I'm happy that Harvard University economist/blogger Greg Mankiw has decided that his blog is an appropriate place to respond to my "blogosphere commentary" (Intellectual Dishonesty (Gasp!) from a Conservative Economist) about his New York Times article today. His response, however leaves me even more doubtful that there is a serious conservative argument to be made against the broad outlines of Barack Obama's stimulus package.
My claim was that Mankiw willfully and intentionally misinterpreted this paper by Christina and David Romer about the macroeconomic effects of tax cuts. Mankiw's claim is that I naively and unintentionally misinterpreted it. Romer and Romer's distinction between between "exogenous" and "endogenous" tax cuts, Mankiw says, is merely an artifact of their research design, rather than a limitation of the potential applications of their findings to the recession.
The endogenous/exogenous distinction certainly is an element of the Romers' research design -- and a clever one at that. But this is not mutually exclusive with it also being a limitation on the applicability of the paper to a recessionary tax cut. In fact, I would argue that it is something approaching an express limitation: when Romer and Romer talk in their paper about countercyclical tax cuts, such as the ones now being contemplated as part of the stimulus package, they are decidedly lukewarm on them: "[P]olicymakers’ efforts to adjust taxes to offset anticipated changes in private economic activity have been largely unsuccessful", they write.
Granted, this type of tax cut is not the principal focus of the paper, so perhaps there is some room for interpretation. When I am writing to a large audience like that of the New York Times, my preference is to cite others' work more conservatively rather than more broadly, but in the digital age such courtesies are frequently ignored.
That notwithstanding, it is not like the paper is some founders' document or Dead Sea Scroll whose every fragment we must struggle to interpret. Christina Romer is a living, breathing economist -- very much so, in fact, since she's taking Mankiw's old job as the head of the President's Council of Economic Advisers. And when Romer had to estimate the multiplier associated with the sort of recessionary tax cut that Mankiw is talking about, as she did just yesterday (!) in the transition team's official position paper on the stimulus, she estimated a multiplier of $0.99 for every dollar of tax cuts rather than $3.00. So Mankiw is either suggesting that he knows Romer's work better than Romer does (even though he conceded in his New York Times editorial that the mechanism behind Romer's finding remains a "puzzle" to him), or he is in effect accusing Romer of being less than true to herself.
But there is another dead giveaway in the Romer paper suggesting that it is explicitly not intended to be applied as a one-size-fits-all fiscal policy solution. Romer and Romer identify not just one type of "exogenous" tax shock, but two. The first type is a spontaneous, 'just because' kind of tax cut "motivated by a desire to raise long-run growth". This is the type that Romer and Romer posit is associated with a large multiplier -- the large multiplier than Mankiw cites in the Times piece. The second type of "exogenous" tax shock is a tax increase motivated by a desire to pay off a budget deficit. Would this type of tax increase also be associated with a substantial reduction in growth? No, according to Romer and Romer. Instead they find that such a tax hike "do[es] not have the large output costs associated with other exogenous tax increases" and may in fact be beneficial to the economy!
So Romer and Romer identify two types of exogenous tax shocks, one associated with a larger-than-conventionally-assumed multiplier, and the other associated with a smaller-than-conventionally-assumed multiplier -- perhaps even one in which the sign is reversed. In considering a third type of tax cut, an "endogenous" tax cut designed to stimulate growth during a recession, what basis does Mankiw to assume that it will behave more like the former than the latter?
He doesn't have any, as far as I can tell. The more conservative reading of the Romer paper is that it is agnostic on a recessionary tax cut. The next-most conservative reading is that it is actively, if cautiously, skeptical about one. Mankiw's reading, on the other hand, does not appear to come from the text of the paper itself, nor from the other works and statements of Romer, some of which in fact contradict Mankiw's reading.
Perhaps, then, the context for Mankiw's interpretation lies outside the paper -- from work that other economists have done? Actually, this is a bit of a problem as well, because the reason the paper is a source of such wonderment is because it contradicts so much "conventional" (a.k.a. Keynesian) economic thinking.
This doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong -- all great ideas must have their genesis somewhere.
But the analogy is that Mankiw uses in his blog entry, that of the clinical trial, seems to be the right one. This paper is the equivalent of a very early stage clinical trial -- it has not even been thoroughly peer-reviewed, much less its result replicated by other economists. Its mechanisms are conjectural and poorly understood. And frankly, it's a little counterintuitive -- a 300 percent multiplier on a tax cut is a very large multiplier indeed, large enough that it seems as though its impacts would have become manifest sometime and somewhere, by some tax-cutting prince in some supply-side neverland.
To extend the analogy: imagine that the patient -- the economy -- has cancer of the bladder. There is a safe, proven, therapy for cancer of the bladder -- the Government Purchases Therapy. This achieves solid but not spectacular results, preventing a recurrence about 70 percent of the time but sometimes with significant side-effects. And then there is an experimental therapy, the Mankiw Magic Tax Cut Therapy, which promises to restore the patient to full health within six weeks with no risk of a recurrence -- except that it has never been tested on rats, let alone humans, and it's a therapy for liver cancer, rather than bladder cancer. Which course of action are you going to take?
The objection to this, I suppose, is that if the tax cuts are experimental, they are also liable to be fairly benign, and would not contradict the "safe" remedy, which is government purchases. I think this is in fact a relatively thoughtful objection. If we can afford the tax cuts, they probably won't hurt us, and there's always the chance that they could help. What we don't want to do, however, is to take the tax cut therapy but simultaneously cut the government purchases therapy to half of its recommended dosage.
1.11.2009
Is There a Serious Conservative Argument Against the Stimulus?
by Nate Silver @ 7:13 PM...see also econometrics, economy, stimulus, taxes
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156 comments
First!
Seriously, Nate. This AssRider thing is out of control. Guy needs to be arrested. Anybody know where he is. I'll personally file a complaint with his local authorities.
What I said before about Mankiw (Bush 43's Chief economic advisor) still holds:
"Great job, Brownie."
Now why don't you just slink off like the pathetic neo-con troll that you have shown yourself to be.
can someone please explain to me why economists are even considering whether tax cuts can be more effective than public spending in the private sector?
my reasoning is this: give money to business, don't give money to people who in turn may or may not give it to business.
it just doesn't make sense to me...
Mule, your mom wants you to know that you have homework and dishes to do. Now get with the program, boy!
It's magic! Say the words "Homework and dishes" and Mule vanishes! Ha!
Nate,
I think you should be very fearful of this Mule Rider character. He has made some very serious and disturbing threats against you.
Not to be a worry wart, and it's rare when it happens, but sometimes some truly tragic and horrific things have happened that started with initial threats such as the ones coming from Mule Rider.
It's likely he's just some kid or misanthrope who wouldn't harm a fly; then again, he could really be a raging lunatic - sort of like one of those obsessed freaks who turn nutso over certain celebrities - who really will try and do something to you.
FWIW.
Genius as always, Nate. I patiently await his reply...
Thanks, Nate. Sorry you have to keep dealing with this nutcase.
On topic: After reading the article and resultant commentary. I'd have to side with Nate. Both perspectives will produce an outcome, I personally don't agree with Mankiw's.
We're discussing something similar in my Sustainable Business class so this is good fodder for next week.
There's only one argument against the stimulus that makes sense to me. Who's gonna pay for it?
The Chinese, most likely, and anyone else that buys T-bills. Problem being, this makes our already staggering deficit unimaginably huge.
Now, most Baby Boomers and older probably will not live to see the day when we actually have to pay everything back. But that day will come. Should anyone holding a pile of T-Bills call in our debts once they have matured, we will have to pay up or face out of control inflation resulting from nobody in their right mind buying any more T-Bills from us every again (since we will have defaulted on the ones mentioned above).
This is all tempered by the fear alot of Americans have about the economic present. So, here is the question: Do we save ourselves by borrowing a shitload of money on credit and passing the debt on to generations following us?
Do we save ourselves by shooting our kids?
Unsettling thought, no?
Now, if the stimulus works, and we are able to bail our way out of debt, then it doesn't matter, since we can pay everything off before the bill hits.
But what if it doesn't? The people left holding the bag for our fuckups won't be the baby boomers, who will all be dead by then - it'll be the Millenials and the generation that follows us.
Daddy, what was America like before you sent us into bankruptcy?
We can pay the T-Bills off rather easily by inflating our currency, A.la Germany post WWI.
A better question, after we are obviously inflating our currency, why does China keep purchasing it?
Nate-
Go to haloscan for comments and block him.
As for nutcases, I am truly sorry you need to deal with true nutjobs like Manky "little man" Mankiwits (or lack thereof). I left academia specifically because assholes like him believe their own press to the extent that peer review is more akin to thought control.
Love your lost Nate - great and thoughtful work!
Manky, your just got owned, twice - go back to Harvard and let the little children tell you how smart you are - you can't handle the real world.
Statler, surely we should save money by borrowing against our kids and passing them on to the Chinese? Let them deal with annoying adolescents!
