1.08.2009

What Are the Chances of a Depression?

The answer to the question in the headline, of course, depends on just who you ask.

According to a USA Today/Gallup poll conducted last month, 35 percent of Americans think that a "depression" -- which the poll defines as "an economic downturn that is much more severe than most recessions and would last several years" -- is very likely, and another 39 percent think it's at least somewhat likely.

This, however, is a relatively vague definition of a "depression". If, for example, real GDP declined by 4 percent in 2009, a further 2 percent in 2010, and then held steady in 2011 before finally beginning to recover in 2012, that would be by far the worst economic slump since World War II and would meet the USA Today poll's definition of a depression. And there are various other signs and symptoms that we might describe as "depressionary". For example, if unemployment were to hit double digits, or there was a run on one or more major commercial banks, or there was severe price deflation on the order of, say, 4% for a couple of quarters, some people might consider those things to be evidence of a depression, and we'd begin to see the term thrown about more casually.

But there is a somewhat more precise definition of a depression (although by no means is it one universally agreed upon by economists): that is a 10 percent decline in real GDP over the course of a year or more. This is the definition that the predictions market Intrade uses. And the latest trade at Intrade just put the chances of a depression occurring at some point in 2009 at 40 percent -- or about ten times more likely than the odds that Norm Coleman prevails in his election lawsuit in Minnesota.



This is a shockingly high figure, both on its face and because I'm not sure that even the most pessimistic economists would place the chances of a sustained 10 percent decline in GDP at anywhere near 40 percent. The Wall Street Journal, in fact, just completed its monthly economic forecasting survey, a panel of 55 professional and academic economists. The most pessimistic forecast from among the 55 panel members is that the economy will decline by 2 percent in 2009, with the consensus forecast being exactly zero percent growth:



One can find room to criticize the composition of the Journal's panel: it probably does not contain enough liberal economists, and almost certainly does not contain enough what you might call nontraditional economists -- behaviorists or mathematicians or people that think, quote-unquote, "outside the box". Nevertheless, this represents quite a large difference of opinion with the Intrade forecast.

(A technical aside: the economy would meet the Intrade definition of a depression if it declines by 10 percent over any four consecutive quarters ending in 2009 -- for example, 4Q 2008 through 3Q 2008. So it's possible that you could have an Intrade depression even if the economy didn't decline by 10 percent in 2009 proper. The most pessimistic forecasts for quarterly decline in GDP in the Journal survey are 6.2 percent for 4Q 2008 and 5.0 percent for 1Q 2009, still far away from a sustained 10 percent decline in GDP over four consecutive quarters.)

The Journal and Intrade, of course, are not the only source of economic forecasts. The Congressional Budget Office expects GDP to decline by 2.2 percent (.pdf) in 2009 -- but this is explicitly if no stimulus package of any kind is passed. And then there is the stock market, which at its trough had declined by about 45 percent from its summer 2007 peak and is now at more like 35-40 off its peak. The market seems to have priced in a fairly steep recession -- but probably nothing like a depression (the DJIA declined by almost 90 percent from peak to trough in the 1930s).

So do these Intrade folks know something that the rest of us don't? And if not, where do they get off?

As you may know, I am not the biggest fan of Intrade, which I think is a terrific concept in theory but simply does not have the liquidity to sustain efficient prices in the short-run. This is especially true when it comes to the economy. If you thought we were headed toward the next Great Depression, you could make much, much more money by shorting industrial stocks than you could by betting on one at Intrade.

From what I understand about Intrade, however, a lot of the money that is to be made there comes from people who are trying to anticipate future price movements rather than the ultimate resolution of the contract. Say that I think the true chance of a depression is 4 percent, not 40 percent -- I should still buy depression contracts at 40 percent if I think I can sell them for 50 percent when the new jobs report comes out on Friday.

This characteristic is arguably true of all markets, of course, and it is one of the reasons that bubbles develop. But I'd guess that it's especially true of Intrade, where the ratio of fish to sharks (to borrow from poker terminology) is relatively high, as a lot of people participate in Intrade for recreation rather than for profit. To get a bit more technical about it, I'd guess that the possibility for "bubble profits" increases as some nonlinear function of the proportion of dumb money in a particular market, and that the possibility for bubble profits, moreover, tends to beget bubbles, producing some sort of condition of multiple equilbria.

What the Intrade traders may be betting on, in other words, is other traders becoming more pessimistic at some point between now and close of the contact -- a "pessimism bubble", if you will.

But here's the real question. Is there a risk of a "pessimism bubble" in the real economy? And if so, are the real markets and the professional forecasters adequately accounting for it?

What will happen, for instance, when the government releases its 4Q GDP estimate? It's going to be an ugly number: -2% if we're lucky, and maybe -6% or worse if we aren't. When this occurs, there will be an awful lot written about it. While the stock market has perhaps priced in this expectation, individual consumers and individual businesses perhaps have not. If they perceive the world as crashing all around them, they may behave in such a way as to actually beget such a catastrophe. We're already to the point where you can't read the food section or the sports section of the New York Times without reading about the recession.

The advance estimate of 4Q GDP is due out on the 30th, timing that intersects in interesting ways with the period during which the Congress is hoping to pass the stimulus package. The number the BEA announces will almost certainly be the worst figure since 1990, when the economy declined at an annualized rate of 3.0 percent in the fourth quarter, and will quite possibly be the worst since the first quarter of 1980, when the economy experienced a 6.6 percent decline. The headlines in the newspapers the next morning will be very grim. A good time for the stimulus to pass, arguably, would be within a few days of the BEA's announcement. Obama could hold an evening press conference after signing the stimulus bill, doing his best to allay the fears of a worried nation -- for fear itself is something we very much do have to fear.

120 comments

benintenn said...

Finally FIRST!!!!

Brad said...

Great post.

Now we need you to go out on a limb and actually give us YOUR prediction Nate.

Juris said...

@Nate: a thoughtful article. Thanks.

Typo: "This is characteristic is arguably true. . . ."" Cut the first "is".

wv: linip -- the batting order in October.

David said...

You're the hardest working man on the internets, Nate!

Now on to the unfinished Burrito Bracket!

Occasional Analysis said...

I'd suggest holding off on putting your savings into the contract on intrade as Nate suggests. The contract is highly ambiguous since it intrade are using the definition of adding up quarterly GDP figures. Since these GDP figures are calculated in terms of year on year falls the actual fall in GDP might need only to be 2.6%.

It's possible that the more obvious definition applies but Intrade haven't clarified this so the uncertainty probably explains the contract price.

John Emerson said...

A lot of economists have been surprised by the stuff that has already happened , and many of them (especially in the WSJ) put the best face on things when making public statement (to prevent the supposed "pessimism bubble"). The panel seems to be mostly anonymous, but if it's mostly made up of economists in finance and the business world they all have their own interests to protect. In short, I wouldn't take that poll especially seriously.

Krugman and DeLong seem very worried indeed, and the general feeling I get from independent econobloggers is that everyone's worried and no one knows what to expect. Some say that this is an unprecedented and completely unpredictable situation.

As far as the "more precise" definition -- there are various definitions of a depression, and people will be cherry-picking the definition that fits their political agendas. I don't think that it's a good idea to lock in on one of them as "more precise".

