1.16.2009

Is Coleman's Goal a Do-Over?

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. And maybe, Norm Coleman is hoping, elections in Minnesota.

Call it a hunch, but a couple of recent articles suggest that Norm Coleman's goal might not be to pull ahead of Al Franken outright, but rather to create enough confusion and uncertainty around the outcome of the recount that the Senate calls for a re-vote in Minnesota, as it did in the New Hampshire Senate Race of 1974.

Firstly, take this Wall Street Journal article from Michael Stokes Paulson, a law professor at the University of St. Thomas:

And what if there is no reliable way to determine in a recount who won, consistent with Bush v. Gore's requirements?

The Constitution's answer is a do-over. The 17th Amendment provides: "When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct."

In a sense, a vacancy has already "happened." The U.S. Senate convened on Jan. 6 with only one senator from Minnesota. Still, the seat is perhaps not "vacant," just unfilled. But if the contest proceeding does not produce a clear winner that passes constitutional muster, a special election -- and a temporary appointment by Gov. Tim Pawlenty -- may be the only answer.
Mr. Paulson's argumentation is poor. That the Constitution provides a theoretical mechanism for a do-over, one which the Senate exercised in 1974, does not mean that it compels or recommends one. And there is certainly no sense in the Constitution that the Senate is supposed to say "Ehh... it's pretty close -- let's have a do-over!". In New Hampshire in 1974, the outcome was genuinely in doubt, with one recount having certified the Democrat ahead by ten votes, and a second recount the Republican ahead by two votes.

Nevertheless, the fact that this piece appeared in the Journal, which just last week had published an inflammatory editorial which misstated several basic facts about the recount process, suggests that these are the preferred talking points of the Coleman campaign -- talking points which evidently involve planting the seed of a re-vote in the public's head.

Likewise, Marc Ambinder's piece in the Atlantic today invokes the possibility of a re-vote:
Where it becomes difficult for judges is in trying to reconciling disparate totals - how do they fix it? Do they add votes? Take them away? The judges will probably avoid this particular route. If you get into this margin where judges have to take away or add votes - artificializing the vote count in the mind of the public - then the clamor for a whole new election will increase. Actually, if Coleman begins to make up the 225 difference, Democrats might be the ones calling for a new election.
If you read the rest of Marc's piece, it's clear that it has been informed by discussions with the Coleman campaign; he's basically reporting the Coleman campaign's spin on the process. Which is fine -- Ambinder is one of the few reporters out there who actually does a lot of reporting, and reporting someone else's spin, as Ambinder does, is very different from spinning yourself. (I do think that Ambinder takes a number of the Coleman campaign's arguments too credulously.) But the pattern is the same: an article that presents the Coleman campaign's version of events again concludes by dangling the possibility of a re-vote.

I'd expect to hear more noises about a re-vote in the coming days. I'd also expect the Coleman campaign, in general, to try and create a fog of doubt around the recount process.

138 comments

David L said...

First!

Spam210wal said...

Paulsen's entire article rests on the false pretense that Bush v. Gore established precedent. I'm amazed he didn't realize this blatant error.

David L said...

First first, that was fun.

Weeeeell, considering that approval ratings and what not seem to show they just want Franken to be seated end-of, if there was a revote (not that there should be), he may just do quite well.

That's what happened in NH...

Kennyb said...

The odd thing about the 1974 New Hampshire race was that there WAS a re-vote, instead of the politically stronger party prevailing in forcing their will in the event of what amounted to a tie. I would argue, as undemocratic as it may seem, that the founders EXPECTED and ANTICIPATED that ties are to be decided politically. That's what ended up happening between Hayes and Tilden and between Bush and Gore and that's essentially what happens should the Electoral College tie 269-269, and while it may smack of mor power to the powerful, it has the benefit of finality. Come to think of it, it happened TO one of the founders, when Jefferson won the Presidency in the House of Representatives.

Alan said...

Coleman should remember the Winchester special-election in the UK in 1997. The original vote saw the Liberal Democrat win by 2 votes, a re-vote was order and the margin increased to 22,000!! The Tory was seen as a bad loser. his support collapsed and the former marginal is now a safe Liberal Democrat seat!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_by-election,_1997

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

David L

Congratulations on your first first. But a first first where you do not post "First" is better. ;)

Anyone that thinks FORMER Senator Coleman is doing anything other than grasping at straws in the faint hope of prevailing is drinking someone's kool-aid.

Al Franken (soon to be Senator) has acted, well, Senatorial since he took the lead in the recount. He is PERCEIVED to be the winner, and just like in the case of Bush-Gore, perception becomes political reality.

In the highly unlikely event of a "do-over", where exactly would Senator Coleman gather more votes? Al Franken can gather MANY votes from the indepedent candidates, even if they do run again.

Juris said...

@Nate. I think you are exactly correct. "The election count wasn't perfect, and the result is very close; let's have a do-over."

Perhaps the fundamental flaw in the argument is the assumption that a do-over would be totally flawless. Of course it can't be. The legal, constitutional issue has to be whether it was fair and constitutional, not whether it was perfect.

Rev. Barky said...

This has already started and has been going on since Franken pulled ahead a few weeks ago. Commentary by the parroting trolls in the comment section of the star tribune have attacked election officials and there has been lots of squawking about Franken trying to steal the election as if he had some invisible control over the process which was clearly bipartisan. Of course, they are just angry wasps in a jar.

tmess2 said...

I am assuming that Paulson is not a lawyer because no lawyer would argue that the Seventeenth Amendment provides for a do-over. It provides for the filling of a vacancy (presumptively caused by the death, expulsion, or resignation of a duly-elected Senator). The provision for this circumstance is Article I, Section 5, the Senate SHALL be the judge of the election.

The Coleman team is hoping for a do-over because each pleading that they file conclusively demonstrates that they don't know what they are doing or have a plan on how they can win the legal case.

Hopefully, the three judge panel will put Coleman out of his misery on Wednesday when they dismiss the election contest.

Siobhan said...

Good timing Nate, as TPM just posted this:

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/01/minnesota_election_court_throws_out_colemans_mega-.php

It gives me hope that the courts are resisting Coleman's publicity blitz and keeping this as a smaller affair.

jumpingGrendel said...

there definitely should be a re-vote: in 2014.

Vinny said...

Won't happen. No way in hell will Reid call for a new election.

Even if they did, the Minnesota voters are pissed at Coleman for his BS. Franken would win anyway.

Green said...

Which ever way this election goes, one thing is no longer in doubt-
Nate Silver has become one of the most astute, insightful, incredibly reasonable and credible commentators on the political goings-on in this country.

Not an once of ego or bravado. A sense of fairness and genuine reporting that reminds one or Murrow or Chronkite.
Not to mention the ability to do math!!

I think he could make a case for either side of an argument with the same intelligence and show the basis and relative merits.

He cuts through the fog and keeps a level head. I never feel manipulated.

That's a real blessing. Thanks.

C said...

Minnesota is BROKE. Minnesotans will not be amenable to a new election when they hear the price tag, after already paying for a recount.

Minnesotans are also SICK of both candidates, and want to hear no more from or about them. They will not be amenable to a new election between two candidates who both have negative approval ratings.

This will not sell. Even if it seems "unfair" to Coleman, people in Minnesota will say tough titties. It was unfair to Wellstone that he was killed in a plane crash. Life's unfair.

Michael (mbw) said...

Semi-on-topic.

The MN recount generally was extremely transparent and accurate, but it's clear that their election procedures could use a few minor tweaks before being taken as a model for the whole nation.

1. As Nate pointed out, during the recount process the reported numbers should start with the local judges counts, rather than the unchallenged counts, to reduce the incentive for massive bogus challenges.

2. Although Ritchie saved $ by having most of the process local, it looks like it would have been better to centralize the recount, both for uniformity and easy press access.

3. The duplicate problem could have been greatly reduced if the precincts were issued pens with phosphorescent ink to use for duplicates. Even if they were sometimes not used, the total number of ambiguities would be greatly reduced.

4. That still leaves some 10,000 'properly rejected' absentees. Anybody have any good ideas on how to reduce that rate?

Still, you wish it was this good everywhere.

Vinny said...

Speaking of Wellstone, how many Democrats were killed in plane crashes right before elections? We have Wellstone, Nick Begich, and I think there are a couple more.

I'd be careful if I were Al.

C said...

Michael: re #5, Minnesotans insist on being able to beat their absentee ballots to the polls. A good many of the "properly rejected" ballots were rejected because the voter voted on election day. That's evdience the process is working as designed, not necessarily evidence that something went wrong.

Dr. Monk said...

These fascists republicans will do just about any thing to advance their agenda. They need to rename party from Republican party to Fascist Party. This no doubt more clearly reflects their ideological stance towards constitutional government.

Aaron said...

Here's another response to Ambinder's post that I wrote in The Washington Independent:

http://washingtonindependent.com/26112/senator-coleman-dont-count-on-it

lover of jazz said...

does a revote benefit coleman? it seems as though an awful lot of people who voted for the third party candidate will likely go for franken if they get a do-over, yes?

Dave said...

Nate,

Not to point out the obvious, since you are a man of numbers but you are using somewhat misleading numbers.

You say: "In New Hampshire in 1974, the outcome was genuinely in doubt, with one recount having certified the Democrat ahead by ten votes, and a second recount the Republican ahead by two votes."

