Hmm:
There is a strong possibility that Barack Obama will ask Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) to serve as his Secretary of Commerce, Democratic Senate aides tell the Huffington Post.Judd Gregg is up for re-election in 2010 and stands to face a vigorous challenge, most likely from 2nd District Congressman Paul Hodes, but remains reasonably popular and would be the favorite in that race. By Senate standards, he is a relative youngin' at 61 years old, but he's been in politics forever, having first been elected to the House of Representatives at age 33 in 1980. Joining the Obama cabinet, then, is probably not a matter of Gregg's political survival, but more likely would represent a sort of early retirement.
The move would fill a vacancy that has lingered since Gov. Bill Richardson withdrew his nomination. And provided that Al Franken emerges victorious in the Minnesota recount, it would give Democrats in the Senate a 60th caucusing member, as New Hampshire's Democratic governor John Lynch would appoint Gregg's replacement.
Then again, retirement seems to be a fairly attractive option for a lot of Senate Republicans these days. The fact of the matter is that:
(i) The Republicans will be in the minority in the Senate for at least the next four years. It is close to mathematically impossible for them to re-gain the chamber in 2010 given the seats that are up for grabs in that cycle. There is considerably more upside in 2012, when a lot of freshman Democrats elected in the 2006 wave will be up for re-election, but 2012 is also a year when Obama and his massive turnout operation will be on the ballot. Realistically, the odds of Republicans re-gaining control of the chamber before 2014 are low.
(ii) The working assumption in Washington right now is that Barack Obama will be re-elected in 2012. This is arguably shortsighted -- we know how much things can change in four years. But it's the working assumption being made by both parties for the time being.
(iii) The Republican party establishment wants no part of its senators, instead looking toward its governors and to a much lesser extent the House Republicans as its future.
(iv) While I know nothing about what sort of company Gregg keeps, a lot of Republicans that are close to him ideologically have retired or are planning to do so.
All of this makes the Senate a lonely place to be. If Gregg runs for re-election in 2010 and wins, he is more likely than not facing another six years under a Democratic President, and another four to six years in the minority party.
At the same time, I'm not sure that the Republicans are all that screwed over if Gregg leaves the Senate and a Democrat is appointed in his stead. Yes, it gets the Democrats to their magic number of 60. But 60 is an overrated, fuzzy number given that Olympia Snowe has sided with the administration on 26 of 31 roll call votes so far, and that Susan Collins, Arlen Specter, Lisa Murkowski and George Voinovich aren't far behind her. Moreover, if the Democrats actually get the 60th seat, it will be much harder for them to play the obstructionism card in 2010 -- and much easier, conversely, for the Republicans to play the divided government card.
Now, let's not be too contrarian here: if this happens, it is almost certainly a net gain for Democrats. But it might be relatively small one, given that:
1a) Gregg was voting with the Democrats reasonably often anyway;
1b) His replacement, conversely, would likely be someone fairly moderate who wouldn't vote with the Democrats 100% of the time;
2) Gregg, who has been a pretty reliable fiscal conservative, would presumably have at least some influence shaping policy from the Commerce Department;
3) The perceived benefit to the Democrats from getting a 60th seat is greater than the real one, increasing the risk that they will be seen as overreaching by the time that 2010 rolls around.

85 comments
All great points. So, do the Senate Repubs. tell him NOT to accept, or TO accept? Are they devious enough to do the latter?
Would he take the job, though?
Get the Governor to select a weak Republican. Someone who has been elected before, but not statewide. Someone who is far too far to the left for the average Republican, meaning he will face a primary opponent in 2010 and a strong Democrat as well.
geez, maybe he would be replaced by another Gillibrand type of appeasement candidate...
yet another good reason to change the way vacant senate seats are re-staffed.
a special election in this type of circumstance is the most democratic way to play - but not an appointment at a governor's sole discretion PLEASE
look at the inadequate seat holders that has gotten the nation in the last month... IL, NY, CO & DE
Moreover, if the Democrats actually get the 60th seat, it will be much harder for them to play the obstructionism card in 2010 -- and much easier, conversely, for the Republicans to play the divided government card.
The perceived benefit to the Democrats from getting a 60th seat is greater than the real one, increasing the risk that they will be seen as overreaching by the time that 2010 rolls around.
These strike me as pretty small-bore beltwayish considerations. There are only a couple of questions that are going to broadly determine what happens in 2010 (and 2012, for that matter).
1) How is the economy doing? Whether it's good or bad, Obama and the Democrats will get the credit or the blame (though I think they actually might be given a bit of leeway in 2010, so long as things are starting to move in the right direction; everyone knows the recession started on Bush's watch).
2) Has a broad health care bill passed? If yes, then the Dems get credit. If no, then the Dems get blamed, a la Clinton in '93 (even if it only fails by one vote on a filibuster).
It just won't matter to voters whether the Democrats have 58, 59, or 60 seats in the Senate. That extra seat will only matter in so far as it furthers the chances of the answers to the two questions above being 'yes.'
Good stuff, Nate. I can't find too much to disagree with.
That said, however, I'm actually not 100% sure that it'd be a detriment to Democratic chances in 2010 to get their 60th seat now. The reason I say this is this thought I had: in the Georgia Senate runoff, a big deal with voters according to polls was the issue that if Martin won, the Democrats would get their 60th seat. So, it seems logical to me that if they go into 2010 with 59 seats, then every single Republican opponent will press hard on the "don't give them 60 seats" issue. Meanwhile, however, if they go into 2010 having already had 60 seats, they can say "see, we have 60 seats and the sky hasn't fallen, why not give us a few more?".
I'm not 100% sure if this logic works... but it makes sense in my head as I write it.
Chachy, your remarks have the ring of truth and logic.
I do not understand why Obama keeps appointing Republicans and kowtowing to their demands for things like tax cuts in the stimulus bill. He appoints an entire team of Rubin acolytes to his economic posts, and then wants to appoint a Republican known for fiscal conservatism, now, at this time? It is disgusting.
As Paul Krugman pointed out in his blog, after 0 Republicans voted for the stimulus bill, aren't we glad Obama weakened the stimulus bills and put in $300 billion of tax cuts?
I understand Obama mouthing the words of bipartisanship, but it is especially obvious now that the Republicans aren't going to go for it. This is the best chance to show what a true progressive platform and social safety net can do for people... the first real chance in over 50 years to advance a progressive agenda. And so far all Obama is doing is wasting it.
Indeed this is the same pattern that Democrats have shown over the last 8 years, and particularly in the last two: they could have made much more of a fuss, fillibustered and such to prevent a lot of really dangerous legislation from passing. But instead they just let the Republicans run rampant.
I blame the Democrats as much as the Republicans and Bush administrations for the abuses of the last 8 years. And I am thus far highly unimpressed with their efforts to "change" things around.