I'd also add this earlier post from Mankiw:
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/01/obamas-multipliers.html
The first two paragraphs:
Team Obama has released its analysis of fiscal stimulus, coauthored by CEA Chair-designate Christina Romer and Vice President-elect adviser Jared Bernstein. If you go to the penultimate page, you can find the fiscal policy mutlipliers they assume. For government purchases, their multiplier is 1.57; for taxes, 0.99.
These are reasonable figures in light of mainstream models. But, as I pointed out in an earlier post, these models might well have things backward. Apparently, Team Obama is not convinced by the recent research of Christina and David Romer, who conclude:
***
Wuh? Romer v. Romer, 2009.
I agree that we have a huge problem with debt in the world right now. Was it Germany that cut a debt offering last week from 6 billion to 4.5 billion because they lacked buyers? I think the problem is larger though, and I worry that some Western democracy is running a pnzi scheme - essentially issuing more money than they are selling in debt. Where is that gold standard again?
I echo the concerns about Mule Rider. And I wouldn't take his threats lightly.
Rumor is that he was on another blog several months ago and got into a shouting match with someone.
Anyway, similar threats were made, and it turns out that the other blogger wound up dying a mysterious death.
Was it coincidence? Maybe. But if I were Nate, I wouldn't take this Mule Rider clown lightly. He could be dangerous. Very dangerous.
Ricky Bobby here playing the conspiracy theorist! LOL! Got some facts behind that post? Got a link?
Did men land on the moon in your mind? Just curious...
yazz- well, at least they'll learn how to do math and be able to speak a few more languages besides English if we do.
proudfoot - har de har har
Listen, I've read about how in the past Americans wanted a better life for their kids than what they themselves got, and that's why they sacrificed and worked shitty jobs. My great grandparents came here as farm workers from Eastern Europe and Asia, and none of them could speak English. Even though they worked at shitty jobs that make me cringe just to think about (inhaling pesticides, back breaking, never ending work, living in a single house with 5 other families, never enough to eat, etc), the upside is eventually their decedents got to go to college and enjoy a good life.
Now you guys are telling me we should do the opposite- fuck over our kids just so we can keep the party going a little longer. Sell em into debt slavery before they're even born.
Doesn't that make you just a little bit nauseous?
Ricky Bobby, which blog, precisely? Or are you just Mule Rider trying to pretend to be "very dangerous"? Mule Rider is a pathetic little boy, with no guts and a tiny little mind. His mother slept with hamsters and his father smells of juniper berries.
Statler-
You seem to forget that a scant 8 years ago we were running huge surpluses. We can get back there, but going into a depression helps noone.
You and Manky can keep crying wolf, the rest of us will make what we currently believe to be the best ways to get us back to those surpluses, the first of which is to ignore true believers like Bush, Cheney, Rummie, and Manky.
Statler N Waldorf said...
Now you guys are telling me we should do the opposite- fuck over our kids just so we can keep the party going a little longer. Sell em into debt slavery before they're even born.
Doesn't that make you just a little bit nauseous?
Statler, in making life decisions, we should always do what Ronald Reagan would have done. So yes, debt slavery for the brats and parties for me! It's the Republican thing to do. Anyway, look at Mule Rider. Don't you feel that selling him to the Chinese would solve multiple problems? Assuming that they accept him!
@fred-
Hey, I said it was rumor. Probably nothing to it. But someone that Mule Rider got crossways with wound up dead. That's what's been circulating around.
I was simply offering a warning in the hopes it'd be taken at face value and that Nate wouldn't just dismiss that nutjob as just a rambling idiot. He should work to protect himself as the consequences of not doing so could result in something very bad happening.
Mule Rider seems like a dangerous psycopath.
I really wish you hadn't dug your heels in with this post. You should just admit that you wrote a snarky post but that you were in fact mistaken. People would respect you more for it. As it stands, anyone who understands what the Romers were trying to do in that paper are going to lose respect for you. Maybe next time...
Normally I am a 110% fan of Nate and Obama, but I think in this case Nate is a bit off, and if I were making a similar mistake I would want to be corrected.
I do economic cost/benefit analysis for federal energy efficiency regulations. And in our analysis, we do long-term employment impacts. (See: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/commercial/pdfs/transformer_fr_tsd/chapter14.pdf) for an example.
I am certainly no fan of conservative economists, but I think that to jump to the accusation of intellectual dishonesty is a bit too much, and I do think there are serious errors in the analysis that Romer posted in justifying the stimulus and estimating its impacts.
Ultimately the the stimulus will be paid for by issuing government debt. Because this extra debt needs to be serviced, there will either an increase in taxes or a decrease in government expenditures over the long term to repay the debt. This long term cost is not included in Romer's recent analysis.
The one thing that Mankiw did advocate in his NYT article was: " a rigorous cost-benefit analysis of each government project." By not including the impact of the long-term increase in debt service Romer has over-stated the net benefits of the stimulus package when it is looked at over the longer term.
I also take some issue with not including the potential longer-term benefits of increased savings during a cyclical downturn in deriving the tax cut stimulus multiplier. Savings during a cyclical downturn helps make capital available for the economic recovery phase of the cycle. The stimulus multipliers do not count the benefits of stimulus-induced savings. I think this is also a mistake on the part of Nate and Romer in focusing on only the very short-term tax cut multiplier.
It is exactly coming out of a cyclical downturn when private investment is needed most, and when private investment yields its highest returns.
Mankiw has a valid point in arguing that we should look beyond the one-year GDP multiplier, and that we should look at the stimulus as a public investment that should be subject to a technically correct cost/benefit analysis.
In general, the trade-off between spending and tax cuts is a false one. And Obama's people are smart enough to know this. Some spending has a long term benefit cost ratio exceeding 1 and so does some tax cuts. At this moment we should be doing all spending and tax cuts that have a benefit cost ratio exceeding 1 when the actual cost of the increased long term debt burden is properly factored in.
Right now Romer is not factoring in the cost of the increased long-term debt burden the analysis that has been released to date. This should be corrected. And arguments over the intellectual dishonesty of economists whose politics we don't like should not prevent us from making such technical corrections.
Got a link to the rumor? You admitted you have no facts, but certainly there is a comment section from another blog from several months ago..right?
"But someone that Mule Rider got crossways with wound up dead. That's what's been circulating around."
And where has it been circulating, exactly? Ricky Bobby, either you substantiate the claims, or I call bullshit and name you as Mule Rider or his mentally defective peasant cousin. And it's true about the hamsters and juniper berries!
Fred -
I hope you're right. I hope we do in fact win the lottery and pay off all our debts. Because if you're wrong and we just wagered our future generations' lives on that same lottery ticket, then we are monsters far worse than any previous generation.
Incidentally, could you watch the ad hominem attacks? If you have to resort to insulting your opponent personally rather than attacking their logic, it means that you can't attack their logic, and you're just covering up for a weak argument.
My political allegiance is irrelevant to this discussion, but if you would care to pull your head out of your ass and read any of my prior posts, you will find that I am actually a Democrat, and a liberal to boot.
Surprising how quickly you're alienating your own base, isn't it? If we who disagree with the party platform have to put up with this bullshit every time we say anything that doesn't sound like a Yes Man echo chamber, soon you will find few Democrats left to look to for support.
I advise you to listen when your own kind disagrees with you.
It's funny how economists passionately (for economists, anyway) argue over policy. Each of them can present cogent points yet still read what they want in the tea leaves. Mr Nordquist's 'apples v. oranges' example in a previous post.
Admittedly, economics is not one of my strong suits, but how is this administration going to be able to know who's right? Even Krugman has doubts and I'm inclined to take his word at face value. I don't think we're ever going to have consensus on how we push our little piles of numbers around.
Personally, I've been predicting a Roman Empire type collapse for a long time. I think we are nearly there; particularly if China calls in the debt. All the shekels in the world won't keep us from drowning. I hope I'm wrong.
fred and yazzel,
Nevermind. I'm not here to get in some kind of ridiculous debate with you two. I was only trying to offer sound advice to Nate to look out for himself and beware of internet psychos.
Nothing wrong with that in being a concerned fan. So unless this directly impacts either of you, I'm going to ask that you just leave it alone and let me advise Nate in peace and tell him to be careful.
RVB-
I disagree. You stated:
"Ultimately the the stimulus will be paid for by issuing government debt. Because this extra debt needs to be serviced, there will either an increase in taxes or a decrease in government expenditures over the long term to repay the debt. This long term cost is not included in Romer's recent analysis."
Yes, and we are currently able to seel debt at historically low rates - nearing zero. Smart people take advantage of the downturn, the government should to.
You went on to say:
"Mankiw has a valid point in arguing that we should look beyond the one-year GDP multiplier, and that we should look at the stimulus as a public investment that should be subject to a technically correct cost/benefit analysis."
And I say so...
