In chapter 6 of Red State, Blue State we talked about some of the fascinating trends in religion and voting, in particular the big jump in the religious/secular voting gap starting in 1992, in parallel with the big jump in the correlation between voting and attitudes on social issues. For example, this plot showing the average position on abortion among Democrats, Independents, and Republicans:
Now that we have the Pew pre-election polls, we could look at what happened in 2008. To start with, we found that the more you go to church, the more likely you were to vote Republican:
No surprise but it's good to start with the basics.
Now let's break things down by religion and denomination:
(The size of each circle is proportional to the number of people represented in the survey. In particular, most of the people who attend church more than weekly are born-again Protestants. Also, some nonreligious people go to church; I assume this is for family reasons but I haven't examined the question in detail.) As in 2004, churchgoing is more strongly associated with Republican voting among Catholics and born-again Protestants than among non-born-again Protestants, and all three of these groups represent approximately equal proportions of the population. Whassup with those non-born-again Protestant regular churchgoers: didn't they get the memo? The patterns for Jews and Mormons are also interesting (and consistent with 2004). Finally, you can see that the "no religion" people continued to be a strong Democratic bloc.
What about income and voting? In Red State, Blue State, we talked about the pattern, consistent with the story of "post-materialism," that religious attendance is a more important predictor of vote choice for the rich than the poor. Here's what we see in 2008:
This is similar to what we saw in 2000 and 2004.
Finally, we can look at voting and income for different religious groupings:
Within the "no religion" group, income is associated very weakly with how you vote. This is consistent with the idea that social issues are more important for richer voters; thus, the richer people with no religion are remaining on the Democratic side because they don't like the Republican Party's socially conservative and religious orientation.
Discussion of methods
I think my style is off-putting to some readers because, rather then state my point right away, I often will lay out an argument and then look at it from different angles. (This isn't such a problem with my own blog because I've gradually built up a readership over several years, and the readers/participants are familiar with my style. But it is an issue when I drop these long graphics-filled posts into Nate's blog, whose readers are more used to his and Sean's more topical approach.) Also, I don't always have a strong conclusion; sometimes I just want to put the data out there and let you draw your own inferences. Synthesis is great, and we try to do some of it in our book, but I think it's also possible to make a contribution just by putting some data out there.
One final remark. After seeing my earlier graph-laden posts, several commenters thought I should be controlling for more variables--for example, in my graphs of political ideology and partisanship among sports fans and nonfans, people wanted me to control for sex. That would be fine--I have no objection to doing separate analyses for men and women, and in any case the GSS data I used are public and so anyone can feel free to do this analysis and send it to me--but for the purpose of answering the original question, the data combining both sexes were fine.
Recall that the original hypothesis of the conservative commentator was that sports fans are disproportionately conservative but not especially Republican, and thus he thought they represented a ripe low-hanging fruit for the Republican Party. Actually, though, the data showed the opposite: sports fans were more likely than the general public to be Republican but they were not particularly likely to be conservative.
So this simple data analysis revealed something. (And, yes, I agree that a serious study of this issue would require the use of more data than a single opinion poll from the 1990s.)
I do run regressions, and I'll report some of these on occasion. But it's a misconception to think that simple comparisons are meaningless or that regression analysis is always necessary. One thing sophistication can give you is an appreciation for the simple things in life.
2.27.2009
Religion, Income, and Voting
by Andrew Gelman @ 11:18 PM...see also 2008 post-mortem, income, religion
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141 comments
No religion is not the same as atheism. A spiritual deist can fit the bill. I am surprised at the quantity of people labeling themselves as having no religion.
@Statler: there aren't many with "no religion" who attend religious services often, but it's not illogical.
1. Doing so "for the children".
2. Married to a member of the clergy.
3. Employed as an organist.
4. Crush on that cute blonde in the choir.
(etc.)
you can be "non-religous" but still be a "spiritual" person who has found a church that he/she feels comfortable with. I'm one of those people.
About the posting style. I'm someone who likes an overview. But I'm happy if you just say you want to throw the data out to let us react. Then I know not to look for a particular point. For people like me it is easier to process information if we have an idea of the point of the communication, including that there isn't a point. FWIW
zbicyclist said...
1. Doing so "for the children".
I'm an atheist, but I'll attend church so my children can be corrupted. Nevermind that I have rejected all the stuff priests tell people. It's good for children...
@juvanya
Going to church can be useful in teaching children right and wrong. As long as you find a church that you basically morally agree with, church will instill your basic moral beliefs in your children. As the children get older, then you can begin to discuss with them the deeper topics.
Why do parents tell kids about Santa? If you've ever watched South Park, then you know that as soon as your children find out he isn't real, then they go into a spiral of self-doubt and can no longer believe anything. But we still tell them about Santa.
(I'm sorry if any of you didn't know Santa isn't real. If i knew the spoiler tags I would use them. :-P )
As an atheist, I believe that being a believer is in many ways the easier path. Faith makes life more bearable and provides meaning, which has intrinsic value.
I don't know if I'll take my kids to "church", but I suspect I might be doing them a kindness if I did. (Heck, if I could put aside what I "know" is true and believe myself, maybe I would. I could always try hypnosis.)
juvanya said...
I'm an atheist. . . .
Andrew stated 'No Religion', not 'Atheist'.
There IS a difference, or didn't you know that?
Another marvelous post, Andrew. Re your discussion of methods, you must realize that many of the commenters here delight in being ornery for its own sake, or think every post should read like it was written by Nate. Either way, take such criticism FWIW. And when you do bust out a sexy regression, it'll mean that much more.
It's "rather than" not "rather then".
Andrew,
I'm posting for the first time to say that I am one of those readers who finds your posts a bit too dry. I love the charts and graphs, and I love trying to dig through the data to figure out what's going on myself. But I also know that you are much smarter than I am, and I want to know what *you* see when you look at the data. I would be very happy to read more of your analysis. What do you see in the data? What conclusions did you draw? What surprised you? What questions did the data raise for you?
Thanks for your thought-provoking posts. I hope you take some time to provoke even more thoughts!
I suspect you may not be seeing the same kind of trends with the (non-born again) Protestants because that's a pretty widely divergent group of beliefs there. As just a sampling you've got Southern Baptists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Christian Scientists, Religious Society of Friends and Unitarians all in the same group! My bet is if you just took those six individually you would have different results (in some cases fairly widely.) My guess for example, is Southern Baptists tend Republican regardless of attendance and wealth while Unitarians probably tend more Democrat regardless of attendance and wealth ... but again, that's just a guess.
I attend church just under weekly. I didn't vote for McCain.
Daybreaq:
Southern Baptists are generally considered to be evangelical, or born-again. American (Northern) Baptists, though, are generally counted among the mainline, non-born-again group. In general, historically German Baptist churches (typically found in the north) aren't born-again, while historically English Baptist churches (typically found in the south) are born-again.
There's no real litmus test as to what can be constituted born-again, since that's more of a state of mind than a finite categorization of a church's theology. However, members evangelical or fundamentalist churches are far more likely to consider themselves born-again than members of mainline churches. Pentecostals, Adventists, Charismatics, and churches derived from the Holiness movement in the late 19th century are almost always going to fall into this category.
On the other hand, the other major branches of Christianity (Anglicans/Episcopalians, Baptists, Brethren, Congregationalists, Lutherans, Methodists, Quakers, Presbyterians, Reformeds, Restorationists) have splintered into various liberal and conservative groups over the years, as I mentioned alluded to earlier about the Baptists. Even within the more liberal "mainline" churches, though, there are "Confessing Movements" that seek to make those bodies more conservative; people involved with the Confessing Movements could very well consider themselves born-again.
I enjoy your posts.
I don't have much to add here, but I'll say I don't expect the data to be crunched 7 ways accounting for every conceivable factor or whatnot. Your posts have provided plenty of information to digest. Thank you.
if i recall lieberman once said religious people are more moral.
considering the historically negative impact religion has had on the world i found his statement incredible.
do not take your kids to church because it is good for them. it is NOT.
a few reminders of what reprehensible acts have taken place and the strong tie they have to religion:
the inquisitions
the crusades
the witch hunts
the holocaust
slavery
sexism
the spanish conquest over the americas
the genocide in yugoslavia
need i go on?
please spare me and others for taking kids to church because it is good for them.
livemild:
And the purges of religious groups at the hands of athiests during every Communist regime should conveniently be ignored? Also, the Holocaust was the worst attack on religion in modern history, not by religion. A quick read through Hitler's writings shows a man with contempt of all organized religion.
does it seem odd to anyone that republicans/conservatives fall dead center in this "support for legal abortion" spectrum in lieu of strong opposition? does it seem odd that women don't have the right to choose if when the group that is supposed to be against choice isn't decidedly against choice?
amyers- your argument doesnt hold water.
the communist regime is an anomoly.
in cold terms, for every death or persecution at the hands of the communists, i could probably point to a thousand more deaths perpetrated by religious zealots
during the holocaust not all religions were targeted so you cannot make the case that is was some generic attack against religion. it was an attack against ONE religion. By your logic it is just a coincidence that all those people killed by the nazis were jewish.
you say a quick read of hitler shows a contempt for religion, well maybe you should read a little longer. hitler often spoke of his faith. indeed he did not have a contempt for religion he used religion like so many before him.
frankly you sound like a christian apologist
The Holocaust claimed the lives of as many Catholics as Jews in Eastern Europe. The Nazis also executed up to 5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses. And no, I would not consider the systematic persecution and prospective elimination of organized religion that comes with Marxism to be an anomaly.
