1.09.2009

Obama's Price is Right Negotiating Strategy?

So it turns out that the Senate Democrats are not entirely happy about the Obama administration's proposal to spend "only" $800 billion or so on the economic stimulus package, about $300 billion of which would be devoted to tax cuts. Not just any Senate Democrats are angry, moreover, but a series of VIPs who either hold either very prominent public positions (Harry Reid), command a great deal of respect on the Hill (Tom Harkin), are thought to be very close to Obama (Kent Conrad), or all of the above (John Kerry).

My question is: can Obama really be entirely surprised that this is happening?

Before you answer, consider who we haven't heard very much from the past couple of days. We haven't heard very much from Mitch McConnell. And we haven't heard very much from the Blue Dogs. Nobody seems (publicly) to be taking the position that the $800 billion is too much, at least provided that it comes with $300 billion of tax cuts.





Now consider what Obama told CNBC the other day:

Obama also confirmed that he plans to lay out a roughly $775 billion economic stimulus plan on Thursday but indicated that the amount could grow once it gets taken up by Congress.

"We've seen ranges from $800 (billion) to $1.3 trillion," he said. "And our attitude was that given the legislative process, if we start towards the low end of that, we'll see how it develops."

Obama isn't picking these numbers out on accident. This range -- $800 billion to $1.3 trillion -- is most likely the range of outcomes that his administration considers acceptable. He says that "given the legislative process", he's deliberately chosen a number on the lower end of that range.

What does this mean? It means he wants the Senate Democrats to do his dirty work for him. All of the sudden, the administration, which is about to spend at least $800 billion, gets to play the role of the fiscally prudent tightwads, negotiating against the Senate Democrats. This has at least two benefits. One, it requires less of the administration's political capital to sell the package. And two, it completely co-opts the conservative opposition. Unless you're Paul Krugman or Greg Mankiw, you probably don't really have any idea whether $300 billion or $800 billion or $1.2 trillion is the right amount to spend; the numbers are too large, the scope of the stimulus too unprecedented, to provide for any absolute frame of reference. So the frame of reference is relative rather than absolute. If you're Mitch McConnell or Mary Landireu or Bob Corker and you see that John Kerry thinks that $800 billion is too little -- well then, 'gal darn it, this Obama fella must be doing something right.

Imagine instead that Obama had started out at $1.3 trillion, assuming that the conservatives in the Senate would negotiate him down. Then we have some big, old-fashioned brouhaha about economic philosophy, with Obama and the Senate Democrats lining up against the Blue Dogs and the Republicans. This strikes me as a considerably more dangerous negotiation, because while the Senate Democrats can set the ceiling if Obama starts too low, there is nobody really there to set the floor if he starts too high -- the Republicans have no real imperative to compromise on any stimulus. Public sentiment, moreover, which now favors the stimulus, might easily have turned against it if there was some sticker shock on the initial price tag, and once public sentiment turns against something like this, it can be hard to put back into the bottle.

I call this a Price is Right negotiating strategy. When bidding on an item on The Price is Right, you want to come as close as possible to the item's price without going over. But if you do go over, your bid is invalidated. Thus, it is worse to bid $1 too much than $100 too little. Here, analogously, the risks of overbidding seem to be considerably greater to Obama than the risks of underbidding.

Some of you will object: but why even worry about this whole bipartisan song and dance? Don't Democrats have the votes to shove this thing through?

Actually, that is not completely obvious. The Democrats have plenty enough votes in the House, but in the Senate, they'll need either one or two Republican crossovers to break a filibuster, depending on how the situations in Illinois and Minnesota are resolved. And they might need a couple more than that if they lose a Landrieu or a Lincoln. Now, I have argued before that a Republican filibuster is exceptionally unlikely on the stimulus. But this is on the assumption that both Obama and the stimulus itself are reasonably popular. If Obama were perceived as overreaching, on the other hand, the Republicans might have found it much easier to unite themselves against the proposal.

Until Obama takes the Oath of Office and actually stars doing stuff, it is easy for any of us to filter his actions through our preferred narrative about the incoming administration. Is this all some clever jujitsu negotiating ploy from the Boy Genius Campaign? Or is it a sign that the Obama administration just doesn't get it, fetishizes centrism and bipartisanship, and will need constant babysitting from the noble netroots? Neither characterization is liable to be entirely accurate, of course.

But I'm more inclined to argue for the former on the case of the stimulus package. The median expectation a week ago seemed to be that we'd wind up with a stimulus of about $800 billion. Now the question seems to be whether we'll end up at $800 billion or somewhat above $800 billion.

That doesn't mean that those of you who think we need more than $800 billion ought to shut up about it (in fact, Obama's whole strategy falls apart if you do). But for the time being, it would seem, that number has nowhere to go but up.

77 comments

autonic said...

First

410E9th said...

I hope you are right, nate. I have less confidence it will work out this way.

Steve said...

"Bill, I'd like to underbid, please."

See if anyone gets that reference...

Robby said...

Be sure to spay and neuter your Republicans.

Andrew said...

Again, I'll ask, do we expect Democrats like Landrieu to actually help FILIBUSTER or just vote against it.

Paul and Nate said...

That seems to me to be Obama's strategy. You knew all along that Obama was going to be taking flack from the left over a great many things he can't predict (Warren, the possibility of putting a pro-torture person in charge of the CIA) but the fight over the size of the stimulus is a narrative he has a lot of control over. He gets to set expectations of the size and where it goes more so than the media or Congress, and, while pundits and bloggers debate about how much of the stimulus is tax cuts, Obama talks mostly about infrastructure, state aid, and green jobs more than anything else. I see the items he talks about most as being the real focus of his stimulus package, and even though tax cuts are part of this he is really starting with a much bigger slice of the stimulus pie as tax cuts than he intends to include in the final version.

Because of this, I see all the hand wringing about the portion going to tax cuts as over blown because one can expect the Democrats to push back while Republicans are too busy being shocked and outmaneuvered by the size of this supposed "concession" on their behalf. But, like you said Nate, Obama's maneuvering and eventual success does rely on push back by Democrats for a larger bill and a greater portion used to create jobs (a role they seem to actually be filling).

jeninthecity said...

