1.25.2009

Obama: More Political Capital Than Reagan?

Although Barack Obama defied our prediction of starting his term with a higher initial approval rating than John F. Kennedy, his 68 percent approval score (versus 12 percent disapproval) is nevertheless noteworthy in comparison with his recent predecessors:



This chart tracks the initial Gallup approval and disapproval ratings following the inaugurations of newly-elected presidents since Eisenhower; Truman, Johnson, and Ford, who took over following the death or resignation of their predecessors, are excluded.

The green and red lines represent the time trends established prior to this year (that is, they don't include the Obama data point). While newly-elected presidents tend always to begin their terms with fairly high approval metrics, this has been decreasingly true in recent years, perhaps a reflection of increased partisanship. Obama's initial approval rating, indeed, is the highest of any president since Kennedy. His initial disapproval rating, meanwhile, is about half that of his two most recent predecessors, although higher than that of Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Carter, and G.H.W. Bush, all of whom began with disapproval in the single digits.

Whether Obama's approval ratings qualify as ordinary or extraordinary depend on the point of comparison. It is not particularly surprising that Obama's approval significantly exceeds that of Bill Clinton, who won a three-way election with only about 43 percent of the popular vote, or George W. Bush, who won in the most controversial fashion imaginable after the Bush v. Gore decision.

In comparison with Ronald Reagan, however, Obama's approval is quite a bit more impressive. Indeed, it is hard to mount a credible argument that Reagan began his term with more political capital than Obama:



Reagan won considerably more electoral votes in 1980 than Obama did in 2008. As measured in percentage terms, his margin of victory over Jimmy Carter was larger than that of Obama over John McCain. On the other hand, Obama won a lot more popular votes than Reagan did. He also won a higher percentage of the popular vote, and his margin of victory was larger than Reagan's in absolute (rather than percentage) terms.

The Republicans made greater gains in both the Senate and the House in 1980 than the Democrats did in 2008. On the other hand, the Republicans were starting from a much lower baseline, and if one considers the previous midterm to be part of the same political cycle, the Democrats gained more seats in each chamber over 2006/08 than the Republicans did over 1978/80. The bottom line, perhaps, is that Obama's party controls considerably more seats in both chambers of Congress than Reagan's did in 1980 -- indeed, Republicans were still a considerable minority in the House in 1980.

And now we have these Gallup approval ratings showing Obama regarded quite a bit more favorably than Reagan was at the start of his term. So in comparison to Reagan, Obama comes out looking pretty good.

A skeptic could rightly point out, on the other hand, that Obama's initial approval numbers are about the same as Jimmy Carter's were in 1976 -- and Carter certainly did not prove to be a political heavyweight. I suspect that it was indeed easier for a president to begin with something closer to universal approval in past eras than it is now. I suspect also that the tone of the campaign makes a fair amount of difference -- the 1976 campaign was, by modern political standards, a relatively genteel one on both sides. The Obama campaign also played relatively nice in 2008, although they certainly did not always do so.

The interesting and probably unanswerable question is to what extent Obama owes his high approval ratings to his inclusive/"post-partisan" rhetoric, and to what extent his favorability might be eroded by a cantankerous debate over something like the stimulus. The administration's decision may be to what extent Obama wants to use up his political capital now as opposed to storing it for the next two, four or eight years. But Obama needn't be too thrifty, as he has a lot of political capital to spare.

103 comments

Vote said...

Inauguration Crowd Count: If there was at least 2,365,000 sq ft of spectators, there must have been...

Juris said...

My own intuitive explanation for Obama's high initial approval score is simply that it reflects the very high approval that he won during the transition.

In this case, his seeming to reach across the partisan divide and the widespread expressed approval of his choices from the business community (and initial virtual silence from the GOP leadership) gave him a head start.

His seeming to take leadership and his frequent news briefings and announcements-- without having the reins of power -- also helped. Thus, he seemed on the surface at least, to be ready to take charge, disarming some of those who might have regarded him an an innocent and inexperienced leader.

Oliver said...

Reagan's percentage of the popular vote was suppressed by John Anderson getting 6.6%. But I am genuinely surprised that Reagan's approval rating was so low; it's basically the same as his popular vote percentage, implying that everyone who didn't vote for him, didn't like him, at least at first, obviously not true for people like Kennedy and Obama.

What's special about GW Bush? Answer: he's the only president violating the rule that Democrats are more popular than your best-fit line, and Republicans are less popular. Interesting, no?

Rose said...

The problem Obama is going to have is he doesn't have the support of people like me - the basic law and order crowd, who believe in supporting your President despite disagreements.

The opposite of the Code Pinkers. The opposite of his base.

Thus, as he begins to disappoint his followers, he will be left with no island to stand on.

'Cause he's have to do something REALLY radical to win my support, like a complete turnaround.

Juris said...

@Nate: can you combine your analysis of the "final approval" of the outgoing president with your analysis of the "first approval" of the incoming president?

Incoming Approval as function of:

(1) Final approval of outgoing,
(2) Electoral margin (EV or popular vote) of incoming,
(3) Dummy: party change or not?

Obama may have benefited from the fact that Bush was going out on such a low note -- and thus Obama shone in comparison with the "loser" heading out the door.

Diane said...

Oliver, I agree with your point about John Anderson--I voted for him because I didn't want another four years of Carter, but didn't like Reagan. So that should figure into the margin of victory somehow.

I am concerned that the stimulus/economy debate is going to bring down Obama's favorables, because if the Republicans stand against him it damages the bipartisan image.

I don't understand Rose's point completely--why would Obama not have the support of the law and order crowd that believes in supporting the president no matter what? By definition they would be supporting Obama too, right?

fred said...

Diane-

Much of the law and order crowd is not sane. Go see the Gateway Pundit who before the election touted every attack on Pakistan as part of the fight on terror, now he talks about how civilians are dying. Sanity seems to be lacking in St. Louis...

Statler N Waldorf said...

Well, I think 2006 represented a major shift in American perceptions of the Presidency. Voters were willing to go along with the War in Iraq up to a certain point, and somewhere between 05 and 06 Bush crossed that line. He went from fairly high approval in 2004 to a steady decline that only got worse all the way to the end.

Exacerbating the problem is the deaf ear he turned to public mind. While polls showed the majority of Americans disapproved of Iraq and Guantanamo, he adamantly refused to pay any attention at all. His inflexibility in Iraq became punctuated by his about face on North Korea-which seemed like a de facto admission of incompetence.

The economy seemed like the final nail in the coffin until his response-handing 700 billion dollars with zero strings or oversight to the banks-lowered the floor and allowed him to sink even deeper. In the end he became a symbol of incompetence and unre4sponsive government, someone who claimed that he alone knew all the answers (I'm the Decider Guy) and then proved that he didn't.

Obama's popularity should be seen in context-he is seen by the American Public in contrast to his immediate predecessor. Where Bush refused to budge on Iraq or Guantanamo out of fear that this would be seen as an admission of incompetence, Obama wasted no time in closing Gitmo and ordering Gates to get us out of Iraq ASAP. Even while he deferred to Bush (There's only one President at a Time) he still insisted that Congress should have a stimulus package ready for him to sign when he assumed office.

The impression thus created is thus: The last guy ignored you; I hear you, and will do exactly what you are asking me to do, no excuses.