This is exactly what Obama has said about the stimulus from day fucking one! What the hell do you and Maky think, that Obama and Summers are too dumb to see that? Did you see the analysis of unemployment the Obama team released today about unemployment with and with out their stimulus? Howe much would 3 or 4 extra points on the unemployment rate cost us on unemployment insurance alone?
Obama gets it, Summers gets it, I don't think our latest Nobel winner does, and Mankiw sure seems to be Rupert's lapdog right now.
Icky Bubby, you can cut the crap now. You are just a pathetic sock-puppet for the illiterate troll Mule Rider. Not such a great hacker or manly man are you, eh? Now, quit lying about yourself and go and do the dishes.
@yazzel-
Not really following your inane drivel, so I'll be sure to ignore you from now on.
@ Ricky Bobby: Rumor is that he was on another blog several months ago and got into a shouting match with someone . . . the other blogger wound up dying a mysterious death.
Really? The rumor I heard was that the other blogger found out Mule Rider's identity and address and posted it on the internet, whereupon Mule Rider was promptly laughed out of town by his neighbors and co-workers. Which is why he now lives under a bridge.
Get real. Mule Rider is an impotent fool who probably never leaves his house, given his obvious mental and social deficiencies. But making death threats is still illegal. A visit from the FBI might encourage him to knock off the crap.
Nate, can you make a post and give us a little more info about what is going on with mulerider? How does this continue to happen?
Statler-
I can read, you can't. I didn't call you a Republican or a neo-con. I called you a true believer, which you are.
I like Obama exactly because he is not a true believer, and will do what he thinks is best whether it is a repub or a dem idea.
To your final point - I am not sure we have any choice to spend. I am a liberal but I loved the Clinton balanced budget too. That said, how do we get out of this without spending? I actually believe the Obama teams numbers on unemployment and how this stops the rise, and I am not sure how get out of it without this.
Nate, I do appreciate all the time and energy you're putting into this. And I am happy to see such a detailed discussion, complete with numbers.
I still wonder about what seems to be your position over the past couple posts, along the lines of "tax cuts aren't very effective, but they won't hurt so don't worry about them." Why would we want to give up a significant amount of "bang for the buck"? Instead of paying $300B for tax cuts, we could spend $191B on spending and get the same result. What fiscal conservative would turn their back on that?? (Yes, I know it doesn't work that way...)
The only reason I've seen for including tax cuts in the package is to ensure its passage by appeasing Congressional ideologues.
I have recently (~10 min) concocted an alternative hypothesis, which is that Obama is expecting tax increases down the road for specific purposes, e.g. a health care tax, maybe a carbon tax, a payroll tax on upper incomes, etc. So, perhaps he's trying to "prime the pump" by first passing tax cuts under the guise of a stimulus package, so that after future tax increases, the net tax burden (esp on business) is about the same as today. This would be consistent with Obama's recent statements that he's "not out to increase the size of government long-term" while also not backing away from his promises to reform health care, fix Social Security, etc.
I don't know if I will still like this hypothesis 10 minutes from now, but at the moment it's the only one that makes sense to me.
No, the reason I have seen is that we don't have over 400 bilion in useful projects to fund. As discussed, we don't want to build museums for ducks, we want bridges and tunnels and the like.
@66gardeners
I think Nate would rather not encourage the guy by acknowledging the effect he seems to be having on the rest of us.
@RickyBobby
You're being accused of masquerading as AssRider. It's happened before so we're a little suspicious of unfounded rumours.
OK. Well, sorry to be a concerned citizen. As you were then.
Ricky Bobby, you are so obviously Mule Rider cringing back in disguise. What happened to all the death threats, eh? Did your Mom whip your hairy little... mule?
Dear Fred:
Most analysts would not consider that the cost of government debt is zero. While short term interest rates are close to zero, the debt would not be paid for many years, so a better analogy would be the 10-year T-bill. I agree that the interest rates are low, but you have to pay both the principal and the interest. And this will have an impact on future government budgets.
I also assume that the Obama folks are smart. The Romer analysis, is in some sense explicit in saying that it is only looking at short term effects. But it is still valid to ask questions about long term impacts that are not included in such a short term analysis. Very smart people can make mistakes in policies that they have formulated in the time span of only a month.
I really don't care if Mankiw is a lapdog or not. I do care if Nate is correct in framing a political issue. Being a fan, I want him to be correct 100% of the time, so I will call it out when I think he makes a misstep, so he can be right on the money next time.
@morzer-
Whatever.
No worries. We're all concerned as well.
fred,
well what ever you're calling me, maybe it's time you quit calling anybody anything, and you just paid attention to the argument being made. name calling within your own party is political suicide. If you alienate people like me, who will actually vote for your candidates, where the hell will you for support? The GOP? You could resurrect Reagan's corpse and run it as a Democrat, and they won't vote for it. You have one place to turn when the chips are down and you need campaign donations, volunteers, and votes. That would be us. So worry less about whether you think we're believers, neo-cons, or whatever, and just deal with the argument being made.
Democrats usually appeal to me because they welcome multiple perspectives-if you're shutting mine out, then you're as narrow minded as the GOP. And fuck you if you think we're voting for that shit.
Now, I don't have a plan to get us out of the mess we're in. Frankly, I'm not sure there is a way out. I hope there is, and I'm willing to give this Keynesian model a try, since it may or may not have worked in WW2 (nobody knows), and the Austrian school got us into this mess to begin with. But I feel queasy about it, I don't like it, I think we're wagering something that should never be used as a marker for a bet.
Listen, I'm not a gambling sort of guy. I like chess better than poker, because there is zero element of chance involved - either you win because you did it right, or you lose because you fucked up.
Even if I was a gambling man, I would never ever think of betting my child's future. That's the most precious thing you have, man. In the end, it's all you have. After you're dead, all the work you did in this life means nothing. The money you made or the experiences you had, it,s all gone. All that you have is your kids. That's it, ain't nobody else gonna carry on any kinda family legacy or preserve your memory. So you don't fuck with your kids, you get that? You don't screw their lives up for some short term joyride, just because you're hard up for cash.
There are limits on what we should be willing to bet. I'm not a fan of chance, and when I do have to take a chance, I make damn sure I never exceed the limits of human decency just to place a bet on an uncertain outcome.
It is so freaking nice to be having fact-driven policy discussions again. A year ago, if the question had been "which will do more for the economy, a targeted tax cut or more government investment?" the response would have been "Terrorists hate us for our freedom. I believe in freedom. Freedom is a principle..."
Also: Mule Rider death list? Like the Obama death list? Nate better not become a comptroller...
"well what ever you're calling me, maybe it's time you quit calling anybody anything, and you just paid attention to the argument being made. name calling within your own party is political suicide. If you alienate people like me, who will actually vote for your candidates, where the hell will you for support? The GOP?"
Ohhh, I am so worried. I call you a true believer, which you prove again (go look it pup) and you call me names, than complain about me calling you names which I didn't. Amazing.
As for your argument, which I addressed and you missed and simply repeated the same crap - is that we must do something. Neither of us think we would be here if the guys we voted for in 2000 or 2004 had one. They didn't and that sucks. We are in a very bad spot now, the only question to me do we do something or do we do nothing. Since I think limiting employment losses are the real key, I think we spend as that will cost alot less in the long term. If you want to gamble doing nothing is correct, feel free to argue that but quit talking about your kids. I think what Obama is doing is best for your kids, why don't you?
@morzer
Is this tone with Ricky Bobby necessary? This is just what MR does, start with sarcasm and then works his way down.
RVB posted thusly:
"Ultimately the the stimulus will be paid for by issuing government debt. Because this extra debt needs to be serviced, there will either an increase in taxes or a decrease in government expenditures over the long term to repay the debt. This long term cost is not included in Romer's recent analysis."
And you are ignoring the fact that any tax cuts will ALSO create an increase in the deficit, which will have to be financed with borrowing that has to be financed. What does that do to the rest of your argument?
Man, what is this bullshit about MR?
Is this: "538, Mule Rider Done Right?" Do you think we all come here to talk about some idiot forum troll? Fuck him, the topic is politics.
Forum trolls feed on attention. He only posts this shit to piss you off. Ignore his ass, he'll get bored and go away. We've cold-shouldered him to death on this board before, and it worked, until some idiot fed his troll ass by actually responding to anything he wrote.
Just ignore him. And Talledega Nights man over there, too.
Now, can we talk about the economy? Unless you think maybe MR has some sort of cosmic significance that could be more important than fixing the mess we're in.
Dear Michael:
When I mentioned "stimulus" I was referring to both the spending and tax cut portions of the Obama stimulus package.
My argument applies to both the tax cut and the government spending part of the stimulus package. The long term cost to employment of servicing the debt for both spending and tax cuts will decrease the long term employment benefits compared to what Romer claims.
Both tax cuts and spending should have a quick cost/benefit evaluation so that they are net positive over the long term. Education, energy, health, and much infrastructure is very much that way. Don't get me wrong, I support the stimulus, I just think that the net positive impact is probably inflated by a factor of two because the long-term debt service cost is not factored in.
