Quantcast FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: George F. Will Takes on Science, Loses Credibility

2.16.2009

George F. Will Takes on Science, Loses Credibility

Let's take a look at a graph. This is the graph that you would have seen in 1975 if you had evaluated average global surface temperatures over the 50 years from 1925 through 1974:



Do you see a cooling trend here? Certainly not. In fact, if you draw the graph back further, to the 1880s, you see a modest warming trend:



And yet, according to George F. Will, many scientists were convinced in the 1970s that global cooling was a significant threat to the planet. And if those scientists were so wrong before, why should we trust them when they say that global warming is a threat now?

There's just one little problem with this story, which reappears every so often in conservative discourse on the environment. Specifically, it's a crock of shit.

Certainly in the 1970s there were a handful of scientists and scientific reports that were concerned about the prospect of global cooling, the mechanism for which was usually given to be the greater number of aerosols -- tiny particles -- released by man-made pollutants that might concentrate in the atmosphere and block sunlight from reaching the planet's surface. An even smaller handful of these scientists may have been rather alarmist about the prospect; the media was happy to write cover stories on their proclamations.

At the same time, there was also already concern a about greenhouse effect caused by CO2 emissions that would result in planetary warming. There was a fair amount of debate at the time about which of these two effects -- the cooling effects of aerosols, or the warming effects of CO2 emissions -- would win out, or the planet would get lucky and stabilize at some sort of equilibrium between the two.

But there was certainly nothing of a scientific consensus, as Will sneakily implies, around global cooling. How could there have been given such underwhelming evidence in the temperature record to support the hypothesis? On the contrary, this was something of an eccentric position to hold, and most scientific papers produced at that time predicted that warming would win out instead.

(You might also have been able to infer this from the fact that Will makes more liberal use of scare quotes in establishing his position than anyone since the poor saps charged with marketing Gigli. "A Hilarious Tour-De-Force!", says the Tulsa Beacon-Journal.)

And indeed, the scientists who put their money on the warming horse have been right. This is what we get if we look at the 50 years of temperature variation from 1959 through 2008:



Or running the clock back a little further:



Few credible scientists would be bold enough to question that trend, and in fact, essentially none do.

This is disappointing stuff coming from Will, who has one of the best research staffs on either side of the Potomac, and whom I've usually regarded as being fairly intellectually honest.

In fact, more than disappointing, I find it a little depressing, having recently spoken at the TED Conference and having witnessed first-hand some of the terrific technologies that are already extant to mitigate climate change and having heard from some of the entrepreneurs who re-oriented their businesses to make them more sustainable (and increased their profits in the process). That so little progress has been made on climate change and sustainable energy in spite of the overwhelming economic, environmental and national security imperatives to do so is perhaps the single greatest indictment of our democracy.

142 comments

Hank E Pants said...

Thanks Nate... After months of calming down and leaving An Inconvenient Truth on the shelf unwatched I started thinking "Maybe Al is a little extreme and it isn't that bad". There you go throwing Science around again. I'm just baffled by people who can't fathom how little ole "man" can impact the planet.

Clarus Visum said...

The "TED Conference" link points to

http://www.blogger.com/www.ted.com/

Just letting you know so you can fix it.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Oh now, Nate, you sound just like that radical Al Gore!

Shame on you! I thought you were rational!

El Cid said...

There is a degree to which even those such as George Will should be grateful for the contribution of aerosol particulate pollution to the Earth's albedo (reflectivity), as right now it is helping to reduce the effects we're seeing from global warming right now.

In other words, yes, there is some global cooling due to particulate albedo effects, but it is not a NET cooling effect -- rather, it is helping to reduce the dominant rise is the Earth's global energy budget due to the reduced rate at which outgoing longwave IR photons carry Sun-absorbed heat back into space.

John Emerson said...

This is disappointing stuff coming from Will, who has one of the best research staffs on either side of the Potomac, and whom I've usually regarded as being fairly intellectually honest.

As a rational progressive, that's what you have to think, because to do otherwise would be extremist and populist. But Will is not intellectually honest. Like David Brooks, he's just shrewd enough to do as much harm as he can without saying totally ridiculous things often enough to completely discredit himself with weenie Democrats.

shma said...

SnW: Quiet, you (Seriously, though, framing that debate as being between 'rational' and 'irrational' liberals is like framing the abortion debate as being between those that are 'pro-life' and those that are 'pro-death').

For those of you that don't know about this site, it is a great source of information on climate change. It also contains a refutation of pretty much every BS argument against climate change that deniers keep bringing up,from 'Global Cooling' to 'But Mars is experiencing global warming too!' to 'That hockey stick graph is a lie'.

Kennyb said...

Nate, can you (or anyone else) link the temperature data for the charts you have, indicating how it was collected and commenting intelligently on it's accuracy? I have a colleague at work, who was an Air Force weatherman, and who is politically moderate and otherwise intelligent, that insists that the evidence does not support global warming, let alone manmade global warming.

Pragmatus said...

All this means is that George Will has jumped onto the mindless GOP talking points wagon. He has reset his brain to zero.

Blather is the only tool they have left--it is interesting to watch the parallels between today's GOP and the Democratic Party of the Old South just prior to the Civil War. When all their rational arguments had been parried, they resorted to screeching then trying to take all the toys and go home. (Trouble was, some of the toys didn't belong to them.)

If the South ever gets it in its stupid head to secede again, the rest of the country should allow them to do so gladly. Of course Stat/Wall could emigrate to the North if he chose; we would welcome with open arms the "wretched refuse of their teeming shores..."

:o)

Jaime said...

Hi,

Why do you compare all graphs to the 1951-1980 average temperature. To be fairer, you should compare to the average of the period your analyzing. Not saying it will be prettier or support either side of the question, but more intellectualy transparent...

Rational progressive here too, by the way. Can you tell?

David said...

Shouldn't that be "anomaly"?

Also, I can't remember who it was who said, "They were wrong when they said the Earth was flat. They were wrong when they said it was a sphere. But to suggest that both beliefs are equally wrong is to be more wrong than either of them." The argument that past errors of scientists destroy the credibility of science is an argument not only against science, but against all intellectual progress. It's something I'm more used to hearing from Creationists.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Fuck The Creationists

by

M.C. (Stephen) Hawking


Ah yeah, here we go again!
Damn! This is some funky shit that I be laying down on your ass.
This one goes out to all my homey's working in the field of
evolutionary science.
Check it!


Fuck the damn creationists, those bunch of dumb-ass bitches,
every time I think of them my trigger finger itches.
They want to have their bullshit, taught in public class,
Stephen J. Gould should put his foot right up their ass.
Noah and his ark, Adam and his Eve,
straight up fairy stories even children don't believe.
I'm not saying there's no god, that's not for me to say,
all I'm saying is the Earth was not made in a day.

Chorus
Fuck, fuck, fuck,
fuck the Creationists.


Break it down.
Ah damn, this is a funky jam!
I'm about ready to kick this bitch back in.
Check it.


Fuck the damn creationists I say it with authority,
because kicking their punk asses be me paramount priority.
Them wack-ass bitches say, "evolution's just a theory",
they best step off, them brainless fools, I'll give them cause to fear me.
The cosmos is expanding every second, every day,
but their minds are shrinking as they close their eyes and pray.
They call their bullshit science like the word could give them cred,
if them bitches be scientists then cap me in the head.

Chorus


Bass!
Bring that shit in!
Ah yeah, that's right, fuck them all motherfuckers.
Fucking punk ass creationists trying to set scientific thought back 400 years.
Fuck that!
If them superstitious motherfuckers want to have that kind of party,
I'm going to put my dick in the mashed potatoes.
Fucking creationists.
Fuck them.
Close

Alpha.dk said...

@Kennyb:
Click the first link. Data straight from NASA.

@Jaime:
I think he uses the 1951->1980 average so that all the graphs are comparable on a 1:1 basis. Also, that is the average provided by NASA in the first link (look at the bottom of the page)

Juris said...

If George Will were as bird brained as you imply, he might learn something by following the recent history of his migrating friends.

Adrian said...

Nate, the case for science is far stronger than you make it out to be. The "global cooling" hypothesis is actually a case of science being right yet again. The theory was based on the data that sulphur pollutants in the air were reflecting back sunlight and would therefore cool the atmosphere.

At the time more was known about how sulphur pollutants worked than carbon pollutants, so it was a valid hypothesis. Two things have happened since then and you only mention one (we have learned more about carbon pollutants). The second you didn't mention - power plants were built with sulphur scrubbers because the high level of sulphur pollutants were causing acid rain. The scrubbers successfully reduced the acid rain (ie, the scientists were right about the causes of acid rain) but they also increased the rate of global warming by specifically taking out the cooling pollutants.

Theoretically, we could actually stop global warming by emitting huge amounts of sulphur pollutants again, but the health effects (not to mention the acid rain) would be devastating, so it is far more sensible to reduce both cooling and heating pollutants.

Theory Capital said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Theory Capital said...
This post has been removed by the author.
seasleepy said...

There was a Nova special a few years ago that indicated it's possible that the cooling due to particles in the atmosphere could actually be happening, which means it'd be masking just how badly we're causing the temperature to go up. Not sure how that research is holding up over the past few years, but it's interesting in any case....