Using the two sources listed below, I have the voting population of NH in 1974 as approximately 550,000 people. Likewise the voting population of MN in 2006 (last available census estimate) is 4,820,000 or roughly 10 times as large. Therefore to have equivalent percentage margin of victories, the NH vote in 1974 would be equivalent to a 100 vote D victory followed by a 20 vote R victory. This is clearly a closer margin than the current MN race, but not as close as the numbers you post make it seem.


www.census.gov/population/socdemo/voting/p25-526/tab01.pdf

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/27000.html

Eric said...

According to this poll, if Minnesotans had an opportunity to vote for the Senate race again with all of the same candidates, Franken would win handily. And thats in a 3 way race. Franken would kill Coleman in a 2 way race.

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/mn_state_of_senate_dailykos189.php

Even a re-vote isn't a winning strategy for Coleman. I think at this point its just a broader strategy by the GOP to deny the Dems a vote for as long as possible.

Law School Cynic said...

You mean "try TO create a fog" not "try and create a fog."

I like this site, but man do I hate how you get that wrong again and again and again. Try to remember not to say "try and [verb]" in the future.

st paul sage said...

clearly, the MN repubs have been pushing for anything other than to seat Senator Franken - including a do-over (or if he loses that - maybe best of five?).

but the logistics of a second election are ridiculous. minnesotans hated the negative ads for an entire year - you think we want more?

the election challenge will proceed in the court and when it is done - someone (most likely al franken) will get his certificate and head to the senate.

also a democratically controlled senate will not call for a do-over of a senate race where the democrat won - ever.

DCM in FL said...

NATE said:

"Call it a hunch..."

OK, I agree that 'it' [Coleman] sure is acting like a proverbial troll

that presumes 'it' has a hunch on his back, so let's call Norm 'Quasimodo' - it fits...

soon that could be his prison nickname too

DCM in FL said...

LAW

try AND try again AND again...

try to avoid generalizing...lol

RufusRules said...

"Try to" vs. "try and"

If I remember correctly, that argument has already been beaten to death here. At this point Nate probably uses "try and" just to annoy the grammar snobs.

Caredwen said...

Also remember that Wyman, who wanted the revote, lost his election rather badly.

If Coleman is pulling for a revote, he must really think he has a snowball's chance in hell of being certified at the moment.

fred said...

The university of St. Thomas? The WSJ is depending not even on fourth rate U.S. universities for insanely poor input?

Jeepers, that is just too bad, call me when a more reputable person argues for the Coleman campaign...

Ambinder is becoming a right wing hack too. Isn't he the guy who excoriated the entire press for pro-Obama bias? Anyone else see some pro-Repub bias with Mr. Ambinder?

Another Mike said...

I disagree with Nate that seeking a recount is a Coleman strategy. The only mechanism for a recount is if the Senate ordered it. And, I cannot imagine the Senate requiring a recount if Franken prevails and gets the certificate of election. Absolutely no way that ever happens.

The recount meme is more likely coming from Republicans generally, especially the far right wing of the party, as a means to cast doubt on the legitimacy of Franken's win and thus weaken him and anything he says and does over the next year. Not sure how effective it will be, but there's really no downside for them to suggesting he's illegitimate.

Statler N Waldorf said...

It is a distinct possibility. the RNC might be more willing to spend on Coleman if he has a second shot, especially if the RNC will pour on the cash.

While Franken may have less money, he might be able to make hay out of the fact that MN has only 1 Senator right now because Coleman is blocking his seat. he might also be able to score points by pointing out that this thing has dragged on long enough. Dunno what that is worth electorally, but it is a card to play.

MNLatteLiberal said...

Nate, to your supposition of

"Call it a hunch, but a couple of recent articles suggest that Norm Coleman's goal might not be to pull ahead of Al Franken outright, but rather to create enough confusion and uncertainty around the outcome of the recount that the Senate calls for a re-vote in Minnesota..."


I would add the following observation(s):
1) Based on their voting patterns, only 40% of the Minnesota electorate are THAT easily confused

and as it also happens,

2) Based on their voting patterns, only 40% of the US Senate are THAT easily confused.

Superimpose 1) onto 2) and you pretty much get Norm constrained out using that sort of tactic.

Since the 3 judge panel pretty much stuck with following the law, and starting the election contest hearing in 10 days, it appears unlikely they will fall enchanted by Coleman's siren-like swan song.
(The latter happens to be a great label started by Led Zeppelin - another in a series of odd coincidences :))

~ Latte, still banned from Strib commentary without any reason given.

Mark said...

Norm Coleman is a bag of dick.

fred said...

new thread

loner said...

fred—

No. That was Mark Halperin of Time. He's the idiot who thought McCain "won" campaign suspension week.

As for Coleman: The situation is desperate but not serious.

nikip5555 said...

Reporting someone else's spin is okay ONLY if you tell everyone very clearly that that's what you're doing.

As for the issue at hand, no one who has been paying attention is going to buy the "uncertainty" angle. The recount has been super-transparent, and even in cases like the 133 missing ballots there is very strong evidence supporting the decisions made so far. Coleman may be able to sway the minds of those who haven't been paying attention (i.e. most everyone, and esp the WSJ), but he won't sway the courts.

Nate may be onto something in that a "do-over" may be Coleman's last desperate hope, but the likelihood of this happening is extremely small. I like the hypothesis that Coleman's primary motivation is simply to delay seating Franken. As Nate has pointed out, until Franken is seated, the Dems need two Repubs to break a filibuster; after that, they only need one. Obama's "bipartisanship" may make this moot, but the Repubs aren't taking any chances.

coolstar said...

Even though I'm happy Franken pulled ahead in the recount (though he was a terrible candidate, essentially tying in a state Obama won by about 11 points), I'm by no means convinced that his margin is statistically significant. (I happen to think Franken may be a better senator than candidate, btw.) MN runs about as clean an election system as it gets in this country (though, as pointed out, not perfect) but their "spoilage" rate is still much larger than the current margin. Thus I have no problem with the IDEA of a recount. Yes, it would be expensive, yes, the people in MN are likely sick of both Coleman and Franken, and yes, Franken would probably win handily.
How can that be seen as a BAD result? How can ANYONE winning by a valid margin in a clean election be seen as a BAD result? Isn't that a BETTER result than having to hear for 6 years that Franken's election is "invalid" or "stolen"? I've thought all along that a revote was clearly the path to follow. Do I expect it to happen? Of course not: the same people who would be SCREAMING for a revote if Franken had turned out to be a few votes behind in the recount will now be screaming just as loudly to let the results stand as is. Thus proving what we knew coming in: it's not so much about democracy as it's about having your guy win.

phil said...

Paulsen, not Paulson.

Michael (mbw) said...

@ coolstar- What do you mean by 'statistically significant'? If there were 10,000 randomly lost F or C votes, the s.d. of the margin would be 100. The current margin is 225, more than twice the s.d., and would be statistically significant by standard criteria. I strongly doubt there are anywhere near that number of random errors. The various challenges don't mention anything like that.
If you mean that there may be some systematic pattern to lost votes, unless this election is a complete anomaly then there are more D votes than R votes lost due to voter screw-ups. That was certainly true of the votes that were screwed up but not to the point of uncountability. That's why F gained in the recount.
So there is almost no doubt that more people voted for F than for C. That doesn't mean that the remaining improperly rejected absentees shouldn't be checked, or that there shouldn't be at least a cursory look at possible double-counting, to make sure it wouldn't make much difference. However, if you think that close calls can be avoided by do-overs you're wrong. We'll just have two close-call ranges at either end of the do-over range. And we'll have more special elections where there are big turn-out problems.

ABowers said...

The WSJ article was a real hatchet job. Lots of rhetoric about errors, irregularities, different standards applied, etc. But no connection to the actual recount. The professor clearly did NOT read Nate's analysis of the recount. A number of comments pointed out all the errors of the article, but I'm sure WSJ is just ranting because their man lost.
As an observer who has watched and read everything about the recount from the beginning, I can assure you this has been the fairest, most open recount possible. The only part that needs correcting is to review the rejected absentee ballots with a final determination made by the State Canvassing Board. And if more wrongly rejected absentee ballots are counted, Franken will win by a bigger margin.

drich said...

latte,

I was banned too. I think mrtruth had something to do with it.

I emailed the strib and someone got back to me saying I needed to clean my cache, blah, blah, blah. He said I had an active account but I still get the ban message.

I registered a different account.

drich said...

Coleman also filed a motion today to stop the 64 Franken voters who filed a petition to get their wrongly rejected absentee ballots counted.

http://tinyurl.com/79v3wm

Z-Brilliance said...

As a UST Law grad, I'm not impressed by the article. Our school's professors are capable of much better.

Statler N Waldorf said...

In the last chapter of Franken,s most recent book, he talks about a 'quickie impeachment' of Bush during the period between when the 111th Congress convenes and the Inauguration of Obama.

Maybe this whole thing is just the GOP taking him seriously, and trying to tie him up so he can't impeach Bush?

lojasmo said...

1) I wouldn't be surprised if the panel dismissed coleman's challenge with prejudice. It is entirely without merit. I laughed my ass off all the way through the read.

2) If it goes to trial, Coleman's lawyers will beat Coleman's lawyers about the head and shoulders with the complaint. The superior quality of Franken's rejoinder is evident in every word.

3) It is extraordinarily unlikely that Reid would suggest a revote. He has said "Norm Coleman will NEVER sit in this senate again"

4) If a revote occurred, Franken would mop the floor with Coleman. Minnesotans already see coleman as a sore loser and has-been.

This is done, and Al will be my next senator.

LDW said...

Even though Coleman will almost certainy lose, I wonder if the RNC might be in favor of this election contest for the following 2 reasons:

(1) The delay in seating another democratic senator and the impact (albeit marginal) that it may have to a Republican filibuster during the interim.