Good post, Nate. I also agree with Chachy and Lucas' posts. Here's where I stand...
1. A move like this fucks with the wingnuts.
2. The biggest worry is that the Governor appoints a moderate or someone to the right of Gregg. New Hamphire is trurning solid blue, so he can afford to appoint a solid liberal.
Greg's seat is lost. Republicans in New England are dead, with the exception of the popular Maine women. There is not a single Republican in the House from Maine, and only 3 Republicans out of 12 in the Senate, plus Lieberman. Greg and Lieberman are unlikely to win re-election, so the Republican hold on their seats is probably over.
Lincoln Chafee probably would be a senator today had he switched parties in 2006. Instead, he campaigned for Obama as a FORMER Senator.
Greg is much better off as a cabinet secretary than struggling to defend Republican politics in 2010 to save his seat.
The Republicans are in danger of vanishing as a party. Their obstructionist game may make sense to Rush Limbaugh, but it holds the grave risk of making them look like Federalist opposing the War of 1812. The Federalist disappeared as a party as a result, and I'm not sure Republicans can survive if they sink to 36 Senate seats in 2010.
BTW, the reason people assume that Obama will win in 2012 is because no party has lost the White House after won term except Jimmy Carter in the past 100 years. Jimmy Carter was unpopular among his own party, so Obama has a low threshold to overcome to win re-election. If Republicans continue down the Palin-Boehner path, they will never control the government again.
Kami Chisholm,
President Obama is NOT a rookie politician. He came up through the Chicago political system.
As such, I have a feeling that he is setting up the Republicans to take a BIG fall in about 3-6 months.
In a lot of ways, he's playing the old 'rope-a-dope' used by Muhammad Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle against George Foreman - lulling the GOOPers into a thought process that they are not letting President Obama win, when in actuality, President Obama is backing them into a corner from which there is no escape.
By the end of this year, we'll almost certainly see a different style of relations between the Dems and Reps on Capital Hill, with the Reps in a much less favorable position in the public's eye. And that difference in relationship will almost certainly be set up by the actions being taken so far and for the next couple of months by President Obama.
As of right now, President Obama has been in office for less than 10 days - EFFECTIVELY, the first day of his administration was January 21. Practice a bit of patience, as it almost always pays much greater dividends than impatience.
Fundamentally Republicans have failed in a very very big way. Its simply not going to be possible for them to recover for a long time. Whatever argument they make in 2010 it will be a loser because the public doesn't trust them.
But psychologically having a 60th seat does matter a whole lot. Having a moderate Republican throw in the towel and join the Obama team is the Republican flag of surrender.
Republicans are successfully fooling themselves that McCain was the problem, when in reality McCain was simply the least toxic member of the party. A big bipartisan win by Obama with this will bring home just how terrible their reelection prospects are in the future.
The media narrative will then be "Which moderate Republican is next?" Not, can the Republicans successfully ignore the past 8 years?
In a time of possible cloture/filibuster situations,I'll take a moderate Democrat over a liberal Republican (an oxymoron) anytime.
I hope Judd takes the offer and gives us our 60th senator.I see absolutely no downside to this,now or in 2010.
But I think the Republicans will exert enormous pressure on Judd not to leave the Senate.We'll see what happens.
Opus,
Notice that AxelDC did NOT say "no President has lost . . .", but rather 'no party has lost . . . ."
Thus George H.W. Bush was the Republican's 3rd term of the Ray-gun/Bush era.
Carter won one election, and was preceded by a Republican (Ford) and succeeded by a Republican (Ray-gun). The previous time a political party's candidate won a single term, and was preceded AND succeeded by the opposite party's candidate was Grover Cleveland's second term in office (as the 24th President, 1893-1897) - preceded by the Republican Benjamin Harrison and succeeded by the Republican William McKinley.
I like the idea of a DC insider at Commerce in an economic downturn, we need a strong voice for business. The Symantec guy seems well qualified, but he would not be a force in DC.
Good analysis, but I'd like to point out a few things in regards to concerns about Gregg shaping Commerce policy. For one thing, Obama seems thusfar to be pretty hands-on, and policy will flow from Obama to Gregg. If there are specific policy disagreemens, Obama can trump Gregg by issuing executive orders. And Cabinet members serve at the pleasure of the President.
@LUCAS: Excellent point.
@KAMI: Based on his actions in the Illinois state senate, I take Obama at his word: He isn't just mouthing the bipartisanship, he actually plans to have it.
He is not a short term, one victory at a time, partisan politician. He will give them victories we do not have to give them in any way, in order to build capital for later when he must deny them something.
Obama is creating counter-examples that pundits and bloggers can cite for the days when he is charged with dividing the government on partisan lines.
Who knows when or what issues will create those charges, but they will certainly come along, and he is stocking up on the antidote now. The Republican case loses heft when your Commerce Secretary is a fiscal conservative Republican. And there is no danger in appointing Gregg, because Obama really does share some fiscal conservative principles; he has already proven he likes transparency in finance, despises waste, and wants lower taxes for people that make less.
So Obama will certainly set the agenda at Commerce and I have no doubt he is strong enough to keep anybody he appoints in line. All Secretaries work at the pleasure of the President, he can fire them at any moment for no reason at all.
Complaining about not winning every fight is the same mistake Democrats made during the primaries, exhorting Obama to fight back against Hillary, get angry, show outrage. He didn't and he won, and the composure he showed then served him well in the general election, and he won that too, and the composure he is showing now, and the concessions he makes to Republicans now, are going to balance the big liberal things he does later.
Let the Republicans self-implode, and let Obama be seen trying to help them and making real concessions their constituents want. It makes them look even weaker, and convinces even more voters that Obama is not just another cram down politician, that he is truly trying to find a middle path with ideas from both sides.
This does us good in 2010. Candidates can run as Obama Democrats and win more House and perhaps Senate seats.
Trying to win every battle loses the war, by 2010 a steady diet of cram downs will harden the minds of the opposition, including a fair share of swing voters, and the Democrats start giving up seats instead of taking new ones.
We kill the Republican party with kind compromise that softens the conviction of their voters. Isolation will only make them stronger.
I doubt this will happen, as long as Gregg is not seen as onstructing Obama h will have no trouble getting re-elected.
My guess is if he takes this job is he is sick if being in the minority and 60 votes isn`t much different than 58 or 59. I do not see anything that would be able to be fillibustered by the GOP, Spector, Snow, Collins and any other GOP senator from a blue state would be hesitant to look like they are obtructing the countries progress.
One fatal flaw in this argument Nate: You're assuming that the GOP is actually thinbking more than 10 feet in front of them. the chances of them actually analyzing the situation are slim to none.
Mike in Maryland,
I made this point in more detail on my blog a few months ago.
Basically, there have been fourteen presidents who reached the office the way Obama did (by defeating the party in power) and later sought reelection. (I am deliberately overlooking three who died in their first term, and one who declined to seek a second term for health reasons.) Only three from that group failed to be reelected: Pierce, Harrison, and Carter.