I think this is an interesting analysis, but I'm curious about whether or not the sample size is large enough to draw conclusions from once the survey-takers are divided into denominational groups. How many people do some of those small circles (such as on the mormon plot) represent?
One request again. A straight income set of graphs. Currently its hard to say what is a stronger factor in voting patterns. Religion or income.
I did income roughly based on averaging the three religous lines on the income vs religion graph and I think its pretty close to the straight religion line. However, I don't know how much to weigh each line.
Its safe to say the more religious you are and the more income you have the more likely you are to vote Republican. I just want to know what is a higher indicator.
This is a stupid argument. The reason there are fewer atheist persecutions throughout history is that there are fewer atheists. People don't persecute because they are religious. They use religion as an excuse for brutality. Behind everyone of those, there is really an excuse of territorial expansion, racism, etc. that was the prime motivator, and this closed-mindedness/intolerance really doesn't show atheism/agnosticism in a positive light.
I don't come here to do my own analysis, I come here to see real quants do it. So - DO IT!
So, what was surprising about this data and why did it matter? I think the abortion data is the most interesting.
Go here - and use the tools to remove Rasmussen polls and you get a very different picture of the numbers. Ras is cooking the books, yet again!
http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/fav-obama.php
The holocaust targeted Jews as an ethnic group, not just a religion. Hence the measuring of people's noses and considering assimilated Christians Jews on the basis of parentage or even grandparentage.
Likewise, a lot of the Jews I know today consider themselves atheists. It's a part ethnic, part religious, part cultural, part national group, it doesn't fit neatly into a 'religion' category.
I think the reason you see these kind of trends with the (non-born again) Protestants is that this is where the majority of African Americans fall.
thanks all-i feel so enlightened. it is the atheists who are intolerant. people have never persecuted another because of religion-thank you i was so ill informed
i guess the world should be grateful that there are so few of us atheists around or we should have wiped out the entire world with our intolerance.
all those religious wars and persecutions didnt happen because of religion. it happened because they were atheistic meanies...
i would like to apologize to everyone here and those throughout history that have suffered under the brutality of atheism. this new found responsibility of death and destruction is a terrible cross to bear for me now, but i think i will survive
i know God is not on my side so i am so obviously wrong.
just so you know, there are at least a few fellow travelers who appreciate or even prefer the "data first, interpretation second" approach.
I'm a Catholic from a wealthy family, and I attend church weekly. I work in Democratic politics.
I know the figures show that's not a particularly unlikely statistical anomaly, but I'm proud of it.
Taking your kids to church is not 'better for your kids' if it's not what you believe in. What are you teaching your children by denouncing (you can't tell me they wouldn't figure it out in 18 years) everything that an authority figure says to them?
It would also be interesting to see an urban/rural split on religious voters, as I know that, at least in the midwest, frequent church attendees in a city are significantly more liberal than their rural counterparts.
Presenting data without crunching the numbers is fine, but presenting data without giving the numbers makes it a bit tough to tumble those data points around in ones head and decide what, if anything, they mean. Putting poor and rich on the x axis with no indication of scale or definition of rich vs poor is certainly an easy way to distort data (not that I believe that was the intention). Darrell Huff would be amused.
I regularly attend a affluent Lutheran church on the north shore of Chicago and believe most people who attend consider themselves a part of the religious left. There is a significant difference in Biblical interpretation between this kind of church and "born-again" Protestant churches. I agree that an analysis that looked at the non-born-again Protestants by denomination (or probably more importantly took into account liberal and conservative arms of different denominations)would see a lot of heterogeneity in this group. Good luck getting large enough sample sizes for this, though.
Thanks Andrew, I appreciate your analyses here. The one thing that I find slightly off-putting is that they are not introduced well and thus end up appearing somewhat untopical. For those of us who visit 538 multiple times a day, looking for Sean's latest take on Obama pronouncement X or Nate's new big brained, witty demolition of Republican idea Y... your posts don't quite fit in, partially because they seem to be a bit self-promotional and didactic, which is something that we the readers of 538 are not quite used to. The tone is a bit lecture hall-ish, rather than "share with your peers your exciting new thoughts".
Of course, your style is your style, and I wouldn't presume to dictate how you write, but I would love to see you introduce your topics with a tone that is a little less... professorial? Just my 2 cents! :)
Off-topic, but I would LOVE to see 538's take on the new proposed Tax plan -- to show some devastatingly precise and witty analysis on how the new taxes don't really burden the sub-$500k income bracket. NYT did an article this morning, but it was pretty thin on the specifics.
THANKS!!!!
Being a Republican and being against abortion are not necessarily correlated, its just one more issue that Republicans use to co-opt a massive block of potentially Democratic voters. I'm a Catholic who attends church on a greater than weekly basis. I am a pro-life (anti-abortion and anti-death penalty) Democrat, and I know a lot of others including a sizable number of priests. One thing that can be incredibly frustrating is the Democratic Party's strong aversion to taking seriously the large group of people who support essentially everything the party stands for except abortion. Catholic social teaching is overwhelmingly aligned with the Democratic platform. The unwillingness to open-mindedly discuss abortion drives away a lot of people who would aggressively support other progressive issues. Maybe Douglas Kmiec endorsing Obama and Bob Casey Jr. getting to speak at the convention are signs of things to come, I certainly hope so.
As a hard-core atheist that believes in nothing supernatural: I know some of my fellow atheists attend church weekly as a cover, a duty to appear religious. Some have wives or children that want to attend and regard it as a social outing.
Although I am not among them, many atheists have a neutral attitude on religion, kind of "whatever gets you through your day" attitude. Or "it's your money, spend it on whatever makes you feel good."
I can understand that, people spend a significant amount of money on fiction in the forms of TV, films, books, games and other art. If fantasizing about your after-life makes you feel better about your role in life, it pretty much is your right.
I can see that attitude, but I think religion is criminally fraudulent extortion so I don't subscribe to it. But I do see the convenience of it for many atheists.
Andrew -
Obviously, your posts are modeled on what is accepting in scientific journals.
Methods and results are presented first, and then conclusions are discussed in the context of a readership that is already familiar with the data and how it was gathered.
I would urge everyone who has difficulty with this approach to consider giving it a try.
I've noticed that my fellow Americans often cannot tolerate a simple statement of neutral fact. They pounce to the conclusion that some opinion is implied.
This may contribute to the literal denial of reality that is so common on the right, and not only on the right.
It's almost as if many Americans assume that evidence is something you make up in a biased way, to support an arbitrary opinion that was invented before any evidence was examined.
Try it the other way some time - evidence first, opinion second. You may find it enjoyable.
I wonder if "no religion" and atheist are the same. I attend a Unitarian-Universalist church. I refer to it as "the atheist church" or "the church of the bleeding heart liberals." For example, our ministers have refused to perform any marriage ceremonies until everyone has the right to marry.
I'm lazier than any of you, but I nonetheless argue that the differences in Andrew's style as compared to Nate's or Sean's, are what make them the perfect addition to this site. Yes, Andrew asks you to at least think a little for yourself, and yes, ow, it hurts, but I appreciate the effect his style has had on the comments section.
Nicholas -
I am a pro-life (anti-abortion and anti-death penalty) Democrat, and I know a lot of others including a sizable number of priests.
I'm not formally religious, I respect your opinion, and I strongly agree with you on the death penalty (although I am otherwise "tough" in attitude toward violent crime).
I very strongly support your right to oppose abortion and would fight to the death against a policy of forced abortions. I very, very strongly support your absolute constitutional right to try to persuade others not to make the choice of abortion, to promote adoption and programs for pregnant women and single mothers, etc.
However, I don't believe that abortion should be illegal for those who don't share your beliefs. What would the penalties be? How would you enforce it?
(Before R v W, abortion was legal in plenty of places, and punishments ranged massively where it was illegal, but it was never treated as murder.)