@Statler
Dude, your posts get way too snarky after that 3rd glass of wine.
In the commentary on the previous article about Mankiw's essay, somebody pointed out that since it was just located on the business page of the NYT it wasn' as weighty as it would be if it were on the Op Ed page -- mainly, the argument seemed to be, because it wouldn't be read by very many people.
Now despite the asymmetry and general strangeness of a BA-Econ guy debating by proxy a PhD-Econ guy (however smart they both may be) about an unpublished, not-yet-peer-reviewed paper written by a person who is replacing the Phd-Econ guy at his old job, Mankiw is tacitly joining a legion of conservative economists and "opinion makers" who are trying to reframe economic history in order to argue the danger or at least the likely inefficacy of a large-scale government spending program (primarily in public works) and greater regulatory controls designed to avoid a prolonged or more profound recession.
His effort in reframing involves calling up the ghost of Paul Samuelson, much like during the 1960's conservatives blamed the permissive parenting advice of Benjamin Spock's "Baby and Child Care" to explain the political protest behavior of that generation (my generation, incidentally -- though when I raised my own children we had our own child-raising gurus, and another generation of research to go on).
Samuelson is dead. The economic world has changed dramatically from what it was 20 or 50 or 70 years ago. The country is in a pickle. The outgoing president screwed up the management of the economy, guided by a philosophy of laissez faire that had a far too benign view of the nature of man and the functioning of free markets. And we've been stolen blind by the captains of the financial industry.
Mankiw and his ilk are trying to create a fantasy economic history and a fantasy economic world that will block meaningful regulatory reform, government spending initiatives, and tax reforms that might rescue us from the brink of a depression.
And location of Mankiw's article on the business page is preaching to a certain "class" of readers rather than to the more general or inclusive audience that routinely reads the Op Ed page. As Nate points out, Mankiw read the Romer paper selectively, and misrepresented it in the process, even if he had some legitimate criticisms of the research design.
In this way, Mankiw joined the clique of historical obfuscators (the ones who are trying to convince us that FDR prolonged the Great Depression), instead of being a professional economic scientist.
Mankiw drew on his well-earned reputation as an economist to misreprsent the unpublished paper, in a situation in which he had, as Nate implies, a conflict of interest -- trying to rewrite the Bush administration's own record of corruption and economic malfeasance. In such a situation, he had an obligation to be balanced and fair; but instead he just acted as a propagandist for a failed ideology and policy.
RVB-
I think we agree on all points, but a ten year T-bill is about 2% right now. If you really want to see an implosion, lets try to get the point where the average bond trader is betting on DEFLATION! We are close to a real bad spot, even worse, and to not spend now could create deflation. Some folks are betting on deflation - like the editor of US News (who was also dumb enough to invest with Madoff, so lets not be too worried...).
I said this last night, and have had yet to see it analyzed well - if we give business tax cuts and they save jobs (thus both the consumer and business multiplier together), isn't that the best use of funds?
Fred-
I don't know if he is or isn't. I don't think that you know that either. He's the President, not Jesus.
He can make mistakes you know. Bush fucked up by surrounding himself with yes Men, people that just said, "Of course you're right, MR Bush, anyone that disagrees with you just hates America" And any other President that surrounds themselves with dittoheads will fuck up just as bad as Bush did. Which is why Obama, if he really does take this seriously, is going to listen to people that disagree with him instead of somebody that will kiss his ass relentlessly.
Now, if that doesn't get through to you, I'll declare you a troll as well and ignore you just like MR. I didn't come here to argue with some sycophant. Nate asked a question: "Is there a legitimate argument against the stimulus?"
I had to sit here and think for a while to come up with an answer to that, and eventually, I thought of thsi. And it is probably the most legitimate one I can think of. So I responded to his question to the best of my ability.
Where you came from, I don't know. Maybe you thought somehow that we needed a brownnoser to step in and hurl insults at anybody that dares to disagree with Our Brave Leader. Personally, I think we need less Yes Men and more people that are willing to consider the possibility that we could be wrong.
Juris,
That post is genius.
Statler-
Huh?
The individual who calls himself Mule Rider (an there's been only one for awhile now) is just about the only commenter Nate has personally acknowledged and, as far as I know, the only one whose comments have been irregularly removed.
Right now I'm reminded of the night not all that long ago when a name (not Ricky Bobby) linked to a local news item about a highway fatality in TN. Said name suggested that the dead individual was the commenter known as Mule Rider.
IIRC, Mule Rider in "analyst without a party" mode, was back a few days later.
That's entertainment.
But it is still valid to ask questions about long term impacts that are not included in such a short term analysis.
And vice versa. The campaign promise that turned into the Bush tax cuts was predicated on a CBO forecast of a 5 trillion plus budget surplus over the next ten years less than ten years ago.
Davy
3rd glass of wine my ass. 3rd box of Franzia more like it. :)
You know, there have been moments when I thought MR was Nate's alter ego. I dunno, and I don't really care. I just ignore his ass.
As to the general comment above about BS-econ majors from U of Chicago-
I was at U of Chicago when the BS students were telling the Nobel prize winners how wrong they were about Russia. Essentially, the U of Chicago recommended the insane crazy economic program for Russia which included letting everything go private as fast as possible. What has that led to? PUTIN!
I guess the young whip smart BS students might know more than the old sticks in the mud sometimes...
Being a 1st year undergrad at Harvard who took Greg Mankiw's Introduction to the Principles of Microeconomics course this semester, it is pretty interesting and entertaining nonetheless to see my professor featured on this website.... Needless to say, I didn't enjoy his class very much this past semester and definitely won't be taking his macroeconomics course in the Spring.
Evan-
Learn to think for yourself, the old dudes at the staid institutions are far too often there to forward their own careers, over learning and thought.
Evan-
Also keep in mind that the guys stuck teaching the freshman are the guys who don't have funding and must teach the undergrads to get paid...
So much for that big tuition...
;)
RVB, I see where you're coming from now, and we are in agreement.
For the record, I have seen myself as a liberal deficit hawk, and only recently has Krugman convinced me to suspend my deficit hawkishness in extremis. But I share a lot of Statler N Waldorf's trepidation about the further ballooning of the already grossly excessive national debt, and I know that Obama is right when he says that down the line, taxes will have to be increased, because God help us when foreigners decide to stop buying U.S. treasuries. I read recently, I believe in the New York Times, that lately, Chinese investors have been redirecting their money from the U.S. back to China, so the process may have already begun. All that said, I would rather see Congress do deficit spending on investments that will pay dividends down the road, such as education, basic r&d and r&d in fields like biotechnology and alternative energy, applied investment in alternative energy and public transit, etc. I'd like limited tax cuts - for example, to the terribly regressive payroll taxes - directed mostly at poor people who will spend all the money because they have no choice.
You know, there have been moments when I thought MR was Nate's alter ego.
I don't think so Statler. Then again, they are at a complete 180 from one another.
A clever and savvy liberal genius who is an expert on politics and economics and a saturated dimwit, conservative charlatan who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
Somehow MR does seem to get an awful lot of play in this blog, though, and the ubiquity of his name and references to him can be overwhelming at times.
Evan, was he a fair grader (did he penalize people for disagreeing with him)? And how do you pronounce "Mankiw"?
If MR is who he used to be before the election, he was a young unmarried prick from Oklahoma who is a homophobe and watches way too much Fox News. Is that still him? Who cares...
@fred-
I don't know if it's the same one, but the hateful smears are pretty consistent.
Same person or not, the name "Mule Rider" has almost achieved internet legend status.
Actually, before the election he had nights of sanity and that is why I am not sure this is the "real" MR.
Yes, the thing with Mulie is that people respond to him more than almost any troll I have seen. Why? I do not know...
I guess it is kinda like people rabidly believing people from Harvard.....
Ricky Bobby—
Same person or not, the name "Mule Rider" has almost achieved internet legend status.
Serious question. Why isn't he a blogger?
loner-
"a" Mule rider did start a blog, but we didn't think it was the "real" mule rider at the time.
Where are all the pre-election posters?
Statler, a few posts ago you had a hissy fit about references to MR. Yet in just about every one of your posts you mention him. Most of us sober people (those not working on their 3rd box of wine) have a genuine concern for why this terrorist continues to infect this thread. His rants are alarming. I think we deserve to know how this guy continues to be able to post here and was just asking.
Fred-
There are two basic problems/barriers for business tax cuts to save jobs.
The first is free-riders. Many businesses will be doing fine and yet may claim to need an extra tax cut or it will be forced to lay people off. Obama already has a policy of tax incentives for new job creation, which also has a bit of a free-rider problem. How do you know the business wasn't hiring anyway?
The other one is perverse incentives that can encourage unstable employment. Imagine any test or criteria for creating jobs... new hires, potential layoffs, etc. An incentive will relatively punish the stable businesses that protect and maintain a stable work force and reward businesses that are more volatile, who fire a lot of people during a recession, and then hire them back during the recovery.