I really sincerely hope you're right. This does make a great deal of sense to me.

Andre said...

I think this is a brilliant strategy....unlike that dude in the Price is Right showcase bid, how much do you have to suck to have the opponent bid $1, that's almost insulting lol

Jenny said...

I like "Match Game" with Gene Rayburn

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

Then Senate Majority Leader Reid said, "I need a (blank)

PorridgeGun said...

Until Obama takes the Oath of Office and actually stars doing stuff, it is easy for any of us to filter his actions through our preferred narrative about the incoming administration. Is this all some clever jujitsu negotiating ploy from the Boy Genius Campaign? Or is it a sign that the Obama administration just doesn't get it, fetishizes centrism and bipartisanship, and will need constant babysitting from the noble netroots? Neither characterization is liable to be entirely accurate, of course.



That's the key point. I hope Obama isn't naive on the nature of Republicans and bipartisanship in general. I sincerely hope he's smarter than the the likes of me and the blogosphere, and more importantly his political enemies who seek to destroy his presidency. But I doubt it. One of my biggest problems with Obama is I don't know where he's coming from or what he feels strongly about. With few minor acxeptions, he never seems to take stand on anything of importance - at least not since coming to Washington. Obama also has a tendency to show too much restraint, which is unusual for someone so competitive. I mean, he seemed almost amused with McCain when the old fart was insulting him during the debates.


If Obama is a true student of history and of U.S. Presidents, he should give it a rest with his tiresome attempts at being Lincolnesque, and instead model his presidency on Franklin Roosevelt's first term (21st Century New Deal), and what John F. Kennedy was planning to do for his second term (breaking up the CIA, cutting the military bugdet, etc.). Better yet, be a truely original American president.

bradams said...

This is an excellent analysis, Nate. As you say, none of will know for sure until we see what actually happens but the logic makes complete sense. Excellent post. You rock.

Sean said...

It seems to me, that after witnessing two years of Obama using advanced strategy, it's better to err on the side of him still acting strategically.

I think we're going to be in for an interesting 4 years, where the netroots will get up in arms over some action or another that Obama takes, that ultimately leads to a more progressive outcome than if he just took up starting positions supporters expect/want him to.

I don't envy pundits -- trying to figure out why he is doing something will be a lot like reading tea leaves, trying to get a glimpse of what he's really after -- which is the point, I suppose. In these hyper partisan times, you have to pretty much keep everyone guessing if you don't want things to grind into impassable gridlock.

Or at least, that's what I'm hopeful will occur, based on his previous use of strategy.

Fitzy said...

If you're right, Nate, then this has another advantage built into it, too. By letting the Senate Democrats talk Obama into a higher figure instead of the Republicans talking him down to a lower one, it gives the Senate Democrats a chance to feel important and powerful. After caving on issue after issue after issue, a strong victory against the executive branch (albeit a Democratic one) could embolden them to act as a more effective and unified caucus.

And if it all blows up (the public turns against it), Obama has the plausible deniability going for him too-- "I only wanted $800 billion, it's Congress that made it bigger."

DCM in FL said...

well there is political strategy which can look good in theory on paper...

and then there is that cold hard reality which requires tactical maneuvering in the face of changing circumstances - like the tanking economy worldwide

compare it to the BCS game last night - a mediocre sloppy affair at best

OK had good strategy to open the game, and 'should' have been ahead 21-7 at the half except for those goal line tactics [4 runs by Brown & terrible refs...]

FL was floundering [to be kind] - but in the 4th quarter they went to the most basic tactical gut plays with Harvin sprinting & Tebow just putting his head down & ramming his way forward

OK squandered strategic advantages & lost the BIG game they shoulda/coulda won because FL literally beat them tactically in the 4th

what will Obama do when his center-right strategic ploys run up against entrenched opposition tactics from both the left & right ???

time will tell whether Obama is OK or FL

but USC & Utah coulda/woulda whupped 'em both imho

KQuark said...

Wow that was exactly my thoughts. The problem is Dems like Kerry are two steps behind Obama and have no imagination.

Chuck said...

Nate,
I think this is paralysis by analysis when the simpliest point will do. The political cost to not being bold is high in economic terms but not in political terms. It will be hard to prove he wasn't bold enough after the fact. (Reading Krugman and others one realizes very few remember the trials and tribulations of FDR--they just remember 'The New Deal').

If he is too high and a bunch of the spending is perceived as wasteful he will lose on both fronts.

Really, I think the most important thing is something you said a few days ago, which is essentially the devil is in the details.

VegnaBlitz said...

While I think the lower price tag was a good idea...I worry about the composition.

The size of the middle class tax cut is much bigger than expected, and the business tax cut seems ineffective yet expensive. 2-3 mil hired x $3000 = 6-9 billion. Not much compared to the total size, but...We're still talking billions of dollars. It's giving Republicans unneeded ammo, and I wouldn't think it's earning Obama any goodwill from them. You know no matter how much Obama conceded up front, Republicans are going to protest loudly about [i]something[/i] in there, and get more concessions.

But I do like how most of this is headed, and it does look like it will pass. :)

Darren Lenard Hutchinson said...

Of course he fetishizes the center. The man worships Lincoln to the point of getting sworn in with the Lincoln Bible. So, he is telling where he will live. His closeness with Cass Sunstein solidifies the view with me - although people outside of legal academic might not get it. Anyway, if he's going to live in the Lincoln middle, then progressives need to play the role of abolitionists: If Obama Emulates Lincoln, Will Progressives Follow Abolitionists and Radical Republicans?

David said...

What is the deal with you treating "political capital" like it is a bank account?

It is not like "political capital" is a set unit of measurement and each bill he wants passed costs n units.

Stick to statistics.

David Rein said...

Not that I'm saying you copied me, but I made the same point earlier here: http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/1/9/93420/58187/249#c249


One thing we know about Obama is that he's smart (11+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Subterranean, greenbird, sacrelicious, Dallasdoc, oscarsmom, TomP, mamamedusa, Yumn, My mom is my hero, island in alabama, thethinveil

. . . I was incredibly distressed when I heard that nearly half the stimulus package would be going to tax cuts and my Republican neighbor was elated.