One thing that can be incredibly frustrating is the Democratic Party's strong aversion to taking seriously the large group of people who support essentially everything the party stands for except abortion.
I do take you seriously and respect your views, but I don't think that anti-abortion laws are good social policy.
I'm against many things which are legal, but I don't necessarily try to make them all illegal.
I prefer Andrew's approach of "letting the data speak." Of course, Andrew is a university professor with real training (and the ability to cite sources) while Nate is a sabermetrician (and a good one at that) who dabbles in political science in a way that is often very different from the way political scientists approach questions about political phenomena.
Another good reason to attend church, if you find the right church, is to learn the Bible without having to read the dang thing. It may seem silly to some people, but being a strongly non-religious agnostic married to a devout pentecostal, I've found that the church we've compromised on seems to be doing a great job of just going through the stories in the Bible, and as a writer and student of history I'm finding it kind of intriguing and literarily useful. But I'm just too lazy to crack the book myself.
Of course, my primary reason for attending is for the strength of my marriage, like going on a regular date.
Nicholas, on the subject of discussing abortion. To oversimplify my views, I'm pro-life but also pro-choice (or perhaps, better put, "cautious about regulation"). I've got a few outspoken Catholic friends, and my wife is also pretty strongly anti-abortion. Fortunately, I can talk to my wife about abortion, at least to a degree. But when the subject comes up with my Catholic friends, they all speak to me with a tone of unquestionable authority. Their view is undeniable in their eyes, and any variance from it on my part is seen and treated as ill-informed. I'm not saying all Catholics are like this, but in my experience it seems to be a trend. It could be the liberal Democrats are used to this behavior and batten down the hatches when encountering anything that sounds like opposition to abortion.
It would be really nice to talk to pro-life people about how to prevent abortions, and which are truly necessary and which are not, in a passionless, scientifically supported manner. Unfortunately, the passion all too often comes from both sides with extra helpings of anger and fear.
Also, I found the one discussion I had about ectopic pregnancies ridiculous -- where-in abortion is still not acceptable, but when you perform a tubal ligation and remove the fallopian tube with the fetus in it, "inadvertently" killing the fetus, it is acceptable. Never mind that in the minds of many doctors, performing an abortion on ectopic pregnancy basically equates to a tubal ligation. Of course, my suggestion that the tube itself may be more important to the mother and the future of the human species itself than the fetus will almost certainly fall on deaf ears, so why even mention it?
In short, the Democratic platform is against over regulation of abortion on the grounds that it is oppression of women's rights, and in some cases threatening their lives by hogtying their doctors. That sounds complicated, but it's really nearly as hard line a stance as "you can't kill babies!"
I am an apatheist. I don't personally care about religion. I see religious behavior as a very, very common human behavior, across all of history and in all parts of the world. It's just a case of me not sharing this common human behavior.
James said -
The reason there are fewer atheist persecutions throughout history is that there are fewer atheists. People don't persecute because they are religious. They use religion as an excuse for brutality. Behind everyone of those, there is really an excuse of territorial expansion, racism, etc.
Which is clearly true in most cases.
livemild said -
thanks all-i feel so enlightened. it is the atheists who are intolerant.
If you have a problem with a specific evil human behavior such as killing, enslaving, oppressing, or censoring, why don't you criticize that type of behavior directly? Many religious people are against these types of things, and many atheists have indulged in them.
Tony C. said -
I can see that attitude, but I think religion is criminally fraudulent extortion so I don't subscribe to it.
I see plenty of fraudulent extortion in the form of religion, but also plenty of religion that isn't deliberately fraudulent, and plenty of fraud that isn't religious.
"It would be really nice to talk to pro-life people about how to prevent abortions, and which are truly necessary and which are not, in a passionless, scientifically supported manner. Unfortunately, the passion all too often comes from both sides with extra helpings of anger and fear."
Jonathan, I agree with you totally that we need to put aside our emotional response to the issue in order to have any kind of productive discussion. One of the reasons guys like Douglas Kmiec (and myself) supported Obama was that they thought that he would ultimately do more to prevent abortion (and other bad things) in his fight for social justice than John McCain. After all, in 12 years all the Republicans did in congress was halfheartedly try to get the supreme court to reverse Roe v. Wade, which would ultimately leave abortion legal in all but a handful of states anyway. I think that if the Democratic party made an effort to find common ground with pro-life people and work on unplanned pregnancy prevention and support for poor mothers/children it would make a huge difference.
I know there are serious issues having to do with medical necessity. For the record both myself and the Catholic Church are supportive of the termination of pregnancies where there is a significant threat to the life of the mother (as the child would not survive anyway). I know it is very controversial but most pro-life people think that the life of the mother and the life of the child (in fact all human life) is equally valuable. To us it seems impossible to conceive of a just society in which all human life is not considered equally valuable, and we can see no way to argue that humanity does not begin at some point prior to birth. We think that any medical decisions should be based on the what is best for the health of both individuals involved. I'm not trying to dogmatically assert the truth of my position, just trying to explain what it actually is. Its also the reason a lot of pro-life people don't support abortion in the case of rape. Its not a lack of compassion for the mother but rather the fact that it would be hypocritical for someone to say an unborn child is a person unless...
There are some very difficult ethical issues involved which both sides sometimes refuse to acknowledge. For example many anti-abortion people basically think that a young woman who gets extramaritally pregnant has made her choice and now has to deal with it. If that means that she and her child grow up in poverty with no opportunities, well thats her choice. I have difficulty believing people can say that and then claim to have sound moral judgement. They seem to think an unborn child deserves compassion but one that has actually been born does not. At the same time many pro-abortion people seem to have no trouble with saying that an infant of any age is a person, but they support abortion in cases where the child could survive if born. After all, premature infants have survived after just 21 weeks in the womb (thats 19 weeks early). I know it is justified by asserting the rights of the mother (maybe that's even valid), but surely they have to see that there is a legitimate moral quandary there. Pro-choice people need to acknowledge the necessity of answering the questions: When does human life begin, and if it is prior to birth why should the rights of one person trump those of another?
In conclusion: There is a often a lack of honest discussion of the issue on both sides. The Republicans spent over a decade in power talking tough and doing absolutely nothing to address any of the problems involved. I personally think, and a lot of pro-choice people would agree with me, that we as a country need to make sure that no woman who wants to carry a pregnancy to term feels like she has no choice but to have an abortion. Ultimately that and other positions where people on both sides of the issue see eye to eye need to be used as a starting point, because surely we can't reconcile our differences if we can't even work together on the things we don't differ on. If we all just calm down and work together in a civil way maybe somewhere down the line we can find some as yet unknown solution everyone is happy with. We certainly won't find such a solution if we don't.
Regarding "No religion church attenders" keep in mind that both the reported religious belief and the rates of church attendance are self-reported. So there's a potential for noise in those responses. It's well known, for example, that people tend to overreport the level of church attendance, just as they overreport their level of voting (a form of social approval bias in survey responses).
Now as for why a "no-religion" individual might actually attend church, some of those suggested above make sense to me, whether "no religion" means "I am not religious -- not a believer" as opposed to "I don't belong to any religious organization" or "I don't identify with any particular religious denomination."
But I can add a case in point (me), in which I can identify with a particular religious background but usually respond to survey questions on religion by saying "none" or "not a believer." But I do attend religious services a couple of times a month (sometimes more than that). Why? Because a neighbor comes over and asks me to, so I do it as a neighborly thing. Thus on some statistical analyses, I might be counted as "religious" based on church attendance, but I'm not religious at all.
Thanks for the data, very interesting. This site was lacking a bit of 2008 post-mortem, so I'm happy to see it. By the way, is there a way to see how many McCain voters were unemployed? I guess many of them voted for Obama, but I think that the anti-unemployment funding stance of several republican governors is going to hurt them.
Since I am part of the Religious Left (which has been making a comeback), I am always surprised by these charts. I don't think there are 5 McCain voters in my whole church.
I realize that I'm giving anecdotal rather than statistical feedback, but since I am married to a Baptist preacher woman, work for Every Church a Peace Church and teach philosophy at a community college, I travel in many different circles, both secular and religious. I know the religious McCain voters, but also the religious Obama voters. I know the secular McCain and Obama voters, too.
So, my impression by thousands of conversations since '04 over all 50 states, was that the '92 split was finally slowly healing. But your data don't support that--and that worries me on several levels.
Andrew , I like your non-polemical style and your balanced presentation.
Your statistical scholarship is really evident and I think you are so smart that you forget what a small baseline many of us have. I had trouble interpreting the grqaphs and needed my pre-determined point of view to deconstruct the methodolgy and interpret the results. What i am certain I missed are any contrarty trends. You might explain things better.