Now, imagine yourself as an employer that just fired an incompetent, unresponsive employee that argued with you whenever you asked him to do something. His replacement is quiet, hard-working, respectful and when you try to praise him for his work, always seems to turn it into a "I didn't do this, WE did this, together." He never says, "No, you Can't do that"-his favorite phrase is "Yes we can, and yes we will"

If you don't fall madly in love with such an employee, then something's wrong with you. It's like the sun coming out from the clouds.

Pragmatus said...

Obama's approval ratings merely reflect the hopes that people have for him to tackle the messes the previous administration left behind. This was a watershed election, on the pattern of 1932 and 1960, when people anticipated change and were happy to give the new president the benefit of the doubt.

What can ruin this of course in the constant sniping of the press and pundits. Fortunately Obama does not seem the kind to let himself be drawn onto the flypaper.

DCM in FL said...

NATE

glad you made the comparison to Carter's #'s - which track Obama's most very closely.

imho Carter won in 1976 in no small part due to public desire to emphatically close the whole Nixon Era [which included Ford] which boosted Carter's vote totals as it would have wfor almost any generic DEM in '76

same scenarion in 2008 - yes Obama won BUT let us not forget that the circumstances of public distaste for the Bush/Cheney reign of terror was so strong that almost any generic DEM would have prevailed [just like in the Carter win]

Obama & DEM margins today owe a substantial debt to Bush more so than a pendulum swing toward a permanent shift in the electorate

the DEMs & Obama hopefully will learn from 76-80 that lesson that it is not an enduring personal or idealogical mandate given the fickle nature of the INDs who can swing back for a charismatic snake oil salesman's pitch [like Reagan] in 2012

they are ready to hear that 'better days are ahead' so Obama has a tough row to hoe since he will not have Bush to campaign against

I hope history will not repeat itself again, but the parallels with Carter are many besides the almost identical approval/disapproval ratings...

eve said...

I'm glad you posted the Weblog Awards link. I was happy to vote for 538 and a couple of other blogs I think are great. AND I also found a couple of new-to-me sites that I will now use too much time reading.

DCM in FL said...

NATE

please do a clarification for those on the site who extrapolate that the 'approval' #'s are a gauge of popularity

that is comparing apples & oranges - not the same

the question posed in the survey was 'do you approve or disapprove [or no no opinion]'

there was no sliding scale or measurement of strength of approval

again many are approving the mere fact that Obama [& the DEMs] are 'not Bush', and the inverse of Obama approval #'s is the approval #'s for Bush - coincidence ? nope

but it does give Obama a short-term advantage to work with this political 'capital'

wv - CYCLE [approval ratings tend to go in cycles - ask 43 & 39]

Michael said...

Nate, I think percentages are much more important than raw numbers, because the population is simply greater today than it was in 1980. Otherwise, I find your article interesting, as usual.

For those who may want to include Anderson's numbers in Reagan's, do you also want to include Perot's numbers in Clinton's? I don't think we can or should do either.

stevieboy said...

I can only pray and hope that Obama doesn't do anything to gain the support of freepers like Rose.

DCM in FL said...

Forbes has a list of who they believe are the 25 most influential LIBERALS in the media

@ http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/22/influential-media-obama-oped-cx_tv_ee_hra_0122liberal.html

besides Kos & Arianna & some of the usual suspects, they list Andrew Sullivan & Christopher Hitchens... well maybe to Forbes

Michael said...

Off-topic on this thread but topical for the site:

Senator Russ Feingold will introduce a Constitutional amendment to end gubernatorial appointments of vacant Senate seats.

Wonderful. And may I say, Senate seats are too "fucking big" to be left to anything but the will of the voters.

Michael said...

More Senatorial news(?):

Porn star to primary Vitter?

Shades of Cicciolina.

Rose said...

why would Obama not have the support of the law and order crowd that believes in supporting the President no matter what?

I did not say "no matter what," Diane. And that's the thing.

I said, that in general we believe in supporting your President despite disagreements.

There are lines we will not cross. Obama's history shows he crosses those lines, and he shows no signs of CHANGing. I will not support him when he does.

polls_apart said...

Considering the effects of third-party candidates in 1980 and 1992: as a gross estimate, I would tend to lump Anderson's vote wit Carter's in 1980, and Perot's vote with Bush's in 1992.
WV: dabining: cognate to Yiddish davening?

Ottoe said...

Yes unfortunately I think this post is flawed because it doesn't attend to John Anderson's place in things.

Actually if you account for Anderson then Obama looks more powerfully poised than Reagan, imho. Lots of Anderson voters (most I would say) would have voted for Teddy Kennedy had Kennedy been the Democratic nominee.

GHWB's election proably was the high-water mark for the defection of such moderates to the GOP (1984 being a weird cult of personality aberration election); the fraction of voters that breaks loose with Perot in 1992 is differently composed.

Anyway, bottom line stands that the Anderson campaign meant that Reagan's election, much more than Obama's, could be blamed on a fractured opposition.

The fact of a strongly Democratic House still in place then (and throughout Reagan's presidency) underlined that then-prevalent notion that Reagan was an accident ... and also again highlights Obama's relative advantage.

Jeff said...

Nate,

It is actually very easy to make a credible argument to the contrary. As Michael pointed out, your raw population figures are meaningless. The difference in popular vote in terms of percentage is moderate, but the fact that Reagan won so many more states is significant. Further, it seems to me that the increase in house/senate seats is at least as if not more important than the total number of seats held by the party of the incoming president. So with the exception of the approval numbers (and this is obviously a big exception), Reagan looks stronger. So keep giving us the great data and analysis, but tone the rhetoric down a bit for credibility's sake.

Evan Nelson said...

@Rose-

How does your brain survive such contradiction? You say you don't support Obama but call yourself a member of "the basic law and order crowd, who believe in supporting your President despite disagreements."

Which is it? You do or don't support the President?

Are you forgainst him?

Lucas said...

Good stuff, Nate. :)

My only complaint would be the inclusion of absolute vote numbers in terms of number of votes accumulated and absolute margin of victory. I really don't think those numbers are significant when we have a much better gauge in terms of popular vote percentage and percent margin of victory.

The reason I say this is because, since our population is always growing, of course a newer president will have received more votes in absolute terms. I had Republicans in 2004 tell me, repeatedly, that "Bush received more votes than any other president in history!" as if to say that that meant that he had the biggest mandate of any president in history. This is more just saying "There are more voters in 2004 than any other election in history."

Lupercal said...

@Rose: i hope you realize the utter stupidity of your reasoning.
@Nate: Um. You do realize that the population isn't static and that equating raw numbers to percentages is careless at its best, and disingenuous at its worst. Otherwise, good article.

Greg said...

@Rose

Out of curiousity Rose, what do you see as a reason for you to already be dead-set against him. What lines has he crossed?

PorridgeGun said...

Not only does President Obama have huge politcal capital at home, he also has huge political capital across the globe. More than any president in American history, and also legitimately, Obama is seen as leader of the free world. Every politcal debate and talk show this past week in Britain has touched on the fact that it'll be extremely difficult for any foreign leader to say NO to him. Fortunately for America's allies, Obama is tied up with domestic issues.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Michael-

1) The name of the porn star candidate to be is^

2) I agree, a gubernatorial appointment is hardly 'democratic', and an election adds an air of legitimacy you just cannot get any other way.

Rose-

yeah, party lines. You are not truly the law and order crowd that will support the President. You're just a partisan hack that will support the President if and only if you voted for him/her.