(2) The talking points for national public consumption that the Republicans gain if they insist on a revote, but Franken is seated by the Democratic Congress anyway.

The talking points aimed at their base and Independents might be that for very close contested elections (especially in which potential funny business" might have occurred), there should always be a revote.

The implication being that if the Democratic Congress seats Franken, they are going against prescedent and doing so only for partisan reasons.

Pressure and concern about future Democratic congressional gains could be experienced by the Democratic leadership. In fact, if the leadership felt Franken would be highly likely win the revote - perhaps they would feel it is ultimately the lesser of evils to go along with a revote, despite the added delay to seating Franken.

MNLatteLiberal said...

@drichmn,
fwiw, I saw your new handle today. In my case, they are not letting me register from the same ISP address. And rather than go through some anonymous IP or a different ISP/IP address, I would rather press the issue with the editor of the online edition. It really bothers me that someone is a little too trigger-happy over-moderating, and not completely impartially at that.

Of course, the paper did file Ch. 11 yesterday, and whoever it is over there certainly has bigger issues than us.

Back on topic, while I do hope the 3 judge panel does toss Coleman lawsuit, imho, that is unlikely. For the likely appeal and for the public image/PR they NEED to look through the claims openly and in some detail. While that will not assuage the wingnuts, the conspiracy aficionados and the rest of the lunatic fringe, it will go a long way towards exposing what most of us here (and on the pages of Strib commentary) already know about Coleman.

In that 60/40 electorate split, there are about 20% who will follow a sack of manure off the cliff as long as it has an elephant logo on it. That ~ 20 dubya approval rating percent will not be persuaded, not by the open election contest, not by the impartial and balanced Canvassing Board. But for the sake of the other 20%, the panel will hear the case. IMHO of course, but it's kinda common sense.

wv: cheshi - a Cheshire-like grin on the face of Mike Cireci as he and Betty McCallum hatched the Playboy article outing scheme pre-primaries.
~ Latte

MNLatteLiberal said...

Sorry for the self follow up, but a point of clarification: my 60/40 electoral splits and the rest of the electoral patterns refer specifically to MN, although similar trends with slightly different numbers can be seen across the nation.

Davy said...

This begs the question: in a do-over who would the third party people go for?

KWRegan said...

@Dave, comment above:

Margins of the same level of significance don't scale linearly with the number N of voters---rather, they scale as the square root of N. Thus in your analogy:

NH....0,550,000 voters....10 & 2
MN....4,820,000 voters....?? & ?

the correct numbers are 30 & 6, since the ratio is a factor of 9 and the sqrt of 9 is 3.

Which means to say, Franken's margin is more significant than the New Hampshire case, and the 129-vote certification of the 2004 WA Gov recount, though it is still 10 times smaller than a typical random deviation.

It has seemed clear to me since early December that Coleman, knowing the jig was up with the improperly rejected absentees, has been pursuing the strategy noted by Nate here.

Pragmatus said...

Coleman is trying to raise the dead here. I am reminded of Jefferson Davis scuttling around trying to rally a "country" which had been defeated by every measure of that term.

I predict that the Minnesota courts will bring down the flyswatter on Coleman in quick-time, and if he goes to the next court level the Senate should simply seat Franken and then disregard Coleman's squalling.

Opus 132 said...

@ LDW

if the leadership felt Franken would be highly likely win the revote - perhaps they would feel it is ultimately the lesser of evils to go along with a revote, despite the added delay to seating Franken.

No way! The Democrats hold the high ground here,namely that they've won the election fair and square.To cave unnecessarily would be a continuation of their fearful and craven behavior over the last eight years (see Harry Reid) and would ensure constant efforts by McConnell and crew to obstruct Obama's program.

Let the court contest continue and allow everybody to see the Republican lies and half-lies.

green libertarian said...


~ Latte, still banned from Strib commentary without any reason given.


LATTE! I wondered what happened to ya.

Bastards.

Been there, done that. I got banned so many times from my local newspapers web site, I had the record. But the Blog owner, a hard right conservative, would relent after a couple a few weeks and let me back on. Last time tho, he said it was permanent, and the sys admin types, editors, etc all said, no go.

But I'm back on, since they put new commenting software up. I went in stealth and with a new handle, and not stirring up much, but a couple of the regulars figured it out and emailed me, and think the blog owner figured it out today, but I'm still not banned.

Anyway, have missed you over there at the Strib for your outstanding humor and perfect mockery of the Coleman supporters and other idiots.

Hope you get it worked out soon.

I saw that drich got a new handle, was wondering about that... good to see you there too!
-taconite 12

green libertarian said...

Oh, and as to the matter at hand, yes, Coleman (actually his RNC handlers) is just trying to drag this out as long as possible, cast aspersions on the process, further demonize Franken (already the GOP's #1 enemy), taint the process and sew seeds of doubt.

Yes, he'll be calling more and more for a revote, but he's not gonna get it, period. But if he did my some miracle, he'd likely lose by 6 points, however with the much lower recount turnout , Franken would probably win it with less votes than Coleman got in the Nov. election, another thing he'd crow about.

He's got about a page of good argument to make in his hundreds of pages of briefs, and even IF he prevailed on those, it's not enough to change the outcome the CB certified.

In short, Coleman wants to solidify with his base the idea that this was an unfair, stolen election.

Davy said...

@Latte

I saw you at another site. What did you do to piss everyone off?

BTW I just saw that the approval rating of Bush in Africa was 80%. I guess we have to acknowledge his AIDS work although I think it's as empty a gesture as the declaration of the Marine Monuments in the Pacific. Maybe he can run for President of Africa and fuck their country up, too.

Pragmatus said...

Green Libertarian...

You can sew sequins of doubt, but as for seeds of doubt you will have to sow them...

:o)))))

green libertarian said...

You can sew sequins of doubt, but as for seeds of doubt you will have to sow them...

:o)))))


-Pragmatus

LOL!

Point most graciously taken.

It appears not to be true, that drinking only kills the weak brain cells. Damn, they lied to me.

Matt said...

Coleman just wants to drag Franken down with him. He probably knows his most recent challenges will be rejected. He's filed 654 challenges, whereas Franken's victory margin is somewhere in the 400s. Obviously, if all his challenges get rejected(likely), he will be able to say he was robbed-400ish-vote margin for Franken + 654 Coleman votes =Coleman wins. It's idiotic to assume all those votes are for him, but there just needs to be that little uncertainty to lend credence to the stolen-election hypothesis.

Pragmatus said...

green libertarian...

'Twas all in fun. Glad you have a good sense of humor!

Different alcohols kill different brain cells. I've had best luck with Jack Daniels and soda--the brain cells it kills deliver a pleasant kick on the way out...

WV: pizon, as in Oh pizon all of you...

Statler N Waldorf said...

The Sequins of Doubt. Sounds like a working title for a novel about a drag act at a country/western bar.

Michael (mbw) said...

@ C
According to the STrib http://www.startribune.com/newsgraphics/35092414.html
none of the major 'reject' categories could include people who then showed up at the polls. Almost all the rejections were due to avoidable problems with signatures, etc. I wonder if some sort of on-line option could reduce those, by providing quick feedback of any problems. Maybe there are some better ways.
Or just allowing early voting to reduce the number of mail-in absentees or both.

Again, I'm not knocking the MN system but thinking of how to tweak it because it's so much better than most.

gotoran said...

I've been saying this for more than a month...Coleman just wants a second chance at winning. Bottom line is that he lost, he's a loser, and should be crushed...just as the gopers would do to the Dems.

RivierRatt said...

Nate's analysis appears dead-on to me. It's long appeared that Coleman was desperately fighting a losing battle. Though a re-vote is a long-shot, it's better than any other shot he has.

People who've been impatient with the recount, imploring, "Let's just have a second election," have been ignorant of the facts that: 1) MN has a well-defined legal means for resolving such close elections, b) A re-vote would likely take longer and cost longer than a recount, and gamma) There's no assurance that a re-vote wouldn't result in the same tortured agonizingly close election.

OT, the same logical dysfunction applies to those who advocate having a "None of the Above" option on the ballot. What if "NOTA" wins? Do you have a re-vote? Where do they figure the magical perfect candidates would come from?

Anyhoo, I'm still confident that there will be a Senator Franken. I just don't know when. How'bout we set an informal pool? Just pick a date, and we can see who comes closest. I'm giving it a month and a week. Thus, I'm picking Feb. 24 as the date when VP Biden swears him in. What's your guess?


wv: PIhers: what a woman uses to get dirt on her husband in a divorce proceeding.

loomisnews said...

Proof, as if we needed it, that Republicans figure they should be allowed to steal any election that's even just close. How pathetic.

(Speaking of "pathetic", since you're moderating post comments before they appear, how about declaring a ban on any idiots who insist on just posting "FIRST" or "SECOND" or other forms of sad internet whoring?)

green libertarian said...

Statler N Waldorf said...

The Sequins of Doubt. Sounds like a working title for a novel about a drag act at a country/western bar.


LMAO!

green libertarian...

'Twas all in fun. Glad you have a good sense of humor!

Different alcohols kill different brain cells. I've had best luck with Jack Daniels and soda--the brain cells it kills deliver a pleasant kick on the way out...

WV: pizon, as in Oh pizon all of you...


With the economy in the tank, and two useless wars going on, I have to have a sense of humor.

I do prefer a good whiskey (Canadian, typically VO) and soda over ice, however, as mentioned, the economy has me financially on the rocks, hence my (forced) consumption of cheap Chardonnay, which is killing the good brain cells, demonstrably.

wv-woosom. Woosom bitches that threw the economy in the ditch.

green libertarian said...

