A new poll from Politico suggests that the public does not see Barack Obama's stimulus package in the same category as one of the myriad number of bailouts that the Congress has passed, and that Republicans (or Democrats) counting on a populist backlash against the measure have their work cut out for them.
Politico's poll (.pdf), conducted by the firm Garin-Hart-Yang, reports that 79 percent of Americans favor the stimulus, versus just 17 percent opposed. I would take some issue with GHY's question wording, as it characterizes the stimulus in rather flattering terms ("a proposal to create jobs and strengthen the economy") but does not mention the stimulus's pricetag; this is not too far from message testing as opposed to opinion polling. Nevertheless, it suggests that -- if framed appropriately by the administration -- the stimulus could be quite popular indeed, a finding also implied by other surveys.
Perhaps the more interesting component of the Politico survey, however, is a series of questions asking Americans what sort of policies they think might or might not be effective at improving the economy. The percentage of respondents saying they expect a particular policy to be "very" or "fairly" effective is provided below:Stricter enforcement and stronger regulations on 74
Obviously, some of these responses are a bit contradictory -- the public wants balanced budgets, for instance, but they also want certain types of spending. It's interesting, though, that tax reductions actually aren't all that popular, considering that lower taxes almost always tend to poll well. It's also interesting that, from among the government spending programs that the survey addresses, alternative energy is by some margin the most popular.
businesses, particularly in the financial sector, to
prevent future abuses
A major government investment in energy to develop 66
alternatives to imported oil and make the United
States a world leader in alternative energy innovation
A long-term effort to balance the budget and lower the 66
national debt
Lower taxes for the middle class 59
An across-the-board reduction in federal government 58
spending
A major government investment in worker training and 57
re-training to ensure that America has a work force
prepared to meet the demands of a modern economy
A major government investment in infrastructure such 57
as roads, bridges, and mass transit to create jobs in
the short term and a strong, vibrant, modern economy
in the long term
A major government commitment to provide more 54
funding and support to community colleges, to ensure
more workers have access to training and education
Lower taxes for all Americans 50
I'm not sure why Obama isn't doing more to highlight the green portions of the stimulus bill. The public seems to tolerate the spending on bridges and highways -- but they also see it, perhaps not wholly improperly, as makework. The long-run benefits of the alternative energy programs, on the other hand, are far more intuitively appealing. If the central critique of the stimulus is that the debt we're creating will be burdensome to future generations, that concern could be mitigated if the spending in question is portrayed as a down payment made on behalf of those future generations toward cleaning up the environment and mitigating dependence on fossil fuels. It also provides for some sense of purpose to the stimulus: we'll come out of this, Obama can say, with the greenest, most energy-independent major industrial economy in the world, etc. etc.
Note: See also the Rasmussen poll on the stimulus, which also suggests that a majority of the public sees major government intervention is necessary and that as many people are concerned about the government doing too little as doing too much.
1.08.2009
On Stimulus, It's Easy Being Green
by Nate Silver @ 7:35 PM...see also energy, environment, messaging, stimulus
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I've hoped for a while now that Obama promised a "Green Deal" in one of his mayor speeches... it didn't happen so far, but the inaugural speech is still too come...
Btw, a change of energy policy was a slogan of both presidential campaigns, so it's not THAT surprising to see it being so popular. On the other hand, only Obama favored tighter regulations on businesses, and seeing it on top of that list shows the kind of impact the financial crisis had on peoples´ minds and who they blame for that.
Personally, I'm worried at how big the national debt is getting. It's going to come back to hurt us... it already is coming back to hurt us now.
WV: rapfuns... that's what congress is having right now if you add an "e"
Harry Reid grows a testile
can someone please reconcile these seemingly contradictory beliefs.
how do you cut across the board spending and then have major investments i.e. infrstructure, funding for college, worker training?
good luck selling that to the public.
@Statler. What's a 'testile'?
forgot to mention all this and lowering taxes. maybe obama does walk on water.
7th!
I suspect that Obama is becoming increasingly more aware that damage control is going to preempt any optimistic policy change. Unfortunate. I hope my man has some good rabbits in his hat.
wv: packoveg - newfangled vegetable packing machine
can someone please reconcile these seemingly contradictory beliefs.
how do you cut across the board spending and then have major investments i.e. infrstructure, funding for college, worker training?