Now Dem's and Congress and pushing back and what is Obama doing? He's setting the stage to compromise in the directions of the Democrats.

Now, it could just be that the guy is so lucky even his blunders work out for him, but I doubt it. I think this is premeditated and its political genius.

In the eyes of the filter, this whole package started as an issue of how are the Liberal Dems going to get their stimulus ideas past a skeptical GOP. By announcing tax cuts that are too big, Obama has done two things;

1. symbolically placed himself in a political respect as the protector of "Center-right values".

2. Simultaneously reversed the political momentum from a situation where we started left and get dragged back to the center, loosing political capital in the meantime. To a situation where we start in the center and the momentum is to pull us leftward all at no political cost to the president or the Dem's in Congress.

Again - could just be dumb luck I guess, but the end result is still a pretty dramatic reversal of perceptions.

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

Generally, Nate, I agree with you. However, I don't necessarily think Obama's looking to lard on another $500 million. Rather, he's adopting a very smart negotiating strategy when dealing with complex situations:

1. Identify as many significant positions/stakeholders as you can.

2. Draft a plan that neutralizes the most vocal potential critics but is apt not to please all the folks on either side. Boehner and McConnell could have destroyed a too "liberal" package, but does anyone think Reid or Kerry have the stones to submarine Obama right out of the gate? That Conrad can go toe to toe with Pelosi?

3. Invite all discontented voices to try to improve the package, but make it clear that piecemeal "solutions" aren't going to cut it. If they have a solution, they have to prove it can work without crippling everything else.

4. Give them some time to stew. When the whiners finally realize how hard it is, re-present the original with some tweaks to appease people/show you were actually listening - maybe even change the name. Typically, they suddenly think the plan is great.

I've seen my wife do this in state government in two states on seemingly intractable issues. I like to think of it like drawing a with a spirograph - you go around in a lot of little circles from the perspective of the participants, but if you focus hard enough you actually can control the outcome to get a bigger design done.

Raj said...

Uh, how about this alternative hypothesis:

Obama is pushing for an $800 billion stimulus package because he wants an $800 billion stimulus package.

Admittedly you can't build an elaborate theory based on reading tea leaves and inferring secret motives around this hypothesis, so it's not as interesting, but it does have a certain elegance.

Lupercal said...

"but USC & Utah coulda/woulda whupped 'em both imho"

lay off the gators will ya? geez. look, whether you have a playoffs sytem or the faulty BCS, we still won, and still would have won the game, not just because we have the bigger talent, but because we want it more and we have better emotional leaders. Now you're talking about a sloppy affair at best. Well, i don't know what you expected. It' s not one of your weekly games when you only have 4 days to prepare. They had a freakin' whole month, to revise every single play in the book of the opposing team. If you had any doubts that the game would hinge on defense, then maybe you need something checked.

i digress though. this is not some sports ranting site. Good piece Nate. Somewhat logical. I actually had a sense that that's what he was doing, but i couldn't quite put it into words. I am somewhat distressed though that maybe he's not separating his strategic goals from his tactical goals.

I mean, i know he cares about energy independence as a major achievement because it's the next generation economy-driver. But if he thinks that he can get another separate 50 billion investment on the alternative energy sector AFTER the stimulus package, then maybe he's mistaken. Yes, he cares about tax cuts, but so does he about healthcare and energy. he'll get separate money for Afghanistan and Pakistan, but if he thinks he'll get any significant domestic investment over the next 4 years besides this stimulus, then...

lompe said...

I think you are right, Nate. People who know him better than I do say Obama has been doing this before.

Now, here are my predictions:

$800 Billion now.
$400 Billion extra within 6 months if necessary.

30% of this: Tax credits for the middle class, tax breaks for hiring companies and "greener" taxation.

Obama gets what he wants and "everybody" gets credit for pulling Obama in the right direction.

BruinKid said...

@PorridgeGun

I mean, he seemed almost amused with McCain when the old fart was insulting him during the debates.


Sadly, that's because he knew that if he were to get angry, too many people in this country would then see him as just the "angry black man", and he would suffer at the polls for it.

Think about how messed up this country was with the economic crisis, the war, the environment, etc. And yet McCain got almost 46% of the vote?? You think that many Americans are that stupid, or perhaps there were other factors at play that made them vote against their own economic interests?

yiannis said...

My fear is that Obama knows little about economics and he is relying too much on Clintonite orthodoxy to get us out of this mess.

Kerry is right to support more money for energy.

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

In figuring out the total, don't forget there's another $350 billion in TARP money that hasn't been authorized yet. Geithner, Summers and others are supposedly working around the clock on a revamp of the program to provide more control of exec pay, tracking, etc.

Raj - asking for exactly what you want up front is about the surest way not to get anything you want in any sort of negotiation (and this is a negotiation). Obama's never been known for that sort of naivete, contrary to the Obambi nickname some use - and he already has tweaked the deal today, hours after asking for input. As a proud Camp Obama graduate, I can tell you his whole strategic vision is about building coalitions at all levels through the ideas of respect, include, empower. The strategy I laid out is one way how you drive coalitions of the generally unwilling to consensus. I can't do it, personally - I get too frustrated, like most people. But the man isn't like most people.

Cugel said...

First of all, we don't have to guess or speculate about Obama's strategy, because he's come right out and told us on MSNBC exactly what it is.

"Harwood: If it's correct that, as your aides have said, the danger is doing too little rather than doing too much ...

Obama: Right.

Harwood: ... why stop at $775 billion? Why not go to the $1.2 trillion that some economists have recommended? Is that because you think that the political figure of a trillion dollars is too politically charged to get over? Is it because you think more spending would be pork rather than stimulus? Or do you think you've figured out exactly the right amount of stimulus that's needed?

Obama: Well, first of all I think it's important to note that every economist, conservative or liberal, at this point agrees that we have to have a substantial recovery plan that helps to jump-start the economy, that short-term it's going to be expensive, but it would be much more expensive to see the economy continue in the tailspin that it's been going in. We've seen ranges from $800 to $1.3 trillion and our attitude was that given the legislative process, if we start towards the low end of that, we'll see how it develops. We are concerned ...

