1.11.2009

Intellectual Dishonesty (Gasp!) from a Conservative Economist

I've referred you guys to Greg Mankiw on a couple of different occasions. He is a highly-respected economist at Harvard University who was the head of the outgoing President Bush's Council of Economic Advisers. Mankiw is a pretty good benchmark for "smart" conservative economic thought -- which, being a University of Chicago economics grad, I have a healthy degree of respect for. If Mankiw's article in today's New York Times is any indication, however, the conservatives are out of good reasons for opposing Barack Obama's stimulus.

The main problem with Mankiw's article is this:

MIGHT TAX CUTS BE MORE POTENT? Textbook Keynesian theory says that tax cuts are less potent than spending increases for stimulating an economy. When the government spends a dollar, the dollar is spent. When the government gives a household a dollar back in taxes, the dollar might be saved, which does not add to aggregate demand.

The evidence, however, is hard to square with the theory. A recent study by Christina D. Romer and David H. Romer, then economists at the University of California, Berkeley, finds that a dollar of tax cuts raises the G.D.P. by about $3. According to the Romers, the multiplier for tax cuts is more than twice what Professor Ramey finds for spending increases.

Why this is so remains a puzzle. One can easily conjecture about what the textbook theory leaves out, but it will take more research to sort things out. And whether these results based on historical data apply to our current extraordinary circumstances is open to debate.

Christina Romer, incidentally, has been chosen as the chairwoman of the Council of Economic Advisers in the new administration. Perhaps this fact helps explain why, according to recent reports, tax cuts will be a larger piece of the Obama recovery plan than was previously expected.
The paper (.pdf) Mankiw refers to, written by Berkley Economists Christina and David Romer, is the sort of thing that will make your head spin. But the gist of it is that (i) It is very important to differentiate the motivation for different types of tax cuts or tax increases, and (ii) a certain type of tax cut or tax increase may have a much larger effect on growth than is generally acknowledged.

The type of tax cut that Romer and Romer think falls into this category is what they call an "exogenous" tax cut -- one designed not to counter business cycles, but rather a "spontaneous" tax cut under relatively healthy economic circumstances.

This is very much not the type of tax cut that we are contemplating right now. Instead, what is being contemplated is a countercyclical action in an unhealthy economy designed to return the economy to normal growth. Romer and Romer are not all that keen on this type of tax cut; in fact, they argue that such "countercyclical fiscal policy is not achieving its intended purpose," and that "policymakers’ efforts to adjust taxes to offset anticipated changes in private
economic activity have been largely unsuccessful". You might also have inferred this from the fact that Christina Romer, who is the chair of Barack Obama's incoming Council of Economic Advisers, released an impact assessment (.pdf) yesterday positing a much lower multiplier on a "stimulative"/countercyclical tax cut.

This is not a trivial detail. It's as if Mankiw had said...

"A new study has shown that cholesterol can actually reduce your risk of a heart attack! So stop for a Triple Whopper Value Meal on your way home -- and don't forget to supersize it!"

...but omitted the fact that the study was referring only to HDL ("good") cholesterol -- not the LDL ("bad") cholesterol likely to be found in abundance in your Value Meal.

The thing is that's really irksome is that Mankiw should know a lot better. This is not some random blogger at Townhall trying to parse a difficult economics paper and overlooking an important point of context -- this is one of the premier economists in the world. He knows very well what the Romer and Romer paper says -- and he's made a deliberate choice to misrepresent it.

In poker terms, this is what we'd call a "tell". Mankiw doesn't have anything. He's bluffing. Out of ideas. Taking one for the team, and touting the party line for shits and giggles. Except, this isn't exactly fun and games, and Mankiw should leave the discussions to people who are serious about getting our economy moving again.

112 comments

DaWolf said...

I always love it when Nate smacks someone down. Although frankly in this case I'm taking it on trust that he's right (has been so far :) )

Candle In The Dark said...

Ideology can drive an otherwise rational person to destroy the very thing he supposedly loves... some conservatives would rather see the country suffer than let people see someone else help it....

Ryan Hooper said...

Careful thought like this is why this is the best political blog out there.

Let's hope Mankiw offers a response.

flubber said...

Well done Nate. Paul Krugman made a similar point in his blog in recent days about the necessity for honest fact based arguments. I quote:

"Kudos, by the way, to the administration-in-waiting for providing this — it will be a joy to argue policy with an administration that provides comprehensible, honest reports, not case studies in how to lie with statistics."

Why is the right so afraid of the truth?

It hampers us in confronting problems and coming up with effective solutions. This applies across the board - from overcoming the economic crisis to acknowledging huge problems in the behavior of Israel and its effect on conflict in the Middle East.

sarasotajoe said...

So Nate, what would it take to get your rebuttal printed in the Times?

WCG said...

I agree, Ryan. Nate does a superb job here. I'm always just blown away by the quality of this blog.

Jeffrey said...

I posted a comment on Krugman's blog asking about this (said comment is still awaiting moderation)--it smelled fishy, but I couldn't quite figure out why. Thanks for the explication.

Dan said...

With all due respect, Nate, I think your criticism is valid, but Krugman does this sort of thing all the time, too, just from the other side.

harold said...

Nate -

There's a bigger issue of intellectual dishonesty here.

Once again, conservatives talk about tax "cuts" or "lower" taxes as if that always meant the same thing, regardless of level of taxation before cut, regardless of whose taxes are cut, and regardless of which type of tax is being cut.

It makes a much sense as implying that "losing weight" is always a good thing, regardless of the context.

Taken to its logical conclusion, the idea that "tax cuts" are always beneficial, if true, would mean that taxes should be cut to zero immediately. After all, if a tax "cut" is always good regardless of level or type of taxes, it simply follows that no tax can ever be beneficial. How can it be if it's always good to "cut" it?

Nate, why do you still respect the Friedman school of economics?

It's clearly been proven wrong, to the extent that anything can be proven in economics.

The model applied in Western Europe, Canada, Australia, developed Asia, and yes, here in the US, of markets supported by regulations for the common good and a social safety net, is what works.

Many of the world's worst and most wrong ideas have been held by people who are very "smart" on an individual level, but they are still wrong ideas.

Full disclosure - I have an MBA in finance and stats myself, as well as an advanced biomedical background, and I am currently developing a start-up company. I am by no means "anti-capitalist". It's a question of how capitalist/market societies function most sustainably and humanely.

Josh said...

Seriously Nate, where have you been all these years the Dams a clear coherent explanation about why our tax policy makes more sense. Keep up the good work.

AJF said...

Dan, that is truly rich - accusing Krugman of intellectual dishonesty without providing a lick of evidence.

KevinF said...

Nice job, Nate.

It should also be noted that Mankiw's books are used in universities across the nation. I had them at the UW (Seattle) in 2003/2004.

Many people who have to take basic econ classes as part of a non-econ degree (like myself) may have had their entire Econ education from Mankiw. I thought his books were biased, but I didn't learn who he was until his appointment by Bush. (What a success that was.)

John Emerson said...