It just sounds more legit to describe yourself as "law and order type'. Law and order are good things, right, that's what everybody likes. It's like saying you're pro-life and pro-death penalty. Such a person is not byt he strictest definition pro-life, since that would imply proscribing any killing of anybody.

But it just makes you sound so much more superior to everybody else, doesn't it?

As long as you control the adjectives, you control the conversation. If I told you that you were not for 'law and order' but favored 'partisan hackery', you'd lose the moral high ground-which you don't really have, but you want to convince people that you do.

That's why you have to do what you can to obfuscate the obvious contradictions in your platform, the same way pro-lifers have to. You have to make the concept of 'law and order crowd' mean what you want it to mean in the listener's mind, rather than what it is. The 'pro-life' meme has become successful because most people no longer consider that point of view to be inherently contradictory anymore. The deception involved, that bait-and-switch chicanery has been successful for about 28 years now.

For now, you are a two-bit charlatan trying to play three-card monty with adjectives. In time, you could become a professional deceiver, like the pro-life crowd. Possibly, your deception will reach such a high level of success that you can even convince yourself that your bullshit is real.


Good luck with that.

fred said...

Evan-

Rose is insane, he has no understanding of contradiction, and he truly believes he makes his own decisions, when in fact the NRA and his drinking buddies truly decide.

Rose drinks Pabst, not Le Creme.

51st Ward Precinct Captain said...

Yeah, I'm disinclined to hand all or even most of (the very moderate) John B. Anderson's vote in 1980 to Reagan; indeed, the MSM --the only "M" we had at the time, pretty much-- wouldn't stop banging on before the vote about how "a vote for Anderson hurts Carter more than Reagan" because Anderson voters, if you put a gun to their heads, would've chosen Carter over Reagan in a no-alternatives two-way by a spread of something on the order of 5 to 3 (a percentage spread of 25 points, which does add up as we get into the hundreds of thousands).

Or so they said at the time. In any case, split it down the middle, and Reagan wins with 54.0 percent of the vote to Carter's 44.3.

S N W: Well, I think 2006 represented a major shift in American perceptions of the Presidency. Voters were willing to go along with the War in Iraq up to a certain point, and somewhere between 05 and 06 Bush crossed that line. He went from fairly high approval in 2004 to a steady decline that only got worse all the way to the end.

We'll have until the end of time, or at least the end of our own functional lives, to relitigate this one --but for now I'll say that the first hint that I got that Bush was in real trouble came during the summer of '05, and in places where conservative Republicans hadn't had to worry about where their votes were going to come from for a good while.

I went to the corner grocery late one afternoon, and my arrival coincided with the open of ABC World News Tonight on the TV as I walked in. Charlie Gibson led with Iraq --how long are we gonna be there, how bad is it gonna get, and what's it all for anyway?

They painted a pretty stark picture, with video of a blood-Red right-wing Congressmen from Gov. Mooseburger's "Real America" (think rural Carolinas and Virginia) standing on the House floor and making an anguished declamation to a near-empty chamber that he's "been going to two constituent funerals a month and cannot tell the spouses and parents of our fallen heroes how long we're going to be over there and what exactly were asking them to die for anymore."

Sounded an awful lot to me like a man suddenly very worried about raising money for a primary fight the following spring that he'd never expected --and maybe a stiff Blue Dog challenge in November.

Act Two was of course Katrina. They may have been poor, Black and out of sight to most of us, but it was my belief at the time that America looked at their TV screens and saw themselves staring back. Helpless and in urgent need of immediate intervention is what it is wherever it is, whether we're talking about New Orleans, Malibu, the Hamptons or Kenilworth.

Funny thing is, my initial thought at the time was that Bush, gone a bit wobbly by late August of 2005, was presented in Katrina with what could and should have been the equivalent of Bill Clinton's Oklahoma City moment. He proceeded to prove me wrong with every move that he proceeded to make --and not make-- over the next week.

None of this is intended as a counterargument to what I think a valid asserion, but rather a supplement to it.

STepper said...

Rose - WCGAT

Who
Cares
Go
Away
Troll

PorridgeGun said...

BTW, any comparison with President Obama and President Carter is utterly false. Likewise President Clinton. If anything, Obama's victory in November and his first 100 days mirrors Tony Blair in 1997. Both swept into power with huge majorities, a clear mandate, and a conservative party that had smashed themselves through corruption and incompetence. And like Blair, I fear Obama may blow his political capital on centrism and trying to please everyone. If he continues to value the opinion of the people responsible for the current mess, in the end he'll end up pleasing no one.

David said...

I don't get you Nate.

You have been writing since the election about how Obama should or shouldn't "spend his political capital", as if that is possible, on popular ideas such as health care, Iraq, etc.

No you are equating "political capital" with popularity.

So which is it? Can it be spent on these measures, or does he get more mythical "political capital" when he fights for popular bills?

Personally, I think you should drop this idea, it makes you look bad.

I agree with others who say that his numbers right now are simply the inverse of Bush's numbers and have very little real meaning.

David said...

Another oddity is that if "political capital" is measure by popularity, how is it that Bush got pretty much everything we wanted his last two years?

loner said...

Third-party vote has come up because of the Reagan-Obama comparison. In my experience, the only real way around this when doing such comparisons is to use two-party vote percentages. The popular-vote winner and two-party percentage (ordered by percentage) for non-incumbents elected President since 1952:

Eisenhower (1952) 55.5%
Reagan (1980) 55.3%
Bush (1988) 53.9%
Obama (2008) 53.7%
Clinton (1992) 53.5%
Carter (1976) 51.1%
Nixon (1968) 50.4%
Gore (2000) 50.3%
Kennedy (1960) 50.1%

Michael said...

Ottoe:

I remember the Reagan years vividly, and I don't recall anyone making the preposterous claim that his two landslide victories were "an accident." People don't have to be ideologically consistent in their choices for Congress and the President. Many people forget that during the Reagan Administration, Tip O'Neill was very popular, too.

SantaTurdo said...

'Rose' makes that dull old phrase 'law and order' sound seriously s.e.x.y.! Yes, sexier even than 'mule riding', verily.

Oh Rose you are thorny
And that makes me horny...!

Statler N Waldorf said...

Ward 51 Captain

Yeah, Katrina was definately a mess. Unfortunately, it did not affect just the GOP. Governor Blanco was seen as just as incompetent as Bush. After so many of us lost everything in the storms, alot of New Orleanians left and never came back, since there was nothing here to come back to. We now have about 1/3 of the population we did before Katrina.

the unfortunate side effect of that is, New Orleans used to be the reason why Louisiana was a Democratic state. We had the largest population base, and could easily overpower those GOPers in Shreveport and Baton Rouge, so our statewide and federal elections were always Democratic wins. Now, we haven't got that much influence anymore-and the result is Governor Jindal and Senator Vitter, and Obama didn't carry Louisiana (although he did carry New Orleans handily).

For some reason, this made McCain-Palin a winning ticket in a state they never could have carried had it not been for Katrina. Ironic that the incompetence of a Republican President would result in a shift toward the Republican party in a previously Democratic stronghold.

I think that's one reason why Jindal isn't so enthusiastic about rebuilding New Orleans or getting Category 5 strength levees. It's probably why he hyped the shit out of Hurricane Gustav. This creates the impression that he's proactive where Blanco was unprepared, scares people into moving away, and makes it unlikely that they'll move back. Without the tax base, my city has no revenues to clean up the streets or repair anything. The Ninth Ward still looks like a bomb hit it yesterday, and it's been three years. City Park still has fallen trees lying on their sides and overgrown grass, and there's broken streets, sidewalks and buildings everywhere.