It looks now as though the argument is between those who think that this will be worse than anything since the Great Depression, but not quite a real depression, and those who think that this will be Great Depression II. Not much cheer there.

Michael said...

Great post, Nate!

Since you've been wading into economics and budgets lately, perhaps you'd like to do a piece on earmarks? McCain and like-minded senators are starting where he left off:

"McCain Picks Up Where He Left Off on Earmarks"

[...]The Arizona Republican was on familiar turf Wednesday inside the Senate television studio — nine weeks and one day after losing the presidential election to Barack Obama — pushing for earmark and lobbying overhauls alongside longtime legislative partner Russ Feingold , a Wisconsin Democrat.

Looking a bit worse for wear from the campaign trail — he needed help reading a passage in his statement and his eyes appeared watery — McCain has nonetheless returned to the legislative game he knows best.

“He’s engaged and ready to go,” said Sen. Tom Coburn , R-Okla., who is working on the earmark and lobbying legislation with McCain, Feingold and Missouri Democrat Claire McCaskill .[...]

McCain mustered a bit of his hallmark outrage for the occasion.

[...]“Our goal is not transparency. Our goal is elimination of earmarks,” he said. “There is no place for them in the process.”[...]

Brad said...

Another week of pretty good jobless claim numbers.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Initial-jobless-claims-fall-continuing/story.aspx?guid=%7B37696993-6E30-405B-A3D2-43F140B6EE1E%7D

Did companies takea break for the holidays, or is it getting better?

Juris said...

Some of my best friends are economists, but may I propose that in addition to the "index of leading indicators" somebody should construct an "index of misleading economists"?

This could be basedc on a stratified random sample of those "independent econoblogs" referred to above.

However, it would be interesting to contemplate whether such an expert panel would fall into the sharks or the fish category if they were to put their own money on the table.

scottdm said...

Most economists in the WSJ survey work for banks and are literally paid to be optimistic, so their views should be discounted even in the best of times.

More importantly, most economists use models that either don't go back far enough to include the volatile times of the 1930s or specifically exclude those years in order to have better accuracy in "normal" times. Either way, leaving out the data most relevant to the current situation makes the models useless.

Finally, in response to Brad's comments on the unemployment numbers: There is no real improvement going on here. The numbers are seasonally adjusted to take out the huge increase in temporary workers that usually happens in December (followed by huge layoffs in January). This year, there was no huge increase in December, so the seasonal adjustment made December look worse than it was. Of course, because there were fewer temp workers to lay off in January, the seasonal adjustment is making January look better than it actually is. The underlying reality is that the situation is getting worse at a steady pace.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Well, even though Intrade is not very accurate, I will admit the surprisingly high numbers for a Depression (which I had assumed to mean 2 successive quarters of negative growth) shocked the shit out of me.

There is alot of bad debt out there right now, and most economic indicators point to a massive decline in consumption. Since US consumption has been the driving force behind the economy for so long, that decline seems ominous enough. Obama's recent speeches about the deficit and how long it will take to set things right again also point to a period of frosty financial fucked-eppery. NPR's Planet Money hasn't had a show that offered good news since Lehman Brothers collapsed, and the sheer fact that a general audience even exists for programs about how the economy is doing indicates that people are jumpy. In good times, most people do not think about the economy at all. Aside from day-traders and people otherwise involved in the financial sector, the average working stiff rarely thinks about the prime rate, much less tunes into a radio show during their commute to work pondering what the Fed is going to do about it once it hits zero.

So yeah, even though Intrade is famously flawed, we are nonetheless phenomenally fucked for the foreseeable financial future.

Juris said...

Oh Waldorf, you're a salad of alliteration today!

Michael said...

Juris:

Some of my best friends are economists, but may I propose that in addition to the "index of leading indicators" somebody should construct an "index of misleading economists"?

Perfect! Nate, I have a new project for you. Check economists' predictions against the real numbers and produce an "economist error index" similar to the polling error index you used for the recent elections. Of course, it'll be a lot more difficult to produce, but at least some important predictions can be measured for degree of accuracy, so as to help us discount or pay more attention to current predictions.

Juris said...

@scottdm: Good point about the seasonal adjustment perhaps being incorrect.

I note that the Macy's year-to-year December figures were more favorable than "expected." I shopped a fair bit at Macy's this Christmas, but (as your comment would suggest) it was hard to find any help!

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

According to WIKI

"Generally, periods labeled depressions are marked by a substantial and sustained shortfall of the ability to purchase goods relative to the amount that could be produced using current resources and technology"

This can involve massive unemployment (25%), large-scale bank failures and extreme underutilization of capital. Times are bad right now and if NOTHING were done (as suggested by Supply-Side economics), then we could more easily slide into depression. This would be driven by credit NOT being given to credit-worthy companies and individuals, leading to a very small multiplier effect in the economy.

Joe The Fake Virginian said...
This post has been removed by the author.
mhz said...

Great post! Great picture!

So that was FDR not Winston Churchill hun? All these years I have associated that sentiment with Winston and now I discover it was actually FDR- HOW GREAT IS THAT

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5057/

Vinny said...

This is the definition that the predictions market Intrade uses. And the latest trade at Intrade just put the chances of a depression occurring at some point in 2009 at 40 percent -- or about ten times more likely than the odds that Norm Coleman prevails in his election lawsuit in Minnesota.

This made me laugh for some reason.

joel said...

I don`t think we could really have a 30`s style depression but possibley a mini-depression with double-digit unemployment and no growth for several years.
If Obama`s stimulus doesn`t reap benifits by 2010 the gop will make big gains in the senate and if things still are bad in 2012 the republicans could regain total control of the govt.
So Obama has the chance to go down as a great president that helped stopped a horrible economic collapse or just another failed 1 term president setting up another long run of republican rule. The public is patient but for just so long.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Can PECOTA be modified to predict the GDP?

Brother Wolf said...

Hey Nate

Here is a little project for you. I know your reputation is based on solid number crunching so your right to stay out of the economic guessing game - BUT - there is a long pubic record of past guessing by economists and I would love a detailed look of the records of some of these guys. What did they predict in the past and how did they fair?

I think you will find that many economists are just cheerleaders for the economic elite and not really safe predictors of future economic events. Maybe this research has already been done else where and you could just summarize it?

Love your work.
If you have a chance check out my storytelling site

Statler N Waldorf said...

Off topic, but depressing, so I guess this fits in with a depression discussion:

Terrorism in Seattle

Michael said...

Brother Wolf posted thusly:

"there is a long pubic record of past guessing by economists"

I couldn't have said it better, myself. Pubic indeed!

Tripp said...

Why do the people on intrade disagree with the, ahem, professionals? The "professionals" have rightfully lost all credibility. They are either incompetent, scam artists, or shills, take your pick. I see the situation as similar to when the Nader Consumer Crusaders were created to counteract all the marketing BS at that time. We need something like Investment Crusaders. To date not nearly enough of these self-important blowhards has fallen on his sword. A few have committed suicide, but only a small number so far.

Will there be a pessimism bubble? Probably. People usually overreact to things.

Are the "pros" factoring this in? Not on your life.

chad said...

Love the caption under the photo. My hometown newspaper has been running a series of stories about people who were alive during the Great Depression. They have been using that photo everyday for months now. Must be the only one left.

