Minnesota took until 5 PM today to begin actually counting rejected absentee ballots, as the Canvassing Board sorted through various legal objections, underwent the arduous task of physically opening more than 900 ballots, and then gave the campaigns a chance to review the back of the ballots for identifying marks. Once they finally got underway, however, with election officials calling out the names of the candidates one ballot at a time, Franken went on a long winning streak and essentially never looked back.
All told, Franken gained a net of 176 ballots from the 952 under review according to The Uptake's unofficial count, putting him 225 votes ahead in the recount overall. Excluding disqualified ballots, Franken won 53.7 percent of the votes counted today, Coleman 34.1 percent, and other candidates 12.4 percent. Franken's 225-vote advantage is now slightly larger than the one Norm Coleman held before the recount began, when he led by 215 votes based on the certified Election Night tally.
Although the absentee ballots were expected by all observers to help Franken's prospects, the nearly 20-point margin that he ran up on Coleman today was surprisingly large; two pre-election polls that surveyed absentee voters had Franken winning that group by 8 points and 12 points, respectively. (n.b. Originally missed the Research 2000 poll on this -- nrs). It should also be remembered, however, that the Democrats made a large nationwide push for early and absentee voters this year, with Barack Obama overperforming by as many as 20-30 points among those voters in certain states.
The other possibility, of course, is that the Franken campaign did a more effective job of using its veto power on absentee ballots, perhaps by taking better advantage of voter lists.
Either way, a number of legal stratagems that might have seemed appealing to the Coleman campaign might now be somewhat mooted. For instance, even if all 130 ballots that the Coleman campaign claimed were double-counted for Franken were removed from his tally (but no ballots at all had been double-counted for Coleman), Franken would maintain a significant advantage. With Franken doing so well among the absentee ballots that were counted today, moreover, any Coleman attempts to get more absentee ballots counted would seem to have a high risk of backfiring.
EDIT: It appears that Franken's lead is now 225 votes, not 223 as previously reported, based on an a count provided orally by state officials in St. Paul today.
1.03.2009
Franken Jumps Out to 225-Vote Lead on Strength of Absentee Ballots
by Nate Silver @ 6:56 PM
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AL FRANKEN
Senator from MN !!!
This is great news for NORM COLEMAN!
It's over folks
Oh, that's fantastic news! About time this whole thing got settled. Ironic, though, that Coleman will lose by more than he was winning by.
The GOP wouldn't dare filibuster the certified winner, would they? Sigh. Who am I kidding? They filibustered providing health insurance to children.
We'll see how the vote challenges by Coleman shake out.
Senator Franken!!
Time to go see how the Freeptards are doing...;)
final tally
Franken - 481 [+176 today] + 49 = 225 ahead ???
Colmean - 305
Barkley - 101
Other - ____
total did not add up to 952 as anticipated
The AP says:
"He stands to lose as many as 110 net votes if the court were to take Coleman's side on the duplicate ballot issue. Coleman's lawyers could also make an issue of the loss of 133 ballots in Minneapolis, which the Canvassing Board resolved by using the election night count for that precinct. If Coleman were to prevail on that, Franken would lose 46 votes."
So if you spot Norm 156, Franken still wins, right?
Nate, the lead is officially +225.
Now let's take bets as to how craven and silly the behavior that Norm Caleman will stoop to following this outcome...
DCM, 18 (or 19) ballots were set aside due to identifying marks on the back. This is in line with an old MN law designed to prevent people selling their votes.
I can't wait until BillO has to say it.
Senator.
Al.
Franken.
Say it.
SAY IT.
SAY IT!!!
/kinison
not sure if I would call it 'official' imho
qualify it as the most current semi-official count of those ballots considered & determined to date since the final tally will almost assuredly be revised at least once more - and probably several more times before the certification and/or lawsuits are resolved...
WV - predi
this is even better than Nate's 'predi' of the final tally in favor of Al
Awww, the Freeptards aren't even talking about it. It's the calm before the storm over at Free Republic, guys.
Watched the whole thing live on Uptake. Great coverage. I saw lots of folks saying that they'd been directed to the site by fivethirtyeight. I'd suggest giving them a donation for their efforts.
AND THIS IS GREAT NEWS FOR THE UNITED STATES!!!!