You know what irony is? Indonesia is a third-world country, economically weak where the US is powerful. When that Tsunami hit them back in 2004, Aceh was flattened. Now, it looks better than it did before, and they did that in a little over a year.

But my city is a major urban center in the wealthiest country on earth. But a third world country can outdo my government in repairing a city damaged by storms and flooding.

I walk around sometimes, and I wonder if this really is America, or maybe we're just some backwater that happens to be surrounded by America. Neither the state level government nor the federal level GOP has any incentive to rebuild us. They benefit more from letting us rot and die.

PorridgeGun said...

As usual, Amato has the right idea:

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/obama-please-stop-appeasing-republicans





As sure as shit:

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/john-mccain-says-he-will-vote-against-s

Izanagi said...

I agree with Jeff's post, particularly where he said "the fact that Reagan won so many more states is significant."

Congressional Dems would have had at least a 53/47 seat majority sans an Obama victory (Warner, Tom Udall, Shaheen and/or Hagan would have won regardless). Same goes with the House. While Reagan's EV count was nearly a clean sweep, he won many of them narrowly (w/in 1-4%) but I doubt he'd have lost many because of Anderson (i.e. most Anderson voters would not have voted for Carter in a 2 man race); in 2008, few states were w/in 1-4 pts (IN, MO, NC, FL and OH). What this means for most Republicans in states Obama lost by high single digits or double digits have little to fear from opposing Obama. Indeed, as has been the case since 1968, but with the exception of 1996, the Republican presidential nominee, win or lose, has won more House seats of the Democrat than vice versa. Reflextive opposition by most of House GOP may not help the GOP as a national party get back to where it needs to be win, but it does not put their careers at risk. They simply have little upside in supporting or fearing Obama in their districts and can just sit back until his numbers stabilize or he makes a wrong move and then pounce on him and shamelessly milk it for as much political gain as they can. With that in mind, Obama's political capital is probably better spent or more valuable keeping Pelosi and Reid in line with few symbolic crossover support from moderate GOP (mostly in the Senate).

loner said...

That last before the list should read: in elections where non-incumbents were elected President since 1952.

The 2000 result is always a minefield.

I left the Republican Party with John Anderson in 1980 and I would have reluctantly voted for Carter had Anderson not run as an Independent.

Icy said...

I bet if you were to ask Rose if she supported Clinton and Carter, her answer would most certainly be no.

So what kind of Presidents does Rose support "despite disagreements"? Republican presidents. Nuff said.

thatmarvelousape said...

Rose,

Your mistake is the same mistake as the GOP in general. It's not the case that there's "Code Pinkers" and "the Law & Order Crowd" and nothing in between. 68% of the country are not Obama's "followers." Most Americans are fundamentally pragmatic and that is the ground that Obama is standing on. Whether he will have any ground left in a few years will depend on the success of his policies.

thatmarvelousape said...

Also, I would just like to point out that this statement is logically incoherent:

"The problem Obama is going to have is he doesn't have the support of people like me - the basic law and order crowd, who believe in supporting your President despite disagreements."

If you support your President despite disagreements, then Obama has your support. It sounds like you need some time to reflect on your beliefs. You have not reached what John Rawls would call "rational equilibrium."

thatmarvelousape said...

DCM's comments are almost as incoherent as Rose's.

One week, he is furious that Obama is not embracing ideological extremes when it comes to Rick Warren.

The next week, he decides to express his continuing resentment by arguing that people were "really just voting against Bush" and that Obama must tread lightly because he doesn't have "an ideological mandate."

So which is it?

If people are really still closet Republicans (and log cabin Republicans, apparently), how can you possibly expect Obama to take an ideological hardline against conservatives?

Ottoe said...

Michael, I agree that Reagan was no accident, and that the claim was preposterous at the time, but here is my memory of how the claim was made (or my explanation of what I meant).

For most of 1980, Reagan was just not taken seriously by many people on the left. When he was elected, those who hadn't taken him seriously shifted only so far as to entertain a disbelieving sense that Carter's perceived failure had opened the door for a bizarre demagogue. When he was reelected in a landslide, they upped their estimate of the mystical powers of Reagan's "snake oil" (h/t Steve Earle), but remained reluctant to engage with his issues and ideology. They considered him an "accident" in the sense that they saw his political appeal as inauthentic and only successful in the public arena because or circumstances beyond anyone's control (who could have predicted the hostage crisis, yadda yadda yadda).

Needless to say this abdication of responsibility for Carter's and Mondale's defeats and more generally for the Democratic party's inability to project capacity for executive authority was itself a main cause of what it perceived as an accident. But still, I do think that there is a germ of truth in the "accident" narrative in that Reagan was elected out of anger at and disgust with Carter, not because of the attractiveness of his program or even his persona. If GHWB had wrested the nomination in 1980 he would have put into place a significantly more liberal presidency (for reasons of pure perceived political expediency).

Reagan's near death in an asassination attempt early in his first term was key for making him a sympathetic figure in the public eye. (In a way, that was a sort of accident.)

After 1984, Reagan was enshrined as an MSM icon. His reelection, and to a lesser extent Bush's election, retrospectively ratified the realignment of 1980.

As I write this clarification, I feel like something about the issue of Obama's mandate is clarifying. Thinking about Reagan in this way reminds me about the significance of how repeated electoral victories cause voters to buy into what you're selling, rationalizing their continuous support over a period of time. By that logic, 2006 is very significant for framing what Obama should be able to do now. And if he is bold as well as successful enough to win reelection in a walk, he'll secure a generation for his party. And if the Republicans insist on thinking that it's all because of some accidents, you know, bad luck with a hurricane--and oh a war or two, and the entire national financial regulatory framework--they'll be out of power for a lot longer than the 12 years it took the Democrats to get real.

Obvious points, but worth restating in this context.

JMNorris said...

@Greg

Out of curiousity Rose, what do you see as a reason for you to already be dead-set against him. What lines has he crossed?

This is well worth asking. The rest should cool it with the criticism of Rose. S/he was polite and non-abusive. There was no call for an abusive response just because most of here (including me) are Obama fans. I suspect some here might have gotten hyper-sensitive due to some strange wingnut trolls that have been so irritating of late. I saw none of this in Rose's post.

I not sure who the law-and-order crowd are. In days gone by, "law-and-order" in politics was code for the "racist" (and proud of it). But I haven't seen that usage in quite awhile and have no reason to think that is what Rose is associating with.

DCM in FL said...

commenters like APE just prove they know not what they claim

'APPROVAL' doe NOT = 'SUPPORT'

in terms of 'would you vote for this person...

approval only means you do not DISAPPROVE of that person at the moment, and there is no comparison with another 'candidate' for an either/or as in an election

for instance - who wants to bet that IF a national pollster did a survey right now on how the public perceives John McCain that the results would be overwhelmingly positive [in an either 'approve' or 'disapprove' choice] ?

well since it is not a choice of either Obama OR McCain - at least 60% or more will say they currently 'approve' of Mccain

that is a no-brainer since John has handled himself rather admirably since his defeat, and Obama has feted him, and he has gone back to his root 'mavericky' ways already

so McCain is no longer perceived as a threat, so even I would choose 'approve' - but that does not mean I agree with him politically or would rather vote for the man

People - you are making a false argument - approval has no direct corelation with popularity or electoral support

it is an ephemeral feeling of good will - not much more at the margins

that explains why Reagan's #'s look so low in 1981. He won big, but polarized the electorate & Carter made it clear he was not happy [unlike McCain] & so his #'s reflect only the base that actually voted for him

McCain said since the election night - let's all get behind Obama & he has done so publicly

once more and this is basic statistical analysis as well as common sense - APPROVAL is not a gauge of POPULARITY or of voter's electoral support

DCM in FL said...

