2.17.2009

The Clinton Economic Record and Rising Tides



This is a chart, culled from Census Bureau data, showing the performance of real (inflation-adjusted) household income for various income classes during the last several presidencies. As you'll see, I've lumped together consecutive administrations when the same party remains in power. Also, the data omits transition years -- for example, 2001 is a transition year between Clinton and Bush, and it's not clear who to credit/blame for the economy's performance in that year, so I'm skipping it.

There's a lot to look at in this little chart. Under Nixon/Ford, the very wealthiest did reasonably well, but oddly enough, so did the very poorest (this may have been LBJ's Great Society programs belatedly kicking in rather than anything Nixon/Ford did). But the middle class was left out of the mix, their incomes barely growing over eight years.

In Jimmy Carter's one term in office, the economy wasn't performing terribly well for most anyone, but the poor bore the brunt of the problems. The principal problem during Carter's tenure was inflation; there is some evidence that higher inflation rates tend to hit the poor disproportionately, although this is debated.

Then we get to Reagan/Bush. And we see a large accumulation of wealth up the economic ladder. When Ronald Reagan took office in 1981, the ratio between income at the 90th percentile and income at the 10th percentile was 9.2; when he left office eight years later, it was 10.2.

Under Clinton, by contrast, the economy was a rising tide that lifted all boats. The poor, finally, did quite well for themselves, their incomes appreciating at about 2.5 percent annually, but the rich did just about as well -- in fact, the rich did better under Clinton than they had under Reagan and Bush. The rich/poor gap, if measured as a ratio, did not increase appreciably under Clinton. The 10th percentile saw their incomes increase by about 17 percent during his tenure, and so did the 90th percentile.

Finally, we get to #36, George W. Bush. Bush is getting a bit of a break here, in fact, because the Census Bureau does not yet have data online for 2008; the numbers will be even worse once it does. Nobody did especially well under Bush, but it was the poorest quartile or so who actually saw their incomes decrease.

Manifestly enough, as we see under Reagan/Bush, the government has some capacity to allocate income to one class to another with its economic policy. In general, however, the fates of different economic classes are linked. Since 1967, the correlation in the change in year-over-year income between the 10th and the 90th percentiles is .63.

This latter characteristic is something that I think a lot of liberals tend not to have a good appreciation of. There is sometimes a tendency among liberals to see the economy as a zero-sum game, but this is not really the case. When the economy is doing well, everyone tends to do well, unless the President is trying really, really hard (as Reagan did) to steer that growth only toward certain income classes. And when the economy is doing poorly, everyone tends to do poorly. The poor did awfully under George W. Bush, but the wealthy didn't perform all that well either.

This may be a result of the tendency of liberal thinkers focus their attention on the rich-poor gap, usually measured as a ratio. This can certainly tells us something valuable, but if the goal is to look after the economic well-being of the least well-off, it is probably better to look instead at how the least well-off are performing relative to themselves. A reasonable "progressive" economic goal, for instance, would be to maximize the long-run real income achieved at the 10th or 20th percentile. Essentially, this is a slightly bastardized version of the Rawlsian maximin construct.

How you go about achieving that maximization, of course, is the tricky part. I've included the qualification "long-run", because it is almost assuredly not as simple as a mass transfer of wealth achieved through taxation policy. This might make the poor better off in the near-term, but quite possibly not in the long-run if it the tax shock significantly hampered long-term growth.

For my money, the Clintonan idea of "aggressive" pro-growth policies coupled with a relatively high tax rate on the rich is an attractive one. Let the rich make their money and then tax them (and/or improve social welfare programs for the poor). But don't do things that inhibit economic growth because you're afraid of the redistributive effects. A good example is something like free trade. The emerging consensus among both liberal and conservative economists appears to be that while free trade does increase GDP (as has long been believed), it also has some redistributive effects; the "consensus" solution to this is to have free trade coupled with a more robust safety net.

There is a separate issue about the appropriate amount of business regulation. An overly lax regulatory scheme, as under Bush 43, does not appear to benefit much of anyone. To some extent, the purpose of regulation may be to prevent business from harming themselves due to a sort of tragedy of the commons. This was arguably the problem inherent to the credit crisis: each individual businesses had become so good at hedging its own risk that collectively the banks wound up hedging against themselves, the whole system eventually collapsing like a Jenga game.

Another trap that we can potentially fall into -- but this one being more perilous for conservatives -- is to pursue a set of policies that benefit existing businesses at the expense of emergent businesses. For example, I believe that this problem is manifest in the area of energy, an area where investments in cleaner-burning fuels are quite probably associated with improved long-run economic performance. This might hurt Exxon and GM -- while helping the economy as a whole, which is what policymakers should be concerned about. But existing businesses have lobbyists and emergent ones don't (or at least not as many).

The other potential lesson from the Clinton record, which I've argued may also be observable in the response of the economy to the housing crisis, is that the presence of a robust middle class in fact strongly related to the health of the economy as a whole. Note, again, that the wealthy actually did better under Clinton than they did under Reagan/Bush, even though Reagan/Bush were trying to stack the deck in favor of the wealthy. The explanation I find intuitively appealing is that there is some sort of optimum supply:demand balance in the economy, and that when too large a fraction of income accrues to the wealthy, this balance becomes out of whack because their are too many suppliers (beyond a certain level of income, the wealthy start to invest/supply their excess income rather than consume it) and not enough consumers. Almost all of the countries that are comparably wealthy to the United States have flatter income distributions, the only exceptions being Hong Kong and Singapore (which are as much cities as countries).

So to summarize, here are a few of the working assumptions about the economy that I'll tend to make on this website. I am open to being disabused of these notions, but I'll want to see evidence to the contrary:

1. Growth is good. A rising economic tide tends to lift all boats. We should generally not pass up opportunities to create growth, such as through freer trade, because we are concerned about its redistributive effects. Instead, grow first and then redistribute through tax policy and/or improved safety nets.

2. However, extreme wealth disparities may inhibit growth.

3. To the extent we evaluate the welfare of poorer Americans, we should tend to look at their income in an absolute sense, rather than relative to that of wealthier Americans.

4. Don't mistake the welfare of particular businesses or economic sectors for the welfare of the economy as a whole.

5. Identifying optimum oversight and regulatory schemes is likely to have significant nonzerosum benefits, possibly including to the regulated businesses themselves.

86 comments

Michael said...

First? Haha suckaz!

Chuck said...

What do you call someone who wants to maximize the sum of all 5 columns, without really caring about their relative performance?

Walter Mondale said...

Chuck:

An altruist.

Wouter said...

Not really, when you optimize the sum it doesn't matter which column gets what. That doesn't seem like altruism to me.

alien-radio said...

If you take the assumption that information = wealth = heat is an identity, then thermodynamic principles can be applied to the ecomomy, and you can see that the wealth gap acts Like a thermoelectric pump in a semiconductor

also modelling tends to indicate that all possible economies have wealth concentration

Therefore since growth is better than no growth and nothing can be done about wealth concentration a policy that encourages investment and redistributes after that growth has been generated is best since otherwise the economy on the poor side of the wealth pump would eventually freeze if we take economic activity to be a decision/action/information transfer from an actor/particle to another actor/particle. poor people have no wealth/information to trade and can occupy a limited number of financial/quantum states, while on the rich side ther's a vast number of information states to take but not very many actors/ particles to take them.

It follows that the most productive and stable economy is one in which wealth transfers quickly and often, and the total amount of entropy is increased. basically the best economy is one with a big relatively flat middle class, and limited wealth concentation.

http://alien-radio.livejournal.com/170942.html

Dan said...

Excellent analysis. I have two minor objections, though:

1. I think that crediting Clinton's policies for the tech boom allows for a bit of a correlation/causation fallacy. We don't know how much Clinton's economic policies (which, by and large, I think were good) contributed to growth. A lot of the economic growth can be contributed to vastly improved logistical strategies for Walmart and its competitors (see Eric Beinhocker, The Origin oF Wealth, pg. 262) along with a flurry of new technologies in business. This is just one example of what I would call assigning credit. I'm not convinced that economies respond so quickly to executive policy. What goes on in an economy under a particular president may have more to do with external factors than the policy of that president.

(For a baseball analogy, I'm thinking of DIPS theory. In the end, the batter has more control over the outcomes of BIP than the pitcher; I'll call the batter the underlying economic forces and the pitcher the president in my construct.)

