She's young, she's talented, and to many in the GOP ranks, it's only a matter of time before (gosh darn it!) people start liking Sarah Palin again. But is this whole working-the-refs angle -- in the pages of Esquire, to John Ziegler (yes, the same one), in her tête-à-tête with the Anchorage Daily News -- really the best idea? I don't like this interview. I was trying to figure out why. I think I know. Even though it's interesting to know about Palin's reaction to her mistreatment by the media, I think we are now getting well oversaturated on such personal stuff. It's too much the Heroine's Tale, which is nice and all, but we're ultimately looking for a leader, not someone with a tale of hardship. The media screwed her -- this is obvious. Maybe she should just move past such questions -- not letting them off the hook, but also not dwelling on them -- and make her interviewers focus on substantive, political questions. I, of course, love to slam the media for its bias. A lot of readers and commenters love it too. I'm just not sure if it's a very savvy use of Sarah Palin's time to comment upon it herself.
Some conservative bloggers don't think so; here's Ace of Spades on the Ziegler interview:
I think we can acknowledge that Palin had a rough go of things with the media. But I think we can also acknowledge one of the central mistakes made by both the McCain and Hillary Clinton campaigns: they treated the media as an exogenous factor, something which happens to them, rather than something within their locus of control. Complaining about the media is not a media strategy.
Nor do I know that Palin is liable to get much sympathy outside of her base. There hasn't been much polling on Palin lately, but there was an NBC/WSJ (.pdf) poll conducted about a month ago asked for favorability ratings on the four Presidential contenders and found Palin stuck in neutral, at 35/45 positive/negative in December as opposed to 39/48 in late October, with 30 percent still holding a strongly negative view of her. John McCain saw his negatives soften significantly, as did Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, and as had John Kerry following the 2004 election -- but not Palin (Joe Biden's ratings, for the record, were also not terrific).
People weren't turned off by Palin because of the questions about her wardrobe or baby Trig. They were turned off because -- fairly or not -- they couldn't become comfortable with the idea of her sitting in the White House. Giving interviews to the likes of John Ziegler or exchanging nastygrams with the Anchorage Daily News isn't going to get her to be taken more seriously.
1.13.2009
Palin's Popularity Pickle
@ 4:06 PM
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Creationists like sarah palin should never have any power in the first place.
In almost any other country Sarah Palin would be taken as a joke. Her IQ is obviously below 80. She makes George W Bush look good.
"Complaining about the media is not a media strategy."
It was for Hillary...
They were turned off because -- fairly or not -- they couldn't become comfortable with the idea of her sitting in the White House.
Let's make this explicit. They weren't comfortable because (fairly or not) they felt she was uninformed or unintelligent or both.
Nate, I think your a very smart.. I am a huge fan of your site, your work w/ the polls, etc.. however. I must totally disaggree with you saying Palin was unfairly treatment by the media.. WTF?? come on the media job is to report NEWS,scandal, lies, contradictions , corruption, etc.. and Palin gave the media MUCH FADDER in all those catagories. This woman does not know basic civics, you figured that out when she opened her mouth.. Now let be fair if this was Obama with a inlaw that was busted for selling drugs, it would be on the news cycle 24/7.. Fox news never reported that Levis mother was busted for selling Oxycotton. Man this is bullshyte about this media bias. Everyone like to say the media adored Obama, thats not true everything he did was blown out of proportion, the fact of the matter is Obama was on top of his game, he have very little misteps, that is why he is the president.. I can aggree with you that MCcain and Clinton both played "the blame the media card" when both camp ran a horrible campaign that is why they lost.. Lets keep it real Nate
It is not a matter of if Sarah Palin had a rough go of things, but more of a matter of if it was deserved or not.
Was it because the media was just against her? 1
Or was it because she avoided the media? Or was it because she didn't answer fairly simple questions? Or was it because she would complained about the media?
The other candidates were questioned, had their credentials questioned, and made fun of.
However, they all had a cohesive media strategy, they were well prepared for questions, well prepared for criticisms, and they let things roll off their backs.
Sarah Palin was not very intelligent, but what is much worse is that Sarah Palin appeared immature by being unable to work with others and unable to handle disagreements. That would make for a bad president.
Although, her complaining about the media now will rally the neo-con base around her. They pick through articles and call them biased, because they disagree with just one point of view in the article. They can identify with her. She has 4 or 8 years to lead her base in a small change of rhetoric that will allow her to keep the base she rallies support from now and reach out to more independents later. Her timing is right if she is going to complain.
A vote for Sarah Palin in the 2012 primaries will be roughly the equivalent of a vote to re-elect Obama. The governor simply does not have what it takes to compete on the national level. I still laugh thinking of the hyperbolic reaction to the ear-piercing string of lame, sarcastic one-liners that was her convention speech, complete with people calling it one of the great pieces of modern oratory. Back then, Jerome Armstrong (whose predictive abilities are about on par with Bill Kristol) bemoaned that she would be force that Democrats would be dealing with for years to come. I can only hope that's the case.
It was for Hillary...
Granted, but it only worked because:
(a) she had basically already lost
(b) some people felt sorry for her zombie-like post-February campaign
The strategy wouldn't have worked if anyone still took her seriously as a candidate.
Hilarious! The Franken SNL reference is PRICELESS!
OMFG. I can't abide this pity party for poor Sarah. She never gave a single press conference as candidate for Vice President of the United States. She (or the McCain campaign) thought that she could just stiff arm the press all the way to the White House. And then, when she gives a couple of interviews, she comes off like she just fell off the turnip truck!
And for the record, people were turned off in part because she was whipping her campaign crowds into a frenzy with some pretty incendiary language. Couple that with her apparent lack of knowledge and there's not a lot to like. And then, there are her positions on the issues...
Despite it all though we remain somehow fascinated with her and Joe the non Journalist. I personally hope they stay around for a long long time as the face of the Conservative Movement.
35 percent seems like a pretty fair base of support fo rSarah Palin considering th atis about hwere the Republican party ID is in this country. There are bviously some republicans who are turned off by her and there are obviously some independant women and men that make up for her losses among republicans. She will never garner cross over appeal form democrats and most independents want competitent government and I'm not sure Sarah Palin will be able to assuage fears that she would lead an incompetent government.
Maybe in pre 9/11 world she would be charming but in these serious tiems we need serious people, not charmers. If you can even call her charming.
I wish she would simply go away....
You must be feeling feisty today, Nate, lobbing fireballs such as this!
But I'll take the bait.
If Palin quit running her mouth and started reading all those publications she claims, she might have a better chance of saying something coherent to inspire public confidence the next time around. My bet is that her ship has already sailed, but who knows - Americans can have a pretty short memory when it comes to politics.
Nate,
I love that you took Mankiw's teaching moment to heart. You have obviously internalized the difference between exogenous and endogenous forces, and I think Mr. Mankiw would be much more likely to show you his appreciation if he wasn't so busy wiping the egg off his face.
No comment about the double interview Ziegler "did" on MSNBC the other day, about those Palin interviews yet?
I thought it was interesting that, at the question "did she ever own up to any responsibility at all for her shortcomings" the response was "you're a joke", "MSNBC is in the tank for Obama", "I feel like O.J. interviewing the cops, and you're O.J.", and then finally "yes! If you had just read the transcript you'd see that!"
What I don't get is why these people stick to a media strategy of attacking those who put them on the air. They clearly need the press to get the word out about their product, so why so much hate for the people doing that for them?
It seems to me these folks are going to be under the 40% threshold in this country for a good long while if they don't find another mantra besides the "frat-boy-dickhead" approach. Palin is certainly not a step past that.
40% of the electorate had no such qualms about Bible Spice being a heartbeat away from the Presidency.
Morons support morons!
also Sarah Palin would NEVER be able to become the republican nominee for president of the U.S.
She would have to go through Iowa and New Hampshire two states that are trending blue and wont vote for someone as hard right as palin.
I wonder if Iowa and New Hampshire are "pro-american states" in sarah palin's mind.....
Please- just go away already!
Oh and lets not forget the 2006 governor debate in alaska where she said that the phrase "under god" in the pledge was "good enough for our founding fathers so it should be good enough for us."
Im not sure what part of this to correct first but for starters the pledge was created in 1892 by Francis Bellamy and "under god" was added in the 1960s during the cold war to seperate us from the "godless russians".
If republicans are smart they'll throw Sarah Palin under the bus and make someone else the face of the republican party
Happy Birthday Nate!
Though you might know, Sarah Palin probably thinks that you're just one of the "Bored, anonymous, pathetic bloggers who lie"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/13/palin-lashes-out-at-bored_n_157569.html
I agree that Palin's major problem is to dispel the idea that she's a nincompoop.
The way to overcome that image is to say or do something serious. Develop credible expertise in something, take up a cause (and not one that reinforces her image as a social troglogyte).