BTW - IF the choice was only 'do you approve or disapprove' and I was polled

Obama - YES [since it is yes or no]
Biden - YES

McCain - YES

Palin - NO !!!

although I would rather have a sliding scale of approval/disapproval to choose from + it does not mean that I would vote for that person if the election was tomorrow & I had other options

FWIW - how can those on THIS site seem to forget already that the GENERIC DEM candidate was always polling as trouncing any GENERIC GOPer during the entire 2008 cycle by even wider margins that Obama prevailed by.

but Obama was the ONLY choice after the primaries or 4 more years of Bush + Palin...

any DEM that won the primary season, and Obama did prevail narrowly, had a lock on this election unless they really screwed the pooch because of the anti-Bush backlash - that is FACT not revisionist history as some here are spinning

this site is for fact based statistical analysis [which the generic polls provideas proof] - not just hero worship that is so consuming that you block out hard, cold reality

Susan Weston said...

Nate,

Could you explain sometime about the red part of the graph? It looks to me like it's a simple reflection of the green part, adding no new information. I've seen Gallup displayed that way a lot, and I figure you'll know if there's important information added by the disapproval line.

Mike in Maryland said...

Statler N Waldorf said...
We had the largest population base, and could easily overpower those GOPers in Shreveport and Baton Rouge, so our statewide and federal elections were always Democratic wins.

Per usual, Statler is not presenting facts, but his delusional perceptions, and a large dose of hyperbole.

Facts about Louisiana:

1948, J. Strom Thurmond took 49.07% of the vote for President, Truman received 32.75%
Non-Democratic win.

1952, Adlai Stevenson received 52.92% of the vote, but Eisenhower received 47.08%

1956, Eisenhower received 53.28% of the vote, with Stevenson receiving 39.51%
Non-Democratic win.

1960, Kennedy received 50.42% of the vote, with 49.58% of the vote split between Nixon and 'Unpledged Electors'

1964, Goldwater received 56.81%, while Johnson received 43.19%
Non-Democratic win.

1968, Wallace received 48.32%, Humphrey received 28.21% and Nixon received 23.47%
Non-Democratic win.

1972, Nixon received 60.67% of the vote, McGovern received 37.52%
Non-Democratic win.

1976, Carter received 51.73% of the vote, Ford received 45.95%

1980, Ray-gun received 50.75% of the vote, Carter received 41.01%
Non-Democratic win.

1984, Ray-gun received 58.77% of the vote, Mondale received 40.56%
Non-Democratic win.

1988, GHW Bush received 53.37% of the vote, Dukakis received 45.65%
Non-Democratic win.

1992, Clinton received 45.58%, GHW Bush received 40.97%

1996, Clinton received 49.23%, GHW Bush received 40.72%

2000, little bush received 52.55%, Gore received 44.88%
Non-Democratic win.

2004, little bush received 56.72%, Kerry received 42.22%
Non-Democratic win.

In fact, of the 15 Presidential elections that were held in and between 1948 and 2004, the Democratic candidate did NOT win 10 of those elections. In other words, the Democratic candidate won .333333% of the Presidential elections in those years.

Hardly a pattern of 'always Democratic wins'.

DCM in FL said...

also how can even Nate fail to mention that in many of the modern era elections there was a deciding 'tipping point' event that determined the eventual winner

in other words, all things were NOT equal because:

1980 - Ayatollah Khomeini delays the Iran hostage release until AFTER the election [at the 'request' of Reagan envoys] = Reagan pulls ahead & wins easily in the end BUT much DEM bitterness prevails for a generation [or more] & costing Carter the election [Anderson was far less of a 3rd party factor in the end]

1992 - Ross Perot triangulates the electorate = Clinton wins with a mere plurality of the votes when the CW is that GW Bush would have won a 2 way

2000 - Nader & FL vote rigging & con SCOTUS = BUSH wins for losing the popular vote

2008 - Bush/Cheney backlash is overwhelming & palpable = Obama [or any generic DEM] wins in a walk

study actual history folks [not swallowing the revisionist rewrites] - candidates often win because of other events [October surprises] & not just on their merits or platforms

even FDR's 1st was due to the onset of the Great Depression more so than himself as a candidate

'circumstances', as much or more so than the candidate, dictated a 'change' when the electorate insisted on a real CHANGE

and go back to FDR's case; he refused to work with Hoover to try to head off the collapsing economy before, during & after the election while the nation sank & thousands of banks closed during the 'transition' since the Inauguartion back in 1933 was later in March

to his credit, Obama took a different approach than FDR - so I hope that will be a sign that maybe Obama learns from historical errors of his predecessors

loner said...

Susan—

It's the disapproval number. On the linked Gallup page there is a link to the page where the historical numbers can be found. Further down on the same page are approval-disapproval numbers after 100 or so days in office. It's not mentioned there, but Reagan was shot 69 days into his presidency.

DCM in FL said...

SUSAN

you are correct about the imposition of 2 linear regression lines on the same graph [as above]not yielding new or additional useful info.

but it does present a nice graphical representation that perhaps attempts too strongly to show a converging historical pattern...

Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Statler N Waldorf said...

MIM,

Well, I must say that as confrontational and prone to ad hominem attacks as you are, you do keep me honest. Now, would I ask you to report to the class how many Republicans have won the seat of Governor of Louisiana during the course of it's entire history as a state?

May I ask you to further report how many Senators Louisiana has elected from the Democratic party vs the GOP?

At the state and federal levels (the Senate being a federal body) Louisiana had consistently elected Democrats.

Jindal is the ONLY popularly elected Republican governor of Louisiana (during Reconstruction governors were appointed by the feds, not elected) EVER. In the entire history of the state of Louisiana, we have had ONE.

And he only won because of Katrina.


That's a pretty consistent pattern of Democratic wins.

Have you got anything else you would like to say?

californiascreaming said...

You selectively didn't mention there was a credible 3rd party candidate in 1980 in John Anderson who garnered 7% of the vote or 6 million in total. Considered a "Rockefeller Republican" he shed votes from Reagan. Liberals just wont admit Reagan was a bigger revolution than Obama. Reagan defeated an incumbent. Obama didnt run against an incumbent. Hillary would have garnered higher number than Obama. Obama is a cultural revolution not the political revolution, liberals think it will be. Reagan was a political revolution.

Michael said...

DCM posted as follows:

1992 - Ross Perot triangulates the electorate = Clinton wins with a mere plurality of the votes when the CW is that GW Bush would have won a 2 way

Who constituted that CW? Perot votes were anti-Bush. No way would Bush have won a straight contest with Clinton.

Mike in Maryland said...

Statler,

In my book (and I presume in most other people's books), 'always' is 'always', or 100%, or 15 out of 15.

Five out of 15 is not always.

As to the assertion that I make 'ad hominem attacks', just who has, for weeks, made derogatory remark after derogatory remark about the Baby Boom generation, lumping each and every member of the Baby Boom generation in your derogatory remarks?