You don't. People can like things that aren't simultaneously possible, while recognizing they aren't going to happen at once. For example, if you asked people "would you like to lose weight?" and "do you like to eat dessert?" lots of them would honestly answer yes to both, but that doesn't mean they expect to be able to do both at the same time.
Part of leadership is building support for the things you're doing, but another part of it is convincing them it's okay to defer other things they like when you can't do them all at once.
re: Shameless Self-Promotion
Nate,
You pussy.
No comments allowed on your "vote for me" post.
Shame on you.
,dave
WV: chopo = Italian for chop
The public is scared, as the press is scaring the hell out of people and our culture of layoffs means everyone knows someone getting laid off.
Remember how much money a growing economy can produce in tax revenue, and we will get back there - eventually.
On an unrelated note, isn't it time to change "provisional" electoral votes in the upper left corner? They were counted today in Congress, 365-173 is the official result.
@livemild
"how do you cut across the board spending and then have major investments i.e. infrstructure, funding for college, worker training?"
I think that if asked that question directly Obama would refer to his appointment of Nancy Killefer to this new position Chief Performance Officer.
http://change.gov/newsroom/entry/new_and_more_efficient_ways_of_getting_the_job_done/
I am not saying that I believe the argument. I am just guessing that one can- with spreadsheet in hand and some credibility- make the argument that substantial amounts of wasteful spending can be cut by going "line by line" through "The Budget" (ie across the board) and the recovered/unspent money can be redirected to more fruitful efforts.
"During the campaign, I said that we must scour this budget, line-by-line, eliminating what we don’t need, or what doesn’t work, and improving the things that do."
"Nancy is an expert in streamlining processes and wringing out inefficiencies so that taxpayers and consumers get more for their money."
So whether this whole scale efficiency push works the way Obama is characterizing it- well we'll see- or may be we wont see. I am not sold on the transparency promises yet either. Unprecedented transparency is a very very low bar to set.
mompkic- the imperative form of mom can you pick me up at....
Paul Krugman has been making a lot of good arguments about how the Stimulus Plan may actually be too small(as initially proposed). I tend to believe him, not only because he won a Nobel Prize, but also because he's been right with about every economic prediction he's made for as long as I've been reading him. The good news is that he may be worrying unnecessarily.
It seems interesting that the majority of the criticism for Obama's Stimulus Plan is coming from Democrats. I'm wondering if Obama deliberately lowballed his proposal, with the expectation that congressional Democrats would bulk up the plan with other spending. I'm wondering what the odds are that they can get away with adding that spending into the bill. Its going to be a very fine line they're going to have to walk to balance the need for spending on infrastructure with the need to avoid being characterized as pork barrelers.
As to the green jobs comment, Obama only talked that to death in the campaign. He did highlight on CNBC and in his speech, as a concrete saving/investment aspect, making gov't buildings energy efficient.
No one, by the way, thinks you can avoid deficit spending right now and reign in spending. Obama hasn't said he will do both. Rather, what he's said is we will spend what we need to in order to save our economy, do our best to do it well, and at the same time do all we can to change the way we do business in more normal circumstances to get the wasteful efforts of the last 8 years under control.
I love the idea of a Government Performance Officer, by the way. If done correctly, she will basically be in position to challenge a ton of sacred cows throughout government. You'd be amazed at the amount of stuff in government that's done because what's always been done becomes, over time, "the right way" or "the only way."
Wow, 23% of the country at least thinks that *both* "a major government investment in energy" and "an across the board reduction in federal spending" will help the economy. That really screws with my trust in scientific polling.
this is sorta like the whole BCS Football 'Championship'
FL is ordained the national champ due to the most favorable media coverage & Polls + 'puters...
tonights game was a sloppy mess of mediocrity - neither team looked 'great' let alone very good
meanwhile, Utah is undefeated & USC would clearly wipe the floor with any of these other teams in a real national 8-team playoff imho
in other words, polls [& pols] say you what you want them to tell ya - rather than the truth or fact which requires testing & proof...