You might be able to design the program to get around these problems, but it would get complicated.
It is best to throw lots of money at projects that seem to have the biggest benefit/cost characteristics. Which is what Obama is trying to do.
As for deflation, I am sure that the Fed will figure out enough ways to print money so as to avoid deflation. The cost will come on the far side of the recovery when they have to jack up rates fast to tamp down inflation as the economy is trying to grow. To avoid this Obama's team is trying to make sure that the government spending that comes out of the stimulus increases productivity so that the recovery can have rapid economic growth while at the same time avoiding inflation. That's why they are focusing on energy, education, infrastructure and health.
Everyone concerned needs to be formulating highly productive
public and private investment projects so that Obama has more good things to be throwing public money at. The availability of good projects and the ability to implement them quickly is the real constraint on the size of the stimulus package.
66gardeners-
Blame google, their blocking sucks. It must be intentional as Nate could go to several third party providers and block every Mulie out there - haloscan for example.
RVB-
I agree completely with you last post, but to me your last post seems to disagree with your first post.
66, Fred
Grab a couple glasses off the shelf. There's plenty more Franzia where that came from!
(hic)
Fred: I don't know much about blocking but I figure it can't be that hard to do. Obviously Nate has tried. Somehow MR got through recently though.
I don't post a lot here because I wouldn't begin to be able to logically explain what needs to be done to save the economy. I have read all of Nate's posts for months now and most of the comments, so I know most of the regulars here and am impressed by most of your thoughts.
Thanks to Nate and all those who help educate us here. I just don't like it when someone criticizes others and turns around and does the exact same thing.
Nate,
With analyses like these, you'll never get a job at Wonkette.
Dear Fred and Michael:
Let me clarify what I am trying to say. Obama, Nate, and Romer are correct in their general approach on the stimulus.
But Mankiw is also correct that Romer is off on her numbers when you look at the longer term impact, and that the right approach is to have some sort of quick benefit/cost analysis. My guess is that the long term impact of the stimulus will be closer to 2 million net jobs rather than 3.7 million when you factor in longer term costs partially referred to by Mankiww. That is still worth $800 billion in deficit spending on infrastructure, education, health care, energy, etc.
Mankiw is incorrect in having a near-religious faith in tax cuts, though I understand where it comes from, and it is a position that can be maintained while being intellectually honest (which is where I think Nate is wrong on elements of his intellectual dishonesty argument). BOTH tax cuts and spending should be subject to a quick cost/benefit analysis.
I think that the right approach for the Obama economic team is to say: Yes, deficits are a problem, and future tax increases are a problem, and that is why we are going to structure a stimulus package to be able to produce a net benefit to the tax payer over the long term...assuming a mildly pessimistic cost of government debt, where is how we come out positive in the long term.
This is a huge contrast to Bush who effectively blew up $1 trillion in the desert, and then borrowed $1 trillion to make rich people richer (which we are paying for now).
If Nate, Romer and Obama actually get their numbers right, then I am hoping that the economy will be roaring so fast in 2012, that Obama's re-election will be a historically unprecedented landslide.
Why should we bow down to the PhD economists? Some of us only have BS in economics.
Neo-conservative economic policy was full of crap in the late 80s and earlier 90s. Polishing it up after eight years of application under George W. Bush seems like appropriate pennance for PhDs that believe their own models.
Jimmy and Ricky Bobby = Mule Rider
How do I know this?
Because no one else on this site gives a rat's ass about one unhinged 17-year-old.
Carry on, nothing to see here.
Great discussion.
Although the output effects on Government spending cuts appears to be more beneficial than tax cuts, tax cuts for middle to low income families provides another metric, one which cannot be measured even by the greatest economists.
One which needs to be addressed when families begin struggling because health costs have skyrocketed, heating and fuel costs rise, and pay remains stagnant, not keeping up with inflation.
The metric of a family able to buy that extra can of food, keep the heat on just a bit longer or not have to choose between medication or dinner. A metric of what it means to be able to fit your child with a decent pair of shoes and clothes that aren't horribly ill fitted when he goes to school. A metric which can be made maybe just that much better by modest tax relief.
The human metric.
@Statler
Hey, don't leave me out of this party!
Joe -
BS in economics? Oh, believe me, I can BS you about economics all fuckin' night! I got more BS than you can handle when it comes to economics.
Davy,
Here's a glass. Tonight, the Allies will invade Franzia!
I wanted post one more comment that addresses the issue of doing tax cuts with a high economic stimulus multiplier.
Like liberal_defender mentions, tax cuts that target middle-to-low income families will tend to have a higher multiplier, especially when those families are under economic stress.
But then it is also beneficial to have tax cuts that target investments that are needed: such as energy efficiency investments, home repairs, education and training, purchases of cars with a high MPG rating, etc. You want to structure the tax cuts to provide incentives for behaviors and decisions that make the economy run more efficiently.
Both tax cuts and government spending should be targeted at activities that increase the productivity of the economy.
The biggest impact on the long term stimulative impact of both tax cuts and spending is the type of activity that is either funded by the spending or incentivized by the tax cut. Is the spending or incentive increasing economic productivity? This in fact makes a much bigger difference than the economy-wide, average, academically calculated difference between a multiplier of about 1.5 for spending compared to a 1.0 multiplier for tax cuts.
Kill! Kill! Kill! Die! Die! Die!
Kill! Kill! Kill! Die! Die! Die!
Kill! Kill! Kill! Die! Die! Die!
Kill! Kill! Kill! Die! Die! Die!
Statler N Waldorf must die! I will cut out his organs and feed them to his parents. I will cut off his penis and feed it to his butt-fucking queer pals. I will grind the rest of that weasly faggot up and use him for fishing bait.
Death to Statler! A slow, miserable one for the worthless cum-guzzling maggot!
I encourage hate crimes and ideological bigotry against all faggots like Statler! May he die at my hands or live a miserable life persecuted and humiliated for his butt-fucking ways!!
Statler N Waldorf must die! I will cut out his organs and feed them to his parents. I will cut off his penis and feed it to his butt-fucking queer pals. I will grind the rest of that weasly faggot up and use him for fishing bait.
Death to Statler! A slow, miserable one for the worthless cum-guzzling maggot!
I encourage hate crimes and ideological bigotry against all faggots like Statler! May he die at my hands or live a miserable life persecuted and humiliated for his butt-fucking ways!!
Statler N Waldorf must die! I will cut out his organs and feed them to his parents. I will cut off his penis and feed it to his butt-fucking queer pals. I will grind the rest of that weasly faggot up and use him for fishing bait.
Death to Statler! A slow, miserable one for the worthless cum-guzzling maggot!
I encourage hate crimes and ideological bigotry against all faggots like Statler! May he die at my hands or live a miserable life persecuted and humiliated for his butt-fucking ways!!
Statler N Waldorf must die! I will cut out his organs and feed them to his parents. I will cut off his penis and feed it to his butt-fucking queer pals. I will grind the rest of that weasly faggot up and use him for fishing bait.
Death to Statler! A slow, miserable one for the worthless cum-guzzling maggot!
I encourage hate crimes and ideological bigotry against all faggots like Statler! May he die at my hands or live a miserable life persecuted and humiliated for his butt-fucking ways!!
Statler N Waldorf must die! I will cut out his organs and feed them to his parents. I will cut off his penis and feed it to his butt-fucking queer pals. I will grind the rest of that weasly faggot up and use him for fishing bait.
Death to Statler! A slow, miserable one for the worthless cum-guzzling maggot!
I encourage hate crimes and ideological bigotry against all faggots like Statler! May he die at my hands or live a miserable life persecuted and humiliated for his butt-fucking ways!!
Statler N Waldorf must die! I will cut out his organs and feed them to his parents. I will cut off his penis and feed it to his butt-fucking queer pals. I will grind the rest of that weasly faggot up and use him for fishing bait.
Death to Statler! A slow, miserable one for the worthless cum-guzzling maggot!
I encourage hate crimes and ideological bigotry against all faggots like Statler! May he die at my hands or live a miserable life persecuted and humiliated for his butt-fucking ways!!
oh mule. we don't have to hide our secret homo love any longer!
Fuck, I'm so drunk I'm seeing double posts.... fuck.....
Statler,
I'm coming to get you, you fucking homo!
I'm gonna beat your brains out. You are a dicksucking faggot!
A dicksucking faggot, I say!!
Cum-guzzling queef!!!!
Also, the debate about tax cuts (how much they could/should be, who they go to, what is a fair policy) is something that Obama should be making an effort to refocus.
For my entire life, I have heard REPUBLICANS talk about tax cuts and balanced budgets, but only President Clinton was able to execute that agenda.
I have watched conservatives repeatedly try to take down the protections and benefits granted under FDR. First, they tried to say people did not WANT government to protect them. When that failed, the strategy was to "lower taxes" until the government could not longer offer the same level of services, "forcing" people to make "difficult" choices.