The media was not Sarah Palin's worst enemy. Sarah Palin was Sarah Palin's own worst enemy. She complained about the McCain campaign not letting her be herself, but it was being herself that really undermined her own ambitions. I mean, come on, how can one lose a battle of wits with none other than Katie Couric!?
Sarah Palin is legitimately unintelligent and uninformed.
We're talking about someone who thinks the war in Iraq is "a mission from god", didnt know what the Bush Doctrine was, could not name one supreme court case besides Roe v. Wade, etc. etc.
Her crying about the media is just a cover up for her own stupidity. DARN YOU KATIE COURIC HOW DARE YA ASK ME QUESTIONS IN AN INTERVIEW GOSH DARNIT?
I think the McCain camp quickly realized that Palin was a complete idiot, thats they guarded her from the media so much and just loaded her up with notecards with talking points for her interview rather than have her directly answer questions as asked.
Is it me, or is La Palin adopting the Lindsay Lohan strategy of doing anything, no matter how silly or crazy, to gin up more attention? For all her media bashing, she apparently doesn't mind the media too much when they're interviewing her.
I know that Dems shouldn't underestimate her--they did that with Nixon and look what happened. Then again, Nixon was inarguably brilliant and shrewd. His rants worked. I don't see what gambits like Palin's buy her, except more ridicule from voters she would presumably have to win in the future.
Governor, you're no Dick Nixon...
Here's Palin's media problem in a nutshell: She kept acting as if she was still in Alaska, where she won one election after another by dogwhistling to the fundies and where her compulsive winking was correctly interpreted by the good ol' boys as saying that, sure, she might be running against them, but that didn't mean that she'd govern that way.
And she doesn't really have a Plan B. I think that she still thinks that she can be competitive nationally by slamming the media (including bloggers), without realizing that she's completely tapped out her base and still come up short.
I think we can acknowledge that Palin had a rough go of things with the media.
Did I miss the press conference? She sat down for a one-on-one with Katie Couric and the McCain campaign spent the rest of the campaign trying to repair the damage. Rough?
Totally off-topic, but a great idea.
Thought experiment- what would the world be like right now if Palin was getting ready for the White House, giving updates on the financial crisis and assembling her economic team?
Palin is an ignorant, bible thumping knuckle-dragger. The media was MORE than fair to her, given that she could not even figure out what papers and magazines she reads.
"she's talented? huh? i heard the flute playing attempt in the beauty contest and no she was not talented.
nate surely couldnt mean she had any political talent. I saw the couric interviews, way to many stump speeches, and the totally bonkers winks during the VP debates. I was very insulted that any moron (McCain) would think she could lead my country.
Palin didn't lose because of "the media"...Palin lost because she added nothing to the team she was on...in fact, she probably lost more votes than she gained for that team. She can complain all she wants but the truth is, her ideas are so right of the rest of this country, they scare most of us. There maybe plenty of people who like her but that doesn't mean she is fit for national office, be it the Senate or (god forbid) the White House.
Kennyb--just to point out the obvious, Hillary also lost.
I agree Nate though it does seem to me that the incessant complaints about how jolly unfair the media was (disregarding for a moment whether media criticism of Palin was warranted) was part of a larger "us and them" strategy. We saw it clearly in the attempts to label Obama as an exotic outsider and the comments about patriotic parts of the US. Indeed, McCain's entire persona is built on being an outsider. I'm not sure how well it's ever worked.
My problem with Joan of Sarah is the mendacity of it. How can she complain about SNL using her when, in the heat of the campaign, she herself went on SNL to participate in skits that made fun of her? She used SNL to get into the spotlight during the election now she complains that SNL used her for ratings? Beyond bat$hit crazy. She and her Alaska First husband are a carnival side show.
"... make her interviewers focus on substantive, political questions."
She couldn't answer a substantive, political question. That's why Ziegler didn't ask any, and it's why she hates Katie Couric and the MSM.
" Giving interviews to the likes of John Ziegler or exchanging nastygrams with the Anchorage Daily News isn't going to get her to be taken more seriously."
Spot on - I agree 100%.
I would add - there are a few people I know who wouldn't vote for McCain on the top of the ticket so it gave them license to see Palin for who she is. They were disappointed in McCain for picking her and disappointed in her for joining the ticket without the necessary chops to handle political things (like the media)
I truly hope Palin IS the new face of the new neocons. She is the most qualified person in the party after all - fer sure~!
As always
Thanks
Anyways as people become more educated there will be less and less religious people. Atheism and agnosticism are on the rise. This is social evolution.
Also more and more christians are becomeing less religious if that makes any sense. For example i have several friends who identify as "christian" who not only do not attend church but express serious doubts about the existance of god and an afterlife. I have also heard those who identify as christians call people like huckabee and palin "religious nutjobs".
So we will see less and less Mike Huckabees, sarah palins, etc. as the religious right thins out in numbers.
So the republican party is going to have to make some serious changes to compensate for the deminishing numbers of the religious right.
@fred-
what Franken SNL reference? Is it in one of the interviews Palin gave?
Sarah Palin is not young, she's old. She's not a politician, she's a piece of ass. She has no political future, this post was pointless.
Im pretty sure that McCain didnt think Palin would be able to lead the country, he picked her to get votes thats IT.
He THOUGHT:
A) Palin would further add to the PUMA effect (didnt pan out)
B) Palin would attract other independent women (actually the opposite happened, this actually HURT McCain with the woman vote)
C) Palin would attract the religious who wernt too comfortable with McCain (OK this work but not enough to counter everything else)
D) They would be able to play the gender card and force democrats to ether treat her with kid gloves or look sexist. (They REALLY tried hard with this one with Palin constantly playing the gender card complaining of "double standards" with the media and lets not forget the whole "lipstick on a pig" line they tried to completely twist)
But after the american people realized how far right, uninformed and out right stupid sarah palin was, the McCain Camp tried to change the focus from Palin to Joe the Plumber, another far right nutjob (although not AS dumb as palin).
If republicans are smart they'll throw Sarah Palin under the bus and make someone else the face of the republican party
My guess is that Mitt Romney already is two steps ahead of you.
Happy birthday, Nate
Sarah Palin's political future, oddly, rests more with Obama's performance over the next two years than with anything she personally does, barring a major scandal.
Anti-intellectualism is a powerful trend in America, and goes all the way back to the Colonial era. The tensions between landed aristocracy and agrarians formed the backdrop of the Revolution. Throughout our history, a tension between the educated and those who distrusted them. Despite LBJ and his team of 'the best and the brightest' and their best efforts, the failure of his administration to resolve the Vietnam crisis caused the country to spasm in the direction of Nixon-Agnew, the VP of which became famous for dismissing critics as 'nattering nabobs of negativity'. The Reagan Administration arose as a reaction to the failure of Carter's cabinet to resolve the Iran crisis and the oil shock, which happened despite the powerful team of intellectuals int he Carter cabinet. When Atwater attacked Dukiakis, he did it by painting him as too smart for the job, putting the words, "It must be nice to never be wrong" in George Bush I's mouth. His son's campaign was one of 'all personality and no brains' vs 'all brains and no personality' on the side of Gore.
Sarah Palin will never be accused of being too smart for the job, even if we're talking about garbage collection. But her appeal to those who feel that they were left out of the success enjoyed by their more educated peers, the former head cheerleaders who are now cleaning hotel rooms for a living while the computer geek owns the hotel chain they work for, those folks will be watching to see if Obama and his team succeed or not.
If they do, then Palin will not be as tempting if they do not. If they fail, they will be able to say, "See? All that education didn't really do us any good. They're the smartest people int he world, and they fucked it all up".
That is essentially Sarah Palin's campaign speech. Whether she has an audience or not has everything to do with the next two years of the Obama Administration.
I was turned off because the woman thinks Earth is 6,000 years old.
Re: Palin:
"If you want to know why the rest of the world is scared of Americans, consider the fact that after two terms of disastrous rule by a small-minded ignoramus, 46% of us apparently thought the problem was that he wasn’t quite stupid enough. Palin’s unending emissions of baffling, evasive incoherence should have disqualified her for any position that involved a desk, let alone placing her one erratic heartbeat from the presidency..."
http://buffalobeast.com/134/50mostloathsome2008-full.html
Okay, 538ers, I'm torn.
On one hand, I'm delighting in watching Saint Sarah of Wasilla completely insert her foot into her mouth, and am of the opinion that if she tries that stuff again in 2012 we'll probably have our first two-term African-American president.
On the other hand:
1) I'd LIKE to be able to respect the opposition, and feel there's a place for it. (From the last thread, I don't think Republicans are pure evil - call me idealistic if you want.)
2) Things can change in four years - what if something exogenous happens? What if Gov. Palin learns how to not come off as so polarizing and divisive, or at least present herself as more machismo (and effective) than that latte-swilling liberal pansy Obama?
I wouldn't count a Palin 2012 run as an Obama second term just yet - certainly, Palin '08 would lose horribly, but things can change.
