't demand exclusivity.
I find it nicely ironic that the people so upset with the way that "radical" is being labeled are doing so so... irrationally.
So Nate, the question needs be asked. Do you find the ideas of more radical elements such as myself to be ludicrous? Do you even care what people post in the comments section at all (aside from MR's death threats) or do you take more of a 'I do my thing and you do yours' approach?
I ask this because I see many others in the comments section using this thread as an excuse to blast those of us not as prone to endless committee meetings. Some of them have even suggested that to be a rational progressive, you should drop the progressive part altogether, and become conservative-someone who wants to preserve the status quo.
Now, I have used this site and the information presented here by you and the other posters as a tool for what I perceive as some fairly radical changes-targeting my donations toward the most liberal candidates for office, staying abreast of what bills are before the House and Senate, and therefore of what to harangue my Congressman and Senators over. (If you think I drone on here in your comments section, you should hear the endless drivel I pour on them)
Now, it may thus be that I have used you for purposes counter to what you yourself embrace. Certainly, my recent decision to back Huntsman has most of those calling themselves 'rationalists' ready to slice my throat.
Them, I don't give much of a shit about, but you, this is your webpage. If we are fundamentally in disagreement and my efforts run counter to your philosophy, perhaps then it is time I make myself scarce.
What say you? Should I stay or should I go? I'll interpret silence as a 'who gives a shit' response.
So what category does Deepak Chopra belong to?
Rational, Radical?
Nope, there is a seperate class called spiritual progressiveon the Left.
The Left's answer to the right wing irrational, anti-science, anti-reason fundies.
@STepper: You wrote, "We were all called "liberals" until Squawk Radio, lead by Rush Slackjaw, made "liberals" a dirty word among his flock (coven?). It was the first "L word."
I made that point above, but now the term "progressive" is pretty well ingrained in our discourse and labeling. (At least those on the LEFT use the term progressive, while those on the RIGHT still call us by our good old names.)
However I like the term "rational progressive" and could live with that instead of what I always call myself -- "liberal" -- if it also conveyed the ideas I mentioned, in particular that it has some first principles (e.g., equality under the law, human dignity). I like the term rational progressive because it implies that truth is discoverable, not assumed.
Nate, I am surprised by this post as I've always thought you to be more a populist than i would derive from this. I think many of those prominent figures whom you would call "rational progressives" today, are indeed neo-liberal economists that hide behind their social progressivism in order lump themselves with the populist progressives who are mounting real political capital right now. What is acutely dangerous is for any progressive - radical, rational, or otherwise - to wave a banner of social progress without challenging the methods of the past.
Nate,
While I admire your efforts to stretch beyond your areas of expertise, I think posts like these are where you tend to get into trouble. Some of the distinctions you draw are of course interesting but ultimately I think this is a failed exercise (in part, as others have already said, because your own political beliefs are clearly somewhat imposed on the categories).
A more simple, time-worn dichotomy would be between liberalism (both in the Lockean and the New Deal/Great Society senses) and what has historically been called "the left" (Marxists and anarchists for the most part). In this view the key split at the leftish end of the political spectrum relates to capitalism plain and simple (with "radicals" rejecting it outright or at least being far more skeptical of it). Much else follows from that divide, though obviously any serious discussion about capitalism as a not-so-great system is completely beyond the pale in the mainstream American political conversation, and thus most Americans would be shocked to learn that there's anyone besides Castro who even has a problem with it.
It's worth pointing out that both of the "progressivisms" posited by Nate are eminently products of the Enlightenment. Marx himself is very much a child of the Enlightenment, and (interestingly) particularly of Enlightenment-era concerns about "progress" (a word which has its own complex etymology). I also found it a little bit hilarious to see the attributes "empirical" and "seeks synthesis" in the category supposedly NOT influenced by Marxism (for reasons which should be obvious).
As someone else pointed out above, one can't help but conclude that Nate and most of the folks here have little or no familiarity with Marx (or, I'm guessing, much political theory in general). That's a pity, and while I'm not a Marxist (IANAM?), I'd say any "progressive" of any stripe should make a point of engaging seriously with his thought. Indeed many radicals do more than simply "flirt with Marxist modes of discourse" (Nate's rather derisive phrasing) - they openly employ them. Politically and/or intellectually there's nothing at all wrong with that (if you really want to rail against Marxist discourse, you might start by writing angry letters to every sociology department in the Western world). Personally I'll take Marxian "modes of discourse" over Milton Friedmanite modes any day.
The repeated assertion that people who don't respect Marx must not have read him is absurd. (And irrational, humorously.)
It is possible to have disdain for Marxists even after having studied him. Some would argue that it is probable.
You sound like fans of Dianetics or Atlas Shrugged. Whether or not you believe it, you can both "get it" and disagree with it.
Rationalism recognizes that government is not always the place to initiate big change in societal norms. Sometimes society changes on its own. Even if McCain had won and served two terms, America would still be more progressive in 2016 than in 2008. Rationalism seeks incremental change. Healthcare reform in this country, for example, will likely come through incremental change -- SCHIP is just the first step. We may be 20 years away from a singe player system. Don't Ask, Don't Tell is the same thing: America probably wasn't ready for radical change in the early 90's, but it is now. I'm ok with this. Government just needs to be ready to capitalize on the changing societal norms as they ripen. Gay marriage is still 20 years away, but civil unions are only 5. Get it?
Nate one of your best columns ever. It's not right and left it's rational thinkers and emotional thinkers. I care much more how a person thinks than their nominal ideology on right and left. Both ends of the ideological spectrum has these extremes.
I just think this like most of what passes for thought from you pretty lazy.
You are like most of the math geeks I knew in college. Great with numbers, wanting to reduce a complicated world to the things you understand.
I'm an ultra-LIBERAL.I consider the term "progressive" a euphemism adopted by faint-hearted liberals when Republicans somehow made "liberal" a dirty word.
I think Nate's post is nothing but a semantic word game,and a destructive one.I won't play.I'm disappointed so many of you are.
@John:
"The repeated assertion that people who don't respect Marx must not have read him is absurd. (And irrational, humorously.)"
Don't think that's what I or anyone else here are saying. Of course you can read Marx and disagree with him. I do not think you can read Marx and claim his philosophy is not based in the western tradition of enlightenment reason, nor do I think you can merely dismiss the philosophy attached to his name without having read the texts that compose this philosophy. Sound reasonable?
Again, disappointing post. However, I still consider myself a big 538 fan, and would grab a beer with most of the folks on this blog anytime. Atlanta pizza feed anyone? ;)
follow up point:
Charles Lemos (over at mydd.com) and i had this conversation the other night.
I am actually a true blue neoliberal, or, at least I used to be.
I still am very much a moderate. I am probably to the right of you in a social democratic sense of the word Nate.
But, that's when a democracy is working. the problem we face right now are not ones of left versus right- they are the same problems that were faced in the pre anti trust era when the oligarchs threatened to take over. It was actually a moderate Republicans who proposed some radical solutions to address the concentration of power.
Yet, where do people like he and I fit into your model? After all I want to save capitalism from its worse variant rather than create some communist utopia. yet- would you be surprised to know that I want to nationalize the banks (temporarily) to break them up so that we can not be a place of banks being too big to fail? To me- the most anti-capitalism system we could possibly have is the one we have right now. One where power is so concentrated that innovation is not possible, and the normal market forces are destroyed.
In many ways, what is existing right now is the most radical thing I can imagine from a moderate stand point. Yet, where do I fit on your scale? That's why it's lazy. You don't get why some of us are considering radical ideas. Not because we want to do so. But because to save capitalism, we must.
Opus- yeah, the more this post soaks in the shallower it seems. There's some topic there, but it deserves better than Readers' Digest treatment.
Just to add to the list of arbitrary associations in Nate's columns: In slightly different contexts, people gripe that the radicals have too much optimism, i.e. lack a 'tragic sense'.
Great post. Another characteristic of radicals is a too easy subscription to conspiracy theories. Not that there aren't conspiracies, just that the radicals I know are all too ready to jump on the bandwagon, which tends to discredit not only them but the more moderate amongst us. The apparent push towards action tends to undermine real progress.
Right on target. And I know this from experience. I grew up the daughter of a labor organizer and an art teacher. My father is the child of parents who helped to found the "Workman's Circle" in Washington DC, which was itself tied to Jewish unions, the Yiddish labor press, and the Socialist Party.
In other words, I'm a lefty by blood.
But I'm also goal-oriented, pragmatic, willing to compromise, and somewhat open to opposing points of view (within reason).
And here in my adopted home town of Venice, CA, amongst some of our more flamboyant Peace and Freedom Party neighbors, that makes me in league with George Bush.
I can always find these folks at peace rallies on the boardwalk, or yelling at neighborhood council meetings. But in the 13 years I've lived here, I've never seen them accomplish much, and in fact seen most of the local causes they champion wither and die on the vine, mostly because they've alienated folks like me who might have started out sympathetic to their cause but ended up put off by the endless confrontation and drama.