I heard a comedian on the radio the other day who said that there can't be another Great Depression because all those people lived in black and white and we live in color. He finished it off by saying that we can't go through a Great Depression in hi-def. So true, imagine people 20 years from now watching soup lines in 2009 on their 100" LCDs.

Another terrific article Nate, great job.

Kennyb said...

Off topic (but on topic for 538):

Missouri Republican Senator Kit Bond has announced that he is retiring in 2010 and will not seek reelection. So that's Mel Martinez, Sam Brownback and him, and maybe Kay Bailey Hutchinson is she runs for guv'ner.

Care for guesses on the Republican side? House Minority Whip Roy Blunt? Former Sen. Jim Talent? Rep. Jo Ann Emerson?

Linky: http://www.kspr.com/news/local/37268779.html

Redshift said...

I think the polls reflect the fact that while people intellectually know that things change in the long run, in the near term they assume that things will keep going the same direction they are now. It's the same psychology that feeds bubbles.

Kennyb said...

Again OT for the post, but not for 538...

You DO know what today is, right? It's 538 Day! The day that Congress conducts the Electoral Vote count.

Happy 538 Day!

JesseLivermore said...

The reason the Intrade depression contract is trading so high is that it is terribly, terribly written. If you look at the fine print, they will calculate whether the economy has contracted 10% by adding together the quarterly numbers. The annualized quarterly numbers. So if each quarter comes in at -3.0%, for a total annual change of -3.0%, they would add 3+3+3+3 and decide we are in a Depression. The contract is really about whether we'll have a 2.5% drop in GDP, and as such is terribly underpriced.

By the way, regarding the suspicious betting patterns you linked to: it's pretty clear that this was an institutional client hedging its exposure. Some bookies maintain accounts at intrade to manage their risk exposure. One of them offered a bet that Obama would drop out. Some dumbass put down a series of large bets on this. The book wanted to hedge their exposure, so they bet on Hillary and McCain and shorted Obama. They bet the way they did, creating huge price changes and getting worse odds than they could have, because their concern was hedging exposure immediately, rather than getting the best price. This also explains why they only bet on the contracts dealing with individuals, rather than the contracts for the Democratic or Republican parties.

http://wiserthanthecrowd.blogspot.com

Mark A. Sadowski said...

I have the photo at the beginning of the blog hanging on my wall. The WSJ's economists rightfully should be ignored. A better source of economic forecasts is the Federal Reserve's Survey of Professional Forecasters. The link is here:

http://www.philadelphiafed.org/research-and-data/real-time-center/survey-of-professional-forecasters/

I make my own seat of the pants forecasts (I am finsishing a doctorate in applied macroeconomics) based on this survey. Their forecast for 2009 GDP is -0.2% with the total decline in GDP at -1%. It is undoubtable optimistic. The first hint of how far off they will be is the forecast of payroll losses and inflation for last quarter. The survey predicts payroll losses of just over 200,00 a month and with the final numbers due out tomorrow it will likely be closer to 500,000. But the biggest problem is their inflation numbers. We have two out of the three months already and their predictions are now impossible. For example CPI deflation is forecast to be 2.6% with core CPI rising 2% (annual rates). My own estimates put CPI deflation at 10.8% and core CPI at 0%.

I am currently predicting a 6% annual rate of decline in GDP this quarter with a 4% overall decline in GDP by the end of next year. My prediction for 2009 GDP is that it will decline by 2.6%. Recovery will begin in 2010. None of this satisfies the definitions of recession mentioned by Nate.

There is another, more reasonable definition offered by Brad Delong however. According to him you have a depression if you have one month of 12% unemployment or 3 years of double digit unemployment. My current forecast calls for a peak rate of 10.8% unemployment in early 2012, and double digit unemployment in all of 2011-2013. In other words I am forecasting a "Brad Delong" Depression but only just barely.

Making good economic forecasts is difficult. In some sense economics is a little like meterology. It's very scientific, but forecasts are difficult because there are just too many variables.

Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Statler N Waldorf said...

Kit Bond Drops Out

Yet another Republican retirement looms

Siobhan said...

@Statler N Waldorf - I just came here to see if Nate said anything about that yet. I was under the impression that the seat was competitive, though not a cakewalk.

Michael (mbw) said...

Statler- thanks for your many excellent recent posts and especially for passing along that great news re MO. I think Robin Carnahan could have beaten Bond, but now the odds that she will win are really increased.

Abby said...

I wish you were a bit clearer about which rates are annualized and which are quarterly drops. And are they compounded or all compared to peak GDP?

Dan said...

Everyone seems to miss the main difference between the two, recessions are economic phenomena, and Depressions are political.

It has been consistently proven that the Great Depression was caused by the wrong actions of the Federal Reserve and the Roosevelt administration. Another misconception is that WW2 got the US out of the depression, which is true in only that when the government started focusing on war that is began to abandon it's economic interference. Now no one is blaming the people who caused the depression because they just didn't know what they were doing, but if people in the same position today make the same mistakes then they should be institutionalized because they are clearly insane.

Jeff said...

A couple of items...
Unemployment numbers are useless for gauging macroeconomic trends, as they only count people *actively* looking for work. They do not at all count people who are underemployed (a financial analyst working at Burger King, for example), or people who have given up looking for work.
--
Secondly, anyone who thinks that the economy might grow in the next 3 quarters is on some incredible drugs. I work in maritime shipping, and have seen most import and export volumes drop by at least 40% if not more. The only commodities even somewhat "holding their own" are the consumables and foodstuffs. Construction materials are nearly non-existent. Furniture has dropped by over 50%. Electronics have all but disappeared.
The American public is buckling down for a very long and hard recession/depression. 2009 will suck without a doubt. The only real question at this point is how badly it will suck, and who will lose their job in the process.
----
Laissez-faire economics only work when you completely discount the impact of greed on the marketplace. When you add greed in, the only thing predictable is tht things will get out of control at some point, and will turn south very quickly. If people can make money, they will find ways to make more money. Eventually, their only concern is making more money, regardless of the cost. Once you hit that point, all you have to do is look at 2008 for examples of how that story ends.

WV: Asibeab - I am fluent in Asibeab.

Peter Wolf said...

@Dan

"It has been consistently proven that the Great Depression was caused by the wrong actions of the Federal Reserve and the Roosevelt administration."

Roosevelt came to power in 1933 yes?

The Great Depression started in 1929 didn't it?

So how did Roosevelt's Administration cause it exactly?

Mrs B said...

I think I'm shifting my position on this depression stuff. Everything that has been said and done so far seems to presume that what we should be doing is working to restore the economy to boom times i.e. more consumption. I'm not sure that is the right way at all. Shouldn't we be looking at a different way of living? You know, less reliance on material things to make you happy, less waste, a sustainable life style, a fairer distribution of food, water and other resources across the planet etc etc?
Not only that, but also the world's population is increasing rapidly while climate change is happening (oh yes it is - the evidence is overwhelming unless you have your GOP head up your backside). Things can't just carry on cosily as they were before for those of us in the industrialised west. My prediction is that we have reached one of those transition periods in world history and that the next 25 years are going to be a bumpy ride while people adjust to a new scenario - a decline in European/US power and influence; more fighting between factions in all sorts of nations and between all sorts of nations; sharp polarisation of politics, with more fundamentalist religion and more militant atheism too. And lots of people with their heads firmly in the sand pretending everything is fine, with their cheap burgers in one hand and their TV remote in the other.