Theory Capital said...

i don't think anyone doubts that the globe is warming. what is plainly in doubt is whether CO2 is driving the warming. your graph is proof AGAINST the claim that warming is based on CO2!

there was equal warming between 1885 to 1930 as there has been since (basically), and no one contends there was a serious CO2 increase during that period!

also, CO2 starts in 1930, and immediately the temperature flattens (CO2's greenhouse effect is logarithmic, meaning the earliest particles added should have had a heavier effect, not an imperceptible one).

it's actually comical for a statistician like Nate to show a basically smooth trend for a period of X years, and to then say that something which started at Year .5(X) is the driver of that model!

yoshi said...

I think you are off base here. George Will isn't taking on science. He is taking on doomsday scenarios and he is quoting the news article's of the day in making his point. And he is right to do so.

Since I was born I'm been told that the planet or I am going to die. First it was the soviet union, next it was population, next it was terrorism, and now climate change. So when I hear Chu saying we are all going to die (or least lose the artichoke which isn't a bad thing) I take it with a grain of salt. Predicting the future is hard and scientists have almost as bad of a track record as economists.

Just be clear I believe climate change is happening. I believe it will impact our race's future. I believe keeping a clean environment is important. I don't believe it will kill us. We will adapt as we always do.

Btw - according to my elementary school science teacher - we should of run out of oil 9 years ago. We didn't.

Juris said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Glenn Doty said...

Nice post Nate.

The problem you inevitably run into when you post a simple piece of evidence to a complex problem is that there are holes in the arguments that can be exploited... and indeed several here are attempting to do so.

So for those who are just being contrarian jerks about it, lets all remember that Nate is using his temperature graphs as an argument to the logical likelihood of the scientific community being scared of "global cooling".

As for the technologies that can help mitigate global warming while profitably helping the economy at large, I couldn't agree more.

You might not have run into this page yet, but there's a very small start-up with a big idea out there which might just change the entire debate at large:

www.WindFuels.com

Eventually, these dumb "skeptics" that close their eyes to literally hundreds of millions of pages of data that amount to an uncontestable argument... need to realize they are doing their level best to HARM the economy for the benefit of a few small interests, and a few nations that control most of the world's crude oil.

Scott Yates said...

The old Newsweek cover link is busted. I want to see it!

Juris said...

Modeling this properly over time does take a very long time series because there are a lot of cycles, and especially before 1900 or so a lot of noise in the data. If I understand correctly, for some purposes the scientists are trying to gather data well back into the 19th Century precisely because they want to capture the period prior to massive industrialization and industrial pollution.

I don't think Nate is implying that a straight line best reflects what's going on. He didn't need any line at all. In reality what's needed is some way to extract the signal from the noise that doesn't assume linearity.

rockfalls3 said...

I read the piece in the Washington Post and was struck by how nearly every one of the sources he cited were headlines from thirty years ago, from popular news publications that are not vetted by scientific organizations. Why doesn't he afford science and scientific research the same sort of respect (through use of respectable sources) that he gives to political or economic thinking? Where in this article is the scientific equivalent of the Fed, OMB, the CBO or some other economic soothsayer? And then I was outraged by seeing the sources' dates, mostly from thirty years ago. It would be equivalent to him citing political theory from 1975 to say that...oh...wait....never mind.

A. Erik Yesayan said...

Anyone know where I can find Nate's talk at TED?

Garick said...

I just wanted to plug Realclimate.org for those who are interested in understanding more about climate change. They help remove spin from bad news stories and make the subject understandable to people with perhaps some science who are not climate scientists.

STepper said...

Will is a bloviating fool who understands that controversy sells and makes him relevant. Like other wingnuts (though he writes better than most of them), e.g. Bill Kristol, he's usually wrong, but he's such an insufferable partisan and arrogant prick that people are afraid of him.

Will misunderstood what he read. We were worried about a nuclear winter in the 1950s through 1970s.

Jeffrey Cufaude said...

@ A. Erik Yesayan:

TED Talks are unrolled on an almost weekly basis, but you won't know when Nate's will appear (unless Nate's does).

You can subscribe to an RSS feed for the talks at ted.com.

STepper said...

Will is a bloviating fool who understands that controversy sells and makes him relevant. Like other wingnuts (though he writes better than most of them), e.g. Bill Kristol, he's usually wrong, but he's such an insufferable partisan and arrogant prick that people are afraid of him.

Will misunderstood what he read. We were worried about a nuclear winter in the 1950s through 1970s.

CBGB said...

"Modeling this properly over time does take a very long time series because there are a lot of cycles. If I understand correctly, for some purposes the scientists are trying to gather data well back into the 19th Century precisely because they want to capture the period prior to massive industrialization and industrial pollution."

bingo!

the problem (and Nate, I am surprised this is under-reported by you of all people) is significant differences in methodology. Over the course of your graph, you go from data collected with mercury thermometers prior to the existence of things like NOAA, to digital gauges, to satellites. You can see three very distincty (no thats not a word) trends in the data to support that. If we talk about going back further you are relying on increasingly inaccurate human measurements, and beyond that relying on ice cores. You have written a total of 60 posts tagged methodology on here. You have written about the cellphone effect and the like. The cellphone effect is very similar here. Thing about developed economies with the technology and where with all to preform the level of data sampling required to truly, accurately, work the climate models now versus in 1920.

Also, a trend is very easy to arbitrarily see here, but we have come to know you as the statistics guy. Where is the math to support your statement. you say "Few credible scientists would be bold enough to question that trend, and in fact" well ok....you put a line on a graph and made a claim. That sounds a lot less Nate and a lot more Rush to me.

I am not taking sides (as a child of the LA basin, I am a strong believer in climate change and the green movement), I am just frustrated that my source for all things statistically calming is wavering a little bit. I come here for numbers and interpretation, not commentary.

Tony C. said...

Face it, the Republican's don't give a shit about science, they deny global warming because admitting it exists will only cost them buckets of money.

The religious right think God made and gave them the planet and will protect them no matter what. The psychopaths that pander to the religous right don't give a crap about anything that happens a century from now because they will be dead by then, and they really cannot muster a crap for anybody but themselves, or they just figure somebody else can always buy their way out of any problem.

If you wait until it is a clear and present mortal threat, and then the rest of the world will have to foot the bill or die, and in the meantime you can continue the pollution party and live like kings.

All their arguments are just their front for doing nothing, this has not been an argument about "science" for decades. It is an argument about who will pay, and we are arguing with people that won't do anything without a personal profit motive.

The easiest way to tackle global warming? Pay them off. Personally. Seriously, just find a way to pay off the fucking vampires; then they will pretend to have seen the light of science, that they suddenly have moral courage and a clear message from God, and their sheep will follow.

Jason said...

If one were to choose a different time period to index by, would we not see a different trend? Just curious.

Mark said...

"That so little progress has been made on climate change and sustainable energy in spite of the overwhelming economic, environmental and national security imperatives to do so is perhaps the single greatest indictment of our democracy."

I completely agree.

It's time to slash our exorbitant military spending and start funding think tanks and laboratories developing green technology. Desalinization, anaerobic digestion, solar shingles, algae biofuel, vertical farming, aeroponics, and most importantly electric vehicles could become valuable technologies.

But we need to end the reign of King Corn first.

Anr said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Dimming

i for one welcome our new dark, hot "hell".

Tony C. said...

@juris:

Actually, we can use air bubbles trapped in arctic ice over 20,000 years old, fossilized and living tree rings (some over 1000 years old), and a few other methods to compute global temperatures far into the past. We don't need human measurements; global temperatures have known effects on growth, including concentrations of CO2 and other gases in the air.

The time series is as long as you want, and the data still says the same thing; this warming is human caused, not a natural cycle.

larrycowan said...

Ever since George Will bolted into the punditry by discussing Univ of Cal v. Bakke, he has become the MSM darling. His pendantic tone in written and oral presentation reveals his true passion, restoring the monarchy. Will hates populism and democracy. Only those elites should rule. What a pompus blowhard. He should only write about baseball.

Juris said...

It's true that the VRWC (as Hillary used to call it) has been busy for a very long time debunking science, not only in the area of evolution and biology but more broadly in opposing "inconvenient facts" about climate (and more narrowly, weather forecasting), about pollution generally, even about science education.

Of all the things I am counting on the Obama administration to do, it's to find a way to refocus our national science and technology efforts, not just through funding and stopping the suppression of scientific advice throughout the government but by defining relevant goals in science education, making science more sexy, and drawing more kids into scientific and technological exploration.

Michael said...

No, Jason, a different baseline would not affect the trend at all.

It would affect the x-intercept of the fit-line, but the SLOPE, which is what the trend is, would remain unchanged.

If we averaged at a different date, we'd find that THAT date is when the trendline hit average. But that doesn't mean anything.

Juris said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Juris said...

Thanks, Tony C. I am aware there are some very long-term indicators of temperature change, but given in part the arguments about the roles of different types of pollutants including sulphur oxides, CO2, dust, and so forth, and the effort to get some gauge of how the effects of these may or may not balance out, not all of this can be gatherered from arctic ice.

I've seen some of the types of analysis that are being done from more recent data (i.e., from early 19th C forward), and it's statistically very complex and the data are very noisy. But the basic conclusion, as far as the underlying trends are concerned, is convincing.