I've had this theory that if you took the most radical elements of the left and right, and put them on a continuum of political thought, and formed the continuum into a circle, they would be the point where that circle joined - and would be indistinguishable from one another, with many shared characteristics:
Intolerance of another person's choices
Unable to see another point of view
Desire to interfere in the personal freedoms of groups or individuals they don't identify with
Demonizing and dehumanizing groups or individuals they don't identify with
Stereotyping
If by rational progressive you are referring to the neo-liberal school of economics propped up by Geithner and Summers, count me out. I consider myself to be rational, populist, and cynical. But, I do believe that our ideas are better and when there is a clear distinction between the two sides our ideas will win. It seems you made this diagram to insult a certain brand of progressivism that you find distasteful. If there was ever a time to jettison incrementalism and forge ahead with transformative change, it would be now.
All this talk about Marx reminds me of something I heard many years ago.
Boil down Marx's philosophy, and you get "From each as they can give, to each as they need."
That is exactly the same philosophy that the earliest Christian community had from the days when Christianity was centered in and around Jerusalem through the early 'underground' church in Rome. Read up on St. Stephen the Martyr, the first Christian martyr, martyrdom in circa 34 CE.
One could say that the Christian Church betrayed one of their earliest philosophies. Or one could say that that early philosophy was one of circumstance, not of faith. Either way, that early philosophy predated Marx by some 1800 years.
(It will be interesting to see how the 'radical progressives' defending Marx tear apart this discussion about him. hehehe)
I think this is a very strong post, not least because anything calling out David Sirota on his self-aggrandizing, mainstream-alienating crap, as well as the depressing resemblance of true believers on the left to true believers on the right, is aces by me.
That said, I can see how those further to the left of the spectrum might take issue with the "radical progressive" characterization. Perhaps the truly exceptional progressive leaders are radical in outlook but rational in operation--Gandhi and MLK come to mind. The world needs visionaries, dreamers and idealists, and "rational progressives" (a group in which I readily count myself) are kept honest and focused by their efforts.
But historical evidence suggests that a pluralistic representative democracy can't take too much radicalism--at either extreme. Our greatest presidents (Lincoln, FDR) have been rational progressives, susceptible to the sort of "sellout" charges that the likes of Sirota so cavalierly toss around, and indeed falling short at times of the ideals they might claim and that their supporters venerate. Still, compromised progress is progress nonetheless, and short of society-shaking traumas like the Civil War it's all that our system allows.
It's not hard to fit Obama into this scenario.
Some of the confusion here might be eliminated if people considered the personality typology of Hans Eysenck.
Eysenck proposed that there were two main dimensions to ideological beliefs: (1) left-vs-right, and (2) tough-minded vs.tender-minded. In place of the tough/tender-minded terminology, some might substitute the roughly equivalent idea of dogmatic vs. undogmatic.
These two dimensions are more or less perpendicular to one another. You can have dogmatic leftists and dogmatic rightists (as well as, for that matter, dogmatists all along the left-right spectrum),
I think some of what Nate is trying to capture with his "radical progressive" term is "dogmatic left." Following social psychologist Milton Rokeach's idea, dogmatists are inflexible, unable to see nuance, and tend to see things in either-or terms.
So basically we have these old stereotypes:
Everyone on the left of the center is either a Menshevik (rationalist) or a Bolshevik (radical).
Trotsky or Lenin, no other choices.
Count me out. This is too black and white for me, too much like Bush and his 'you are for us or you are against us" bit.
It's all too convienient to say "Oh, well, you,re a liberal." or "Oh well, you're a radical" and just dismiss their ideas like that.
And I'm shocked that we're all buying this crap.
@MiM:
"(It will be interesting to see how the 'radical progressives' defending Marx tear apart this discussion about him. hehehe)"
It may be even more interesting to you to learn that those 'radical progressives' won't tear apart your line of thought.
@Statler: You're overstating the case here. Very few people here are buying that or any other crap. We're all trying to figure out a reasonable typology, and a vocabulary to apply to contemporary political ideologies.
Barry Goldwater and Richard Nixon supported a 70% top income tax rate.
Did you guys know that? Apparently not.
The positions that define left and right, progressive and conservative have been shoved so far to the right by the GOP and the corporate media that the 39% top income tax rate of the Clinton White House was defined by the media this year as "socialism."
Younger people need a little historical perspective and need to remember there's a whole "rest of the world" other than the US that gets to participate in defining political terms such as these. The only actual "progressive" in the American political system right now is Bernie Sanders. There's not a single progressive Democrat elected to Federal office. The whole bunch is either centrists or center-right. The GOP is now so far to the right they are closer to the Falangists of Francisco Franco's Spain.
@Blazer: I was with you for a moment there in your comment that ideological terms (and locations on the spectrum) change over time and space. For example, in Europe the term "liberal" is generally interpreted as a "business" (center-right) position on the political spectrum.
But likening the far right in the U.S. to the Falangists misses a very critical difference. The ideology of the American right is very anti-statist in the sense of keeping the goverment out of the marketplace. (But it's pretty pro-statist in terms of putting the government into everyone's private communications!)
@Juris - the problem though is its not a "reasonable typology" to define radical as the antithesis of rational.
To call it "radical" to be process oriented verses outcome oriented is not really fair. There are many radical groups that don't care if they achieve social change through the courts or through other mechanisms, even if the judiciary isn't the most democratic means.
Similarly, there are groups who have the foresight to realize that achieving an end without regards to the process can be a pyrric victory, insofar as it sets the stage for future losses. You have to care how something gets done sometimes, as much as what is ultimately done.
It's nothing new in politics to declare your ideas rational, and those who stand in your way as being "irrational," but it's a little self-serving to have the power to define one as radical simply because you don't approve of the "mindset" or "goals" at issue.
I dunno, Juris.
Why would you need or even want a typology?
I mean, there are crackpots out there. The internet is full of conspiracy theorists and people who want to see things fall apart, particularly if they can emerge as the Robespierre during the ensuing chaos. But we don,t really need a label for those people, we can tell them their theory is crazy on an individual basis.
It's these labels that bother me here. They create division within the ranks on an undesirable scale.
There are times when urgency is called for, and times when deliberation is justified. If I scrape my knee, I can clean it off and slap a bandaid on it until later when I can have a good look at it. If I'm bleeding profusely or have severed a finger, it's time to go to the ER immediately.
Shouldn't we pick the strategy that befits the situation?
No, here we have these labels and we have to ask ourselves why we want them. Will they help us determine which situations require immediate action and which should be mulled over? No, they won't, because they have nothing to do with the situation itself. They're all about the people in our party, and within one faction of the party (being the liberals).
They only serve to give us a means to dismiss each other. "Oh, he's too radical. I'm rational."
It,s a loaded term too, because I Can't say, "Oh, he's too rational" and have it carry bthe same punch, can I?
It's liek saying, "There are smart people and there are idiots. If you agree with me, you're one of the Smart People. If you disagree with me, you are an Idiot"
Well, what the hell is that?
Statler N Waldorf posted:
"Everyone on the left of the center is either a Menshevik (rationalist) or a Bolshevik (radical).
Trotsky or Lenin, no other choices."
Statler, maybe I've missed an essential part of the conversation (I admit I haven't followed all of it) or am taking you too literally, but both Trotsky and Lenin were Bolsheviks. The Mensheviks were overthrown in the October Revolution. And they were _Democratic_ Socialists, as opposed to the Bolsheviks, who were in favor of dictatorship (Lenin) and totalitarianism (every subsequent Soviet leader until Gorbachev; I doubt Khrushchev's reforms make him an exception, but if they do, he still favored dictatorship).
"So basically we have these old stereotypes:
Everyone on the left of the center is either a Menshevik (rationalist) or a Bolshevik (radical).
Trotsky or Lenin, no other choices."
As funny as it is that you keep unintentionally proving his point (and Juris' point about only seeing things in either-or) I feel I should point out that no one that you are arguing against is suggesting that these are absolute and exclusive categories.
Perhaps that is because they are more rational?
NATE
sorry but this is your WORST BLOG EVER !!!
I was gonna pass on this thread as the column is poorly constructed [apparently written in an 'angry' mode ???] and full of haphazard illogical argumentative constructs... basically a 'meh'
BUT after reading too many comments who actually align themselves with you & pat themselves on their own backsides for their moral superiority is just too offensive to allow th pass...
nate, to disown/put down those you choose to arbitrarily label 'radical' while annointing yourself as 'rational' is neither 'logical' nor supportable imho
in fact, substitute the terminology for 'rational with 'stroking with your left hand'
that goes for many others here tonight who claim rational superiority - FAIL
I am in neither arbitrary camp - the subject matter or issue drives me into either column as the caee merits
progressive/liberal ? damm straight
radical ? when necessary
rational ? prefer moral & logical - but I am no appeaser/compromiser which is what the 'rational' camp would tend toward fwiw
WORST, clearly 'D' work - sorry nate we all know you can do better
did Sirota cut you off in traffic this weekend & this is road rage or what ???
WV - expag
Statler N Waldorf wrote:
"Shouldn't we pick the strategy that befits the situation?"
Yes. That really is the point. Do whatever is necessary and possible. Get whatever can be passed to be passed, but continue to advocate and work for things that can't be or haven't been accomplished yet.
I was in college in 1984. Right after Reagan's reelection, schoolmates of mine started organizing and conducting civil disobedience to agitate for divestment from South Africa. I told them I supported them but thought it wasn't the right time, because by reelecting Reagan by a landslide, the American people had showed they didn't give a damn about South Africa. My friends listened respectfully to me, but it didn't change their behavior: They continued their agitation. The result of the divestment movement was that the Congress overrided Reagan's veto to pass a divestment bill. That proves that a large, committed minority can accomplish new things that seem to be mistimed or totally in vain. Once again: "All progress is due to the unreasonable man."