Pierce was actually rejected by his own party for reelection--something that has never happened before or since. Harrison did get renominated and went on to lose in the general election, but we also should remember that he had lost the popular vote the first time around. Carter is the only president in U.S. history to decisively defeat the party in power, serve one term, and decisively lose a reelection bid against the other party. (I am using the word "decisively" to exclude an electoral/popular split like what happened in 1888.) And virtually everyone outside the wingnut base (who are currently in deep denial) realizes that Obama is a much more skillful politician than Carter ever was.
If I was in Gregg's shoes, I'd definately take the job. I think a decision like this basically comes down to whether Gregg actually likes the idea of working for President Obama, who afterall is a bipartisan guy. It's only the RepubliKKKan leadership and the FReeptards who'd kick up fuck over this. That's why I'm all for it. Like I said earlier, I'm more worried about another Democratic governor making a bad appointment.
Just out of curiosity, which cabinet or appointed positions would Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins be suited to? Apparently Snowe is halfway intelligent, but Collins is complete a waste of space.
Nate,
New Hampshire U.S. Senate terms only last for two years. So Gregg would only be "stuck" in his seat until 2012 if re-elected in 2010.
won't a democrat - be very likely to stop a filibuster even if they won't vote for the bill
BTW, if this happens, don't be too surprised if Lynch nominates a moderate Republican to replace Gregg. He is exccedingly cautious and quite centerist and he kept on our Republican Attorney General, Kelly Ayotte, who had been legal counsel to his Republican predecessor, Craig Benson.
Nate, I think you meant a 'net gain for Republicans' in the last chunk of your post.
@Joel: The difference between 59 and 60 is immense. Sixty means don't even try to filibuster, we can vote for cloture and stop you. 59 enables the obstructionist threat, if 41 senators vote together they can stop anything. 40 are completely powerless to stop anything, and that changes their psychology completely. It means the Democrats don't have to give them a single thing, so they better start embracing real bipartisanship, or their voters will recognize how powerless their Senator is and vote in a blue dog Democrat instead. 60 is the tipping point that leads to catastrophic election losses for Republicans, it is not just 1/59 better than 59, it changes the whole game fundamentally.
I've got to wonder if this is the only senator looking to change teams. It seems like the moderate fiscal conservatives, socially liberal legislators are mostly gone. Many of them left have been attacked by their own party. If one is not ready to retire, and not able to reshape one's party and the GOP is going to vigorously go after governors' races...
Perhaps this route is could be very attractive to more legislators. If a candidate was for something like fiscal responsibility. It might it easier to do that as a D anyway, as the GOP is not aligned with those goals anymore anyway. For these kinds of moderates it might be a great way to move into a secure executive position where they can actually accomplish something in lines with their views.
I'm sort of echoing Tony C. when I say that for all of the wailing and gnashing of teeth amongst those who might be said to comprise his core constituency, I've really got to wonder: would Obama supporters be happier if he were to behave in a manner more akin to that of the predictably surly, lairy, and vituperative shits who populate the other side of the aisle?
I'm only being facetious of course, but come on --he's got to work with these people, whether he or anyone else likes it or not, and this is a long-haul proposition in any case; don't sweat the battles so much, and worry instead about winning the war.
Should he eventually find himself needing to appeal directly to the people, he wouldn't well be able to make a persuasive case that "Hey, I made an earnest bid to bring these people along, to be inclusive toward the opposition and welcoming of ideas sincerely put forth by them, and to change the general tone of the discourse for the better --and look at what it got us" without first making a very public show of, uh, making an earnest bid to bring these people along, to be inclusive toward the opposition and welcoming of ideas sincerely put forth by them, and to change the general tone of the discourse for the better.
Look, I'm all for the delivery of knockout blows, for seeing the enemy sent scrambling in disorderly panic from the battlefield and for hearing the lamentations of their women --but with rare exceptions there's a lot of slow, methodical setup work that necessarily precedes it. To put it another way, it's a much nicer thing to sip the wine than it is to toil in the vineyards, but you won't get the latter without somebody seeing to the former.
So patience NOW, dammit! Oh, and Nate --it's young 'un.
C.S. Strowbridge, there is no "too far to the left of an average Republican in New Hampshire." If there had been, Jeb Bradley would have lost the nomination for the second district congressional seat (won rather handily by liberal Democrat Carol Shea-Porter) instead of John Stephens.
And AxelDC, you don't know squat about New Hampshire politics. I'm as proud as anyone that we turned New Hampshire blue from top to bottom in '06 and '08, but Gregg's seat is hardly lost. This is New Hampshire, not the rest of New England. Gregg is strong on the environment; he is well-liked in the state; he keeps a low profile on hot button issues; and he can pretend to be very moderate, as he has so far this year. Don't underestimate the Republicans in this state, especially with John Sununu senior as the new head of the NH Republican Party.
And, by the way, Gregg will get a lot of pressure from Sununu to not take the Commerce job. It would leave NH without any Republican in power, from the Congressional delegation, to the corner office to the statehouse.
Unless, of course, a deal is made that Lynch appoint a Republican replacement as a caretaker. Former Senator Warren Rudman comes to mind, or one of his friends.
Uhhh, Maxwell, you're talking nonsense. All US Senate seats are 6 years. It's the Governorship of NH that is a 2 year term.
A couple of thoughts from the frozen North:
Kennyb, John Lynch didn't keep Kelley Ayotte out of affinity, that was part of a political deal with the Executive Council (NH has a constituionally-weak governorship)to keep the GOP from blocking his other appointments, Don't read too much into it. Lynch is a centrist and politically very cautious, which has caused problems on the Democratic Left. Appointing a Republican might prompt a revolt in the ranks; there's already some quiet discomfort with his failure to take Democratic positions on other issues. If he wants to run again in 2010, and Ayotte becomes the GOP candidate, he can't afford that.
Maxwell, I think you're confusing NH senatorial terms with federal terms. All federal senatorial terms are for 6 years.
Judd Gregg is a different guy, no question about it, like his late father probably more tied to the economically onservative/socially libertarian GOP that was overwhelmed here by the Union leader's right wing mouth-breathers. He's been quite good in constituent services, a big deal here. He doesn't kiss the U-L's ring, but having said that, there will be enormous pressure from the party and Sununu Sr, the NH party chair, to stay where he is.
A lot depends on whether he planned to step away in 2010. If he wants to run again, Lynch is already on record as saying he won't run, which takes a formidable candidate out of the field. Hodes visibly lusts for the job, but on this, his grasp may exceed his reach. Shea Porter's intentions are unclear, and after her, what's left? I don't see an overwhelming Democtratic threat to someone with political standing here.