Harwood: It's going to get bigger.

Obama: Well, we don't know yet."


This is STEP 1. Obama knows that the stimulus will be MUCH bigger than what he's asking, much bigger even than $1.1 trillion. In fact it's going to be over $2 trillion when all is said and done, because we've just lost 2.6 million jobs last year and we'll lose about as many in 2009 (at least).

With unemployment skyrocketing and the economy in free-fall nobody is going to see much future in fighting the inevitable 2nd and 3rd parts of the stimulus plan.

By April Congress will be in full panic mode as will consumers. You don't pick a fight with the Captain of the Titanic WHILE the ship is visibly sinking, it's "how many life-boats can you deploy. Sir."

I read Nate's interesting post from Monday about what's in the Republicans best interests. But it vastly understates the problems.

If this were some ordinary recession, Republicans might make political hay out of saying "See we told you so! Stimulus only made things worse! What we need is a return to sound fiscal discipline and the free market!"

That argument didn't work terribly well in 1936 and it's not going to work well in 2010 either.

Calvin and Hobbes said...

Damn, Nate. That was VERY interesting analysis. Borderline erudite.

Joe the Pope said...

This is a long one - feel free to skip:

If Obama is a true student of history and of U.S. Presidents, he should give it a rest with his tiresome attempts at being Lincolnesque, and instead model his presidency on Franklin Roosevelt's first term (21st Century New Deal), and what John F. Kennedy was planning to do for his second term (breaking up the CIA, cutting the military bugdet, etc.). Better yet, be a truely original American president.

Unlike you, I suspect that Obama is a true student of presidential history. Assuming he is, he would seek to emulate Lincoln's unparalleled raw political skills and ambition. In this regard, he's off to a good start with his ability to sell his personal narrative as competently as Abe's "Aw Shucks kid from the sticks who splits rails and tells truths" routine. Though, admittedly, 44's is much more based in actual truth that 16's, so it's naturally easier to sell. Lincoln also didn't have the benefit of a David Axelrod, who was, in part, just scaling up his work with Harold Washington.

Part of Lincoln's unparalleled genius as an American politician was his ability present an argument and win in an unconventional way, a way that only his unique talents as a lawyer, politician, and poet would allow.

For example, in November of 1863, Lincoln was facing a brutal re-election bid less than a year away. He was "polling" at well under 50% at the time - not, as the cliche goes, an ideal position for an incumbent. He was facing mass protests based on his draft policy, which, he presumably joked about, wouldn't have happened if these protesters knew that their generals would be too timid to actually force them into battle. One of these generals, in fact, was positioning himself to run to his right in 1864. And, given these protests and the general mood of death and misery, he was beginning to hemorrhage at his left flank from the arguments of Copperheads ("The man who votes for Lincoln now is a traitor and murderer... And if he is elected to misgovern for another four years, we trust some bold hand will pierce his heart with dagger point for the public good.") As any good moderate wimp like Lincoln would have done, he had many of these people thrown into prison without a trial.

So you've got an election in less than a year that you're likely to lose, and you've figured out the the basis for this is that the technocratic argument for the war (preserving the union) is no longer politically viable. What's a politician to do? Well, how about reach back into your lawyer-poet bag of tricks and reframe the entire war as a struggle for human freedom and a final examination of validity of democracy as a system of governance? And, since you're so timid, why not just make the case in fewer than 300 words? And, more importantly, do it in such a way that no one points out that your central argument is nonsense? (i.e., "democracy" would obviously not cease to exist anywhere for all of history if the North did not prevent secession. After all, our democracy was founded in secession.)

But he won his argument, and with that the election and the war itself.

He also won something much greater, however. I'd love to think that he somehow knew that unlettered and uneducated "students" of history would contrast him unfavorably with more the more overtly partisan gunslingers of presidents past and future. And that even these presidents, some of whom accomplished quite a lot themselves, would nevertheless be constrained as touchstones by their party identification/ideological predilection (Roosevelt is regarded as the third or fourth greatest president, but he's still viscerally opposed by the likes of Cato, etc., whereas Lincoln's strongest opposition comes mostly from the Klan). He could be the "moderate wimp," and they the "principled warrior."

I bring this up because it's so perfectly analogous to Nate's post. Lincoln's raw political skills and brutally cold calculations were only truly unparalleled because they were perceived not only by many contemporaries (this is easy) but history (this is hard) as secondary to his "compromising" and apparent ability to inspire the likes of Rodney King some 125 years later. In the current debate, as Nate has argued, the success of Obama's stimulus package is contingent on people like you not getting it and railing at him for being a "moderate wimp" and pushing for a package of $1 trillion or more. The fact is that Obama can't win big and minimize bloodshed on this without the arrogantly ignorant raging of useful idiots. McConnell would just take him to the cleaners (he still might given how much more skilled he is than Reid, but it would be guaranteed if Obama went big at the outset). I'm still up in the air on whether Paul Krugman is a useful idiot or knowing conspirator, but I'd suspect the former given how much he didn't get during the primaries, and that he's consistently shown his economic knowledge to be inversely proportional to his political acumen.

In any event, the broader point is that this entire Obama presidency will work most effectively - I mean this - if you remain ignorant about Lincoln, etc. and just keep pounding Obama hard from the left with FDR hagiographies. You're unintentionally giving Obama political cover by using the Lincoln metaphor as a symbol of acquiescence and compromise. (And here I thought that ol' Abe had done enough for black people...) But please disregard this post for the sake of progressive policy. I just had to defend Abe, in spite of the fact that, unlike your post, at least John Wilkes Booth didn't miss.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

HERE is an interesting take on the stimulus package.

Christian said...

wow there are some remarkably comedians in the comments on this blog tonight. They don't really do the ol' fivethirtyeight justice, but good stuff!

where to start?

PorridgeGun:

"I hope Obama isn't naive on the nature of Republicans and bipartisanship in general. I sincerely hope he's smarter than the the likes of me and the blogosphere, and more importantly his political enemies who seek to destroy his presidency. But I doubt it."