Palin actually had two separate problems with public perception. One of it was self-inflicted, and it is the one most commentators here have referred to: she did badly in interviews. As Fareed Zakaria told Wolf Blitzer in a CNN interview (referring mostly to her gibberish answers to Couric), the big problem wasn't so much that she gave the wrong answers, rather it was that she didn't understand the questions. Dissembling on saying no thanks to the bridge to nowhere and Obama palling around with terrorists also didn't help. There was also a second, decidedly less seemly perception problem. It was the all the snarkiness: being the grandmother-to-be of an out-of-wedlock child, Trig rumored really to be her grandson, rumors that she got on a plane in Texas after her water broke (Trig pregnancy) and flew to Alaska (apparently thought in some circles to be consistent with the rumors that Trig was her grandson), her son-in-law-to-be's Facebook page, worries that motherhood would interfere with being vice-president.
I guess the shopping spree might fall somewhere in the middle.
Palin's complaints about the second perception problem above is, I think, legitimate--or at least would be legitimate if she didn't blame it on MSM. MSM was not completely innocent with respect to the second problem, but it was mostly a rumor mill problem, not a MSM problem. The first perception problem very much did come from MSM: it came from MSM quite legitimately doing its job.
Palin's complaints conflates the two perception problems: it treats the first problem as merely part of the first and blames the whole thing on MSM. That is either clueless, dishonest, or both.
I don't know if Palin is really dumb. I hope so, I hope she is too dumb to be able to win the presidency. Of course, after W., maybe I should be more careful what I hope for. She certainly is dangerously uninformed. Even more dangerously, she does not seem even to care.
Nate: congratulations to you and Sean for having fivethirtyeight voted best political weblog for 2008. The voting wasn't even close. I'm so happy you got close to 60% of the vote and Ben Smith of Politico - as well as all the rest of your competition - clocked in at about 3% each of the vote. I look forward to reading your work going forward.
I wonder if Palin as a Presidential nominee might create a sort of reverse of the effect that Bush had. Bush galvanized the Christian Right base by giving them hope that they'd have "one of them" in office to finally do some god-fearin' policy-making.
Palin might galvanize the Left to turn out and vote against her out of the great fear over what having a rather unthinking adherent to religious intolerance might engender.
You want a candidate (like Obama, for example) who inspires your base. Not a polarizing candidate who cancels out whatever gains he/she might gain from those who love him/her with opposing votes from those who hate him/her.
Sarah Palin did get a lot of bad press, and she earned it! The media loved her at first. They fawned over her convention speech which, while she did show she can deliver a prepared speech well, it was otherwise not all that notable in my view. She was the one who: had no idea what the Bush doctrine was, couldn't name a single Supreme Court case other than Roe Vs. Wade that she disagreed with, gave an answer about the bailout that Tina Fey could parody while hardly changing a word, couldn't name a single publication she read regularly, cited Alaska's proximity to Russia as foreign policy experience, etc., etc. The list goes on. And all of these gaffes were no one's fault but Palin's.
Palin seems to be developing a pattern: if she gets negative press as a result of answers she gives in interviews, rather than accept responsibility for giving a flaky answer, she blames the interviewer and/or "the media". She even did it with this latest Ziegler interview. As soon as she started getting press she didn't like over it, she whined about being "taken out of context". And if anyone took her out of context, it would have to have been her good buddy Mr. Ziegler -- I guess even conservatives aren't immune from being blamed by Palin if she embarrasses herself while being interviewed by them!
And if I hear her complain about the Trig story one more time, I think I'll pull my hair out. Especially when she insinuates that the "mainstream media" reported on it, which they didn't. (Other than to mention that the rumor existed after the MCCAIN CAMPAIGN made reference to it in announcing Bristol's pregnancy.) You don't see Obama mentioning in every single interview how mean it was for people to spread the false rumor that Michelle had said "whitey" on videotape, and how everyone should feel sorry for him because of that horrible rumor -- and that one WAS reported about on FOX News (if they count as the MSM).
The Media is biased toward one thing: Ratings.
Ratings are simply data points in the recursive relationship between media producers and media consumers i.e. the public. To say The Media gave her a hard time is to say the public did. The public was and still is fascinated with her both in adoration and contempt.
The only way to make her go away is to stop talking and reading about her and clicking on links with stories or videos about her. When we become disinterested so will The Media.
At the moment, however, every media outlet is aware that every story about her receives above average attention and, in turn, ad revenue.
It is like the traffic jam which occurs because the people passing by the car wreck slow down to see what's going on.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
"I think we can acknowledge that Palin had a rough go of things with the media."
Nate, I think this might be the most wrong thing you've ever written.
Palin had a rough go of it with the media? She NEVER held a press conference during the campaign, which was unprecented and radically undemocratic. Any objective observer could see she was unprepared for the office for which she was nominated, and yet the media insisted on portraying her as a credible candidate. At a certain point during the campaign, she was basically running on a platform of jingoistic nativist nationalism, possible without McCain's consent. And the media continued to treat her as a legitimate public figure.
The media was incredibly generous towards Palin. I'm sure we can all acknowledge.
Bible Spice has a lot of talent PLAYING TO THE BASE. Right now, she can only play to the base. But if she learns the right memes, you would be amazed how many people will "forgive and forget" in four years time.
She's dumber than a pile of dinosaur crap, she's a mean girl only all grow'd up with five pups to call her own, and the effect of gravity in combination with a diet rich in moose is going to ravage her utterly over the next four years.
A year being an eternity in this business, she won't be any smarter, more likeable or better looking with the passage of four (who wants to get waited on by the old flirty cocktail waitress?). The DNC accordingly ought to do what it can to keep her well in play headed into the 2012 primary cycle.
The real difference between a hockey mom and a pitbull? You'd do better to nail the dog...
Palin is a disgusting pig. She doesn't even wash her hands after she uses the toilet.
Maybe it's some Alaskan tough girl thing or something. Talk about bad hygiene.
Image all those hands she shakes. Having fecal matter on your hands is a good way of spreading some serious diseases.
Maybe she thinks washing her hands is elitist or something.
@Stat-Wald:
What Spiggy Agnew complained about was "nattering nabobs of negativism".
Now if Sarah P had said it she would have been compalining...
Count me is as one of those who disagrees that Sarah Palin had a rough time with the media, or that the media were biased against her, or that she was treated unfairly by anyone in the MSM.
What happened is that a person of middling intelligence, with no curiosity about the world or about what a sitting President or Vice-President actually does was questioned with extraordinary patience and care and was found wanting. Granted the MSM are toadies, not to the left but to a.) their advertisers and b.) the Republican whine-ocracy, which can be a formidable opponent. The real savaging that Sarah Palin got was on the blogs, where people were free to showcase her for what she is--a person of middling intelligence with no curiosity about the world or about what a sitting President or Vice-President actually does.
@Nate and Sean: Congratulations on FiveThirtyEight.com winning the most votes in the 2008 Weblog awards for "Best Political Coverage." With 56% of the votes. Looks like certification of the outcome will come on Thursday.
Yawn.
That's it! It's the media's fault that when Bible Spice opens her mouth, stupid falls out. That's the ticket! Darn media!
(Hope this isn't a double-post.)
Well, it looks as though the polls are closed in the "Best Political Coverage" Weblog award, and 538 won. Beating 14 other candidates with a clear majority--it wasn't even a fair fight.
Well earned, Nate!
Prag, that was so bad, it borders on genius.
@ Juris: FiveThirtyEight.com winning the most votes...with 56% of the votes.
You now have a MANDATE! Right on.
I for one am rooting for Sarah Palin to become the face -- indeed the poster nut -- for the Rethuglican Party. After all, I want to see the Rethugs marginalized as much as possible so that in the end they'll be the party of Oklahoma, Louisiana, Utah and yup Alaska. And nowhere else.
Sarah Palin is a very polarizing force, and I doubt this will change by 2012 (or ever). She appeals to fundamentalists who see no shades of gray. I predict that after a few years of Obama-cooperative-bipartisanship, people will be ready to do away forever with the "50% plus one and screw the other 49.something" approach to government... and then, bye bye Sarah. (Yes, I have criticized Obama for being "too bipartisan"... partly because there's a time and place for it, and partly because it's my job - and not mine alone! - to keep pushing him to the left.)
Will Sarah someday learn to strike the right tone and sound "bipartisan" without actually being it? After all, George W. fooled everyone that way in 2000. But I think that Sarah's ego is too big, that folks are less likely to get fooled again, and that ultimately she will remain too dumb and too far to the right for the majority of the USA.
As for the media thing: if Katie Couric was "too rough" on her, how would she hold up next to Ahmadinejad, or even her close personal friend and neighbor Vladimir Putin? If you wanna be President, you gotta be able to take a few hits.
The problem with Palin wasn't that she couldn't "chew bubble gum and tie her own shoelaces" the problem with our Ms Sarah was that she couldn't even "chew bubble gum."