Markus said...

i don't think anyone doubts that the globe is warming. what is plainly in doubt is whether CO2 is driving the warming. your graph is proof AGAINST the claim that warming is based on CO2!

_Today_ nobody (seriously) does. 10 years ago this was very different.

Juris said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Neal said...

Someone recommended the www.realclimate.org site for authoritative information about global warming. It is; however, it is rather sophisticated, so if you aren't prepared, you may get a little lost. A site that looks at all the "skeptical" arguments, one by one, and individually explains their errors, is http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php; it is a bit easier to understand.

Juris said...

The political argumentation has to do not just more generally with the trends in global warming, and not just more generally with the causes, but specifically with whether (and which) human/policy interventions can affect the trends.

Some of the debunkers of global warming admit to the trends but argue that there are long cycles that humans have not caused and cannot prevent. And therefore, they argue, we are wasting our money trying to control global warming.

Neal said...

To put 2 and 2 together: The cooling that has been pointed to in the '40s, despite the increase in CO2, is in fact due to the sulfate aerosols from unscrubbed coal burning. So there is no contradiction between CO2 as the main long-term cause and the temporary cooling during that period: temperature changes have multiple factors. Unfortunately, the ones that seem to be driving the planet in the near-term happen to be human-caused. And now that the coal-burning is indeed scrubbed, the additional CO2 has the uncontested effect of warming.

Jack-be-nimble said...

There is a problem with global warming, IT STOPPED IN 1998:

"drawn from the official temperature records of the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, that for the years 1998-2005 global average temperature did not increase (there was actually a slight decrease, though not at a rate that differs significantly from zero).

Why do you think that proponents are talking about "Climate change" now instead of global warming.

loomisnews said...

Well, I guess this is another win for the Republicans -- global warming, floods, deny, obstruct, and ignore -- but then [link:loomisnews.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/obama-switches-bush-position-on-science/| Obama changes the White House position on science]-- by actually acknowledging science & facts exists.

Michael (mbw) said...

The argument is substantially stronger than one might guess from looking at the trends. For starters, the basic mechanism is understood very well, so the real uncertainties only come in in estimating how big the positive feedback amplification (mainly from warming increasing water evaporation) is. No model which leaves out anthropogenic CO2 comes close to fitting the record.
@ Theory Capital. Almost everything you write is factually incorrect. Anthropogenic CO2 goes way back. The wobbles on the curve are there because CO2 effects add to other changes, not replace them. Ordinary solar variations remain and are included in all the real models. Get your head in the game.

@ seasleeping. There certainly is albedo-driven cooling. It's hard to quantify exactly how much. That uncertainty is actually the biggest source of uncertainties in using models to figure out how big the positive feedback is for the greenhouse effect.

For anybody who wants a mildly technical summary, try Scientific American, Aug. 2007 "The Physical Science behind Climate Change". It has detailed discussions of the points above, and many others.

lejo said...

Thanks Nate... this is an excellent post.

The other mind boggling part of conservative's war on science is that they assume that science is static: that the methods, models, and data never improve. They imply with their arguments that we scientists are blindly applying theories to data that has always been and will always be collected with the same accuracy and precision in the same locations with the same instruments. This couldn't be further from the truth.

The truth is that the scientific techniques and methods have been getting progressively better (as they should be), and that the newest data and models only confirm what has been suspected for a long time: that the Earth's climate is warming due to anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases.

Juris said...

Oh Jack, back in your cave. We are interested in far more than global warming. "Climate change" is just a broader way to describe a range of concerns about climate, including water shortages and desertification, pollution, global warming, etc.

Eric said...

Hate to play devil's advocate (and to be a statistics wonk), but how can we distinguish between an upward trend in the time series from nonstationarity? Many environmental time series are known to exhibit long memory and I don't believe it's possible to conclude an upward trend only by looking to the past 50 years.

Tom Gray said...

Just to quickly note that James Hansen was NOT one of the scientists concerned about global cooling. When asked about it at the time, he said, "I'm more worried about global warming." (I was following the discussion at the time, and recall his comment.)

chezjake said...

But there was certainly nothing of a scientific consensus, as Will sneakily implies, around global cooling. How could there have been given such underwhelming evidence in the temperature record to support the hypothesis? On the contrary, this was something of an eccentric position to hold, and most scientific papers produced at that time predicted that warming would win out instead.

James Hrynyshyn at ScienceBlogs' Island of Doubt points out that either Will never actually read his main scientific source for that claim or is deliberately misstating its conclusions.
http://scienceblogs.com/islandofdoubt/2009/02/the_importance_of_actually_rea.php

The paper in Science that he cited was actually saying that (as of that time in the 1970s) "the long-term trend over the next several thousand years is toward extensive North American glaciation."

Markus said...

There is a problem with global warming, IT STOPPED IN 1998:


No it didn't.

"This myth is interesting because it is using a temperature peak that occurred in 1998 to show that we are cooling since then.

That peak was riding on top of the warming trend caused by global warming and occurred during an El Nino event, which is a warming related event.

The global mean temperature when tracked over time establishes the trend line. The difference between climate and weather is simple. Weather is short term and climate is long term.

Essentially the trend is up; and then we got an El Nino riding on top of the mean increase. That caused an unusually high temperature spike because the El Nino was riding on top of the Global Warming wave, so to speak.

Even though the temperature was high in 1998, that does not mean it was the highest temperature in the multi-year trend.

The highest temperature in the trend, as per the above graph, is indicted by the peak in 2005.

The recent lull in warming is a part of natural variability most reasonably attributed to the fact that we are at the bottom of the Schwabe cycle and have been in La Nina which contributes to cooling rather than El Nino Warming."

http://www.ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/myths/global-warming-stopped

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Heh. Going after George Will eh?

Careful, or he'll go all thesaurus on your ass and call you a voluminous elephantine sheepheaded neonate and whip you with his bow tie

Michael (mbw) said...

Eric- This is not an abstract time-series analysis problem. This is a science problem with some time-series data available. We have a very good idea of the inputs and the mechanisms. The data is used for refining the calibrations and for sanity checks. If it were just a matter of picking some linear trend coefficient and extrapolating, it wouldn't make sense to take any of this seriously.

Chris1974 said...

Several years ago, conservatives were arguing there wasn't global warming. Then they capitulated and admitted there was(even Bush did) but argued that it was a part of a natural cycle. Now that we've had a fairly cold winter, they are back to arguing it doesn't exist. There's a local right wing radio windbag here where I live in Nashville named Phil Valentine, and I swear, whenever it's really cold you can almost bet he will be talking about the "global warming fraud." Of course, he doesn't mention it in the summer where we've had above average temperatures for several years.

But what I've come to realize is that guys like Valentine and Limbaugh, and I guess even George Will, don't have any clue about any of it but just have to be so called "skeptics" because they always have to be against "The liberals." Trying to be a part of the solution is akin to getting in bed with the enemy to them.

Roy said...

global warming is for sissy liberals.
peak oil is for plutocratic capitalists.

can't we all get along and build windmills+nukes? wait, not in my back yard. LuLz.

Michael (mbw) said...

BTW, re what people ere thinking about this back in the day. I did an (amateurish) senior thesis on this in 1970. People were getting worried because of the realization that the feedback was positive, amplifying changes. Both warming and cooling were considered serious possibilities, with the recognition that much more data, as well as improved modeling, were needed. We now have the data and the improved modeling.

Jack-be-nimble said...

Nate, your a true believer....

For anyone else interested in a serious discussion, you need to look at global temperatures back to at least year zero. If you do so, you will see what natural temperature variation looks like. What we really want to avoid is a mini ice age that occured at about the year 1600.

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2008/02/11/a-2000-year-global-temperature-record/

Juris said...

Cherry picking data/trends from certain years is analogous to the problem Nate addressed in looking at political polls prior to the 2008 election. There is always some underlying randomness or stochastic process generating specific figures in a given year, or corner of the planet, or particular type of indicator. This is one reason why it's important to have multiple indicators, a long time perspective, and a tolerance for and way to handle "noise" in the data. Finding one aberrant year or indicator doesn't prove anything at all.

Juris said...
This post has been removed by the author.
SealPiano said...

You totally pwned George Will! That was truly epic!

Chris1974 said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Chris1974 said...

OK, now I got it, Jack-be-nimble. I have clung stubbornly to a theory that conservatives denied global warming for purely political reasons. Now I see the real agenda. That we need to keep spewing crap into the atmosphere to save us from a mini ice age. I guess apologies are in order.

Gavstern said...

We can't wait for the smoking gun, that could come in the form of Waterworld.

TSG said...

I was a geology student in the 1970s, and there was discussion about potential cooling, but no proof. This was because of 'Global Dimming, caused by the aerosols previously mentioned, and well covered in that previously mentioned NOVA program. But Global Warming has overwhelmed the Global Dimming effect, and as we reduce our particulate pollution, the Global Dimming effect is going away. A good review of Global Dimming is on Wikipedia.

So it's not that Mr. Will is wrong about the 70's discussions on cooling, he just isn't keeping up with new advancements and ideas. Big surprise there! not.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Now, I hear this great call to arms from all of you, and on the previous thread you all said that anyone who favored radical change was an idiot, and that glacially (pun intended) slow to act committee meetings were the best way to go.