I believe it has been you.

So much for your crass allegation that 'ad hominem attacks' have been aimed AT you, when most of the 'ad hominem attacks' have been coming FROM you.

An ad hominem argument consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

My laying out the history of Presidential elections (federal elections) in Louisiana from 1948 to 2004, showing that the Democratic candidate won one of every three elections, was a DIRECT refutation of your crass assertion that the Democratic candidates 'always' won federal elections. As such, it was not an ad hominem attack.

If you are going to present information as FACT, be sure that the information you present is FACTUAL.

And that also applies to your crass assertion that every member of the Baby Boomer generation was implicit in the root cause of the problems we face today. That's like saying that every German citizen supported Hitler from January, 1933 to the very end of World War II in Europe. Many, perhaps most, did, but a very large number did not.

Michael said...

californiascreaming, defend this tendentious claim:

"Hillary would have garnered higher number than Obama."

I think that's absolutely crazy. Obama was much more popular in the Mountain West, at the very least. Hillary might possibly have won Arkansas, and maybe West Virginia. But you also have to consider that she had no viable organization, a big reason why she lost the primaries.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Whatever you old troll. You're on my iggy list from now on.

SantaTurdo said...

Please stick me on your iggy list, you little gaylord focker, statler lawndwarf.

Long time no see ya ape.

luv yer posts dcm (I bet that stands for soemthing very rude but I cant guess what!)

Nate, please moderate my posts.

Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
DCM in FL said...

MICHAEL

did you vote in the 1990's ? at the time, all of the 2 man race polling that I recall indicated that GW Bush would have prevailed over Clinton in a straight 2 way race [assuming Perot had not been a candidate or had dropped out]

same in 1996, IF Perot had actually not been in the race - before he was out of it & then back into it - the polling indicated it would have been a tight 2 way election between Clinton & Dole [a toss-up as I recall]

and that was with Bob Dole on the GOPer ticket - who was a McCain type of awful candidate over a long drawn out campaign

the 'tipping point' in both of Clinton's campaigns was that Perot was a formidable draw that skewed the final results

IF Hillary had been so bitter that she had run as an IND in the general - who do you think would be POTUS today ? [most likely not Obama]

SANTA - hate to disappoint ya, but DCM is not a hidden filthy message [ala 'Porridge Gun']... just my initials which I use in business so that I am not just another 'DAVID' on this site & elsewhere

kinda like FDR, JFK, LBJ, RFK, MLK & now BHO... or not [lol]

DCM in FL said...

BTW - George HW BUSH [39] approval ratings rebounded as soon as he lost the election to Clinton

He had almost 60% 'APPROVAL' in Jan '93 at Bill's Inauguration

in other words, Bush & Clinton BOTH had almost identical APPROVAL #'s in Jan, 1993

but Bush 39 did have higher 'disapproval #'s than Clinton at that moment

also, note that both Clinton & Bush had comparable APPROVAL #'s below 50% at the time of the Nov, '92 election - that race was a toss-up except for the Perot wild card

BOTH the winning & losing candidates APPROVAL #'s spiked once the election was over due to rallying around the POTUS & the perceived grace that 39 displayed in bowing out during the transition

waiting for a poll to show us what McCain's current APPROVAL rating is [my guess is it will also match Obamas] - once again history repeats itself, fwiw

Statler N Waldorf said...

DCM,

I should let you know that I've always had a fondness for boys named David. What does the C stand for?

Michael said...

I have voted in every presidential election since 1984. I recall that Nate doesn't agree with the claim that George HW Bush would have won reelection without Perot in the race. And I do not consider Perot analogous to Hillary Clinton. Clinton ran a primary against Obama as a Democrat. Perot was running as a different kind of candidate, not as a Republican who narrowly lost a primary.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Michael,

I have a friend who has a car he has nicknamed 'Ross the Peugot'.


Apparently, it's a pretty economical vehicle.

DCM in FL said...

MICHAEL

well we will never know, but the polling at that time & the strength of the GOP base indicates otherwise [or at least a very tight finish which the GOP are good at securing the win]

go back a bit further, Nixon most likely only beat Humphrey by a whisker in '68 [just before I got the vote myself - but at that time I lived in MN] because Nixon's southern strategy + George Wallace's strong 3rd party campaign where he won 5 states with 46 EV were the difference on election day

many 3rd party candidates have been THE tipping point in POTUS elections over the years

even in '68, besides the historical events involving Vietnam, LBJ, Gene McCarthy & RFK & MLK - on 11/4/69 Hubert Horatio Humphrey could have beaten Tricky Dick except for the the impact of Wallace which he could not overcome in the end

but HHH only ended up losing the popular plurality by less than 1% to Nixon despite endless handicaps such as the DEM convention & war & other baggage that he had to drag around & try to overcome [ala Mccain 2008]

he never really should have had a prayer BUT... at the time it was CW projected by polling trends that IF there had been at least one more week bedfore the vote, then the 'happy warrior' HHH would probably have pulled it out & saved the nation from Nixon

loner said...

but the polling at that time & the strength of the GOP base indicates otherwise [or at least a very tight finish which the GOP are good at securing the win]


Not really.

The effect of Ross Perot's candidacy has been a contentious point of debate for many years. In the ensuing months after the election, various Republicans asserted that Perot had acted as a spoiler, enough to the detriment of Bush to lose him the election. While many disaffected conservatives may have voted for Ross Perot to protest Bush's tax increase, further examination of the Perot vote in the Election Night exit polls not only showed that Perot siphoned votes equally among Clinton, Bush, and those staying home if Perot had not been a candidate, but of the voters who cited Bush's broken "No New Taxes" pledge as "very important," two thirds voted for Bill Clinton. A mathematical look at the voting numbers reveals that Bush would have had to win 12.2% of Perot's 18.8% of the vote, 65% of Perot's support base, to earn a majority of the vote, and would have needed to win nearly every state Clinton won by less than five percentage points.

That's from the wikipedia.org entry on the 1992 election.

DCM in FL said...

just to make sure I have my recollections facts correct for the '68 election, I just researched it & yes I am proud to say I was correct [as usual, well except for typing errors anyway]

per WIKI @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1968

'Election'

The election on November 5, 1968 proved to be extremely close, and it was not until the following morning that the television news networks were able to call Nixon the winner.

The key states proved to be California, Ohio, and Illinois, all of which Nixon won by three percentage points or less.

Had Humphrey carried all three of these states, he would have won the election.

Had Humphrey carried any two of them (or just California), George Wallace would have succeeded in his aim of preventing an electoral college majority for any candidate, and the decision would have been given to the House of Representatives.

Nixon won the popular vote with a plurality of 512,000 votes, or a victory margin of about one percentage point.

In the electoral college Nixon's victory was larger, as he carried 32 states with 301 electoral votes, to Humphrey's 13 states and 191 electoral votes and Wallace's five states and 46 electoral votes.
----------------------------------

but for some reason, historians & people tend to overlook how close the '68 election came to going to the House or with HHH beating Nixon

IF just CA had gone for HHH, Nixon would not have won - in fact HHH might have prevailed in the House by cutting a deal with the southern DEMs supporting Wallace

historians call it a 'realignment' election [shades of 2008] - but in reality it only came about by a whisker & was strongly a 'law & order'/anti-war/racial animus [Wallace] reactionism

Nixon did leverage his '68 squeaker for all it was worth [as had JFK in '60]

so I am not ready to bank this latest election as a major realignment until a few cycles of success when there is less of an anti-BUSH effect on the ballot box

DCM in FL said...