WV - 'andling' - what a compassionate conservative does when they do not give an 'h'
@mlnmatt
I think the idea goes something like this:
I can cut coupons, minimize vacation spending, cook more, buy and freeze food stuffs that are on sale, make Christmas gifts, remember to turn the lights out and turn the heat down, and do lots of other things that reduce (cut) my spending. I can then use the money I have not spent in these other areas to buy my son a computer to help him develop essential skills.
Very simplistic I admit- but it could help and it might not hurt the situation we are in.
This idea is not absurd, abstract, or even difficult to understand- most people who live on a budget readily cut spending to redirect funds to important or pressing areas.
I do not think anyone in this country is under the delusion that government spending practices cannot be improved. And it seems most "policy" experts and professional economists think we need large scale deficit spending in addition that. So go figure- let's hope it works.
@BBiI- Its good to hear that you love the idea of the new position, Chief Performance Officer. Do you know anything about NK?
I am skeptical only because in my limited experience new positions with impressive titles are usually associated with completely unrealistic and ill-conceived job description. Thankfully, thus far, unrealistic and ill-conceived are not adjectives I readily associate with the President Elect' s actions or statements. Warren and Salazar not withstanding.
bwdIk
MHZ
I concur with your skepticism re: new positions & titles & unrealistic/ill conceived job descriptions...
glad you noted that for Obama you hedged your bets re: Warren & Salazar - but there are a number of others that at least rate a small 'q' as well [including Panetta]
Barack also stepped into it by dissing Buriss initially, then having to backtrsck - when it was obvious he should either stay completely out of it or go all in...
Best thing the Obama can do with the stroke of a pen [I believe] ?
get rid of the entire ridiculous 'HOMELAND SECURITY' apparatus & apartchiks...
first, it reeks of the Third Reich
second, it is tied to Bush/Cheney
third, talk about all that missmatched baggage & fear mongering & loss of civil liberties...
Roads, bridges and mass-transit are only "make work" until the damn bridge falls down killing several people and making everybody get off a major interstate highway and take a detour causing massive traffic tieups on secondary roads for the next 8 months while they fix the bridge!
Then it's a total disaster that causes tens of millions of dollars in economic losses and major problems with commuting etc.
I vividly remember when this happened on I-95 in Greenwich CT when a bridge span fell into the Mianus River.
Like now, Congress wanted to ignore infrastructure repairs for years in favor of NEW spending. Nobody ever gets any credit for a refurbished bridge that DOESN'T fall down. It's much jucier for to be the Congressman who brought the new road/medical center/pork-barrel project, etc. to the district. With any luck he might get something named after him.
But, infrastructure is HUGE in terms of the economy. If we had decent high speed mass-transit like Europe and Japan it would make a major difference in the economy, not just in helping fight global warming.
But, as a start we can get decent roads and bridges. And it won't be cheap because like everything else useful, the Republicans never bother when they're planning their foreign wars and useless star-wars space weapons programs, to keep the trains going and the bridges in good repair.
DCM-
So what do you see as the problem with Panetta?
Did you see the DiFi link on the RMS msNBC website?
Actually I think Obama's early comments on the Burris thing were not so bad. Very complementary to Burris and deferential to the Senate. To me that is a good way to keep it at a distance. bwdIk
Cugel- I really like the idea of weatherizing buildings. Road and bridges yep you are right gasoline powered cars are here for the near-term and electric cars could be just around the corner. but I get freaked out at a federal effort to establish and maintain personal electronic health records. I can see the benefits to establishing and maintaining electronic data archives- it is hugely important. But personal medical record on file and in electronic form at a centralized federal repository. damn that gives me the hebegebes (sp?). I really have no idea what improvements in "Health IT" is going to look like as part of this stimulus package but man oh man talk about challenges in privacy protection.
wv-pethot? where do these come from? ok I have to shut the computer off- good night all
Looks to me like Obama has an overwhelming mandate to emulate FDR and JFK. That means rebuilding America's infrastructure, creating green jobs as part of a 21st century New Deal, and fighting for "peace in our time." It also means radically reforming the CIA and cutting the military budget. Give it a rest with the Abe Lincoln shit and do what the American people elected you to do. Otherwise they would have voted for Bush's 3rd term, correct?
If Obama keeps trying to emulate the neo-liberal Reagan/Bush/Clinton years, the country is fucked. Plain and simple.