I think this is very interesting. I have had this conversation with my friend many times. I dubbed Obama, and myself, "pragmatic liberals", while my friend tended to be more "radical". I think the distinction made here is a very good one. I feel the biggest difference between the two is reality. I feel that radical liberals hold views that many of us in theory would like to see implemented. In a perfect world they would be. Pragmatic progressives might have the same views but these are tempered by what is possible or plausible. The best example, I can think of is gay marriage. I fervently believe in it as does my "radical" friend. Yet, I also support Civil Unions as at least an intermediary step if they bestow the same rights are are more apt to actually getting instituted. My friend on the other hand is against them and believes that marriage is the only option. It's interesting to think about. I think Obama is very pragmatic but a lot of the fear seems to stem from the this concern (which I've never been able to understand) that he's not really all that liberal. I think Obama is definitely the most liberal President we've had in a while but he's also one of the pragmatic.
DCM - No need for you to try and claim your polarity. Like many of your peers, your massive overreaction paints its own picture.
But of course, self-awareness is not a listed characteristic of radicals.
I stand corrected on the definition of Menshevik. Sorry, Communism is not something I've spent alot of time exploring.
Anyway, listen, I'm glad you feel that your friends efforts to change American foreign policy vis-a-vis South Africa. It's nice to know that when your friends showed that they understood the great moral evil America was engaged in, you were right there to tell them they were wasting their time.
Really. Because we need someone to attack the idealists and the people who suggest that human rights mean something. You're a real hero for standing up for apathy. I salute you (middle finger raised)
MICHAEL
your post was RAD
come to think of it, Obama owes his primary victory over Clinton to hewing to the 'opposed the Iraq War' meme & his promise to end it when elected
that was clearly the 'rational' stance for him to take at the time
BUT how is that going right now ???
4 weeks as POTUS - what has been done to end the war & stem that financial hemorrhaging ???
we require RADICAL action to end the damm occupation NOW & not to bogged down further & deeper in Afghanistan too !!!
sorry, Obama's 'rational progressive' approach on Iraq & Afghanistan is nothing more than pandering & appeasement imho
Hey wait a second. I'm working for transformative stuff, and I'm optimistic. I'm conversational and action-oriented. etc.
Where does that leave me?
John,
Fuck off. DCM's right. Why are you so fast to put him in a little box and ismiss him like that?
Very nice post! This is really similar to my personal political beliefs!
Good analysis, Nate. And it explains the divide in the current blogosphere, and the Sirota Open Left, and Daily Kos attacks on Obama. Nothing so unifying as GWB. But now we see the progressive divide, and it's real.
JON
apparently that leaves you in some parallel universe or virtual reality....lol
that is the problem with categorical labeling - especially by employing terminology that can smack of derision
I Hate Your Blog
by
MC Frontalot
I hate your blog.
It’s incredibly
terrible and bad.
I hate your blog. You own a dog, and you feed it.
You post about it. I get to read it.
Plus: five paragraphs on the socks you bought
and your thoughts on whether Nicole Ritchie’s hot or not.
You got no reason to be typing, yet you persist.
Hit each key with your fist till you punch out your top ten list
of all the things that ever happened in your life.
Number one: met Michael Jackson’s second wife.
Number two: got Curly on the Which Stooge Are You
Poll, as the GIF proves. Click for the link-through!
Three: saw puppy pictures on a web page,
kittens in a nest egg. The idea gestated:
Why not open up your own?
So you bought the account and yet I hope you don’t
put the payments in on it every month like they want,
‘cause then you’ll disappear off the internet, haunt
just the Wayback Machine like a ghost.
And I won’t be like, “How come you don’t post??”
I promise I won’t.
I hate your blog. Your recipe for vegan eggnog is stupid.
I hissed and I booed it,
and then eschewed it, never made it once. Yes,
your blog roll is a confederacy of dunces.
It abuts less interesting links in your posts.
Hamsters that dance! I’m not engrossed.
I’m not opposed to your collection of All Your Base pics,
but they’re longer in the denture than a ninja flipping out doing face kicks.
I’ll phrase this nice:
if it’s hard to get to bed, your web site will suffice
to entice me to slumber. I mumble impoliticly,
“I tried not to click ‘read more’ but you tricked me!”
Want to stick the whole computer in the trash can
instead of reading about the constipation lately and your ass plans
that you seem to contemplate.
You thought I would rate your page ‘awesome’ and ‘great’?
[Whoremoans]
You’re just jealous. Yeah, that’s it — envious, even.
Turning green when my hit counter broke ten thousand this evening.
Mad you cant match my keypad content
or petitions for legalizing of micropayment thieving.
X-rays of teething eight-month heathens and pictures of kittens heaving,
the calories in everything I’m eating,
yaoi art my girl drew of Goku making out with Joss Whedon,
my 300-pound friend’s exposure (that’s indecent).
But that’s only negatives.
I’ve got discussions on the homeliest alien relative.
The final battle, Sam Cassell versus Carnage
and a triple-threat match: Charles v. Marilyn v. Shirley Manson from Garbage.
I pay homage to great Americans like Bill O’Reilly and Ann Coulter;
Westwood Radio for help when insulting countercultures.
My blog stands above all others by head and shoulders.
I hate your blog. You ain’t logged in in a month and a half,
and I, for one, am aghast.
I mean I’m fast on the way to removing it from bookmarks.
If I took part in vanity I might be trying to look smart
by not checking eight times a day.
Your blog is so despair-inducing I can’t bear to look away.
Oh, well! Got to do what your muse compels.
Guess I’ll try to go despise a blog by someone else.
Another important distinction might be that "rational progressives" aren't immune to self-doubt and are willing to consider the remote possibility that they might be wrong on a certain question, whether at the philosophical or operational level. They adjust their views to fit the facts, whereas, unfortunately, radicals and ideologues can always find a hedge or rationalization to explain why the world didn't align with their infallible view.
While you don't want so much self-doubt to render paralysis, a bit of it isn't the worst thing when operating in a system that forces you to regard "the other side" as at least human.
SnW
thanks mate. I was gonna avoid his attempt to troll me into ad hominem attacks...
but really - I must correct you.
I am in a BIG box... no one can put me in a little one ;-)
SNW
great time to post that MC Frontalot prose
pretty much sums this thread up...
kudos
have a cup o' franzia on me
@Steve: If I were doing the typology, I'd pick up some of the distinction that I referred to later in this thread. I'd basically lay out a left-right dimension, and a dogmatic-flexible/pragmatic dimension. I wouldn't use a single dimension, or Nate's precise grouping.
I'd classify Communist/Bolshevik-types as extremely left and extremely dogmatic.
I'd classiry the fascist-types at the extreme right and extremely dogmatic/inflexible.
I think Nate is using the term "rational" in a different sense than most people are interpreting it here. I think he means something more akin to pragmatic and fact-driven (based on ratiocination, thinking reflectively and pragmatically) as opposed to being dogmatic and strictly ideologically driven.
The folks who took us to Iraq were conservative idealists who ignored the facts on the ground. They thought they could make a new reality by force of will. Their dogmatically driven goal to unseat Sadam Hussein meant ignoring much of the context and possible negative consequences if their assumptions were wrong (e.g., overlooking the potential for an insurency, overlooking how empowering of Iran this entire enterprise has been). It wasn't so much that these people were conservative neocons that led them astray; it's that they were dogmatists.
DCM, I guess I'm kinda in some weird inter-boxial space. Not 'rational' enough to like endless group therapy sessions masquerading as a committee meeting during a crisis. Not 'radical' enough to believe anyone has all the answers.
This has really got to be the worst idea Nate ever came up with. I mean, slam the damn book if you want, but this kinda shit is uncalled for.
I think the difference between the two progressives is indeed more about tactics and personality than ideology, with the exception of what Nate mentioned, Marxism. While unrestricted capitalism is without question vile, the fact remains that some form of free market is needed for a country and its people to prosper. I wish Marxism actually did work, but it has been tried numerous times and has always failed. I see a free market system like ours, with the rich paying a larger share of taxes to be redistributed to the poor, as pretty much the best system we can hope for.
Even most of the European countries use some form of free market ideas in their universal healthcare systems. And no, I’m not at all endorsing the fiscal policies of the Republiclowns, I’m just saying we need to be realistic about what works.
One thing of interest I might point out is there does seem to be a larger amount of paranoia on the radical progressive side. While in truth corporations get away with A LOT behind closed doors, it’s always interesting how many radical progressives, who are seemingly intelligent people, will believe the most elaborate and implausible conspiracy theories about them. (IE thousands of individuals involved in a 9/11 coverup, all working together, all keeping things quiet)
The tactics of the radical progressives seem to be more emotion-based than anything. Example, the morons who show up at IMF meetings and just start breaking sh*t, not realizing that they’re doing much more harm to their cause than good. (and no, I‘m not saying they represent radical progressives)
In truth, I think the best strategy is to take the ideas, tactics and rational actions of the rational progressives, but still try to infuse some of the passion of the radical progressives, to help fuel reform.
Also, I agree with another person who suggested Nate do a similar comparison of the different Republican groups.
"Fuck off. DCM's right. Why are you so fast to put him in a little box and ismiss him like that?"
First off, nice language. Very reactionary of you.