Obama went on The O'Reilly Factor. That was no softball interview (you should watch it on YouTube). If Obama can handle O'Reilly, Palin shouldn't be complaining about what happened on Katie Couric.
Sara Pallin was a disaster for the McCain campaign for which we all owe her a debt of gratitude. She destroyed his campaign by four means:
1. She eliminated the only reason that anyone would vote for McCain -namely his experience and judgement that would keep the country safe in troubled times. And then McCain, a 3 time cancer survivor, picks a bimbo for VP. And suddenly everyone says, Wait a minute. This guy has terrible judgement and clearly doesn't care about his country.
2. Pallin threw the fear of God into the Democrats. All summer we had been happily sitting on a 4-8 point lead for Obama. And then Pallin spoke at the convention and for a few days McCain had a small lead. The Democrats suddenly woke up. Out came the check books and the credit cards. September was the biggest month for fund raising, ever. And the volunteers got in their cars, and on their computers and suddenly thousands of democrats were energized and working.
3. Pallin just sucked all the oxygen out the McCain campaign. The media was all Pallin, all the time. What stupid thing did she do today? What stupid thing did she say now? I can never remember a piling on of a political figure with such glee since Clinton and Monica.
4. Pallin really hurt McCain where he needed help - with women, swing voters, college educated, and young people. And she helped him where he did not need help. After all, who else were the Jesus freaks going to vote for anyway?
So maybe some Republicans want her to run in 2012, but all Democrats should be praying she runs. She is worth millions.
Ward Heeler.
To be fair to Palin, I do not think she is unintelligent. She is clearly a shrewd politician. I think she is just woefully uninformed, and does not have any interest in changing that fact.
You never get a second chance to make a first impression... Sarah Palin tarnished her brand by grabbing for the brass ring before she was ready. I don't understand what her rush was; she's only 44. She should have (1)let McCain go into the tank on his own, (2) finished her term as governor, and (3) run for Senate, allowing herself the time to get a grounding in national and international issues. Then all that charisma and personality would have been an asset, instead of sizzle without the steak.
After this fiasco, she will be forever known (outside the GOP base) as the the Neiman-Marcus-raiding, out-of-her-depth interview-mangler, just like Dan Quayle was the "potato with an 'e'" guy. A pity for her, but fortunate for the rest of us: can you imagine her in charge of the entire free world?
Stat-Wald...
Not genius but dyslexia! Whenever I type "complain" or any variant thereof it always comes out "compalin" unless I go very, very slowly.
The thing about the Republican religious base is that it is shrinking. Why? They're dying off. Political trends come and go, and this one got its birth with Ronald Reagan almost thirty years ago. The Republicans have painted themselves into the same corner the Whigs did 150 years ago. If some respectable fiscal conservative (Michael Bloomberg, say) were to found a national Conservative Party that paid attention to conservative governing principles rather than looking for stains in everybody's underpants the Republican Party would be as dead as Ozymandias inside of two years.
The fact that Repubs are pointing to Palin as their messiah just proves my point that they still don't get it. Palin only inspires or appeals to the 25% of the far-right ultra-conservatives of the party that seem to still have complete power in the party.
Are there any moderate Repubs out there who aren't completely TERRIFIED of the idea of Palin being the standard bearer of the Party going forward? Talk about consolidating your power. If anyone is unsure about what the definition of insanity is, just look at the Repub party as Exhibit No. 1.
If Obama has any modicum of success, the GOP will be forced to go with a moderate; another fire-brand conservative will have zero appeal to political independents.
Let me add my congratulations to Nate for winning the 2008 Weblog Awards for best Political Coverage. Full disclosure: I voted, but only once. Also, while I still can (in the U. S. Eastern Time Zone) I will join others in wishing Nate a Happy Birthday!
WV: tories (how counter-revolutionary!)
Thoughts:
I have difficulty seeing how Palin will survive the Republican primaries.I see Huckabee (smart,personable,with a terrific sense of humor),Romney,rising Republican governors,etc.eating her alive.If there are no well qualified candidates running against Palin in 2112,it's because Obama has a lock!
I don't find Palin physically attractive at all.I can't get past her shrill voice.It shreds my nerves,
Agnew wasn't smart or learned enough to come up with "nattering nabobs of negativism." The phrase was written by our old enemy Pat Buchanan.
Wolf,
Okay, Katie Couric vs Bill O'Reilly. Steel cage death match. Two can enter, only one can leave.
Who wins?
I'll bet you twenty Katie eats O'Reilly's still throbbing liver raw.
I'll bet you twenty Katie eats O'Reilly's still throbbing liver raw.
Now *that* I'd pay my last dime to see.
PALIN/KEYES 2012!!!
THE REAL AMERICA, CIMARRON COUNTY, OKLAHOMA SUPPORTS YOU PALIN! F THE LIBS!!
PALIN/KEYES 2012!!!
Can a single ticket contain that much crazy?
Keep crying unpatriotic lib, don't be mad I live in REAL AMERICA (Oklahoma, where no counties went for the liberal terrorist extremist muslim HUSSEIN) and not in a lib scum pit!!
PALIN/KEYES 2012!!
KEYES/BACHMANN 2020!!
BACHMANN/MUSGRAVE 2028!!!!
Normally, I ignore trolls like PeteKent and Mule Rider, but...
...goddamn, Petey, that has to be the best birthday present you could have given to Nate. So cute. T_T
A slightly belated happy birthday to our favorite stats geek. Hope it was a good one.
Anyway, I still have my doubts that she's completely finished, though if I were an adviser to her I'd have recommended sitting this one out. She may have done damage to her brand, but remember that W got elected by a wider margin for his second term than he did his first (the first was a statistical tie, and the second was 51% to 48%), even though the wheels were already coming off in 2004, and he'd managed to already embarrass himself. (Blame that on Kerry if you must - I remember saying that my vote was less FOR Kerry than AGAINST Bush, compared to this cycle where I was FOR Obama and less AGAINST McCain, even after the Palin debacle.)
Wasn't Abu Ghraib breaking back in '04, anyway?
In the end, it all depends on whether she's a Quayle or a Nixon. Again, I think she's a Quayle, but I'm not sure that she's not a Nixon...
(Side note: I just installed NoScript, and apparently the WV I got the first time was "abitrus." Unfortunately, I couldn't post with that WV and had to refresh the page.)
Tell me lib, why did America vote for a terrorist extremist muslim? WHY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! DO YOU EVEN LOVE THIS GREAT NATION?
GOD BLESS OKLAHOMA, THE REAL AMERICA!
...oh wait, it's probably Mule. I forgot for a second that Petey's a fan of copypasta.
To answer questions:
Brian - Youbetcha, don'tchaknow. (I mean, if the pure unadulterated evil of Cheney was passable twice, I think a double shot of balls-to-the-wall crazy is fair game.) And if that were the ticket, I don't think I'd leave my computer and my television from the time of the RNC to Election Day - it'd just be THAT entertaining.
Petey - See, it's a little known fact that Osama (who, by the way, is Obama's half-brother - his first name is almost the same as our President-Elect's last name!!!!!), soon after 9/11, detonated a bunch of gay anti-American bombs over strategic points of the country. In some places - like the New York area, they took hold almost immediately.
Some places, like Virginia, it took 7 years to take full effect.
I heard that in certain places, when it was announced that Obama was the projected president-elect, there was gay anal sex in the streets through Bibles with holes cut out of them in honor of his victory.
That will NEVER happen in Oklahoma. We have home made sodomy laws. We're the REAL AMERICA! Us Okies had NO counties go for the terrorist! Haha!!
Osama is a boot lickin commie lovin domestic terrorist! You libs should be shamed!
@mhz:
What Franken SNL reference?
It's in Nate's post: "to many in the GOP ranks, it's only a matter of time before (gosh darn it!) people start liking Sarah Palin again."
That's a reference to Frankin's Stuart Smally character and the nearly iconic line "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darn it people like me."
This PeteKent impostor is cute and all, but he's no He.
* * *
Add me to the chorus of "Palin, please!" America picked Al freakin' Gore over the folksy huckster with no measurable intelligence; if we substitute him for an incumbent Barack Obama, it'll be all Dems in a landslide.
(gosh darn it!)
Actually, it's "dog-gone it."
But this Stuart Smalley quote seems far more suitable for Ms. Palin: "That's just stinkin' thinkin'!" [insert wink]
It's too bad the trolls on this site can't even manage to be funny. Lame.
From a Pary strategy point, Palin is doing more for the Dems than the GOP. As she plays to the hardcore of the party she shrinks their(GOP) base and fuels Democratic fund raising. A party fifteen points down in voter association is insane to want that.
Ah, geez! We get rid of Mule Retardation and PeteKent comes back! WTF? If he had anything intelligent to say when trying to make his backward, reactionary, potentially dangerous point, I would say to let him express himself. But all this cut and paste, repeated, nonsensical, childish lunacy is a waste of blog space. Remember that PeteKent has also gone postal on this site.