2. We associate Bush 43 with lax regulation, but Sarbanes-Oxley was passed under Bush, and that was among the more heavy-handed regulatory measures the government has passed over the past couple of decades. I think that Bush=deregulation misses part of the story.

As always, though, a worthwhile post with excellent data.

markymark said...

Nate said
3. To the extent we evaluate the welfare of poorer Americans, we should tend to look at their income in an absolute sense, rather than relative to that of wealthier Americans.

----------------

Whilst not wholly disagreeing with this notion, it is important to remember that all wealth is a relative, (ie the poorest are poor because they have less). As a society gets richer, the expectations of all of its members get higher, so the relative distribution of wealth becomes important.

An example of this is that health care insurance in the US has tended to become relatively more expensive as the richer are more prepared to pay higher premiums for more benefits, whilst the poorest sections of society, if they had healthcare before, have been taken out of the range of affordable healthcare, whilst not desiring the benefits that made the premiums more expensive.

All that being said I think there is real value in judging the performance of the poorest sections of society judging by a relatively stable bottom line (such as the poverty line) rather than the unattainable levels of the very rich. Are more people living above or below a meaningful measure of poverty in the US today than 30 or 40 years ago? is a more relavent measure than the gap between rich abd poor.

joelpt said...

I'm very green in the realm of economics, but I have real trouble grokking the "growth is good for the economy" mantra. I hope some smarties here can answer some of my questions below; please forgive me any naivete in advance.

It seems to me that the economy simply cannot grow indefinitely, because we'll eventually run into hard limits with some of our resources, such as minerals, or space to keep humans in. So it seems that eventually, it will be impossible to continue having a "growing" economy.

It also seems that by requiring constant growth for a healthy economy, we are essentially always playing "catch-up" to economic stability and solvency -- always trying to reach an "economic stability horizon" which just gets further away as we approach it, like a mirage.

How can such a situation really be sustainable in the long term? Under this system, can we ever expect to attain economic solvency and internal sustainability?

When the economy is neither growing nor shrinking, why do we call this a "stagnating" economy and not a "stable" or "sustainable" economy?

If consistent economic growth is truly required for us to keep an acceptable standard of living, what's going to happen if we can't grow it any longer?

What is it that "drains" our economy that we must be constantly filling it back up?

If we just consider some small group of people trading the fruits of their labors collectively amongst themselves, it seems to me that there would be no such "drain": as long as the participants continue to produce stuff at a given output level, shouldn't this group of people be able to maintain this indefinitely without "growing their economy"?

If this is so, then why does our larger economy seem dependent on growth in order to not break down?

I hope some folks can illuminate me here.

Tony C. said...

The fundamental error made by free marketers is believing they work. Free markets don't work. Competition works, and that is the point and role of government regulation; to preserve competition.

When Reagan deregulated the airlines, he did a good thing, because over-regulation had purposely removed all elements of competition, not just fares but down to exactly what airlines could serve in flight. Deregulating them allowed them to compete and that drove down prices.

When Reagan deregulated food and cheese inspection, he killed people, because companies were already competing for customers, and the deregulation allowed them to compete on a cost basis by skimping or corrupting their food inspection operations. This created health problems, increased salmonella and other problems, and actually killed people.

That is why free markets fail: They tend toward monopolies, and they allow businesses to compete outside the product arena, using lobbyists, lawsuits, false advertising and outright lies, endangering customers that don't know they are risking their health by using a dangerous product, and squashing competition before it is big enough to threaten them.

In business there are four main dimensions of competition visible to the public: Price, Quality, Exclusivity (brand cachet) and Service. When companies compete on these dimensions, consumers win and companies win, because to compete on these points they must be efficient and effective. Competition is like exercise for the body, it prevents bloat, fat and wasted energy.

Good business is the rising tide that lifts all boats. It delivers more value to the consumers, and that ultimately means a higher rate of compound returns.

I'm not arguing with Nate, I'm saying there is an objective way to measure "too much regulation". Free markets fail. It is Competition that works, and we need the exact amount of regulation that maximizes corporate competition for customers on price, quality, exclusivity and service.

alien-radio said...

@joelpt.

an economy can't stop growing in the long term because You're effectively asking inventiveness to come to an end, and nothing short of policing thought can do that.

long term growth is inevitable in a sentient species, what you want is something that tends towards %100 efficiency in the resources it does use, economic revolutions are always about efficiency gains, we've just been getting our efficiency gains in an unsustainable way at the moment.

Transgendered Mom said...

I think that #2 should be modified to say that extreme wealth disparity will inhibit growth.

Unless there are any examples of where it doesn't.

Ed said...

One thing I think this analysis misses is the ability of the very rich to keep their wealth re inheritance taxes. The 95th percentile under Bush 43 should be shooting off the chart.

@alien-radio:

I like the semiconductor model - one way to look at is that there is a built in ted tendency of the market to push money to the wealthy (built in voltage) and social policy can "short" the "rich" terminal to the "poor" terminal and allow current (money) to flow.

-Ed

Tony C. said...

@joelpt:

When the economy is neither growing nor shrinking, why do we call this a "stagnating" economy and not a "stable" or "sustainable" economy?

Answering this answers most of your questions. Economies grow because people are capable of producing more value than they consume. In modern-day hunter-gatherer primitive societies, for example, people work a few hours a day to reach 'sustainability', and that is without technology to aid them.

Modern industrialized people consume 100 times the energy budget of primitives, but still are only productive 4-6 hours a day. Modern people seem to reach "equilibrium" when they are earning a million a year or so; or ten million in assets, at least that is when many of the wealthy seem to stop trying to accumulate even more wealth, and get distracted by whatever they find entertaining.

Since the average person is nowhere near that we expect the economy to keep growing, just because people are working and producing value, which should increase their income, their purchases, and their assets.

If consistent economic growth is truly required for us to keep an acceptable standard of living, what's going to happen if we can't grow it any longer?

That won't happen in our lifetime. Not being able to grow it means people can no longer produce more value in their lifetime than they consume; that is either a phenomenal rate of consumption, or just means robots are doing everything and we don't work anymore, we just play at things. Which can include scientific research, art, etc.

What is it that "drains" our economy that we must be constantly filling it back up?

Higher rates of consumption. In the USA, you need $10,000 a year or so for housing and food. In sub-Saharan Africa or rural China or rural India, you need a $100 a year, because "housing" (and I use the word advisedly) is free and food is obtained through work.

In the USA, only a tiny percentage of people live in the open and trade an hour or two of labor for their daily calories; the rest want walls, heat, TV, radio, a change of clothes and a more certain source of calories.

If we just consider some small group of people trading [...] shouldn't [they] be able to maintain this indefinitely without "growing their economy"?

Sure, but since you have set their agenda, this also means zero accumulation of wealth and zero population growth (ZPG). This means they work an hour or two a day and never increase their standard of living (which is a different name for consumption), because that is all it takes for them to break even, as long as there is also ZPG.

One man working 30-40 hours a week can tend a farm that grows ten times the food he needs, year round. With technology, 100 times. If everybody is working at this level of productivity, a community produces far more than it can consume: And naturally either work less or start to consume more. The latter is economic growth.

Economic growth is fueled by non-ZPG and profits from higher productivity. We can argue about which is the more natural state, in the middle ages and in primitive cultures, the less work model prevails. Industrialized nations have embraced the growth model, not by force, but because we have collectively decided we like consumerism. It is fun and entertaining, we like the houses, electronics, cars and bikes and entertainment and food and better health care.

But when individuals earn profits beyond the demands of sustenance for themselves and their dependents, that creates profits all up the line. When 99% of people in the USA are completely satisfied with the income they can earn in an hour a day, then economic growth will stop. I imagine that horizon is outside the lifetime of any baby alive today.

Foregone Conclusion said...

However, was Clinton's economic boom (to use a buzzword) sustainable? The pulling down of the Glass-Steagall wall was done in 1999, and so had little affect on Clinton's perceived economic performance. But it did help create a credit bubble that caused short-term GDP growth and the credit mess we're in at the moment.

I think that the term you're scrabbling about for in describing Clinton's broad economic policy is 'social market economy', as pioneered by Erhard, economics minister in the early years of the West German republic. In other words, free trade and free markets with a strong government hand to preserve competition and create a safety net. The parallels are even greater if you compare the EEC (which Erhard helped pioneer) and NAFTA.