Still, its not at all clear that Judd is up for more of being one voice in a long-term Senatorial minority, when he can be a strong policy counterweight in the administration of a president he obviously admires personally.
Nate, you're overestimating how much damage Gregg could do as Commerce Secretary. It's a pretty worthless position atop a pretty miscellaneous department.
Collins is not going anywhere. She just got a seat on the Appropriations Committee and will likely get re-elected for a very long time. The Maine Democratic Party and the DSCC put real effort behind Tom Allen, and while he had flaws in being able to appeal to the 2nd cd, he is likely going to be the best and most well-funded opponent Collins will have for quite awhile.
There's kind of a cult of 60 here. Keep in mind that having 60 Dems gives enormous power to moderate Democrats and gets moderate Republicans off the hook to some extent.
By the way, not only is Collins less smart than Snowe, she is also more difficult in work settings, particularly when it comes to staff from senior folks to interns.
Maxwell said...
Nate,
New Hampshire U.S. Senate terms only last for two years. So Gregg would only be "stuck" in his seat until 2012 if re-elected in 2010.
Are you sure that you aren't thinking about members of the New Hampshire Senate, and not of U.S. Senators from New Hampshire?
Gregg was first elected in 1992, and re-elected in 1998 and 2004.
C.S.Strowbridge said... "Get the Governor to select a weak Republican. Someone who has been elected before, but not statewide. Someone who is far too far to the left for the average Republican, meaning he will face a primary opponent in 2010 and a strong Democrat as well."
Pretty close. From political wire:
James Pindell, who has covered New Hampshire politics since 2002, tells Political Wire that the odds of Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) taking the job of secretary of commerce are currently 65-35 if offered.
But Pindell notes that Gov. John Lynch (D), who would choose Gregg's replacement in the Senate, "is the type of guy that would pick a Republican just because he is replacing a Republican and to bone up his bi-partisan credibility. Lynch has yet to comment on the issue -- heck Gregg has yet to be appointed -- but right now the money is on former Gov. Walter Peterson (R). He was chair of the 'Republicans for Lynch' committee, would vote with Democrats as much as Maine's Senators do, and most likely wouldn't run in 2010."
I could definitely live with a Snowe-like Republican who won't run for re-election in 2012. In fact, I think that's the best case scenario.
Fantastic post Tony C. There are lots of us who like the fact that Obama is committed to cooperation instead of confrontation. That whole there is no blue America, no red America, just a United States of America thing. Bush's and the Limbaugh/Hannity Party's hyperpartisanship over the last eight years has not served the country well. Obama is wise to avoid their example.
I do not see anything that would be able to be fillibustered by the GOP, Spector, Snow, Collins and any other GOP senator from a blue state would be hesitant to look like they are obtructing the countries progress.
The biggest piece of legislation that is likely to be filibustered is Employee Free Choice. I believe Snowe, Collins, and Gregg all voted against it last session, although Specter voted for it (the only R who did so). The Chamber of Commerce is geared up to defeat it and it's something the Republican party, even R moderates, is comfortable taking a stand on without fear of electoral blowback. Employee Free Choice is gonna be close and having a D vote in place of Gregg could make the difference. I agree with you that it is extremely unlikely any of Obama's economic legislation gets successfully filibustered.
Just out of curiosity, which cabinet or appointed positions would Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins be suited to? Apparently Snowe is halfway intelligent, but Collins is complete a waste of space.
Snowe would be good for Small Business Administration, although I think it's a big step down and should would not take it.
Pindell's comment to Political Wire matches my thinking though Peterson goes so far back I don't remember ever seeing his name before. Senator Gregg knows it's only going to get tougher if he stays in electoral politics. To survive he'll have to do a number of things that he'd probably rather not so I think, should Obama offer him the job, he'll accept. Such an outcome, I'd imagine, would please the Chamber and, should he stay on through Obama's first term, he'll be among those overseeing the census, which may please Republican elected officials everywhere.
Mike and Tony C.,
I concede your points on bipartisanship and am not hugely worried about the cabinet positions or small or medium size issues per se.
What I am worried about is the major concessions made on the stimulus package without the Republicans even asking for or supporting (per Paul Krugman). And I am worried about fiscal conservatism not in terms of transparency etc., which are obviously necessary, but rather tendencies to reign in spending at this very particular point in time.
This is no time to be f-ing around, and a major, New Deal style stimulus package is needed, not the weak, unnecessarily tax cut filled bill passed in the house.
I guess I am just not as confident as you both are that Obama really has progressive economic principles that will appear even down the road when his economic advisers are almost all Rubin-ite fiscal moderates who come out with this terrible stimulus bill and the extremely awful "bad bank" idea.
Obama is a genius, he takes out an electable republican, lets the governor put in a rino placeholder and more than likely in 2010 a democrat would win the seat since the gop has no good candidates except recent losers for office.
Sounds like this would be a good idea, makes Obama even more bi-partisan. The only catch is if they
select a republican for the seat they must promise to fight any fillibuster.
To be honest I think it really should be law that you replace a senator with someone from the same party.
@Another Mike: We will probably have to disagree, but I will make one attempt: Politics has degenerated into theater. Look at the way the Democrats under Bush were cowed in the Senate by the mere threat of Republican filibuster, or the mere threat of Presidential Veto, both when they had the majority and when they did not.
Of course they should have made Republicans actually filibuster, and should have made the President actually veto, but they did not.
Politics in the last 30 years has pretty much devolved into nothing but posturing and theater for the media.
Anthony Burns notes above that Democrats are pretty likely to vote for cloture even if they want to vote against the bill. A "NAY" vote by a conservative Democrat protects them from their constituents, and the cloture vote is spun as merely procedural.
I just don't think the Republicans will bother mounting a filibuster if it is doomed to failure. Partly because I really don't think they are that principled, so they will see it as a waste of time, not an investment in good government.
@Mainer: It is not a cult of 60, 60 is an actual legally prescribed threshold value that makes a pragmatic difference.
Kami, I'm certainly not enough of an economic expert to know whether the stimulus bill's mix of tax cuts and spending are the best combination to get the economy going. As I understand the argument, tax cuts work quicker but are not as effective, dollar for dollar, as spending. Some mix seems reasonable to me, especially, as is the case, if the tax cuts are not going primarily to the rich.
Good points, but we should still do it. This is probably the only way we can pass a good universal health care bill or a cap and trade system for green house gases.
The Republicans are making it very clear that they do not want to compromise. Most of em didn't even vote for SCHIP, and as we all know ZERO House R's vote for the stimulus, even after we changed it too placate them.
If we had 60 we wouldn't have to placate them anymore.
It's still worth it.
By the way, it's far from a foregone conclusion that Gregg would lose his Senate race in 2010. New Hampshire is still very much a moderate state. In 2008, Susan Collins - a pretty conservative Senator - solidly won re-election in Maine; that was in a very Democratic year and in a slightly more liberal state.