Peter Wolf said...

hmmm...just reading through the high quality (ahem) site of wikipedia...anyway, regarding the Great Depression, one sentence stood out

"Although its causes are still uncertain, the basic cause was a sudden loss of confidence in the economic future"

So my question would be - why exactly is Obama talking about double digit unemployment?

mhz said...

MarkA
Thanks for the post. I like the last analogy.

Some moving targets are harder to hit than others.

I know there is lab and experimental work being done on "behavioral" economy. (e.g. "Money is Material" Science Vol 314 Nov.2006). Is there any work that does a good job addressing the possible and probable magnitude(s) of the effects of phenomena like"pessimism bubbles" etc on the economy? Can mass behavioral "over reactions" really cause economic devastation? Or are long periods of unregulated "money changing" the most common and high-impact cause of these kinds of economic crises? I use "money changing" for lack of a correct technical term. I think it fits. Though I recognize that it is -well-not particularly neutral:)

Jeff said...

@ Peter Wolf-
Obama is talking about double-digit unemployment for 2 reasons:
1. He is being honest and forthcoming. Better to be expecting bad news, rather than to be surprised by it.
2. If the double-digit unemployment does *not* materialize... he looks very good, and the Dems can take credit for it.

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

WV: Trypirr - The news today is so odd it is rather trypirr.

Peter Wolf said...

@Jeff

I'm sure you are correct in your assumptions but 2) especially would mean risking a worse economy in exchange for some potential political credit late on - I realise he's not an altruist but that's a little too nakedly political for my liking given that the cost/benefit doesn't mean it's necessarily going to help him.....

JackRussell said...

One thing seems clear - Obama is taking actions to try and "fix" things so that we can continue on as before. And while the amount of bad debt out there is staggering, eventually the problem will pass (albeit with a lot of pain).

My greater concern is that capitalism essentially requires growth to succeed. Yet we live on a planet that has a finite size, and eventually our demands on resources will exceed the ability of the planet to provide them. And once we reach this point, it seems likely that the economy will crash and contract, along with a reduction in the overall human population. This process could take decades or even a century, and life won't be fun at all. Unfortunately this isn't an abstract concern - there are many who believe that we are roughly at that apex right now, and that in the years and decades to come we will see nothing but misery and hardship.

stewarjt said...

First, how do you define depression? If we're going to have a debate about how likely one is then we have to know what it is.

Second, no one knows the future. So any debate about whether there will or won't be a depression is a pointless waste of time.

Good luck with all of that!

Jeff said...

@ JackRussel -
Every 25-30 years, the world economy has a paradigm shift based on the demands of the marketplace. In the 70s and 80s, the market transitioned to a more information-based economy, along with more services (versus more manufacturing). Now, I think it is time for the market to transition to a more sustainable economy, and one less focused on consumption, and more focused on what is returned, or can be re-used.

Peter Wolf said...

@Mure Rider

yawn. Can't you copy and paste something shorter next time, that I don't have to skip as it's so dull and boring?

Peter Wolf said...

oops - Mure Rider - that was a typo.

Was still a very boring copy and paste anyway.

Tyler said...

Breaking news, just in time to change the Senate rankings once again. Missouri Sen. Kit Bond just announced he won't run for re-election in 2010. This one should be interesting.

http://www.semissourian.com/article/20090108/NEWS03/701099998/1001

Myron said...

JackRussell-

That's why the smart people (like Stephen Hawking) have been saying for some time now that humans need to start colonizing other planets/moons, etc. There is no other alternative. The right wing religious nutjobs are still convinced "end-of-days" is near and are willing to let it happen, so maybe they don't want space travel to happen.

It is essential to pump money into NASA and the Mars project now - yes, even in hard times. The population boom is just beginning. Resources will be gone in a couple generations. Up is the only way to go.

Middle Man said...

Nate- few things. First, Intrade's definition of Depression is meaningful, the other one laughable (and betraying of our society's ignorance of truly tough times). Second, the Journal panel result was entirely perfunctory, predictable and devoid of any implication for central tendency, let alone variance, for reasons I'm sure you would appreciate (basically, Dana Johnson has very little to gain from decreasing her forecast, and much to lose, not least her job. The most important forecasting skill is forecasting the consensus- god love the forces of confirmity of acadamia). Lastly, as to Intrade, there are very good reasons for it to overestimate the probability of Depression, namely, it is a great hedge. People should be willing to pay substantially over the odds for it, as they are for all insurance. On top of all that, this latest crisis has illustrated that the instincts of the masses are often much more insightful than all the experts on Wall Stret combined (though one must concede, this is an exceedingly low bar...).

Peter Wolf said...

@Myron

There is a sufficient amount of renewable energy potential that you could switch to a scenario where our energy needs were sustainably met. Go a bit further and you can create plastics using some of the biofuel principles. With sufficient energy the main demands are raw materials, and that's where you hit a limiting supply, especially of some rare metals.

I'm not saying it would be easy, bnut it is theoretically possible.

JackRussell said...

There was a time when I would have agreed with Hawking about the need to colonize space.

But I fear it is far too late for that, and people underestimate how harsh the environment is even on a planet like Mars.

Mrs B said...

538 now at 60.9% of the votes cast for best political coverage in the weblog awards. Share of the vote still rising.
This is GOOD NEWS FOR .... somebody.

Redshift said...

It has been consistently proven that the Great Depression was caused by the wrong actions of the Federal Reserve and the Roosevelt administration.

Translation: It's all the rage on wingnut blogs and conservative media to declare that the New Deal caused the Great Depression, and "prove" it by cherry-picking statistics about 1937. Nobel economists have repeatedly presented straightforward longer-term economic statistics that show this is obviously false.

It's basic wingnut logic: We don't like the New Deal, and conservative economic policy must be correct even though it's run the economy into a ditch again. So start with the assumption that it's good and the New Deal is bad, and look for evidence that supports that conclusion, and ignore evidence that contradicts it. It's a lot like how creationists look at fossils.

Jason Ruspini said...

The liquidity with Intrade is a problem. It looks like the contract went from 32% to 40% on 550 lots, or less than a $2200 stake. But apart from liquidity and regulatory access issues, these contracts are less conducive to bubbles in the sense that they are bound by 0 and 100 and settle on an objective criterion at a specific time, unlike stocks and other assets.

Myron said...

Awww, poor millionaires......boo-hoo for all the millionaire male-riders out there....

....sniff..sniff....

Oh, wait, didn't they just have their great president, W, running their great economy (and tax plan) the last 8 years?

How did that turn out again?

Peter Wolf said...

@Jack Russell.

You can't colonise Mars without great cost - I mean, what's the point of habitat domes apart from for limited scale science missions? To colonise you would have to go full hog - geoengineering of the entire planet. Now that is theoretically possible but at vast expense and you destroy what's currently there (you start by using a massively enhanced greenhouse effect, probably using lots of sulphur hexafluoride or similar to warm the planet. This leads to more gases in the atmosphere which helps warm it further).

All a long way away anyway...

Redshift said...

Dan:
Now no one is blaming the people who caused the depression because they just didn't know what they were doing, but if people in the same position today make the same mistakes then they should be institutionalized because they are clearly insane.