Moderator: Please don't let wingnuts repeat the same thing over and over. Once is enough. If they have something different to say then post it. If it's a repeat, deny it. Pretty please!
There once was a gov'ner called Palin,
Who blamed the media for her VP bid failin'
Not the fake French phone call
Or the trips to the mall -
Gosh darn, the truth about Palin needs nailin' (wink)
"I, of course, love to slam the media for its bias."
What a f*cking kook. Conservatives slam the media because they don't want to come to terms with their severely flawed and outdated ideology.
Although there were many troubling things about Palin, she did manage to finally bring one dirty little subject straight out into the open in a way even W managed to avoid: IQ.
A very dirty subject indeed considering how it is viewed in the United States, a country where intelligence, in itself, is something that has historically always been distrusted within popular culture.
The question about Bush's IQ was never overt. The media never went after after him. It was only over time that questions were indirectly raised (Paul O'Neil's book brushed ever so lightly the subject...).
Bush, nevertheless, is now broadly seen as a deeply simplistic person. View how the scientific community was disenfranchised from any discussion with the administration concerning energy issues, climate change, agriculture, the general environment. View how the professional diplomatic community was disenfranchised from any discussion concerning foreign policy. What was good for Des Moines, was good for the world...
As you all know, the Bell Curve places half the population above and half below the median of 100 on the IQ scale.
The neo-cons would have us believe that a large swath of America, with mediocre or sub-mediocre intelligence, somehow also holds a higher sense of political virtue. If not outright moral superiority.
As though that huge swath of population consists of millions of clones of Forrest Gump. Simplistic, but decent at heart.
Here, a digression. I do not believe George W. Bush is immoral, or amoral... but more precisely sub-moral. He simply had no tools to understand moral issues, and was able to simply deny evil. Gitmo waterboarding... he was incapable of making any distinction whatsoever. Unfortunately, Bush had a Reaganesque, neo-Teflon, ability to sidestep these issues. Palin, because of her nearly visible, visceral hatred of "un-Americans", does not. Luckily.
Stupid is, as stupid does. But good intentions is no longer enough.
And simplistic can also translate into: fearful and xenophobic.
Not that Palin is racist (certainly fearful). At least not in the black-white sense. But in the conservative sense: fearing and hating anyone with analytical intelligence, or who does not share the same political or religious views.
IQ has always been the dirty little problematic in modern democratic systems, and most obviously in America. Manipulation becomes a temptation.
McCain played too deeply into that game.
And the media, actually, went much more softly on Palin, than they might have. But... and this was interesting... for the first time the outlines of the subject became visible. Nobody in the mainstream media said she has a mediocre IQ. The talking point was that she was "unprepared".
The blogosphere, of course, ripped her to pieces.
Because they spotted, correctly, she was not only simplistic. But not even decent.
Some day... Nate... if you're feeling really brave and want to trot out statistics setting off a media fire storm, try to run a corollary between voting trends and IQ in the general population.
Someone should write a book...
Oh Sarah, Sarah, Sarah. Such an inspiration. Makes grown men cry out with joy. Makes others wince in pain. Makes still others pine for a special liaison.
wv: props (to Nate)
@e3323, @chris: Good points both. I hope Palin keeps giving interviews because her struggles to redefine herself will bury her political career. She is obviously a mediocre con woman, we have clear signals in the Couric interview.
The subtle point is not that she couldn't answer the question about the Bush doctrine, it was that she tried to cover up that she couldn't answer, and to most people the question "Which one, Charlie?" showed not only her ignorance but her duplicity.
The proper answer would have been, "I'm sorry, I'm drawing a blank on what you mean by 'The Bush Doctrine.' You'll have to help me out on that one."
Of course it would be better if she knew, but notice Charlie had to elaborate and tell her what it was anyway, so she loses the "ignorance" card either way, but in her way, she proved "duplicity" as well. Charlie gets a two for one deal.
When politicians are actually honest, or smart liars are pretending to be honest, they are unafraid to be uninformed.
As for the Couric "What do you read?" question, Palin was stupid again. IMO she got paralyzed because she thought she should be reading something hefty to prove her qualifications as a candidate, and couldn't think of anything. She should have told the truth, it would hurt less.
Notice the result was the same: Either way she comes off looking like a non-reader, but with Couric, she also comes off looking like a fraud. She should have just said, "Frankly I don't read many publications religiously, I get articles from my staff, my husband, even my kids, the TV, the net, and I can't really name sources. I can't even name a favorite journalist, we just like stories about Alaska, of course, and opinion or analysis that's different or insightful in some way."
So she loses about half the erudite card, but hangs on to the honesty card.
Fortunately, every interview she gives, she keeps making the same mistake. Lots of Republicans are idiots that get elected to office, they just have to learn that lies are most effective when composed of 90% truth. Palin doesn't have the skill, she followed scripts to be mayor and then governor, this can work in small towns. (Note All of Alaska has the same population as Oklahoma City, and less than Austin TX).
It stops working on the national stage, because media jobs are a Darwinian struggle. There won't be great investigative reporters covering politics for audiences of half a million, unless a pol is unlucky and happens to catch a star reporter starting their career.
But on the national stage you suddenly face ten-year survivors, battle-hardened reporters trained to root out the truth. They did this with Palin: The truth is, she is a pretender, a hypocrite, a liar, a fraud and thief. Behind the scenes she abuses her power to settle petty personal grievances and to steal money from her employers, either the state or the McCain campaign. She is the female Blagojevich, a corrupt politician in it for themselves while pretending to be in it for the people.
If the Gallup polling on Nixon and Bush is correct, Lincoln was right when he said you can fool some of the people all of the time. To be precise, about 25% of them.
Unless Palin suddenly learns to lie with the truth, like world-class pols do, every interview she does will provide more evidence of her duplicity. She is a two-faced liar. Like all pols, her popularity will rise as her decisions and opinions stop making any difference to us. But the minute she threatens to win a position of influence, all these interviews provide more fuel for the fire that burns her, and her favorable ratings will head toward 35 or 30.
I think Sarah Palin's political career outside of Alaska is toast, and getting toastier with every interview. Any unscripted interaction with her backfires, she doesn't comprehend the national stage or the people on it. She has the necessary level of sociopathy but not the smarts to go with it. So keep talking, Spider Sarah, and spin the silk that will strangle your career.
"I think we can acknowledge that Palin had a rough go of things with the media."
Nope, sorry Nate. Have to disagree with you there.
"Complaining about the media is not a media strategy."
It has been the Republican S.O.P. for 40 years now, and it was highly effective for the first 38.
Personally, I view this strategy as a sign of weakness in the discipline and overall argument proposed by a candidate, whether it is in the context of a specific issue or a campaign.
McCain put this country in danger by putting her on the ticket. I`m sure she is no dummy but she is competely unqualified to ever be president.
I`m sure Obama is praying hard she is his opposition in 2012 and with the republican party mostly made up of knuckle draggers she may very well be their nominee.
Her only problem will be she will have to go through the primaries and her lack of knowledge will be obvious and she will really have no one to bitch about but her own performance.
She needs to go away and study her civics and history like my 12 year old daughter who I think knows more than Palin does.
I dunno. There were aspects of the coverage of Palin that were legitimately troubling - in particular, the coverage of the Trig thing, which was pretty much garbage, and also things like her clothing purchases were probably taken too far. The satirical attacks on her also did have a harshness that was absent from attacks on the other candidates.
Still, I guess she did invite much of it. The most effective criticisms of her, IMHO, came implicitly from her own words.
For those who are wondering here is a quick Franken update:
http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/37523294.html?page=3&c=y
The more this drags out the more I am convinced Franken is gonna make a great Senator. Keep up the good work Al.
wv: scoop- no joke here is the scoop on Franken.
The clothes thing was not about her clothes, but the cost being taken from campaign contributions and thus perfectly appropriate.
There was little or nothing about Palin coverage that troubled me, she was, in fact, given the easiest interviews of any VP candidate ever - her problem was she could not even get over that incredibly low bar.
Her political instincts are also offensive to many - she just attacks.
Has anyone ever noticed that the parts of the US that claim to be the real America contribute almost nothing to it?
I'm talking taxes here. Most of the tax money comes from the major cities on the coasts and the Great Lakes. There's not alot of revenue generated in Utah. California contributes a shitload to this country, though.
It seems to me that a real patriot would give to his country instead of just taking from his country.
Oklahoma is not patriotic. Oklahoma is a tick that sucks on the blood of good, hard working Americans that pay taxes in places like San Francisco and Seattle. Think about it: when some 40 year old still lives in the basement of his parent's house and refuses to get a job, is he supporting his parents? You know, that's a kinda support they could probably live without.