Second, I didn't dismiss him at all. I am just pointing out that so far, almost without exception, everyone who disagrees with Nate's point is overreacting, ranting, making weird basic logic errors, creating strawmen and basically being EXACTLY what you expect from a radical.
His (and your) posts read shockingly similar to the type of posts you would see from those you so vehemently oppose.
Calm down, take a breath, think it through and add to the discussion.
OR... you could TALK IN CAPS, and give Nate a FAIL, maybe even threaten to go away if you are not given validation from Nate himself (really, dude?) and generally be loud and irrational.
Why does everyone think progressive is a party?
the Democrats have several factions... Blue Dogs,... liberals...centrists......
We libs are the largest faction at the moment. But that can change once we fall in on each other with bickering an infighting.
So cut the bullshit about rational vs radical. In an emergency, there's nothing more rational than radicalism. In a time of peace, nothing is more radical than rationalism.
Let the cure fit the disease.
SnW
I agree, and exactly what set Nate off on his flaming of Sirota ???
sumthin got his danger up - and Nate posted this weak argument that is only self-serving & logically counter-productive
WV - sling !!! really - SLING !!! hehehe
lets go sling some more rotten eggs @ Sirota & those commie radicals...
John,
Fuck shit bollocks, ass, cunt, whore, asshole, bastard, fuckwit, motherfucker, cock, frick, frack, and tits. Also, ass
They're just words. Words are only dirty when they are used to sow hate and division.
Like the way you use the word radical to describe me.
Of course, Nate said it first, and since this si his blog, he is kinda liek the God of the blog. And since God never says anything that is untrue, Nate must be correct.
Let the3 witchunt begin.. is anyone in the comment section too radical to be here? should we attack him? Drive him off the board?
Well, fuck all y'all.
Oh, and Nate? Fuck you too for starting this shit.
SnW
are you channeling our dearly departed George Carlin now ???
but your 'god' argument smacks of similar flawed 'rational' thought as Nate used in flaming Sirota et al
a well done satire !
You're an economist...by definition, you don't have to tell us that you support the rational worldview. :)
The problem with Marx is that he was dead right about the problem, but dead wrong about the solution. Rational progressives would rather solve problems piece-meal, eventually coming to the best outcome. Radicals (like Marx) would rather solve problems wholesale, advocating a solution and hoping it is the right one.
Nate could slightly salvage his weak argument by saving this blog was meant to be a 'draft' or 'talk amongst yourselves' to provoke conversation
but he backed himself into a corner by labeling himself as a 'ration prog' with a tendency to be an 'incrementalist'
vs 'reactionary'
sorry, that is a false choice
ANY change is actually reactionary, no ?
but CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN is what ??? incremental ???
a bill of goods...
instead of RATIONAL - a better term would be REALISTIC or COMPROMISING [I say appeaser...]
and rather then RADICAL, the better label would be MORALISTIC
because IF one insists upon real change for deeply felt reasons, there must be more to it than simplistic ideology - otherwise he should just call it ANARCHIST
Statler - Wow. I was wrong. You are so rational and calm. You don't overreact at all.
Good God, man. Pull it together.
DCM - A peek inside DCM's thought process...
"Uh-oh. Statler's gone off the deep end. But I am his ally of sorts... how do I respond to his ranting? I know! I will try to throw him a rope by pretending that he is being satirical (and not unintentionally proving Nate's point with every word.) - "Ha-ha there, Statler! Well done! That IS exactly how an irrational person would sound! Good job!"
in other words, there is clearly a continuum along the liberal/progressive branch from 'opportunist' through 'anarchist'
and as with sexuality & many other mores, most people are somewhere along a sliding scale that is seldom static or fixed, but instead is dependent upon circumstances & opportunity or lack thereof...
Lincoln certainly comes to mind... in honor ot the dead prez holidaze
JOHN
your attempt to show how smart you are merely proves you are the class dunce
what a troll
give it up clown
Thank you so much for this post Nate.
I have always been somebody who has largely identified with the more so-called radical minds of the political spectrum (I supported Kucinich back in '07), despite already more rational orientations than some (supporting Kerry over Nader in '04 for example). But as the 2008 election season wore on I found myself separating more and more from the more radical, liberal base that I have always married to. I think that this really started to come to head with the Bailout in September in which most of the more progressive members voted against it not due to very valid reasoning like the incompetency of George W. Bush and Secretary Paulson, but because of their own "moralistic" stances against big banks and businesses. And I have since began losing a lot of my once-genuine affection towards them because of things like DailyKos (which I follow through Twitter simply because nobody else will report on other low-profile congressional and primary races), the constant calls for war crime trials against top Bush officials, the criticisms of the current Administration's "caving" on issues like Gitmo and the stimulus, as well as groups like PETA and extreme environmentalists are that aren't just radical, but really dangerously unstable at times.
So as a fellow rational progressive, thank you Nate for giving a voice to the internet's largely forgotten Left.
SnW
Myxymatosis? Tuesday? You studying veterinary medicine?
"in other words, there is clearly a continuum along the liberal/progressive branch from 'opportunist' through 'anarchist'"
Of COURSE there is (though not always linear). What do you think that dividing people into categories does? It details the continuum!
The more points you define on it, the more clear a line becomes. Subdividing progressives, itself a subdivision of liberal, in turn a subdivision of political ideology, ENHANCES the concept of the continuum.
Of course there is crossover and there are outliers. Duh.
But you are missing the core concept here and you are missing it by a mile.
DCM - And you know full well that I was right about Statler. Your refusal to acknowledge it further defines you.
Writing me off as a troll when I point out how irrational you are being is pretty weak stuff.
Best way for you to regain ground? Start being rational in this discussion. Ironic, but true.
I don't consider the spectrum of progressive thought as a dichotomy. There are issues that I am very far to the left, issues where I'm pretty centered, and even issues that I am mildly conservative (though those are rare). For actionable progress, sometimes compromise is necessary and sometimes revolutionary change is necessary, depending on the issue.
Also, the terms "rational" and "radical" do not accurately reflect the ends of the progressive spectrum. It is possible for a radical to be completely rational. And as Nate proves, it is possible for a "rational" to be radical, as he is in this post.
I would also like to say that so much of the comments on this post are inadvertently proving the theories of the post they are trying to refute. The most belligerent (notice I did not say "only") people I've seen in my reading have been the people who seem to be more inclined towards the radical as defined here, and their arguments against the label further pigeonhole them into said label. I find it very interesting.
"Also, the terms "rational" and "radical" do not accurately reflect the ends of the progressive spectrum. It is possible for a radical to be completely rational..."
Obviously. And it's possible for a liberal to be conservative! And a conservative to be liberal! That does not mean that the categories do not have any usefulness.
The label is not the definition and absolutely no one is saying that the categories are absolute and exclusive.
It's like dividing movies into genres... OF COURSE there is crossover and outliers, the categories are a place to start.
For a long time, plays were either comedies or dramas. Then people broke it down further. And further. And further. And that's ok. It's analysis.
The overreaction to this is pretty funny.
Ben
Yes. But the same person can be on different sides of the fence at different times. I guess the trick is to maintain some semblance of rationality while pursuing a goal that others might regard as radical.
To paraphrase something my old Aikido teacher once said: "I can do anything a fanatic can do, but the difference is I'm not a fanatic."
I make no such claim, but it's a goal.
Excellent post, Nate. I definitely come down on the rational progressive side, as does, thankfully, our president. I do think that the radical progressives play an important role, sometimes as a voice moving the overall debate to the left, sometimes as a foil making the rational progressives' positions look more moderate by comparison, and sometimes as a conscience reminding us that some issues are non-negotiable, and worth fighting for.
That said, I agree with many here that Sirota can be a disingenuous, self-righteous prick. (Glenn Greenwald, too.)
Incidentally Sirota has responded to this in a post at http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=11639. It doesn't do much to advance the conversation in a constructive direction (the Top Gun reference is hardly helpful), but he is right to point out that Nate's use of the word "dangerous" was rather infelicitous to say the least.
These are important issues here, worthy of discussion, but neither Nate nor David seem to be articulating their views all that well. Leave it to bloggers!
John,
I agree that the ends of the spectrum exist, as you argue. My argument is that the term "rational" is inaccurate and misleading. It implies that radicals are categorically irrational, which is a falsehood. He is mislabeling his own end of the spectrum. Had he used a different term, "moderate" for example, it would be more accurate.
Also, plays were comedies and tragedies, not dramas.
If correcting falsehood is overreacting then you are right, I did overreact...
a self-labled 'Rational Progressive' makes about as much logical sense as an avowed 'Compassionate Conservative'...
now, other people might choose to hang a label on certain folks based on a few percieved arbitrary atributes
but this blog makes about the same amount of rational sense as L Ron Hubbard/Scientology as religion
where is the logical validity ???
WV - buylagni [sounds & smells like baloney]
HARDHEADED
my hat is off to you for a most excellent post - especially for a very late night riposte !
you set your arguments up & support them to a logical conclusion. it was my pleasure to read it.
best in show on this thread !
please post more often
Nate's analysis here reminds me of the Sensible Party vs. the Silly Party in Monty Python's Election Night Special skit.
I think any kind of poitical labelling is difficult, and any attempt to put it into a historical context is futile. I think trying to draw lines across the 'progressive' label has little value. Does a moderate Democrat, like Evan Bayh say, have a different approach to policy than say a more left leaning Democrat, like Denis Kucinich? Absolutely, is it going to draw them into conflict? Absolutely. IS there any value in scratching at that conflict at a time when the opposition (isn't it good to refer to the GOP as 'the opposition' in all senses, as often as possible?) is united only in its opposition to the Democratic Party? I am not sure personally.