With all due respect, it's not a good idea to expect much honesty from conservative economists, especially the Chicago school. They're ideologues who have an undue importance in the modern world because they say the things the Wall Street Journal types want to hear. It doesn't really make any difference how smart they are; probably the smarter they are, the more destructive they are.

STepper said...

Since Bush 43 only hires loyal clackies (Scott McClellan and Colin Powell to the contrary, but W learnt his lesson), why am I not surprised that Mankiw is the handmaiden of the conservative right.

Mankiw just wants to get government smaller, and will lie, cheat, and manipulate statistics to help his conservative cronies get their way.

Seeing what shape the economy is in right now, with Mankiw at the helm, all I can think of is "Great job, Brownie."

By the way, Nate, BHO has been elected so the Electoral Vote on the left of the page is no longer "Provisional." It's "Actual."

John said...

Nate:

Given that no fiscal stimulus package of spending in the last 100 years has been shown to improve the economy, what kind of intellectually honest ground is anyone on here?

The only thing this spending is good for is politician claiming credit. There's no proof this will help in the long term any more than the rebate checks did last year.

Even if it does help in the short run -- which is dubious -- there's no proof that the long-term cost of borrowing the money isn't a net negative.

Derek said...

First off Nate should run for senate.

Second off, it only makes total sense that a tax cut, for the most part, wouldn't do much for the "mental recession" we are in at the moment. paying 1 percent lower taxes on this or that doesn't make me feel secure about my job, my plummeting house price, my dwindling 401k etc. and thus I will most likely just pay ooff debt I already have, or save it for when the worstcomes.

The government needs to focus on keeping people in homes, creating jobs, and restoring Amreica's blind will to spend money.

Michael (mbw) said...

Great post.

alexw said...

page 3 of the Romers' paper:
"The changes taken to achieve or maintain normal growth,
which for want of a better term we call endogenous, are likely to lead to biased estimates of the effects of fiscal policy. The changes not motivated by current or projected economic conditions, which we call
exogenous, are appropriate for measuring the effects of tax changes on output."

It's not like he's cherrypicking the wrong result though: he's reporting the tax multiplier the paper gives. All the literature on government spending focus on exogenous changes as well.

6p010536bc29f3970b said...

When I was an econ major in the late 80s/early 90s, we would be amazed at the concept of Laffer Curve/Supply Side Economics and the fact that Republicans think you get a massive surge by cutting rates 2%. It's true that if you're income tax rates are 80% and you cut to 30%, you will get a huge surge as the incentives are there and people do go out and work harder and spend more. Also, a lot of black-market labor (cash, under the table stuff) that was previously off-books to minimize taxes goes on-book. But, Republicans always forget that important detail - Laffer Curve economics depends on massive rate cuts, and was a theory based strictly on that. It may be valid when cutting 20-30 points off of the tax rate. It's certainly not valid when cutting 2-5 points off of a rate.

Michael said...

Nate,

Thanks for the incisive post. I don't remember who the quote is attributed to, but it goes something like, "..yes, you are entitled to your own opinion. You are not, however, entitled to your own facts."

The great strength of the Conservative/Republican political and financial movement of the last 14 years is their ability to frame the argument on THEIR terms. It is only through a return to real critical thought/debate based on real data/provable information that we can actually seek to improve the entirety of our current problems.

Thanks for calling bullshit on Mr. Mankiw. We need more pushback against this kind of "credentialed misinformation". Too many experts are little more than shills for their ideological doctrine. Way to go.

Brendan said...

You don't "super-size" a Whopper meal. Super-sizing is a McDonald's thing. You *King-size* at Burger King.

kxMxON9.pcEhM_DgWM.H.kPCxpArPG4X said...

Obviously tax cuts do produce spending, when the recipient has unmet needs, which is why a middle class tax cut makes sense.
Cutting taxes for someone with no unmet needs, say someone in the top 1% of the economic spectrum, means the money will be invested, not spent. And while that does appear to increase the pool of money available for investment, it also reduces the pool of money available for investment by the exact same dollar amount if the government is running a deficit and has to issue Treasury Bonds to finance the tax cut. Even if the government is running a surplus, if the money used to finance a tax cut for the wealthy would have been used to retire debt, it produces the same zero effect.
So tax cuts for the wealthy have zero effect on the economy if the government holds debt.
One could argue that the only effect tax cuts for the wealthy actually have is to increase the National Debt, so there is actually a harmful effect on the economy caused by the increased debt overhang.

The Bush tax cuts, geared heavily towards the top 1%, produced very little in the way of actual economic growth, but did substantially increase the national debt.

Lets hope Obama can gear his tax cuts to where they will produce spending, and puts tax increases where the net effect will be to reduce debt.

Alex said...

Actually, Burger King's size options are now Small, Medium and Large, believe it or not! I was shocked to see that last time I ordered a Whopper meal.

jampacked said...

Kudos Nate, another excellent post. Seeing as how Obama seems to have a good grasp of economics (as evidenced by the paper they released) I am once again led to believe that the amount of stimulus devoted to tax cuts can only go down from the 300 billion figure now quoted. Keep up the great economics posts, it is really gripping stuff and, unlike Krugman, you can use phrases like "shits and giggles" which always make my day merrier.

Jake formerly of the LP said...

Good econ geek post. Like others, when I was first introduced to the Laffer Curve in frosh Econ 101 in 1992, I found it to make little sense at the time, and since I've evolved into adulthodd, realize that it is self-justifying bullsh*t by rich folks who have never had real jobs or economic troubles.

The cynicism that right-wing economists have is disgusting. They just think they can throw this "less taxes" against a wall and have it stick. And there is little given from these people on the resulting effects of low taxes/ regulation- such as price of unregulated necessities like health care going up, or choices that are limited due to a lack of safety net.

What is needed is people to WORK and get income through work. There also needs to be efforts made to help- states and localities provide the safety nets so people are not stuck in sub-optimal jobs or drop out of the work force because they stand to lose benefits if they work for Wal-mart part-time. Any stimulus package needs to take care of these priorities first and foremost.

Hayford Peirce said...

A nice comment by Nate, and thanks for the call on the intellectual dishonesty involved.

But before everyone else here gets their knickers in a knot about it, however, let me say that I just checked my print edition of today's New York Times and I'd like to point out two salient facts:

1.) Mankiw's article does NOT appear in the News in Review section, which contains the op-ed articles, the regular columnists such as Paul Krugman and Frank Rich, and the editorials and which is, I would imagine, the single most influential part of the entire paper.

2.) It is buried on page 6 of the Sunday Business Section, on the page called Sunday Monday, in a column called Economic View, "Is Government Spending Too Easy An Answer". And it is way down at the bottom of the article, almost a throw-away paragraph. I've glanced through the article and, trust me on this, very few people are going to get to that part in the first place and/or pay much attention to it when they do get there.

In other words, yeah, sure Gregory Mankiw is an intellectual whore, but it's not as if he's going to make much difference about anything, or at least not with this particular "insight" by him....

Hayford Peirce said...

In my comment above, part 2.) should begin: "It is buried on page 6 of the Sunday Business Section, on the page called Sunday Money," NOT "Sunday Monday"....

nikip5555 said...