Thus, I'm picking Feb. 24 as the date when VP Biden swears him in. What's your guess?

March 4th, in commemoration of the last March 4th Presidential inauguration, that of FDR in 1933, and one the best presidential speeches in history.

So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory. I am convinced that you will again give that support to leadership in these critical days.
In such a spirit on my part and on yours we face our common difficulties. They concern, thank God, only material things. Values have shrunken to fantastic levels; taxes have risen; our ability to pay has fallen; government of all kinds is faced by serious curtailment of income; the means of exchange are frozen in the currents of trade; the withered leaves of industrial enterprise lie on every side; farmers find no markets for their produce; the savings of many years in thousands of families are gone.

More important, a host of unemployed citizens face the grim problem of existence, and an equally great number toil with little return. Only a foolish optimist can deny the dark realities of the moment.


http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres49.html

Sounds remarkably prescient to today's times.

coolstar said...

@Michael (mpw)
The total number of spoiled ballots is likely considerably larger than 10,000 (there were 10,000, if I remember correctly, UNCOUNTED absentee ballots by themselves) so that's a lower limit. Root N stats hardly tell the entire story as they leave out all the systematics. True errors are likely to be several times root N. If the recount could be done again, independently, with all the inherent errors (and remember, this is about as good as it gets), I would be surprised if the winner didn't change in at least 3 out of 10 cases. A change of opinion on any of a number of decisions in the recount and the margin is under even root N stats in the best case scenario. Finally, to my knowledge, there's never been a revote in anything as large as even a congressional district where the winner was not clear even by my somewhat conservative criteria (and in this case, you WANT conservative criteria). If even a large fraction of an electorate believes an election is "stolen" (oh, think the last 8 years), that's a very, very bad thing for a democracy (and please, trolls, don't quibble over my use of that word). What sane person wouldn't have wanted a revote in Florida in 2000? Personally, I'd set the "automatic revote" margin somewhere in the range of 2-4 times root N of the spoilage rate.

green libertarian said...

Almost all the rejections were due to avoidable problems with signatures, etc. I wonder if some sort of on-line option could reduce those, by providing quick feedback of any problems. Maybe there are some better ways.
Or just allowing early voting to reduce the number of mail-in absentees or both.

-Michael(MBW)

Here in WA we have almost universal all mail elections. In my county, it's all mail in. All registered voters are mailed a ballot with a secrecy envelope. If you mail it back, must be postmarked on or before election day. You can drop your envelope off at numerous locations, like all libraries and transit centers. You can drop off your ballot envelope up until 8 pm on election day.

Ballots are counted (no results released) as they come in. There is no witness requirement (which are useless anyway.) In you forget to sign you envelope, or your signature doesn't match, you will be contacted by the county elections department by phone or letter notifying you on how to correct the problem before the final counting is done, which is a couple weeks after election day.

We had a super close election here in November for a State House position. I think it was some 15,000 ballots cast, and the incumbent GOPer was losing by 84 votes on the final machine count. They did a hand recount, and the GOPer lost by 74 votes.

This process is much smoother because it is done centrally, and the time pressure is not an issue, since most votes are already counted by election day, and normally results are definitive at that time except in the case of super close elections, where the ballots mailed in the few days before election day come straggling in.

Michael (mbw) said...

@C- It looks like a fair number of the uncounted absentees, the biggest anomalous category, were likely to be properly and unavoidably not counted, i.e. from unregistered voters. I agree with you that systematic errors in this case are likely to exceed random ones. My point was that these systematic errors almost always work against the D candidate, except maybe in Chicago. So it would be odd to go outside the regular system to call to revote an election which we won both formally and by voter intent. As I wrote before, that would be a path to more disputed calls, not less.

BTW, I agree there is a sense in which the outcome is random. Some fraction of voters don't make it to the polls because of dead batteries, kids with the flu, etc. Maybe 2%? That would be 60,000 randomly missing votes. So I think the voting process has bigger intrinsic random error bars than the MN counting. It's unclear why a recount would be a good way to deal with that intrinsic problem. Low-turnout elections also may produce some sense of illegitimacy.

st paul sage said...

I'm surprised by Coolstar suggesting that a new election would be superior to accepting the results of a close election.

The problems are many:
1) Minnesotans don't want it.
2) MN would be deprived of one senator for months and if the second election was really close then we would have another recount and then another new election. Utterly silly.
3) There are no rules for new elections like this - should it be a runoff like GA? should anyone get to run (Dean Barkley could say that everyone is so sick of the two them that he would win)? when would it be? who would pay the gigantic pricetag?
4) Turnout is much lower in runoffs meaning many Minnesotans would literally be disenfranchised.

Close elections are somewhat rare, but they do happen (WA '04), Reid's 2nd election I think, small town mayor races often end up with candidates winning by single digits. There's nothing wrong with a close race and you win the seat whether you win by 1 vote for 1 million votes. That's the way it is in America and if the recount is complete and fair (it was in MN this year, it was not in FL in 2000) I'm fine with it even if my guy or gal loses. And you should be too.

ABowers said...

The Minnesota ECC has set out a timeline for the contest and looks like they plan to move pretty quickly. Lawyers have to have all information, witness lists, documents, etc to court by next Tuesday!!
The MNN Supreme Court sent the 65 uncounted absentee ballots onto the ECC for a decision. Most of these probably should be counted as the voter swears the signature matches, they are registered etc. Most interesting - EVERY voter swears the vote was for Franken!! Say so, right on their petitions. So every one that gets counted is an additional vote for Franken. Coleman does not seem to have filed anything comparable.
GO Franken.

Bug said...

Wow, what a mischaracterization of the WSJ article. The issue in the article was equal treatment of votes, which CLEARLY has NOT been going on in this election.

And who was the pinhead who said SCOTUS decisions aren't precedent?

Sheesh, partisan minds are so small.

Your Pal,
Bugboy

ABowers said...

Hey Bugboy,

You obviously have NOT been watching the recount. The issue with Bush-V-Gore was that there was NO uniform process for recounting. But the recount in Minnesota has a very uniform process for the recount. All votes were recounted by hand in full view of challengers from both campaigns. Over 800 ballots were challenged and sent to the 5 member Canvassing Board for review. They used the exact same criteria for deciding each ballot and almost all their decisions were unanimous. Only ONE member of the five was a Democrat.
Every challenge raised by Franken or Coleman was decided by either the Canvassing Board or the Supreme Court. All decisions but the one on absentee ballots were unanimous. And we hope more absentee ballots are counted as they favor Franken.
Just because Coleman lost does not mean the process was unfair.
Get over it.

polls_apart said...
This post has been removed by the author.
polls_apart said...

@Bug:
In Bush v. Gore, the decision included words to the effect that the decision was not to be considered as setting a precedent.

Opus 132 said...

Anybody have a can of Raid?

RivierRatt said...

@polls_apart:

@Bug:
In Bush v. Gore, the decision included words to the effect that the decision was not to be considered as setting a precedent.


Yes, and therefore, to fully answer Bug's question ("And who was the pinhead who said SCOTUS decisions aren't precedent?"), the pinhead in question was William Rehnquist, with Sandra Day O'Connor, Anthony Kennedy, Clarence Thomas, and Antonin Scalia as colleagues in pinheadedness.

Bug said...

SCOTUS decisions most certainly are precedent, on several levels.

First, the reasoning used to make the decision in Bush v Gore can most certainly be used again as they apply to new cases, the caveat being the facts and ruling in B v G were specific to that case. However, the legal principles certainly are precedent no matter who says otherwise, such as Equal Protection.

Second, and this one makes me laugh "tee hee", no Supreme Court (or decision thereof) can limit what a future Supreme Court can do by what it says in its rulings, otherwise we would still have slavery and prohibition. Tee Hee.

Funny how people can talk themselves into overlooking things like cheating and unfairness when all they really want is for their "side" to win elections.

Well, now I think I've sufficiently clicked all of your collective heads like Moe.

Remind me to be pals with you later,
Bugboy

Bug said...

The cherry-picking that has been going on in this MN recount has been about as corrupt as can be. How any of you can ignore this or give a free pass on this is beyond bewildering.

And the big tip off is the statistical impossibility of all of these Franken votes popping up. Do you really believe these newly-fabricated votes are fair and honest, or do you just want your guy to win?

Pals for honest people only,
Bugboy

mediapost said...

@Bug,

I'm confused about what you mean by 'cherry-picking' on the Franken side. Please give an example. Franken wanted all 1350 improperly rejected absentees to be counted. It was Coleman who wouldn't go along with it and sued. They eventually ended up with 933 ballots that BOTH campaigns AND the local official agreed were improperly rejected. Franken still gained 176 votes. Also, if Coleman wants equal treatment of ballots then why does he now want 654 cherry-picked absentees reviewed for a 3rd time. If he's all about 'equal treatment' then shouldn't he want ALL the now twice-rejected absentees reviewed a 3rd time?

MNLatteLiberal said...

@mediapost,
Don't waste your time with Bug.
I've seen his jolly trolling type so many times on this issue, I can predict what he is going to cite.

Firstly, he will correct you regarding "cherry-picking on Franken side", or just ignore that altogether. But he will harp on "the the big tip off is the statistical impossibility of all of these Franken votes popping up". And you too know the usual bunk that he will try to float as "statistical proof": (a) that all the newly discovered ballots favored Franken (not true and debunked by dozens of ballots appearing in one county that favored Coleman), (b) the long-since debunked ballots in the trunk story (but he will toss that turd in anyway), (c) claims that it is statistically impossible for the votes to swing that much in the period between election day count and the certification date (false, there are tons of races, including MN races where the vote swing was in the thousands), (d) and this is my favorite: he will cite some mysterious "law of averages" without any citation given.