Kylopod said
"Carter is the only president in U.S. history to decisively defeat the party in power, serve one term, and decisively lose a reelection bid against the other party."
That is not correct. Carter barely beat Ford in 1976, had the election been held 2 wks later, Ford would have been reelected. Carter lost all state west of Texas, except Hawaii. The only times Carter had net positive favorables as president was from after his inauguration until the Bert Lance affair (first 6-8 months of 1977) and after the beginning of the Iran hostage criss in Nov 1979. He had many good intentions, but was poor at executing them.
Unlike Obama and Clinton, somewhat, Obama has an image and persona that dominates Congressional Dems and both are more in sync with one another than in the early 1990s and 1970s. However, Obama's popularity (and ability to maintain it) drives the tragectory of things. Basically, if he suceeds, his party suceeds with him. Obama is the biggest and most famous celebrity anything in the world right now..even the European governments want to be his BFF.
The Republicans can't do much on their own. They have no opportunities for growth oustide the South and sparsely populated interior West. And even there they are undermined by the black vote and Hispanic growth respectively. Their ideas are in sync with about 30% of the population and the necessary 20% + 1 to get them to a majority are not even listening to what they have to say. They can only win if Democrats fail.
The big issue here is the direction of the Republican Party.
Clearly recent trends have been towards Social Conservativism and against Fiscal Conservativism. It has been a double thrust of moderates loosing to Democrats in swing states and Republican fundamentalists in safe red areas.
But Parties DO change direction. Despite what so many comentators are saying here, Republicans can think. They must know that Social Conservativism looses too many votes. You can only win if the fundamentalists are locked up until it is time to drive them to the polls. That is after all why McCain was chosen. He was suposed to be a Fiscal Conservative.
So what happens next? Do the few remaining moderates get up on the stage at the next Rep conference and say "It's ether us, or it's nothing"?. Maybe. It all depends on wether there are enough left to be heard.
And thus my point. Greg is one of those last few who could turn the Republican Party around. If he takes the post he will never get the chance. Instead he will be encoraging another future. One where Moderate Republicans are welcomed with open arms into the Democtatic Party to leave a rump of religious fanatics.
wv. phishoti - oficial mafia title for the leader of their computer scam ring.
If, as people are suggesting, Governor Lynch would likely appoint one of the scum to replace Gregg, then there is really no point in Obama picking him for Commerce. It's bad enough that Michael Bennet, Roland Burris and Kirsten Gillibrand were appointed. Even with Sen. Franken the Senate has somehow shifted to the right.
BTW, who would have guessed that Delaware would get it right? Also, the fact that I don't even know who Delaware's Governor is pretty much sums it up.
I don't think the question is whether Gregg can be re-elected in 2010, the question is about his future ambitions. Commerce is a high-profile position, and after serving Obama he can easily re-win his seat with new political capital, run as Pres or VP on the Republican ticket, run as a governor, whatever. Stuck as a minority player in an obstructionist party in the Senate for eight more years builds zero political capital for the future.
The Republican party has become nothing but social conservative, and their rejection of the bailout followed by acquiescence after bribes proves they pay nothing but lip service to fiscal conservatism. They have left Gregg behind, and he should leave them behind and look out for himself.
The economy is going to recover, it always does. Obama will get the credit. As Commerce Secretary Gregg can share a big part of the credit and attribute it to fiscal conservatism and bipartisan agreement with Obama. If Obama offers it, this is a no-brainer, no matter how much it hurts the currently constituted Republican party. It is going to die anyway, he might as well build himself up to a leadership role for when they finally accept defeat.
Izanagi said...
Kylopod said
"Carter is the only president in U.S. history to decisively defeat the party in power, serve one term, and decisively lose a reelection bid against the other party."
That is not correct. Carter barely beat Ford in 1976
Did you even read my next sentence? Here it is: "I am using the word 'decisively' to exclude an electoral/popular split." The fact that his win was extremely narrow and arguably a fluke, whereas Obama's 2008 win was much wider and virtually inevitable, only further supports my point that it will be very difficult for any Republican to beat Obama in 2012, no matter how good or bad a job he does.
Kylopod... What about John Tyler? He was rejected by his party when he wanted another term, and so was Fillmore, if I'm not mistaken. But I digress...
There has been a certain amount of hysteria over the "magic number 60", not unlike the turmoil surrounding the untrammeled power of the filibuster before cloture rules were instituted in the 1960s. Perhaps it's time to trammel it even more. I think it is high time the cloture rules were changed so that only 55 rather than 60 votes would be needed to invoke it. As it stands, too much power is given to very weak minorities, such as now. Is it doable with the present Senate makeup? Probably more so now than at any foreseeable future point. Does it take a 2/3 vote to accomplish such a change? That I don't know, and am hoping others here can clear that up.
wv grandi: Spanish nobleman who becomes a Playboy bunny.
Prophecy : Obama may change course and direction on foreign Trade -
Judd Gregg for Secretary of Commerce ??
A Very Big Friend of Latin America and Latinos, a friend of Foreign Trade !
Let us assume that this Rumor is False
But the Rumor has a lot of meaning and significance. The rumor is important, ther rumor has a point and implication. Rumors are not born in a void but have a context.
I would add this maxim of Ancient Times Before Christ :
"You obtain power pandering to the Poor, but you exert power with the Rich."
"Get power with the left, Rule with the Right"
This is from Ancient Greece.
Note and Explanation :
Those that have Power, Money, Political Clout, Corporation Empires, etc ... enjoy increasing their fortunes. Foreign Trade and Increasing Foreign Markets is good for their pockets and wallets. They do not fear Foreign Competition and do not fear Foreigners.
The Rich and Powerful have travelled, know other languages and other Nations. They are not scared by Trade and Commerce. They are not scared by Foreign Languages.
Prophesizing.com
Milenials.com
Vicente Duque
Pragmatus: Tyler and Fillmore never were elected to begin with. They came to the presidency via succession and then ran for a second term, but it wasn't a reelection bid. I was talking about presidents who sought reelection.
@Mainer: It is not a cult of 60, 60 is an actual legally prescribed threshold value that makes a pragmatic difference.
It's NOT "legally prescribed", it's just a Senate RULE that the senators have adopted for themselves. They could change it tomorrow if they wanted.
But Parties DO change direction. Despite what so many comentators are saying here, Republicans can think. They must know that Social Conservativism looses too many votes. You can only win if the fundamentalists are locked up until it is time to drive them to the polls. That is after all why McCain was chosen. He was suposed to be a Fiscal Conservative.
The problem is the fundie nutbags have near total power in the Republican Party. The thinking Republicans have little, if any real power.
Don't forget, it took an insane fundamentalist to pull McCain close to Obama, and even that only lasted a week or two. The only reason the election was not a total landslide was because Palin excited the racist and christian supremest nut jobs and came out to vote for her.