These disproportional results indicate to me that something fishy happened during the election itself. It means to me, at least, that the county boards rejected far more democratic voters than republican voters, when they were handing in their absentee ballots.
To know that for sure, it would be necessary to see all the absentee results, of course, but at least one thing is clear.
It was very nice to see that injustice at least possibly rectified tonight.
iam a fractal-i think it looks fishy too.
for all that i appreciate the good job ritchie has done. this reject pile looks weird and so does the Suprmeme Court in their ruling on rejects in the first place.
the MN public needs to start screaming if coleman wants to continue.
As you might expect Franken campaign expects to claim victory and the Coleman lawyers are saying they will contest the results.
What I find most astonishing about this, is that recounts can actually change the outcome of elections. This makes me view Bush v. Gore in a new light. I was always skeptical about the Florida recount having a chance to change the outcome.
Has Nate yet applied his statistical skills to the Florida recount, and it's chances of going for Gore?
What happens next is this. Any challenged ballots (I think there may be one by Coleman) is determined by the Canvassing Board. The secretary of state then certifies the election. Coleman will try to stop the certification with yet another emergency motion to the Minnesota Supreme Court. The Court will decline to intervene. The certification is supposed to get sent to the US Senate. After certification (but not before), Coleman can contest the election. However, since the SoS will have certified the results the seat will not be vacant and Pawlenty can’t appoint Coleman.
There will be mounting pressure to seat Franken, if only “provisionally,” while the contest works it way through the courts. The Rethuglicans will relent because the margin of victory is so large. Franken will be seated “provisionally,” as Mary Landrieu was when she was first elected to the Senate.
Coleman will decide to dismiss his contest case as he will have to turn his attention to his impending Ted Stevens-style fraud indictment. And the fake Cheshire Cat grin of the fake politician will slowly fade from view. What a disgrace he was to Paul Wellstone’s seat. Good riddance.
All in all, THIS IS GREAT NEWS FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!
Wonderful news!! What a way to start the New Year. Glad that Nate was so far off, like 500 percent. I always thought Franken was going to win by 180, but 225, this is GREAT!!
By the by, the motions filed by the campaigns yesterday to the Minnesota Supreme Court show why Franken won so big. His lawyers are smart, literate and lay out a great case with facts, figures and references to the law.
Coleman's lawyers? Pathetic. They filed a three page argument that did not eve make sense!!
Welcome Senator Franken.
@euklid- would Florida have been different?
Much of that has been done already. Gore would have won by a large margin. It was widely known on the 'Net then, but the 'Net was a lot smaller then as well
Rahoo! The fat lady (no offense) will finally sing on Monday. I love you Al! Congratulations!
ABowers, I don't think Nate was 500 percent off. He calculated that Franken would emerge with a 27-vote lead from the recount PRIOR to counting the improperly rejected absentee ballots. In fact, Franken emerged from the recount at that stage with a 49-vote lead, which was remarkably close to Nate's calculation and well within his margin of error.
'bout time the Freptards had something to whine about. Blago and Harry the Mormon have served up enough fodder this week.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2158289/posts#comment
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2158288/posts#comment
Also, I see these fuckwits are still pushing this Obama fake birth certificate bollocks.
STepper said...
However, since the SoS will have certified the results the seat will not be vacant and Pawlenty can’t appoint Coleman.
The seat is not, and will not be, 'vacant'. A 'vacant seat' occurs when there is a properly sworn-in incumbent vacates the seat, and then that incumbent vacates the seat, through death or resignation. Since Coleman's term ends at the time the new Congress meets on January 6, he no longer is the sitting incumbent, thus there is no 'vacant seat'. It is a seat that is not yet filled.
Since there is no 'vacant seat', no one can be seated (in this specific situation) by any means except by certification of the winner of the election, and that person taking the oath of office. Since that hasn't happened, Pawlenty cannot appoint anyone to the nonexistent 'vacant' seat. The only thing that Pawlenty can do is to refuse to sign the certification, but on what legal grounds he can argue on not signing is unclear to me at this time.
Whew. This is too good a moment to quibble about what Nate thought his linear regressions were predicting. Celebrate first, stats quibbles later.
Mike in Maryland, Coleman's term expired at noon today.
@Mike in Maryland
Where's the beef?
Read what I wrote, again. I said the seat won't be vacant and you apparently strongly disagreed and said the seat wouldn't be declared vacant. I think that means we agree.