Great work, Nate. You may well have found your niche with 'politics with actual facts and statistics inserted.'

Reoldudi: Elderly Italian-American gentleman

Robert said...

You have a couple of sing/plural problems in your "tragedy of the commons" graf, Nate: "prevent business from harming themselves", "each individual businesses had become so good". Overall, an interesting, informative post. Thank you.

E. Naeher said...

Why are you taking all your data from the period following the decoupling of productivity and wages circa 1970?

John Emerson said...

That chart really makes Carter look bad -- much worse than Nixon for poor people. I've never thought of Carter as being a traditional Southern Democrat before, but it looks like he was one. I remember him talking about belt-tightening, etc., but I hadn't realized that he loaded it all on the poor.

John Emerson said...

The "consensus" solution to this is to have free trade coupled with a more robust safety net.

Conservative economists only say this to ward off interference in the economy. When the time comes to improve the safety net, they don't support it.

Alex S. said...

Hey Nate,

while you're on the topic of economic performance, could you maybe try to find a correlation between executive pay and CEO performance? I hear this argument that a cap on executive pay would weaken the incentive of executives to deliver long-term performance. I am almost sure it's wrong but maybe you can make one of those great diagrams.

Susan Weston said...

That graph shows six bars for Carter and six for Reagan-and-Bush-41-combined. Huh?

Michael (mbw) said...

It's great to have this data-driven post, with some explicit points to argue. #3, which seems like the most common-sense conclusion, however, turns out to be based on a false model of human beings (in fact, a false model of most mammals). It turns out that a very significant fraction of our measurable well-being does in fact depend on relative status. By well-being I don't mean survey responses (which obviously are highly relative) but stress hormone levels, immune response, cardiovascular status, etc, which one might expect to be only sensitive to absolute resource measures. This does not mean that therefore distribution is a zero-sum game, since the effects are strongly non-linear. Since the invention of agriculture, we've been operating well outside the inequality range in which almost all our evolution occurred. I recommend Sapolsky's "Why Zebra's Don't Get Ulcers" for a very readable opening into the research literature on this.
The bottom line is that too much inequality is a measurably bad thing in and of itself.

I have some less fundamental quibbles. Real material income includes terms (e.g. use of public parks, libraries...) which are not included in these nominal real incomes. When inequality becomes extreme, the powerful disengage from many of these public goods, leaving the poor less well off than nominal income changes might indicate.

Anyway, thanks for starting a very important conversation.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

"The explanation I find intuitively appealing is that there is some sort of optimum supply:demand balance in the economy, and that when too large a fraction of income accrues to the wealthy, this balance becomes out of whack because their are too many suppliers (beyond a certain level of income, the wealthy start to invest/supply their excess income rather than consume it) and not enough consumers."

Call me a socialist but...I have no evidence of this either but I've always been of the belief excess at the top end is responsible for these extreme bubbles that occur.

When you've got a tens of dozens of individuals with massive amounts of wealth hedging and investing in various markets, you get what has been happening just recently. The pace at which finance firms went from being just 5% of the market a little over a decade ago to over 20% recently would be one example. The surge in crude prices another. Gold another. And housing, yet another.

At a certain point, the "trickle down" ceases. Supplies will only exist to meet demands. Having excess wealth at the top does nothing to create jobs if markets are already saturated with products. Once the consumer demands more products, will the supply increase to meet the demand. Hence Obama's bottom up approach.

I don't hear much about it because everyone is caught up in GOP talking points; generational theft, not bi-partisan, this isn't change we can believe in, bla bla bla but, a big argument is about ready to start up.

The top tax rates are going to expire next year. They will go from the current 35% back up to 38.6% prior to Dubya's temporary tax cut stimulus. Expect a firestorm.

Ezzie said...

Foregone - can you explain the link between Glass-Steagall and the credit crisis? I've heard it bandied about, but haven't heard anyone justify the argument (and have heard fairly decent arguments against it - notably that the investment houses that survived the initial crash were the ones that merged with retail banks).

Nate - re: benefitting existing businesses at the expense of emergent businesses . . .

Certainly lobbyists help make the case for existing rather than emergent businesses. But I think an underappreciated factor is simply that new business is percieved to be riskier - both because they're not presently producing many jobs and because their products may be less familiar.

Do I want to bet on GM continuing to produce jobs and cars, or some crazy startup in California that is going to search a series of tubes for ad revenue?

Much like baseball GMs who prefer the grizzled veteran with a mediocre track record to the high ceiling but untested prospect - even if we have good data about how that prospect's performance will translate to the bigs.

scharch said...

@Tony C./joelpt:

"a community produces far more than it can consume: And naturally either work less or start to consume more. The latter is economic growth."

I still see this as a problem, though perhaps a philosophical one rather than an economic one. There doesn't seem to be any limit on the ability of humans to consume, especially when we take population growth into account. Yet resources *are* limited, so it's foolish and irresponsible to simply say "I imagine that horizon is outside the lifetime of any baby alive today."
This is part of why I think that it makes more sense to focus on the 90%ile:10%ile ratio than on Nate's Rawlsian metric. (I also agree with markymark's points, FWIW.)

liforcerenewal said...

I have to say, You guys...our ancestors have done all the work for us...If You wanna know what the key to solving the economic crisis, it's as simple as one word~INNOVATION...We here in the U.S. began the demolishing of the Earth...now it's our chance to fix it!!! The only sad part of us perishing, is that we know EVERYTHING...including what caused the damage...remember the definition of insanity???
~Special council for The Trees

dteowner said...

Your analysis omits the significant outside influences of geo-political situations. Carter (even though he was a dismal failure) had the oil embargo. Reagan had to deal with the teeth of the cold war. Bush the 1st had Kuwait. Dubya had 9-11 and the fallout from it. Clinton, getting undue credit as usual, had the good fortune to live in good times where all he had to do was not screw it up.

Matthew said...

Regardless of the implications here, this analysis is pretty much stolen from Larry Bartels' book, Unequal Democracy (2008, Princeton Univ. Press), down to the leaving transition years out of the analysis. While I'm all for bringing sometimes intelligent political science to the masses, you have to respect scholarly integrity. The right thing to do here would be to point readers to the book, which is still for sale (and the profits are all being donated to charity).

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Ezzie,

Here's an interesting article regarding the repeal of the Glass-Seagal act back from '99 when it came about that might answer some of your questions.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/bank-n01.shtml

Erik said...

Nate,

Clinton had the advantage of very cheap oil during the period of economic expansion.

I'd be interested in seeing a further correlation between economic expansion and energy prices (of which oil prices are a reasonable proxy).

Erik Nilsson said...

Nate, to your economic rules, I would add an ecological one, where "ecoloogy" is read broadly as the very long-term effects of economic activity on our world. Many policies have a win-win effect on both economic growth and ecologogy, but not all.

John said...

Erik said...
Nate,

Clinton had the advantage of very cheap oil during the period of economic expansion.

I'd be interested in seeing a further correlation between economic expansion and energy prices (of which oil prices are a reasonable proxy).

February 17, 2009 9:22 AM

How about the relative price of corn syrup or leather sofas? Yep Clinton had some luck notably in that the PC revolution really occurred on his watch but then energy prices were very low in the early years of the Bush admin and he didn't take advantage of that fact to do certain things. But then he didn't take advantage of a lot of things. Basically I'm for a statute of limitations on what Presidents inherited. By and large Clinton's economic policies were successful and contrary to popular wisdom the president remains the most potent influence on what happens economically during his watch. It's entirely fair to compare Clinton's record which is stellar on real income growth with that of his successors and predecessors.

peaceable_tate said...

Thanks for the very interesting analysis, and I share joelpt concerns.

Growth can refer to the size of the population and also to the economy, and, of course, the two have been confounded over history--barring wars, disease and famine, the population has grown, and in the absence of radical redistribution policies, economic growth accommodated population growth and benefitted all.

But most people can figure out that problems are bound to happen when resources are finite and demand for those resources is infinite. We had a preview of that when rising demand in China and India drove up the price of oil. We are already experiencing other forms of resource scarcity--water, for example, is in short supply in much of the world. Even in my home, Minnesota, land of 10,000 lakes, they are predicting that we will have water shortages within 25 years because of population growth. So the assertion here that "growth is good" is based on one set of data, and it doesn't integrate some powerful emerging environmental and resource trends.