Remove Palin from the equation and Obama likely wins MO, ND, MT, and possibly SD and WV. ID and UT would have been much closer, but not likely to flip.
Luckily, no one outside the small group of right wing extremists like Palin.
Huffington Post had an interesting lead today. The TITLE was WELCOME TO 1982.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/30/economy-shrinks-in-4q-at-_n_162481.html
The basic thrust is that a similar financial occurred after President Reagan tried to implement true Supply-Side (or voodoo) Economics.
The subtext, politically, was what happened to the DEMOCRATIC party afterwards. The standard bearers for the party were Walter Mondale, Midwest liberal, and Michael Dukakis, prototypical Northeast liberal, along with the likes of Mario Cuomo and Jesse Jackson.
The National Democratic party had to wait until President Clinton, with a Southern "Bubba" candidacy, to get any relative importance outside of what Tip O'Neil could control. When President Clinton was elected, the House AND Senate went conservative Republican, and virulently, with the CONTRACT ON AMERICA.
Sea changes in politics take longer than one election cycle to understand and attribute. However, transformational figures such as President Obama (and unfortunately President Reagan) change the overall discussion for many years. Only the wingnuts and true believers think that sea changes do not occur. Otherwise, they would not nominate the Michael Dukakis types or have the Sarah Palin VP choices.
The Peterson rumor is interesting. John Lynch and Walter Peterson have a very warm personal relationship. For those who don't know Walter, he was the governor from 1968-1972, a Rockefeller Republican who was defeated by Meldrim Thompson, a creature of the U-L and the fanatical Right. Walter is an iconic figure in NH politics, or at least that part that's inhabited by rational beings.
However (there's always a 'however') Walter is going to be 87 soon, he and his wife Dorothy still live in Peterborough - "Our Town" for Thornton Wilder fans - and recruiting him to step into a demanding job far from home is a tough ask, even for 2 years. Lynch may discuss it with him, even offer it as a courtesy, but I will be surprised if it goes beyond that. Still, Walter is the one GOP selection that wouldn't encounter much push-back from the Democratic party.
On the Democratic side, there's Sylvia Larson, president of the state senate and a long time friend and supporter of the governor. Behind her there's Maggie Hassan, another state senator, trained as a lawyer, very smart and accomplished, also close to the governor.Those two names jump out. Either would give NH two women senators, rather ho-hum in a state where women have attained significant presence in politics. Once you're beyond those two, the rest of the filed is 6-5 pick'em.
David
"
Don't forget, it took an insane fundamentalist to pull McCain close to Obama, and even that only lasted a week or two. The only reason the election was not a total landslide was because Palin excited the racist and christian supremest nut jobs and came out to vote for her."
Er. that is move proof of my argument than yours. Right up to the point McCain picked Palin he was doing rather well. In a democrat year he was steadily eroding Obama's leed.
He had himself as the experienced ceterist, and Obama as the extream left wing, totaly inexperienced, celibrity with dodgy friends.
Palin looked good for for that "week or two" because that is how long it took for the voters to realise that she WAS a fundamentalist. At that point all the moderate conservatives vanished. The fact that Palin was also a total blithering idiot was just icing on the cake.
Had mcCain chosen an experienced, inteligent, centerist, female running mate things might have been a lot more exciting. Snowe, as example, might now be VP.
Kylopod… I stand corrected. My mistake.
OK folks, I took a little time out to learn a few things about the Senate rules, and I have published on Daily Kos a diary regarding a way to get rid of the filibuster. Is it a good idea? A bad idea? An idea whose time has come?? Any and all comments welcome…
I've been operating under the assumption that one very tangible, significant aspect of the Democrats getting to the magic number 60 in the Senate is that it provides hope that it can finally provide the representation in Congress, in the form of a House seat and perhaps even a pair of Senators, that the District of Columbia so desperately needs and deserves.
Is this not the case? And if so, does this not alter the calculus at least somewhat (in that any seats that are added would be reliably democratic ones for the foreseeable future)?
I have no idea whether the position has in fact been offered to Gregg, or whether he'd take it. But I want to comment on some other stuff.
Those of you who think the Republican Party will literally die off soon are very unlikely to see your prophecies fulfilled. If the Republican Party survived 3+ terms of FDR and then Truman's presidency to come back under Eisenhower, it will survive this. Furthermore, lots of things can change unpredictably in politics, and there's no telling whether Obama really will remain popular and win another term - I mean, sheesh, he's been in office for only a couple of weeks so far!
As for finding Cabinet positions for Olympia Snowe, it seems to me that, even if she'd accept such a position, Obama shouldn't offer. She helps him most by remaining in the Senate, where she will vote for a lot of the legislation he wants to sign.
wv: talit. I feel like I'm in the synagogue. :-)
What if McCain hadn't chosen Palin?
These kinds of speculation always assume nothing else would have changed, that Obama wouldn't change his tactics, or VP choice, or policy statements, or whatever. Politics is a dynamic game, every move gets a counter-move.
This kind of speculation, without at least a plausible sketch of what the opposition would do in response, is ridiculous. This is a chess game, Obama's position is a calculated response to McCain's positions, constantly updated. You can always plot a successful course if you assume the other campaign will do exactly the same thing independently of any action you take, but the other campaign isn't a deaf dumb and blind robot. Obama out-played McCain and got an electoral landslide, no matter what McCain did that was probably going to be the outcome.
No one else has mentioned this, so I will. If the dems get to 60, does Lieberman jump from the caucus?
@Michael: Well, premature perhaps, but certainly in its current incarnation the R's are on the ropes, and everything they do is the opposite of what will work.
To succeed the R's have to throw the religious right overboard. Those people will either stop voting, or split between R's and D's. With the current generation of college students (and I know them very well) the intolerance of the right will not fly, period. If they don't throw the religious right overboard, they will stay a 40% party a few generations and eventually die. Parties do die!
The problem facing them now is so many have been elected based on social conservatism, and may actually believe their own rhetoric, that they refuse to acknowledge this basic political fact.
In their district or state, they can get elected on social conservatism. But what works locally will fail nationally, and that is where they are stuck. I believe the cultural changes in the 18-24 year old vote are permanent, or at least persistent for the next 30 years or so. I can't say I know for sure what kills a party, but 30 years without a president or even a congressional majority seems like a plausible cause.
Izanagi said...
Carter barely beat Ford in 1976, had the election been held 2 wks later, Ford would have been reelected.
Wrong and wrong.
1. The election was held when it was held, and although it appeared that Ford was gaining, there is ABSOLUTELY no way to predict what would have happened if the election had been held two weeks later. Conventional wisdom says that Ford MIGHT have won, or COULD have won, but since the election was NOT held two weeks later, it is impossible to say "Ford would" have won.