Me too Porridge, I sincerely doubt obama is very smart at all actually. i used to think so, but now I think he's slightly less smart than your average blogger. obviously.

Joe the Pope said...

One quick addition to my response to PorridgeGun, as this has to be addressed. You wrote the following:

Obama also has a tendency to show too much restraint, which is unusual for someone so competitive. I mean, he seemed almost amused with McCain when the old fart was insulting him during the debates.

Who did the public view as the overwhelming winner of each of these debates? Who ended up winning the election? I know I'm going out on a logical limb here, but might it be possible that Obama is so competitive that he knew that bemusement would be the most effective response in accomplishing his objective of winning the election? And, in this sense, acting indignant in response to McCain's insults, as good as it might have felt at the time, might have been a bit counterproductive in the end? I mean, it's not as though Alinksy had ever recommended ridicule as a valuable weapon in one's political arsenal (e.g., "Annie Oakley," "dirt off your shoulder," and "McCain staff meeting" being obvious examples). So I would argue that getting angry at an old white military guy in front of tens of millions might not be an ideal tactic when you're a black guy named Barack Hussein Obama who's a few years out of the state senate and running to be the leader of the free world in the era of global terrorism

But, as far as this statement is concerned:

I sincerely hope he's smarter than the the likes of me and the blogosphere

I think the smart money's on your "hope."

loopy said...

I totally agree and have been saying this to anyone who will listen.

The comments about how maybe Obama is just too naive and maybe he doesn't understand just make me chuckle.

Ramey Ko said...

Other very recent developments that I think reinforce Nate's theory are the continuing trickle of "worse than predicted" economic indicators and the near monopolization of the current media narrative by folks in the Stiglitz/Krugman camp, several of whom are prominent Obama advisors.

On the former, economic indicators may be a surprise to many private sector and outside observers, but they take time to compile, and it's highly likely that the transition team was given an inside track on what was coming (at least one hopes, since anything less would be irresponsible).

On the latter, it's telling that not only have the loudest voices in the media been those calling for more spending versus tax cuts and a larger package, but that those voices are known to be close to Obama. Yes, some of them are progressive champions with no direct ties, such as Krugman, but quite a few have been folks that are definitely meeting with Obama and his team regularly. A more speculative theory is that Obama has somehow let it be known that "raising concerns" is fine.

Conversely, while there have been stories about Republicans demanding more tax cuts, etc., there hasn't been any coherent ideological/policy message on the other side. It's not like Hubbard, Mankiw, Friedman, etc. are out there making principled objections to the stimulus plan. And I really wouldn't expect it - conservative, neo-classical and monetarist economists don't believe in the stimulating effects of tax cuts in the short term either. And since the stimulus bill doesn't have a large regulatory component, there's no interventionist boogey man to attack.

Between the economic news and the dominant narrative, what the American people are hearing consistently are dire warnings that things are much worse than we imagined and more spending is needed. Thus, the momentum is decidedly unidirectional - allowing Obama to "cave" to public opinion and economic realities by adding more/readjusting the stimulus.

On another note, I'd take issue with the previous comment's interpretation of Lincoln's political strategy. While Lincoln maneuvered politically in a way that drew criticism from both conservatives and abolitionists/radical Republicans alike, his achievement was ultimately accomplishing perhaps the greatest transformation of American constitutionalism since the founding era with virtually no one realizing what he had done until quite a while later. On slavery, he moved more slowly than many radical Republicans preferred, but many of the most ardent, including Frederick Douglass and William Lloyd Garrison, later acknowledged that Lincoln had accomplished virtually everything they had wanted and had done so in a way that swung public opinion (in the Union) overwhelmingly in favor of abolition. Douglass was particularly effusive in his praise of Lincoln ex post facto.

It's important to remember that at the outset of the Civil War, public opinion in the North was still largely against total abolition, believed that the Constitution protected slavery in at least the states where it existed at the founding, and only overwhelmingly agreed that slavery should not be extended into new territories nor artificially propped up. There was also enormous concern over retaining the border slave states of Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland in the Union, particularly in the early stages of the war when DC was vulnerable and the US had a very small army and virtually no navy. Copperheads advocating caving on virtually every Confederate demand to end the war were winning major elections in the first years, and Lincoln needed political support to preserve his non-negotiables -

By the end of the war, Lincoln had moved in piecemeal steps from a modest view of allowing slavery to die a natural death and preserving the Union and constitutional integrity as the paramount concern to popularizing the view that slavery and Southern constitutional philosophies had to be repudiated decisively for America to survive. By the time Lincoln proposed the 13th Amendment in the latter stages of the war, the Union public had gone from largely skeptical of such a step to overwhelming support. The Amendment passed very rapidly. In addition, Lincoln helped convince Maryland and I believe Missouri, loyal slave states that had initially threatened secession if abolition was made THE goal of the war, to amend their state constitutions to abolish slavery.

The Lincoln trick, which any progressive president should hope to pull off, was to achieve major changes through seemingly moderate action and make previously radical positions mainstream.

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This post has been removed by the author.
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Joe the Pope said...

So perfectly spot on, Ramey Ko.

I saw so much of Lincoln's political skill in Obama's stance on heath care during the primary.

As the bill crosses President Obama's desk: "Since the American public insisted on universal heath care..."

I also can't wait for Barack's "revelation" on gay marriage, though his argument will naturally be easier: "Well, I really got to thinking about how my parents would have only been allowed to marry in a few states when I was born..."

It's fun having a guy in the oval office who might be smarter than the blogosphere. Maybe.

MarieMeyer said...

Joe the Pope, please start your own blog, I want to read more by you!!

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

Joe/Ramey,

Have you read DK Goodwin's Team of Rivals? I know the term's been grossly abused of late and turned into some fantasy of a "Dream Team", but it really is quite an interesting tome about Lincoln's decision making process. It lays bare all the ways in which Lincoln built momentum and a perception of consensus for many of his ultimate actions (which he had planned on all along) essentially through giving himself operational freedom and playing the egos and arrogance of his rivals, in and out of the Cabinet, against themselves. I see a lot of that in Obama.