The question facing our society is how much growth is possible. Driving both conservative and liberal political philosophies are ideas about how to order society and distribute resources when economic growth is limited.

John said...

"Reagan had to deal with the teeth of the cold war."

So did Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford and Carter. If anything the cold war was broadly stimulative provided you didn't let things get out of control as Reagan rather did. Not that I don't think that in many ways Reagan's presidency was a success although defence expenditures were a substantial contributor to his deficit spending.

markymark said...

On the wider aspects of Nate's analysis, it is difficult to know how much credit to give the President or even politicians at all per se, in getting the economy to grow.

Jimmy Carter is an interesting example here. The energy crisis of the 1970s had a huge impact on the global economy. It started before Carter came into office. Is it right to make a judgement about his performance in office and compare it directly with say Clinton's presidency who had no such crisis to compete with. To present this data as evidence of presidential success to me seems a bit unfair.

As well, the graph certainly, misses any real sense of economic policy. So deficits sky rocket under Reagan and the 2 Bushes, but the graph seems to suggest they were relatively succesful economic presidencies. (of course I guess some economists might suggest that high deficit spending is not a problem.)

nikip5555 said...

Nate, there's a lot in here, but one key point: I'd propose reversing the causality in one of your statements:

When everyone is doing well, the economy does well. When everyone is doing poorly, the economy does poorly.

Of course, in real life it works both ways, but I think the "reverse proposition" above is particularly important in light of our current situation. We've seen many years of "the poor getting poorer," "compensated" for by bubble-induced spending which could no longer be sustained and led to a big crash. Two (maybe more) conclusions: (a) distribution of wealth DOES matter; if a significant number of people are left out of economic growth, ultimately that economy is in trouble; (b) the way out of this mess is to create demand among the "masses" for lack of a better word, by getting them jobs and making sure they can afford health care &c.

Craig said...

It's a shame that the data cuts off at Nixon/Ford. It would be nice to see the data for Roosevelt/Truman, Eisenhower and Johnson/Kennedy, which you could argue were the golden years for liberal taxation policy, and were really the time when the middle class was created.

ave05mwg said...

Nate, I find it hard to characterize the view you express on free trade--that it increases growth but has redistributive effects--as "as an emerging consensus among both liberal and conservative economists." This has been a point of agreement between conservative and liberal MAINSTREAM economists for, uhm, 200 years.

joelpt, I strongly recommend Benjamin M Friedman's book, The Moral Consequences of Economic Growth. It's a very readable discussion of why economic growth is a Good Thing and why what you call "stability" is a Bad Thing. The short short version of one key point: people are looking to better themselves. Under economic growth, you can look to better yourself in a cooperative way, where everyone is getting better off. Under stagnation/stability, you can make yourself and your group better off only by making other people and other group's worse off. Stagnation encourages the war of all against all.

The main driver of economic growth is technological change. The great hope is that technological change will let us get more out of our existing resources, and open up new resources for use. If we simply continue to have humans living as they are now, then we will exhaust the resources we currently rely on.

dteowner, you seem to have a certain lack of respect for magnitudes. The oil shocks were a huge economy-wide disaster, a much bigger economic crisis than any of the other presidents on this list faced. The first gulf war was not a very big deal from the point of view of the macro-economy. 9-11 was a very small event from the point of view of the macro-economy, even counting the increased security that actually happened and the liberation of Afghanistan. (Bush's main foreign policy issue, the liberation/occupation of Iraq, is also not going to explain most of his economic performance, and is his own administration's doing anyway.)

Clinton had financial crises in Asia and Latin America that could have become serious macroeconomic problems, but which were contained (partly through his economic team's efforts).

Michael (mbw) said...

The positive correlation coefficient of 0.63 between the top and bottom may be misleading. Various external events (e.g. fluctuations in oil prices)create correlated changes. The more relevant question is whether policy choices create correlated or anti-correlated changes for these sectors. It's likely that the answer will be 'sometimes each', but in any case the +0.63 looks like a red herring.

artboy811 said...

Yeah, Nate's analysis resembles the conclusions of Larry Bartel's book Unequal Democracy:


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/business/31view.html?scp=5&sq=%22unequal%20democracy%22&st=cse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_the_United_States#Economic_performance

bokonin said...

Speaking as a man with an economics degree, I nonetheless have two strong objections to Nate's assumptions, one of which has been usefully (but only partially) been raised above, one of which we've skipped.

1) There probably are environmental limits to growth, despite human inventiveness, which I will couple with an _optimistic_ statement. Human inventiveness does not have to be wasted on constant growth, which long since lost any but the feeblest correlation with increased human happiness: it can as easily be spent on finding ways to produce the SAME amount, or a little less, with dramatically FEWER resources and with far more spare time left over. Too much economic "growth" is in substituting unsatisfying market transactions for do-it-yourselfness: crappy fast food for people who have no time to cook, fax machines and cell phones for people who can't afford to relax away from work, Prozac and Xanax for people who have no time to exercise, lounge outside, or socialize. Economic growth, even when evenly distributed, often is a symptom of failure.

2) Nate is also dead wrong, according to what we know of human happiness studies (a lot), in saying that absolute wealth of the bottom quartile is more important than relative wealth. Actually, once people achieve basic health, shelter, and food needs -- which the U.S. economy IS rich enough to supply for everyone, though it does not -- their happiness is far more strongly related to how they compare themselves to those around them. The massive wealth of the rich isn't just wasteful: it actively makes the non-rich less happy. More compressed economies measure as happier ones, by all the methods of measurement psychology has devised, from people's self-assessments on up.

artboy811 said...

I'm not accusing Nate of plagiarizing Bartel at all though. Nate focused heavily on the Clinton years, and he started with his own raw data. Bartel's analysis goes back to WWII.

Tony C. said...

@scharch:

There doesn't seem to be any limit on the ability of humans to consume...

I disagree. At least in sociological studies, the majority of people that get rich (actors, athletes, businessmen) tend to settle on a personal comfort expenditure of about $60,000 a month in consumption. That pays for their house(s), travel, staff, domestic help and purchases. Not business, political or charitable expenses.

I read that about ten years ago, so inflation might have boosted it a bit.

A few uber-wealthy like Donald Trump get pretty extravagant, but the majority of the rich that can afford anything they want end up spending about $800K a year. Some get excessive in collecting rare art, buying their way into politics, or engaging in charities. These things can blow millions in a day. But if you look at the personal comfort expenditures of billionaires like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett or T. Boone Pickens, they are surprisingly modest for people that can afford anything.

Consumption does not necessarily pollute the earth or consume non-renewable resources. It is clearly possible for consumption to be green, and energy to be renewable, and a lot of personal comfort expenditures boil down to energy consumption. In other cases, consumption is just paying for somebody's crazy rare skill, like a top chef or artist or an actor or musician or script writer or novelist. That kind of consumption is not polluting in any way.

Michael (mbw) said...

@bokonin- thanks.
Now we'll find out whether the self-proclaimed empiricists are interested in actual research and data.

Bruno said...

In response to assumption 3. you might want to look at Andrew Oswald's work on the effect of relative inequality on mental and physical health, and happines.

Cheers

MichaelK said...

For a web site that prides itself on being nuanced (and which it has done so well at in regards to electoral politics), 538 is falling far short of its goal in regards to the discourse on policy and political philosophy.

N8 shouldn't be surprised to have Sirota and others get a little upset when he is taking such issue with the "radicals" approach.

But what really strikes me is how Nate's postings on 538 have been fairly philosophically ahistorical. The distinctions he is trying to draw between "reformist" and "radical" is part of a decades old debate on the left. Yet the content of his postings (a simple chart, for example) greatly oversimplifies complex political strategic choices and the outcomes that result from those choices.

For example, showing a chart of income growth during the Clinton years to argue for the supremacy of "reformist" progressivism is a disappointingly simplistic answer to a much more complicated question. Surely N8 knows that much of that income growth cannot be attributed to Clintonian economic policy but rather historical timing. Not that economic policy doesn't matter, but is that really the hook upon which Nate's argument rests? That is way too easy and I have come to expect a much greater level of insight from 538 than reducing the debate between "reform" and "radical" to a comparison between Clinton-era income growth and the Soviet-era economy. Give me a break.

IdeaMan said...

Another potentially interesting analysis would be to look at the "keeping up with the Joneses" effect.