Nate, how do we get this in the NYT next to Mankiw's article? When someone like Mankiw is misrepresenting key information, everyone needs to know about it. (Ditto if Krugman or anyone else were to do so!)

It still amazes me that respected, supposedly credentialed people get away with this sort of thing. Don't they worry that they will be exposed and their reputations ruined? If they had tried to pull a stunt like this on their thesis supervisor, they'd have been slapped down in a heartbeat... yet they have no qualms pulling it on the world at large on crucial issues. Even more amazing, the "big lie" approach seems to carry them through unscathed. Oy...

Juris said...

@Hayford: While your basic point is well taken, it's also true that the RW press will magnify the argument and likely say that this is an op ed published in the NYT. So where it appears within the paper is less important in the larger public discourse than that it appeared at all -- and was written by Mankiw and published in the Times.

(These days, I would estimate that far more people read predigested summaries of news and opinions -- or find links to the original stories -- by scannng blogs than actually read the originals in their original format. Not to mention, where things may appear in the print edition may not mattr much.)

Rack said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Rack said...

To add to this, there's a very interesting Orszag article about tax rates during economic slowdowns. Interestingly enough, it may be better to raise taxes on certain income groups (the wealthy) when the economy is slowing down in order to reduce the deficit, which is what Obama's original tax plan was going to do. I forgot the link to the actual article, but here's a summary: http://www.seattleweekly.com/2008-12-24/news/should-we-tax-our-way-out-of-recession/ . John McCain's claim about raising taxes during a recession was bunk. However, It should be clear to everyone by now that any "fact" repeated by a conservative is probably not true.

sunnysteve said...

kxMx...makes the critical point that what matters most is who gets the tax cut. The best policy in both the short and long term would be to immediately introduce the tax plan presented in the Obama campaign: cuts for earners under $250,000 and offsetting increases for earners over $250,000 --- a budget neutral stimulus.

Also critical is for the fiscal stimulus to include federal transfers to state and local govts to offset tax revenue losses that will otherwise result in layoffs of state and local govt workers and cuts in public service spending at these levels. A job saved now has much more impact than a new job created down the line.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

The passage of Christina Romer's paper that Mankiw is least likely to refer to is this (page 21):

"Next, consider the behavior of output following an endogenous tax change. Consistent with the previous results, the estimated impact is small and slow. Output first rises slightly, reaching a maximum of 0.4 percent after two quarters, and then falls gradually to –0.7 percent after twelve quarters. None of the effects are significant; for example, the t-statistic for the maximum impact is –0.9."

For those of you not familiar with statistics, the fact that the t-statistic is larger than the estimated impact of an endogenous tax change indicates its effect is statistically insignificant. But for the sake of intellectual honesty (unlike Mankiw) I'll refer to the following passage as well (page 22):

"Panel (a) of Figure 6 displays the results for the two types of endogenous changes. The results
are striking. Following a spending-driven tax increase, real GDP on average rises moderately, reaching a maximum of 0.7 percent after two quarters (t = 1.5). Thereafter the effect fluctuates irregularly around zero and is always far from significant. Thus looking at how the economy behaves after tax changes driven by spending changes yields estimates of the effects of tax changes that are starkly different from those based on exogenous tax changes. In contrast, the behavior of GDP following countercyclical tax changes is more similar to its behavior following exogenous changes. After hovering around zero for a few quarters, GDP falls steadily, reaching a low of –2.1 percent after nine quarters. For comparison, recall that the maximum impact following an exogenous tax change is –3.0 percent after ten quarters.
Because countercyclical tax changes are uncommon, the behavior of GDP in their wake is not
estimated very precisely. The t-statistic for the estimated effect after nine quarters, for example, is –1.4."

In other words when endogenous tax changes are subdivided into tax changes driven by spending changes and countercyclical tax changes, countercyclical tax changes (the kind being proposed) emerge as having a statisticaly significant effect on output but the impact cannot be precisely measured.

In the final analysis, one should be suspicious when Mankiw chooses to use Romer's own paper against Romer. It just defies common sense (but that evidently is nothing ne to Republicans).

Torrance Stephens - All-Mi-T said...

looks as if there is No end in sight with this downward economy

Jim said...

The world's first and only stand-up economist, Yoram Bauman (check him out at www.standupeconomist.com), has a routine in which he absolutely decimates Mankiw. Bauman has a PhD in economics and knows whereof he speaks.

PaulK said...

Part of the problem is that we are in new territory here. The Romers' paper was dealing with both normal growth periods and normal short term recessions. They did not factor in a frozen credit market, global recession lasting more than a year, and housing taking a beating (at least in the US).
The idea of small tax cuts stimulating GDP growth (or stopping its reduction) is related to consumer confidence. It is not clear that building bridges and roads stimulates consumer confidence, which is the short term issue at play here (and most people worrying about their jobs will not be suddenly working on road construction).
The question is whether a small tax cut (we are talking well less than $100/Mon for most people) addresses fears of job loss, house value, and stability of the company you would be buying a car or other large purchase from?
The Laffer curve is a gross-grained model for a virtual point where taxes impact spending in a normal economy, also matching what Romers were addressing.
It is interesting that even though Christina is on the Obama Econ Advisers, Obama is still proposing these small "stimulus" tax cuts. Are they ignoring her, or does she know something not stated in the published paper?

Mark A. Sadowski said...

@John

Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz and now-CBO director Peter Orszag wrote in late 2001, “Basic economic analysis indicates that increased government expenditures can indeed be stimulative, and, in fact, are often more effective as stimulus measures than tax cuts.” Source:

http://www.cbpp.org/11-27-01tax.pdf

Similarly, two senior Federal Reserve economists found in 2002 that increases in government spending tend to have a greater stimulative effect than tax cuts that have the same cost, because more of the increase in government spending will translate quickly into an increase in total spending in the economy, while a substantial part of a tax cut will generally be saved. Source:

http://ntj.tax.org/wwtax/ntjrec.nsf/3e8c8e4429f19e7785256af4007670d0/9efb293f38940b4285256cc50072cd4b/$FILE/A01.pdf

A good way to assess a stimulus proposal is through its fiscal “bang for the buck” — how much immediate spending boost it would deliver for each dollar it costs. During the debate in 2002-2003 over a stimulus package, economist Mark Zandi of Economy.com evaluated various stimulus options in terms of their effect on the economy in the first year after enactment.

While economic conditions have changed since then, Zandi’s rankings continue to provide a useful assessment of the relative value of various measures in generating economic stimulus. They indicate that temporarily strengthening unemployment insurance is among the most effective forms of stimulus, because most of the additional unemployment benefits would be quickly spent, while a dividend or capital gains tax cut would be among the most ineffective measures because much of it would be saved rather than consumed quickly. Source:

http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2008/10/pocketfull_of_m.html

I could go on citing research evidence contradicting your unsubstantiated claim all day. This is certainly not a mainstream point of view in economics.

Alan said...