The takeaway for me is that religious folks tend to support Republicans and McCain more.
This has long been known.
How curious that folks who make the most time for God and commnity worship in their lives tend to be conservative and least likely to support Obama and Democrats.
Quite damning, I'd say.
Now let's hear it from all the athethists and organized religion hates who can only worship at the altar of Liberalism and its new Metrolitant: Barrack Obama.
I was going to put this comment on the previous post but it fits very nicely here too.
I do hope that when people talk about the Republicans being 'conservative' that they realise that the Republican party in the US now has very little in common with conservatism as practised in Europe and elsewhere.
I had to have this conversation many times with my friends in the UK (I'm a Brit living in the US) who believe that the Republicans are essentially similar to the British Conservative party. Maybe they once were but they're not now.
Republican politics is now so infused by extremist religious views and an almost pathological fear of 'socialism' (rendered as a fear of government intervention in any form) that it should be considered a totally unique world phenomenom.
The fact that these charts are even relevant is interesting; the fact that Rachel Maddow can have a serious conversation with a Republican thought leader who believes that bank nationalisation is the first step towards the coming Rapture and the arrival of the Antichrist is scary beyond belief.
@Nicholas:
To us it seems impossible to conceive of a just society in which all human life is not considered equally valuable...
The issue comes down to your definition of "human," which is where we disagree. As a non-believer in spiritual existence, to me DNA alone does not constitute humanity. How about brain dead people? Can't we pull the plug on them?
What makes people uniquely human is the neo-cortex, and that has not even begun development in the first two months of pregnancy. In human terms, fetuses without any functioning neo-cortex are essentially the same as a brain dead patient, and stopping life support in either case is equally amoral. Both cases may be sad occasions for somebody, but they aren't murder.
In my experience, the most prevalent non-religious argument against this position is that the fetus is "potentially" a human being and deserves protection. Well every egg produced by a fertile woman is a potential human, but we don't demand woman remain constantly pregnant, and we rightly permit woman to choose whether they ever get pregnant. I don't see how the situation varies within the first two months of pregnancy.
The second frequent argument is that, for near-spiritual reasons, all life is "precious." No it isn't. As an atheist, what is precious to me is the happiness and well-being of people that exist. The fetus isn't a person. The mother is. If she thinks having the baby is going to be a burden, or if having the baby can terminate her education or destroy her finances or whatever, well, the life of the mother in toto, both present and future, is more important to me than the non-human life of the fetus.
The modern woman gets two or three eggs fertilized out of a lifetime supply of 300 or so. They are all alive and all equally precious and all equally potential humans; I think we should let her choose which 1% of her eggs to bring to term. It will produce happier and more successful moms and happier and more successful babies.
Great post Andrew.
I love your method of laying out the data before discussing any pertinant conclusions.
Most of this is what I expected. It squares with what I have heaard before, and what I see anecdotally. I was suprised however, in the stark differences between mainline protestants and catholic patterns of voting. Why does more frequent church going corelate with McCain voting for catholics but not protestants?
@Statler N Waldorf:
None of this explains why persons with no religion who attend religious services (WTF???) monthly are more Republican than those who never attend religious services or those that attend weekly.
I think the link is business; business people are more likely to be Republican because R's are on their economic side, and (I think) business people are more likely to attend church as a show of faith they don't feel, as a kind of insurance against alienating customers, employees or financial partners.
Anecdotally, one small business owner for whom I worked as a teenager, in a small Illinois town of 5000, attended a town church weekly.
He retired and sold his business, and the week he stopped working he also stopped attending church. I suspect his attendance was primarily prophylactic.
hey guys,
I have to do a research paper on some aspect of post-WW2 America, and having been a long-time reader of this website and a big fan of all things politics, I want to do something with politics. Can you guys suggest any interesting topics?
Thanks,
Simon
@Statler: you're missing one of the points of my previous post, and this is that "religiosity" can be measured in various ways. It's not a matter of cleaning the data and it has nothing to do with the statistical software you might use. It's rather a matter of what do you mean by "religious"?
Usually, researchers use one or more of the following indicators.
a) BELIEF: Are you a believer? Do you believe in God? Do you consider yourself "born again?"
b) IDENTITY/CHURCH MEMBERSHIP: Do you consider yourself a member or do you identify with a particular church or religious denomination?
c) OBSERVANCE/PRACTICE: How often do you pray? How often do you attend religious services? Do you celebrate (name the religious holiday)? Do you observe religious dietary laws? Do you observe the sabbath (esp. relevant for orthodox Jews and Muslims).
These are three basic ways of measuring "religiosity." No one of them is the "right" one because the underlying concept is multidimensional.
@Simon: Here's a topic for you, which you can make as small or as large as you want.
What are the trends in party identity in America? What explains the trends?
I was actually thinking of doing something along those lines, maybe not specifically party id, but perhaps ideological trends...
Anybody else?
"The issue comes down to your definition of "human," which is where we disagree."
Tony, I would agree that that is where we disagree. I also agree that DNA alone does not constitute humanity and that unfertilized eggs aren't human. I also do not buy the argument some people make that a fetus is "potentially" a person. I don't see why anyone who thinks a fetus is only potentially a person would be opposed to abortion.
To get back to our disagreement, I think its very difficult to come up with a definition of what a human being is. This applies to purely secular/rational thought as well as it does to religious ideology. It seems to me that the neo-cortex definition, while good intentioned, is really not an improvement. What kind of a neo-cortex does something need? Why is it relevant, all sorts of other mammals have one. What about fetuses after they have developed a neo-cortex, should they be protected or not?
People have had some pretty weird ideas of what constitutes human life. I want to make it really clear that I am not arguing that anyone here implicitly supports the following examples and don't feel like you should explicitly answer the rhetorical questions. Some people have argued (I'm not kidding) that young children aren't people and we should be allowed to kill them. Quite a few people around the world argue same thing about women. A lot of people (millions of hindus among others) consider all animals to be people and therefore protected life. Why shouldn't we define petty criminals, aids victims, or fox news viewers as ok to kill?
We need to come to terms with the fact that, although it sometimes seems like we can make an objective scientific judgement on the definition of human life, it is not a question that has any meaning taken out of the context of a society. There is an implicit moral judgement that has to be made before you can morally justify any action using factual information. A society can thrive that is based on all sorts of seemingly insane value systems, and examples of this are everywhere.
The real question that faces us is: How can we as a society define human life in a way that is consistent with the underlying moral principles on which our system is based? I'm not trying here to convince you that my answer to this question is right. My claim is that anyone who does not explicitly, honestly, and thoroughly address this question cannot participate in a rational discussion of whether the death penalty, abortion, euthanasia, or assisted suicide should be legal in this country.
@Nicholas:
What kind of a neo-cortex does something need?
How about, any neo-cortex? For the first two months a fetus has none, zip, nada. It is growth. The neural tube (literally a handful of molecules that eventually becomes a brain) develops in week 4. For the first four weeks, a "fetus" doesn't have a brain, not even the brain of a salamander.
Why is it relevant[?]
The neo-cortex is necessary for thought. If it can't think, it isn't human. even mice, rats and crows think and solve problems and even have dreams, and people kill them with impunity and without remorse. During the first two months of development, a fetus does not have even that level of thought.
What about fetuses after they have developed a neo-cortex, should they be protected or not?
To be safe, I'd say they should. As a scientist I would advocate erring on the side of caution; but not on the side of blatant superstition. Zero brain activity equals zero humanity; and since I do not believe in miracles, no fetus under one month old even has a brain capable of any activity, and no fetus under two months old has a cortex capable of anything remotely resembling even mouse thoughts or mouse dreams much less human thought, so I see no moral dilemma in ending the life. Past two months we have crossed the relatively bright line of cortex development having begun (although it won't complete for many months), the further we go into that gray area the more I am willing to err on the side of caution.
In fact, except under extreme circumstances of danger to the mother or severe developmental problems with the fetus, I'd outlaw all abortion in the third trimester, and even then require a written justification by some sort of medical board. By six months, not only is the fetus viable outside of the womb, but I believe there is credible evidence it can think, and in my book, is therefore a human with rights.
@Statler: this has nothing to do with relativism. It has to do with the ambiguity and multidimensionality of a concept (religiosity). And it has to do as well with problems in measurement ("meeasurement error") resulting from that ambiguity and multidimensionality AND the fact that researchers rely on answers by respondents to survey questions.
While you might seek to have perfect agreement between being a religious believer, affiliated with a particular church, and being observant in practice, neither data nor life itself is so absolutist.
Statler, obviously, if people who self-identify (in an anonymous poll) as non-religious, but go to church, are more likely to vote Republican if they go to church more often...