There are at least a couple more "statistical impossibilities" for the Right that I am sure I am missing here. You have to forgive me, I am a little rusty on my lunatic fringe thought patterns.

The most likely outcome, however, is that BugBoy will not bother commenting, period. If he returns, and he will likely return, I bet, he will be on to some new non-sequitur, if troll history is any indication.

I am gonna pop some corn and watch the bug show. It promises to be a lot of fun.

~ Latte (now banned from STRIB under a new identity too)

Bug said...

MediaPost: You don't think there is a suspicious amount of activity from Franken precincts? You honestly believe there is even-handed treatment of ballots across the state? Franken's group has done a marvelous job here of matching up these ballots with their (likely) party members. I'll give Franken credit for his obvious talent in being organized. He (and his staff/supporters) have done a commendable job in stealing a US Senate seat. That there are criminals who participate in such things is not very surprising, but that so many seemingly law-abiding members of the public smirk and let it happen so it can further their partisan agenda is the disturbing part.

MNLatteLiberal: You talk a lot but did not provide any citations yourself for your "claims". What you consider to be "debunking" is quite selective, if not self-serving.

Your Analytical Pal,
Bugboy

DCM in FL said...

please pass the RAID

mediapost said...

@Bug,

You stated, "Franken's group has done a marvelous job here of matching up these ballots with their (likely) party members."

This implies that you believe that Franken manipulated which absentees were counted. The facts of what happened with the absentees are indisputable. After Franken presented much evidence that a significant number of absentee ballots were improperly rejected the CB eventually suggested that the counties identify and count all improperly rejected absentee ballots. Coleman then sued and the MNSC made their now famous ruling that required the local officials and BOTH campaigns to agree that a ballot was improperly rejected before it was counted. After the local officials identified the improperly rejected absentees (There turned out to be 1350) Franken suggested to the Coleman camp that both sides forego their veto power. Coleman refused. Eventually both sides could only agree on 933 ballots and 417 voters were left out in the cold.

So, it sounds like you're claiming that Franken played the game that Coleman forced him to play better than Coleman. Perhaps he did. I hope that eventually the 417 ballots do get counted. But, that isn't what Coleman is suing about. Coleman is still just as happy to have those 417 improperly rejected absentees ballots go uncounted. Coleman is suing so that 654 cherry-picked absentees can be reviewed a 3rd time.

MNLatteLiberal said...

Citations for BugBoy

OK, I will bite. I am offering you two citation that substantiate my clams.

For the debunked ballots in the trunk story, click here

For the debunking the claim that this is the largest and unprecedented vote swing evah, click here

All this has been posted and reposted, some even by Nate earlier. There is nothing new to my citations. If you want more, I can give you more, but first, lesse what you got. I am assuming you will provide similar links that substantiate your assertions. Your move, boy.

~ Latte

green libertarian said...


~ Latte (now banned from STRIB under a new identity too)


Oh fer god's sakes... What now?

Bug said...

Mediapost...My position is that Franken was better mobilized to steal the election based on voter addresses. Therefore, Coleman was forced to play Franken's game, and wasn't very good at it. The argument that Franken was an innocent bystander until Coleman started cheating is silly. Coleman clearly had the election won until Franken and his soldiers could cheat enough to steal it.

Latte...the trunk ballot story is NOT debunked. I'm rebunking it right here:
http://www.minnpost.com/davidbrauer/2008/11/12/4565/minneapolis_election_director_speaks_ballots_in_my_car_story_false

This article, oddly an attempt at debunking, actually bunks it. Not only does it confirm the ballots were in the car but the ratios are not believeable.

Everyones' Bunk Pal,
Bugboy

Bug said...

Coleman's inability to keep his lead in this rotten recount proves he's honest. Only a crook would be able to pull it off.

Clicking heads and taking names
(but not of pals)

Bugboy

Mardi said...

What I am wondering is why it is taking the MN SC so long to rule on Coleman's lawsuit. They ruled very quickly on all the others he filed.

Opus 132 said...

@ Mardi

What Coleman lawsuit are you talking about?

Unless I missed one,the last Coleman lawsuit was the one filing for an election contest.This was granted and begins Jan.26.

Valeriu said...

"if the contest proceeding does not produce a clear winner that passes constitutional muster"

If the election board certifies a total, and the courts reject challenges to that total, hasn't the election produced "a clear winner that passes constitutional muster?"

Isn't the only thing that wouldn't be characterized as a "clear Winner that passes constitutional muster," a tie? Is there a statute in Minnesota that allows for a non-tie being defined as "No Clear Winner?"

prionsdontdie said...

Get the fly swatter or hang the zapper.

It has been repeatedly pointed out that neither Coleman or Franken are trying to cheat. It's childish and unprofessional to suggest that hiring more experienced and competent legal staff to present your arguments is cheating. Just because one candidate was behind on election night does not mean the he is not the eventual winner with more votes. Better lawyers does not equal cheating.
Get over it! Coleman wanted Franken to concede when he was behind. How about following his own advice.

prionsdontdie said...

I love the term Franken precincts and Franken ballots. As if there is anything but an election precinct that would split, lean or be solid based on historical data.

green libertarian said...

This commenter pretty much covers what the bug troll is saying/doing:

On November 12, 2008, Author Editor Eric Ferguson says:

Thank you David. However David, and you other commenters who think this will bring this particular misunderstanding to an end, no it won't. I cannot believe that all these Republican lawyers, and Tim Pawlenty himself, are as ignorant of election procedures as they pretend. Most commenters on news sites just can't be bothered to check out facts or they assume anything that contradicts Fox is a lie, but Pawlenty and Coleman know full well their charges are nonsense. They won't stop. I just ask that the press avoid making a falsely balanced pretense that both sides are trying to screw things up. Sometimes the truth isn't halfway between. You watch: conservatives will never drop the ballots in the car story, no matter how false they know it to be.

Bug said...

"neither Coleman or Franken are trying to cheat"

Yet Franken has clearly benefited from there being surprise votes, including car ballots and more votes than voters.

Car ballots, car ballots, car ballots. What, a 2:1 ratio for Franken? Simply not believable.

Any of you "geniuses" have statistical proof of why the recount went OVERWHELMINGLY in Franken's favor, nearly 100% of the time?

Pals-4-Ever,
Bugboy

Michael (mbw) said...

@Bug
The Franken ratio in the few votes that were stored overnight was typical for Minneapolis precincts. BFD.

The overall recount tended toward Franken for several very well-established reasons.

1. The old Eagle machines, which miss a lot of votes, were around Duluth, giving a margin gain of around 30 for F, as expected.

2. There were more F voters and precincts who screwed up ballots (e.g. x's instead of ovals) in ways that could still be counted by hand. That's very typical because there are more D voters at the uneducated end (also at the educated end) of the spectrum and D precincts tend to be crowded and hurried.

So, roughly speaking, each candidate lost around 300 votes from wrongly counted machine ballots, but F picked up nearly 900 and C about 600 from poorly filled out ballots that the machines missed. That's a little more unbalanced, but not much, than was expected going in.

The rejected absentees favored F both because absentees as a whole tended that way and because again there tend to be more screw ups in D districts than in R ones.

Of C's complaints, one probably has some merit. There may have been some double-counting of duplicates. Taking away these extra votes would probably help C for exactly the same reasons that counting the missing votes helped F- the errors are denser in the D districts. However, even when C cherry-picked his best case scenario, his margin would only improve by about 100. More realistic whole-state estimates are more in the range of 70. That's way short of 225.

Then there are the remaining improperly rejected absentees. Even though it's entirely C's fault for not agreeing to count all these, in fairness to the voters they should be counted, along with the occasional stray vote that was wrongly rejected twice. It's unlikely that C will pick up much, if anything, out of this.

So yes, there are some remaining uncertainties, but C would only win at the far edge of the reasonable error bars. The court should be able to narrow that range down very quickly by counting the 400 wrongly rejected absentees.

MNLatteLiberal said...

@green libertarian:
I really dunno. Honestly. I posted one item under the new alter ego, drich commented something along the lines "glad to see you back" and voila! Just because I am paranoid, doesn't mean the overzealous ztrib mod isn't out to get me. Maybe he likes me, I mean, really, really likes me. I am at a loss there. I am now down to two caffeinated monikers: mocha moderate and cappuccino conservative. The latter does have its charm, I'll admit, but it's too long for Strib. Then there's pinot progressive, but that too is...but we digress. Back to the

BugBoy,
Now you are just plain being silly. You link to the article referenced in my citation. Both claim that no ballots were left in the trunk overnight. And not in the Franken-leaning trunk, at that, please note. Both claim that the ballots were left overnight in a city hall safe. Is it the automotive element of ballot transfer that you object to or find questionable? Well, then, you ought to know that is how ALL the absentee ballots are processed: they are received in a central county location and then brought over in election judge's or official designate vehicle to the appropriate precinct for counting. State mandated process. Not fraud. Fine line, I know, but try to focus.

What's that you say? You don't like the way the votes broke along the Coleman/Franken lines in those absentee ballots? Well, that's just too bad. I know, I know, it sucks, sometimes the reality is just PLAIN WRONG! Sometimes reality has a real liberal bias. That damned electorate. How dare the Minneapolis inner city vote predominantly against Coleman?! Why, that just cannot be. Conspiracy, I cry!

Am I close? Or do you have something in a way of a citation, link or reference? At least go through the trouble of finding some WSJ guest editorial. I think if you link to that, it might fly. I just know it can! After all, WSJ is such a respected publication, you might be able to hoodwink all the libs into not seeing the editorial part.