Lets allow ourselves to disagree, respectfully, and show the value of debate. Lets not close ourselves off behind doors and labels that have little real political value. Debate, not agreement, is how political progress is made. To me bi-partisanship is not about everyone being chummy and agreeing with thingsd they don't believe, its about allowing debate to happen in a respectful and reasonable environment, and playing the ball not the man. Don't like the bailout? Fine, but don't make it about the fact that Democrats are silly and irresonsible, point out the faults, as you see them and maybe suggest alternatives. Thats true bi-partisanship.
(sorry for wandering off the point there!)
Statler N Waldorf posted the following idiocy:
"Anyway, listen, I'm glad you feel that your friends efforts to change American foreign policy vis-a-vis South Africa. It's nice to know that when your friends showed that they understood the great moral evil America was engaged in, you were right there to tell them they were wasting their time.
Really. Because we need someone to attack the idealists and the people who suggest that human rights mean something. You're a real hero for standing up for apathy. I salute you (middle finger raised)"
You're being an asshole and also showing you didn't pay enough attention to my post to understand it. My point - which seemed obvious enough to me - is that I learned a valuable lesson from observing the success of the divestment movement:
"That proves that a large, committed minority can accomplish new things that seem to be mistimed or totally in vain."
And by the way, while I didn't take part in any civil disobedience and thought that, unfortunately, their efforts wouldn't bear fruit at that time, I was always there to sign petitions and write letters. I even wrote a letter in response to an anti-ANC Op-Ed by William Safire that was published in the New York Times in 1985 or so. It completely took apart his morally and logically bankrupt arguments against democracy in South Africa at that time. So therefore, I was part of the divestment movement and in a small way, contributed to its success. Take your misdirected righteous anger and shove it.
John posted as follows:
"I am just pointing out that so far, almost without exception, everyone who disagrees with Nate's point is overreacting, ranting, making weird basic logic errors, creating strawmen and basically being EXACTLY what you expect from a radical."
Then I suppose you'll want to address my argument above in that case, which is basically that:
(1) As George Bernard Shaw said:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
(2) The mainstreamers who compromise because politics is "the art of the possible" NEED the "unreasonable" radicals to continue pushing forward the agenda and agitating for radical change. (And I gave the example of FDR coopting all the main planks of the Socialist Party - USA.)
Maybe you'd also like to address my observation about the divestment in South Africa movement, that was able to capture a large minority of the country during the Reagan Administration and get a bunch of _Republican_ senators to override his veto. (I remember, in particular, Senator Danforth from Missouri, a very conservative senator, but one who always had a moral conscience.) The folks who did sit-ins and other acts of civil disobedience really helped drive what became a much bigger movement, based not on compromise but morality.
I think my biggest criticism of Nate's post is that it relies mainly on a scientific, proof based vision of politics, and politics is much more emotional and cultural than that. People don't think too much about there political labelling it is done emotionally, (I don't have them to hand, but studies have been done on this). Politically labelling, almost by definition is irrational.
DCM in FL posted:
MICHAEL
your post was RAD
come to think of it, Obama owes his primary victory over Clinton to hewing to the 'opposed the Iraq War' meme & his promise to end it when elected
that was clearly the 'rational' stance for him to take at the time
BUT how is that going right now ???
4 weeks as POTUS - what has been done to end the war & stem that financial hemorrhaging ???
we require RADICAL action to end the damm occupation NOW & not to bogged down further & deeper in Afghanistan too !!!
sorry, Obama's 'rational progressive' approach on Iraq & Afghanistan is nothing more than pandering & appeasement imho
Thanks for the compliment on my post, and you make a terrific point in this one. Clinton's vote on Iraq is the main thing that made the difference between her and Obama winning the Democratic presidential nomination. Sure, Sean could point out the difference in organization and enthusiasm, but underlying those things were issues, with Iraq the most important.
But you need to have some patience or at least acceptance of what can reasonably be expected from President Obama, even as you should continue to agitate for the things you believe in and consider a moral imperative. In short, I consider it important for radicals to understand things as they are, while not letting those things paralyze them. That's the meta level. Now the more prosaic level.
As a candidate, Senator Obama never promised a withdrawal from Iraq in 4 weeks. Instead, he proposed to have all _combat troops_ withdrawn in 16 months, subject to some possible tweaking, if necessary. So anyone who actually expected a precipitous withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Iraq wasn't paying attention.
As for financial hemorrhaging, well, like it or not, Tarp II was passed, and the Recovery Act was also passed. Salaries for executives of banks subjected to government rescue are being limited. Unfortunately, the economy is likely to be bad for some time, so Obama may have plenty of time (within reason) to try to figure out what else to do to steer it away from the precipice. I hated the nomination and confirmation of Geithner, but I won't prejudge the eventual economic policies of the Obama Administration, which are still unfolding.
We are in total agreement about Afghanistan. The current U.S. policies are totally untenable, and I can't see any other outcome than withdrawal, relatively soon (2 years?).
So again, keep agitating, and know that you have my support. But recognize, too, that there is no-one liberal and anti-imperialist enough for you or me who could win the presidency of the U.S. at this time in our history. And no matter how much he falls short of our ideals or messes up strategically, President Obama has already been a damn sight better than GW. We need to remember that, while we continue to push him from the left.
everyone's a critic...
Excellent thoughts, Nate, and would suggest that your list of traits differentiating 'rational progressives' from 'radical progressives' has an even more pragmatic use: Conservatives have used the broad brush stroke of what you've defined as 'radical progressive' to define ALL liberals and ALL progressives, as well as pretty much EVERYONE who is not them! And they've done so very effectively...until recently when their own self-serving and divisive hate-mongering exposed them for what they really are turned the focus upon their own foibles.
While I, and probably most reasonable people on both sides of the aisle, don't like the use of 'labels', it seems obvious to me that the results of this past election have given us the opportunity to redefine the labels 'liberal' and 'progressive' in a more mainstream, positive way, i.e. to 'brand ourselves' as the true mainstream political, economic and social group in America once again.
And we're right here with you working on exactly that! Thanks!
The labels of these two categories are so self-serving! Much like the so-called, self-designated "realists" of political science referring to the other side as "idealists".
There is no opposition between "rational" and "radical"; one can certainly be both at the same time.
Conversely, one can be "irrational" and "moderate", for example when uncritically accepting the conventional wisdom du jour as served by the presidential savior.
Rational wins hands down on that chart.
Yes, it does, becuase Nate identifies himself as a "rational" progressive and not-so-subtly slants the descriptions to make that seem the more appealing choice.
I do agree with the description of the dichotomy, and I'd identify myself as an aspiring rational progressive whose frustrations sometimes push him towards the radical side. But I'd like to see either a more balanced description OR, failing that, the same chart made by a self-identified "radical".
Who would want to be irrational? Me for one. Back in the 1960s I didn't shout "We want freedom in a few hundred years if it's not too much trouble, please!"
Opposition without pressure is acquiescence. Pressure from the left is imho a profoundly good thing. It keeps us moving.
A proudly irrational progressive.
Besides, it's way more fun.
I too look at the two lists and say hmmm. I look at society and say capitalism has failed - it has had a long time to be transformed and each transformation has failed - look at Western Europe and the USA both Capitalistic in different ways - but none solve the problems.
But being progressive as Americans use the word I am proud to embrace change and don't see my ideology as rigid - I want to see an end to capitalism which you may see as intrinsic in ideology - but my ideology is malleable as I find the way to achieve that has changed with time and the society we replace it with as also changed over time.
It is so simple to write up two lists but as above we all can take from both lists and calling myself a radical or rationalist just does not cut the cake for me.
I have used many labels for my politics during my lifetime - from communist, socialist, leftist, progressive, green, liberal - and none of them really encompass my whole.
Both Conservative and Social Democracy have failed this world so has Statism which you may call Communism. In no way has any society even tried to implement Communism - and that is one reason when the right use that term it makes me laugh - they can't see that Capitalism has failed.
I'm unsure where I fit in this scale, I don't believe in the absolute failure of capitalism, because markets are good at allocating resources on a small scale and on a larger scale if you correctly understand what assumptions you are making about the market, I believe there can be a technocratic fix to income inequality, since I believe wealth inequality is unavoidable in any economic system (even one without money). I'd consider myself a cynic though and feel that messaging is vital, and rhetoric has power, it's magic/NLP and it WORKS, so Ideological battles need to be fought on ideology, and those battles will always happen because 20% of the population will be born authoritarians/sociopaths, and they will need to be managed otherwise their idiotic fantasies will once again be weaved into policy. I'm certainly drawn to radical ideas but Highly suspicious of radicals. what do I believe in? I believe in Aikido
david sirota's kinda hot though right?
Nate, Thanks so much for putting to words what I have been lamenting about. While we on the left, and yes I am a progressive, should be excited about the change that Obama and the new congress will bring, some especially the Open Left main diarists have been critical of Obama from day one. They will never really give Obama a real chance. You were too kind to call them progressives.. they really are being regressive in their ardent opposition to working together. It's all their way or the highway, which is fine for a think tank, but not for social advancement or producing in a legistlative environment.
this whole entry is problematic.