Then for that group of people, something that is associated with the desire to be seen in church, other than sincere religious belief, must be correlated with a tendency to vote Republican.
I'm not very old, but I'm old enough to remember when NOT going to some church was a big deal in the small town I spent most of my childhood in. It was taken for granted that plenty of non-religious people went to church. NOT going to church was making a big statement.
Going to church is a social behavior.
Staler loses again, when is he going to figure out he is not nearly as smart or interesting as he thinks he is?
to deny the historic connection between widespread destruction in the name of god is to deny reality. the difference between one atheist killing for greed or anger cannot be compared to the accepted mass killings that have been encouraged by the church. Like governments religion (and often the religious control in governments) has the resources and control to accomplish killing on a massive scale.
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
-Adolf Hitler
no atheist will ever utter those words, let alone put them into action.
The real problem with religion is that there is no separation between church and state-not here and not now. I could care less that other people have an imaginary friend.
As happened in Nazi Germany and many other countries is that religion was used as a weapon.
What more in the name of God?
it aint over folks.
Also, there is substantial evidence that many Americans lie about how often they go to church.
When church attendance is studied by observation, not by self-report, the evidence suggests that Americans attend church in far smaller numbers than they claim.
All we know from this study is that the more often a Catholic, Jew, or certain type of Protestant CLAIMS to attend church, the more likely they are to claim to have voted for John McCain.
Although I think that those McCain voters probably do attend church more often than others, it's also possible that McCain voters are merely the biggest liars about how often they attend church.
And the two possibilities are not entirely mutually exclusive. They could be slightly more frequent attenders, but also much more egregious exaggerators.
In much of the US it is not uncommon for families to attend church together--religious or not. To some non-believers (and I suspect this describes many) religion is just not important enough to refuse to go. So they casually become non-religious churchgoers.
@Statler: you're straying way off topic, and it doesn't help here.
Yes, you don't want concepts that are ambiguous if you can avoid them. But some concepts are just ambiguous, or are understood differently in popular discourse and even in scientific discourse. Religiosity is one such concept, and yet people insist on measuring it somehow, because they want to know the correlates of religiosity.
And so to reduce ambiguity and to reflect the different dimensions of the concept (such as the ones I've distinguished), researchers have standardized the way certain questions are asked. That way at least things are measured as consistently as is reasonably possible, but without reducing the underlying ambiguity of the concept. I've illustrated these standard questions, though you could go to some actual standard questionnaires, such as those of the General Social Survey, and get specific wording if you're interested. (It's online somewhere I'm sure. Many surveys ask questions on religiosity.)
You also have to realize that having clear, unambiguous concept is just the starting point. You then have to have valid operational indicators (questions, in this case questions asked in surveys), a method of administration of the questions (survey sample, survey by paper or phone or in person -- each of which may have some tendency to error).
You then have to contend with the fact that people may give erroneous answers ("Ooops, can you repeat the quesiton?"), may not give precise answers ("Oh I go to church fairly often"), or they may not have a clear answer ("I'm not sure about my belief in God, but I'm not an athiest. And no I'm not agnostic." Instruction to interviewer: "Re-read the question." If R is still unable to answer, mark the category "Don't Know").
And then you get a lot of data, and damn it all somebody made some data entry errors. Bastards! Well what do you get when you pay $5.75 an hour?
This process of "data collection" why we use multiple indicators and statistics to measure key concept rather than finite mathematical methods. We don't (usually) attach electrodes to people or do brainscans to measure survey responses. Instead, we ask questions in surveys, we try to make those questions as precise as possible, we try to be consistent in how the questions are asked to different respondents, we try to reduce recording error and data entry error as much as possible.
This is research.
i think people are lying about how religious they are or arent too.
for what its worth- i like you statler
juris-how many people do you think know the difference between agnostic and atheist?
not many i bet.
in that regard hi have something in common with bobby jindal- i dont think people are so smart- i dont talk down to them but still...
Statler -
Actually, you do have a decent if subtle point there.
I'm assuming that "no religion" and then attending church could mean pretty much any church.
My brother would certainly identify as "no religion", or at best some kind of dharmic philosopher. So would his wife, for that matter. But since my nephew was born, they go to occasional Catholic ceremonies, for the sake of her parents. However, my brother certainly wouldn't self-identify as Catholic. And no, I don't think it will do the kid any harm.
My brother and I were often taken to Protestant ceremonies by our mother, because it was important to her (extremely liberal and tolerant) parents.
I have some unflattering opinions as to why right wingers would ostentatiously claim to be religious, but I'm tolerant liberal who doesn't want to be a jerk toward the sincerely religious, so I'll keep them to myself.
@Simon:
So many projects, so little time.
1) Age sensitivity: Either by state or congressional district; if we examine the voting of each age group, which group was most likely to vote for the winner (governor, senator, congressman, whatever)? Which was least likely to vote for the winner? What was the percentage difference between them? Ultimately, where is the generational divide hot, and not?
2) Buying Votes. I am sure these records are out there somewhere. For Senators and Congressman, to what extent does bringing home the bacon ensure re-election? Does getting federal dollars for your district actually buy any votes, or not? If so, what does a vote cost, in each state? Where are they expensive, and where are they cheap?
3) Population Density. I did a study back in grad school for a sociology course; one of the things I chose to study was voluntary underage pregnancy (girls under 15, not pregnant by forcible rape or incest).
I studied over forty variables, using factor analysis and multivariate regression, and ultimatey none of the things you think matter actually make a significant difference. Not religion, not race, parental income or frequency of church attendance, as long as you include one critical data item: Population Density in their county; the number of people per square mile.
The chance of a 13-15 year old girl getting pregnant rises linearly with density, up to a certain point (Austin TX was perfect) and then levels off.
My hypothesis was simple; the higher the density the more eligible males she is exposed to and if she is susceptible (about 1-2% are) then the more likely she would encounter a male that both attracted her and was stupid enough to have sex with her (on average, the fathers in this study are eight years older than the girls; i.e. 20-22). In a dense enough area, all the susceptible 13-15 year old girls found idiots they had sex with, and at that point the pregnancy rate levels out to a constant.
We study religion, income, and all this stuff. It would be interesting to see if something as simple as population density correlates with party identity. I already suspect it does; urban areas have high density and rural have low, and are famously liberal vs conservative. But still, where are the transition densities? Which states buck the trend? Which exemplify it? Does some other variable like religion or income actually account for bucking the trend?
If you include Population Density in a multivariate analysis of voting trends, how much does it weaken the effect of religion or income?
BTW, Statler: The vast majority of concepts that are used in social research are subject to either some ambiguity or some difficulty in measurement. We can't throw them all out for that reason. Instead we do our best to make precise definitions, choose valid and reliable operational indicators, and measure and adjust for possible error (including misreporting and deliberate obfuscation or distortion). Party ID, liberalism, participation, religiosity, social class, sexual orientation, intelligence, narcissism, unemployment, etc.
@Tony C.
You have a well articulated position which is a lot more reasonable than most. I didn't mean to say that your position wasn't a reasonable one, just that you had to make a moral judgement. The questions were meant to be rhetorical, but I put the disclaimer below by mistake.
Brain activity is a much clearer delineation than birth, as you point out. You established two principles consistent with general American cultural values and stuck to them: thinking makes us human and better to err on the side of caution. As a scientist I agree with your second principle, and while I don't agree with your first I see where you are coming from and know where you stand. We also agree that you have to establish your starting principles and then the reasoning that leads you to your conclusion. I'm always surprised at how many people don't believe that. I'm a little reluctant to actually go into defending my views (I don't want to be a troll). If anyone is actually interested in hearing them I'd be happy to go through them though.
Despite the fact that we don't see completely eye to eye we basically agree that abortion shouldn't be legal for the majority of the pregnancy. We've established an outcome that would make both of us happier with the law than we are now. This is exactly the kind of sane dialogue I'm talking about.
Out of curiosity what variety of scientist are you? I'm in physics. Not sure whether I can legitimately call myself a physicist yet, I'm in limbo between being an undergraduate and graduate student.
livemild -
to deny the historic connection between widespread destruction in the name of god is to deny reality.
This is slightly ungrammatical, but no-one is denying that there has been widespread destruction and cruelty in the name of religion.
the difference between one atheist killing for greed or anger cannot be compared to the accepted mass killings that have been encouraged by the church.
Now, here's the difference between us. To me, it's exactly the same thing. Killing is killing. Mass killings ordered by Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and Pol Pot are not less brutal because they were ordered by atheists.
For me it's the killing that's the problem.
If some guy says he's religious, but he treats other people with respect, no problem.