How does relative income disparity affects debt levels? Or alternatively, how personal debt levels fluctuate as income growth shrinks?

My personal observation is that people will use credit to try to maintain an existing standard of living or level of consumption, even if they are no longer able to earn that wage.

If income disparities are arising, or some people are suffering more than others, they will attempt to use available credit to "cover the gap" until credit is effectively no longer available, causing a massive collapse. The collapse has the effect of lowering everyone's standard of living simultaneously.

Thus the chain is:

1) general prosperity leads to greater consumption

2) relative disparity in income during a slow-down leads to using credit to "buttress" a personal down-turn

3) wide-spread use of credit masks downturn until eventually all credit is exhausted and defaults happen

4) defaults lead to an overall economic collapse

5) universal impact leads to drop in general consumption

6) growth can begin again as productivity begins to increase above the reduced consumption levels

The worry right now is that we've exhausted personal credit, so the only way to preserve our current standard of living as a country is to borrow significantly (and in fact, with universal healthcare, we're actually trying to increase our standard of living). The risk here is that we won't acknowledge that we need to reduce our rate of consumption until the US begins to default. So instead of a local economic impact such as happened to Japan, we create the environment for a global economic meltdown when major countries begin to default on their loans.

I worry when Nate and others consider us a "rich country" that therefore has a moral imperative to take care of those less fortunate. Arguably, we may have a moral imperative regardless of wealth, but given our country's debt ratio, we're far from wealthy.

Until we all individually and all collectively recognize we're not as wealthy as we think we are, we're just setting up for the next collapse.

Intergrity4US said...

Nate -- Your data differs signficantly from the IRS adjusted gross income data. That data shows massive shifts to the top 1% of income earners from the end of Jimmy Carter's term essentially up to the present.

Why is the Census data so different from the IRS data???

President Year Top 1% Top 2-5% Bottom 50%
Carter 1980 8.5% 12.6% 17.7%
Reagan 1981 8.3% 12.5% 17.8%
Reagan 1982 8.9% 12.3% 17.7%
Reagan 1983 9.3% 12.5% 17.5%
Reagan 1984 9.7% 12.5% 17.4%
Reagan 1985 10.0% 12.6% 17.3%
Reagan 1986 11.3% 12.8% 16.7%
Reagan 1987 12.3% 13.4% 15.6%
Reagan 1988 15.2% 13.4% 14.9%
Bush I 1989 14.2% 13.7% 15.0%
Bush I 1990 14.0% 13.6% 15.0%
Bush I 1991 13.0% 13.8% 15.1%
Bush I 1992 14.2% 13.8% 14.9%
Clinton 1993 13.8% 14.0% 14.9%
Clinton 1994 13.8% 14.1% 14.9%
Clinton 1995 14.6% 14.2% 14.5%
Clinton 1996 16.0% 14.3% 14.1%
Clinton 1997 17.4% 14.4% 13.8%
Clinton 1998 18.5% 14.4% 13.7%
Clinton 1999 19.5% 14.5% 13.3%
Clinton 2000 20.8% 14.5% 13.0%
Bush II 2001 17.5% 14.5% 13.8%
Bush II 2002 16.1% 14.4% 14.2%
Bush II 2003 16.8% 14.4% 14.0%
Bush II 2004 19.0% 14.5% 13.4%
Bush II 2005 21.2% 14.6% 12.8%

bear-sophie said...

Nate,
This economic quintile argument has been presented ad nauseam from the Kozols in Sociology 101 classes, all the way down to this partisan blog. I have to say, I am shocked that there is a whole lot of static analysis leveraged here, along with usage of a centerpiece of (largely) irrelevant statistic of “real dollars”.
Many folks above have posted very prescient objections on the subject of batter-pitcher and other factors and such. I have more:
1) I think giving credit to presidents – even if we wish to assign arbitrary %’s of their estimated contributions – is directional at best, as are characterizations of their policies. I think you present a greater argument for DIVIDED GOVERNMENT than you do the policies of any given administration. Does Newt Gingrich deserve credit Clinton also receives? Checks and balances of parties controlling either branch seems to work better. Look at your data through that lens, in lieu of inventing notions of the Clinton’s “decisions”.
2) Please publish alongside the "real" dollars by quintile permeability between the groups. e.g., how many folks in lowest 20% end up in the highest 20%, or vice versa. Until I see this information included, and when you see it, it shockingly reaffirms the American dream.
3) In a related criticism, reporting wealth versus income is silly while not in tandem with each other. The non-inclusion of other metrics into the mix such as life stage changes, aging, demographics, and even deaths. Suppose the bottom quintile now comprises 50% non-working elderly, and used to comprise 30%? Suppose influx of cheap labopr and immigrants swells the “bottom 20%”, whose presence alone puts downward pressure on incomes? Lesson: Who these people are in each quintile is important.
4) I also posit currently, status in the second highest two 20% boxes means far different things in some states compared to others. In MS vs. CT, for example a sum of "real" dollars mean different things and capabilities.
5) Related to the above, and different - what is a "real" dollar value today on anything mean?
It is a relatively inept form of equivalization across time periods, and even if you buy into its usage quite a blunt instrument. Why?
I would argue a dollar’s value is still much, much greater than any prior time – unless of course, you choose to purchase milk. Ok, the challenge: Tell me how many cellphones in the Nixon Ford years you could purchase with $100? How much is the cost of a subscription to an internet service provider in broadband now vs. 1993? How about cost of a vaccine that prevents cervical cancer in women, in 1960? The answer is, “these things weren't available then”. What a revelation! A “real” dollar commands superior, better variety of goods and services than it did in the past. Measuring real costs related to the value of a Milk, gasoline, or other items-in- items-out inclusions in the CPI is a joke, and commoditizes something technology and progress actually renders far more dynamic and amazing. Even the average price of a "car", "refrigerator", or "home" all mean different things one era to another - what a fridge can do now vs. 1972 is substantial. So, again, what your income may purchase - even if it had declined - is always appreciably greater as technology improves.
6) Lastly, related to the final point, median members of the so-called “lowest 20%” may be living better now due to advances - even if their income in “real dollars” declined. This is a difficult argument to overcome alone, the old “when would you rather be born” one.

Chris Radcliff said...

A great visualization, and some really thought-provoking commentary on it. Thanks for providing this; I've often heard how the economy was a "rising tide" under Clinton, but this dramatically illustrates it.

On an unrelated note, I noticed a few typos and posted potential corrections to Emend. (http://emend.appspot.com/sites/www.fivethirtyeight.com)

Tom said...

Nate, your argument discusses "free trade" as a good thing on a national level, but leaves unaddressed its ramifications on an international one. I find any analysis that skips over all the externalities highly suspect.

Dietrich2 said...

Re: Gains for both poor and rich under Clinton

As Jim Hightower likes to quote his daddy: "Everyone does better when EVERYONE does better."

Veek said...

Very interesting discussions all around! I'm pleasantly surprised at the lack of inflammatory or disruptive comments too.

Here are some thoughts on the issue of growth and sustainability raised by joelpt.

1. Tony C's explanation of why growth happens is good, but refinement can be added IMO. It is not simply producing more than one consumes that leads to growth. Let's start with a village of 20 farmers. If each can produce food to feed 10 people, they are either taking it easy or food is going to waste. If two farmers work at full capacity to provide food for everyone, that frees others to do other things, like improve shelters, etc. This of course leads to growth and is what Tony C is arguing. However, the only thing that's been done is better allocation. From year to year, if the same allocation of labor is used, that same farmer will produce food for 10 people and the other people will produce the same amount of other goods for everyone else. Growth does NOT happen year to year, even though each person is producing more of a good than they consume. What actually would create growth in this situation is increased productivity. If a farmer can now produce food for 20 people, then you can reallocate the other farmer to another job, leading to growth. In other words, it is ultimately increases in productivity (through technology or expertise for example) that enable growth, not simply producing more of a product than you consume (which in some sense is a necessary condition for survival, if we can't even produce enough food to consume ourselves). This is what microecon tells us too: that optimal allocation of resources can be achieved (through perfect competition, etc), which of course is better than suboptimal allocation, but true growth only happens with improved productivity through investment, technology, etc. I am neglecting population and number of hours worked, since both are in some sense just scaling factors, and neither is "true" growth.