Actually, it's the neo-conservative Reagan/Bush/Clinton years, but Dubya is the poster boy for neo-conservatism, and he makes his Republican predecessors look like DLC Democrats.
Nobel economist Stiglitz, key Senate Democrats, criticize Obama stimulus plan as wrong-headed, not enough
Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz said Obama’s plan is “not enough” because it puts too much into tax cuts rather than higher spending.
“Clearly more is going to be needed,” Stiglitz, a professor at Columbia University in New York who advised Obama during the campaign, told reporters at a conference in Paris today. “With a lot of the money going to tax cuts, they won’t have the effect some would hope.”
Congressional Skeptics
A top congressional Democrat also questioned the potential impact of the tax reductions Obama outlined, which would return $500 to individuals and $1,000 to families through changes in withholding.
“I’m very skeptical that’s going to make much difference,” Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad of North Dakota told reporters in Washington. “For the average family, it’s going to add $20 a week -- I mean how much lift is that going to give?"
More Democrats are criticizing the plan:
Sen John Kerry, D-Mass., said, "I'd rather spend the money on the infrastructure, on direct investment, on energy conversion, on other kinds of things that much more directly, much more rapidly and much more certainly create a real job."
....
Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., said he doubted that a modest tax cut would change consumers' spending habits.
"In tough times people don't respond all that well to marginal changes, such as a small amount of money added per paycheck," Wyden said.
http://www.americablog.com/2009/01/nobel-economist-stiglitz-key-senate.html
Stiglitz SHOULD have been part of the in-coming economic team, instead of a moron like Larry Summers, who allegedly doesn't like Stiglitz.
Obama administration to work with Hamas?
If this (UK) Guardian report is true, even indirect talks would be a major change in policy by the US. Clearly the existing approach to addressing the problems in Gaza and the region are failing though enhancing the power of Hamas will come with a cost.
http://www.americablog.com/2009/01/obama-administration-to-work-with-hamas.html
thanks porridge.
good to know that im not alone in thinking this is way too small of a package to help.
i would dearly love a high speed train. dump the homeland security garbage and talking with your "enemies" . change America-PLEASE>
The stimulus is just another tax to replace the other taxes the government squandered on Iraq, gave away to corporations and the rich to pay for their eight years of tax cuts, and allowed Wall Street to steal from citizens.
I know they aren't asking us to pay for it now, but this is how the theft works; when they can't tax us directly they will tax us indirectly. Every dollar government spends is money out of our pockets. With 100M households in the USA, the 800B bailout and another 800B stimulus comes to $16,000 per household in the USA.
That is real money being spent and going into real pockets. That is what the incompetence of government is going to cost us. Some of us can stand that kind of hit, for most it means losing a house or all their savings.
I am a Democrat and Obama voter, but I still see the pattern. Take Social Security. It doesn't provide security anymore, due to government incompetence at regulating corporations or the medical industry. So lets add Medicare on top. Still no security? Tell people to tax themselves with a 401K. What, our incompetence at regulating Wall Street turned 401Ks into garbage? Hmmm... Guess we should use the taxpayer's money to bail out the rampant speculators. Wait, that didn't work either, and now people are losing jobs at record rates? Let's extend unemployment benefits. No good? How about spending taxpayer money to stimulate the economy? Maybe that will turn the tide...
Government as a whole has no incentive to be competent or rational, that is the problem.
Nate: You can remove the "(Provisional)" from the Obama-McCain electoral vote count (365-173) pie chart. It's official now.
U.S. Job Losses Highest Since 1945
We're gonna need a bigger boat!
Did Bike Paths get named specifically in any of the stimulus plans? Can high-speed-train planning be coupled to bike-path planning.
Throw in camp-sight planning and we might have a little revolution in family vacationing-
Can somebody do a poll on great achievements in technology?
I would hope that bicycles would make the top 10- but probably not:(
wv-schot- German espresso?
It's interesting, though, that tax reductions actually aren't all that popular, considering that lower taxes almost always tend to poll well.