Anytime someone tries to tell you there is an economic certainty, you can be sure that the economy will escape their grasp and do something else. This is as true for "liberal" economists as it is for "conservative".
I bet Nate is your homo lover. He is a faggot. Hasn't he admitted it? I know you have. I bet you fuck him in the ass constantly.
Nothing like getting a bunch of Nate's fudge smeared all over your tiny queer penis, is it?
Is it?!!!
I bet he returns the favor and fucks you in the ass recklessly! Nate and Statler, two butt-fucking homos.
I bet it's an amazing mix of feces, blood and semen you two fruitcakes smear all over each other.
Fucking faggots! Go choke on a load of cum, you fucker, and just die!!!
I bet Nate is your homo lover. He is a faggot. Hasn't he admitted it? I know you have. I bet you fuck him in the ass constantly.
Nothing like getting a bunch of Nate's fudge smeared all over your tiny queer penis, is it?
Is it?!!!
I bet he returns the favor and fucks you in the ass recklessly! Nate and Statler, two butt-fucking homos.
I bet it's an amazing mix of feces, blood and semen you two fruitcakes smear all over each other.
Fucking faggots! Go choke on a load of cum, you fucker, and just die!!!
C'mon, Mule; there are no lulz here. You've tapped this keg dry.
Unless you really have nothing better to do, I recommend you find a place where your trolling might be appreciated, like /b/ or usenet.
I bet Nate is your homo lover. He is a faggot. Hasn't he admitted it? I know you have. I bet you fuck him in the ass constantly.
Nothing like getting a bunch of Nate's fudge smeared all over your tiny queer penis, is it?
Is it?!!!
I bet he returns the favor and fucks you in the ass recklessly! Nate and Statler, two butt-fucking homos.
I bet it's an amazing mix of feces, blood and semen you two fruitcakes smear all over each other.
Fucking faggots! Go choke on a load of cum, you fucker, and just die!!!
I bet Nate is your homo lover. He is a faggot. Hasn't he admitted it? I know you have. I bet you fuck him in the ass constantly.
Nothing like getting a bunch of Nate's fudge smeared all over your tiny queer penis, is it?
Is it?!!!
I bet he returns the favor and fucks you in the ass recklessly! Nate and Statler, two butt-fucking homos.
I bet it's an amazing mix of feces, blood and semen you two fruitcakes smear all over each other.
Fucking faggots! Go choke on a load of cum, you fucker, and just die!!!
I bet Nate is your homo lover. He is a faggot. Hasn't he admitted it? I know you have. I bet you fuck him in the ass constantly.
Nothing like getting a bunch of Nate's fudge smeared all over your tiny queer penis, is it?
Is it?!!!
I bet he returns the favor and fucks you in the ass recklessly! Nate and Statler, two butt-fucking homos.
I bet it's an amazing mix of feces, blood and semen you two fruitcakes smear all over each other.
Fucking faggots! Go choke on a load of cum, you fucker, and just die!!!
Well there goes that thread. See you guys later.
Mule Rider—
Why aren't you a blogger?
Shit, this wine really fucks with your vision.... I swear, it looks like the same post over and over again.... fuck.....
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As always, DNFTT
DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS
We now return to our regularly scheduled programming on "As The FiveThirtyEight Turns."
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The political-economic philosophy that looks particularly naked at this juncture and without a clue is Libertarianism. And I say that as someone who leans Libertarian.
I regard flexibility in one's economic approaches as a virtue. It's not herding that's causing so many to lean in the Keynesian direction. It's because the moment calls for it.
And since we are indeed going to spend a trillion, we might as well spend it wisely.
Gregor
we live life as we can not as we wish...sad but true.
i hope the disaster we call the economy doesnt get as lost in the Congress as it did in this post.
good night.
Mankiw has a vested interest in rewriting history and distorting the economic study of others. He was there when things went very bad, and they went very bad RIGHT UNDER HIS NOSE.
Yet another Bush neo-con without a shred of honesty, humility or dignity. Cut taxes. Cut. Cut. Cut. Give business a break.
That's been the mantra of the Rethuglican Party since before Teddy Roosevelt. They don't give a shit about anything except their business patrons. Minkiw is just as bad as the rest, who will soon be whoring it up with the big money types. Sadly, he can't be charged for a war crime like Cheney, but he's a corrupt neo-con fool who got us into this mess.
GREAT JOB BROWNIE!
RVB:
I read your post and I'm forced to wonder if you and the rest of the economists just stop and use common sense for a minute. You give people a tax cut- they're going to save some of it, and spend some of it. The part they spend, in this day and age, will likely be on foreign made goods- Flat screen TV's from China and the like. When you build a road- you still give people money- and they will still save some, and still spend some on foreign products, but first- you get a road. Our infrastructure is crumbling- if the news media is to be believed- why not kill two birds with one stone? Fix our crumbling infrastructure _and_ put money into the economy.
You argue having money saved up for the recovery is important- but that happens in either case. The difference is by spending money on infrastructure we end with an infrastructure capable of promoting a recovery.
To oversimplify- government spending on infrastructure is capital investment that also puts money into the economy. Tax cuts put money into the economy but without the capital improvements. Instead much of it gets spent on short term satisfaction without long term gains (What difference does a flat screen TV make to our future productivity).
More importantly- Mankiw is a Bush advisor- the same administration that either ran our country into the ground- or failed to change the policies of Clinton and thus let our country run itself into the ground- and we're supposed to listen to him? Really?
Nate's a smart guy and can easily http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080804143116AA7WH7s which can then be fed into something like http://whatismyipaddress.com/ which in turn tells you plenty about where a poster is and how he's connecting.
Fella would have to go through a lot of proxies to beat that.
It's been enjoyable reading both Fred and RVB's takes, and I have a lot of respect for both Nate and Mankiw. However, while I know it isn't quite as easy to read, I'd like to see a slightly more in-depth analysis from each of them... economic multipliers aren't concrete things. Right now it seems like they're arguing terminology, not economics.
So Mankiw says endogenous vs exogenous is just a method of gathering more reliable data, whereas Nate finds them very different... (among many other arguments), but these are two very smart people, and I'd like to see their analyses, not just their critiques.
Mankiw is one of the idiots who drove us into this mess. Why would anyone believe anything he says?
I'm no economist - in fact, these sorts of arguements make my head hurt.
"Tax cuts and more of 'em" appear to be the _only_ conservative solution to _every_ economic problem ... and that's enough for me to distrust the arguement when it's presented once again.
I am afraid I might further confuse people, so I am going to make this fairly vague and discuss terms loosely, but hopefully in a productive way...
First off one of the biggest things that makes economics such a powerful social science is not just theory, but its ability to find ways to test it in a very complex social world.
The discussions in this forum and from Mankiw and Nate are not only about terminology, but more about research design. This is something that has direct implications on how you research, how you -interpret- results, and even more so how you apply those results to policy.
exogenous and endogenous are not methods of gathering data, but more so terms used to explain the circumstances of how one variable relates to another another.
In a perfect world we would want to collect data variables that are completely exogenous for us to test relationships. However, this is not always possible. The data during a recessionary period, particularly used analyze the effects of government spending and taxation is likely to be endogenous to its effects on various economic indicators (unemployment rates, GDP, etc..). There are so many variables we are unaware of and/or can't measure, because of this we can not control for them adequately.
Mankiw is correct in his blog. He seems to be writing to his students as the audience. This is why he stresses the study during a period where the situation is more likely to be exogenous instead of endogenous.
However, the flaw in Mankiw's opinions is it is an unsafe assumption that the findings during a non-recessionary period will be the same as during recessionary period, especially when analyzing the size of an effect of something (like the multipliers of spending and taxation on GDP). My guess is Romer has different findings ($3 vs. $0.99, because they are making unpublished assumptions or are attempting to control endogenous data for the Obama administration.
With that said... my response to Mark Richards is...
I am all for gov't spending on infrastructure. It should be the main thing, but we shouldn't put all our eggs into one basket either. There are unknown and untested variables, so it is important to try multiple things.
One problem with only spending money on government infrastructure is it floods money to only some industries. Other industries do not feel the effect directly until workers from a infrastructure producing industry spend their money elsewhere. This does happen and it is what we want, but to get there tons of money were spent on raw materials and not just on labor. The other problem is if we spend too much money on infrastructure we might increase our prices on raw materials by increasing demand for those materials (or the ability to mine, process, and transport those materials).
Tax cuts, especially an extremely progressive one that gives every individual/family the same amount puts money directly in the hands of consumers who are most likely to spend it. It can also temporarily delay foreclosures. Yes, some of it is saved, but much of it will be spent within a short time (a quarter or two). Even people who put it straight into a savings account will likely have their purchasing decisions slightly affected, since they feel more financially secure from seeing more money in their savings account.
Both ways have advantages and disadvantages, but there are also unknown variables and problems with endogenous variables to completely examine what will work best.
Bottom line, the important thing is to get otherwise idle people to do productive things, or employed people to become more productive. That is the only way to increase the wealth to be distributed by whatever means.