Isn't it so funny that you 'rationalists' (NATE) are favoring such radical change so quickly?

I guess when the issue is important to you, you can be radical and still claim that you are a rationalist. If the issue is not important to you, then anyone who thinks we should act now is a dangerous fluffy headed radical.

Maybe the liberal faction of the Democratic Party is not so cut and dry downt he middle, with half of them being full time, radicals and the other half full time rationalists. Perhaps the relationship between us and the issues is what is radical or rationalist. Our attitude toward a given thing, you see.

Will said...

Graphs shown here, though, are a useful tool for wildly overplaying the scale of temperature shift. No one is going to deny that the shift is there, but a 1 degree rise in temperature over ~130 years is about a .3% change. (Most on the humans-are-causing-it bench like to keep the scale in Centigrade, while it should always be Kelvin). Sure, it's statistically significant, but take this in comparison: Over a similar timespan (roughly 200 years), the Earth's natural magnetic poles have decreased in strength 5%. That is a much, much stronger change, easily able to cause the temperature rise and the holes in the ozone layer.

The statistics of liberals are just as slanted as the statistics of conservatives. Liberals don't want it to be natural, because it doesn't promote their agenda. Conservatives don't want it to be natural because they don't want to admit it exists at all.

Bozo said...

As I remember the big fear of global cooling (more like global freezing) in the 1970's was from nuclear winter, not from slower forms of climate change.

And as it turns out, there is a cooling trend in the atmosphere from the aerosols (see Solar Dimming and evaporation rate changes), but that effect is far out-weighed by the greenhouse gases.

markymark said...

SnW
quick point here, incrementalism on gay rights does not threaten the future of the planet, incrementalism on climate change does. Its what nurses would call triaging.

But on the whole climate change thing, I find it sad that conservatives can't take the attitude that there is value in taking action now, and deciding in 20 years time that it wasn't worth it, rather than doing nothing now and realising that was a mistake in 20 years time. From that point of view, semantic arguments about the existence and the causes of climate change are irrelevant. Best to act now and sort out the exact causes another day.

Michael (mbw) said...

@Will- Nice point, I bet those guys in the National Academy haven't heard of the Kelvin scale. While we're at it lets plot it on a log scale with the limits being the CMB temperature and the Planck scale. Wow, the effect is really, really small! Now lets just persuade the birds and the ice to look at it on the same scale, so that they'll, you know, quit moving and melting, respectively.
Great point about the approaching magnetic reversal too. Really relevant, and a big secret from us scientists.

Derek said...

I think Nate's done an excellent job of using data to refute maybe the last conservative intellectual left standing (since all the others are dead, or have been replaced by the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity). But you need to be careful using temperatures from the 1880s. For one thing, all the coal and wood used for fuel in those years created a lot of particles in the atmosphere that realy did cause that cooling effect that Will cites as a concern about aerosols in the 1970s. And then came the eruption of Krakatoa in 1883, which cooled temperatures globally for several years.

During the recent anomalous snowstorm in England, someone pointed out to me that Dickens wrote about people ice skating on the Thames -- and the Thames hasn't been frozen over in maybe a century?

All I'm saying is: the Victorian era may have been inordinately cool, but also the first point where we had semi-accurate temperature measurements. So including them in a long-range look at global temperatures can be tricky.

Jason said...

Nate,

If you like a healthy dose of statistics combined with refuting a lot of the climate junk you see on blogs, try:

http://tamino.wordpress.com

Statler N Waldorf said...

MM,

Well, earlier you posted your opposition to Equal Marriage based on the idea that GLBT people were not Equal to straights and therefore a different term should be used to connote the difference in the legitimacy of their unions.

Knowing this in advance, I don't expect you to come out swinging for GLBT rights, any more than I would hope to elicit support for the NAACP at a Klan rally.

So my response is not tailored to try to win you over, but moreso to address the point you brought up, mostly as an academic exercise.

Now, my premises are that 1) The Laws of the United States should be applied equally to all citizens at all times. Simply put, I can no more require Black people to pay a poll tax while exempting whites from doing so than I can allow heterosexuals to marry while denying that right to GLBTs.

2) We cannot control the manner in which other countries behave-but we can control the manner in which our own government behaves. Take for instance Israel- a country we support financially, and occasionally whose governments fly off the rails and do things that embarrass us on the world stage. Oh sure, we can threaten that we're going to cut them off, but that doesn't inherently compel them to do anything. If they decided to say, "Fuck you, we'll go it alone then", they could. Whether or not they last very long without our support is debatable, but they can make that choice-we cannot force their hand, no matter how we may desire to do so. At the same time, we have used the excuse of civil rights abuses in other countries to engage in military conflicts (Haiti), forbid our citizens to travel there and boost their tourism industry (Cuba), impose trade sanctions (South Africa), and establish multinational entities that surround and 'contain' them militarily (NATO). We do so with the basic argument that human rights abuses are an abomination,a nd we must act to halt them. Although there may be other issues of even greater importance, we nonetheless react with a visceral refusal to accept human rights abuses based in our sense of humanity and compassion.

Do you think that we should not release the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay until after the Global Warming crisis is over? Global Warming will continue for at least a century even if we end all carbon emissions full-stop. The CO2 already int he atmosphere has to go somewhere for it's effects to cease. That will take time for it to become absorbed by the trees and the oceans. The Gitmo detainees will die of old age before then. And yet, they are fewer in number than GLBT Americans.

Why then would you be willing to sue Global Warming as an excuse to avoid GLBT Equality?

Again, your previous post makes it clear that you do not accept the idea that I am your equal, or should be in the eyes of the law. I do not expect to win you over as a convert. I merely post these answers for the benefit of others who may see my Equality as something they accept.

Michael (mbw) said...

Sorry, but reading these posts, left and right, is bringing out my technocratic elitist side. Comment after comment (what degrees are you using, have you heard of water, where's the baseline, did they have CO2 in 1930...?) is way, way, way behind the game.
If we were conducting an operation, would you be pointing to arteries and asking, 'Hey is that tube thingy maybe connected to something? Think of that? Huh?'

markymark said...

Will, the use of the Kelvin scale would not alter any of the graphs Nate has produced, as essentially the kelvin and celsius scales are interchangeable. (My understanding is the only difference between the two, in any meaningful measure is where zero is on the scale (more scientifically literate posters may correct me on that point). But essentially the point is that the anomaly would be the same in Kelvins or Celsius.

But the point is not so much the graphs as the effects of the information shown on the graphs, and this is where getting bogged down in a scientific argument over scales on graphs and the like misses the point. Look at species migration, or ice cap melting, or any number of other pointers you could use as evidence of climate change, instead of arguing over semantics in graphs.

-SA said...

Hannity says that there is great disagreement in the scientific community, and says there are over 600 scientists that say climate change is a hoax.

600, out of hundreds of thousands.

markymark said...

SnW,

I was gonna right more, but essentially, all I am saying is that the whole world suffers if the climate change crisis is not fixed. Gay marriage is not on that level.

mighty moore-fan powerranger said...

I can prove global warming is a hoax. Last week it was in the 60s, now it's in the 30s. If the earth was warming it would be warmer today than it was last week. In fact, by the same reasoning I have proven that seasonal warming has ended. We won't have spring or summer, it'll just get colder. Take that, all you libs.

Juris said...

@mighty moore: I dunno. In my front yard the snow has nearly melted completely in the last 5 days, but in the last two days it's stayed pretty much as it was. So I can only conclude that over the long run, there's global warming, but in the short run there's global cooling or a stationary temperature.

What better proof could I want? It's right here in my own front yard! All that money wasted on "scientists"!

Statler N Waldorf said...

MM

The entire world does not suffer from the War in Iraq, either. Or from Guantanamo Bay. Should we stay in Iraq and leave Guantanamo operating indefinitely, or at least until Global Warming is over?

Cancer affects only 1% of the US population. Should we halt all cancer research until Global Warming is over?

Primary education only applies to children. Should we abolish primary education until Global Warming is over?

The infrastructure problem in America only affects people who drive int he US. It doesn't affect people outside the US or people that walk everywhere. Should we halt all road maintainance in the US?

Michael (mbw) said...

@markymark- Of course you're right that K and °C are just shifted by a constant. In any fundamental calculation, we use absolute (e.g. K) units for convenience. Here it makes no difference whatsoever, nature doesn't care what names we call it. Will was just trying to bullshit everybody. Sorry if my sarcasm wasn't transparent.

AxmxZ said...

Oy vavoy, Nate - "anomoly"?

markymark said...

I am troubled with how this 'hoax' term is used by some climate change deniers. A hoax in this context, is a conspiracy to misinform on a massive scale. Hundreds of thousands of scientists having secret communication and secret meetings in order to agree which evidence to push forward as evidence of climate change. Odd that only a few have been left out?

I would give the deniers more credibility if they just insisted that the science is debatable, which after all all science is. However in this case there is a mountain of evidence that continues to pile up that the earth is warming, and that human activity is at least partly to blame, against a fringe of a few scientists, often funded or linked to oil or other fossil fuel industries, who wish to suggest that its all a fallacy. Anyone wish to suggest that smoking is not bad for you? It wasn't that long ago that the cigarette companies would have all denied that.

markymark said...

mbw, I was referring to Will's post I think, where he suggested that using kelvin would lead to a wildly different graph id Kelvin were used. But thatnks for confirming what I thought!