If you're saying that religious people are statistically more likely to kill unjustifiably, you haven't made that case. All I know is that the vast majority of religious people AND the vast majority of atheists are not doing this kind of thing.
Like governments religion (and often the religious control in governments) has the resources and control to accomplish killing on a massive scale.
Historically, some organized religions have been able to instigate campaigns of oppression. So have people who were not religious.
Statler and livemild -
I don't "dislike" either one of you. I dislike threats of violence, even if I sympathize with why the threatener is upset.
After the Virginia Tech massacre, some wingnut made a comment in print that the students deserved to die because they didn't "fight back", I mean shortly after when families were still in shock, and I lost it when I heard about that and posted violent language on the internet. But I later realized that this did not serve as an effective critique of his comments, but rather, drew sympathy to him.
appears that those same religious states also watch more porn
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Business/story?id=6977202&page=1
thanks statler
i knew the internet was good for something! i always knew porn was good for something.
maybe you should remind others they dont have to pay-
nah i like the idea of a foolish red stater and their money parting ways!
harold-
"Now, here's the difference between us. To me, it's exactly the same thing. Killing is killing. Mass killings ordered by Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and Pol Pot are not less brutal because they were ordered by atheists."
you are equating the killing of an individual with the killings of a government.
i do not. both are equally reprehensible but the difference is
substantial.
That difference is not only in the sheer number of the dead, but in the public sanctioning making the citizens also culpable.
i am a pacifist strongly against the war and any war, but when my country goes to war how do i separate myself from the killing?
i pay taxes and i vote. am i any different than a german citizen in 1940?
sorry my grammar offended you
We have a winner!
This is both the least interesting post and the most myopic boring self important comment thread on 538, ever.
Nate, do you need to re-think these other posters? Andrew is not interesting, and Sean seems unable to come up with an interesting idea since the election....
@Nicholas:
I have graduate degrees in both mathematics and computer science. One of my favorite professors, however, was a statistical sociologist, and I used an elective to take his grad course for fun. I have extensive stats training, time series analysis, non-linear regression, financial market stats, etc.
As a Math/CS I have worked in data analysis for neuroscience and some extensive gene analysis in bioinformatics.
I am also pretty heavily into alternatives for artificial intelligence; primarily variations on genetic algorithms for pattern recognition and rule extraction. It's fun stuff, those little buggers can actually tell you something surprising once in a while.
Statler -
My brother is well into adulthood.
No-one forces him to go to church.
His wife's parents have a strong emotional attachment to the Catholic church, and it makes them happy for their grandchild to be exposed to Catholic ceremonies.
I don't agree that this study is flawed. I do think you make an interesting point, but by no means is the study flawed.
The study shows that in several major religions, those who claim to attend religious services more often are also more likely to claim to have voted for John McCain.
It also shows that this is about equally true within different income classes.
Although it is hard to compare what a rich, not-frequent-attender would do, relative to a poor, frequent-attender, the study clearly shows that within rich, poor, and middle class, claim of more frequent religious service attendance, of certain types, is positively associated with claim of voting for John McCain.
There is nothing flawed about what it shows, and it is unsurprising.
A study which raises additional, more detailed questions is not flawed; in fact, this is an excellent characteristic for a study to have. Such studies provide leads for good quality subsequent studies.
Nor is the study flawed because it makes a very, very clear observation in a quantitative way - among Jews, Catholics, and some Protestants, claiming to attend services more frequently is strongly associated with claiming to have voted for John McCain - but does not show "exactly why".
It is always necessary to observe reality correctly first, before explaining it in a mechanistic way.
Nor is it flawed because it studies Protestants, Catholics, and Jews, but not Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, or Wiccans. It studies what it studies. It does not prevent others from studying those religions.
livemild -
you are equating the killing of an individual with the killings of a government.
No, that is not what I said. Although I do consider all unjustified killings to be equally reprehensible on an ethical plane.
How is Pol Pot better than someone who killed in the name of religion? I gave specific examples of ideological atheists who killed brutally in the name of their ideology.
What I disagree with is the idea that all religion is associated with such behavior, and all atheism isn't. That's clearly not the case.
i do not. both are equally reprehensible but the difference is
substantial.
So actually we agree. They are different in many ways, but equally reprehensible.
That difference is not only in the sheer number of the dead, but in the public sanctioning making the citizens also culpable.
I don't disagree with this.
i am a pacifist strongly against the war and any war, but when my country goes to war how do i separate myself from the killing?
i pay taxes and i vote. am i any different than a german citizen in 1940?
I am not a strict pacifist, but I am vehemently opposed to the Iraq war, and not at all crazy about Afghanistan.
A big difference between me and a German in 1940 is that I have had complete freedom of expression and ability to vote ever since the Iraq war began. I have thus always been able to vote against it and express my opposition to it.
A German in 1940 would have no choices except to knuckle under, flee, or take up arms against the German government. But when the democratic, non-violent alternatives are there, they are better.
sorry my grammar offended you
It didn't, and I didn't mean to be a dick about it, but grammar can help to make what you are saying more clear.
Statler -
The survey is flawed because your respondents demonstrate a misunderstanding of the question when they claim to hold no religion and to attend religious services regularly,
Bullshit, first of all even if it were true that these respondents misunderstood, it wouldn't negate the rest of the data, and second of all you've been repeatedly shown in a completely obvious way how it happens that people who self-describe as no religion often attend services.
in the same way that a non-smoker that consumes a pack a day is evidence that either the question "do you smoke?" or "how many packs do you consume in one day" was poorly understood.
Bullshit again. This study documents how self-reported religious affiliation of certain types, and self-reported service attendance, impacted on how people said they voted.
Your data is garbage, plain and simple.
What's garbage is your incredibly stupid arguments. You'll say anything to "win".
I've taken you seriously a few times, but I won't again.
Statler N Waldorf,
If you look at the size of the circles, very few people of "no religion" report church attendance. Of those that do, many people here have offered valid explanations (eg. their spouse is religious and makes them go - the case for my father).
Moreover, you are incorrect with your notion that you must "start over" if there are problems with a data set. Statistics is designed specifically to address a world where data is often fuzzy and prone to measurement error. You never throw out a dataset, though you might qualify the conclusions drawn from it.
Measurement error is only a major problem if it is systematic. The data shown here does not suggest systematic measurement error, as the vast majority of atheists do not go to church.
That isn't to say the story the author is telling is above suspicion. What would happen if you controlled on age? Younger people are much less likely to be religious than older people, and much less likely to be rich than older people.
Statler AND OTHERS -
For clarity, if anyone else is reading the butt end of this thread...
I am, of course, most certainly not eighteen, not that that's relevant. I've never filled out a "profile" for this site, or for google or anything else. If something says I'm eighteen it's a default setting.
My comment about VT was sympathetic - admitting that I can also lose my temper.
Basically, Statler, you can't handle criticism in any form.
That's not a problem for me - it's a problem for you.
I don't dislike you - you need to get over yourself. What the hell do I care if some guy in New Orleans can't handle criticism?
Off-topic, but needs to be mentioned I think...
Has CNN gone completely over to the devil? There's not much balanced reporting on this page.
@Andrew- On style, it's nice to have some data that have only been massaged a bit, although it would have been nicer if the axes were better defined. I think that what people are missing is just a topic paragraph, so people have a rough idea where you're heading before hitting the first graph.
@livemild- I wish you were right, but the data don't show any clear correlation between religion and state murder, as several have pointed out.
@ Nicholas and Tony C. You (N) wrote "The real question that faces us is: How can we as a society define human life in a way that is consistent with the underlying moral principles on which our system is based?" Perhaps the key is to treat our moral principles as a collective social phenomenon, not a straight reading of some direct fact about the world. In other words, we have rigid rules against killing people (in some contexts) not because of some particular defined difference in sentience between people and other animals but because we need those rules to avoid living in constant fear. There is no way we are going to have a decent, trusting society with people doing micro-economic calculations of the utility of killing each other. So we make rigid rules. We draw the line at birth because it's sharp and well-understood and everybody who is in on the agreement is on this side of the line. Our dogs and chimps may have more developed feelings and more intelligence than some of our brain-damaged fellow people, but they aren't part of the community which understands and shares the rules and is looking to see if they can be trusted.
That sounds cold-blooded, but I think it reflects the actual way in which fuzzier moral intuitions turn into apparently micro-irrational rules, whose rigidity is valuable itself.
I just want to know what "size" means. Is it the diameter of the circles, or the area?
Diameter would be fundamentally misleading, but so is every "tilted" pie chart.
This article is somewhat strange. Where is the breakout of religion by race? Or are all the religious assumed to be white?
@ amyers
The Holocaust claimed the lives of as many Catholics as Jews in Eastern Europe.
Where did you get this figure from? Bishop Richard Williamson?