If the government spends money on projects that the private sector cannot or will not fund, there is an immediate primary increase in productivity as people stop sitting around and begin producing. If the government cuts taxes, there is no immediate primary increase in productivity.
Secondary increases in productivity are are due to people with money hiring other people to make stuff, buying products which spurs other people to make stuff, etc.
The only way tax cuts would be better is if the secondary increases due to them are somehow higher than the combined primary and secondary increases generated by direct government spending.
If the government wastes the money on frivolous activities while the tax payers getting relief invest heavily in activities that spur productivity, the tax cutters would have an argument, but if the government addresses clearly unmet needs such as infrastructure it is hard to imagine the private sector making dramatically better use of the funds and easy to imagine it playing monetary games with minimal net effect on productivity.
I would rather bet on the sure thing than hope that tax savings would "trickle down" to fund productive work.
What this thread suggests to me, a confirmed non-economist, is that there are lots of economists out there who argue about economic theory from an academic standpoint, using whatever examples they can find from history that back up their side of the argument and ignoring the bits that contradict them - bit like academics of any persuasion. Plus they will never actually know whether eg if FDR hadn't brought in the New Deal things would have been better or worse.
They can analyse the past, but they can only make partially educated guesses about the future. There are too many variables to make accurate predictions.
Various different types of tax cuts have had various different results in the past so may have similar results in the future. Various different types of government spending have had various different results in the past so may have similar results in the future. Characters like Madoff have always been around, as have bubbles of various kinds, but did we have hedge funds and leverage like we do now? Don't think so.
The current context is not the same as it has been in the past, so the outcomes are bound to be different. Factor in the current world situation - international politics, climate change, level of industrialisation, lessons learned from the history of the 20th century, world population levels, technology, computing power, public expectations etc etc - and who knows what is going to happen?
We just all have to hold hands and do the best we can to get through this. A few tax cuts for those at the bottom and where history suggests they might do some good, and some extra government spending to keep some jobs and build something for the future can't hurt.
But let's hope that while a lot of people are rushing about trying to "save the economy", there are at least a few people who are thinking about the long term future - what sort of economy do we really want or need? (not necessarily the same thing) and how can we best try to prevent disaster coming upon us all again in the future?
Wow, long post, and because of the time difference, I imagine one that will be ignored because a new thread will start! But at least I got it off my chest!
Nate
I very much respect your psephological analysis, but it is you that is misrepresenting the Romer work, not Mankiw.
Exogenous episodes are studies NOT because they have no relevance for counter-cyclical policy, but because they are the only way to obtain clean-identification. The same approach is taken with identifying the impact of monetary policy, but it would be ludicrous to suggest that it implies that the literature examining exogenous monetary policy is irrelevant to understanding the counter-cyclical policies of the Fed!!!
In addition, the paper makes it clear that the reason why counter-cyclical policies appear to have been unsuccessful in the past is NOT because their results are applicable only to exogenous episodes, but because, and I quote "countercyclical actions are rarely taken before output growth has already returned to normal".
Indeed, that last comment explains why economist are often sceptical of counter-cyclical fiscal policy (whether tax or expenditure based) - it is very difficult to get the timely right.
Of course, if a large fiscal package is passed early this year, it is unlikely the economy will have returned to normal - so that means that countercyclical tax measures could be quite useful.
As for why it appears that Romer has ignored these results in making her recommendations - I would argue that it is for political reasons. The recent analysis is the Obama transition team's OFFICIAl response. It is well known that Obama favours an increase in government expenditure to offset the downturn - so how likely was it that Romer would have been allowed to publish something that suggested that tax reduction would be more successful? Having worked for politicians in the past - I would say that the probability was near-zero. It is a poltical as well as an economic document and so relied on the more conventional multipliers.
Personally, I have no horse in this race. There is going to be a lot of uncertainty whichever way the new administration jumps. There are few examples of large succesfful stimulus packages involving either greater spending or large tax cuts. The current economic state of affairs is unlike anything seen since the depression - and even there there are more differences than similarities.
I think a lot of economists (whom are neither liberal or conservative) are sceptical of large fiscal packages because, even if in principle it were possible to upscale government spending in an efficient manner, the chances of it being done so are small - if a policy would not pass a cost-benefit analysis - that means it should not be implemented, regarldless of whether it temporarily boosts activity.
Truth is, we are all in the dark at the moment, but selective attacks on well credentialed economists aren't likely to win you much credibility when you venture outside of political analysis.
Aaron Bernett of CNBC was touting that WSJ article today on Morning JOE GRRR. Everyone that reads this should send them an email and tell them to fact check.
Also, OH R Senator to retire next year... SIt was running across the bottom line on Morning Joe
Nate,
You aren't going to get a serious debate here. You are a lefty most of your audiences are lefties. Like most blogs its preaching to the chior syndrome. Additionally since you have comment moderation I don't even know why I am bothering to post.
Its a fundamental agree to disagree as far as I am concerned. Arguing is just a waste of time when you are outnumbered at least 75%+ liberals.
Here are some thoughts to consider though
Who is better at job creation (government or small business)
Who knows which jobs are actually needed (government or small business)
For all of these government jobs they are direct payouts by the government. What happens in four years when all the infrastructure is repaired? You have massive layoffs and you are at square one again with no jobs. Alternatively, if the jobs remain you have another sunk cost and higher deficits.
@Labor Outsider: I agree that the terminology of exogenous/endogenous basically concerns model identification.
At the same time, I think Nate is correct to call attention to Mankiw's selective presentation of effects of tax reduction, in which he is not being merely an economic scientist but rather presenting selective and out-of-context figures to bolster a political argument.
Further, as I noted in my extended comment earlier on this thread (before all hell broke loose), I think Mankiw does/did have at least an intellectual conflict of interest in this, trying to rationalize the Bush tax cuts and support the right-wing mantra of tax reduction as the most valuable approach to stimulating the economy.
Had he stuck to the critique of the model and not tried to implant the 3 to 1 payoff idea, he'd be on reasonable grounds. But he didn't do that. So he deserves his lumps.
Mrs. B,
Not everyone ignored it. From everything written here, its clear that the economic academy is (all its claims to be a "real" science to the contrary) just as screwed up as the rest of humanities/law/other mushy fields. In the legal academic community, for example (where my articles are generally published), there is no real peer review control because at most you can say I don't like your conclusion or point out the counterexamples (which invariably exist) that weren't considered or in your mind adequately debated. Some folks try to do "empirical" work, but when you drill down a lot of times its just selective statistical play to justify the initial hypothesis. That's one big reason why most lawyers don't waste their time with academic writings unless they conveniently support the particular argument that's being made. In other words, almost everything done is purely academic, with the practical side existing in an alternative dimension. All of which makes publishing for tenure a slightly ludicrous exercise - but I digress.
Economists may have a little more claim to be "scientific" because they can argue about the methodology on common grounds, but since most conclusions are predictive and not completely teastable you get to the same place of it all being a function of how you shape the argument around the numbers.
That's what I see happening here. Mankiw can sit and defend his claim by hedging that the use of exogenous tax cuts is simply a better bench market (more akin to a vacuum), but that wasn't in the original WSJ article. He could also have been a little more honest and noted the very preliminary and contra-indicated nature of the Romers' work, as he'd almost certainly do in an academic publication (through creative footnoting/endnoting, no doubt). The reality is, though, that the WSJ isn't publishing this article as an exercise in economic debate, but as more fodder in its own fight to keep supply-side economics alive. As a result, while I'm happy to see economists on all sides defend and debate the value of exogenous v endogenous events, Nate's right that the article was not forthcoming or "honest" in the way one would typically expect an academic to be if they wanted the public to continue to place faith in their intellectual honesty. Especially since the public won't generally assume that someone like Mankiw has one standard for academic writing and another for casual pieces - although he almost certainly does. Then again, most people just hear the phrase
Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman" and assume everything he says is measured and golden, regardless of how far from his area of expertise it really is.
Blame the Journal - not that they care - for using Mankiw's credentials as a blunt weapon in service of their agenda. Or blame Mankiw for writing a piece that he knew would be used as propaganda by the right without any attempt at clarifying the basis for his use of seemingly unrelated data sets. Or even blame Nate for expecting anything different out of a publication with as flagrant a mission bias as the Journal and making a tempest out of a teapot. But ultimately the conclusion I reach is one similar to yours Mrs. B - we can no more rely on any one "expert's" conclusory opinion to predict the impact on the future of current decisions than we'd trust it to pure chance or rune sticks. We have to gather a lot more information, ensure the author of any work is engaged in rigorous analysis, ensure we understand any biases in the author or data, and then do our best to muddle through knowing we will never get it all right and that some huge event we can't predict may mean we get it all wrong. Sucky place to be, but that's pretty much what being a human is, at least in the absence of blind, simplistic belief in a set of "rules" for success.