Funny thing -- after the Great Depression hit, financial regulations (like the Glass-Steagal Act) were put in place so that many of the same problems wouldn't happen again. And they didn't for seventy years, until anti-regulation conservatives decided we didn't need them any more and repealed them. After a few years of buildup -- surprise! -- the problems those regulations prevented caused economic disaster.

So I presume from your statement that you would support institutionalizing the Bush economic team, Phil Gramm, John McCain, and many others, since they are clearly insane, right?

Myron said...

Peter-

The one item that complicates that scenario is something relatively few people know about. In the next few decades, we will have made significant breakthroughs in cell regeneration research. Look up "Resveratrol".

This is just one compound on the forefront of this research. Molecular biologists are very, very close to making human lifespans double or triple in duration. Now, in time, there will be no "natural death", your cells will regenerate and replenish and people will not age.

Then, mankind has a very serious problem - procreation will become essentially outlawed or reduced- or restricted to the very few.

Again, there is no alternative - we are a virus and the universe is essentially our host. Time will tell if we will be a successful virus, or something akin to the dinosaurs.

Anonymous said...

OT for this post:

Can you do something on the opposition to/ramifications of health care reform? Specifically I found this article puzzling. If somebody is making a profit, does the American government have a responsibility to ensure they can always make that profit, even at the expense of its citizens? The conservatives seem to have outdone themselves on this; they are opposing competition (against a public system) on the basis that the inefficent will be driven from the market place.

Bear in mind that I come from Canada, a magical place where health care is a right, and not a commodity.

mhz said...

@Mrs B

I think/hope the stimulus package and the infrastructure upgrade could bring us much closer to this "new way" of living you are talking about.
I am not a big "technology can solve all of our problems" kind of person." That said I believe that Steven Chu and Obama are serious about makingmany of the comforts people in the industrialized west have come to depend on (relatively stable and constant sources of energy, water, and food) much more "efficient" here at home. The innovations we develop here in the US are likely to make those "essential" comforts more prevalent in other parts of the world.

The investment we, the United States of America, make right now in energy technology could be as significant as-say-the development of the printing press- though I sort of wonder if it could even rival emergence of photosynthesis at some level.

What we do right now with the resources we have at hand is very important.

As a matter of principle and practice the rate of material resource consumption and material waste production that occurs in the US should decrease. And the current US rates cannot be adopted by more regions of the globe with out serious ecological (and political) consequences.

Nevertheless new energy technologies might be able to support a very comfortable standard of living around the globe even in the face of reduced consumption and waste.
More is not necessarily better. Anyone with a few extra pounds knows that!!
When ever I hear Capitalism and Growth together I think-"CANCER"

There are alternatives.

Peter Wolf said...

@Myron

If you look at the westernized countries the population growth rate has already come down - to an average of pretty close to 1 kid per person. So you'd see a growth in total population but not an increase in young.

I can't see it happening for a good long time though, and when it does it'll be the wealthy that get it first.

Mrs B said...

MR, have you never heard the quote about taxes being the price you pay for living in a civilised society?

Peter Wolf said...

@Mrs B

exactly right. Or would Mule Rider rather live in say Somalia? No taxes there....

Peter Wolf said...

"One little tidbit nobody is talking about. The share of taxes paid by middle-class America on percentage terms actually went down during the Bush presidency."

and? What does that prove? What happened to their share of the massively increased debt?

Cugel said...

The real problem is jobs. Unemployment is literally TWICE the official average because the unemployment statistics are "fudged" for political purposes to be lower than realistic, ignoring those who've given up looking for work and those former executives now working full time as Walmart greeters.

Unemployment statistics are also LAGGING INDICATORS because companies don't lay people off instantly as demand declines. Those being laid off now are companies responding to economic conditions from last Spring, not right now.

So, while Obama is talking about 2.5 million new jobs being created in the next 4 years, if we're on pace to shed 250,000-500,000 jobs per quarter (not unreasonable) just to keep pace with the sinking economy, the stimulus package would have to provide something like 5 million jobs over then next 2 years.

Not all those jobs ought to be government funded, but clearly the ONLY sector of the economy that can possibly grow in the next few quarters is federal employment. Everything else will depend on that sector.

In short, we need massive and immediate government stimulus, just like the New Deal.

In light of this it's necessary to look at the lying of the right-wing which is now gearing up it's propaganda machine to argue that government stimulus prolonged the Great Depression and "of course we can't have another New Deal."

The truth, based on U.S. Census data:

The Forgotten Math: Pre-WWII New Deal Saw Biggest Drop In Unemployment Rate in American History
ROOSEVELT PRE-WWII NEW DEAL
1932 Unemployment Rate: 23.6% (12.8 million total unemployed)
1940 Unemployment Rate: 14.6% (8.1 million total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change: -9.0
Total unemployment percentage change: -36.7%

ROOSEVELT WWII
1941 Unemployment Rate: 9.9% (5.5 million total unemployed)
1944 Unemployment Rate: 1.2% (670,000 total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change: -8.7
Total unemployment percentage change: -87.9%

TRUMAN
1945 Unemployment Rate: 1.9% (1.0 million total unemployed)
1952 Unemployment Rate: 3.0% (1.8 million total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change: +1.1
Total unemployment percentage change: +81.0%

EISENHOWER
1953 Unemployment Rate: 2.9% (1.8 million total unemployed)
1960 Unemployment Rate: 5.5% (3.8 million total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change: +2.6%
Total unemployment percentage change: +110.03%

KENNEDY
1961 Unemployment Rate: 6.7% (4.7 million total unemployed)
1963 Unemployment Rate: 5.7% (4.0 million total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change: -1.0%
Total unemployment percentage change: -13.6%

JOHNSON
1964 Unemployment Rate: 5.2% (3.7 million total unemployed)
1968 Unemployment Rate: 3.6% (2.8 million total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change: -1.6%
Total unemployment percentage change: -25.6%

NIXON
1969 Unemployment Rate: 3.5% (2.8 million total unemployed)
1974 Unemployment Rate: 5.6% (5.1 million total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change: +2.1%
Total unemployment percentage change: +82.0%

FORD
1975 Unemployment Rate: 8.5% (7.9 million total unemployed)
1976 Unemployment Rate: 7.7% (7.4 million total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change: -0.8%
Total unemployment percentage change: -6.6%

CARTER
1977 Unemployment Rate: 7.1% (6.9 million total unemployed)
1980 Unemployment Rate: 7.1% (7.6 million total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change: 0.0
Total unemployment percentage change: +9.24%

REAGAN
1981 Unemployment Rate: 7.6% (8.2 million total unemployed)
1988 Unemployment Rate: 5.5% (6.7 million total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change: -2.1%
Total unemployment percentage change: -19.0%

BUSH I
1989 Unemployment Rate: 5.3% (6.5 million total unemployed)
1992 Unemployment Rate: 7.5% (9.6 million total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change: +2.2
Total unemployment percentage change: +47.2%

CLINTON
1993 Unemployment Rate: 6.9% (8.9 million total unemployed)
2000 Unemployment Rate: 4.0% (5.6 million total unemployed)
Unemployment Rate Change -2.9
Total unemployment percentage change: -36.3%


Whether we go into a real depression will depend largely on whether we can create enough jobs to sustain the consumer economy -- and that will require a massive and sustained stimulus job creation program. And to do that will require telling the right-wing "free-traders" to sit down and shut the hell up!