5150 said...

I love all of the references on the Wiki page on Climate Change! There is a sentense about 2/3rds of the way into the articlet hat reads,
"...no remaining scientific body of national or international standing is known to reject the basic findings of human influence on recent climate changes." Scientific Consensus is a powerful thing!

Michael (mbw) said...

@markymark- It's true that if you look at that last bit of warming (say 0.74 °C, but who's counting?) there are several trends mixed on top of each other. The point is that only one of those trends, anthropogenic greenhouse warming, extrapolates to a big effect (roughly 5°C) over the next few decades. So as far as the serious alarms about the future go, they are essentially 100% about the man-made effects. The commentators who say 'at least partly' sound fair and balanced, but they have no idea what the science says.

BTW, Will, you can replace every "°C" above with "K" without changing the meaning. Surely that will preserve a few pine forests.

fred said...

Nate-ster-

I am a very long time poster. I went to school in the 1970's. Global cooling was in the FREKIN' TEXTBOOKS my friend. It was not a few wacky scientists as you purport. That says little about global cooling, but it sure does matter when you are attacking someone else for not fact chacking!!!!!

fred said...

The real question with greenhouse warming is not if it is real - the real question is there anything we can do to stop it? I kinda doubt it.

Markus said...

I am a very long time poster. I went to school in the 1970's. Global cooling was in the FREKIN' TEXTBOOKS my friend. It was not a few wacky scientists as you purport. That says little about global cooling, but it sure does matter when you are attacking someone else for not fact chacking!!!!!

Please post a copy or a scan of said textbook. Thank you.

markymark said...

SnW,
I have been trying to avoid getting into a bitch slapping argument over the priorities you have suggested above. Simply put your argument is that just because Nate is suggesting a radical approach to global warming he should also adopt a radical approach on GLBT rights, (I don't actually know Nate's views on GLBT rights, and would not suggest what they were, but whatever.)

I happen to disagree with that view, a radical approach in some policy areas is important, climate change being one such area, because of the scale of the issue, which is vast. LGBT rights, especially when it comes to the relatively superficial issue of marriage (and if its not a superficial issue, please explain what difference being able to marry will make directly to your life?)

Now their can be different reasons that an issue is immediate or less immediate. Guantanamo is important, because of the way it makes people look at the USA. I live in the UK, and I don't know of anyone who thinks any less of America because it does not let GLBT types marry. I do know of many people who are incensed that the US continues to imprison people with not recourse to any legal preceedings.

Cancer can directly affect anyone in the country. It does indirectly affect much more than 1% of the population as many people are related to or friends with someone who has died or suffered with cancer.

Primary education enables many more people to take reasoned and sensible positions on a range of issues.

And the infrastructure of the US affects all those people who travel in the US.

Look I am not at all homophobic. I respect your right to live a different sexual preference than I do. My problem with GLBT marriage rigts is simply that it seems to me a relatively small point. Even if we say that GLBT types cannot go into 'Civil Unions' no one can prevent you from living in a committed relationship with whoever you chose. My issue is that I don't see what difference, in real, rather than abstract terms, its going to make to be able to enter some sort of legal partnership with that person? So why adopt a radical approach that could derail things that I see as a bigger priority for the US, such as healthcare reform? That is exactly what happened to the Clinton administration- a radical position taken on a GLBT issue (on that occasion it was Gay in the Military) that derailed a domestic policy agenda that would have benefitted all Americans, and reinvigorated the right.

fred said...

Oh come on Markus! Are you questioning my youth? Those were pre-internet days for you youngsters. And no, I did not keep my 6th grade science book - did you?

markymark said...

SnW, just to correct a point I made above, I do see the difference that a civil partnership agreement would make in your life, I don't see what calling that a 'marriage' does?

My apologises for that mistake.

ColinLaney said...

George Will is notorious for conflicts of interest. He took $200K from Conrad Black while defending Black against criminal charges, and he gets fat speaker's fees for lecturing industry groups from those industries whose interests he promotes in his columns.

The Washington Post ombudsman needs to investigate whether Will has conflicts of interests with the energy industry. Contact ombudsman@washpost.com .

Be polite.

Cugel said...

Nate: You didn't explain WHY the right wing is so full of shit about global warming!

It's really simple:

1. Admitting there's a problem and that the problem is man made means we have to do something about it.

2. Tax cuts for billionaires and fiscal cuts are useless to solve the problem. The "free market" can't solve it. It requires *gasp* government regulation.

3. All proposed government solutions involve a mix of

a. government research and development of green fuels.

b. government assistance of solar and other alternative energy sources.

c. Government regulation and imposed sanctions against polluters (cap and trade emissions, etc.) all aimed at changing the economy over from dependence on fossil fuels to new cleaner alternative energy.

4. Even worse the problem requires major and ongoing INTERNATIONAL cooperation. It totally undercuts the natural conservative disdain for other countries and will require UN involvement.

5. Military force will not help and increasing the military budget won't help at all.

There is simply NOTHING from the usual bag of right-wing "solutions" that will fit the problem. All the proposed solutions are "liberal" and feed the minds of right-wing neanderthals with suspicion.

Increased role for international regulation? Relying on the UN? Perhaps setting up an extensive international bureaucracy to monitor carbon emissions, and empower this agency to sanction violators? You've got to be kidding!

That undercuts NATIONALISM.

Then there's the whole right-wing hostility to science because it undercuts "religious values." This global warming thing will require turning to scientists, listening to experts, and turning away from Jesus for solutions.

None of this is good for the right. None of their favorite nostrums will work. In their minds you couldn't think of a better liberal plot than a massive crisis that will last for decades if not centuries, will require massive and ongoing government investment and intervention, and foster and promote international cooperation, which will increase international government regulation control and increased taxation of business, and where there is NO military solution.

There's simply nothing in Global Warming that appeals to them. They don't believe it because they don't want to believe it.

It's all just a plot of scientists and their liberal allies to promote godlessness and liberal one-world-government elitism! Let's stamp out all this Global Warming nonsense!

"Nah-nah-nah-nah-nah! I've got my fingers in my ears and I can't HEAR you!"

ssmith said...

To George Will:

NEWS FLASH. 1975 was over THIRTY years ago. I'm no scientist, but it doesn't take one to figure out that a shitload of CO2 has been emitted since then and maybe you should look at more recent data on warming before opining that it's all a hoax? Oh wait, recent data proves it's NOT a hoax.

What an asshole.

fred said...

Markus-

U of Michigan, 1977: http://books.google.com/books?id=eThRAAAAMAAJ&q=coming+ice+age+date:1972-1980&dq=coming+ice+age+date:1972-1980&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&ei=9sOZSem_BYPAlQTF_6XmCQ&safe=on&pgis=1

I would love to get this one, is Teller predicting a coming Ice Age in 1980? http://books.google.com/books?id=s-y2AAAAIAAJ&q=coming+ice+age+date:1972-1980&dq=coming+ice+age+date:1972-1980&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&ei=MsSZSYenIpLElQTZxKTmCQ&safe=on&pgis=1

1977- THE ICE IS COMING!!!! http://books.google.com/books?id=u-sOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA318&dq=coming+ice+age+date:1972-1980&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&ei=MsSZSYenIpLElQTZxKTmCQ#PPA319,M1



I have meeting Markus, but maybe I will find 100 more like it tonight. It was all the rage, even in popular fiction. IDIOT!

Peephole said...

Baseball, elections, Oscars, global temperatures.

Is there anything Nate Silver doesn't do?

fred said...

That said, global warming is real and the scientists in the '70's were worng. That does not meanthat didn't say an ice age was coming - they did, I was there.

fred said...

Peephole-

He sucks on legal opinions.

Tony C. said...

@juris:

The way to handle noise and eliminate outliers is actually pretty simple, the relevant paper is "Robust Regression and Outlier Detection", published in 1987 by Peter J. Rousseeuw and Annick M. Leroy.

Their method is similar to linear regression but is called "Least Median Squared Regression," and can discard 50% of the data points as outliers.

In statistics, "robustness" is a measure of how sensitive ANOTHER method, such as linear regression, is to outliers. Actual Least Squares Linear Regression is not robust at all, it can be skewed violently by even one outlier. Rousseeuw's method, by comparison, can tolerate 50% noise (the maximum possible) and gives the same answer no matter how wrong those outliers are.

The methods for noise insensitivity are well known; 22 years old in fact, and don't change the conclusions or trend lines much at all.

Michael (mbw) said...

@fred "... the real question is there anything we can do to stop it? I kinda doubt it." What part do you doubt? That it's our CO2 that's doing it? In that case, you'd be wrong, and I don't think that's what you mean. That we can reduce the amount of CO2 emitted? There are a whole lot of things, from conservation to new power sources (nuclear, solar, wind, sequestered carbon coal...) which can reduce the magnitude of the effect.

Statler N Waldorf said...

MM,

Cancer can directly affect anyone in the country. It does indirectly affect much more than 1% of the population as many people are related to or friends with someone who has died or suffered with cancer.

And you don't think the families of GLBT people are affected byt heir lack of Equal rights? You don't think that children that cannot be adopted into loving gay homes doesn't affect anyone but GLBTs?