2. The bigger question that joelpt is asking is not why or how we grow, but can we indefinitely and should we grow. I think the answer is "depends" to both. As many others have pointed out, the things that contribute to GDP can be quite varied, from fighting wars to improving energy efficiency. This is one of the biggest fallacies of modern economic thought. Humans like to observe and think about the world in simplistic terms, and the flawed concept of GDP is a result of that. The truth, like in almost every field, is more complicated and requires more work and nuance.

Many of our pursuits that increase GDP are fundamentally damaging and unsustainable, and would lead to a decline in a more nuanced and holistic definition of human value than GDP. Others can be made sustainable but do not directly improve our condition or counteract negative aspects, such as some service jobs. Of course, some jobs do improve the welfare of humankind and the earth. If we focus primarily on the first, then of course we can't grow indefinitely and shouldn't. I think the mission of sustainability is not to create a knee-jerk reaction against growth, but rather work to cull and cultivate the sustainable aspects of an economy over the unsustainable aspects. A simplistic belief in growth being good is not helpful either, which seems to be the predominant (and accepted) view. Economics is simply an abstract theory about how to maximize or minimize quantities; it is up to people to determine the value of what we are trying to achieve.

lensch said...

I strongly disagree with the idea that higher taxes inhibit growth. The article you refernce is unconvincing. Here are some facts. I hope your text editor will not mangle this table:



Sweden 50.2 2.5
Denmark 48.9 1.7
Belgium 46.4 1.7
Finland 45.9 3.4
Austria 44.0 1.9
France 44.0 1.6
Norway 43.5 2.1
Italy 42.6 1.1
Luxembourg41.8 3.4
Netherlands39.2 2.0
Germany 36.0 1.2
Greece 35.9 3.5
United Kingdom35.8 2.4
Spain 35.6 3.1
New Zealand34.9 2.1
Canada 33.9 2.3
Portugal 33.9 1.8
Australia 31.5 2.5
Switzerland30.3 1.0
Ireland 28.4 6.0
United States26.4 2.1
Japan 25.8 1.0

Well not too bad. The first number is the overall tax rate while the second is growth (= average real per capita growth in GDP 1995 - 2005). As you can see, little correlation. (No correlation implies no causality.)

If you still are not convinced, divide the period after WWII into 1946 - 1973 and 1973 to present. The first is a high tax period especially marginal rates. The second is a much lower tax period. Real median wages grew about 3 times as fast in the first period. The national debt as a percentage of the GDP went straight down in the first period and mostly up in the second. And so on.

-Brando said...

I'm a subscriber to the idea that the prosperity of one class is somewhat linked to the prosperity of the others. Yet the .63 correlation is a bit misleading. While it sounds high, it should be noted that the r-squared value is just over 1/3, suggesting that while there is a link between wealth accumulation across all classes, it is not inextricable.

Benjamin said...

Isn't Congress the governmental body responsible for taxes and fiscal policy? Not to mention the Fed. Reserve which is responsible for monetary policy. Sure the president has an influence, but as I understand it he is not the architect.

From these facts I would think a similar analysis trending income vs. an economically liberal or conservative congress would have a better chance of showing a true cause/effect relationship...

Tony C. said...

@Veek:

Points taken, but I disagree that population growth is not economic growth. What most societies do, in fact, is invest their excess food in children, and that does in fact increase both our economic activity (not per capita, but gross) and economic capacity.

Of course excess productivity leads to specializations; we don't need ten times as much food as we can possibly eat! So either nobody works too hard, or a tenth of them work hard to feed the rest, and trade their excess food for something else: tools, entertainment, sex, child rearing aid, whatever.

As far as technology is concerned, advances in productivity produces economic growth, for sure, but I don't regard this as the only kind of growth that "counts". Without any productivity multipliers, if I produce ten times what I need to survive every year, in fifty years I can accumulate quite a bit of wealth, because I don't have to spend all of that excess on ephemeral comforts, I can spend most of it on lasting or permanent assets. Besides using it to raise children (or in addition to that), I might save and buy a breeding pair of goats, and have a permanent supply of milk, meat, and fertilizer.

In other words the excess can be invested instead of squandered on entertainment or idleness, and the returns on the investment can create real economic growth that has nothing to do with technological advancement.

Veek said...

@Tony C.

Thanks for your comments. I think I agree with you mostly. A few minor points:

Of course increased population means increased GDP, as does increased number of work hours, but I'm really only talking about a measure of intensive economic activity, such as per capita GDP, rather than extensive (aggregate), such as total GDP, as a measure of "progress".

I think also technology and investment are equated in microeconomic terms. I wrote in my original post that both are included as methods to achieving "real" growth. Tech and investment (and other things such as labor expertise) are all grouped together as ways of increasing productivity, and are collectively the means of growth, rather than simple reallocation. But I completely agree with you that producing more than one consumes is a prerequisite to making investments or for technological improvements.

Finally, I think we have to make a definitional clarification here. GDP and income are both time dependent. i.e. GDP is what is produced PER YEAR. Therefore, if we overproduce and accumulate, as you describe, that is technically not growth if I'm overproducing by the same amount each year. You have to take that accumulation and make some sort of investment, like you describe, that leads to overproducing by a greater amount the following year, to produce growth.

Jon said...

I believe that Obama, as a progressive, wants populists (the common people) to organize into a political movement, use that movement to to elect sympathetic progressives (the educated elite) and then pressure them to implement policies that will benefit the common man. I think progressives like Obama get nervous (and rightly so) when populist leaders goad the common man to bypass the "elitists" and take matters into their own hands.

Matthew said...

I am actually accusing Nate of plagarism on this one. It's a shame he is passing this idea off as his own when it's been published and the book did receive a fair amount of buzz. I'm sure Nate has made attempts to publish his writing in scholarly journals (his coauthored papers with Andrew Gelman made the rounds on the POLMETH listserv) and so he knows the importance of citing sources. This is plagarism and would violate the honor code at any reputable institution. The punishment for this at Princeton, Bartels' University, is at least an F in the course, if not a 1-year academic suspension.

hosertohoosier said...

"Of course increased population means increased GDP, as does increased number of work hours, but I'm really only talking about a measure of intensive economic activity, such as per capita GDP, rather than extensive (aggregate), such as total GDP, as a measure of "progress"."

The problem with GDP per capita is that it leaves out one very important good from the basket: leisure. Somebody (or some society), given a greater ability to produce could well choose to consume the same amount as before, but to work less. They are undeniably better off by having made that choice. Moreover, you can have temporal distortions in GDP, depending upon how it is calculated. You could cut interest rates to 0% and eliminate all taxes. GDP per capita would rise in the short term, but that would not be sustainable in the long-run.

For that reason, labor productivity is the best non-normative measure of a society's wealth. It is, simply put, a measure of everything a country could produce, and so can capture the counter-factual where people choose leisure over work (as Europeans are more likely to do). Of course it doesn't work so well as a "misery index" - the economy has fluctuations - so you can look at unemployment and inflation for that.

Looking at GDP per capita or misery index stats (as Nate did) to measure the success or failure of a president is pretty dumb, particularly when much of that is more the purview of the business cycle and the fed, neither of which a president can control. Government policy has mild impacts on long-term growth that are not always realized for some time (eg. ARPAnet came out in the early 80's, but the IT boom didn't happen till the late 90's).

How do the presidents measure up on productivity?

Average productivity growth by president (note Truman starts in 1948; source: BLS)

Truman 3.46
Eisenhower 2.2
JFK/LBJ 3.24
Nixon 2.1
Carter 0.6
Reagan 1.71
Bush I 2.1
Clinton 1.85
Bush II 2.51

Clinton and Reagan are though of as being good economic managers. However, in terms of long-term productivity, they are the third and second-worst performers. What do they have in common? They both were very fortunate with respect to the business cycle - they came into power towards the end of a recession, and left office before the next one. Reagan's accomplishments on inflation had more to do with Volcker (and reforms of the fed that happened under Carter), and Clinton's success with Greenspan than with anything either president actually did.

There is essentially no correlation between ideology and outcomes in this data, either. That is because most of the disagreements between the left and the right have little impact on the main drivers of growth (innovation).

The data also shows that productivity growth has some stickiness with GDP growth. That is, we develop a greater capacity to produce but only later realize the economic benefits of that greater production (certainly a good sign for Obama).

hosertohoosier said...

"The punishment for this at Princeton, Bartels' University, is at least an F in the course, if not a 1-year academic suspension."