Your free market deregulation B.S. has gotten us into this crisis. We're NOT going to listen to any more lies and distortions from you!

Dan said...

@ Myron

Yes I do, and I somewhat regret that people don't euthanize the insane anymore and wish we would make and exception in their case.

Mrs B said...

well said Cugel, but you don't imagine mere FACTS will change their minds about free market deregulation do you?

Tripp said...

Libertarian philosophy demonstrates a retarded emotional development and the capacity of the human mind to believe fantasy over reality.

There is no doubt the world will transition to a sustainable economy. We have no choice. And sustainable energy will supply our needs. But the carrying capacity of the Earth using sustainable energy is about 3 Billion, plus or minus.

Half of us will die and not be replaced. People are already starving due to food shortages, and this will only get worse. The US is already building its barricades and detention centers.

These things are happening but not only do people not see them, people do not want to see them.

This will not happen tomorrow, of course, it will take place over the next twenty or thirty years.

We will do what we can but it will be like trying to stop the tide.

juvanya said...

While the stock market has perhaps priced in this expectation, individual consumers and individual businesses perhaps have not. If they perceive the world as crashing all around them, they may behave in such a way as to actually beget such a catastrophe. We're already to the point where you can't read the food section or the sports section of the New York Times without reading about the recession.

I'm telling you this recession is a media-induced fear. Everyone was fine until the media started fearmongering and then everyone starts to cut back for no reason at all.

Tripp said...

OHmiGod - you have a master's in economics and you are proud of that? At this time?! When the religion of economics has shown, for all the world, how incredibly wrong it is?

Wow. You are like some cultist bragging about having a Masters of Divinity after Jonestown.

But please, pretty please, tell me again how you or your ilk deserve anything but scorn and revulsion.

Tripp said...

Mule,

Um, no, I'm not going to do that. But you did say something I agree with:

And I think literally taking from those who do work and giving to those who don't is a recipe for disaster.


I think where we differ is I consider the ultra-rich, the upper class, those who by definition do NOT work for their money, are the people who are currently collecting the taxes from the rest of us. Or at least they are looting our treasury. And setting us against each other.

Tripp said...

Mule,

And pardon me if I incorrectly labeled you a Libertarian. Your rhetoric about getting the government out of one's life led me to that conclusion, and I apologize if I was incorrect.

I gotta say, though, that your immediate name-calling and potty mouth leave me fairly skeptical that you are emotionally mature.

You sound more like a whiny teen-aged boy than a mature man.

Mrs B said...

MR, what areas of economics did you specialise in?

Tripp said...

Mule,

(Economics is) math and science with a little statistical modeling sprinkled in.

Oh. Well there's the problem. Where is the judgment and the knowledge of human behavior? You know what they say about a little knowledge . . .

So tell me again why you (economists) were allowed the keys to the world's economies? It seems that was a very reckless thing to do.

Tripp said...

Mule,

Fair enough. No offense but I think you just need to grow up a little. Still, being young and naive is no crime, no more than being old and cynical is.

I do think you'd come off better without the cussing, but obviously you may take that or leave it.

Dan said...

@ Mule

Who is John Galt?

Tim said...

Tripp,

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Mule Rider is right re: economics.

For many years I thought the same thing as you: economists are a bunch of idiots who don't know anything and exist only to justify their own worldview - and there are many economists who fit that description.

Good economists, however, are much more like social scientists wherein they look at data and develop theories and, depending on the specific model, may even be able to formulate an experiment to test the theory.

It's unfortunate that some "economists" do it backwards and view the data through an ideological lens much like "creationist 'scientists'".

It's not economists as a bulk group that fueled the housing bubble and drove the economy to the ground; there were in fact many (even 'conservative' economists) who thought the deregulation was marginal at best - for many of the reasons we're now seeing.

Myron said...

Dan- Yes, I agree and we should first start with mule crap.

It's funny when obviously mentally handicapped repubs come on this board, lie about everything including their non-existant degrees, and spew random insults - as if that wins them arguments.

There is a reason why mule crap is a xenophobic nutjob that doesn't want "furriners" commenting on US policy. The clown feels cornered, since the last bastion of the FAILED neo-conservative ideology resides here, in narrow minded knuckle-draggers who still support good ole W. All of Europe, Asia, South America, Africa, Australia, and even Canada have rejected Bush and his idiotic policies. Mule crap can't stand the most evident TRUTH - he and his ideology are utter FAILURES.

That's why he name calls, makes up BS, and is wholly ignorant of reality. We should pity the poor shmuck.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Well, fuck cursing, that's all I gotta say. All those shitty four-letter words just make you look like some motherfucking asshole. I mean, of all the possible cock-ups, how could any jackass even bitch about pissing all over his own post with a goddamn assload of fucked up curse words?

I mean, what the fuck do you think this is, Frredom of Speech or something?

You know, only in one of those fucking democracies would anybody think they can just use any language they want to express an opinion. I mean, fuck, some words are just obscene, you know?

You know what I think an obscenity is? Children without healthcare, families that have to choose between heating oil and food during the winter, a prison system that jails more citizens per capita than any other nation on earth, teachers that live in homless shelters because we don't pay them enough, sports figures and celebrities that make boatloads of cash while soldiers, firemen, policemen and teachers make jack shit. What's obscene is that we can always afford bombs but we can't afford to house the homeless or feed the hungry. Offensive is the fact that we abandon our elders and former soldiers without decent medical care, housing, and a comfortable life to reward them for what they have done for us. Offensive is that some Americans are more Equal than others. What's obscene is that women make less than men do for the same kind of work, gays can't marry, adopt, or join the military, Big Pharma can push drugs on prime time TV advertisements but god help you if we catch you with a small amount of marijuana in your possession. What's obscene is the lack of money for education and endless amounts of money for Wall Street. Obscenity is the influence of religion upon the secular state. What's obscene is that we have the balls to call this a Democracy without gagging on the word.

Hate speech is obscene. That's language that is used to harm somebody. The word fuck doesn't hurt anyone.

Grow the fuck up America. You're too old to be embarrassed when anyone mentions sex or bodily functions. You shouldn't be embarrassed by nature. You should be embarrassed by your hypocrisy.

Will somebody please bless America?

holy crapo said...

Look 'Mule Rider' you ain't the real Mule Rider so fuck off!

Leitmotiv said...

Too bad that picture from the depression was staged.

Iconoclast421 said...

The contraction has already occured. The die has been cast. Look at auto sales! It will take an increase in year-over-year auto sales of more than 5% for FIVE years just to get us back to 2007 numbers! Americans cant do math anymore so they cant understand how a 30% loss requires a 60% gain to undo! How in blazes do we get a 60% gain? We dont...

The only way to prevent the loss in GDP is to inflate the hell out of the economy, which may not even be possible. There is NO way that real production, ie the REAL economy is going to expand beyond 2007/early 2008 levels. Oil production is shutting down. Tankers are being parked on shorelines. Wells are being capped. OPEC is cutting. Without this energy the economy cannot expand. ANY attempt at govt intervention (stimulus) will FAIL because it will cause a commodity spike which will eat up all the stimulus money. In other words, the stimulus will go straight to Wall Street, same as always. Yet Americans vote for it anyway, out of ignorance. It is the same exact ignorance that sends $6 million a day to Israel to fund the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. People in america cant think anymore, and will be paying a hefty price for it. Even more than the 40% of their 401ks that has already been lost. This is a guaranteed fact, not my opinion.