And that's the kinda support the 'real America' offers thsi country. Bumper stickers, obnoxious country/western songs, mullets, these people are the 40 year old fatasses of the country sitting in it's basement, a place I like to call Texas, munching chips and bitching about how unpatriotic it is that people who get educated and get real jobs can get laid but he can't.
But it's okay, because he's a christian. Which means he can do anything and get away with it.
This link is ostensibly OT, but it addresses one of the most problematic qualities in Palin that many on this thread have mentioned.
She seems to lack a passionate and respectful curiosity about the world and universe we are so lucky to inhabit.
http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/guest-column-a-new-kind-of-big-science/
Palin is a narrowly social being; consequently she misses much of the beauty that our planet and universe have to offer.
Generalize and sterotype much, Statler? Geez....
A great article from the former head of the RNCC, back when they gained seats. He essentially argues that the Palin agenda is part of the problem, not part of the solution (my implication on Palin, not his directly):
http://www.riponsociety.org/forum109a.htm
It sounds like everyone on this site has a reading comprehension problem.
Nate said Palin 'had a rough go of things with the media.' In what universe isn't that an objective fact? Palin is not exactly a talented media spinner, as she continues to demonstrate with the ADN, but Nate didn't say anything about the fairness/unfairness of the coverage. Just that it was rough, which it very obviously was once the press realized she was a farce disguised as a candidate for vice president.
RTFA, people.
@Eiseley
I think it's you who need to re-read, actually. Specifically:
"The media screwed her -- this is obvious. " - Ace of Spades
"I think we can acknowledge that Palin had a rough go of things with the media. " - Nate
I don't agree with Ace of Spades: Nate does: hence I disagree with Nate too.
Juris wrote: "I agree that Palin's major problem is to dispel the idea that she's a nincompoop. The way to overcome that image is to say or do something serious."
She has an excellent opportunity to do just that. Alaska, as a semi-honorary member of OPEC, gets its revenue from oil sales. Their budget has gone way out of whack over the past few months, as oil prices have dropped by 60% or more. If Palin can handle that situation, she might have a shot at something larger.
ABowers wrote "Sara Pallin [sic] was a disaster for the McCain campaign for which we all owe her a debt of gratitude. She destroyed his campaign by four means:"
Remember a few weeks before the election, when the 538 roving news team was visiting campaign offices throughout the nation? There was a steady report of Republican offices closed, or woefully understaffed. I can't help but think that some of the potential volunteers were insulted by the "community organizer" riffs at the convention. Palin gets partial credit, with Giuliani.
cheapseats wrote: "I do not believe George W. Bush is immoral, or amoral... but more precisely sub-moral."
I found his reaction to the Abu Ghraib photos most telling. He seemed confused and lost, and just kept saying "that's not America - that's not what we do." It really seemed that he was deeply troubled by what was shown.
We've since found out that these methods were discussed at White House meetings, long before the photos turned up. So Bush knew intellectually about the torture, but just hadn't made any sort of emotional connection. That would fit with your "sub-moral" characterization.
I say this as a Republican (who was very glad to vote for Obama).
Palin delenda est.
@Statler: I live in Texas, a-hole, and I have paid an ass load of taxes in my life, not to mention employing others and paying the employer portion of their taxes.
In fact, your idiotic rant makes no sense; everybody everywhere pays the same income taxes that fund the government, so the per-capita contribution of any state is identical. The only reason California and New York contribute more per capita is because salaries are higher there, along with costs of living. But if you propose to give them more power because of it, you are proposing a plutocracy, i.e. rule by the rich. Screw you. You might as well be a Republican.
I think you guys criticising Statler have missed the point of his post. He was getting at Pete Kent. Who hails from OK.
Weren't you, Statler?
@Ken: Yes that might be one area where she could show competence. She seems to have an aversion to governing, or at least working with people she can't directly boss around.
It would be interesting (but sad for the people of Alaska perhaps) if she showed herself to be popular only when oil revenues are going up but a disaster herself when revenues are slack. A good bit of her popularity to date may be based on the revenue cycle (and 'giving money back to the people').
Hey LIB, how DARE you question the patriotism of Okies! We'll purge the sodomites, if you question our patriotism! We're the only county that didn't have ANY counties go for the TERRORIST! MUSLIM EXTREMIST HUSSEIN!
PURGE THE SODOMITES!!!
PALIN/KEYES 2012!!!
KEYES/BACHMANN 2020!!
BACHMANN/MUSGRAVR 2028
OKLAHOMA IS REAL AMERICA!!!! F THE LIBS!!! OKIES ARE THE MOST PATRIOTIC YOU SCUM LIB.
THE OKLAHOMA PANHANDLE, CIMARRON COUNTY, OK, IS THE MOST PATRIOTIC PLACE OF THE NATION.
Okie panhandle = real america
F THE LIBERALS WHO HATE AMERICA!!!
I think what Palin's performance on the ticket showed is a very confusing picture. Huge popularity amongst the right, especially evangelical voters, derision in some circles, a lack of messaging skills, that in the end reflected poorly on the top of the ticket (thinking particularly about that week when Palin was all about rubbishing Obama as 'palling around with terrorists') to someone just not upto the job, the Bush candidate at a bad time to be a Bush candidate.
I still think her best strategy right now is to go back to being Governor for a while. I don't believe that the political landscape will have changed sufficiently by 2012 to permit a run then, so a Senate run in 2014 would cost her the least political capital and potentially allow for a 2016 or 2020 run, whilst not trampling on any more Alaskan GOP feet that she might need to fall back on some day.
My own personal guess is that she won't be President ever, simply because smarter, more intelligent and less tainted GOPers will emerge. She's no Republican version of Obama, however much the right might want her to be. To suggest she might be is to ignore the centrist appeal of Obama.
Tony C
You can say assload but you have to spell a-hole instead of saying asshole? WTF?
And no, not everybody pasy the same kinda tax base. You see, when a state cannot pay it's own bills because it has refused to tax it's citizens to pay for it's services, it goes to the federal gov't to get pork.
Look at the Bridge to Nowhere. How much money do we get out of Alaska in taxes? Not alot. How much money do they take from DC in terms of pork, that whole permanent Alaska Fund, etc? They take more than they give
Republican state government will refuse to tax their citizens, but they still have to maintain their roads, they still have to pay the cops their salaries, there are certain expenses which they simply cannot cut because those expenditures keep the place from going to hell. How do they make up for the shortfall? Pork! They take more than they give!
More liberal governments are less averse to asking the citizens of a given state to pay their own way. Washington State's tax base is high, for example, but they don't ask for alot from DC. Those folks pay their own way. They don't ask the rest of us to pay for their crap.
You know something, Texans are the touchiest bastards I've ever met. All those "Don't With Texas" bumper stickers, all that cowboy swagger. It's all a front, because when somebody says Fuck Louisiana, I don't get all pissed off about it. I don't feel like I gotta get in their face and shout em down for having dared insinuate that there might be problems in my state.
But Texans, so worked up over even the possibility that somebody might suggest that (OMG) Texas might have problems (like over-use of the death penalty, racial profiling, etc), they just gotta get right in your face and shout you down!
Because anyone that criticizes Texas must be stopped! No one can be allowed to suggest that there are problems in Texas!
Know what?
Fuck Texas.
First of all, "nattering nabobs of negativism" was not written by Agnew, though he did say it in a speech. That speech was not written by Pat Buchanan. It was written by William Safire.
Secondly, on-topic, I thought from the beginning that Palin's repeated denunciations of media bias were a poor strategy. In part, it's because she's right. The media, collectively, does have a huge amount of influence. Get them on your side and you can convince the people that Al Gore is a egotistical maniac who thinks he invented the internet, or that John Kerry is a coward who faked injuries just to get medals.
So why did Palin think it was a smart idea to go around and verbally bitch-slap the media every chance she got? In what universe is pissing off the people you rely on to convey your message a smart move?
I'm not saying, necessarily, that McCain/Palin would have had a chance if she'd stayed on-message. It was a pretty deep hole they were in in the end. But Palin never learned the First Rule of Holes: When you're in one, stop digging.
The only thing that screwed Palin was when people figured out that she was a MORON, and would be taking over should McCain die. We'd suffered enough as a nation under an idiot.
Not to mention the fact that she LIED from the moment she was first introduced.
Yeah, the media had it in for her (but that tends to happen when you dodge them, accuse them of sexism if they're not being sexist, and insult their intelligence and standing), however I find it hard to by sympathetic towards a woman who would charge rape victims for their kits and tax payers money for her staying in her own home.
I honestly wish she'd go away.
for God's sake, Sarah (and I mean the God who doesn't condemn people for being something other than white and conservative) - JUST GO AWAY!!!
I think we can acknowledge that Palin had a rough go of things with the media.
But nothing that anyone w/ an ounce of sense would expedt (or any awareness of national politics, which seems to leave out the McCain group)
Before joining the ticket, Palin had never been away from her small town for any great length of time. She hadn’t been involved in any campaign much more professional than a county board commissioner race (also known as Alaska Governor, serving a population of 680,000). -- & some of us would say that McCain's campaign wasn't much more professional.