First, employing binary language to discuss differences within Progressivism is simplistic and (perhaps unintentionally) dishonest. You can't reduce progressives to two camps of any kind, especially two named optimistic and pessimistic. It is polarizing language, from someone who calls himself a rational incrementalist!
Second, your approach overlooks huge segments of history, and seems more of a stereotype than a study.
Third, you clearly do not understand, and therefore dismiss, any marxist critique as irrelevant. please distinguish between marxist ideas and historic marxist practice.
Nate, I wouldn't call you a rational progressive. I would call you an Cultist for Obama.
I voted for Obama in 2008 but was not enthusiastic about him because of his right wing tendencies. Obama supported the Peru Free Trade Act even though the AFL-CIO opposed it. Obama supported granting telecom immunity with the last FISA bill even though what they did was against the Constitution and a threat to our rights of privacy. When I point these out to Obama fanatics, they viciously pounce upon me, like you are doing to David Sirota.
Obama cultists act like bullies when the truth about Obama is exposed. Progressives on the other hand, can disagree with Obama, vote him into office, and work to pressure him to follow the Oath of Office he took on Jan. 20, 2009. Progressives don't worship idols, like political figures. Progressives understand that even those they support are human and capable of committing errors. Progressives can forgive and move on; cultists can never forgive and overreact to legitimate criticisms of their idol.
Cultists for Obama hate those who criticize their idol and that is why they viciously and irrationally attack, like you did, honest critics of Obama and Democrats, like David Sirota and Paul Krugman. You may call yourself rational, but your reasons for your blind support of Obama are irrational. If you disagree with what David Sirota, Paul Krugman and other critics of Obama have to say, then please offer us your honest and rational counter argument, but spare us your dishonest and inane attempts at smearing Obama's critics.
David Sirota's book "The Uprising" was not about Sirota leading an army of progressives but about Sirota's observations that a populist revolt was rising up among the population even though the Washington Beltway Establishment chooses to ignore it. This revolt was not limited to progressives or the political left wing. The Right Wing was also undergoing it too. The rise of Ron Paul is a symptom of that right wing populist revolt. The "Uprising" points out that an anti-Establishment revolution is ongoing from both the Left and Right.
James Madison advised us to not trust anyone with power and our Founding Fathers knew that absolute power corrupts absolutely. Obama and the Democrats have the power now and the best way to keep them from becoming corrupted or becoming more corrupted is to honestly criticize them, so I welcome the criticisms of David Sirota, Paul Krugman and others like them. Dissent is patriotic even when that dissent comes among the Democrats and progressives.
Not a fan of this here, Silver. As a pollster, you're unparallelled. As a political analyst, not so much.
Whatever one thinks of Sirota, and he is problematic at times, drags himself to the center of things more than is my taste, the man has a political point of view, a set of principles that he wants politicians to measure up to. If it seems to you that he's ALWAYS ragging on Obama, I don't think you're reading him carefully enough. He dishes out praise and criticism according to his principles which you are free to agree or disagree with.
I'd like to ask Silver and his fans here what their bottom line is? What action that Obama might possibly take would be sufficiently bad that you would deem criticism of it appropriate?
For example, Obama's continued talk about "entitlements" has many of us uneasy. At worst, we are not completely certain he won't come out in favor of some sort of scheme to privatize Social Security. In spite of the thumping this idea took in 2005 when a Republican President pushed it, the Establishment types have never given up on it, and Obama has not told them to shove it. Bush I couldn't get NAFTA through. That took Bill Clinton.
I admit I don't know what Obama is going to propose in this area, and there are many possible outcomes that would be far better than this worst-case scenario I'm painting, but I have the sneaking suspicion that the "no criticism of Barack" crowd will follow him right along no matter what he proposes on this or many other issues.
Can you guys even admit that there is a bottom line below which your support for Obama would start to decrease? I think your unwillingness to consider this question is based on your inability to imagine having to oppose him. You want to be on his side unconditionally. Others aren't willing to do that.
I haven't made up my mind on Obama yet. I think that's the Rational thing to do. I hope to be able to continue supporting him, and I readily admit that I've been wrong about him before, that I've underestimated him many times, in fact. But he isn't God, and the rubber is starting to meet the road now. We are rapidly reaching the point where "wait and see" must give way to "evaluate what has happened."
The issue is NOT what we think of Obama. The issue is what kinds of actions his government is going to take. I think it is important never to lose sight of that.
Rational progressive is pretty much the worst label a so called rational would want to give her group. It implies that some progressives are not rational. It ties you to something bad. It's poor framing.
I would have thought a rational progressive would have though of this before--especially since you're so outcome oriented. You're not going to get anything done when you give your opposition such an easy way to tear you down.
This is just one of the many shortcomings in this post.
I would call you an Cultist for Obama.
The more of this language I see, the more I think Silver may actually have something.
While there is a split resembling what you're describing, Nate, I think you're doing everyone a disservice with the slant of the definitions. (And I generally come out on your side in this).
In particular, terms like "radical" and "rational" are quite loaded - something like Empirical and Normative might reduce the baggage being brought along (and if you're not flying Southwest, extra baggage is expensive).
Similarly, if you're going to throw Marxist influence out there, you should explain it more fully. Not to say it doesn't exist, but that kind of mud slinging deserves more backing.
WV: Reffsak - when a linebacker mistakes the line judge for the quarterback.
Nate,
You are a brilliant political campaign analyst and I check your website at least twice a day.
This time, I think you got it slightly wrong - though your breakdown of the two types of "progressivism" is extremely accurate and useful. I believe what you have described are two sides of a coin that are both essential for progressive change to take place. Sometimes the hammer is the best tool in the box - when you need to break something that is no longer working or in the way, or when you want to nail something solidly into place. Sometimes sanders and putty knives are the best tools - when you want to smooth down a surface and prepare it for the finishing touches.
Clearly, your sympathies lie with what you call rational progressives and you have contempt for those who favor trade protectionism. That is your opinion and you, no doubt, have your legitimate arguments supporting it. Nevertheless, I don't understand how you can say that it is misleading to say Obama promised to roll back Clinton and W era free trade agreements and is now edging away from such promises. Of course, many of us didn't think he was serious when he made those promises - that they were pure politics - but that doesn't mean he didn't make them and can, legitimately, be held to them.
Your critique is of a piece with many throughout the web of the proper approach "progressives" of all stripes should take toward the new Obama administration. Many feel that we should not criticize the President so quickly. Give him time to reveal his brilliant strategy before we start casting stones, they say.
I disagree. Without the tension from the left, Obama will continue to list to the right, as all left politicians naturally do to attempt to further consolidate their popularity. It is all part of the political process and when the left opts out, they lose ground. If you want to understand why the Clinton administration accomplished so little during its eight years, blame the kid glove treatment he received from the establishment left groups in Washington that never held him accountable when he let the nation down. The frustration from those eight years led to the 2000 Nader campaign, which all rational (and most radical, I hope) progressives can agree was a total disaster.
In sum, it is practical, patriotic, and NECESSARY for progressives to hold Obama accountable for sticking to principles and policies we believe are required for true change we can believe in.
@sTiVo:
Can you guys even admit that there is a bottom line below which your support for Obama would start to decrease? I think your unwillingness to consider this question is based on your inability to imagine having to oppose him. You want to be on his side unconditionally. Others aren't willing to do that.
So the underlying assumption here is that we are all "Obamabots", or whatever term Free Republic is using these days to describe unconditional support for Dear Leader. Do you realize how insulting that is? Do you understand the difference between being pragmatic and being mindless?
Speaking for myself, yes, of course there is a "bottom line". If Obama drowned a baby kitten, he wouldn't have my support. If he occupied a Middle East country on fabricated evidence, he wouldn't have my support. If he tries to push privatization of Social Security, he wouldn't have my support. When he came out against FISA during the campaign, he didn't have my support.
However, I still "haven't made up my mind on him yet", like you. While I'm not willing to be uncritical of Obama no matter what he does, I'm also not willing to declare the sky is falling if he says not-so-mean things about entitlement reform. By all means, take action if these things worry you and you can't just sit back and let the man shine. But spare us the generalizations and the demagoguery.
One more good thing about being an irrational progressive and keeping the pressure on: it trusts the process of Hegelian synthesis to keep working like it has since the days of the prehominids.
And one more: the process is a living thing and may have spinoff consequences of its own. For example, those of us who are willing to be a little irrational and partisan may find unexpected allies, intersectionalities, and friends.
Let it flow. Trust the force, Nate.
Nate.. Please keep on keeping on.. Obviously some bloggers feel threatened by your thoughtful observation.. so they have come on here to label you an Obama apologist. I appreciate your courage in pointing out how the extreme, as much on the left as the right, are radicals..
..and comments "Without the tension from the left, Obama will continue to list to the right" show that not only are they radicals but they are righteous fools.. Because any accomodation, or bipartisanship by Obama will be labeled by these extremests as hurtful to the cause.
Please continue to use your platform, intelligence, and insight to showcase the extremes, on both sides, for what they are, obstructionists to thr progression of all aspects of this great country, economic, social, environmental, and political..
You do realize you have handed a rather powerful cudgel to the Right to bludgeon us with, as well as having sown dissent amongst the ranks? Whereas before the contentiousness was more personal, with fewer victims and carried no official seal of approval, you have managed to class an entire group of fellow liberals as an abomination, to alienate them abuse them with official sanction.