Had the pleasure back in 1981 of listening to Professor Laffer give what seemed on the surface to be a compelling speech on the Laffer Curve. His argument as I recall was based largely on the 1961 tax cut supported by President Kennedy, which did indeed result in increased revenues. Hence the Reaganonomist belief that as tax rates decrease, government income increases.

And then he launched into his claim that we need to bring back the gold standard... and he pretty much lost all credibility.

PaulK said...

One note on 'saving' vs. spending of tax cuts: I think many consumers will instead use it to pay down debt. Although the savings rate is poor in this country (but getting better during this downturn), the non-mortgage debt rate is also high. I would think that a fair portion of people would use the extra money to pay down at least credit cards and the like.
This could in fact be a good thing in that it would mean that less of their paycheck would be used for servicing that debt in the future; remember, unlike the Fed gov, consumers get really bad interest rates, so interest payments can be a large portion of their expenditures. Less paid into interest means more for spending on things that help the economy and promote jobs.

dlove said...

Well, at least Greg Mankiw wrote something in response. Not that it addressed Nate's points.

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/01/importance-of-being-exogenous.html

I'm not an economist either, but I am a doctor and Mr. Mankiw's analogy re: doctors ignoring the results of RCT's is apt, just not in the way he intended. If you take the results of an RCT out of context, you get an erroneous result. For instance, if there's evidence that a certain blood pressure medication prevents renal disease in a particular population and you use the med on patients in a different population, you should not expect the same benefit.

With that in mind, I simply don't understand Mankiw's contention that you should only do research on exogenous tax cuts because you can measure them. One might be forgiven for applying to Mr Mankiw the comment that he uses statistics (or research) like a drunk uses a lamppost, for support, not illumination.

hoppie said...

I just want to say that since I've started to read this website, my understanding of polling and economics has really gotten a lot better. It's a welcome middle-ground between information presented for mass comprehension and specialized mumbo-jumbo.

It's so fascinating! I look forward to reading this column every day, and it always delivers. Thank you, Mr. Silver.

michael edelman said...

Mankiw corrects a fundamental error here:

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/01/importance-of-being-exogenous.html

In brief, it's a classic example of the identification problem. More specifically, the Rohmers looked at exogenous changes, because methodologically you cannot separate the effects of non-endogenous policy changes with the events that resulted in that non-endogenous change.

Tom Marlowe said...

As Isaac Asimov once pointed out, the Laffer curve obviously works very well at the ends of the tax rate distribution. If the tax rate is 100% (or higher, as it briefly was for the top bracket in Sweden at one point), it discourages productivity and creativity, and encourages cheating; lowering it results in greater government revenue. At the other end, if the tax rate is 0%, increasing the rate necessarily cannot decrease government revenue. These effects continue for some range of rates--say 100% to 75% and 0% to 10%, respectively. In the middle, however, the response to a change in tax rates is (1) primarily controlled by other variables, (2) non-deterministic, depending on individual motivations and decdisions, and (3) stochastic and possibly chaotic, affected by other decisions and history. Thus, rather than being a wacky theory per se , the Laffer curve is really more a case of unjustified extrapolation.

KAP said...

BAM! ZOOM! To the MOON!

I stood up and cheered at my computer when I read your last sentence. HOORAY for telling it like it is!!

Michael Ewens said...

You have confused why being exogenous is important for the paper's results...identification!

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/01/importance-of-being-exogenous.html

Bram Reichbaum said...

Yeah, I've been saying this for a long time, but not nearly as well. Get ready to see a healthy raft of some strange and progressive-ass tax cuts, America!

Mark A. Sadowski said...

I'm not sure that Mankiw is correct in his assertion. If estimates of the effects of endogenous tax changes are biased because of an identification problem, then why did Romer bother to estimate their effects? Those estimates would then be absolutely meaningless statistically,and that is clearly not what she is stating in her paper.I'm beginning to believe that Mankiw should either turn in his credentials, or that he should resign from the human race.

RufusRules said...

Another brilliant Silver beatdown. Nate, you're like a bullshit-fighting superhero.

Let's see if Mankiw responds by totally losing it, à la Bennett or Ziegler.

Redshift said...

Michael:
Thanks for the incisive post. I don't remember who the quote is attributed to, but it goes something like, "..yes, you are entitled to your own opinion. You are not, however, entitled to your own facts."

For future reference, it's Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Redshift said...

Given that no fiscal stimulus package of spending in the last 100 years has been shown to improve the economy, what kind of intellectually honest ground is anyone on here?

Thanks for providing a textbook example of "intellectual dishonesty," as well as an illustration of the Moynihan quote above. A two-fer, very efficient!

Junius said...

The Romer study looks at exogenous tax cuts rather than countercyclical tax cuts because it would be impossible to control for the confounding effects of monetary policy/business cycles/etc.

This is not to say that tax cuts are necessarily the answer right now. But it's interesting that Obama's team finds such a low multiplier for tax cuts given Christina Romer's own research. It's fair of Mankiw to ask questions, and I found Mr. Silver's post (along with the--gasp!-- comments section) to be intemperate.

Michael (mbw) said...

Whoops, I withdraw my previous praise for this post. Although the Mankiw article is obnoxious and unconvincing in several respects (see below), as several posters above have noted, he did not really distort the point of the Romers' article.They looked at (somehwwhat arbitrarily defined) exogenous tax cuts in order to minimize the confounding factors that obscure the effects of 'endogenous' cuts. Ideally, if some tax changes were instituted according to some random number generator, we could gradually disentangle the response function from noise, with no systematic confounders. They're trying to do that, but even their classification procedure may in effect introduce other confounders. So I wouldn't trust the results, but Mankiw is not in this regard being as dishonest as Nate says.

What seems worse about Mankiw's article is his assumption that private spending is consistently directly productive of well being and that public spending isn't. He naturally cites no social science evidence on the marginal benefits of increased consumption by the rich, because he really wouldn't like what the results are. He uses economic indices that would not pick up the benefits of the WPA building my elementary school- still in use with little modification.

So I think that he's deeply wrong about social utility- but not at the sleazy bait-and-switch level implied by Nate's post.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

@Junius

Romer's justification for classifying tax cuts is stated rather clearly on page 8:

"The classification that we use reflects the effects we are trying to measure. We are most interested in the effects of tax changes on real economic performance. Therefore, we want to separate legislated tax changes into those that were motivated by the state of the economy and those that were not. More specifically, we want to test whether tax changes cause output growth to differ from normal. Therefore, in our classification scheme what we want to separate are changes aimed at keeping growth at normal and changes that are either aimed at moving growth away from normal, or taken without regard to their effects on growth. We will refer to tax changes aimed at keeping growth at normal as endogenous” and tax changes taken for other reasons as “exogenous."

In short it was not because of an identification bias, or because it was difficult to measure the effects of endogenous tax cuts. It was because she was interested in determining if tax changes cause output growth to change from normal. Endogenous tax cuts fail to qualify because they are either spending related or are designed to return the economy to normal growth.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

@Michael,

I disagree. Mankiw was intellectually dishonest in his NYT article, as he only mentioned Romer's results concerning exogenous tax changes and completly ignores her results concerning countercyclical tax changes (the kind being considered).