Nate Silver for vice-president!

dsimon said...

Tony C.:
When Reagan deregulated the airlines...

Historical note: airline deregulation was under Carter. The Airline Deregulation Act was signed into law in 1978. Deregulation of trucking and railroads also occurred under Carter. Reagan fired the air traffic controllers for striking, but he didn't deregulate any of these areas.

hosertohoosier said...

"

If you still are not convinced, divide the period after WWII into 1946 - 1973 and 1973 to present. The first is a high tax period especially marginal rates. The second is a much lower tax period. Real median wages grew about 3 times as fast in the first period. The national debt as a percentage of the GDP went straight down in the first period and mostly up in the second. And so on."

These cross-national studies are not especially useful. Countries that are catching up to the lead economy (the most advanced economy) face a different game than those that are at the cutting edge of technology. The kinds of institutions required depend on the technological paradigm, and the position of the country on the techno-totem pole.

For instance, Germany in the 19th century was the world leader in chemical dye manufactures (although Britain was the early innovator). This was because initially Germany had no patent laws, so Germans ripped off British designs, competed a lot generating efficient firms, and finally lobbied to get a patent law. Through all this the unique German education system (which was later adopted by the US) played a key role in fostering links between industry and academia. German median workers were also well-educated thanks to the extensive German welfare state. You could see arguments like this made for other industries, like aerospace, for instance.

By contrast, when you are talking
about IT or the textiles revolution of the early 19th century you have an entirely different kettle of fish. The industry leaders there were states with the least regulation and the smallest government, where small, mobile and flexible firms could easily emerge and make a bundle (of course you also needed ARPAnet for IT, further demonstrating that it is a complex story).

The economy is made up of many industries (not all are growth industries, but you still have a lot of those), each of which have different needs from government (some laissez-faire, some let 'er rip). This is compounded by the fact that catching up is a different game from leading. On top of it all, governments can't anticipate what the next big industry will be, nor what institutions will best nurture it.

What is my point? My point is that panacea answers like "low taxes" or "big government" or whatever are extremely unlikely to predict long-term economic growth. You can cut taxes and get a boom (like JFK did), or get very little (like Dubya did) - generally the most important factor is whether the economy was recovering from a recession.

So what can we do, and what should we ask for from governments? Flexibility, I think, is about it. Governments should be able to build institutions that effectively adapt for the continuous economic transitions. Yet we don't get flexibility when the left and the right reduce discourse to whether we should run massive deficits through spending or tax cuts.

markymark said...

Matthew,

How is Nate's analysis similar to anything Bartels put in a book? You are the acedemic expert apperently, give us some evidence from Bartels work, and I mean quotes, to back up what you are saying. As far as I can gather from a brief reading of some of Bartels work it is in some ways fundamentally different from Nate's analysis. Nate seems to be suggesting we shouldn't use a comparative rich vs poor analysis of economic growth, whereas Bartels seems to be using exactly that type of analysis. (I could be wrong like I say it was a quick readiong, but your the one making a pretty strong accusation so you are the one who needs to back that up!) Also I can find no evidence anywhere that proceeds from 'Unequal Democracy' are going to charity. Or have you just made that up as well?

Tony C. said...

@dsimon:

Okay, my mistake. But my point stands; airline deregulation created competition that increased value for consumers. Something like bank or SEC deregulation can harm consumers by legalizing harmful practices, misinformation, predatory practices or suppression of nascent competitors.

@Veek: We still disagree! I am not trying to define "progress", I was asked about "economic growth". A bigger economy is a bigger economy, period. The question is how much value is traded, not how quickly. The value traded and correlated with the assets owned; if the average person owns $1,000 worth of assets, the amount traded each year is much less than if the average person owns $1,000,000 worth of assets.

Economic growth isn't just a year by year thing. When we die, most of us leave behind decades worth of accumulated value, to somebody. That net worth is is an economic transaction as well, and over generations increases the net worth of society, and increases economic activity.

I don't understand this obsession with technological progress as the only thing that counts. The economy gets bigger because we produce more than we use, both yearly and in our lifetime, and the increased assets produce increased trading of assets.

You might want to measure "progress" by per capita production, but that is not synonymous with economic growth. In many ways, particularly for agrarian societies, children are the whole point of producing more than you yourself need, and raising children is considered an investment because eventually they will also produce more than they need, to the benefit of their parents.

So I will agree that progress is something we can measure as increased productivity, but increased productivity is not the one and only route to economic growth. The "economy" refers to the amount of goods traded. If nobody is trading there is no economy!

GDP is the total of expenditures for final goods in a country; meaning it is a measure of traded value. The total traded value can and does increase as assets increase, regardless of productivity or "progress".

Matthew said...

http://www.labyrinthbooks.com/events_detail.aspx?evtid=361

Proof the profits are going to a Trenton, NJ charity.

As for proof it's plagarized, just read Chapters 1 and 2. There is no way you can completely regurgitate someone's analysis without citing it properly. At the very least, a link to the book and a nod that this analysis isn't original is in order.

Mark said...

Without commenting on the quality of Nate's arguments (in part excellent, in part over the top), I just have to say I find this whole thing so delicious. I supported Clinton in the primaries precisely because I thought she would be more likely to carry out Clintonian (what Nate calls "rational progressive") policies. Even though I didn't support Obama, I grudgingly admired Nate's campaign analyses, way back when he was "poblano" on Daily Kos.

Now, what do we end up with? Obama showing all signs of being a more successful Clintonian president than the Clintons -- and Nate going all out after David Sirota in his first big intra-left fight!!

What more could a guy ask for in life?

myub40 said...

excellent analysis....i like the graphs

coolstar said...

Matthew makes some very good points concerning plagiarism. It is of course, POSSIBLE, that it's not (very famous example: Leibniz and Newton both inventing calculus). The onus is now on Nate Silver to prove that it's NOT plagiarism (as in all cases of academic dishonesty). (easiest way out, simply admit he read the relevant analysis and neglected to reference it. Of course, that doesn't excuse the error.)
I've successfully prosecuted cases of academic dishonesty with exactly the results Matthew mentions. My gut feeling is that this case, while serious, is not as bad as some I've seen (probably result in an F in the class not suspension for a year, but different honor boards have different standards.....)

John said...

Nate, can you make a graph showing which party controlled Congress and increases in wealth? I'm sure you know that Congress has as much, if not more, influence on the country than the President does.

mhz said...

With luck the advances that women are making toward social and economic equality will have two-fold benefit.

1) Reduced environmental damage- Apparently birthrates and population growth slow down when women get more control over their lives and the lives of their offspring-

2) Increased overall standard of living which means increases in economic prosperity.

Given control over their lives women tend to have fewer offspring and provide a high quality life for those offspring. (the octuplet lady is obviously not employing this strategy).

I also think/hope that the mindless and environmentally destructive consumerism that we have been engaging in will wane as women make social and economic advances. I am hoping that as women head more households social values will change. If so it is possible that many of the activities that women engage in will become more socially valuable and therefore more economically important/viable. For example:

1)Women tend to read more than men- more people can make a reasonable living writing.
2) Women tend to pursue continuing educational activities- more people can make a living by teaching and transferring knowledge.

Sorry I don't have links for these claims. They may not be true but I suspect they are.

Also we currently do not properly account for the care of children in our economy. I suspect that pay scales for childcare and k-12 teaching work are positively correlated with education level and economic security/autonomy of the female portion of a given population. Child care should be a very important factor in our economy- It would be interesting to compare what portion of our "GDP" comes from the professional sports industry vs portion that comes from the care, feeding, and education of our children ages 0-16.

Both Bill Clinton and Barak Obama were to some degree fatherless. Both men may have benefited from having learned about world from a mother/grandmother.

PlatoX32X said...

1) The accusations that this analysis is stolen from Bartels's recent book are silly. These sorts of studies and comparisons have been done for decades; Bartels book is not only not the first, it is not even the first popularizing book. Just go do a library search for poverty and income inequality.

2) Regarding regulatory effects: we seem to see a lower bound on regulation, where deregulation beyond a certain point (during Reagan and the Bushs) seem to hurt the poor, and possibly everyone. But have we seen an upper bound? Carter's era was not much more regulatory than Clinton's (and anyway, we blame the poor performance there on other factors), so for all we know, 10x the regulation of the Clinton era could be the sweet spot. It's dumb to read tea leaves with such few data, but if we must, at least admit that, for all these data say, all boats could go up fastest with much more regulation than America has yet seen in the modern era.

joelpt said...