"Honestly, Mr. Burns, you just don't put the same effort into your schemes, you used to!" - Waylan Smithers.

And your conclusion that Coleman must be honest because he is inept at cheating is nothing short of precious. He is a liar, but a BAD liar. Just because you finish second in a race does not automatically mean you weren't doping. It just means if you did, you did it poorly. See the diff?
Coleman might or might not have cheated, the jury is still out. But to claim that he didn't cheat because he wore bunny slippers or brought a knife to a gun fight is...well, republican logic.

Carry on, Bug. I look to more greatness from your posts, and I know you'd hate to disappoint. Meanwhile, link por favor.

~ Latte

Bug said...

"The overall recount tended toward Franken for several very well-established reasons."

Yeah, he's been cheating.


"There were more F voters and precincts who screwed up ballots (e.g. x's instead of ovals) in ways that could still be counted by hand. That's very typical because there are more D voters at the uneducated end (also at the educated end) of the spectrum and D precincts tend to be crowded and hurried."

Now that's just partisan bullshit. Not to mention the LAMEST excuse in the whole mess.

"Both claim that no ballots were left in the trunk overnight"

Now you are moving the goal post to fit your situation. As if the key to this were "overnight" and not the statistical anomaly of Franken votes.

And if you have evidence of Coleman being a liar, then kindly provide a link. There's too much evidence that Franken is a liar.

Honest Pal,
Bugboy

MNLatteLiberal said...

...And if you have evidence of Franken being a liar, then kindly provide a link. There's too much evidence that Coleman is a liar.

Bug, the public is patiently waiting for a link (or two) from you. TIA, troll.

~ Latte

MNLatteLiberal said...

Wait, wait, was this aimed to moi:

"Both claim that no ballots were
left in the trunk overnight"

"Now you are moving the goal post to fit your situation. As if the key to this were "overnight" and not the statistical anomaly of Franken votes."

??
Was it or wasn't it? Bug, at the very least you ought to be clear whom and what you are addressing.

Regarding the goal post:
The ballots in the trunk story that Coleman, Pawlenty and the rest of the merry GOP gang were pitching to the media had the ballots staying in a car unattended overnight. So, unless you are in a possession of some other ballots in the trunk story, the goal lines remain in the same place, Bug. Fear not. Immovable objects, they. Address the substance. Kindly. Honestly. Pal-like.

And while you are at it, kindly explain what you mean by "statistical anomaly" in light of the way the entire precinct broke that night. There are many precincts in Hennepin County where Franken votes outpaced Coleman's by better than 2:1 margin. Brooklyn Park 27/300, for example, on the SoS official spreadsheet has Al getting 563 votes to Coleman 152. Even in fairly well-to-do Bloomington there a couple with a better than 2:1 margin. Before you panic, here is a link .

Now, kindly post yours. I kindly ask you to kindly post your sources yet again. Kindly.

~ Latte

Bug said...

"Now, kindly post yours"

I already did.

Pals,
BUgboy

MNLatteLiberal said...

Muffin, suddenly you are precious penurious with words. This is not the time to clam up!

"I already did".

When? Where? Did I miss it? A link to Franken fraud? Or was it to the Canvassing Board shenanigans? I know, I am asking for the impossible, but kindly link me to your sources of foul play.

Secondly, now that I took the time to explain to you how there is no "statistical anomaly" in the 32 vote distribution of those Hennepin ballots, now that I've taken the time to explain to you that there is no need to fear the automotive ballot conspiracy, that the automobile is solely a means for ballot transport, now that all that has taken place:

1) Do you have any further questions or issues in that regard, and if so, kindly state them and
2) If not, are you going to be a BugMan and concede the point(s)?
3) (this is almost a post-scriptum) I expect no gratitude or apology, so fret not on that behalf. But if you do decide on something along those lines, I'll see what I can do in terms of organizing a group hug for the bug.

Carry on,
~ Latte, all-a-tither in antici..................................................
(say it)......
..........pation

lojasmo said...

Bug

Never forget: reality has a liberal bias

Bug said...

I've already stated the things you mentioned, MNFatteLiberal. If you were at all concerned about facts, instead of merely the small-mindedness of winning elections, they wouldn't have all gone over your head.

Pals still?
Bugboy

(FACT of the DAY: addresses are on the outside of envelopes)

Bug said...

So you are saying Dan Rather's new nickname is Reality?

Bogbuy

MNLatteLiberal said...

I am confused, Bugboy, do you want to hurl invective and twist lattes into fatties or do you want to be pals?

Do you want to stick to the issues or would you rather point fingers regarding small mindedness?

This is not about winning the elections: a) the election is ALREADY won and b)nothing you or I say here will have or would have had ANY effect on the elections outcome. If you are unclear on either one of those, let me know, I will be happy to 'splain something to ya.

Now, back to my request. If you have stated things I have mentioned, if you have acknowledged that you were wrong, link me to that statement. It's easy. Show me where you acknowledge that there is no statistical anomaly in the way your "trunk" ballots broke for Franken. Show me where you admit you were wrong about election fraud and wacky conspiracy theories.

And for the last time, gosh darn it, CITE YOUR SOURCES. You keep going on and on about others posting proof for you, and when they do, you poop either one irrelevancy, or excrete another non-sequitur, while not offering ANY reference as to your lunatic fringe theories.

If you are concerned about the facts, substantiate your wild stories.

I will remind you of my original prediction: bugboy will float some turd about statistical impossibility or law of averages. Congrads, you've now hit 2 out of 4 wingnut talking points, though in an unusually runabout manner.

Let me know when you want to talk facts. Substantiated facts. Until then, carry on palissimo,

~ Latte

mediapost said...

Did you hear Coleman changed his suit? Now he wants all 12,000 reviewed. Even though it's a third time through I say let's review once more and be done with it. We know for sure there are at least 417 that should have been counted (the ones that one or the other campaign rejected from the last review). We also know of one more (1 of Coleman's 654 was found to have been improperly rejected in Mower in the 2nd review). I don't think Franken should fight this... assuming this really is what Coleman is proposing...

Although I guess the board overseeing the case wopuld have to overrule the original MNSC ruling on how to handle absentees in order to make this happen. How would that work?

MNLatteLiberal said...

@mediapost,
yeah, the Strib article to me comes down to two quotes, one from Morrison, a U/MN /election/ law prof and one from Prof. Charles from Duke, both appear at the very end of the 3 page article:

"Morrison thinks the panel, consisting of District Judges Elizabeth Hayden, Kurt Marben and Denise Reilly, will also likely hear Coleman's broader claims. But Morrison added: "My guess is they will say, 'Be specific; don't just ask us to do a general recount,' which is what [Coleman's proposal] sort of looks like."
[emphasis mine]

"What Coleman is trying to do is go through the whole universe of ballots to find more votes, there's no doubt about that," said Duke law Prof. Guy-Uriel Charles, an expert on election law. "I think they are going to press the Coleman camp to really figure out what are the ballots that are in dispute, and to focus on those."

[again, emphasis mine].
The court will not support a fishing expedition. They would want to hear specific objections of the Coleman camp to the specific rejected absentees that recite what specifically CC is objecting to. It is also my hope (it won't happen, but one can still hope :), that the court brings up Trimble's and Coleman's past stances on reviewing the wrongly rejected absentees and asks them for the reason for their frequent changes of mind on the issue.

~ Latte

mediapost said...

@Latte,

PS Your original post on Bugboy was spot on. Well done!!

Bug said...

"I will remind you of my original prediction"

Your original "prediction" was nothing more than proof that you knew the truth but didn't care. Despite OVERWHELMING statistical odds, which no news media has bothered to fairly analyze, you make an argument that is as politically-convenient as it is contrived. And, you top that off with an insincere offer to prove something you (seemingly) do not think exists without at all wondering WHY the media has not provided such an analysis. Yet you and mediapost seem to be fancying yourselves some type of "intellectual" who has mastered this little issue, while at the same time ignoring the elephant in the corner.

Surely as "intellectuals" who have obviously been following the story you should have already read, and have a comeback at hand, for just the statistical analysis you have been asking to have cited.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,461527,00.html

So you lose this debate, and unfortunately, because Franken was a good cheater, Coleman loses the election. Even sadder, mindless partisans don't give a shit.

Your Pal With Cites,
Bugboy

lojasmo said...

Franken cheated because more people voted for him, seriously.

MNLatteLiberal said...

@Bugboy,
"Your original "prediction" was nothing more than proof that you knew the truth but didn't care"

Well, ain't that special?! Bug, are you getting irate? Hey, remember the "X-Files"? Mulder: "The truth is out there". You sound dangerously close to...well...my original prediction.

"And, you top that off with an insincere offer to prove something you (seemingly) do not think exists without at all wondering WHY the media has not provided such an analysis."

Well, where do we start here? Firstly, you ought to learn to express your thoughts better, or at least figure out how to translate them into the written form. That gem of a convoluted sentence has more convolutions than a republican brain. Pals? Still pals? Are we?

But on to the bug juice: you fault me for not wondering why the media had not reported on something that does not exist? Could that be the extent of your desperation here? Is that representative of the Coleman hopefuls these days? If so, we are in for a treat. It ought to be one heck of a concession speech.

Try again, Bug. This time, with feeling. And thought.

Btw, I do not fancy myself an intellectual. I have not mastered the issue; I've simply stayed abreast of the FACTS on the issue. I am not ignoring the elephant in the corner. I dedicate much of my time to cleaning up after said elephant. Hope that clears things up.