Mankiw has proved his dishonesty and toolishness before. In September he wrote an absurd defense of the original Paulson bailout plan:
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2008/09/defense-of-paulson-plan.html
It was fisked by me:
http://bluememe.blogspot.com/2008/09/flunking-professor.html
And by others:
http://econ4obama.blogspot.com/2008/09/smart-friend-vs-asymmetric-information.html
The modern definition of conservative: "the facts are being fixed around the policy."
Voinovich Drops Out
Voinovich Drops Out
Mankiw's analogy:
Imagine if a clinical doctor reasoned the same way as Silver did. He would say, "All the evidence on the effects of this drug are from randomized drug tests. In my practice, I never randomize treatment of my patients. Therefore, I can safely ignore the results from the randomized experiments."
is fundamentally flawed. A more fair analogy (and still generous to Mankiw's position) might be "Every clinical trial of this drug has been done on adults, and since you are a child, I don't think it is fair to assume that the drug will act the same way on you as it does on adults."
Somebody said we don't have $400B in shovel ready projects. I don't believe that.
Just standardize on one form of high speed light rail and build it to every city of 50K or larger, the same way we did with the Interstate system in the 50s. While we won't literally be shovelling right away in most places, the additional infrastucture (more steel, more power plants) needs would be immediate. And there are certainly shovel areas right now (I'd love to see Rochester, MN connected to Minneapolis, and the plans are already in place).
Not only would this be a gigantic project, well over $400B, but it would quickly save money for people choosing the light rail for commute or instead of flying.
"Somebody said we don't have $400B in shovel ready projects. I don't believe that."
Why the focus on shovel ready as well - all your doing is meaning that you're hiring extremely heavily in the construction industry short term but not heavily at all in the design/management. You'll then hit constraints due to supply of raw materials etc.
What you actually want is a balanced amount of shovel ready AND a set of non-shovel ready that can be designed and implemented over a few years. A large proportion of the money would still be spent in the next year or two.
wanting purely shovel ready isn't the optimal solution anyway - as you're only putting money/jobs into construction rather than the design side and you'll hit constraints/price rises due to lack of raw materials etc. In addition, just how many projects have really been designed to that standard when there wasn't money available?
Just two more thoughts on this:
1. Mankiw ignores the explicit statement in the Obama position paper:
"We considered multipliers for the case where the federal funds rate remains constant,
rather than the usual case where the Federal Reserve raises the funds rate in response to fiscal
expansion, on the grounds that the funds rate is likely to be at or near its lower bound of zero for
the foreseeable future."
2. It's worth thinking at least twice about the analytical premises of the Romer paper: are deduced legislative intentions actually good determinants of whether tax changes are exogenous or endogenous?
Godd that you came back on this, btw. Mankiw tried to brush you off condescendingly ("a teaching moment"), which is something I think you'll experience further if you continue to engage the professional economics community.
But let's face it: they know a lot, but given the difficulty of economics (think: weather science), like us they're often reduced to metaphor in their arguments. See Mark Thoma's recent, which he quoted you:
"I think the stimulus package is like driving up an icy hill. If you don't have enough momentum from the start and fail to provide enough "stimulus" to get the car over the crest of the hill, you can slide all the way back to the bottom, crashing into things along the way"
OT: Voinovich has announced he is going to retire and will not run for reelection in 2010.
It will be interesting to see how this effects Nate's 2010 Senate election rankings.
OT: Voinovich has announced he will not be running for reelection in 2010.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17324.html
I'm thinking this will move Ohio up on the list of possible turnovers on Nate's list. But on the other hand, the Dems were counting on Voinovich to help them out on cloture votes, and he is no longer under any pressure to do that.
I actually don't know if either of you are intellectually dishonest. I did, however, find the analogy to a randomized controlled trial interesting (I'm a doctor, after all). We don't do RCTs to "solve a statistical identification problem". We do them to allow us to which to to compare the results of the intervention, whether it is a new drug or some other therapeutic procedure. Studies done without randomization are much harder to generalize, because of the inherent bias in using an unrandomized sample.
So, if I studied the use of a new antibiotic, in pregnant women, and it worked, I could not infer that the same antibiotic would work in small children without a new RCT. Similarly, if I studied exogenous policy changes in the real world and they worked, that would tell me very little about other kinds of tax cuts.
We've run into the problem of overgeneralization a lot in medicine. I suspect we have similar problems in economics.
To derail (slighty) since economic theory isn't my strong suit in any sense of the word, but after floundering a bit after the election, these posts are Nate's strongest yet. I love geeky economic fights.
What are these economists? They seem to be a bunch of prima donna press hogs in a beauty contest.
Krugman now offers Obama advice, publicly instead of privately - what a prick:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/12/krugman-reich-take-obama_n_157116.html
Eric, Voinovich not running for reelection also could make him impervious to the pleadings of the Minority Whip, so it's impossible to know whether he'll move to the right or left. I think he's more likely to vote according to his conscience now, or perhaps according to what will help him most in his transition from elective to private-sector work, if that's what he plans on doing.
I think JimCA's comments are important here. If I understand correctly, his comments are similar to Nate's underlying objection to Mankiw's article. The driver in the economy is productivity, which can be thought of as the employment rate times worker productivity. Having 8% or more of the workforce be unproductive is a huge drag on the economy. Tax cuts might carry a large multiplier during good times when capital and cash flow have stronger effects on productivity, but that doesn't mean that the same is true in the current economic environment.
Right now, unemployment and slowing spending are gumming up the economic engine. We want do three things: 1) increase near-term employment, 2) increase near term spending, and 3) build long-term productivity. These are somewhat different goals than we have when the economy isn't in a tailspin.
I'd also point out that it didn't work to give banks money on the grounds that they didn't have money to lend. The reason they didn't have money to lend is that they were using the capital to address problems, both known and feared. Similarly, I'm afraid that the only way to increase spending in this kind of climate is to actually spend the money. Tax breaks don't address the short-term objectives as directly as careful spending does.
fred, what's prickish about a columnist offering advice publicly? That's what columnists do!
wv: spitump - an occasional sight at baseball games?
Tim Ryan to run for Voinovich Seat
The Gist of the Plan
On Mankiw vs. Nate- Those of you who missed Zosima's comment on the earlier thread should catch it, a great little summary of the basics.
Here is a direct link to Zosima's comment.
Lately I've been happy to sit back and watch prices deflate while I horde my money and wait for the right time to buy both a new house and two new cars. At the same time, I know millions of people are behaving the same way I'm acutely aware of how dangerous a situation this is for the economy.
The regressive tax cuts that supply-siders like Mankiw generally favor would do nothing to change this situation. OTOH, an expansion of the EITC or other progressive tax cut could in fact spur consumer spending, but the lion's share of the money would have to go to those in the bottom quintile- people who would spend that money right away. A raise in the minimum wage could work too.
And don't be afraid to argue with academic economists- they don't know nearly as much as they pretend to know, and if they behave in a condescending manner, that's all the more reason to doubt them.
The main problem with Mankiw's reasoning is one that recurs through the Economics discipline. Fundamentally Mankiw is arguing that if the tax cut gives you a 300% multiplier effect during regular times when people are perfectly rational and things are hunky-dory, it will give you a 300% multiplier effect when things are not fine - even though it would not show up in the data as a 300% increase because of other data distortingreasons during a recession. This is fundamentally faulty because economic systems are dynamic. That is, Mankiw ignores the fact that people act differently in different macroeconomic situations - in a boom and in a recession. Different behavior patterns, in turn, affect the efficacy of tax cuts. Therefore, analyzing the experiment in a sterile, controlled experiment will not give you the results that you get in the real world.
As an example, when drugs or, in fact, any products are tested, they are tested in the world that they anticipate they are going to be used. That is, regular tyres to be used in temperate zones are tested in 'regular' temperatures and failure rates are recorded. However, it is obvious that failure rates in the controlled conditions may not apply in the arctic. We understand that the unusual conditions affect the efficacy of the actual tyres (affecting the very rubber it uses through expansion/contraction etc). Mankiw is in effect saying that it would have the same failure rate, but that the coldness of the Arctic merely distorts the figures. We know, however, that its not just the figures that are distorted by the unusual setting of the experiment, but that the tyres are actually less effective in that setting.
In short, using exogenous tax cut numbers in order to estimate the effectiveness of tax cuts in this economy is bogus economics on par with using regular tyre failure rates on the equator to estimate regular tyre failure rates in the arctic.
And p.s. Nate, great work.
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Silver - The first critique of Mankiw, a professional highly published economist, and his multiplier article was intelligent, but it happened your central theme was wrong. And along the way you slightly stepped over the line of rationale discourse and indulged into an ad hominem by questioning Mankiw's personal motives. Well it's the blogosphere, it happens, but Mankiw politely responded and a small apology was in order from you. Instead we get this litany of rationalizations, as if you set down at a prewired keyboard with the buttons 'straw man', a non-sequitor distraction into 'look i'm clever', and 'you cant make me' all neatly laid out along QWERTY.
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