2. Ford never won election to the Presidency - he first was appointed as Vice-President when Spiro Agnew resigned the office, then ascended to the Presidency when Nixon resigned. Therefore, Ford, if he had won in 1980, would have been ELECTED President, not reelected.
Tony C., what do you suppose you would have said about the Republicans' prospects in 1964? They had just lost a presidential election in a huge landslide and the Democrats had control of both Houses of Congress. Did the party die? And in the long run, did Goldwaterism, or something like it, run the country? Premature is putting it mildly. This is a down period for the Republicans, but only a fool would count them out in the long run.
Er. that is move proof of my argument than yours. Right up to the point McCain picked Palin he was doing rather well. In a democrat year he was steadily eroding Obama's leed.
That is wrong, Obama had a lead from July all the way to the Palin announcement, and the weeks before it, Obama was extending his lead. McCain was not doing well at all. I religiously checked 538 and electoral-vote.com and both showed Obama's lead widening in the weeks before the convention.
The fact is that McCain never had a chance.
The announcement shocked everyone, and people mindlessly clinged on to her because she was new.
Then they got to know her...
Only the fundie nutbags stood by her by election day.
She briefly helped in the polls and then slowly dragged McCain down. His insane statements about the sound economy didn't help.
Palin is the cause of McCain's brief flirtation with the lead in the polls, and was a drag on the ticket overall, but helped secure states that were looking like they might flip to Obama.
No one else McCain could have chosen would have got the republican base out like Caribou Barbie did, but at the same time, she frightened the moderates away.
Douglas said...
I've been operating under the assumption that one very tangible, significant aspect of the Democrats getting to the magic number 60 in the Senate is that it provides hope that it can finally provide the representation in Congress, in the form of a House seat and perhaps even a pair of Senators, that the District of Columbia so desperately needs and deserves.
It's almost a certainty that the House could add a Representative for DC, especially if they add a Representative to Utah - Orrin Hatch has already agreed to such an arrangement. The DC Representative wouldn't even have to be called a Representative, just a 'voting delegate' to get around any argument about what the Constitution says in Article 1, Section 2, about a Members of the House being representative of a state.
As to the Senate - as soon as a law is passed to add Senators from DC, it will be taken to court, and I suspect the law would be overturned. The first words of Article 1, Section 3 are "The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State". DC is not a state, and that will be the sticking point.
The only method I see for DC residents to have both a voting Representative AND two Senators is for a Constitutional Amendment to create a state for DC, or to retrocede the District to Maryland.
The Constitutional Amendment route is blocked by RepubliCANTs, as it takes a 2/3 vote in EACH chamber for it to pass Congress, and I suspect that at least 13 states would not ratify such an Amendment even if it passed Congress. If less than 38 states ratify a proposed Amendment, it does not go into effect.
As to retroceding, it does nothing about gaining Senators for the Democratic party, as Maryland already has two Senators, and both are Democrats. The only thing retroceding would do is make it even more difficult for the Republicans to [re]gain one or both of those seats. In addition, Maryland would have to agree to a retrocession, and right now the political climate in Maryland would be an overwhelming "NO" to retrocession, both from elected officials and the state's population.
The only major gain would be another House member for the state.
The foremost drawback to the state would be a lot more expense to the state, and the state is already facing a major long-term structural deficit that a retrocession of the District would almost certainly exacerbate. Since the District now receives major funding each year from the Federal Government in lieu of paying taxes, water bills, extra police, fire and emergency expenses, etc., as a result of the major presence of the Federal Government in the District, but such funding being less likely, or in like amount, if the District were retroceded, Maryland would be very unlikely to take on the added expenses such retrocession would entail.
You might ask why a federal payment to Maryland is unlikely?
The Federal Government has a major presence in Northern Virginia (probably on the order of 1/2 - 2/3 of it's presence in Washington), yet Virginia does not get a direct payment such as the District does. It is almost certain that Maryland would be treated equally with Virginia (i.e., no federal payment) if a retrocession were to occur.
"Michael said...
Tony C., what do you suppose you would have said about the Republicans' prospects in 1964? They had just lost a presidential election in a huge landslide and the Democrats had control of both Houses of Congress. Did the party die? And in the long run, did Goldwaterism, or something like it, run the country? Premature is putting it mildly. This is a down period for the Republicans, but only a fool would count them out in the long run."
The Republican party cannot "disappear." They have strong support in the rural South, the Great Plains states and the northern Rockies. That won't change.
But, you have to analyze WHY Republicans became the dominant party starting in 1968 and ask WHY they are not now.
The strength of the New Deal coalition was always the "solid South" (take a look at the election map for Truman's victory in 1948 - it was southern based).
When Johnson signed the voting rights act in 1965, he said "there goes the solid South for a generation." Well, it's been almost TWO generations and they are now solidly Republican due to racist backlash against equal rights, and conservative cultural backlash against the anti-war movement and the counter-culture.
Republicans won 7 out of the next 10 Presidential elections since 1968.
What's changed?
1. Rise of younger more liberal voters. These voters aren't suddenly going to change their views and become Republicans. By the time you hit 30, you are pretty much either a conservative, a moderate, a liberal, a Democrat or a Republican or Independent. People are unlikely to change much thereafter.
2. The non-white vote went from around 10% in 1972 to 27% now. And minorities vote Democratic by around 70%-30%.
And minorities as a percentage of the total vote are increasing at the rate of around almost 1% per year towards a minority-majority around 2040.
Republicans cannot change this unless and until they change their POLICIES!
Social conservatism and fiscal restraint may appeal to rural voters, but NOT largely urban minorities and liberals.
Thus, as these segments of the voting population increase, Republicans are doomed to become an increasingly smaller minority party largely limited to the South and Great Plains as time passes.
Someone tell me why a guy who thinks the current economic situation is all about the housing market is a good choice for Commerce Secretary?
Of course, such a person is also not someone we want voting on the stimulus package... there are enough uninformed ideologues in Congress already.
So, I don't really see a win either way.
Mike, the simple solution for DC is to admit it as the 51st state ("Columbia"), except for a small area (Smithsonian Mall, the Capitol, the White House, and some other Federal buildings) that would remain under the direct control of the Federal government. 2 senators, however many representatives they are entitled to by population. Absolutely no constitutional amendment would be needed, though the Maryland legislature might have to pass a resolution of consent. I strongly favor statehood for DC under such terms. Now, whether that is currently acceptable politically is another question, but people who care about the principle of "no taxation without representation" should support and continue to push for it.
@ Oliver
If the dems get to 60, does Lieberman jump from the caucus?
No way.He's hanging on to his committee chairmanship for dear life.If he doesn't
Shouldn't it be "young'n"? I was under the impression that an apostrophe substitutes for omitted letter(s).
@Michael: Cugel made much of my argument before I got to read your reply.