Just wanted to say thanks to all the posters who chimed in on my questions regarding economic growth. It has been very helpful.

markymark said...

Matthew said
http://www.labyrinthbooks.com/events_detail.aspx?evtid=361

Proof the profits are going to a Trenton, NJ charity.

As for proof it's plagarized, just read Chapters 1 and 2. There is no way you can completely regurgitate someone's analysis without citing it properly. At the very least, a link to the book and a nod that this analysis isn't original is in order.
----------------------

Thanks for showing that Bartels is donating his royalties to charity. But you still haven't given any quotes or evidence of any kind that Nate has plagiarized Bartlels work.

It is after all not impossible for two people to look independently at the same data and reach similar conclusions. (And both Nate and Bartels cite the census bureau data). You have not given any evidence to back up what is a serious allegation. Just saying 'You can't read chapters one and two'. Yes they may be similar but where is evidence of plagiarism?

Tony C. said...

@coolstar:

As a professional mathematician; I regret to inform you that Leibniz and Newton did NOT both invent calculus. Leibniz did it himself. We still use Leibniz notation for derivatives, and the central proofs in calculus, although modernized and made more bulletproof since his day, were devised by Leibniz.

Newton invented something he called "infinitesimals", a field of numbers always greater than zero but always less than any real number. It was a dumb idea, and when published, Leibniz not only brought Newton's attention to Leibniz calculus, but poked a half dozen logical holes in Newton's theory of "infinitesimals".

Newton was an egotistical asshole, and proceeded to claim that his theory of infinitesimals and Leibniz calculus were identical, despite the fact that Newton had no limit theorem (the #1 proof in calculus). Newton was already a legitimately famous genius. Leibniz was not. Newton got credit for inventing calculus when Leibniz did all the heavy lifting. Newton stopped talking about the dumb parts of his infinitesimal idea, and started using and presenting calculus as his own work.

In any introductory calculus class, you are being schooled by Leibniz; his ideas, his diagrams, his proofs, his notation, done years before Newton.

Saying Newton and Leibniz co-invented calculus is a lie perpetrated by a powerful and egotistical Newton. Newton contributed a great deal to calculus after learning of Leibniz already published works, perhaps more than Leibniz himself, but Newton did not invent it. Calculus was born in the mind of Leibniz alone, and the ideas were already fully formed, mathematically proven, and published a year before Newton proposed his flawed theory of infinitesimals.

Newton has plenty of brilliant works. But he isn't a god, and when it comes to calculus he pretty much stole an equal position on the stage with Leibniz that is undeserved.

lensch said...

Tony C - This is really off-topic, but have you read Leibniz? He is just as fuzzy as Newton; maybe he ia tiny bit clearer. Calculus wasn't really put on a firm footing until Weierstrass in the 19th century. When you read Leibniz, sometimes you're not sure if you're reading math or philosophy. Certainly he had no understanding of what a limit was. The first def of limit was due to Bolzano about 1800.

Tony C. said...

@joelpt:

As an example of asset-based economic growth: Several years ago a friend inherited some shares in a real-estate asset worth $150K. The shares were the result of an 80 year accumulation on the part of her grandmother. I helped her sell her share to fellow beneficiaries at a fair price, and she used her $150K to buy a new car and a house.

These are purchases that count as economic growth. Although it is not a steady drip-drip-drip, on aggregate people tend to spend something like 5% of their assets each year; although for individuals it occurs in widely separated bursts of 25% or 50% or (like my friend) nearly 100%.

Psychology also backs this up; if your net worth is a million, a $10,000 investment in a risky venture is not a huge risk, it is 1% of your assets. You don't want to squander it, but you aren't compelled to skip a great investment opportunity by fear of losing everything you own.

Simple accumulation of lasting assets increases the amount of buying and selling.

Population growth does too, or more specifically, population density. Put enough people together and trade increases non-linearly. This is because more people make it more likely you can find somebody that likes your work, and more people make small specialty niches viable: In a town of 50, you can't make a living selling beaded necklaces. In a town of 50,000 you can. Not because the percentage of demand has risen, but because the absolute size of the market for beaded necklaces has grown to a size that supports one full time worker.

lensch said...

hosertohoosier - Hi, you quote from my comment then say nothing about the quote, but talk about my cross country comparison. First of all we agree. I'm not saying higher taxes alway produce growth; I'm saying higher taxes do not always inhibit growth. As you believe, it's more complicated. On the other hand, the examples you quote do not seem to apply to the countries I looked at during the decade 1995 - 2005.

Matt Brubeck said...

It's easy to look at this chart and see "the rich getting richer" or "the poor getting poorer" during particular periods. But it's dangerous to talk about changes in these quintiles as though they represent changes by "typical" individuals in the respective groups. Often the changes are partly explained by changes in the composition of the groups.

For example, measured real household income declined in many periods of the 20th century even though real per capita income has increased. Why? Because the average household has shrunk as people spend more years living single. Household income should never be used to make comparisons across periods of time where household composition has changed substantially.

Immigration is another example of compositional change. When a poor person comes to the United States, the average income of the bottom quintile can decrease even if no one gets any poorer. What's actually happening is that you're now sampling a different, larger population. It's like thinking a disease has gotten worse when it's actually the diagnosis rate that's gotten better.

To draw the sorts of conclusions you're implying would require a correctly-designed observational study, in which the same individuals are surveyed at the beginning and end of each period.

The bottom-line conclusions may still be true, but I hate to see these measurement problems ignored, especially since you as a statistician know better.

hosertohoosier said...

"It's easy to look at this chart and see "the rich getting richer" or "the poor getting poorer" during particular periods. But it's dangerous to talk about changes in these quintiles as though they represent changes by "typical" individuals in the respective groups. Often the changes are partly explained by changes in the composition of the groups."

Excellent points. I remember eyeballing those numbers and trying to square them with positive GDP per capita growth in the US.

The problem is that we aren't following the same people through time. Take the baby boomers - they haven't been getting poorer, they have been getting richer, which is why they have been moving up to progressively higher income quartiles, as younger generations enter the other ones.

The real question we should be asking is - is the lifetime expected income of a carpenter the same? More? Less? Than it was before, and under whose presidency did it change?

I also wonder how the Census Bureau deals with pensioners.

Perhaps a better measure of how the worst are doing (or at least, of how many people are not "well off" would be to measure the percentage of people living below the poverty line.

1961-1968 (JFK/LBJ): 21.9->12.1
1969-1977 (Nixon/Ford): 12.1->11.6
1977-1980 (Carter): 11.6->14
1981-1988 (Reagan): 14->13
1989-1992 (Bush I): 13->15.1
1993-2000 (Clinton): 15.1->11.3
2001-2007 (Bush II): 11.3->12.5

This does paint a similar but less dramatic picture than the one in Nate's graph. It does show that the most important reductions in poverty came out of the War on Poverty, while changes since then have been minor in comparison.

What about another good measure of inequality - the GINI coefficient (lower is more equal).

In 1947, GINI was .376
Truman: -.017
Eisenhower: +.015
JFK/LBJ: -.025
Nixon/Ford: +.014
Carter: +.006
Reagan: +.031
Bush: +.028
Clinton: +.004
Bush II: -.003
In 2007, GINI was .432

1. There are strongly partisan trends in inequality (Bush II being the main exception).
2. It looks like, ceteris paribus, since the 70's, politicians have been powerless to stop rising inequality even when they really wanted to (as did Carter, Clinton and Bush II).
3. Sometimes growth is a great equalizer, other times (as is the case now) it is not. Think about the industries that have grown fastest in the past 15 years. Do you need a college degree to participate in that boom? Yes.

HCC said...

"This can certainly tells us something valuable, but if the goal is to look after the economic well-being of the least well-off, it is probably better to look instead at how the least well-off are performing relative to themselves"

No. The only useful thing in that case would be to look at how the least well-off are performing relative to the cost of living.

Andrew Grangaard said...

> whack because their are too many

this should read, "there are too many."

Nat said...

It seems to me that Thomas Frank needs to write a follow up called 'What's the Matter With Manhattan (the One in New York, Not Kansas)' since wealthy Americans seem to vote against their economic self interest.

Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
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