He compounds his crime by then saying the following in his blog:

"The Romers focus on exogenous tax changes for the same reason doctors conduct randomized drugs trials--not because they are interested in randomization as a prescriptive tool, but because randomization solves an statistical identification problem."

Anyone who has bothered to read the paper knows that this is absolutely not the reason that Romer gave. She is not claiming there is an identification problem and in fact she gives the results of her estimates indicating she believes the opposite to be true.

The only other possibility other than intellectual dishonesty is that Mankiw is just spewing without never actually having read Romer's paper.

Junius said...

@Mark

I'm not interested in spending my Sunday on a debate in the comments section of a blog, so I'll say one more thing to see if I can convince you.

The passage you quoted is insufficient. Yes, the Romer's looked at tax changes that were meant to change output growth from normal. They did not include tax changes that were attempting to return growth to normal. That doesn't tell us WHY they made this distinction.

Read the very first page:
"More generally, the central reason that estimating the effects of tax changes is so difficult is that there are pervasive possibilities for omitted variable bias. In the case of legislated coutnercyclical tax changes, some factor is both affecting the future path of output and causing policymakers to change taxes."

Later, on page 2:
"[C]ontrolling for all other non-policy factors that affect revenues and that could directly affect output is essentially impossible...We therefore pursue an alternative approach...We use the historical record to isolate legislated tax changes from changes in revenutes related to economic conditions."

Read the whole thing. You are correct that the Romer's distinguished between types of tax cuts, but you did not read the reasoning behind their choice.

radio303 said...

Mr. Mankiw's come a long way from a living classic to advising 'a politician whose name even is not Mitt'. let's hope he fings his way back.

AySz88 said...

Mankiw is basically arguing that an endogenous tax cut should have the same multiplier effects as an exogenous one, just as randomized medical drug trials should show the same treatment effect as actually using the drug. But I don't really buy this: a randomized drug trial structure actually does have an effect on the efficiency measurement - it underestimates efficiency, because of the placebo effect. (i.e. you're comparing off 'placebo treatment' instead of comparing off 'no treatment'.) But you err on the side of caution, and this technique is a safe thing to do for drug trials.

In this case, is there a reason to expect an overestimate of the effect, by some sort of psychological argument? Or is there some reason to believe that endogenous cuts should have the same multiplier? I'm not sure (and am curious if anyone has an answer), but I don't buy what Mankiw says on its own.

musefree said...

Nate, I am a fan of your blog, but this post is a bad one, for precisely the reasons laid out by Mankiw in his response.

The reason Romer focusses on exogenous tax cuts is to enable identification of their effects. To give an analogy, the fact that most lab tests are performed in careful, double blind conditions does not mean that their inferences cannot be applied to the real world.

Yes, it is conceivable that the effects of exogenous tax cuts do not carry through in the current situation because of other factors. Just as real world complexities and external factors may produce a different result than a lab test. However to accuse someone using the lab test to make real world deductions of dishonesty without providing any further analysis is an example of sloppy thinking; the same can be said of your post.

Michael (mbw) said...

To elaborate-

The Romers set aside as 'endogamous' a set of tax changes obviously driven by transient economic conditions, for which the remainder of the transient pattern is hard to distinguish from the response to the tax changes. However, the motivation for the other 'exogamous' changes is never 'hey, this is a nice random time to make a tax change as a social experiment' but also always driven by fluctuating social factors which can have connections to subsequent economic behavior. So at best they've done a very crude job of removing confounders. And it's at the expense of leaving out data on treatment during those transient problems, during which the response function may be quite different (as Nate says.)
Bottom line: If we have a chance during a period when there is a lot of under-utilized labor to build better energy-efficient transportation, better public spaces, etc. lets do it. And we know that economies can recover even when consumption of luxury items is severely inhibited, so long as resources are distributed among the not-so-rich. cf WWII.

Eric Fish said...

If you look at the paper, the bottom of page 22 looks the most directly relevant to this disagreement.

There, Romer and Romer say that endogenous countercyclical changes do not deviate significantly from exogenous changes (with a few caveats about statistical confidence), and if true this means that countercyclical fiscal policy doesn't work very well.

Since the Romers find that endogenous countercyclical cuts don't deviate strongly from exogenous cuts, Mankiw is right in this disagreement about his intellectual honesty. I'd say the really intellectually dishonest thing Mankiw is doing is not acknowledging the second part about countercyclical tax cuts not working generally. But arguably that's mainly dishonest on Romer's part, because she's now a high-ranking official in an administration doing something that she apparently thinks doesn't work. Mankiw is known as a Keynesian, so I imagine he probably thinks countercyclical fiscal policies do work at some level and just didn't want to use column space explaining why he disagrees with the Romer who wrote this paper (as distinct from the Romer who is working for an administration offering a stimulus package).

Mark A. Sadowski said...

@Junius

I don't want to waste my Sunday either. (In fact I have to get to the liqour store before it closes.)

It is true that Romer mentions the possibility of ommitted variable bias, and that this might be particularily true with respect to countercyclical tax changes. But she is not claiming that this is in fact the case. Furthermore she states quite clearly that she chose to look at exogenous tax changes because she was interested in determining if tax changes cause long-run output growth to change from normal. Endogenous tax cuts fail to qualify because they are either spending related or are designed to return the economy to normal growth in the short-run. In the final analysis the central focus of Romer's paper was not to measure the effect of countercyclical tax changes at all (although she did do just that). If Mankiw were genuinely interested is discussing the effects of countercyclical tax changes he should cite another paper (Mark Zandi for example) that focuses on those kind of tax changes. But even if he insists on citing Romer's paper, why does he fail to mention her results concerning countercyclical tax changes? The answer is of course that Romer's results (and Mark Zandi's, as well as others) concerning countercyclical tax changes don't support the politically biased policy prescription he is trying to push.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

@Eric Fish

Krugman and others have made the point that according to the research many of the proposed tax cuts in the stimulus proposal, especially the business tax cuts (bonus depreciation, hiring credit and accelerated write downs), will have little or no effect. The only rational reason for an economic team as gifted as Obama's for supporting them is political. Obama wants this to be a bipartisan bill. This is candy for the Republicans.

Steve Roth said...

I noticed exactly the same thing. Classic out-of-context cherry picking.

This is SOP for Mankiw. In his magisterial Growth of Nations he concludes--along with a resounding consensus of economists who have studied the issue--that in developed countries, tax levels have little or no correlation to long-term growth.

http://trueconservative.typepad.com/trueconservative/2008/02/mankiw-post-fri.html

But his concluding advice is to ignore all the silly econometrics, and go with basic economic theory. His theory, of course.

Steve Roth said...

I think I posted on this, but the same was true of his "progressive taxation" post. See Lane Kenworthy's blog for correctively accurate information.

psychephile said...

Economic ignorance from (gasp!) a liberal gambler.

tzane said...

Both Nate and several commentators here do not understand the fundamentals of econometric modeling. Please see Mankiw's response on his blog.

tzane said...
This post has been removed by the author.
John Lee said...