The national fish bowl is VERY unforgiving to newbies, especially those who are arrogant and combative in their ignorance.
As I said on my blog when she was picked, "She will soon become a punchline, like Quayle." But I never dreamed she'd go so far beyond Quayle.
http://loomisnews.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/how-palin-helps-mccain/
I should add to my comment above, anyone who cares about the Democrats doing well under Obama should do everything in their power to keep Palin front & center as a Republican leader.
She's the best hope for the Republicans to get down to 1/3 of Congress by 2012, if not 1/3 of the popular vote in that election.
@Statler: Good invective, but you fail to address my entire point. Perhaps you are lost in the emotion.
Your position is the equivalent of "pay to play". This isn't about Texas or senatorial corruption or which state deserves money, it is about who gets a voice, and you clearly want to base it on who pays the most money.
That sounds Republican to me. They cater to the rich, they are opposed to progressive taxes, they want to free the rich corporations to treat their workers like indentured servants.
So forget the invective. I'm a Democrat so I'll agree with you, fuck Texas. 55% of us are red neck idiots!
Now lets move on; how does your position differ from just saying whoever pays the most taxes should rule the country? And how does that become a Democracy instead of a cash-caste system?
Did you see Jon Stewart referring to Palin as Blamey Whinehouse. What a riot.
@PeteKent: I've been to Oklahoma, apparently you've gotten some of that wind in you. Blow harder, if you turn red enough maybe you will get the medical attention you need.
A vote for Sarah Palin in the 2012 primaries will be roughly the equivalent of a vote to re-elect Obama. The governor simply does not have what it takes to compete on the national level.
Right now, I'd agree with you. But it's at least two years until the 2012 campaign starts. A lot can change in that time.
Even if Palin isn't electable herself, she'd have another benefit for the Repubs. In 2012, they'll be trying to get back the seats in Congress they lost in '06. Having Palin on the ticket to galvanize the base could help the Republican turnout in House and Senate races, as well as other downticket races.
Palin screwed herself. And now we know who was Nalin' Palin.
Tony,
Look back over my comments and spell it out for me where exactly I said anything about pay-to-play. Did I even suggest anything at all about policy?
I didn't, did I? You put those words in my mouth because you needed something to come back at me for daring to suggest that Texas and other conservative states did not have the right to claim that they are more American than states which actually pay their own way.
Nobody in Seattle is claiming that Washington State is more American than Texas. But ALOT of assholes (not a-holes, assholes) in Dallas are claiming that Texas is more American than Seattle, while they take lots of money from DC in pork to pay for projects they should be funding themselves with their own state taxes. Texas is a blood sucking leech that drains the federal kitty and then slaps the states that do pay their own way as unpatriotic.
I never insinuated that Texas and the other 'Whiny Bitch' states should be excluded from government. I have insinuated and WB States like Texas should shut the fuck up and quit claiming that their irresponsible, slovenly asses are better than the rest of us.
Fuck you, fuck Governor Parry, and most of all,
Fuck Texas!
If Texas had any sense at all, it would be Governor Friedman and not Governor Rick 'Suck DC Dry' Parry.
Sure Palin didn't get good press, sure it wasn't fair. If the media were fair, Gore wouldn't have been painted as stiff and impersonal in 2000, Kerry wouldn't have been called "out of touch" in 2004. If the media were a fair arbiter, they never would have picked up the "swift boat" story in the first place, because it was an outright lie.
None of this stuff seemed to bother conservatives before it stopped benefiting them. Republicans seem to define Irony and/or Karmic Justice.
Sadly the media is run up by Humans. Humans happen to be petty, vindictive, fallible, and biased.
That is why the candidate that makes a better impression on the people in the media is the candidate that wins.
All the accusations of rough treatment always seem to come back to Trig. Palin goes there again in the Zeigler interview. But there's a couple of reasons that story has legs.
1) Palin has shown herself to be a classic narcissist, with all the history rewriting and pathological lying that goes with it. So when she says "trust me, I'm his mother", people automatically think "oh yeah, like you sold the jet on eBay, or opposed the brigde to nowhere, or....". She simply hasn't earned any credibility.
2) She's offered no other proof beyond "trust me". Medical records would do it, but despite promises to make them public she produced only a letter from her doctor, a personal friend who has been cronyistically appointed to her current position by Palin.
3) The alternative to believing the blog rumors is to believe Palin when she says she went into labor in Texas, delivered a speech, drove past a hospital to the airport, flew to Seattle for a four hour layover, flew to Anchorage, bypassed the hospital there that had a neonatal ICU, and drove 45 minutes to a remote and relatively less resourced local hospital to have her baby with her doctor buddy and no-one else present, and then, after 24 hours of a fifth labour at 44 years of age (!!), had the baby electively induced a month prematurely at 4am. I mean WTF? See point 1.
So the story lives on. Palin could kill it stone dead any time she wanted, but she doesn't because she likes playing the "media victim" card, because (in her mind) that absolves her from legitimate media criticism, of which there is plenty. Imagine if she didn't have the Trig rumours to prove how nasty the media was. It suits her very well to have the story kicking along, "proving" that the media lie about her, so she lets it.
THOSE are the kind of skills that got her where she is today - not intelligence, but rat cunning.
@john- like I said she is a narrowly social being. She would do very well in a pack of spotted hyenas. She seems to have an absolute lack of curiosity about the workings of the world around her because the social strategies she uses have been so successful in narrow social circle.
As far as I can tell she has absolutely no sense of humor- Her only remotely successful attempt was to correct Joe Biden during the debate by say " you have it wrong- It goes 'Drill baby Drill'". And that was the most offensive joke I heard during the whole campaign.
I am no fan of jokes like "Nailin Palin" but after that "Drill Baby Drill" and all the winking...
John, the only problem is that point #2 is exactly the same one that the "birthers" state when talking about Obama's Birth Certificate.
The logic behind it, to "prove your innocence", is flawed. The burden of proof is on the accuser.
You/We need someone to openly state that Gov. Palin *didn't* have Trig, and so far, no one is doing that. ... So, for better or worse, this is as far as it goes. Idle internet speculation.
@Statler: Throw a fit. What a baby!
I didn't put the words "pay to play" in your mouth, I said what you advocate is the equivalent of pay to play. Read the comment, asshole. (Now you are an asshole; "a-hole" was intended as a friendly intensity reduction when talking about you, I used "assload" when talking about my own taxes. But subtlety is lost on ranting assholes.)
You are just obviously an idiot. How much states get is a matter of horse-trading and need; only an idiot would dispute that the national income taxes are identical everywhere.
And your invective IS equivalent to pay-to-play, because you want the people that pay less to "shut the fuck up". What else is that but suppression of free speech? Why not just say only white male land owners should be allowed to talk, they pay most the taxes after all.
I have yet to meet a Texan that says Texas is "more American" than other states. We say Texas is better than other states, and as for your Kinky Friedman reference, I have been in the room when Kinky said it himself.
BTW, if you actually attended one of his rallies, you would see pretty quickly that a Kinky government would be a disaster. Kinky was quite literally running on jokes and stories. He held a rally at my university which I attended, and although I walked into the auditorium with a very open mind, in about ten minutes he managed to close it. Among the group of six undergraduates with me, about half of them had the same reaction.
I am a fan of both Ventura and Franken, but they campaigned on serious policy with a dash of good humor. Kinky Friedman campaigned on nothing but jokes and stories. There were 30 professors in that room and a few hundred kids, and his whole bit was basically a twenty-minute stand up routine, complete with sound effects and music. I prefer out of the box independent candidates, he could have gotten $50 or $100 from me that day, but I am not giving money to a joker that can't even take his own candidacy seriously. I donated to the Democrat, as I always do. If we are going to lose, I'd rather my donation help build a party with a chance.
You see, I'M not the Federal government. The First Amendment says CONGRESS shall pass no law inhibiting free speech. Last I checked, I'm not Congress. Which means I have every right to tell you to shut the fuck up.
I'm telling you to take off that stupid hat, the one with the Don't Mess With Texas logo. Because you know what? Your state is messed up, and instead of fixing it's problems, you obfuscate with this wounded, "We're more American than San Francisco" attitude. You're not.
@Statler: I don't wear a hat. You're stereotyping knows no bounds, apparently. I spent my one and only two-week honeymoon in Napa Valley and San Francisco. A beautiful place that was a lot of fun. If anything, San Francisco is freer than Texas, but it did not occur to me at the time to compare our "American-ness".
The places Palin refers to as the "real America" are the towns that fit her religious conservative values. Personally, if that is the real American, I prefer the fake America: I, and many, many others here in Texas, are atheist liberals. Perhaps we live in an oasis of unAmerican activity. Thank the fates for that.