Only currency manipulation can create a higher GDP now. But they already tried that in 2003. It failed. The cost is a far far worse depression. Google "market ticker"

Mark A. Sadowski said...

mhz,

I was bust doing some work for a change and only just noticed your questions. My only exposure to Behavioral economics and finance is through reading for pleasure. I particularly like Robert Shiller but I suspect that his opinions are becoming increasingly compromised by his non-academic projects. It is also my impression that Behavioral economists are reluctant to quantify things too specifically because inherently such things are of an irrational nature. And, although there is a mechanical aspect to all major booms and busts, psychology plays a major role in their timing. For example, I first publicly declared that I thought a major financial crisis was coming in the spring of 2007 (there had been plenty of indications for months if not years prior to that). What I could not foresee was what exactly would tip us over the edge. As it turns out, it was the collapse of Lehman Brothers. Once the crisis was in motion it was relatively easy for anyone who was independent and with some background in New Keynesian (I qualify that because pure monetarists and supplys siders seem perpetually overly optimistic) economics to correctly quantify where things would go subsequently. I have great respect for Nouriel Roubini, but although he seems to have timed the financial crisis correctly, to be honest he has been forecasting that a crisis was imminent for years. Frankly, I think that such matters are just too subject to our irrational minds to be timed with any degree of precision. I wish I could give better answers to your insightful questions.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Mule Rider caught on tape

Where Is Your Gawd Now?

Mark Grebner said...

The featured photo is from "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men," the searing photo-essay book by James Agee and Walker Evans. Evans took the photos, Agee supplied most of the text.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Jonathan Swift's proposal to solve economic depression. Sounds not that far from the GOP plan

Statler N Waldorf said...

Well, we could solve part of the problem by putting you on a diet. MR, you eat too much food. You must be stopped before we starve and you attain your own gravitational field. Please stop eating our babies.

Your god cannot save you from the lemon-lime. Mwa ha ha.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Where Is Your God Now?

Statler N Waldorf said...

The God of Commerce and Industry

Statler N Waldorf said...

Does you God know you eat babies?

Mark A. Sadowski said...

Cugel,

The unemployment numbers you cite for the period 1929-1943 come from the BLS and are subject to scholarly disagreement. The BLS numbers are revisions of Stanley Lebergott's estimates. His unemployment estimates prior to 1930 are in my opinion very inaccurate. Christina Romer has revised those numbers. They can be found in this paper:

Spurious Volatility in Historical Unemployment Data
Author(s): Christina Romer
Source: The Journal of Political Economy, Vol. 94, No. 1 (Feb., 1986), pp. 1-37

Additionally the BLS unemployment numbers for the period 1930-1943 do not include the Federal Emergency Relief Workers. Michael Darby has unemployment estimates that take that into account. His unemployment rates for 1932, 1940 and 1941 are 22.5%, 9.5% and 6.0% respectively. They can be found in this paper:

Michael R. Darby, “Three-and-a-Half Million U.S. Employees Have Been Mislaid: Or, an Explanation of Unemployment, 1934-1941,” Journal of Political Economy 84, no. 1 (February 1976): 1-16.

Clearly, Roosevelt's performance looks even better when you use what are in my opinion are the right numbers, and this matches people's more positive recollections at the time. A laymans introduction to the Relief Worker controversy can be found here:

http://edgeofthewest.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/very-short-reading-list-unemployment-in-the-1930s/

R-Boy said...

In 2006, I warned my colleagues about a housing bubble. I even wrote up some reports about how it would leave to a severe credit contraction.

A good many economists, like myself, saw this whole thing coming. All it took was good observational learning. Heeding my own predictions I positioned my financial holdings to take advantage of the downturn, all while the media and wall street were cheerleading.

My point is this: There are over 100,000 professional economists in the US. *Most* saw the coming recession and *Most* said something, but our advice fell upon the deaf ears of an administration that didn't want to believe in the majority of experts (just the experts it liked).

As to those of you here who believe that we really are in for very bad times, or that capitalism solely depends on growth alone, and a slew of other economic misconceptions that arise from only studying the bogus stripped down, assumption laden versions of Solow growth models in Undergraduate Macroeconomics 101, I must remind you of advice that has been proven time and again.

Don't follow the herd. Be greedy when others are fearful and be fearful when others are greedy. Our economy will see a recovery somewhere around late 2010. early 2011. Right on time to re-elect someone.

Call me cynical,

Statler N Waldorf said...

No, MR. You're just a fatty in a party hat.

Tim said...

My point is this: There are over 100,000 professional economists in the US. *Most* saw the coming recession and *Most* said something, but our advice fell upon the deaf ears of an administration that didn't want to believe in the majority of experts (just the experts it liked).

Exactly: the Bush administration spent eight years putting politics ahead of policy (e.g., Dick Cheney's statement after the 2002 midterm elections that "Deficeits don't matter") and looking for data that fit the theory instead of the other way around.

John M. said...

A couple points about the broader picture here (not the political argument in the last third of the thread).

First of all, global population is projected to level off around 9-10 billion in the 2040-2075 timeframe.

Second, there is plenty of energy to go around for centuries if we are willing to go to breeder reactors (proliferation threat, unfortunately) or solar prices continue to fall, and people are willing to change to small EV's (or not, if battery technology improves dramatically). Energy and transportation prices may or may not be cost-competitive with today's fossil fuels, but they won't be more than 2x as expensive.

Third, it's ridiculously expensive to colonize somewhere as hostile and distant as Mars. I can't help but think that a colony in Siberia would be 10-100x more cost-effective as a place to move surplus population, as it's right here, has more sunlight, breathable atmosphere, etc.... Oddly you don't hear much about that idea.

mhz said...

@Mark A
Thanks for the post-very interesting and informative. So when you say

"And, although there is a mechanical aspect to all major booms and busts, psychology plays a major role in their timing."

I am kinda-sorta equating
"unregulated money-changing" (my words) with "mechanical aspects". What might be a better way to understand your use of the term "mechanical aspects"? Can you give me some examples of "mechanical aspects". I am guessing insufficient regulatory statues and enforcement might qualify, but actual examples would be greatly appreciated.

Also I am still a little unclear on another point. If the "mechanistic aspects" for a crisis are in place does human psychology/behavior only influence when the crisis hits? I am assuming that subsequent policy can have an impact on how long and how bad the crisis is.

I was happy to hear that they will be talking about standardizing the international financial regulatory processes and systems at the next G20. I am guessing this effort will be similar to the work that the ICH has been attempting with pharmaceuticals. Regulation is VERY tough work, but it is certainly worth the effort. Even with all its faults I am thankful for the FDA. Melamine in in infant formula is fortunately something I do not have to be personally vigilant about.





TARP stands for Troubled Assets Relief Rrogram right?
What exactly is a Troubled Asset- It is just TOO FUNNY. Orwell anyone?


Would an exceptionally talented employee with a drinking problem qualify as a troubled asset? I mean if an asset is really that troubled would it actually be an asset?

Jake said...