However, the Senate does have the power to declare the seat vacant if it so desires. Art. 1, Sec. 5 of the constitution. To see how it works, look at this relating to a contested election for the New Hampshire Senate seat in 1975: http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Closest_election_in_Senate_history.htm
20th Amendment, right at the top.
"Section 1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin."
Because there is no successor yet, the seat is vacant.
Word Verification: besse
"Unless the lawyers handling his corruption charges are better than the Baghdad Bob that spoke on his behalf this evening, former Senator Coleman will be known as 'Besse' by his future cellmate."
Are we there yet?
Hip Hip Hurrah! Three cheers for Senator Al.
See you on Cspan to 2014 and beyond, Sen. Franken!!
O'Reilly reaching for a Bromo.
Man, I just visited the Free Republic sight. Those folks are scary.
Hi Nate--
Your use of the word "moot" is wrong. The way you mean it, moot is not a verb but an adjective. To "be mooted" means to discuss it, not to make it irrelevant.
Coleman's options have BECOME MOOT, they have not "been mooted."
@Davey "Man, I just visited the Free Republic sight. Those folks are scary."
Yup. Some of them are truly unhinged, assuming they really believe the stuff they write. As an educator (and a scientist), it makes me redouble my efforts to teach my students how to think clearly, separate facts from opinion, and how to make rational judgments about what is most likely to be the truth (or at least to be properly skeptical about unsubstantiated claims).
(Actually, extremists of all stripes seem to be fairly unmoored (sp?) when it comes to being in touch with reality. There are leftwingers, antisemites, anti-religionists, etc. that rival the freepers for sheer lunacy and violence.)
STepper,
You are technically correct that you stated the seat will not be vacant, when you said However, since the SoS will have certified the results the seat will not be vacant.
However, it is not occupied by Norm Coleman as of noon, today (thanks Sean), but is also not vacant, therefore there is no opportunity for Pawlenty to fill the (nonexistent) vacant seat.
What you wrote implied that if the SoS has not certified the election by the beginning of the new Congress (noon, January 6), a vacancy occurs that can be filled by Pawlwnty.
The lack of a body in that seat at that time is not of a circumstance that would allow Pawlenty to fill the seat, therefore the reference to Pawlenty being able to, or not being able to, appoint anyone to that seat is irrelevant and non-germane to the discussion.
That is why I posted that message, and why I disagreed with your post.
r linder - dont know... i am more afraid of the religious types then the anti-religious types. i think history will back me on that one too!
M. Joseph Goodfriend said...
The GOP wouldn't dare filibuster the certified winner, would they? Sigh. Who am I kidding? They filibustered providing health insurance to children.
I would love to see the Republicans try a filibuster in this situation.
I would love even more to see their reaction to the words "NUCLEAR OPTION"!
Freeper follies - SENATOR Al Franken edition!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1/3/191756/5607/494/679897
MN-Sen: Message to Bill O'Reilly
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1/3/203237/9201?detail=f
@livemild
I, by no means, was leaving out the religious extremists. They were subsumed under "etc." I agree that many of them are very dangerous folks. Nothing like having God on your side to make one impervious to reason and unwilling to compromise.
Sheldon -
Probably goes in the "who cares" file. But I remember reading this morning on a post (no longer here) that Nate predicted Franken would gain about 30+ plus votes in the recount of absentee ballots today. Franken actually gained 176 which is at least 5 times as many as predicted. Nate is making a backhanded reference to this in his current post as he muses on all the reasons the increase was so much larger than anyone predicted - including him.
However Nate predicted before the November election that Franken would win - so there.
Now lets all celebrate the New Year with our new, liberal, progressive, left leaning, Democratic Senator - AL FRANKEN!!
Yeah,we non-religious types don't go in much for autos-da-fe or death-by-stoning.
With the election of Franken, Minn. once again becomes the laughing stock of the nation.
Minnesota just became the COOOOLEST state in the nation.
And they voted against Ronnie Raygun too!
JACK
well that would only be a laffing stock for the shrinking RED GOPer neo-con nation...
so that would be at most about 40% [or less]
to the other 60% this is a progressive WIN so they are laffing AT you - not with you imho
as Al would say, your comment reflects:
"Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right" ['Right' is 'Wrong']
HAPPY NEW YEAR
next stop for Norm should be the federal pen where karmically he would share a cell with ol' Ted Stevens !