Well, if the phrasing in the summary table matches the phrasing in the poll, maybe a lot of respondents read “Lower taxes for all Americans” as specifically meaning “lower taxes for the wealthy”. I bet the numbers would be higher if the phrasing had been “lower taxes for working Americans” or “lower taxes for middle-class Americans” (particularly since everybody in America seems to want to think they’re middle-class). Personally, I probably would not have chosen that with any of those phrasings, but if I read the question as code for lowering taxes for the wealthy (as opposed to Obama’s campaign language of lowering taxes for the middle class and raising them for the wealthy) I’d have had a knee-jerk negative response. And in fact that’s how I read it at first glance.
@PG- Is all of TARP spent? Any chance that BHO is counting on another 250+ billion for "Discretionary Spending"- I mean congress already coughed it up?
Ever read the piece on canned mackerel as an exchange tool? Money is Material but wow it is so unreal.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122290720439096481.html
Wow, 23% of the country at least thinks that *both* "a major government investment in energy" and "an across the board reduction in federal spending" will help the economy. That really screws with my trust in scientific polling.
Not with mine.
Putting aside the obvious point above that people can want to "lose weight" and "eat dessert" at the same time...
Right off the top, this country spends far more on the military than is necessary for defense.
Now, of course, some of it has some cross-over benefit, but much of it is almost pure waste.
We could cut military spending and increase taxes on the most well off, while decreasing taxes on some others and initiating new, less costly but more beneficial programs, in other sectors.
If you're not satisfied with the scope of Obama's plan, don't just bemoan it on 538, write to your congressperson/senators. I think that we are going to need the political will the most in congress. I mean, Obama's probably watering this thing down so it will pass quickly. We must let congress know that we want drastic measures, and quickly. If the congress feels significant pressure from their electorate, they will vote and prepare bills accordingly. They are, after all, our employees.
W.V. paleep: some Alaskan creature's last word?
@IAN: If you're not satisfied [...] Don't just bemoan it on 538, write to your congressperson / senators.
Ha! You are more likely to have an impact on 538. Look, I read your post, and I'm probably just one of at least 20.
How many people do you think read the typical letter to a congressman? I'll tell you, the average is less than ONE.
When your letter reaches a politician's office, an intern or other low-level staffer typically scans it to see if you actually require the services of the politician to get medical care or whatever. If not, your letter will not even be fully read, the staffer will categorize your position as if in a poll, and the summary of all such positions that rise above a certain level will come to the attention of the politician. For example, "we've gotten about 30 letters demanding you vote against FISA, and 10 in favor."
That's it, if you are that lucky. Congressmen and Senators will cast their votes based on polls, peer pressure and horse-trading.
If you really want to impact your Congressman, organize an actual protest at his offices and figure out how to get some media coverage. Deliver a petition with demands or something.
In the political mind, people fall into three classes: Significant threat, significant ally, or insignificant. You must rise to the level of significance to influence them, otherwise you are safely ignored. One way to do that is through media. Media attention is always a significant event for a pol, to be feared or embraced.
In any case, a post on 538 has a near zero chance of influence, but that chance is still about 100 times the chance that a letter to a pol advocating some position will influence anything.
Well, so much for the stimulus package!
We've now officially lost 2.6 million jobs in 2008. Bush is now officially Herbert Hoover.
"NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Another sobering government labor report released Friday showed the economy lost 524,000 jobs in December, bringing 2008's total job loss to just below 2.6 million.
Last year's steep drop in employment marked the highest yearly job-loss total since 1945, the year in which World War II ended.
Obama was talking about a 2.5 million job stimulus over 4 years! Well, we've lost OFFICIALLY that many jobs just in 2008! And that official unemployment figure doesn't even take into account the marginally/under employed, those who've simply given up seeking employment, and those who've taken jobs at a drastic pay-cut that doesn't support their family but statistically are fully "employed," all of which means we can just double the unemployment rate to get the "real" unemployment rate.
"According to the Labor Department's monthly jobs report, the unemployment rate rose to 7.2% last month from 6.7% in November and higher than economists' forecasts of 7%."
So, we've lost 0.5% of the labor force in ONE MONTH!
The true picture is much worse than this though, because layoffs don't happen instantaneously. Companies don't just say "well sales declined so let's immediately lay people off. They try and hold onto their work force for a time, and only at the end of the quarter or years' end when the auditor's report comes back and the company says "we lost $X this quarter and need to cut our costs by 35% immediately, do they layoffs happen."