Primary education enables many more people to take reasoned and sensible positions on a range of issues.
Yes, and a good family is more likely to equip them with the supportive environment they need to thrive than rotting away in an orphanage will.

Guantanamo is important, because of the way it makes people look at the USA. I live in the UK, and I don't know of anyone who thinks any less of America because it does not let GLBT types marry. I do know of many people who are incensed that the US continues to imprison people with not recourse to any legal preceedings.

The Canadians, South Africans and Europeans do consider the inequality of GLBTs in America to be a mark of hypocrisy.

Now, I don't see how you can come up with a million and one excuses to not recognize the Equality of GLBTs, why you think it's so important to use a different word to describe our marriages than yours, and yet say that you are not homophobic. That's like saying, "I'm not racist. I just don't want Black people to attend the same venues I do. Separate but Equal."

Separate is inherently unequal.

jmc said...

During the 1970's, the buzzwords, when it came to the environment, were "greenhouse gases" and "holes in the ozone layer". Both were related to global warming. I do not ever remember reading anything about global cooling. Why is George Will writing about this now?

Ron said...

I have never thought that George Will understood technical issues. He uses his debate tactics to try to discredit technical ideas he doesn't understand or disagrees with. His shallow comments have really turned me off to any panel discussions that include him. I can take someone who understands issues and disagrees with me but not someone who wallows in his ignorance and displays it with pride.

Global warming is settled science. I see no reason to debate its veracity in the popular literature if an analysis is not based on fact and our best science. Simply being able to express an opinion does not give anyone a credible platform to contradict objective observations and the scrutiny of top professionals. Contradictions should be based on objective observations and informed analysis and should be reported to the scientific community for review before they are reported to the general public.

I have seen crusaders of all political stripes try to reinterpret science to suit their parochial needs. As far as I'm concerned, that destroys their credibility to me. I'm quite happy to listen to those who disagree with me if they are well informed and can formulate convincing arguments. Substituting debate skills for objective reasoning, such as I believe George Will does, only serves to distract us from honest discussions of difficult problems.

Juris said...

@ Tony C: Yes I know there are such methods, but it's also true that this requires good instrumentation, good measurement modeling of the error structures in the data, the need to rely on indirect indicators of some phenomena of interest, and ways to deal with missing data. It's not simple and not straightforward robust regression analysis.

markymark said...

SnW,

I haven't mentioned anything about adoption, which I would have no problem with at all. I don't have any problem with gay marriage at all, my point is that its not worth jeopardising President Obama's agenda over, right now, there are bigger issues for most of us out there right now. I understand that its an important issue for you, but drawing comparisons with the plight of African Americans in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s with the plight of the GLBT community right now is crass at best. Having voting rights taken away and suffering from lynchings, and having to cope with real segregstion, compared to the relatively priveliged life most GLBT types put up with in the US.

PeteKent said...

Climate science has become unnecessarily politicized. People who know nothing about it loudly proclaim such nonsense as "That so little progress has been made on climate change and sustainable energy in spite of the overwhelming economic, environmental and national security imperatives to do so is perhaps the single greatest indictment of our democracy."

Where to begin with such ignorance?

First off, if you believe Nate we have made great scientific advances in climate change given that the problem has been identified and its cause conclusively established to the point where there can be no further debate. I’d say for the followers of Al Gore that is great progress indeed. What’s Nate bitchin’ about there?

Then the segue into the prattle about "sustainable energy". What's that code for? Nuclear power? Clean coal? Hardly. Maybe it’s riding around in electric cars with ranges of 25 miles and top speeds to match. Let’s all move back into the urban jungle!

And finally, why is this failure an indictment of democracy? And assuming democracy is the culprit what then the solution? Some sort of state takeover of the political system and our lives all in the name of saving the Earth?

Some would say so. Others fear it. Charles Krauthammer wrote persuasively last year about environmentalism and global warming becoming the new secular religion and this desire to re-order society along so-called Green lines is really just a power grab on behalf of shadowy forces who want to take over our lives.

Who are these people? The same folks who tried until it collapsed under the weight of its political, intellectual and economic bankruptcy were trying to bring about the advancement of world Communism. There is no better political system than Communism for ensuring that the supposed well intentions of the few are imposed in the many.

Former astronaut and Harvard Ph.D geologist Harrison Schmitt was quoted today in the Boston Herald arguing much the way Krauthammer did saying that the "global warming scare is being used as a political tool to increase government control over American lives, incomes and decision making."

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/general/view/2009_02_15_Former_astronaut_speaks_out_on_global_warming/srvc=home&position=recent

Whenever science is perverted in the name of politics and a clown like Al Gore is involved so deeply, alarm bells should go off.

The geological destiny of the earth is to wind up as an icy, frozen world like Mars. Whatever warming phase we are going through is temporary and but a way station on our path to a frigid eternity. More than that, the evidence is far from conclusive that global warming is manmade. That we should re-order our social and economic (let alone our political) systems around a hypothesis that is in fact not proven is utter and complete folly.

And Nate is a wanker for suggesting it!

mcalif777 said...

Yet another example of the Republican's war on science and reason. It always amazes me how many wild ad hoc arguments they'll create in order to try to preserve their narrow world view.

My favorite is still the Creationist contention that, since T-Rex lived at the same time as humans (ha) that it must have been VEGETARIAN. Cuz nothing's better for slicing through leaves than banana-sized incisors.

In their defense though, while the evidence for global warming is very strong, it isn't quite as strong as some other things, like evolution, which has literally been observed occurring in real-time in lab experiments, with lower forms of life evolving into entirely new species.

You don't really see the perversion of science on the left that you do on the right, although, there is that nonsense about vaccines causing autism still floating around some parts of the left; still, the fact that the left accepts testable scientific truth in many more situations than the right does, leads me to feel assured that I've got the right ideology.

Juris said...

If you want a different version of bloviation, check out this webpage from the UN International Panel on Climate Change.

Actually, this puts together a summary of the best evidence, and where there are gaps in knowledge, as well as links to many studies.

PeteKent said...

Statler have you noticed how quick your fellow Obama supporters are to shout you down when you dare suggest that your rights and aspirations, too, must be vindicated by the Obama administration?

As the ironically nicknamed Marky Mark said: "I don't have any problem with gay marriage at all, my point is that its not worth jeopardising President Obama's agenda over, right now, there are bigger issues for most of us out there right now."

Please, step to the back of the bus and wait your turn. You are not important enough yet. Perhaps after the secret ballot in Union elections has been eliminated or we have struck a blow against free speech by re-instituting the Fairness Doctrine we can talk about your parochial, vaguely tutti-frutti concerns.

fred said...

My question is not that carbon dioxide is having the effect, or that global warming is happening, or that developed countries can lower emissions. The question is, can the developed countries lower emmissions fast enough to make up for China and India and Africa and Brazil.

Tony C. said...

@juris:

I disagree. Missing data is immaterial if it is not intentionally excluded; a warming trend measured every even year will look like a warming trend measured every year; or statistically speaking, I should be able to find the trend picking half the years or a tenth of the years at random; presuming my sample has statistical significance. Which is to say, we aren't using Student's T distribution, but 64 samples or so, putting us in the normal distribution.

Secondly, you don't "need to model the error structures in the data", the whole POINT of Rousseeuw's method is to let you IGNORE any error structures in the data; and the scientists that research global warming are fully aware of and try to eliminate all systemic measurement error created by equipment or methodology.

The fact is, it IS a simple matter of robust regression by Rousseeuw's method, which will produce the same alarm as the traditional method, because there is NOT a significant noise factor in the measurements. I doubt any opinion to the contrary is based in actual statistics or actual science.

In fact, in my opinion it is just likely to be yet another form of denial; "Oh this science is so complex and there are so many things to take into account" along with a bunch of what if speculation. Well, the fact is, a lot of science is pretty simple common sense, and it is not a very hard job to accurately take the temperature f the planet.

Thus whatever noise there is, it is inherent to the system, it is not a fault of measurement. When systems are inherently noisy, how do we predict them? With robust regression which is designed to find an underlying pattern in the presence of noise.

So you are wrong, it is too a simple matter of robust regression, which is just a way of saying it is a simple matter of applying the correct tool for the job.

As for cycles, blah blah blah, people have been looking for them for YEARS, and they aren't being verified. Which means not acting because you believe there may be long term cycles, but after years of looking nobody can verify them, or show any evidence of them, is just magical thinking. People talking about cycles might as well be saying the unicorns are trying to teach us a lesson.

Michael (mbw) said...

@fred- The effects from different sources add up, so any major lowering anywhere counts. Furthermore, any technology we develop is likely to be transferable to China and India. The key point is that, even if the effect is big, changes in how big matter. In fact, the same increment probably matters even more then, because there are some possible non-linear instabilities that would be very bad.

Tony C. said...

@fred:

Sure we can; because if we do the R&D to get to sustainable non-polluting energy, chances are it will be cheaper than oil and coal and we can sell it to China and India.

They don't want to rely on imports or pollution any more than we do; if China can produce electricity cheaply by wind or geothermal or solar or biofuels or whatever, or at least within a few cents per kilowatt hour as for coal or oil, they would do it. So would India.

Self-sufficiency beats dependency every time. It prevents economic blackmail, and creates jobs locally instead of shipping money overseas.