Oh, and regarding your statistical analysis source: why didn't you go with WSJ editorial? Why did you go with the FOX NEWS EDITORIAL? I mean, FOX NEWS EDITORIAL? It's not even regular Faux News! It's their editorial, for heaven's sakes! And John Lott Jr? OMG. You really ought to have done your homework, Bugboy, debate winner.

This is not about winning the debate. This is not about winning the election. Geez, you still have no clue what this is about. This is about calling you Republican Smear Dogs on your bullshit. And you, sir, have been called.

Have a lovely day. Still pals?
Carry on,

~ Latte

Opus 132 said...

Latte-

It's good to save a soul once in a while,but apparently Bug doesn't have one.

Bug said...

"you ought to learn to express your thoughts better"

I can't be held responsible for your inability to comprehend what you read. Or for your rather conspicuous irritation at being proven wrong.


"you fault me for not wondering why the media had not reported on something that does not exist?"

Since the issue has been brought up by the Coleman campaign, it is most certainly a valid issue for investigation. Unless, of course, you feel the need to hide something. In a similar fashion you attack the messenger (Lott) for providing the analysis that pretty much cleans your clock on this one.

Ain't that perfect. You beg for a cite to an analysis, as if your request was in good faith, then claim bias on the source. And your proof if the bias? An EDITORIAL on the 538 website which ADMITS to being biased!

Well, looks like I had YOU all figured out from the start on this one LOL!

You can pretend you aren't running from the truth on this issue all you want, but your intellectual dishonesty is now exposed. Along with the Franken camp and the DNC.

You have LOST this debate. You must be embarrassed in front of your fellow 538 readers, considering all of the little numbered arguments you put up which could not even stand the scrutiny of Bugboy.

Your Clock Cleaning Pal,\
Bugboy

(from Georgia, no less)

mediapost said...

Our long national nightmare is now over!!

Bug said...

"Our long national nightmare is now over!!"

No, I'm still here. And still cleaning clocks.

Tick Tock Pal,
Bugboy

green libertarian said...

Bug's an idiot troll, everybody quit poking at it, it's stinking up the joint.

I remind you:


On November 12, 2008, Author Editor Eric Ferguson says:

Thank you David. However David, and you other commenters who think this will bring this particular misunderstanding to an end, no it won't. I cannot believe that all these Republican lawyers, and Tim Pawlenty himself, are as ignorant of election procedures as they pretend. Most commenters on news sites just can't be bothered to check out facts or they assume anything that contradicts Fox is a lie, but Pawlenty and Coleman know full well their charges are nonsense. They won't stop. I just ask that the press avoid making a falsely balanced pretense that both sides are trying to screw things up. Sometimes the truth isn't halfway between.

You watch: conservatives will never drop the ballots in the car story, no matter how false they know it to be.



It is also my hope (it won't happen, but one can still hope :), that the court brings up Trimble's and Coleman's past stances on reviewing the wrongly rejected absentees and asks them for the reason for their frequent changes of mind on the issue.

~ Latte


The Court won't bring it up, but Franken's team will, at just the appropriate opportunity.

Bug said...

GreenLibertarian is apparently an idiot troll too, since there have been several cites provided that the ballots WERE IN FACT in a car.

Pals?

Bugboy

Hannah said...

Prof. Paulsen is well-known around MN law circles as a very conservative Professor; his comments are clearly written from that bias.

As a Minnesotan, I sincerely doubt that a revote will be granted. A revote is a very drastic remedy that no one wants, particularly no one in Minnesota. Frankly, Norm Coleman would be foolish to realistically press for one, since he'd certainly lose resoundingly. Minnesotans would not look kindly on any candidate requesting (let alone receiving) a revote.

I believe that the vast majority of Minnesotans believe our voting system is fair and non-partisan. Minnesota consistently has the highest voting rates in the country, and we take clean voting very seriously. The recount process has appeared unbiased and orderly. There have been no significant criticisms in the state. In fact, Minnesotans have been pretty calm about the whole thing - because we feel that it is all going appropriately. Small irregularities in the process are to be expected, since nothing human is perfect. Overall, the problems that have cropped up have been handled in a timely and fair manner.

I think that barring some wacky judicial decision that invalidates a bunch of votes or something, Minnesotans will be satisfied with whatever result is certified at the end of the process.

MNLatteLiberal said...

Ya know, Bug, one thing you gotta learn, is that your self-imposed insect role is to be an irritant, not irritable. It's a subtle difference, but one you will learn in time to become truly worthy of your chosen moniker.
But this is a sideline. On to the main course:

me: "you ought to learn to express your thoughts better"
Bug: "I can't be held responsible for your inability to comprehend what you read."

Your lack of eloquence, and the downright inability to express your thoughts adequately is what concerns me. Worry not about my inability to comprehend you. I was still able to cut through the tangled vines of your twisted thought. My concern is about others, an altruist that I am. This is not about me. This is about you. If you want to spew lies, at least learn to do it in a manner where the lies are readable. Just free advice. Pro bono. And nobody held you responsible for anything, save for the lies you utter.

Bug: "Or for your rather conspicuous irritation at being proven wrong."

Conspicuous by its absence? You are once again confusing your being irritable with your desire to be an irritant. You have failed to be an irritant, but you have succeeded in fading into the backdrop of the rest of the lies and the lying liars who tell them. There is no longer anything original about you and your inability to face the facts. But we digress. Where were we? Oh yeah: (btw, see how I take care to delineate the text? That's 'cause I CARE about my reader. I urge you to start caring about your reader
as well, and to show that care by parsing the text appropriately. Another aside, but you will forgive an old man, right, pal?)

me: "you fault me for not wondering why the media had not reported on something that does not exist?"

Bug: "Since the issue has been brought up by the Coleman campaign, it is most certainly a valid
issue for investigation. Unless, of course, you feel the need to hide something."


Over the course of the recount, Coleman campaign has brought up a great deal of things from which they have since completely divorced themselves. To wit, they have backed away (in no apparent chronological order):
a)their calls to concede,
b) their calls to start healing,
c) their statement that Coleman would concede, given a similar gap,
d)not to revisit the wrongly rejected absentee ballots,
e)to revisit only some of the wrongly rejected absentee ballots,
f) calling challenges to the missing original/duplicate frivolous and so on.

So, to take up a banner d'jour brandished about by FORMER Sen. Coleman would risk
going against him. Not to mention the fact, that faulting me for not taking Coleman at his word is even more disingenuous than if I asked you to take Franken campaign at its word. See that? No?

Lemme illustrate: Franken campaign called on the judge panel to dismiss the Coleman suit. You ought to be calling for that too, unless you...how does that go? Oh yeah "Since the issue has been brought up by the Franken campaign, it is most certainly a valid issue for investigation. Unless, of course, you feel the need to hide something." Why are you, Bug, not calling for Coleman to drop his contest challenge? What, sir, are you hiding, oh pal of mine?

Bug: "In a similar fashion you attack the messenger (Lott) for providing the analysis that pretty much cleans your clock on this one. Ain't that perfect. You beg for a cite to an analysis, as if your request was in good faith, then claim bias on the source. And your proof if the bias? An EDITORIAL on the 538 website which ADMITS to being biased! Well, looks like I had YOU all figured out from the start on this one LOL! You can pretend you aren't running from the truth on this issue all you want,
but your intellectual dishonesty is now exposed."



I take back that “silliest” comment from yesterday. This is far sillier. No, on the second thought, I do not take it back. You are just getting sillier and sillier, you silly goose, and it is getting hard to keep track of the relative silliness of your statements from one day to the next. To wit, let us re-examine the frilly sequins of events:

1) I urge you to cite your sources
2) you cite Faux News editorial
3) by summarily discredited John Lott, Jr. no less
4) and when I respond with a similar editorial that STATES FACTS about said Lott's sloppy work, you
5) cry foul because I cited something you ought to find at least similar to your source. And
6) all the meanwhile, you see no hypocricy of your stance.

Remarkable! Even more remarkable, because you are doing this not on Faux News ediotorial pages, but in Nate's very home.

7) To sum up: Nate is a golden standard of policical analysis, whereas John Lott, Jr. is a proven political hack.

You feel no issue citing one editorial by an author proven to be no friend of facts, while pointing a finger at others for citing what is in your opinion another. Hey, I understand there might be openings for a mouthpiece (or some other orifice of choice) in the GOP machine now that Snow is dead, MCcLellan is singing and Perino no wanna work no more.

Your very quoting of a Faux News editorial is so pathetic that it really warranted to response from me. You might as well cite Sarah Palin or Dan Quayle, however he spells his name. Faux News is not a valid source. Faux News Editorial is something that cannot meet even the highbrow Faux standard. Ya know, Rachel Maddow says...Ya know, Keith Olbermann stated... - you see? And MSNBC is FAR more credible of a news source than the fair and balanced disinformation machine of the GOP.


Bug: " Along with the Franken camp and the DNC. You have LOST this debate.

Bug, this was no debate. This was a group squashing of a bug despite my pleadings to spare the poor troll. I predicted your moves after your initial post. How can you even call that a debate? You have much to learn, grasshopper.


"You must be embarrassed in front of your fellow 538 readers, considering all of the little
numbered arguments you put up which could not even stand the scrutiny of Bugboy."


You continue to have these delusions of grandeur, and I am not sure why. It was you who chose the name "bug" for yourself, not any of us here. I am not sure what the scrutiny of a Bugboy is other than a loose screw here and there. And most importantly, returning to your delusions: if you think there is more than 3-4 people still reading this dead thread,you are a bigger egotist than I am, and are thus unworthy of a self-deprecating moniker of bug.