When you say you are just as American as the places Palin lauds, you are saying you are just as religious, close-minded and stupidly conservative as any small town dumpling. That kind of fits with our conversation so far.
Got to say I've been a little surprised by her sudden interest in revisiting the issue of media treatment this soon after the election. I thought that she was a bit more savvy than this. With all the other events happening here and abroad, this seems like a really self-indulgent and/or weak display on her part at this time. Especially with her dismal performances only months behind her.
I think this media-victim tactic might have been effective in conjunction with a larger strategy that had her lying relatively low for a while, and building some kind of quiet credibility. Working on policies and perhaps expanding her resume some. In short, a tacit acknowledgment of perceived shortcomings that I suspect would have played well with people beyond her base and may have allowed her to address her earlier media treatment with some new-found respectability and allowed her to drum up some sympathy.
This media=unfair-to-Palin tour only confirms most people's suspicions that she is not qualified for the office she sought, and that voting for someone else was the correct decision. I can certainly understand why the McCain camp "handled" her the way they did. Palin is starting to look more like a spoiler in the 2012 presidential primaries than a viable national candidate. That is unless the RNC is able to convince her to sit the next election out.
Tony,
We're gonna go back and forth on this for a while. And all we're going to do is increase the amount of bullshit in the comments section. I have a problem with the Texas that presents itself to America- Land of Bush, Land of Pray-to-Play, Land of Family Values that keep people from forming families if they're gay.
I'm not a fan of the Don't Mess With Texas set. If that's not you, then I have no argument with you. That's the Texas we all see, and those are the people I've been ranting against.
You sit there with this wounded, "I don't believe he made fun of my home state" look on your face. Dude, it's a piece of land-which is essentially just dirt. Why do you go apeshit if anyone criticizes it? The only states that do this are the Sarah Palin states. Seriously. We get folks down here from all the world over coming to see the French Quarter, and I've met folks from places I can't even pronounce. Yet, the only ones that get touchy over people criticizing their home state are people from states that take more out in pork than they put in in taxes. They WHINE. Endlessly. 'The south shall rise again' my ass. The South can't get up off the couch and set the bag of chips down long enough to do anything.
You know, people are going to criticize you in life no matter where you go. get used to it. People bag on New Orleans when they come here to visit us, and I don't feel the need to run out in the streets and get in everyone's face that ever says, "hey. There's something wrong here". They could be right, they could be wrong. It doesn't matter most of the time.
Now, we can drag this out forever, and I can demonstrate my remarkable ability to post "Fuck Texas" after every one of your posts, and make this thread longer and longer and longer as we go back and forth, which each idiot trying to get the last word in, or you can just let it go.
My fight isn't with Ann Richards supporters. It,s with the George Bush/Rick parry crowd that we all see when we see your state, much the same way that people will see Wyoming as Cheney country no matter who else is from there. Lotsa people think Louisiana is Jindal country too, and for the most part, they're right.
So, it's not fuck you. It's Fuck Texas.
@Statler: I'm not trying to get the last word in, I'm trying to point out that you are not just stereotyping, but that your stereotyping is leading you to faulty conclusions, which you will not admit, because you prefer to be stubborn.
Your assertion is patently false; do you think Mainers won't take issue if you say Fuck Maine!? I think they will, because they don't think you are talking about a piece of dirt, "Fuck Maine" is talking about Mainers, and that means them. So they will say Fuck You back.
SO I don't believe you, I think you are misled by observational bias; you WANT to think only poorer states get touchy, so that's all you remember. Or perhaps those are the only states you criticize, and so those are the only ones you see getting touchy.
In short, you don't know what the hell you are talking about when you talk about Texas. You don't live here. I've been all over the country and our city denizens in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and Austin are indistinguishable from Chicago, LA, St. Louis, New York or a dozen other cities. Our small towns aren't much different than small towns anywhere either.
Whatever fucked up notion you have of Texas is based in fiction, not fact. And don't try to pretend that when you say Fuck Texas you are talking about dirt, you are talking about Texans, and that means you are talking about me.
No, we cannot acknowledge that Sarah Palin had a rough go of it in the media. The media bent over backwards to make her look good. She was appallingly... oh, I just don't have the energy anymore. The sooner she can sink back into obscurity, the better.
@Statler: And BTW, about that "Don't Mess with Texas" campaign: That is just an anti-litter campaign, you dolt. In the first five years that it ran, roadside litter in Texas declined 72% and the number of empty cans along Texas roadsides declined 81%. This was a fantastically successful ad campaign, and the bang for the buck was ten times as much as using law enforcement and fines. It totally blew away the previous "Give a Hoot -- Don't Pollute" campaign in effectiveness.
The author of that campaign was Dan Syrek. Don't Mess with Texas, Statler: We've got academic minds here that know a little bit about working the human psychology angle.
But you are just trying to get the last word in. You can't let go. You've never been to Maine, and I think most Mainers don't see the state they were born in as something that needs constant defense. This really is a phenomenon unique to states which advocate for the states' rights doctrine heavily, largely the South and a few states in the mountain West. It's not as common as you think.
You are being oversensitive and over defensive. And if you claim that the Texas I am associating with Texas is fictional, then I guess George W Bush is a work of fiction as well? Was he just some delusion the entire planet has been gripped with, of which only you were sane enough to escape? Karl Rove is just a figment of our imagination?
First you have to make shit up to attack me like this whole pay-to-play thing and then the freedom of speech thing and now you accuse me of being delusional? You're the same guy that thought the First Amendment meant nobody had the right to tell you to shut up. I assure you, your skills at fictional writing are far superior to mine.
Now, are you going to let it go, or are we going to do this back and forth thing where you make shit up in a pathetic attempt to defend the honor of a clod of dirt, or can you let it go?
Fuck Texas.
Buddy, it looks like you can't let go. Just keep repeating your lies, I'm looking forward to it!
You don't know what you are talking about; you have no idea what states I have been in, and again you claim you are just insulting a clod of dirt when in fact clods of dirt don't get government funds, people do. You are insulting people. And I didn't make ANYTHING up, you started out with an idiotic stance and YOU can't let go of it. So pout and scream and throw a fit. It won't make you any more right.
Fuck Texas.
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@Statler: Well, see, now that's progress. I have left you empty and speechless, all you have left is your self-appointed, self-important catch-phrase.
So let me take the time to reiterate: I didn't make anything up, I drew an analogy between your demanding that welfare states "shut the fuck up" and pay-to-play. An Analogy. Based on what I see as an equivalence. You are basing people's rights to speak on whether they receive more or less money from the government. You are using wealth as a basis for controlling speech, or societal value, or the right to make their voices heard.
This indicates your fundamental failure to grasp the impact of equal rights for all, poor and rich alike. You don't even agree with equality; your position is not fundamentally different in any way than the states you are complaining about!
They claim they have better moral value, you claim they should shut the fuck up, because they haven't paid for the right to speak. Your view of the world has just as much inherent inequality than theirs does.
You can't just knock down their false claim that they speak for the real America; you end up essentially making the claim that only the non-welfare states are the real America. I'm not saying you wrote that, that is just how I see the essence of your demand that they should "shut the fuck up".
So, go ahead with your next Fuck Texas. Every post, you prove to readers you have nothing left but your pathetic anger and your security blanket of mindless repetition.
Fuck Texas
Poor Statler. You should get an aluminum hat, Statler! Standing on the cyber-corner shouting at passersby. Now, that's the real America, folks! This is why we need universal health care, so people like Statler, suffering from overwhelming irrational anger, can get the help they need.
Fuck Texas
Too bad Statler can't be as original as his muppet namesakes. But perhaps subconsciously he chose that namesake because he knows he is a puppet himself; driven by others completely outside his control.
Witness his projection on to me: He claims I "just can't let it go," that I must have the last word, when in fact that is his own emotion. He can't control himself. He is so obsessed with getting the last word, it doesn't even have to be communication anymore; just a repetition of the same boring phrase, from the same boring person.
As old as the Muppet Show is, I imagine Statler is a poor lonely old man clinging to the past, posting anonymously into thin air, shouting at the unfairness of it all, spraying others with his cancerous spittle.
Poor, pathetic Statler. A good representative name, though: An old man near the end of life, with nothing better to do than heckle the stage from the balcony. Too bad he doesn't have an actual friend like Waldorf.
So come on Statler, don't be shy. Don't be ashamed of your self-destructive obsession. Tell us what you really think!
Oh wait, I forgot. You can't really think, all you can do is vomit up the same thing time after time, like a child that thinks the victory is in having the last word.
It is not, the victory is mine, I have reduced you to senselessness. You can't argue with me because you know I am right, your own posts are filled with lies and I pointed them out, so here you are, left with nothing but curses.
"Fuck You" is a common last resort when sore losers give up the game. So give us one more, I'll take it as your surrender and admission that I am right, you are wrong, then you can stomp off the field in defeat and I'll laugh at you. Sound like a plan?
Fuck Texas
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