Michael:

I think Mankiw's reasoning for the assumption that private spending will be more efficient than government spending is that often officials in the private sector like CEOs have an incentive of sorts to spend money efficiently. Maybe the big three or finance companies don't, but that's exactly why they're in such dire straits at the moment. In a competitive market, firms will want to spend their money more efficiently than their competitors, creating a virtuous cycle of competing to spend money most efficiently. Public sector officials don't have such similarly aligned incentives; they generally want to spend as much money as possible for their own uses, which they believe are important. While some uses are clearly important, some are not, and it's hard for the government to figure out the most efficient uses of money without market signals.

The main problem at the moment is that the financial markets aren't working, which makes it hard for private firms to get their hands on money to invest - and even if they could, they might just decide to save the money instead for investment in the future. One solution to this is obviously government spending of some sort. Tax breaks might also work, however. The question is which of these two would work better.

So now we come back to the original point of all this: what does the Romers' study state exactly? As far as I can tell from those in the know (not being trained in econometrics I myself can't follow the paper very well), it does suggest that tax cuts are much more effective than government spending.

krasen said...

Mankiw got this right. check his answer. And furthermore, keep Krugman out of the picture, cause he might get praise for his economic geography, but this does not make him a good macroeconomist. He might have served well as an economic advisor to a socialist regime.

Michael (mbw) said...

@John Lee- Your arguments are very much the standard ones we are always taught. They have some merit in explaining why, for parallel enterprises, government work is more likely to slip into inefficient cronyism, meaning keeping unproductive workers etc. They have almost no relevance to questions of overall distributive efficiency. And they have nothing to do with the central questions of infrastructure and environmental externalities. When there's a massive backlog of needs in those areas, and an astounding surplus of competitive conspicuous consumption, it's obvious approximately what needs to be done.

wv: glutled (How did it know?)

JHB said...

Mankiw's response analogy - randomized medical testing - doesn't really work for me. For this economic lab rat, on the face of it, a tax break when things are more or less normal is a lot like a lottery winning. Sure, I'd be likely to spend it.

Right now, with everyone screaming "pay down your credit card" and "keep six months minimum for unemployment/job search" it hardly seems likely that a lot of discretionary spending will result from a tax reduction.

Counter-revolutionary said...

The truth is somewhere between Nate and Mankiw in my opinion. The truth is Mankiw's analogy about randomized drug subjects is not apt, because drug studies are rarely done on healthy people (for obvious reasons). Our economy is not healthy, and is not behaving under normal circumstances, and thus Nate is right to question the results of the study. That being said, I think all Mankiw's doing is raising questions, and the study itself is still good enough for that. Supposing tax cuts were only about half as effective as they say, it might still be worth doing, thanks to the timeliness and other issues.

Bottom line: Nate's right, but not enough to quit his day job. :)

Mark A. Sadowski said...

@tzane,

I don't know how much formal econometrics Nate has studied but he does have a bachelors degree in economics from the University of Chicago (he also spent his third year at the London School of Economics). He certainly has a background in statistics. As for myself, I am finishing a PhD in economics (which included two years of graduate econometrics, and that happens to be the University of Delaware's specialty) as well as three years of graduate mathematics and statistics.

The point of Nate's post and of my comments is that the things Mankiw is saying are highly misleading. Romer's main results concerned exogenous tax cuts. The kind being considered right now are countercyclical. Mankiw fails to mention Romer's secondary results concerning countercyclical tax cuts. (He also fails to cite any research papers whose focus is the effects of countercyclical tax cuts for that matter.) He then claims in his blog that Romer says that countercyclical tax cuts are definitely subject to identification bias, which she has not (she provides the results, which he conveniently ignores).

In other words he is using a research paper on oranges to make a statement about apples, while ignoring that paper's results on apples. When attacked for this, he claims that Romer says that apples were excluded from the estimate of oranges because they are definitely subject to statistical bias, which she has not.

Those of us who have a background in econometrics, mathematics or statistics just thought people ought to know that Mankiw is doing this for purely political reasons. He clearly knows better.

PaulK said...

@Michael and John Lee, the issue is over government competing with private sector in areas such as transport, energy production, tele-comm, etc. Generally, Government run enterprises of that form are (or become) inefficient and lack of competition almost ensures that.
But, building/fixing roads and bridges and other public infrastructure is not competing with private. In fact, most government funding of it is by hiring private contracting companies to do the work. So, government can be very efficient (through non-rigged bids) in such areas.
The biggest problem with Government funding of such enterprises is that too many projects are selected for the wrong reasons. The whole "pork barrel" problem is another kind of inefficiency, although not generally in in terms of job creation and GDP.

theOrange said...

Obviously, Counter-revolutionary is unfamiliar with clinical drug trials. In Phase 1 of a drug trial, the drug is tested on healthy individuals in order to test the pharmacodynamics (how the drug works in the body), pharmacokinetics (how the body processes the drug), tolerability, and pharmacovigilance (safety) of the drug.

MadMax said...

I think there is a misunderstanding by Nate and others here regarding why economists use exogeneous policy changes for estimation purposes. It isn't because endogeneous and exogeneous changes have differential impacts on the economy. It is because only exogeneous changes can be used to accurately estimate those effects.

MadMax said...

"Mankiw should leave the discussions to people who are serious about getting our economy moving again."

I thought that it was sad that Nate finished his response with the sentence quoted above. It is a classical example of an ad hominem response, and equally ugly whether coming from the left or right.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

@MadMax

What makes one an economist is debatable. (Most of the "economists" posted in Real Clear Markets have never even taken an elementary course in microeconomics for instance.) But Nate does have an undergraduate degree in economics from arguably the finest department of economics in the country. Research papers focus on exogenous or engogenous tax cuts depending on what effects they are trying to analyze. Romer's paper was focused on determining the effect of tax changes on long-run growth (or growth in potential GDP if you prefer). Other research, like that done by Mark Zandi, has focused on determining the effect of tax cuts on short-run growth (or closing the gap between actual and potential GDP). They are indeed trying to measure different things.

pcleddy said...

Pwnd!

MadMax said...

"Research papers focus on exogenous or engogenous tax cuts depending on what effects they are trying to analyze."

No so. Researchers distinguish between the two for the purposes of accurately estimating the impact of a tax cut. The point is not that an endogenous tax cut has a different sort of impact. It is that is impossible to estimate it without getting into rather arcane estimation procedures using things such as intrumental variables.

I don't have a dog in the debate of whether spending increases or tax cuts have bigger multipliers. But I'm afraid on the issue of endogeneity Mr. Mankiw is correct.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

@MadMax
Actually Mankiw's clumsy effort to justify this on identification bias was misleading.Romer's paper contains her results concerning endogenous tax changes. But she wasn't really interested in focusing on short-run changes in output. And the real problem with estimating the effects of endogenous tax changes is that there simply haven't been enough of them (in fact virtually none in the last thirty years). Mark Zandi's estimates are done via econometric simulations, not through somewhat more sophisticated econometric techniques (such as using instrumental variables) on actual data. I don't have a dog in anything either except getting the econometrics right.

Mike in Maryland said...