As for China's local coal, green beats coal if the costs are about the same. They don't like the scar of stripmining any more than we do, it is done because there is an economic incentive. Remove enough of that incentive and the stripmining stops.

Matthew said...

Fred,

On those books, lets be clear about a few things...

1. Impact team - "The Impact Team, which was made up of reporters, writers, researchers, and "back-up" people, as they called themselves -- but no weather experts among the 18 of them. Hence, they were forced to rely on outside scientific "expertise", so they turned to two CIA reports on global cooling." (Source: http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Climate/Climate_Science/CliSciFrameset.html?http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Climate/Climate_Science/Contrarians.html) note that this book was instantly refuted.

2. Edward Teller (second book) was a nuclear physicist, the "climate scholar" he's quoting is Robert Ardrey, a physical anthropologist, not a climatologist. Neither was qualified to talk on the subject.

3. The third book was discussing a past "small ice age." Hubert Lamb was actually one of the people doing correct research then, and for years after, on climate change.

Again, there might have been discussion among people outside of the climate field, but it wasn't particularly accurate.

- Matt

Patrick said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Brian said...

I've added my blog voice to the chorus of those who are singing, "George Will is a liar."
http://hinessight.blogs.com/hinessight/2009/02/george-will-lies-about-global-warming.html

It's astounding (but maybe not really) that Will wouldn't engage in the 30 seconds of Googling that it took me to confirm the myth of "scientists thought the world was cooling in the 1970s."

Patrick said...

PeteKent

Now how is that constructive? Anyway, i'd rather see Obama spend his political capital on some universal health care. That is something -unlike a husband -that i actually need.

moondancer said...

Gee, between this and the many beatdowns he's taken every time he tries to parrot the gooper economic lies when Krugmans around, we're gonna have to nominate this ass for the David Broder Irrelevancy Award.

Juris said...

@TonyC: take a look at the research cited in the UN report. It's not one-size fits all modeling.

Look, we're not arguing on opposite sides of the substantive debate. I'm just tell you the measurement and forecasting in the latest models is a lot more complicated than you seem to think.

tarnold said...

George Will is no longer (if he ever was) engaged in the honest pursuit of an intellectual inquiry. He is now haphazardly and desperately heaving ballast overboard in hopes of keeping a failed ideology in the air. At this point, he's down to his bowtie.

Kevin said...

As I've said many times before:

Anyone who thinks that human beings don't negatively impact their environment has never been in a public restroom.

I'm sure that applies to Will.

Actve said...

Suggest you to provide link to

www.energyenvironmentforum.com

and encourage your readers to use the Energy Environment Forum and get a link back !
energyenvironmentforum at gmail dot com

Øystein said...

I just thought I'd mention a small, funny fact: George Will's quotes - save one, which is from 1974 - are ALL from 1975. So, since the consesus of thirty-three years ago (and no more or less than that!) was (actually, it wasn't..) that the earth is cooling, we cannot - CANNOT! - believe the world is heating up. This is climate 101, people!

RivierRatt said...

@Stepper & Bozo:

We weren't worried about a "nuclear winter" from the 1950's through the 70's. While it's true that people were worried about nuclear annihilation in the 50's and 60's, the term and concept of the "nuclear winter"--a global cooling phenomenon as a result of a large-scale nuclear attack--originated with a paper published by Crutzen and Birks in 1982.
See Wikipedia on the topic.

By the BTW, it wasn't paranoid to be worried about nuke annihilation in the 50's and 60's; the Cuban Missile Crisis came very close to just that.

wv: faterse: too easy.

eve said...

Thank you so much, Nate, for the excellent information.

I am also disappointed with Will's editorial. I like to think there are some conservative voices that adhere to the facts. Maybe he will read this and correct the record.

But I'm not holding my breath.

Ryan said...

Two things: First, by using the 1880's as a starting point for your analysis, you are using data that is inherently skewed as the volcanic explosion of Krakatoa in 1883 wreaked havoc on worldwide climate for at least 5-10 years. Also your graphs are clearly wrong as they don't show the 1.3 degree celsius drop in global temperatures that occurred from 1883 to 1884.

I'm not trying to challenge your overall analysis on global warming, but please use data that is not skewed just to bolster your argument.

kathy said...

Your graph should say "celsius degrees" on the y axis, not "degrees celsius." Degrees Celsius refers to a specific temperature, whereas you are referring to the change in temperature measured in a unit of degrees on the celsius scale.
.
Haven't read through all the comments, so I don't know if others have pointed this out. My apologies if it's a duplilcate.

Ryan said...

This graph may help shed light on temperature trends:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/osborn-briffa.html

This there is this graph that shows the minuscule contribution any solar forcing may have:

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/gw-forcing.html

To finish up ever wonder why some Global Warming deniers attack Global Warming as a "cult" or "religion", this may help.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=968

Phyllis Schlafly is the mother of Andrew Schlafly, who founded the WikiMedia site "Conservapedia" which is easily the worst use of the WikiMedia software and the articles disgrace and cheapen the magnetic media media that holds them.

Melissa said...

Nate, I so enjoyed your blog throughout the campaign, but I must admit I needed a break from the polls and data. As I read the posts that I have missed since my post-election hiatus, I am reminded of why I love fivethirtyeight. You guys satisfy a basic need for science to support conjecture, for reason to overcome hysteria, and for right-thinking to prevail. And you do it all with a touch of levity. Thank you for your work, please maintain your integrity.

sbdavi said...

I haven't read all the comments and I expect no one will read this. But you cannot possibly believe that over the last 150 years we have released over 1/3 of the planets stored carbon (A known and PROVED greenhouse gas) that the planet would NOT warm up. Really? Seriously? WTF would anyone think would happen. Anyone who denies this is freaking crazy, stupid, exhibits bi-polar disorder, or is a republican; which indicates a whole host of other issues more likely to be the root cause of the condition. Please people if you think I am an idiot, try to scribble out the chemical structure of CO2.




.


I didn't think you could...

Zahlman said...

@Statler: When you're fighting against the kinds of interests that benefit from denying global warning, and the depths of all those pocketbooks, you HAVE TO talk radical change before you can even begin to hope to implement any change at all. It's not that anyone's demanding drastic action; it's that they're fed up of complete inaction.

daphne said...

Would this be the same columnist who wrote, "What's thee matter with Kansas? Not much."? I spent considerable time and energy dismantling that editorial - too much, in retrospect. So I believe you give him too much credit.

Bandit said...

To buy into the global warming hysteria requires you to accept all of the following:
1. The global average temperature is rising. (Seems pretty clear, though a recent BBC report said the last 10 years have been cool.)
2. The cause is CO2 emission (maybe partly correct, but certainly there are other explanations like the sun's cycle).
3. We can actually stop global warming by doing something (whether it's cut CO2 emissions or otherwise, maybe it's too late? Maybe we lack the power to stop the pattern?)
4. Global warming will have, on balance, primarily negative effects on human life. (This is pure assumption. The earth has gone through temperature cycles -- and yet here we are! Warm weather leads to longer growing cycles in certain lands. Fewer deaths due to hypothermia, etc. We can deal with slowly rising seas if we have to, just like Holland has. Warm=bad is universally accepted but cold=bad seems just as obvious to me and rarely do people admit to ANY of the benefits of warmer global temperatures.)
5. The negative effects are so great that they justify the investment of trillions of dollars and/or the diversion and disruption of industry, farming, transportation and commerce that gives us the quality of life we enjoy and that is elevating people like the Chinese from rural poverty. (This can only be speculation, of course.)
6. Even if the effects are, on balance, negative and serious, there are no other more pressing causes, environmental or otherwise, that deserve this money, energy, research attention, and policy making, that has been dedicated to the CO2 issue. (I can think of many others, including real and actual pollution of the air, land and water by dangerous and harmful chemicals, deforestation, overfishing, etc. CO2 is not a pollutant and not a poison. It is a trace element and it doesn't harm humans. Shouldn't we focus on particulate pollution, carcinogens, mercury in the fish streams, etc? )

So you see, there is a hysteria about CO2 and yet by the time you get to question 3 or 4 out of 6, if you are reasonable person you really ought to wonder whether the hysteria is justified by the science and whether it's worth all this time, money and energy. And yet the mainstream press feeds us the story of "carbon footprints" as if it's an undeniable and catastrophic problem. Once question #1 is answered in the affirmative, the remaining answers are simply assumed to be yes. Even THIS BLOG POST falls prey to this instinct, but jumping from a graph about temperature to a call to "do something!" about this "problem." Yet points 2- 4are actually much more important than the observation that temperatures have increase by 0.8 degrees in the past few decades. That's the issue people like me have who are often unfairly labelled as "denyers" -- there is a cultish nature to the activists' positions, and a refusal to take the time and do the science to figure out if what we propose to do is actually something we ought to do.

frflyer said...

Jack-be nimble

You're going to have to be a little more nimble to fool the folks here.

The IPCC was founded and NAMED in 1988.
That's the Intergovernmental Panel on CLIMATE CHANGE - 20 years ago

Get it?

Actually scientists were using the terms global warming and climate change interchangably as early as the late 70s.

Another urban legend bites the dust.


Global Warming has not stopped. That conclusion is only reached by cherry picking the data and manipulating the charts.