In the absence of explicitly stating the numbers of samples in each of the bins presented, I have to say that the circle-size motif feels quite misleading to me. The problem is that the numbers derived from the emptiest bins, and thus those with the largest uncertainties appear on the graph single points, while the bins that have the largest number of samples, and thus can offer a reduced uncertainty as to the degree of support appear as great big circles.
Of course, if the overall numbers are large enough, then the actual error bars on these plots may well be smaller than the scale of these graphs, but the overall scatter in the data seems to suggest that this is probably not the case.
I do not agree that this posting is in keeping with the standards of a journal article --at least not the ones that I'm familiar with. It's hard to see how people reading this article and looking at these plots can draw *any* conclusions from the data as presented. The scenario presented by the author may be correct, but the article does not present an analysis capable of falsifying the central claim: that there is any common tendency towards being republican if one attends religious services regularly which persists across a given set of denominations.
If I had to guess, based on the curves for protestants and catholics, the error bars might well be tight enough to support such claims, but from what is presented here, I'd question whether the error bars are tight enough to say anything about jews or mormons.
Michael Hohensee -
There are three separate issues here -
1) It's true that the results are presented in a very summarized way, and that sample size is not even mentioned, nor are any tests of significance. There is no methods or conclusions section. Etc. In this sense it is well below the standards of any journal article, as it is presented here. I'm probably biased by the fact that this presentation is congruent with other reports of church attendance and voting.
I should have been saying that I don't know whether the study is flawed, but that the arguments made here previously do not identify true flaws.
2) The general claim by posters that it is wrong to present data first and conclusions second, which I disagree with and have been defending the article against.
3) The claim that, merely because the study shows people who self-identify as "no relgion" attending services, that it must entirely invalid, which I find illogical.
Also, the implied claim that religious affiliation has an objectively measurable dimension, as cigarette smoking does. It does not, in most cases, and must be studied by self-report, but this does not mean it should never be studied. We simply need to clarify that we are studying self-reported religious affiliation.
You raise point "1)", which is an excellent point, and which the author can clear up with more details. If it turns out that his methodology is shabby in some way that has not yet been clarified, or that his sample size is too small, then the work is of poor quality, but given the intuitively credible results, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.
I have been defending the study against points "2)" and "3)".
my last post on this thread-
atheism is NOT a religion
nor is it defined by one thought
because some communists are secular or atheist this does not make all people who believe in secularism or atheism communists. nor are all communists atheists.
pol pot and stalin killed because of their political beliefs not their religious beliefs.
twice as many jews were killed in the holocaust then there were polish catholics.
those polish catholics were killed not because of their religion but for political reasons.
livemild -
my last post on this thread-
Mine as well.
atheism is NOT a religion
I agree.
nor is it defined by one thought
I agree.
because some communists are secular or atheist this does not make all people who believe in secularism or atheism communists.
I agree.
nor are all communists atheists.
This is probably true.
pol pot and stalin killed because of their political beliefs not their religious beliefs.
I agree.
twice as many jews were killed in the holocaust then there were polish catholics.
those polish catholics were killed not because of their religion but for political reasons.
Jews were ostensibly killed by the nazis for "ethnic" reasons, although but I have no reason to disagree with this.
The point others have been making is that religion associated atrocities do not generalize to all religious people, and not all atheists are good people simply by dint of being atheists.
No insult to atheists has been intended.
Michael Hohensee -
I'll also note that we don't even know what the contents of the questionnaire were etc.
So the underlying study upon which this very summarized post relies could be flawed. Or not.
But not in some of the ways that have been suggested.
@Michael (mbw):
[W]e have rigid rules against killing people [...] because we need those rules to avoid living in constant fear.
Okay. Exactly how does one live in "constant fear" of first trimester abortion? The fetus isn't afraid, it has no brain or amygdala or emotions to register fear. Nor does one need to fear for born children, including one's self. Again, you gloss over the definition of "human".
We draw the line at birth because it's sharp and well-understood and everybody who is in on the agreement is on this side of the line.
Who is "in on the agreement"? Isn't that just a tautology, those who have agreed have agreed?
Because although birth is well-understood and most sane people do agree born children should not be killed, that is like saying most sane people agree that being eaten alive by a shark is disconcerting.
You have deflected the question to a complete non-answer! The majority of people in the country think the bright line is either elsewhere or does not exist at all, so your "bright line" is completely bogus BS.
Personally I think, because babies born a month prematurely are viable outside the womb with no apparent brain damage, that an eighth month abortion is a murder. And they do have brains capable of fear and registering pain and distress.
You are not dealing with the real issue of when somebody becomes human. My approach is not a micro-economic analysis of the benefit of killing another human. A fetus in the first month is no more human than a mole or skin cancer to be removed; they both have human DNA and neither has a brain.
Mine is not even a relative benefit analysis. It is a moral analysis; morals that make no sense are simply superstitious mumbo-jumbo.
Yes, it makes sense to have laws that prevent people from taking the law into their own hands, this protects us from bullies and gang rule that become dictatorships. Those laws must provide penalties that the lawless understand and fear, like long term incarceration or death.
It makes sense to have laws with penalties for fraud or deception.
It makes no sense to have laws that enforce one group's superstition or magical thinking on another group, and that is what preventing all abortion does. There is no measurable harm to any human by aborting in the first two months, or in my opinion, in the first three.
You need to engage the central question in the abortion debate; when does an egg become a human being with rights?
In my opinion, it is demonstrably well after conception and demonstrably well before at birth, so neither is a useful bright line, both have the potential to destroy lives. Zero abortions destroy the lives of mothers, unregulated abortions destroy the life of viable babies.
I'll be honest here; I do like having the data just presented, as it is, but it is quite difficult to process in the long, single-column form of this site.
re: harold
I agree with you on points 2) and 3). Especially on point 2). There's nothing wrong with presenting data before or after one's conclusions. One typically does have to reach a conclusion before evaluating whether or not the result is interesting, after all.
I think I should step back and note that I don't believe that blog postings must necessarily live up to journal publication standards. Blogs can be a very good place for discussing preliminary work on a subject. I simply wish that the OP had provided a bit more of the context of the analysis, such as the sample size, the standard error, and as others have noted here, a link to the survey questions themselves. Such things are all too often ignored in the general media (online and off). This is why their inclusion is a large part of 538.com's appeal for me, and why I felt a bit frustrated by this article.
@ Tony C. Wow, I seem to have written in such an overly-compressed fashion that you have misunderstood the entire post in multiple ways.
First, on my actual position: I favor fully legalized abortion. Not running for office, I'm free to say that I think abortion is often the best option when it happens, although better birth control is always better in retrospect.
Second, on philosophy: I disagree that there is any "definition of human" which has any intrinsic moral consequence. There is no sharp line when somebody becomes human or, in many cases, when somebody ceases to be human. If we were to consider only the first-order consequences of killing, the allowed categories would spill all over the place, instead of staying in defined areas like war. But that would essentially mean that no one would ever have the security and trustfulness of peace. So we make hard-and-fast rules not to kill people even when they make big negative contributions to society, etc. This compact makes sense only within limits. I don't argue about the philosophically correct location of those limits any more than any sane non-religious person would argue about the philosophically correct position of a national border. You look for something that is simple enough to work. Saying that we respect the life of all humans once they're born is simple and easily understood. It leaves out many other valuable sentient creatures, including some fetuses and members of other species, but it's a good start. And it's much better than the disaster of trying to protect the lives of early fetuses. 8-month fetuses, like other animals, can experience pain but they do not live in fear because the lives of other fetuses were not protected. Likewise the rest of us don't live in fear of abortion.
I know you're not religious but it seems to me that you're looking for something more like a religious rule, so much so that you don't recognize a different way of thinking.
I had a short blog post on this addressing some of the questions people are raising. The stats are near the bottom of the post:
http://jackjenkins.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/the-religious-left/
@Statler:
All things are temporary, including us. So what does any of it matter? Why should we be so impressed, when nothing we do has any lasting gravitas?
This analysis, if it is to be taken seriously, forgives anything. Why not become a serial killer? Why not rape children? It will all be forgotten in a few thousand years anyway.
An argument that permits anything cannot be used as an argument for anything, it is just existential angst.
Thanks to technology, humans today are unlike humans of five thousand or ten thousand years ago. Around 2000 or 3000 years ago we start to have a record of mathematics and clear mathematical thinking. Euclid's work will be remembered even if his name is not, but chances are his name will be too. Unless we get struck by a meteor or go extinct.
This kind of existential angst is pointless. When I go to a movie or a restaurant, I don't expect the fun to last forever or even to be remembered forever. That doesn't mean it is all a worthless exercise! Having fun for a few hours can be an end in itself.