John said...
Given that no fiscal stimulus package of spending in the last 100 years has been shown to improve the economy, what kind of intellectually honest ground is anyone on here?

I think the Great Depression was less than 100 years ago.

Sweden responded much differently than the rest of Europe, and was out of the Depression much earlier than any other country.

Sweden embarked on a program of deficit government spending to provide emergency relief, to create jobs on public works projects, and to enhance popular social security. Much of that is similar to FDR's New Deal, except FDR tried to hold down the federal government deficits, so the providing of emergency relief was not anywhere near to the level that it was in Sweden.

In Germany, there was a somewhat similar approach, with massive public works projects, and massive spending on military rearmament. It was the military rearmament that caused Germany problems a few years later, thus the German model was shown to not be effective in the long-term.

Luis said...

I haven't given any credence to anything Mankiw said ever since he tried to class fast-food serving jobs as manufacturing jobs in order to beef up (no pun intended) Bush's employment numbers.

www.gregor.us said...

I think Silver should have simply asserted that Mankiw's use of Romer was in error. I also think Mankiw's response on his blog now (to Silver) equally over-reaches.

Counter-revolutionary said...

@theOrange

But not to treat the patient or see if he got any better, which is the whole point. Yes, I am unfamiliar with drug trials, but I doubt Mankiw is aware of the inner workings of them either. Its called an analogy.

Michael (mbw) said...

@ PaulK- Sure, agreed.

@Mark A Sadowski-
I think you;re slightly overstating the case. Mankiw is wrong to imply that there's a reliable estimate of the effects of countercyclical tax cuts based on results from non-countercyclical tax changes. Also, he gratuitously throws in a lot of cultish market-worship , ignores the effects of distribution inequality, ignores the environmental material underpinnings of the economy....


However, you have written "the central focus of Romer's paper was not to measure the effect of countercyclical tax changes at all (although she did do just that)". This is the deep error that is bugging some of your critics here. Tabulating the average changes after tax cuts is not remotely the same as "measuring their effects". Large changes are expected at just those times anyway, and disentangling these effects is not a matter of simple time-series analysis.

zosima said...

Nate,
I absolutely agree that Mankiw either doesn't understand this study or is being intellectually dishonest, but I think you are right for the wrong reasons.

The Romers are absolutely trying to estimate the stimulative effect of ALL TAX CUTS by looking at exogenous tax cuts. Mankiw's mistake is citing the coefficient for the calculated effect of real gdp,(3 percent) rather than the effect of cyclically adjusted gdp(1.1 percent, introduced several paragraphs later in the result analysis). There is good reason to believe that the effect on real gdp will overestimate the coefficient of tax efficacy because the Romers' narrative method introduces a systematic Selection Bias.

You are wrong in claiming that Mankiw is wrong because he is citing the coefficient associated with exogenous tax cuts, rather than endogenous cuts. Mankiw is wrong for a much more basic reason. IMO it makes him look more incompetent than dishonest.

Here are the details:
The Romers start with the goal of modeling the effect of tax changes on GDP. Their implicit model for GDP is a linear one. Namely:
dGDP/dt= f(dTax/dt) + g(dEverythingElse/dt)

Where f is something like:
f(x) = m*x/n
where m is the coefficient of efficacy and n is some normalizing factor. g(x) is a function of similar form with different coefficients.

Previous studies have looked at dGDP/dt(change in GDP, cyclically adjusted) rather than f(dTax/dt) change in GDP due to taxes. This means that estimates of the efficacy of tax cuts could be skewed by g(dEverythingElse/dt). So the Romers look at tax changes when there is not some strong cyclical current(exogenous changes, ie when g(dEverythingElse/dt) is small). This means we can get a less skewed estimate of the correlation between changes in tax cuts and changes in GDP.

The problem with this method(a problem that the Romers are well aware of) is that it introduces a Selection Bias. Tax Changes introduced that are not counter-cyclical are likely to be introduced when the economy is doing well. Politicians rarely introduce taxes with the expressed purpose of making the economy less productive(even though Keynesian Theory predicts that they should).
Thus the change in GDP will be conflated with normal growth if one looks at the correlation between changes in Exogenous Taxes and changes in Real GDP. To remove this Selection Bias, you must perform a cyclical correction to the GDP, which basically corrects the GDP down when it is growing and corrects it up when it is down. This way your results won't be skewed if you have more samples from times when the economy is booming. Mankiw should know this.

When they do this, their estimate of 1.1 percent is very close to the .99 that is used in the statistics produced on Obama.

So the long and short of the story, Mankiw either deliberately or accidentally missed a very basic issue in statistical methods. But he was not wrong whether exogenous or endogenous taxes were meant to be the estimator of the true efficacy tax changes in modifying GDP. To say that exogenous taxes cannot be used as an estimator of the efficacy of exogenous AND endogenous taxes would be more of a criticism of the Romers' experiment method that Mankiw's understanding of it.

Michael (mbw) said...

@Zosima- Hey, thanks. What you wrote is exactly what those of us who aren't experts and just skimmed the paper needed. Mankiw really screwed up.
End of discussion?

ksatyr said...

While I understand your cholesterol analogy, I have to point out that dietary cholesterol only accounts for maybe 15% of the blood cholesterol of meat eaters, the rest is endogenous, manufactured primarily by the liver. It is quite possible for someone with a vegan diet devoid of cholesterol to still have high blood cholesterol levels.

A better reason to avoid the super-sized Tripple Whopper meal, if only considering health, would be to avoid the trans-fatty acids contained in dairy products, ruminant meats and the hydrogenated vegetable oils they're likely cooked in, as, relative to mono unsaturated cis-fatty acids, trans-fatty acids have been shown to increase LDL levels while simultaneously depressing HDL production. This is a worse situation than consuming saturated (12-16 carbon chain) fatty acids, which, while increasing LDL levels, do not depress HDL production.

As for the stimulus, does not a tax cut make a worker feel better when they get their wage packet? A more optimistic outlook on life may cause more spending. Also, a very low wage individual living close to the line will spend every extra dollar they get. Finally, someone close to the edge on their mortgage may avoid foreclosures if their wage increases by just enough that they can continue to make the payments.

John Lee said...

Michael:

I'm not so sure about that. I mean, it's obvious that yes, we do need to do something about failing infrastructure and environmental externalities - but as Mankiw and Tyler Cowen have been arguing on their blogs, these are good policies which ought to be just as valid in good economic times as they are in bad. The real issue is the stimulus package - how should it be configured?

The problem is that we don't really have much experience here. Cowen's argued that we haven't seen evidence of stimulus packages working in normal recessions; progressives like Matt Yglesias counter that this is obviously not a normal recession, not if the Fed has slashed interest rates to zero. A plurality if not majority of economists don't think the New Deal really directly helped w.r.t. the Great Depression, and the economies which recovered fastest often had central banks which responded appropriately to the financial crisis.