Thus, we're now seeing layoffs from June and July's downturn, not the downturn in November/December.
In short, the job-loss figures are PRE-CRASH and will be MUCH worse in March and April, when the next wave of layoffs from the October/November financial crash hits.
Even $2 trillion isn't going to be enough now. We're officially in Great Depression territory. Obama is going to have to hold summit conferences with major industries and create a national labor policy with set hiring and federally subsidized production goals, i.e. managed capitalism to stimulate employment in addition to the direct government stimulus.
It's going to take massive and ongoing federal government intervention in the economy to bring us out of this depression. Everything is going to change. "Free-market capitalism," which was never really "free" since at least WWII, (since the economy was propped up by massive government military spending over decades) is now going to have to be restructured and all the conservative economists' assumptions about the way markets function and the role of government must be thrown out the window.
The problem is that there are too many people who don't grasp the depth of the crisis and are too wedded to the failed ideas of the past and so they propose more of the same medicine that got us into this mess to begin with: cut taxes, restrain government spending, less regulation to "stimulate" production, the "invisible hand," let the markets govern the level of production, etc.
IT's all crap and we can't afford it anymore. Time to jettison the right-wing ideological baggage once and for all and come up with a new model that works and is sustainable.
Cugel-
The even worse news is the historic low in hours worked by those who are employed (33.3 hours/week). This likely pre-sages more layoffs to come.
Harry Reid Gets Slammed
...and all the conservative economists' assumptions about the way markets function and the role of government must be thrown out the window.
Only a boob who is completely clueless about economics and markets would rant so haphazardly and recklessly as Cugel does about "conservative viewpoints" of the free market.
I resurrect my threat from yesterday that should I ever encounter Cugel in the real world, I'd have no second thoughts about gutting him like a fish.
One more thing...
This site has already morphed from 'Electoral Projections Done Right' to 'Politics Done Right.'
I'm waiting for 'Economics Done Right' any day now.
Only a pompous and egomaniacal twit like Nate could go so far and be grounded in so little.
MR, which part of your economics masters advocated gutting like a fish those whom you don't agree with?
And to pick up from where I left off yesterday, where do you stand on Friedman v Keynes?
There's a very British economists' joke in there somewhere - a few years ago UK politicians named a (now very successful) new city Milton Keynes......
I think downplaying the green parts of the stimulus is the right move since the stimulus is already very popular anyway. This is Obama can save the "green is good" political capital for initiatives that actually need it. Otherwise, future environmental legislation could be greeted by the public with antipathy: "we already passed that stimulus with green stuff in it, isn't that ENOUGH to do for the environment?"
the second sentence should read "this way," not "this is." Sorry about that :)
Mule Rider -
I resurrect my threat from yesterday that should I ever encounter Cugel in the real world, I'd have no second thoughts about gutting him like a fish.
My dislike of flame wars is outweighed by my extreme sick and tiredness of cheap, cowardly, anonymous threats of violence by wingnuts.
Damn, it's ironic. Half the time you right wingers are squealing about being "bullied", and the other half the time, you're making sleazy threats of violence, sometimes coded, sometimes not.
If you do it in the real world, bwahahahaha, but if one of you chickenhawks ever actually did, that would make a criminal deserving of a good stiff prison term.
Please note -
1) This message does not contain any threats of violence.
2) This message does not contain any "ad hominem" whatsoever. My condemnation of cheap threats is coherent and consistent throughout. "Ad hominem" is a type of logic error, which is not present here.
3) You may choose to construe my sharply critical words for threat makers as "name calling". I don't care if you do. My point is valid.
I'm such a tolerant liberal, I invite you to apologize to Cugel and admit that you were an ass to resort to threats, in which case I'll more or less retract what I say here, to some degree. I'm not holding my breath.
Joe Biden held a county council position not a city council position.
Also it might be cool to see a similar graphic representing losing candidates. What former positions did losing Senators hold (including US Senate?) from 2004-2008 It might be interesting to compare this to the previous cycle 1998-2002.
Let's hope this Congressional Caucus gets some traction.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/science/earth/13profile.html?pagewanted=2&ref=science
Wikipedia
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