Lincoln really could be cold-blooded politically, although the amount of time he spent reading casualty returns at the War Office speaks to the key difference between him and someone like Rove or Cheney who are calculating but seem to lack any sense of the real impact of their actions.

What Joe calls the "moderate wimp" I'd call "everyone's second choice." In fact, Goodwin lays out in detail how Lincoln secured the nomination by being everyone's backup choice as well as having a small core constituency. Sort of how Obama won Iowa in no small part by being the alternative for people who didn't like Hillary's inevitability but were put off by Edwards, too.

BTW, in Springfield, at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Museum, they have a hall filled with the horrible press coverage Lincoln got and the scurrillous rumors about him are plyed over the PA. While much of the place is Disneyfied, I love that room. It really puts the hate spew about Obama in some perspective - no mainstream press is labeling Obama the Devil incarnate, for example.

Lucas said...

I think you place a bit too much emphasis on 60 votes as being the magic number. While voting against a stimulus might be good positioning for a Republican or Blue Dog senator, filibustering a time-sensitive stimulus bill has to be politically nuclear. While there is a good argument for demanding that Obama reach a higher threshold of consensus for such a massive outlay, the headline "REPUBLICANS DELAY STIMULUS BILL" has got to give Mitch McConnell nightmares.

Ralph said...

I think eight hundred dollars should be enough for anyone. OOPS! Did I say eight HUNDRED dollars? Of course I meant eight THOUSAND. Silly me. So let me say that again: eight thousand dollars should be enough for anyone. Oh, no! I did it again! I meant eight MILLION dollars! I have to be more careful! These numbers MEAN something!

I'm just not sure what.

jonathan said...

Interesting. I really hadn't thought about the critical importance of having a game theorist on staff if you're the president.

Ralph said...

Sorry, obviously in my previous comment I meant to write eight hundred TRILLION dollars! That should be enough, really, but in Congress they could add something more, you know, to help the "disadvantaged," or, better yet, to help the truly disadvantaged, the very rich, who are losing the most in this repression. I mean, in this recession.

snow1000 said...

Okay, there is basically no point to this post. All your saying is that Obama is doing the right thing. So why would you assume that he doesn't know what he is doing? Why don't we wait until he actually screws up to call him incompetent?

DCM in FL said...

the gambling capitol of the country is relocating from LV to DC

unfortunately what happens in DC does NOT stay in DC...

but it is clear that the power brokers are going mad with the treasury & treating it as chips or monopoly money

makes it much easier to double down on a bad bet [TARP with no real conditions] or to go 'all in' on a munogeous bluff without even holding pocket nines...

easy come, easy go - the pols still get their raises & benefits for fidlling while Rome burns while they complain about exec compensation

Wag the Dog & Pony Show

Ramey Ko said...

Berkeley Bear -

Indeed I just finished Team of Rivals recently. I also found Garry Wills's Lincoln at Gettysburg extremely valuable in understanding the significance of what Lincoln did so subtly. Next on the list is Lincoln at Cooper Union, which should be particularly relevant given that Lincoln's Cooper Union speech was his "Sister Souljah" moment, not in terms of his denouncing anyone, but as a reassurance of how "mainstream" he was.

On your Dream Team point, I actually think a lot of folks are misreading DKG on both sides. On one side, you have folks who think DKG is saying that a Team of Rivals is always desirable in itself, rather than a smart strategy given political realities AND contingent on the talent of the leader. On the other side, you have folks who interpret DKG as saying the Lincoln cabinet was a disaster, which it very much wasn't. Seward, Bates, and Stanton all worked out in the end. Chase and later Frank Blair proved to be problematic, but it was arguably necessary to keep them until it was no longer tenable in order to prevent fracturing at a crucial time for the country and Lincoln's Republican Party.

I read DKG as saying that the Team of Rivals worked not because it's inherently great, but because it was the best option available and because Lincoln could pull it off. Some of Obama's motivation is probably similar - beliefs about political necessity, keeping enemies/agitators close/happy, and confidence in leadership ability, but the comparison with Lincoln is limited.

I think some of Obama's motivations are unique to our situation - for example, using Gates to make withdrawal from Iraq a bipartisan effort. And one of his stated reasons - wanting smart people who will disagree with him - was not actually near the top of Lincoln's list. Lincoln downplayed the differences of his cabinet when there were actually startling gulfs; Obama seems to play up differences among folks who are nowhere near as far apart as Lincoln's team.

Finally, Obama has something Lincoln did not: a significant, powerful White House staff. In Lincoln's day, the Cabinet WAS the President's staff. Other than his two personal secretaries, Lincoln had to do everything himself or have a Cabinet member handle it. Many of the Cabinet members themselves didn't have many staff. The most important Cabinet members advised on numerous policy issues, not just those within their portfolios. On the one hand, that meant Lincoln was much more directly aware of and involved in what was going on in each Cabinet department, but on the other hand, he had to do a lot more to keep his Cabinet happy. I don't really know which way all that ultimately cuts, but it's an important distinction.

Joe the Pope said...

To clarify a few things that I might have been less than clear about:

1) I wasn't suggesting that Lincoln himself was a "moderate wimp," but simply caricaturing the perception of the guy as a passive, unambitious political moderate. He's not as accomplished as the blogosphere, but he was a bit more than a national mediator who could author some pretty speeches.

2) When I was referring to Lincoln's coldness, I was referring strictly to the pragmatism that informed the process by which he sought to meet his political objectives. His defining personal trait was arguably his empathy, which is saying quite a bit given the man's judgment. And, frankly, it would have been much easier on him he were he actually cold-blooded at a personal level: 500,000+ dead on your watch and a wife driven insane by your kid's death at the same time? Well, he didn't have golf to quit, I guess.

zosima said...

Right on Nate!

I've been thinking the same thing. If this really is an act of impressive political acumen, then we may be much luckier to have elected Obama at this time than we think.