LONER

that quote you pasted is not conclusive, but it makes the same point I was trying to make

first Perot votes are not spread equally or had the same impact across every state - they were concentrated [same for other 3rd party candidates like Wallace, Anderson, Nader, Barr, etc]

it is at the margins where the impact of the vote is felt - which states coulda/woulda swung to the other major party candidate IF it was a 2 way race

you failed to note that 39 was closing at the end [as usual as the base rallies]

he needed to peel off 102 EV votes from Clinton to prevail & could have done it except for the Perot factor in a combination from the 'close states' list below from the same WIKI entry:

'92 Close states

Georgia, 0.59%
North Carolina, 0.79%
New Hampshire, 1.22%
Ohio, 1.83%
Florida, 1.89%
Arizona, 1.95%
New Jersey, 2.37%
Montana, 2.51%
Nevada, 2.63%
Kentucky, 3.21%
Texas, 3.48%
South Dakota, 3.52%
Colorado, 4.26%
Wisconsin, 4.35%
Virginia, 4.38%
Louisiana, 4.61%
Tennessee, 4.65%

do the math - while that sounds insurmountable, the list of very close state results indicates it could have happened except for the 'tipping point' of Perot

you missed the quote:

"The race narrowed, as Perot's number's significantly improved as Clinton's number's declined, while Bush's numbers remained more or less the same from earlier in the race[14] as Perot and Bush began to hammer at Clinton on character issues once again."

Perot was the major determining factor in giving Clinton the leg up as his base was not deep enough on it's own to carry him to victory in the 2 way race

plus of course, Clinton was a good candidate who had a bad economy to bash Bush with endlessly - the generic DEM in '92 would probably have lost to GHW Bush in all likelihood

Michael said...

DCM, not all the "close" states went for Clinton. Keep in mind that of the states you list, Bush won AZ, FL, NC, SD, TX, and VA in 1992.

Raw preelection polling doesn't prove that much. Remember that preelection polls showed GW beating Gore in the popular vote, as well. Maybe if 538.com had been around then, with Nate correcting for Pollster-Introduced Error, things might have been clearer in advance of the 1992 election, too. It was close, but Bush was not popular, and I maintain that he would not have won in a two-person contest. People went into the polling booth and couldn't bring themselves to vote for him.

DCM in FL said...

and how did you fail to analysis the VOTER DEMOS that were displayed in the same WIKI article on the '92 election

they show conclusively how much more Perot damaged Bush's base than Clinton's base:

THE PRESIDENTIAL VOTE IN SOCIAL GROUPS (IN PERCENTAGES)
% of
1992
total
vote 3-party vote 1992
Social group/Clinton/Bush/Perot
Total vote 43 37 19
Party and ideology
2 Liberal Republicans 17 54 30
13 Moderate Republicans 15 63 21
21 Conservative Republicans 5 82 13
4 Liberal Independents 54 17 30
15 Moderate Independents 43 28 30
7 Conservative Independents 17 53 30
13 Liberal Democrats 85 5 11
20 Moderate Democrats 76 9 15
6 Conservative Democrats 61 23 16
------------------------------------

the #'s show MUCH more defection to Perot from the GOPer base than from the DEM, and that could easily have been enough to swing the election to Bush in enough of the very 'close' conservative states on the list above - those are FACTS

DCM in FL said...

oops, I failed to note that the PEROT impact in '92 was strongest in the INDEPENDENTs [30%] & the Reagan DEMs as well as substantially greater acrooss the entire GOP base than with the DEM base as the chart above shows

the #'s do not lie - Perot hurt Bush's base & with INDs much more than he drew from Clinton's base

loner said...

DCM in FL—

Run the numbers on those exit poll numbers. I provided the meaningful quote. Perot was important for any number of reasons, but the primary one concerned the timing of his departure from the race. Clinton established a lead and kept it. Bush, like Carter, knew he had no real chance of winning when election day 1992 dawned. The difference between 1980 and 1992 is that in 1992 those of us who paid attention to what the campaigns were doing knew it too.

Tony C. said...

Hey Nate,

What is Obama's polarization rate compared to other presidents?

The disapproval is obviously negatively correlated to the approval; so if we take out the predictable part of the disapproval, how does Obama rank then?

I think the larger the amount of disapproval unexplained by the approval, the more polarizing the president.

jobuca said...

DCM, who is this 39 you keep referring to? George HW Bush was our 41st President not our 39th.

WV: prepti, a drink made from upper-class high schoolers

Statler N Waldorf said...

Mike in Maryland,

I've decided to make my peace with you. During the course of the night, it occurred to me that GLBTs are few in number and our allies almost as few. If I fight with you over something petty, like your generation, I do harm to the entire community and thus myself, because that means we are less likely to work together to secure our mutual freedom.

Do I like you? No. Do I still have resentments over the mess Baby Boomers have left my generation to deal with? Yes. I just don't see that as important anymore.

It's better that we work together. After we have managed to secure equality for GLBTs in America, we can resume tearing each other's throats out over generational differences.

Dvd Avins said...

After the 1980 elections, the GOP may have been superficially a distinct minority in the House, but there were a lot of Southern Conservative Democrats who would not now be elected Democrats.

These Boll Weevils aligned themselves with the GOP on almost everything except the organizing resolution, giving the GOP substantive control of both hoses for Reagan's first two years.

Jeff said...

Two other considerations: Obama has had an absurdly favorable media; the coverage has been servile. Reagan was vilified by the media as a right wing nitwit.

Secondly: Reagan ran on a clear program, and thus had a mandate to effect the changes he did (on taxes, the military etc.) Obama ran on personality, and thus does not have a clear mandate for anything (except perhaps, to withdraw from Iraq - although that, ironically, is now a non issue really).

Tony C. said...

Jeff: Wow, hard to believe anybody is that locked in by pre-concieved notions.

Obama's mandate is clear, both his own and that of the Democrats. The public voted overwhelmingly to reject the Republican, Bush, Cheney and Rove politics. Every attempt to use such politics by Hillary or by McCain backfired on them, even Obama's preacher problem, which four years ago would have buried any politician no matter how silver-tongued, was rejected.

Not because of personality but because we Obama supporters believe repeating the old politics of fear and division with EITHER Hillary or McCain will cause permanent damage to America and our freedom.

Obama's mandate is to undo the damage caused by Bush. The Iraq war is NOT a non-issue to the soldiers still dying there every week, or their families, or the people like me that are just friends with or sympathize with the parents losing children and the spouses losing partners for the lies told by Bush and Cheney.

Obama's mandate is to do what he promised on the campaign trail: Middle class tax cuts, universal health care, a new and renewable energy approach and a new kind of politics grounded in partisan compromise instead of partisan extremes. About 70% of Americans want him to succeed in his efforts to improve the economy, refocus the military on the terrorists that attacked us, and all the myriad other things on his plate.

Obama's mandate from the people is clear, he won in a landslide and he made clear, measurable promises during his campaign. We expect him to deliver on them.

Michael said...

Not only that, but almost everyone except for Jeff considers Reagan a textbook case of a politician totally charming the media into near lapdoggery. And to be fair, even his political opponents, such as Tip O'Neill, found him personally charming, so I'm not simply _blaming_ the press here. The combination of the charm, the good acting skills, and the charisma made Reagan singularly effective in using the media to sell his persona and message. I've never seen any other president get such good press in my lifetime.