You have to read the contract rules, Nate. If the sum of the quarterly declines is greater than 10% over 4 quarters, then the contract pays off. That means for InTrade purposes, they've re-defined a depression as a 2.5% decline in real GDP. That's why it's trading at 30%.

For expiry purposes a depression is defined as a cumulative decline in GDP of more than 10.0% over four consecutive quarters. This is calculated by adding together the published (annualized) GDP figures (as detailed below). If these annualised figures add up to more than -10.0% over four consecutive quarters then the contract will expire at 100.

It's really poorly worded. But, you should update your post to be accurate.

mhz said...

Ok how embarrassing I had no idea how complicated the technical the definition of asset is- my bad I am not an economist and I have NO training whatsoever in accounting or economics.


Still the phrase, "Troubled Asset", makes me smile. I cannot help think of problematic but talented or effective people.

Robert Downey Jr

AL Franken

Bill O"Riely

John said...

Photo attribution:
The woman is Florence Owens Thompson
The photographer is Dorothea Lange

Here are some interesting reads:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Owens_Thompson
http://www.loc.gov/rr/print/list/128_migm.html
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/fsa/8b29000/8b29500/8b29516v.jpg

JackRussell said...

John M.:

I fear that the world cannot accomodate 9-10 billion. Tripp said the world can sustain maybe 3 billion, and that figure is a bit higher than I have seen others quote, but that value is at least in the ballpark.

It isn't just energy. Basics like food and water would perhaps the be the greatest challenge. We have extracted fish from the oceans at such a rate that populations are plummeting. Modern agriculture requires lots of petrochemicals for fertilizers and pesticides. And in our breadbasket we make heavy use of irrigation water that we pump from underground aquifers, and the water levels in these aquifers are steadily dropping, and they will eventually be completely drained. There are many more such examples that have many of us concerned right now.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

@mhz,
Perhaps I could have phrased that better. By "mechanical" I was referring to the interaction of fundamentals. For example, it was clear that housing was overpriced and was due for a correction. One could concievably have modeled the trajectory of that correction and the effects that it would have on other variables (such as the financial markets). But what one could not model was the moment that the financial markets went into an absolute state of panic on September 15th. That was psychological in nature and personally don't believe it was possible to predict that moment with econometrics (at least as it currently exists). With respect to your reference to regulation and the causes of the current crisis I pretty much agree with Menzie Chinn (someone who was assigned reading in one of my courses). He believes that most of the blame can be attributed to poor regulatory and tax policy starting in 1997 but proceeding throughout the Bush years. I think he summarized the causes pretty well here:

http://www.straightstocks.com/global-economics/stuff-happens-the-bush-administrations-economic-stewardship/

Based on his opinion as to what were the causes, I think it should be pretty clear how public policy needs to change in the future in order to prevent this from happening again. But most macroeconomists I know are too busy thinking right now about how to stabilize the economy so that this doesn't turn into a full blown depression.

chris said...

Jake and JesseLivermore are right - I've checked the forum and postings on Intrade. However, the contract at Intrade also includes the last quarter of 2008. If the GDP for Q4 2008 goes down 6% and the economy contracts by 4% in Q1 2009 the contract at Intrade expires. At 40% this market is way underpriced. At the same time it does not meet the more common definition of a depression. READ THE RULES BEFORE BETTING ON THIS MARKET!!!

mhz said...

@Mark A-

Thanks- a very helpful read. My Dad likes to blame the Community Reinvestment Act. I did not take the bait- But next time it comes up I will send him this link.

Thanks again-

semichorus said...

BTW, that great Walker Evans photo was the product of a WPA project (!)

semichorus said...

Hey that's right-- the photo isn't Walker Evans at all, THIS one was Evans:

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~UG97/fsa/evanspegs/evans3.jpg

The other's Lange-- which means it's not in the public domain....

Ed said...

Nate:

You may want to use the PECOTA/538 method to predict the economy.

My thought would be to agregate leading indicators, weighting them based on their predictive ability.

platanoman said...

Ludwig once said economics is not a science capable of quantitative predictions. So, I would love to see Nate prove that

Flaneur54 said...

Nate:

Aren't we already in double digit unemployment? Which of the 6 indices matters? I'd love to read your thoughts.

Bureau of Labor Statistics: Table A-12. Alternative measures of labor underutilization. December 2008

2.9%, 4.2%, 7.2%, 7.6%, 8.3%, 13.5%

How would you like to be labeled "underutilized"?

Christina said...

Exactly, Flaneur, and IIRC, that doesn't account for the burgeoning prison population (~1.5% of all work-age males, I believe), and I'd be curious how much flight into another deliberately uncounted category (full-time students) is a factor as people choose another survival strategy of sorts.

While the survey method for generating unemployment statistics was adopted just before WW2, I do wonder how much they really capture a significantly different kind of labor market with different outlets than we had during the Great Depression.

(I know, it isn't quite a case of picking grad school or criminal enterprise, decisions, decisions...)

Leigh said...

Apparently--I'm sure other commentators will have pointed this out--we are already in double-digit unemployment according to the metrics used before a revision in the mid-1990s. Should we be paying attention to those earlier ways to calculate unemployment? Why were they changed?

blocks said...

Nate, what you have accomplished is admirable, but you are rapidly becoming as unreliable and superficial as the MSM you so often criticize.

If you had read the rules of the Intrade Depression contract you would have said the exact opposite thing about it -- that it is underpriced, not overpriced.

And as for your criticisms of the prediction markets, you are over zealous and perhaps slightly arrogant. True, there is money to be made on Intrade, as there is in any market. But please take it to heart that in this case, the market you wrote a post to criticize has it right (though the def. of Depression is poor), the mainstream economists have it right, and you, Sir, have it wrong.

With best wishes,
ABD

platanoman said...

Sorry Lock, but Intrade is not as accurate as someone believes. They did predict Sarah Palin was going to be ousted. Well, it didn't happen did it?

Matt said...

How comparable are the measurements of 25% unemployment in the Great Depression to the unemployment figure used today? I understand that Unemployment Insurance forms the basis of the primary method of computing unemployment, and Unemployment Insurance is a New Deal program that did not exist until after the peak of the Great Depression, and misses a lot of people. The secondary method is a survey, but I suspect that it is adjusted somehow to come out closer to the Unemployment-based measure. How comparable is it to the method used in 1932?

0xFCAF said...

...but Intrade is not as accurate as someone believes. They did predict Sarah Palin was going to be ousted. Well, it didn't happen did it?

Was the contract trading at 100%? I'm guessing it was barely above 50, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say it was 90. If Intrade traders are perfect predictors, 1 out of every 10 contracts at 90 will be for events that don't happen, at which point stupid people on the internet get to say that Intrade is inaccurate when in fact it was exactly right. It's like the opposite of Crossing Over: Everyone ignores it when a 90% event happens and picks on the 1 in 10 that expire at zero, claiming this is some sort of failure.

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Jake said...

Chris is sorta right. The contract includes 2008, but the contraction has to be in 4 consecutive quarters, such as FY08Q4-FY09Q3.

Also, I'm embarrassed for Nate that he lists this as one of his featured posts after it's been explained to him multiple times that his understanding of the InTrade market is completely wrong. Which is a shame. I can no longer rely on 538.com to be a reliable source of information

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