I hope he can get away with getting it large enough. (ie at least 10% of GDP: 1.3 trillion or so)

That said, even if economic theory does predict that we need a particular amount of spending, no economic depression like this has EVER been nipped in the bud by some major government action. If it works, and the economy really does recover, it will be a historical event not only for pragmatic reasons. The recovery will be a huge milestone for the power of economic theory to predict effective policy.(The Keynesian school of economics in particular)

Moreover, If it works we'll have a solution to an economic crisis that doesn't involve going to war. It could mean the end to major swings in the business cycle, which have been a pox on civilization since Adam Smith first imagined the invisible hand in The Wealth of Nations. We would have a straightforward action we could take whenever the economy dips. Now I don't doubt that we'll overuse a tool like this and find that it has unintended consequences, but it will still entail a major sea change in the organization of human societies.

Mrs B said...

OMG - Ziegler has just appeared in an article in the printed version of the Guardian over here in the UK - and it's all about his mission to prove Obama only won because of distortions from the MSM. He has done an interview with Palin, in which apparently they show there was a conspiracy by the media and McC's campaign against her. No, really (no question mark).

To return to the topic - so far what Obama has done suggests that he is smarter than the average bear. No reason to suppose he has suddenly lost it on being elected. I would say he knows what he's doing. If anything, it's the rest of us who may not be smart enough to work it out.

Joe the Pope said...

The lede in the major story on the front page of today's Times:

The fresh evidence on Friday of the economy’s downward spiral focused even more attention on two questions: Is the stimulus package being pushed by President-elect Barack Obama big enough? And will the component parts being assembled by Congress provide the most bang for the buck?

Your move, Mr. McConnell.

David L said...

OT - I have a quick question: after election night someone posted a link in the Comments to a comparison between 538 and some other sites, including Politico. I'm doing a paper on Obama and the win; does anyone know the link? I cant find it. Thanks!

Tony C. said...

I am opposed to tax cuts in any form.

Businesses will lavish them on executives or just pay off their debts if they are fiscally responsible.

The wealthy will put them in savings, or buy into stocks that have weathered the recession well.

The middle class will just pay off a little of its credit card debt or other debt.

These uses do nothing to stimulate the economy because no product is bought and nobody's work is being used. No shelves get any emptier.

Screw the tax cuts, use that $300B on 10,000 new green electric power plants, geothermal, wind, solar thermal. That would cost $100B, but we need the support services like an electric grid and alternative ways to store power. There are alternatives besides electric batteries, including highly compressed air, which can run a car all day and has zero emissions. Thirty ton vacuum flywheels, rotating at Mach 1, can store massive amounts of energy with near zero losses. We have full scale proofs of these in operation.

Figuring out energy independence is the right way to save the economy and the planet, and if we have to throw a few billion in pork to get two or three senators to vote on it, if we have to locate a few big projects in their states, so be it.

$300B in tax cuts will do nothing and is much too high a price for appeasement, there are thousands of old infrastructure projects and thousands of new ones that would benefit us much more. Spend the money at universities on the research and development the country needs.

Mainer said...

Obama's approach is politically brilliant. He's positioned himself in a consistent style, as acknowledging the commonalities of blue and red, as for tax cuts for the middle class, and for major investments in energy, broadband, and education.

This stimulus bill delivers on ALL of those and will maintain his extremely strong approval ratings, giving him a consistent and strong level of political capital to get health care reform passed as well as other policy goals.

Delivering on tax cuts for the middle class is a necessary element, particularly since it was a big part of the 2008 campaign and because Clinton failed to deliver on his 1992 promises.

With the political smarts of Obama and his team, they are playing this so well that it's not necessarily obvious what they are doing, especially as it's so different from the blunt force approach of W. and Rove. But this has so much more potential to deliver on a range of policies and to keep Democrats in office for a long time, which is why you see a weakening of the Republican bench for 2010.

jerry25 said...

I predict it will be about $995 billion. Obama wants Republican support, but won't get it if it exceeds 1 trillion dollars. This was already discussed on CNBC.

If Obama wants to get it approved, he should get the Dems. to seat Burris immediately (what Reid is doing is absurd) so that Al Franken can then be seated "provisionally". (The Republicans are going to be obstructionists as they demonstrated with the Auto Loan last month.)

As I understand, Senate committee proportions are being held up until the remaining two contests are settled. By seating Burris and Franken, committees would be set at a 59-41 proportion, instead of the current 51-49, which could even result in Eric Holder not getting approval. Why are we not talking about this important story?

Skeptic said...

We need another Minnesota Senate Recount thread. This must be a record number of days without one for a while. I saw that one of the TV stations ran a poll and by 59-42 the voters want Coleman to concede and drop the contest.

Leslie said...

I read a lot of news, every day, and this is the most interesting analysis I've seen in weeks. Very nice piece of work. Between your blog and Krugman's, I'm in wonk heaven.

Osiris said...

Sean @ 5:38 pm yesterday hit the nail on the head! If people see the "netroots" pissed off, they are more likely to think that Obama is doing some RIGHT. Just like on Rick Warren ... most people don't know RW for gays/prop8; they know him for the 40 days book and they LIKE him. So it's a win-win to Obama.

Likewise, I think BO is going to let the Senate Dems do his dirty work; the package will get bolstered, but he will look like a moderate and acting with restraint and intellect.

Remember that Obama won the Dem nomination b/c of great STRATEGY. He is a tactician; I think his presidency will be marked by *getting things done*, in other words, tactical victories!

Brian Jenkins said...

Count me in with the skeptics, Nate. (Long-time lurker, first-time poster, and a fine job you've done with BP.)

Obama is making a major mistake if he trusts Senate Democrats to do anything more than show up and vote. These are, after all, the same people who got mercilessly manhandled by a President with a 27% approval rating for the last two years. But they were responsible for the "strategy" that gave him the nomination over She Who Must Not Be Named, and thus he'll stick by them regardless of performance.

The Price is Right strategy probably would have worked better if Obama hadn't released the earlier figure of $675 to 775 billion. Pushing the stimulus amount above the range he asked for will give people sticker shock, and will make it tougher for him to get the Blue Dog/ GOP votes he needs. I suspect he'll be held to his first bid.

My prediction is that Obama gets a stimulus package of $750 billion or so- 40% tax cuts, 40% aid to states, only 20% useful- and will feel thoroughly disgusted that he got so little for his political capital.