Michael said...

DCM, didn't you leave out any data on how many of the Perot voters, of whatever ideological bent, simply would have stayed home if he hadn't run? Your figures are not conclusive at all.

saucyjack88 said...

I hope this comment gets read: I think the main reason that Reagan had such huge political capital is that he defeated a SITTING president who was running for re-election, something that hadn't happened since Hoover (not counting Ford for obvious reasons). That makes a major difference in the numbers, IMHO.

Tony C. said...

saucyjack88: Good point; and Obama cannot say the same, but his overwhelming victory in red states and the dismal approval ratings of Bush speaks to a similar effect. Defeating a sitting president, Carter, was a rejection of Carter's economic and foreign policy (so was Kennedy's strong opposition to a sitting president in the 1980 Democratic primary).

Obama didn't have the chance to defeat Bush, but their numbers indicate he probably would have done so.

emcee fleshy said...

I think that the initial Reagan approval poll was just wrong.

1) It seems unlikely that he'd get no goodwill/honeymoon bounce.

2) Poll are designed to have 95% confidence, so one in 20 polls is bad. And out of 8 polls, it's not terribly unlikely that one is bad. (and this is certainly the weirdest-looking one)

and, more importantly,

3) Looking at the chart over at Gallup.com, you see that Reagan's post-100-days numbers were more in line with what you might expect from a guy with 489 EVs. Indeed, he has the highest 100-day jump on the chart.

So it seems more reasonable that the initial poll was off somehow.

(Personally, I strongly disapprove of Reagan either way. But I just think that 51% number is probably from a 28-year-old bad poll.)

emcee fleshy said...

On the other hand, he did get shot, which could explain much of the 100-day difference. Still, I think the first Reagan approval is probably a bad poll.

rmadilo said...

Obama owes his high approval rating to his own rhetoric. He did not get elected because of a momentary alignment of his words and the national consensus. He won because he controlled the debate, set the terms and defended all challenges.

In the end, political debate is important. If you enter such a debate with stale arguments, expect to lose.

This is Obama's message: your cheerleaders will not protect you.

DCM in FL said...

MC - in 1980, Reagan's victory was highly polarizing [unlike Obama's]

especially when the Iran hostage crisis miraculously ended post-election, it rankled the partisan DEM base that the election was 'stolen' or manipulated

Reagan did not enter office with a strong sense of goodwill or 'mandate' in 1980

Grenada & Iran/Contra later proved that Ronnie Raygun would in fact do anything to further his agenda

shades of Bush & the GOPers in 2000 [FL & SCOTUS] & then again in 2004 [OH & Bin Laden]

DCM in FL said...

hey ARMADILLO

quit rooting up my yard at night, you pesky pest you !!!

imho Obama owes his lofty APPROVAL ratings to being the anti-BUSH more than anything

of course those that DISAPPROVE of BHO consider him the anti-christ...

he will need to continue to placate the fickle IND segments of the electorate or else his #'s will soon regress to the mean of the DEM base in the 40's cuz he can only continue to kick the Bush dead horse for so long before that meme will no longer sell sufficiently

but I wish him luck & godspeed cuz he will need all that & a big bag of chips...

hhhmmm - reminds me that I have not heard BHO talk about sweet potato pie since the campaign ended... [yum]

instead of a 'chicken in every pot' he should promise 'a sweet potato pie for all'

why, that would stimulate the economy [oops, the Pie Hole already got shut down...] as well as taste good - or is it less [pie] filling ?

and it would cost alot less than a trillion dollars !

Michael said...

DCM, I think that Reagan was already non-feasant with alzheimer's during the Iran-Contra Scandal and was actually being truthful when he said that he didn't believe he had traded arms for hostages. I believe that George HW Bush was secretly running it. Remember that he was a CIA man.

klevenstein said...

What about the approval minus disapproval spread?

It seems to trend downward starting with Eisenhower, until you get to Reagan. Then, we suddenly get 40% with no opinion (apparently), which continues with GHW Bush, jumping back to 20% with no opinion starting at Clinton.

Lok at the jump in the spread between GW Bush (32%) and Obama (58%). That's massive.

californiascreaming said...

Nate you are over-rated. You still fail to mention John Anderson and 6 Million votes that would have gone to Reagan. His electoral margin was never in doubt.

preston said...

The data on the graph suggest to my eyeballs that Democrats tend to be elected with higher approval ratings that Republicans. Anyone else see this trend?

Tony C. said...

preston: Democrats tend to be elected with higher approval ratings that Republicans.

I'd speculate on two reasons. Perhaps Republicans can be elected with lower approval ratings because they have historically gotten more of their base out. Democrats have had trouble getting the base out, even when the base approves of the candidates.

My second speculation is that the core beliefs of conservatives lead to belligerence, secrecy, fraud, and authoritarianism. All of these are bad for the economy in the modern world. Wars use to be good for the economy; but when missiles are a million each and the public is horrified by every casualty, wars are a net drain on the economy (although war equipment profiteers will still rake it in).

So it may be that at the end of Republican rule, people are so sick of it they approve of the Democrat in greater number. That would mean approval is relative to the previous administration; if you hate them you give good marks to whatever is the opposite of it. The corollary would be that Democrats don't screw up the country nearly as bad as Republicans do.

L.A. said...

@Rose...

"The problem Obama is going to have is he doesn't have the support of people like me - the basic law and order crowd, who believe in supporting your President despite disagreements."

Basically you're saying, Obama doesn't have your support because he's not law and order. So therefore you don't really support your President despite disagreements, which you claim to do.

Your whole statement/point is contradictory.

LOL

Tony C. said...

L.A: Ha! Good catch.

Rose isn't "law and order"; she thinks the president is above the law and she can't disagree even if he is operating outside the law. She believes in a monarchy or dictatorship of the president, not law and order.

G. Hendricks said...

The reason for Reagan’s election is threefold: a) Nixon’s Southern Strategy- see his states’ rights speech in Phil., MS; b) Carter’s mediocre performance; c) the Iran hostage crisis. Without the confluence of those 3 elements, Reagan never comes within sniffing distance of the White House.

Prior to 1980, Reagan was a joke even within the GOP; he was considered an intellectual lightweight, and a pale imitation of Goldwater, the true father of the modern, and now discredited conservative movement. And yes, the media was in the bag for Reagan, even after it was revealed that he had the most corrupt administration since Harding.

Obama was elected because he was the best candidate, and because he ran a clean and positive campaign in an era of sleaze, xenophobia, and racism. The reason Obama’s President is because he stands for things, and not just against Republicans. He and his posse are brimming with ideas, whereas the GOP’s intellectually bankrupt.

Finally, Obama’s firmly in the center of political thought, and only those on the Far Right believe that he’s Far Left. He simply seems to be left-wing because the last quarter century has been so far right, with the brief Clinton interregnum of centre-right rule. The fact is that the election represented a political shift back to the center, and a rejection of the Far Right that got us into this current debacle.

Mercury said...

"On the other hand, Obama won a *lot* more popular votes than Reagan did."

That might have something to do with the fact that the country now has about 1 and 1/2 times as many people in it.

Using this patently misleading statistic as evidence of Obama's better support doesn't inspire much confidence in the rest of this site. You're slipping, Nate.

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Scotty said...

Please please remove the Reagan photo from your home page. :-) TIA

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