Latest word (perhaps) is that the State Canvassing Board plans to declare the result of the election on Monday. The Certificate of Election? Who knows. The Supreme Court is still to be heard from on the last Coleman petition and the campaign is saying they will contest the election.
No certificate of election shall be issued until seven days after the canvassing board has declared the result of the election. In case of a contest, an election certificate shall not be issued until a court of proper jurisdiction has finally determined the contest....
Regarding vacancies:
Vacancies in Congress occur due to the death, resignation, or declination (refusal to serve) of a Senator or Representative, or as the result of expulsion or exclusion by either house.
Am I right in assuming that should the Minnesota Supreme Court rule in favor of Coleman's plea to add 654 AE's to the "incorrectly rejected" group,Franken can still veto them,as per the ground rules set by the Court for today's tabulation?
Opus 132—
Yes.
The Minnesota Supreme Court declined to prevent the count today. It is highly unlikely that they will prevent the declaration of the result on Monday.
What is likely is that Monday evening, they will issue an order noting that the recount is complete making Coleman's motion moot as to the recount but without prejudice to it being raised as part of the election contest.
Under the quirks of Minnesota law, no certificate of election will be issued until the election contest is finished. That gives the Republicans a procedural hook on which to hang their refusal to seat Senator-elect Franken. (The same procedural hook that Democrats are currently using to refuse to seat Senator-designate Burris, a rule requiring a valid certificate of election or certificate of appointment.)
As to the contest itself, it looks like Coleman is hoping to reduce the margins by a net of 46 in the Minneapolis issue and 111 or so on the duplicate ballot issue. That leaves him approximately 70 votes short. His hope for those are the 200 absentees rejected by Franken and the 600 absentees raised in his late letter. From the pleadings, both claims seem to be mostly frivolous but his only hope rests on those 800 ballots.
See, here's the damn thing.
Maybe I'm mistaken here, but isn't Coleman only asking for the SoS office (or the Canvassing board, not sure) to LOOK AT THE ENVELOPES of the 600ish ballots he's identified to see if they were properly or improperly rejected?
And since these 600 ballots weren't included in the 1350 or so that the counties set aside as ACTUALLY improperly rejected, isn't there a very low probability that ANY of the 600ish were ACTUALLY improperly rejected? And if they're evaluated and found to be PROPERLY rejected, then they won't be included anyway, right?
So basically, Coleman is fishing for votes in a lake that's been cleaned out. Hoping there's one or two more that will bite. But the chances of that appear slim...
Let me know if I'm wrong.
Go, Al!
You're good enough, you're smart enough, and doggone it, people like you!
Congrats Latte!!!
I would have liked it better if they had counted them all and left the campaigns out of it, but at least they counted most of them.
Jack-Be-Simple - the laughing stock of 538 dot com and any other website where people discuss matters political.
@ Opus132
Yes, the state supreme court would have to undo their earlier ruling that allowed each candidate veto power over rejected absentee ballots. The only punishment that they included in that ruling for not playing nice were sanctions. I can't see how they could sanction Franken since Coleman was the one who said that no rejected ballots should be counted and Franken was willing to count all 1350.
It seems to me that any contest of the result owing to issues of duplicate ballots or rejected absentee ballots would require that all precincts in MN be treated the same with regard to both issues. The existence of duplicates would have to be checked everywhere, and ALL 12,000 or so absentee ballots would have to be inspected for proper rejection (including the 400-odd that the two campaigns tossed from the 1342 improperly rejected absentee ballots). Franken's legal team is too good to allow any contest to proceed on cherry-picked duplicates or rejected absentee ballots.
My conclusion is that any properly conducted contest would fail to close the gap for Coleman; instead, it would be likely to widen it. So here's to you (eventually) Senator Franken.
@polls_apart,
I agree, that is what should have happened in the first place. Why the duplicate issue and the improperly rejected absentees were not addressed as part of the recount is beyond me. To do it now would drag this thing on indefinitely, but that is all Coleman and the GOP can hope for.
Dailykos's dreamy Al Rogers is projecting Franken the winner!!!
http://snipurl.com/9fp9u
As an Obama Field Organizer, give me access to our voter file, and a name, and I can tell you how 90%+ of people voted. The margin is to account for people lying to us before the election, changed their minds, and people who never answered their phones/doors. Franken has the same database.