In my view, the "Republican" label may survive, but they will in fact be a different party. Others undoubtedly know the history better than I, but IMO within my lifetime the Republican party of old did die with the help of Ralph Reed during the Clinton years. That whole Pat Robertson, Christian Coalition converted the Republican party into a religious party instead of a fiscal conservative party.
Bush won by Rove pitching to an evangelical base, with the aid of a corrupt Supreme Court decision and voter fraud and suppression. Al Gore's famous inability to appear authentic on stage didn't help either.
Everyone says the Republican party is now a regional party, but it is not: It is a religious party, and religion happens to be stronger in rural areas than in cities, because rural areas are less populated and exposed to a much narrower palette of cultural beliefs than are city dwellers.
However, the Internet and cable and satellite TV increasingly expose everybody to a broad cultural palette, and this is especially true among those expert in navigating the sea of information. Those are the people that grow up with it.
Although the Internet started much earlier, it was just in the late 90's that it reached significant penetration among the young. The high-schoolers of the 90's are the young voters of today. The communications revolution is turning all Americans into city dwellers, and within two generations of 2000, we will have a majority of voters not just raised with access to all this information, but children of parents raised with access to all this information.
That is an important point because parents teach children. The first generation must stumble around and teach themselves, the second generation is even more expert because Mom and Dad can help.
Obama is the beginning of the end for Ralph Reed Republicanism. I agree the label may survive, but even that will die if they don't make a drastic change in policy; and such a change would be a whole new party that does not count on the religious right or social conservatives as its base, because their brand of social conservatism (racist, homophobic, misogynistic) is failing more every year as 17 year old minors become 18 year old voters, and join the Democratic party 70/30.
The danger for Republicans is that an alternative party already exist in embryonic form; the Blue Dog Democrats. They promote fiscal restraint and accountability in government; exactly the agenda of pre-Kennedy Republicanism (as I understand it at least). More than 10% of the House is Blue Dog Democrats.
The Republican party can die and be replaced by the Blue Dog Democrats; they could secede from the Democratic party and form their own party: Fiscally responsible, accountable and transparent government, with a belief in social responsibility, progressive taxation, regulation of markets, and a right-sized government that does not pander to the religious right.
I have voted for the Democrat in every election since 1976, but I would switch to a Blue Dog party.
I think the Republican party is already dead. Their policies of tax cuts and smaller government and free markets have proven disastrous; Reaganomics failed. The strategy of courting the religious right to put them over the top has left them with nothing but the religious right as their "base", but that is the 1/4 of people that think Bush did a great job.
If they are going to survive under the Republican label they must throw the religious right overboard; let them vote as they may, and return to Blue Dog principles. And that would be a completely re-invented Republican party. This one is dead.
@ Rachel Q
How did the Paulites know how to organize? What primary did Paul win? None. Not Texas, Nothing.
As a libertarian myself (strongly supported Obama) I take offense at your assertion that libertarians are low hanging fruit for republicans. It is asinine.
@lojasmo: I used to consider myself a libertarian, but I was cured by empiricism.
Free market forces are largely mythical. The invisible hand of Adam Smith doesn't work, actually, because rationality is only about half of what goes into most people's decisions. They irrationally trust others, ignore science, and tolerate rip offs. They are irrationally lazy, taking the easy way out even when their life savings are on the line: Just ask Bernie Madoff.
Besides that, we have constructed an economic system in which short term self interest is the only one to worry about for many people. CEO's pay themselves tens of millions of dollars a year. It is not in anybody's best interest except their own, but even one year of such lavish compensation and they are set for life.
In the current economic crisis, we may have a multi-trillion dollar bailout of banks and companies. That is multi-trillion dollars legally stolen by executives and others that will walk away scot free, because in our current system, they did nothing illegal.
The fact that millions of stock market investors do not demand sensible salaries for executives ($250K or $500K a year) is proof positive that Adam Smith's "self-interest" corrective device is a failure. It simply does not work, because the same thing has been going on for nearly a century.
The idea that free markets and deregulation will work if you just wait a few lifetimes is kind of a non-starter, at least for me, because I only get this one.
I wouldn't mind living through a recession or two, I have already. But a lifelong depression seems like a steep price to pay over some principle that won't prove itself until long after I am dead.
Even Adam Smith warned vehemently against monopolies; he would be astonished we would allow a behemoth like Microsoft to exist.
Markets work when companies are forced to compete on price, quality, service and exclusivity. It fails when they can compete by frivolous lawsuit or in the halls of government with lobbyists, by pressuring customers (like Microsoft did) or by driving competitors out of business by selling at a loss, or by lying, or false advertising, or by making unsafe products or promises they can't keep (like phony insurance policies).
Stopping those underhanded tactics means regulating the companies, and that means free markets don't work. Adam Smith, like almost every economist since him, based his work on a false assumption; that people act rationally in the marketplace.
This assumption has been proven wrong in thousands upon thousands of empirical psychological studies of actual consumers and how they make their decisions. It is an oversimplification that invalidates every single one of his conclusions and those of every economist that uses it.
That is why I am a liberal, not a libertarian.
@Tony C.
A classic post.
I take interest in this discussion about whether the Republican Party could disappear.
The Democratic Party is almost as old as the Republic itself, but the opposition party has changed twice, first from Federalists to Whigs, then Whigs to Republicans.
Still, the Whig-Republican transition happened long ago, and I think our system has tightened too much since then to make it likely that any third party will gain a foothold ever again. The Republicans and Democrats can change (and they have done so, very drastically, since their births), but as institutions, they are likely to survive and remain the dominant parties.
Ross Perot's Reform Party addressed the need for a fiscally conservative but secular party, and while its failure partly reflected Perot's weaknesses as a candidate and activist, it also reflected the inherent barriers in our system that prevent any third party from ever succeeding.
Remember, in 1992 Perot received 19% of the popular vote but not a single electoral vote. Earlier that year, he had actually been leading in the polls, and his decline was precipitated by his temporarily dropping out of the race, and his unstable behavior. What if he had been a more competent candidate and had managed to win the popular vote on Election Day? My guess is that he would have won just enough electoral votes to cause the race to be thrown into Congress, who would then almost certainly have chosen one of the major-party candidates.
That very situation might actually occur in the future, and if it does, it might lead the public to reevaluate how our system works. On the other hand, it might lead to a situation like in 1912, where the Republicans get split right down the middle but still manage to survive, albeit with a different ideology than before.
A more interesting possibility is that the Republican Party will simply be out of power for a long time, as the Democrats were for almost the entirety of the period between 1860 and 1912.
Nate, I've been heading to this site ever since mid last year but man, You have no idea how helpful calm, statistical analysis is on my absolutely insane mind.
Thanks man.
@kylopod: I think your final scenario is the most likely; the Republicans stay out of power for a generation, then discover a different ideology with a different agenda and get back into power.
That will take a very long time, because about 60% of existing elected Republicans will have to literally die before a new generation will get the power to control the agenda.
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