I used to be a consultant for companies. The happiest company I've ever seen (employees, owners, suppliers) also had the happiest customers. If people make a decent wage or profit, I think they are happiest when their work delivers real value to real customers that appreciate it, and they can see that for themselves.
Who cares what strangers five thousand years from now think about their ancient history, when you have billions of people right here that could be happier?
I suggest you start with one.
@Michael (mbw):
I despise religion and religious rules, except for the few common sense rules they have in common, which are secular (don't murder, don't steal, don't perjure yourself).
I despise any claims of supernatural moral authority, and anybody that claims such an authority is trying to gain power over others through fraud. Always.
Whether it is a priest trying to con his way into pay or a parent trying to control their child, it makes no difference if they are lying or saying something they believe, the fact is they are using a deity they cannot prove to exert control over somebody else's actions or emotions.
I seek no unjustified rule for behavior, ever. In this case, I see a need for a rule, thus a need for justification, and I wrote my thinking on a reasonable and scientific justification for early term abortion but not late term. This is the science of developmental biology, not religion.
And the special prize goes to...
PeteKent!
A free "Frankenchrist" album by the Dead Kennedys, signed by Jello Biafra
Religion and politics... please, we're eating.
@Statler:
I can't disprove your argument, I mostly agree with the central premise: five or ten thousand years from now, I and everybody I personally know will likely be forgotten. I don't buy the 100% forgotten idea, short of some world-wide civilization ending catastrophe I think history will survive at least that long.
But agreeing I will be forgotten is like agreeing the Earth could be obliterated by a rogue asteroid we never saw coming; it is a pointless exercise in determining how to spend my day, my life or my dollars.
In other words your nihilistic premise is true but is still a pointless distraction. Your conclusion assumes the only thing that matters is how posterity views us, and I disagree. Future people are just people; I don't live my life trying to make sure the six billion on the planet now all know me and remember me and respect me, or trying to conform to their view, or anything else.
Your reply reminds me of the response people frequently give when confronted with the suggestion that there is no God, no Eternal Plan, or purpose to life other than to live.
What? On what friggin' planet did you learn English, Statler?
I am an atheist you dope. Hard core, zero supernatural beliefs, not one shred or molecule of belief in gods, angels, demons, souls, afterlife, reincarnation, witchcraft, spells or any other bullshit.
I figured this shit out over thirty years ago.
So don't bullshit me with what negatives could be justified by my argument. If it is wrong, disprove the argument itself, but don't try to distract me by saying that it could be used to justify something horrible.
It isn't bullshit, dumb ass, it is called logic, but I can see you are logic-impaired. More on that in a moment:
The alternative argument could be used to justify even more horrible things, and has.
Precisely! My argument exactly! If the converse of the argument can prove anything, so can your argument be used to prove anything. If the variable "X" can be anything, then "1/X" can be anything too.
And that makes your argument just as useless and pointless as the argument "God is all powerful," or "Anything that happens is God's will," or "God has an Eternal Plan, but we can't know it," or "God answers all prayers, just sometimes the answer is 'No.'"
I rejected all that twisted pseudo-logic BS when I was 17, and I reject your twisted nihilist pseudo-logic BS 35 years later.
So take all the comfort you want, your attitude is no different than the attitude of a Cafeteria Christian, picking and choosing which biblical passages to obey and which to ignore.
(Let me note in a sidebar here that I see no Jews or Christians wearing tassels with blue threads on all their clothing; a direct biblical commandment from God to Moses that all God's children must wear them at all times. So all Christians are Cafeteria Christians. Plus, they don't stone to death their disobedient children.)
Anyway, I digress. Both Nihilism and Christianity are excuses to do whatever you already want to do however you already want to do it. You take comfort in nihilism just like Christians take comfort in God's love, guidance and protection. Both can be used to justify anything, and therefore justify nothing.
Me, I don't need a false belief in the future to justify doing what I want today. My suggestion to you was based upon empirical observation; people are happy when plans succeed, whether they are plans to make money, or spend money for fun, or romantic plans, or whatever. People are happy when they do something that "works", it is the universal reaction.
But it is none of my business if you want to justify your life with some idiotically pointless argument about how nothing matters. If it salves your conscience, after being an utter asshole to a waitress, to say "it will all be forgotten in ten thousand years," go for it.
But if that is the case you are just doing what you want to do anyway, which is treat people like shit and let it roll off you, and if that is what you want then just let your inner asshole out of the closet, Statler. Why waste mental energy on pointless justification?
(Let me note in a sidebar here that I see no Jews or Christians wearing tassels with blue threads on all their clothing; a direct biblical commandment from God to Moses that all God's children must wear them at all times. So all Christians are Cafeteria Christians. Plus, they don't stone to death their disobedient children.)
All Orthodox Jews wear the blue tassels. It's known as a tsitsit, and it's actually four white cords and one blue.
As far as abortion goes, certainly you can believe that the foetus is not a person and yet believe that abortion is wrong. Abortion is an unncessary surgery which expends time, money, and effort which could be better spent on other things, and it leads to eugenics (Having a girl? One quick surgery will change that, and you can try again).
Huh...my WV is Harim, meaning impure. Interesting connection between the two subjects.
@Matthew H:
I did say Christians, didn't I? and since the fictional Christ said right off the bat that every jot and tittle of the Old Testament law still holds, Christians are bound by it. And I don't see them wearing them...
As far as abortion goes, certainly you can believe that the foetus is not a person and yet believe that abortion is wrong.
No more wrong than having a mole or wart removed because you don't want it.
Abortion is an unnecessary surgery which expends time, money, and effort which could be better spent on other things, and it leads to eugenics...
Total bullshit. What proof do you have that abortion leads to eugenics? NONE. ZERO.
And as far as time money and effort, who the fuck are you to tell people what they should spend their time, money and effort on, and who the fuck are you to decide whether a woman thinks an abortion is "necessary" or not?
I'd argue to a 21 year old trying to become a lawyer or doctor, since carrying a baby to term probably ends that dream, an abortion can seem absolutely necessary to not ruining the life she has planned and worked years to achieve.
Unnecessary is relative; your blithe dismissal is like me saying you living in a house isn't really "necessary," after all a few blankets and a homeless shelter would suffice. And dude, the money could be spent on more important things, like feeding the hungry. Right?
@Statler:
You are an idiot, I have no slavish devotion to the law, and do not believe the law is all that holds people back. You can't read. So spout on, dumb ass, I don't believe in any fictional bullshit, but that is all you have to offer.
I believe the law and fear of prosecution prevents some immoral people from doing immoral things. I've been in business for thirty years, I can tell you first hand that I have sat in a room with hospital administrators that are more restrained by the threat of lawsuits than they are by the fear of killing patients.
So like a dope you take some specific unusual circumstance, Ted Bundy, and presume because he wanted to be a serial killer and got away with it, everybody that wants to be a serial killer will do it and get away with it, so laws against murder are pointless. They don't deter anybody. You, sir, are a moron.
In fact it is enforced laws against theft, against fraud, against not paying your taxes that keep people from committing shoplifting, false advertising and tax evasion.
I swear, you could not possibly be more solipsistic or juvenile in your assessment of other people's intelligence and motivations; no wonder you subscribe to an idiotic creed.
@Statler:
I didn't ignore your argument, I called it moronic, idiotic and solipsistic. You might use those words on something you haven't read, but I don't. I read it, and it was stupid.
I cannot see any way you can get what you say I believe in by reading my posts. I do not say anything like that. Thus, I conclude you are not arguing with me at all, but some stereotype talking in your head.
So as long as you refuse to engage my arguments, fine. I refuse to engage yours. Now it is possible I can shock you out of debating your fantasy dude and make you engage me, but if I don't, at least I get the satisfaction of calling you a dumb ass.
You see, Statler, for most people, their imaginary debate partners are more polite and compliant than real debate partners. That's why they debate them instead of real people. The problem is, your imaginary debate partner only has access to your brain, and can't come up with any answers to your best argument.
But a real person can, and that is who you were debating. Me. Not some stereotype or imaginary friend.
So here is a real person telling you, yes Statler, I read your argument. It is juvenile. How old are you, 16? Do we really have to debate whether or not we have a moral obligation to disobey laws we find fundamentally morally abhorrent?
It is ridiculous; show me somewhere in my post where I advocate blind adherence to the law or elevate it to a religious principle. You can't because I don't. You are debating some fantasy adversary, not me.
So here is a real person, Statler, saying yes, I read your peurile post, and it was stupid, and completely unresponsive to my post which I doubt you even read. Maybe you scanned it for keywords or something, but you attribute idiotic thinking to me that I do not engage in and to which I do not subscribe.
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