Freedem said...

Make the tax cuts DO something perhaps? What if you could get a 70% "loan" on any production machinery that produced new jobs to run and a three year break on any payback.

The way it pays its way is that the Government now gets a higher than normal payback for the remaining 15 years and "Owns" the machinery in any default.

This would leverage small business to start or grow, and provide jobs to those making the machinery (must be mostly US?), thus creating infrastructure in industry for a great deal of bang for the buck and if done smart actually get more revenue in than it would cost.

Sam Thornton said...

I agree with everyone.

New topic: Nate is crushing the competition in the Blog Awards. Vote early, vote often. Way to go, Nate.

Richard said...

To me it seems that Obama's just delivering exactly what he said he would:

1) He's giving us the middle-class tax cut he promised during the campaign with a modest not to small businesses.

2) He's giving us a substantial spending plan (though not too high, with the expectation that it will be negotiated up in Congress).

Are people just so shocked by a politician delivering on his campaign promises that they have to search for some hidden agenda?

Statler N Waldorf said...

Potential candidates for 2010

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

Joe,

Wasn't for a second suggesting you were literally calling Lincoln a "wimp" or that he was personally cold - just trying to use different terms given the inability of sarcasm to translate well in the blogosphere.

I will say, though, that the last lines of the Gettysburg Address weren't necessarily a throwaway. There was a real fear in some sectors in 1863 that representative democracy was doomed. Classicists knew that every attempt at a republic had reverted to imperialism and monarchy in times of extreme strife. It was widely believed a successful secession would likely encourage a further breakdown of the Union into loose confederations more like the South, esp. since many Northern states had threatened secession several times before the 1860s. That result could well have incited foreign powers to swallow up bits and pieces of the former US, especially since many of those same powers had brutally put down attempts at revolution in their home territories (such as the 1848wave of socialist rebellions) and their colonies (the Bolivar movement, recall, left few lasting successes) and really didn't like the idea of a true republic. Even England, while transforming into a republic in all but name in the home island, was conquering the Raj and still treating its colonies under the "virtual representation" that the US had tossed off. So Lincoln may have been extreme, but it was not a foregone conclusion that representative democracy would survive a collapse of the American experiment.


Ramey,

Whole heartedly agree that people who try to turn DKG's analysis into a soundbite (of any kind) are doing her and Lincoln a major disservice. Like I said, people who either assume Clinton/Obama is a "Dream Team" or a "Nightmare Team" don't get the complexities of team dynamics.

To turn to the world of sports, Lincoln to me is a little like Phil Jackson. Lots of people claim he only won because he had the best players and downplay his coaching skills because he's not a screaming, old school type. Still, those "great" players have been far less successful without him, and guys considered flops in other places have succeeded fabulously with him.

Lincoln likewise molded a true "team," and yet for years much of the intellegentsia was sure he was just Seward's mouthpiece, and others remained convinced to the end he was weak-willed, bumbling incompetent, and the country held together in spite of him. If he hadn't been such a brilliant politician, he wouldn't have survived those sorts of attacks for a year, much less 4+.

zosima said...

Tony C,
Do you know what happens when a thirty ton flywheel spinning at mach 1 fails? Do know what the probability is that we have a least one catastrophic mechanical failure if we're running these flywheels on a scale large enough to stabilize power sources that are only efficient during a particular time of day, or even worse, a particular season? Do you know what happens to the rest of the flywheels in the battery, when one goes boom?

The probability approaches 1, that we'll have an accident that releases energy at a magnitude approaching that of a large nuclear weapon.

This explains why we aren't using the technology, even though we have it.

jerry25 said...

@ Skeptic

Yes, we need another MN thread from Nate.

A new R2000 poll is out (at Daily Kos). MNs want to seat Al Franken "provisionally".

The MSM have not been discussing this possibility of immediately seating Franken. Unfortunately, Reid is making this more difficult with how he is giving Burris such a hard time.

We need to have both Burris and Franken seated next week.

The reason is not just because some critical votes are coming up - but because the Senate is so far putting off assigning committees based on the Nov. 08 results until the IL and MN results are concluded.

For example, next Thurs/Friday Eric Holder may not be approved because the committee will be 9/9 D/R after Biden resigns.
Based on a 59-41 Senate, it would be 11-8 D/R in the Judiciary committee - Thus making a Holder approval routine and a non-issue for the MSM.

Richard H. Serlin said...

Actually, that is not completely obvious. The Democrats have plenty enough votes in the House, but in the Senate, they'll need either one or two Republican crossovers to break a filibuster...

But can the stimulus bill be filibustered?!

This is the big question. In general budget bills cannot be filibustered, and often bills can be constructed so that they fit this. Note that the Republican's big tax cuts only needed 50 votes (for example the tax cut of 2006 passed with just 54). It's hard to find a clear answer on this. This part of the law has a lot of gray area, but from what I've seen the stimulus bill might not be filibusterable.

For more on what I found out on this see here.

Richard H. Serlin said...

Nate,

Please take a look at the Wikipedia entry on the Budget Act of 1974. It outlines bills that cannot be filibustered, and a stimulus bill looks like it qualifies.

This is very important. If it only needs 50 votes Obama can make it far more effective without fear of a Republican filibuster stopping it as Nate Silver assumes in this post, and as I'm sure many others assume.

In the Wikipedia entry you will see that the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 and the Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003 both were NOT filibusterable. Couldn't the stimulus package then be structured so that it's not filibusterable?

Darren Lenard Hutchinson said...

His threat to veto dissenting Democrats on the bailout money suggests that his moderate approach is NOT a game. He's the real deal moderate. I love it! How the Left Was Duped -- movie? novel? both?

Art said...

i find it amusing that in the photos of the "price is right" example, the contestant who bid $1 is standing behind the blue podium and the contestant who overbid is standing behind the red podium.

just a happy coincidence.

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Oct3 said...

I don't know how much passing this will help. Economies go through cycles. I read this interesting article on

http://www.recessioninfocenter.com

on previous recessions. We just need to adjust I guess.

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seo said...

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