Since this is such a popular skeptic argument presently, here are links on supposed cooling of late.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/07/the_australians_war_on_science_16.php

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/index.php?p=632

http://climateprogress.org/2008/08/21/debunking-the-myth-global-warming-stopped-in-1998/

http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/08/yes-the-globe-is-warming-but-how-fast/

Another urban legend bites the dust.


Will

"The statistics of liberals are just as slanted as the statistics of conservatives. Liberals don't want it to be natural, because it doesn't promote their agenda. Conservatives don't want it to be natural because they don't want to admit it exists at all."

Complete BS
People who are concerned about the environment, whether it be global warming or otherwise, are concerned because they are concerned. It has little to do with any agenda. That is a made up notion with very little truth. Deniers on the other hand are almost totally driven by ideology. It is they who have politicized it.

Read this:

"Why Climate Denialists are Blind to Facts and Reason: The Role of Ideology"
by Johnny Rook
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/12/143145/743/173/513430

And read what Cugel says in his comment.



Fred

"It was all the rage, even in popular fiction. IDIOT!"


There were 44 scientific papers in the 70s predicting global warming.

There were 7 scientific papers in the 70s predicting global cooling.

Those are the facts. Now what was that you said about fact checking?

And given the amount of aerosols at the time, cooling did seem like a possibility. Not only scrubbers on power plants but cleaner burning gasoline engines reduced that substantially.
At the same time, we started using much more coal for power, but scrubbed out much of the SO2 and other aerosols, but did nothing about the larger amount of CO2 from coal. The aerosols were masking the effects from CO2.
And CO2 stays in the atmosphere much longer.

And yes the popular media picked up the cooling story and publicised it. Which is why you shouldn't rely on the public media for real information on science, especially on global warming.

PeteKent

"Maybe it’s riding around in electric cars with ranges of 25 miles and top speeds to match."

Really? You mean like the electric car that Shelby Super Cars is coming out with next year?
The one that goes over 200 mph and 0-60 in 2 1/2 seconds, with a 150-200 mile range? Or the electric cars that are blowing away fuel dragsters on the strip?

I agree, it's not an indictment of our democracy, but an indictment of the corporate control of said democracy. But you would call that patriotism.

Your comments about communism being related to the envirnomental movement are completely absurd. No wonder conservatives don't get it. Their minds are stuck in labels.
Mention sharing or cooperating and the first thing that comes to mind is communism or socialism or one world government.
What's so funny is that you think it's the scientists who are alarmists. My God.
Do you belong to the John Birch society or something? That might explain it.

"Whenever science is perverted in the name of politics"

LOOK IN THE MIRROR

Fred

"The question is, can the developed countries lower emmissions fast enough to make up for China and India and Africa and Brazil."

If we take the lead others will follow. For the past 8 years, we have been the leading obstacle in the world. And China is making plans to mitigate emissions, not enough obviously, but a start. They've set a goal for 2020 at least. And wind power grew by 6 GW in China last year.

We still produce 4 times China's emissions on a per capita basis.

frflyer said...

Do you doubt man is causing global warming?

Strongly recommend the book "The Carbon Age" by Eric Roston

That's where I learned the following and much more.

Not only do the coral and the shellfish we are familiar with depend on a certain pH level in seawater, so do coccolithophores, tiny plankton that are armored with calcium carbonate shells, just like the more familiar shellfish and coral. Except these little guys are critical to a balance in the carbon cycle, that has supported life as we know it for millions of years. And besides that, they are the very bottom of the food chain that all other sea life depends on.

They cannot survive in acidic water, because they can't form their alkaline shells. And they are one of the biggest carbon sinks on earth. Their shells eventually fall to the bottom of the deep sea, locking carbon, in the form of calcium carbonate, out of the carbon cycle, and thereby helping keep the cycle in a balance that has supported life as we know it.

This acidification is happening now, not in some hypothetical future.

Here's what else I learned in the book.
( IMHO (as a layman) this ought to be enough
to put away many skeptic arguments that are meaningless in light of this.)


It took 60 million years for coal to develop in the earth, from carbon accumulating, by precipitating out of the carbon cycle, and being locked away in coal deposits. Now we are releasing this 60 million year accumulation into our atmosphere, and back into the carbon cycle, in 150-200 years, or a geological nanosecond.

It only takes basic science and common sense to understand the implications of that.
Life as we know it depends on a fairly narrow band of climate and fairly narrow and relatively stable carbon cycle.

I would like a skeptic to explain how releasing this 60 million year accumulation of carbon is part of a natural cycle, or is anything like any natural cycle that the earth has been through before. I mean ones that didn’t wipe out 90% of life on the planet.

And if you like some skeptics would reply that
"nature fills a vaccuum, new species will fill the gaps left by species that go extinct, big deal"

You might want to know that...

It took 100 million years to replace the biodiversity that existed before one of the great dying offs.


'Basic chemistry leaves us in little doubt that our burning of fossil fuels is changing the acidity of our oceans,' said John Raven, professor of biology at the University of Dundee, UK. 'The rate of change we are seeing to the ocean's chemistry is a hundred times faster than has happened for millions of years. We just do not know whether marine life which is already under threat from climate change can adapt to these changes.'

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2005/July/01070501.asp

Another article on ocean acidification here:

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/02/02/tech-acidic-ocean.html

hutchinsongr said...

George Will is right. Sunspot inactivity of the new cycle 24 has solar physicists in a frenzy about lower temperatures. NASA has changed the start date three times and we are witnessing at least a once in a century event.

To look at data over 30 years, even a hundred, maybe even a thousand, by coolists/warmists is laughable and naive.

The solar data is irrefutable - it is, and will get, colder.

see solarcycle24 website message boards

Neal said...

Bandit,

1. The global average temperature IS rising: To study climate trends, you need to look at doing running averages (to flatten the noise) over decades (to flatten the multi-year oscillations).
2. The cause of current warming IS mostly CO2: Explanations based on solar trends don’t match what has been going on in the last 20-30 years.
3. We CAN stop GW by ceasing to emit CO2. The question is whether we have the will.
4. Global warming IS likely to have a primarily negative effect: Primarily, because of the RATE of change, not the direction of change. All life on this planet is optimized for the conditions in which it finds itself, so any fast change is going to be taken negatively. What is “fast”? Evolutionary timescales are about a million years, so trends that occur over a mere 150 years are very very fast.
5. The negative effects ARE great enough to require change to our industries and ways of producing and using energy: The problem is that we cannot go on doing things in the current way without running our planet into the ground. It’s a question of “pay me now or pay me later”.
6. “Shouldn’t we focus on other environmental problems first?” This isn’t a 3-hour examination: If the science is as our scientists say it is, we face a threat that is growing by the day. We need to be able to deal with it, as well as (not instead of) other environmental problems. Humanity has to be able to “chew gum and walk at the same time.”

Bandit, you claim that activists refuse “to take the time and do the science to figure out if what we propose to do is actually something we ought to do.” But the science of global warming has been studied now for over 100 years, longer than quantum physics or relativity. It’s gone from being an academic concept to being a problem with measurable and economically visible effects, such as the devastation of North American pine forests.

freefun0616 said...

酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,

,

weiwei said...

結婚引出物や、結婚?出産などの内祝いほか、さまざまなギフトシーンにご満足いただけるリンベルのカタログギフト。ハウジングスカイなら、いつでも東京都内すべての売買物件(土地?戸建?マンション?投資用物件)の仲介手数料が、無料もしくは 半額(法定上限比)にてお得に不動産がご購入?ご売却いただけます。仲介手数料無料にすることで、よりリーズナブルに新築の一戸建て住宅をご紹介いたします。人気のウォーター サーバーを口コミとランキングから徹底比較!賢い水の宅配業者と正しいウォーター サーバーの選び方を一からやさしくガイドします!横浜市旭区 不動産沿線都市の開発の進む注目の「JR横浜線」の3路線の沿線不動産特集をお送りします。コストダウンの味方「オプティマキッドの名刺 激安」は両面カラー?高級厚紙?名刺作成ラミネート防水加工のハイクオリティです。外出先などで、パソコン版と同様の情報量・検索性でネイルサロンを探せます。シャオウェイヤン(小尾羊)は全世界で700店以上を展開。世界中で愛される本格 薬膳蒙古火鍋しゃぶしゃぶ食べ放題 池袋の専門店です。3つの味(コラーゲン白湯・麻辣紅湯・ヘルシー山珍湯)が1つのコラーゲン鍋で楽しめます。私どもが製造?販売する「からだにうるおうアルカリイオン水」は数ある。OSBAYは、小?中規模のシステム設計?ソフト開発を得意としていますので、高品質、効率的、低コストのソフトウェア受託開発サービスをお客様にご提供できると自負しています。そんなお悩みをお持ちのデザイナー様や看板 製作業者様のニーズに当社が応えます!当社ではあらゆる特殊看板を製作いたしております。トイレ 詰まり(詰まり)?水漏れ、水道工事を 依頼して、他社に「すぐ行けない」、「それは出来ない」と断られた方、いつでも当社にご相談ください。船橋市 不動産なら京葉リネットにお任せを!船橋市 市川市 八千代市を中心に千葉県の不動産物件情報(新築一戸建て・中古住宅・土地・マンション)を掲載しています。