Bug: "Your Clock Cleaning Pal,\
Bugboy

(from Georgia, no less)"


I wouldn't care even if you were from the glorious Republic of Kazakhstan.
Btw, you have yet to cite a credible source that shows there was fraud or any statistical shenanigans. Calling shenanigans a la South Park does not count. Sorry. Pal.

Hey, is your "pal" short for "palin"?
Your BFF,
~ Latte
And oh, yeah, carry on.

PS: btw, what is your affliction with the auto phobia? The GOP bunk was not that the ballots were in the car, (I am repeating this for the third time because apparently, it takes that long to penetrate a closed mind), the GOP beef was that the ballots spent many a night in a trunk of a car belonging to a Franken backer unattended The issue was never the car, and as the source I cited stated: molecular beam transport has not yet been invented. And even when *GASP* Coleman won in 2002, the absentee ballots had been transported by automobiles. Is it the invention of the wheel that bothers you or the Global Warming due to the internal combustion engine inside the aforementioned vehicle?

Curious minds wanna know!

mediapost said...

Can anyone understand what Knaak wants with regards to the 12,000 absentees? The first paragraph seems to indicate that he wants the 12,000 looked at one more time, the 2nd paragraph seems to indicate that he wants to include some proplerly rejected ballots. Maybe it's just a misstatement. 2 paragraphs below:

"Obviously, not every one of the 12,000 rejected absentee ballots was wrongfully rejected. However, those that were - those that were rejected through no fault of the voter - and conform to the laws of this state as to voting requirements, voter eligibility and voter intent - we believe those ballots must be opened."

"In other words: If the absentee voter was alive on Election Day, was either a registered voter or included a registration card with his or her ballot, and did not otherwise vote, then his or her absentee ballot should be counted -- if the voter's intent can be determined from the ballot. And I'll say that again: If the absentee voter was alive on Election Day, was either a registered voter or included a registration card with his or her ballot, and did not otherwise vote, then his or her absentee ballot should be counted -- if the voter's intent can be determined from the ballot."

MNLatteLiberal said...

blogger ate my comment! darn it.

@ mediapost:
Disclaimer: I do not claim to understand the inner workings of Knaak's mind or his wants and desires, save to advance his client at any cost, and failing that, to prolong the agony of the MN voters.

Having said that, one item that is conspicuous by its absence is the signature requirement. Of the Knaak-picked 654 rejected absentees, there seemed to be a number of rejections due to either invalid witnessing, wrong/mismatched signature and absent signature altogether.

It appears that Knaak and Co finally decided to cast a wider sweep for votes as their new strategy, and their hope now hangs on obfuscating the issue with handwriting experts/analysis/testimony. That will help them drag this puppy out, and failing analysis of signatures, claim equal protection violation and take this to the Feds.

All imho, of course.
~ Latte

wv: debil. I kid you not. These wingut debils keep posting from lunatic fringe, citing Faux News editorials as legit source.

mediapost said...

Actually, the more I read Knaak's statement the more it sounds like he wants properly rejected absentees to be counted. I took for granted when I saw the clause "and conform to the laws of this state" that he was referring to the 4 criteria for rejecting absentees, but he qualifies that clause with "as to voting requirements, voter eligibility and voter intent".

I think you are right on Latte.

Can you imagine the howls of protest that Franken would have faced from the Coleman people if he had suggested this same thing back in November?

green libertarian said...

There are certainly more than 4 reasons under MN law to reject and absentee envelope, once you consider the law states that voters must follow the absentee instructions.

For example, the need to have a witness signature is never mention is the supposed four valid reasons for rejecting an AE, yet we know hundreds of AEs were rejected due to witness signature issues.

Coleman's own team rejected the AE of an election judge in Duluth who said she voted FOR Coleman, on the basis that the witness date and voter date written on the envelope did not match.

Meanwhile, other jurisdictions, completely ignored the issue of the date matching.

ABowers said...

Franken's lawyers state that NOBODY seems to know what Coleman's lawyers really want. First Coleman only wants to look at 600+ cherry picked ballots. Then he want to look at 11,000 or 12,000 and states there are at least 6,000 that should be counted.
But when he lists the criteria for rejecting absentee ballots, he omits the requirement for a signature that matches the voter registration and the requirement that the address match the registration. Some of the 600+ that were looked at a third time by the local officials were rejected a third time because they lacked any signature. BUT they were from ANOKA county that went for Coleman.
His lawyers must have finally realized they are in a hopeless situation - He loses on the "lost ballots" and "duplicate ballots" and probably on Franken adding 64 more absentee votes. So he MUST find more votes and the only pile left are the rejected absentee ballots. Unfortunately for him, he will probably lose on the idea of taking a third look at the rejected ballots and absentee ballots favor Franken so he cannot make up votes anyway. The only real question is how long can Coleman drag this out.
The only thing Bugboy gets right is that Coleman loses.

Michael (mbw) said...

I went Googling for an explicit statement of MN absentee law, and turned up, inter alia, the following quote from a very right-wing web site, PowerLine:

"Until yesterday, the Coleman campaign sought the inclusion only of other absentee ballots it claimed had been improperly excluded by local officials. Prior to the election contest, the Coleman campaign had no problem with the requirements imposed by Minnesota's absentee ballot statute. Now the requirements of Minnesota law are unfair! They are an impediment to equal protection.

Knaak's statement is frankly ludicrous. It is nevertheless consistent with the Three Stooges quality of the work of the Coleman campaign following the canvas that has brought Senator Coleman to his current pass."

That's Powerline writing! Why is Coleman pursuing this?

Bug said...

"you cite Faux News editorial"

Lott is NOT discredited. His only crime? Same as mine--proving you WRONG.

Plus it was not an editorial. It was an "opinion" piece by a research scientist.

You still have not be unable3 to refute EVEN ONE of my points, Fatte. I love seeing you squirm when presented with the facts and then you respond with NOTHING but a cognitive argument LOL.

Mocha Pals?
Bugboy

MNLatteLiberal said...

Lame, Bugboy, lame.
You take a single quote of mine out of a page and a half of proving your wrong. Point by point. You put a "opinion" lipstick on the Faux News pig I called an editorial, as if THAT somehow makes it more palatable. You fail to address any of my points, you fail to give any links, save for the Faux News OPINION by a discredited (read the link to the 538 discussion detailing all the FACTS your "research scientist" got wrong.)

I call you out on your hypocrisy; you choose to ignore that. I call you on your difficulty with statistics; you ignore that. I call you on your issues with internal combustion engines and the advent of a wheel; you have nothing to say.

I will say it again, and will continue to do so: give me a valid citation PROVING fraud. With facts. Not nebulously asserting it. Not implying it. Stating facts, not waving hands. Because us, research scientists, that's what we believe in. The saying goes "in God we trust; all the rest bring data".

Quit flailing your crippled extremities, Bug and cite FACTUAL EVIDENCE.

BFF, fer sure. As soon as you start answering my questions. Like, is your "pal" short for palin? Oh, and don't forget to bring data with you next post.
Carry on, master debater. LMAO.
~ Latte.

MNLatteLiberal said...

errata:
an "opinion" lipstick (that was mine)
and

...discredited (blah blah blah) windbag.

It is the windbag that got chewed up in the post somehow. I claim no credit for the aforementioned bad o'wind.

Bug said...

Hey Fatte...you never proved the case that Lott was discredited because YOU CAN'T. I therefore had a valid cite that discredited YOU LOL.

Cite Pal,
Bugboy

green libertarian said...

Latte, my friend, I've never understood the compulsion to feed such nasty trolls. Seriously, consider the concept of conservation of energy, at the very least.

This idiot ain't worth your considered opinion.

There ARE some very limited points to Coleman's argument. This vile TROLL is not arguing such.

Peace be with you.

Bug said...

Hey Green Librarian....vile? troll? Why so bitter? All I'm doing is stating a case. Why all the bitter ad hominems? I'm arguing the merits of an issue.

Ever since I came here I've noticed that just for taking and arguing a contrary position people have been attacking ME! Psychologically, it means I hit a nerve b/c these people know their positions are tenuous at best and instead of pursuing the truth they just want "their guy" to win.

Look at Fatte's over-reactions. My lord.

New Pal?
Bugboy

MNLatteLiberal said...

News is breaking about Harry Reid growing a pair and convening Senate Dems to provisionally seat Franken. Just heard it on NPR.

Also, watched the streaming video of the Franken motion to dismiss to Coleman suit. Going in, I didn't think Franken had much of a chance on that one, but his attorney did present several compelling arguments in parallel. If any single one of them captures the panel's triple heart, whoosh goes Coleman. No word on when the ruling is expected.

@green libertarian,
I am a sick puppy. I enjoy the crunchy sound of a crushed exoskeleton. And who knows, some day an ugly insect could turn into a beautiful, although an ephemeral butterfly.

@Bugboy,
Let me put it in the kindergarten terms you'll understand:
By not countering ANY of my points with your arguments, I take it you have no rebuttal. I therefore, in my infinite kindness and generosity accept your total and unequivocal surrender.
And for the record, I am NOT fat. I am big-boned.
Carry on,
~ Latte

MNLatteLiberal said...

oh, and
here is
the hatchet job of journalism (look at the first paragraph) from allegedly liberal-leaning Star Tribune (that endorsed Coleman, as we all know) reporting the Senate Dems moving to seat our Senator Al Franken.
~ Latte

Bug said...

"By not countering ANY of my points with your arguments, I take it you have no rebuttal"

Now that's just sad.

Winning Pal,
Bugboy

(the Lott link sealed the deal).

信次 said...

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