The biggest enemy of the stimulus package, assuming it is the best way we have to fight the economic downturn and help the economy get to where it wants to go (i.e. less jobs in the finance, real estate and auto manufacturing sectors, more in...some as of yet unidentified industries), is time. As PaulK says, we will inescapably have a lot of pork in the stimulus package because we need to get it out the door as soon as possible, which implies we'll hardly have any time to vet spending proposals. And it's by no means clear what proposals for "green jobs" are worthy of public funding; are the Chevy Volt or the Tesla more deserving of funds than biodiesel? A lot of infrastructure projects will have huge time lags because of planning and safety regulations, and the jobs they create are not likely to soak up those freshly laid off from financial firms or the auto sector.

The strongest argument tax cuts have is that they may be the fastest to get out the door, and least likely to involve pork. But again, we don't have much data on whether people will spend or save their newfound cash, or whether the banks will be able to find ventures to invest that money in. It seems that the Obama administration's numbers indicate tax cuts are inferior to government spending, but I am still worried that the government will:

1. Not be able to wisely spend much of the money;
2. Not be able to get the stimulus package into action in time.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

@Michael
Romer carefully seperated the types of tax cuts in order to evaluate their effects. What error are you referring to? Why would large changes be expected unless your own intuition thinks that that would make them happen.

Eric said...

Mankiw's Response to this Post:
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/01/importance-of-being-exogenous.html

Mark A. Sadowski said...

Try the importance of being truthful.

MadMax said...

When all is said and done these arguments about multipliers will seem academic. We'll get significant spending increases and tax cuts. Given the uncertainty about what the optimal mix is, it is probably best to have quite a bit of both. I'd even favor adding some prozak to the water supply in the hopes it will cheer people up and get them to spend.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

@Michael

What error? Romer never intended for this paper to be a study on the effects of a countercyclical tax change on the economy. The real question is why are people trying to make it one?

Mark A. Sadowski said...

When Greg Mankiw starts telling the whole truth, it might do the world's economy a world of good. Until then we'll always be in doubt and in depression.

Cugel said...

Conservatives always talk about tax cuts in terms of how they will effect the economy (and they can never tell the truth about that!) rather than the simple reality of funding government goods and services.

So, all these arguments are beside the point. We gave HUGE tax breaks to the rich in 2001. Now we have a huge deficit and they want more?

If the middle-class get a pittance after they've been feasting for 8 years they must have another slice?

Domino said...

This conversation really has had my head spinning. Thanks for challenging Mankiw on this, I will be far more skeptical of anything he says in the future than I have so far.

It's nice to see that Mark Thoma, and the Economist's Free Exchange blog have your back on this.

It seems like I love your blog more and more with every passing day!

alex martin said...

Mankiw is the blandest, vapidest economics professor you can think of. In several years as a graduate student of his, I never heard him utter a single seriously interesting thought. There is an abyss between this personable, well-behaved respectful nonentity and Galbraith, Solow, Krugman, or Robert C Merton, who oversaw my dissertation. Note that the man has not produced in his career even ONE research paper that made any impact in his chosen field of economics.

Michael said...

But the larger issue becomes what an earlier post mentioned in passing; it being repeatedly cited in the news media as "proof" of agreement in principle between the outgoing Bush Administration and the incoming Obama Administration.
Already on "Morning Joe" this morning, Erin Burnett incorrectly cited the "similarity" between Mankiw's and the Romer's position on how much tax cuts multiply economic growth. Why conservatives continue to slavishly adhere to their broken fiscal ideology defies logic or explanation.

emulated said...

Can't agree with you on this one. In their conclusion, the Romers say that countercyclical tax changes probably haven't worked in the past because they "are rarely taken before output growth has already returned to normal." The current recession is expected to last into Q4, but most people think that tax changes would be legislated by end of Q1, so the current situation is different from the ones the Romers studied. Combining that with 1) the fact that the sample of countercyclical tax changes is small and that 2) their results for endogenous tax changes were not significant means that there is little we can say about the effects of tax changes in the current climate. Or as Christina Romer and Jared Bernstein say here about the size of a tax-cut multiplier:

We confess to considerable uncertainty about our choice of multipliers for this element of the package.

Andrew said...

now nate is the who is is PWND

http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/01/be-careful-when-you-criticize-experts/

Dangerhorse said...

Mankiw's response seems plausible to me. Whether he's ultimately right or wrong, it appears he's genuinely expressing what he belives: I don't think there's a case to be made for "intellectual dishonesty" here. Would love to see an (at least partial) retraction from Nate here.

Michael (mbw) said...

whoops, it's a little late to return to this post, but since some remarks were addressed to me here's some replies, in case anybody else looks.

@Mark A. Sadowski said...
"Romer carefully seperated the types of tax cuts in order to evaluate their effects. What error are you referring to? Why would large changes be expected unless your own intuition thinks that that would make them happen."

The Romers and apparently everyone else agrees that major GDP changes are underway whenever a countercyclical tax cut is instituted. Therefore no matter how carefully you record the subsequent GDP changes, you need some other line of evidence to try to separate tax effects from the background.
Mark, this is just a plain old instance of the catechism 'correlation does not imply causation'. Thinking that it does is an error.

@ John Lee- It's not quite true that major infrastructure projects are equally good policy at all times. Their real costs are lowered in periods of high unemployment. Carpe diem!
On the choices of Chevy Volt vs. biodiesel, I think the current answer is obvious: both. The very fact that there are such choices to pose shows that in fact the alleged absence of good projects on which to spend the stimulus is false. Many of these infrastructure projects will do an excellent job soaking up unemployed from the auto sector. We cannot soak up all the unemployed from the financial sector in the same way, because they were engaged in a deeply useless type of activity, at least at the scale that we had, so the funds should go instead to something our kids can use.

Dan Szymborski said...

[...]

well-behaved respectful nonentity and Galbraith, Solow, Krugman, or Robert C Merton, who oversaw my dissertation.

One of these things is not like the others! One of these things just does not belong!

It's pretty insulting to Krugman and Solow to place them in a group with ol' John Kenneth. I don't believe Krugman even considers Galbraith an actual economist.

It's akin to talking about "Mozart, Brahms, and Meat Loaf" or, more fitting in this group "Gandhi, Lincoln, and George W. Bush."

Eddy said...

Big fan of yours Nate, but I'm afraid you may be in a bit over your head on this one. "Intellectual dishonesty," "bluffing," "out of ideas," "taking one for the team, and touting the party line" are all very strong charges, which you make on one cutesy, undergraduate-type "gotcha" analysis of an economics paper. In the end, even your single point that the Romer and Romer paper only talks about exogenous tax changes may be irrelevant, since as Mankiw explains in his rebuttal, the point of the paper is not to specifically study the exogeneity of tax changes, instead, it uses exogenous tax changes as an experimental tool. The authors explain rather clearly in the conclusion that they extrapolate their finding to the larger picture, and argue that that tax changes in general are predicted to cause large changes in output due to their effect on investment.

egapre said...

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Opus 132 said...
This post has been removed by the author.
aberman said...

Uh, Nate, most of the people who read you should rightly defer to your expertise in economics and statistics. I certainly do. However, you are not an expert in what's going on in Professor Mankiw's head when he writes. I don't see why anyone should give you any credibility when you make personal attacks like you just did. I think an apology on your part would be a good start to fixing this mess.

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