The Right used uto use the term liberal as an insult. We reclaimed that, aside from a few cowards such ss yourself that continue to use the word progressive. And now they cabn bludgeon us with the term radical.
Congratulations Nate, on sghredding your own party. Huntsman now does stand a rather god chance of success in 2012
Congratulations Nate, on shredding your own party. Huntsman now does stand a rather god chance of success in 2012
Wow. Who knew Nate had so much power, that one post at his blog can "shred" an entire party and determine the outcome of elections three years in the future?
I'd suggest that there may be a third category: hysterical and hyperbolic progressives.
While some folks have taken legitimate issue with some of Nate's language, this kind of post smacks of the familiar right wing tactic of suppressing debate by declaring certain subjects traitorous to even discuss.
One more good thing about being an irrational progressive and keeping the pressure on: it trusts the process of Hegelian synthesis to keep working like it has since the days of the prehominids.
This is an excellent point, but it only works IF we can keep the dialectic free of hysteria and paranoid accusations of betrayal.
Okay, this is the third recent post where you've dropped a pile of insults on people for distrusting the institutions that have got us where we are now. I'm tired of it, and I think I'll stop reading your blog now.
Michael (mbw) said...
Pretty amazing AM hours on some of those comments.
Anyway, to try to pin down more clearly what seems wrong with Nate's post, it's a sort of pop psychology. The dichotomization can easily be fixed by allowing a continuum. The conflation of several different personality variables which are either uncorrelated or have some very transient correlation onto a single axis is a more fundamental flaw. The utter absence of any reference to any of the many empirical studies on political attitudes, character development, etc. in a nominally pro-empiricist post is weird.
Although I'm almost completely in practice and by instinct in what Nate would call the 'rational' camp, and have taken some lumps for it, Nate's defense verges on the embarrassing. It has served as a kind of sting. On the one hand, it has brought out people who think we all need more Hegel in our diet. On the other hand, it's brought out a wave of self-righteous smugness among many of my fellow incrementalists.
At the practical level, it's not clear that the sort of aneurism that has afflicted income distribution for the last 30 years is well-suited to our incrementalist approaches.
The sentiment expressed by both incrementalists and radicals here that some abstract Progress, whether driven by Hegelian Zeitgeist or Invisible Hand, will carry us forward is not supported by any long-term evidence. Most species are extinct.
On Obama- I have no idea how well he will handle the enormous problems. It's a relief, however, to have a President who actually would understand exactly what this comment is about.
This post so lazily reminds me of the fetishistic worship of stability and political centrism found in political science and international relations that I just can't waste the time or energy taking it on.
I think Nate should return to more empirically-based categorizations of ideologies among American political blocs, rather than this self-serving crap.
y'all. this is crazy. some of you guys are in a straight tizzy. Huntsman 2012?? Come on dude. You think Nate Silver is what's going to bring down this venerable old left-wing alliance?
Perhaps Nate, you ought to clarify some of these terms you're using. I mean, as far as I can tell, these are pretty text-book descriptors of what i would consider to be radical organizations, etc... but I think some people are hung up on the wording because it's not exactly clear what you mean.
Ex) a cynical political outlook doesn't neccessarily mean you are a cynical person in life. It just means you are skeptical of the government, right? is this not a true thing about radicals??
Ex) 'process-oriented' means that radical groups tend to care more about HOW decisions are made (non-hierarchically, with consesus), where as 'outcome oriented' pragmatists don't really care how decisions are made, they just want the "RIGHT" decisions to be made. I mean, am I wrong about this??
And also, these terms are meant as a kind of intellectual exercise no? Any given person could be anywhere along the spectrum of radical to rational. And that spectrum doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not you support/do not support Obama.
And wait a minute, all the radicals I know, are SELF-IDENTIFIED radicals. They call themselves that. Maybe if you are offended at the idea of being a radical, then you're not a radical! Maybe your a "rational progressive" that disagrees with Obama some of the time. Surely thats allowed to happen.
Am i alone in feeling like these words are just NOT that controversial??
dwbh:
Can I take your remark as a plea to tone down the rhetoric? Then we might not be as far apart as we think.
You say you don't like "generalizations and demagoguery". I don't like Nate Silver calling me "dangerous". Brandishing the "Marxist" sword at this point is all too reminiscent of past times when the "centrists" let themselves be sicced on the left. How did that work out?
There are legitimate political differences. Why is it so important at this point in time not to let it go at that? Nate Silver has done his part to ratchet up the rhetoric here, calling those he disagrees with, "dangerous". He should stop.
I'm glad to hear you say you have a bottom line and that privatization of Social Security falls below it. I'm not sure that all of those who agree with Silver would agree with you, but I don't know what the percentages are. There are far too many "serves the Boomers right" posts on progressive web sites for my taste. But at least you and I have this in common.
However, I still "haven't made up my mind on him yet", like you. While I'm not willing to be uncritical of Obama no matter what he does, I'm also not willing to declare the sky is falling if he says not-so-mean things about entitlement reform.
Fair enough. But back to the "dangerous" theme, where is the danger if President Obama receives say, a million letters saying, in essence, "You better not fuck with my Social Security."
Such an outpouring of letters may be totally unnecessary. It may be that Barack Obama had no intention of doing anything like what these letter writers are fearing. So what? Besides each writer wasting 42 cents, what harm would have been done? None that I can see. Such letters could only have strengthened Obama's hand in doing what he intended to do all along.
On the other hand, if his actual position turns out to be weaker than that, such a campaign may have the real benefit of making him think twice. Since SS privatization falls below your bottom line, I think you would agree that this would be a good thing.
Again, my goal is neither to exalt nor to trash Obama. My goal is the set of policies that actually get enacted. Obama, or any political leader, is merely a means to that end.
Hey, I tell you what.
Here's what we'll do. We need to n get this guy elected President. It's gonna be hard, because the US is a racist country and he's a Black guy. The only other option we've got is this lady who's married to a former President and won't apologize for voting for the War in Iraq.
Now,w e don't have as much money as she does. So we can't afford to pay everyone that does the ground work for us. We've got some top-notch guys leading this thing, but we need alot of volunteers to run this thing on the ground. We'll use these idealists, these 'radical' types to do the ground work. Set up a website so they can donate money to us. If they send us enough, we won't need federal matching funds.
Now, I know using radicals sounds kinda crazy, but can it be any crazier than gettinga Harvard Law Degree with distinguished honors only to go back and work on community problems in the Chicago slums?
Anyway, we'll use these guys and get them to register voters. Pass out buttons they bought with their own money. Make phone calls, drive voters to the polls. Network with people to get the word out. Stage events and block parties.
(Time passes)
Hole shit, we did it! we won. Wow. Now I guess I gotta get to work and do something with this country. What's that? All those radicals that got me elected want me to do something about GLBT rights? Look, I'm grateful those faggots gave me their hard earned cash and busted their asses for free out there for me. But I think we need to study this marriage issue a little more. We'll get to it in my second term-maybe. And DADT? Faggots, in my military? Oh come on! They don't actually think I'm gonna fulfill my campaign promises do they?
Man, thsoe radical faggots think they know it all, don't they? They think they can just elect a man and then he'll have to do what he said he would? In his first term? Ha! I might not ever do it. Who cares about those radicals anyway? I'm in control now! i don't need them anymore.
Call Nate Silver. Tell him we rational progressives don't have any more seats at the table for those radical liberals on his website. Tell them I said to fuck off and then die.
Damn, can you believe anyone would want me to do what I told them I would? The nerve!
What,s that? In Utah? The Governor? Are you kidding me? Isn't that guy a Mormon? the faggots'll never go for that. I don't have to do anything for them, they'll stay right here in the Democratic Party and give me more money when 2012 rolls around. You seriously think they'll go for that guy? Well, we'll see, huh?
================================
Yeah, Mr President. We'll see.
hey statler,
speaking as a bonafide faggot, why not ease up on the offensive lingo my man? i cant imagine you really think that obama feels that way and if you don't then that's a whole lot of 'faggot's for no good reason.
@ Chris Rich (sorry for the late answer):
Well, there is a reason why a progressive like Woodrow Wilson supported eugenics. Pure rationality without morality leads to rather inhumane consequences. For example, you could, in a PURELY rational way, come to a conclusion that stupid people are worthless for humanity and so they don't deserve to live. You could also come to the conclusion that fetusses with genetic defects shouldn't get born because they are too much of a burden on the society.
The Italian fascists were preceded and accompanied by a cultural stream called "futurism" (paintings, architecture). The german fascists used revolutionary methods in the social sciences to justify their theories.
You probably want to accuse me of condemning the whole progressive movement, but my beef is just with PURE rationality, as it is described in Nate's dichotomy.
Patrick,
Rick Warren at the Invocation. Delaying DADT until his second term. Saying the civil unions/Eqaul Marriage issue needs more studying before he'll comment.
Don't you feel like you're getting screwed? Used, thrown out like yesterday,s news? Especially when so many democrats on 538 will jump your shit for suggesting, as I did in the previous thread, that if Obama doesn't fulfill his promises in his first term that I'll jump ship for someone else who will?
Do you like it when Nate calls you an irrational radical?
Or maybe you think that change should be glacially slow. Maybe you,re so rational that change will come when we're both old and damn near dead.
Or maybe even later.
Statler,
i just don't like when dudes i don't know use the f bomb over and over again in a gratuitous fashion.
And perhaps i don't have as low a boiling point as you, but no, i don't feel like I'm being thrown out like yesterday's news. unfortunately Gay folks are somewhat controversial in America. Full rights for us will take a while. (and you're right, i may not get there with you. but we will get there.)
I'm not happy about putting off the repeal of DADT, but I dunno, I guess Im not getting too worked up about it either. There's other stuff going on. but youre right, that is an area, hey look at that, where i disagree with barack obama. AND, I'm still support him in general because I think he's a smart man and a good man.
And to be fair, Nate never called anyone 'irrational' did he? He said he was supportive of rational progressivism, but that only means he is a supporter of an a-moral brand of progressivism which isn't predicated upon a belief in a strong ideological credo. He defined this in contrast to 'radical progressivism' which IS based on a strong ideological credo.
Perhaps 'radical' is rankling some folks, but i don't personally see it as being a really terrible label. Ideological, fast-paced progressivism IS radical. And I disagree with it, broadly speaking, as a way to affect change. that said, i have lots of 'radical' friends who want to see things change as quickly as you do.
I just happen to think that slow and deliberate progress forged through consensus and compromise is what democracy is all about. Just because we won the election doesn't mean there aren't a whole lot of people out there who disagree with our policies. And it's still their country too. I'm firm in the belief that my policies are right, but I also realize that in a democracy you have to work with other people, even if you don't like them. that's the deal.
in fact, i think it's this unwillingness to consider other people's feelings and perspectives, even our adversaries,' that does make radicalism dangerous sometimes.
I found this useful. I've had some upsetting exchanges recently - the shock of coming out of the solidarity of the Bush years can be painful.
I lean temperamentally toward what you call the "rational progressive," but I also think it's a serious mistake to shut off the "radical" as merely temperamentally flawed. The problem is that many of the things radicalism responds to - the cultural of capitalism, sexism, colonialism/white supremacy/their aftermath - are so fundamental that even incremental progress must ultimately be transformative in order to be meaningful, and some changes (e.g. ending slavery) will unavoidably entail traumatic upheaval.
So, take your example of the "empirical fact" of improved standards of living - agreed. But it is *also* true that you don't work all day, every day, year in, year out flipping burgers. And, if you did, regardless of how much you were paid (and, even in a reformed system, it wouldn't be much), it would still be a shitty fucking way to spend your life. The issue of alienated labor and the amount of human life that is controlled by incredibly undemocratic institutions, i.e. businesses - these are things that only Marxist-inflected traditions address. But they should be addressed. They are real, they are empirically evident, and they are central to questions of human well-being.
I think it's obvious that issues relating to race, gender, sexual orientation are self-evidently also things that we need to engage with a transformative mindset. We need that element in the discourse. Likewise war and peace, though, like economics, this is a place where vast differences in methods of discourse create divisions among those who should or could be allies.
I actually think the reason I find this post useful is that you do engage here in a potentially transformative exercise - trying to talk about how we talk to each other, and not just what we say. And to that end I'll add that the problem I have most often with radical discourse is that I find it complacent, smug. I find it by far the most annoying when it is embraced by white, straight, young, healthy, economically privileged men, as it so often is. When revolution is embraced by people who feel like they will be fine no matter what, who do not possess a real, visceral fear of what throwing away the institutions and systems of society might bring, it is very disturbing.
This goes for my friend who wants to impeach Obama because of the state secrets thing. Impeach Obama? Really? And get who? How?
If anyone listens to this, thanks! I needed to write it out.
Patrick,
Oh, so now I need to apply for a license to use the word faggot from you? You're the Clerk of the GLBT Community now? I don't remember when you ran for that office. Did you get alot of votes?
Obama is a good man. There have been thousands upon thousands of good men that came and went without doing anything, and the evil that is discrimination has flourished as a result.
What upsets me is not his capacity to discern right from wrong. It's the signals sent by Donnie McClurkin, Rick Warren, shelving DADT and Biden during the VP debate saying he and Obama oppose Equal Marriage.
You think you are not worth the same as the rest of them, and so don't think it amiss that you have not been given the same rights as them. You are very rational.
I know for a fact that I am their Equal, and if they won't give me my rights, I'll take my rights from them. I am very radical.
In the end, the Rationalists said, "No, now... we don't need to impeach Blago just yet. He won't appoint anyone to the Senate. Just be patient, change comes slowly, and trust the process." Then Burris got nominated. At first the Rationalists couldn't believe it-they were too slow! So they tried to block Burris-only by then it was too late. And now, Dear Roland has been implicated in paying Blago for that Senate seat. Had they listened to the Radicals, and ditched Blago before he had the change to appoint anyone, we wouldn't be having this problem.
You see, timing is everything. You have to be able to judge when a situation is so urgent that it demands action, and when it can wait. These 'rationalists' think the world will wait for them to deliberate in committee forever. Radicals realize that the world does not stop spinning for any of us. In urgent situations, one must act with urgency.
I see GLBT civil rights as an urgent situation. I see it as a stain on America's history, a great evil which persists because, while we all know it must be changed and ackowledge that vocally, we refuse to act until our slow, glacial deliberations have resulted in the passings of generations yet to come, all born and then dead without ever having had the freedoms expressed to them by other countries.
Irony:We broke away from Britain int he pursuit of civil rights. We now have less civil rights than the Canadians, who stayed British.
Markets are not Capitalism. Markets existed before Capitalism. Capitalism is the system in which Capital (business) dominates all of society. Markets will exist after the dominance of Capital has ended. Marxists know this.
Statler
Yes, you weren't aware that I was made clerk of all the gays? it's actually more of a ceremonial position than anything else though. So, by all means, say 'faggot' as much as you think it will help the cause. i wouldn't dream of abridging your god-given right to use bad words in a public forum. I'm not your mother!
I guess when it comes down to it, Im just not as angry as you are buddy. I mean, i want the bank execs thrown in jail with Cheney and the rest of them, but that is not the thought that consumes my every waking moment. And i read blogs too! so it's not like I can just ignore all the bad stuff -which, of course, would be ideal.
But one of the things i like most about Barack Obama is that he too, even in the face of all that is going wrong right now, he too is neither angry nor polemical. I like that. I don't know, chalk it up to my white guilt/internalized homophobia i suppose.
But i'd much rather have cool-headed pragmatic progressives in power right now than hotblooded revolutionaries like yourself.
Now dont get me wrong, I still think it's great that you're around! We need people like you to take on the world's ills as if they were your own. That's really great. Sometimes you need that. And, sometimes, you just need someone to say, "hey, we're all going through a lot right now. Let's just calm down and think this through before we do anything else rash."
So call me all the names you want, psychoanlayze me if it makes your anger feel more righteous. But fact is, I'm on your side my friend.
We both love the gays, we both love the blacks and the women. We hate war, we love hope. And we are even essentially agreed that, yes, should it turn out that barack obama is a horrible failure as a president, and he invades foreign countries, and murders ovens full of gay baby indians, or even just doesn't do a very good job with this whole economic recovery thing, well then, I'll just be made a fool of for hoping things would be different this time. A fool with duely deserved broken heart!
Fortunately, no one will ever make a fool of you though Statler. No, you know too much about the world and how it works and you would never let some -ugh...politician...trick you into believing a single thing that rolls off his forked tongue! You've borne enough hardship for the two of us. You, unlike the dawdling, effete "reformers", are as wise as you are world weary and spiritually sound.
Yes, you will be one of those few, those lucky people who will go through the rest of their days always being right! no need of council for you, or even of friends or allies. They would only slow you down! With their feelings and discussions and inadequate political acumen.
Well, when that halcyon day arrives, when Barack Obama has been humiliated, and i too, wretched in my self-loathing, am humiliated for trusting so blithely and unthinkingly in him, for believing so naively in the decency of humanity and the ability of societies to work together towards a common good, oh, on that day i will know your rage and I will rise up, take my sword in hand, and with you at my side, we will storm the gates of the White House, storm the gates of the Churches, and protest every Christian till they too know the pain i feel, until they too suffer the way i have suffered under their oppressive yoke! Oh they will pray their God to deliver them, but, we know, you and I Statler - we know that there is no God! Those fools! And so, prayers unanswered, we will make their quietus with our vengeance! Those sheep will only know our wrath!!!!
till then...
Oh, and there is also this little matter of keeping campaign commitments that is neither right, left, nor center. It is about integrity, which Obama presents as his coin of the realm. He will need to guard his coin better than he has thus far.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obama-anxiety16-2009feb16,0,5538445.story?track=rss
Holy shit, does this post have wrong stuff in it.
Wow. I am glad you polling methods are pretty good because so far what I've seen of everything else makes me far more warry of having you on my side.
That said, Sirota saying that expert opinion was a euphemism for establishment opinion is a total bullshit lie and putting words in your mouth.
I would add another pairing. Radical progressives are romantics. They tend to favor revolution over reform, at least partly because revolution is romantic. Reform is dull, slow, and very hard work. Revolution is storming the barricades; reform is siege warfare.
Rational progressives are... dull? Stolid? I'm not sure what word to use here (and I consider myself to be a rational progressive). We see the dangers and the misery from revolution, and are less taken by the romance of it all. We want to preserve the good that we've got, while going forward.
But I know plenty of radical progressives, and they tend to be complete romantics. Evil and good are black and white to them, and revolution is all about the glory, not the guts. Or so it seems to me.
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