You really should wait before arranging the victory celebration. As most of us are probably familiar, the Democrats have an uncanny knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
The fight moves now from the ballot box and recounts thereof to the Senate floor, where McConnell has pledged to filibuster any attempt to seat Franken on the same basis that Reid is using to block Burris from taking his seat.
Now, if the Democrats had a Senate Majority leader with any fight in him, say, if Rahm Emmanuel were the Senator from Nevada and not Reid, there would be little to fear, since the GOP filibuster could be broken by cloture votes garnered from Our Ladies of Maine plus Arlen Specter, AKA the Last Three GOP Moderates in the Senate Left. But Reid is notoriously spineless and incapable of preventing Democrats with more conservative leanings and Joe Lieberman from bolting for the Right, much less in persuading Republican moderates to break ranks with the crazy bastards who have overtaken their party.
I hate to suggest that we should re-cork the champagne, but it would be premature to crow enthusiastically just yet. Our fight has only begun.
PS- for all of you who would sell out the GLBT community by suggesting this Warren thing is not a slap in our faces, fuck you all, we paid for your elections this time, with our campaign donations and with our volunteer efforts, you can all go to hell for betraying us, you shameless bastards. This will be the last time I donate even one dime to any Democrat, no matter what he promises us, and you can go suck up to Rick warren for campaign money from now on. I hope you bastards rot.
@Statler you're such a buzzkill; but you're also probably right.
But I find it hard to believe that McConnell has any grounds to do that. Nor do I think that Pawlenty would try to block it particularly if it does go to court and is upheld. I read the briefs that the Franken team and Cpleman team submitted after this most recent Coleman objection (sorry don't have a link). Franken Lawyers were spot on with their points whereas Coleman was...I have no idea where they were pulling that stuff out off.
Pawlenty would be slapping his Secretary of State and the elections board in the face, something I don't think he politically needs to do. At least Illinios' SoS has moral and likely legal grounds (the statute didn't say he HAD to certify Burris, just that Burris MUST be certified by the SoS. Splitting hairs if you ask me but If the SoS is COMPELLED to certify Burris then what use is the SoS's involvement other than being a notary public? The SoS cert seems to me like one of those situations where you need a check and balance for occasions just such as this).
Could Coleman convince MNSC to overturn these past 9XX ballots? Nothing after Florida 2000 would surprise me. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
wv: facit - just another interesting part in American democracy
@statler
WOW not only are you a concern troll, your PS just reeks...
If you want to push the gay and lesbian community to the fringe, go right ahead. It is obvious to me you have suffered alot of discrimination, but once cooler heads prevail, I am sure you will see how much good has already come out of this.
Of course you could switch parties and starting hanging out in airport bathrooms....
STepper, your otherwise excellent post earlier about the certification process in MN left out one important step: After the Canvassing Board approves the final canvas (Monday) and the Sec of State signs the certification, it is forwarded to Gov Pawlenty, who must by law wait seven days until he signs it. This is to give time for anyone to file a challenge to the election (which Coleman's attorneys have threatened.) It is also so that any voter who wants to contest the exclusion of their absentee ballot, for instance, would have an opportunity to petition to have their vote reconsidered.
So it raises the very real possibility that this ain't over yet, folks. If Coleman files a challenge during the seven day period, it would most likely also include a request for a temp restraining order to keep the gov from certifying the election until the challenge is heard. Thus, no certification could be forwarded to the US Senate, which raises all types of speculation on what they would do next.
Hopefully, Coleman's camp can do the math and realize there just aren't enough likely votes out there (the alleged duplicate votes, their likely gain from additional absentees they want reviewed, and each candidate's share of the 133 missing ballots from one precinct) to change the end result. So further legal challenges will just make Coleman look even pettier than he already does - not good if he ever expects to run for another position in Minnesota.
mbw-
Nae predicted a 27 vote lead before the absentee ballots, the lead was49. Nate, right again.
@Statler
McConnell can only delay Franken's seating until any court challenges are resolved. That will take at most a few months, probably much less given the 225 vote lead.
PS - Aren't Statler and Waldorf those real-life lovers Lieberman and Cheney. I wonder how they feel about Warren?
@ABowers
Yes, Nate got this one wrong, but not by as much as you think.
Nate's 30-vote Franken pickup "prediction" was nothing more than an observation of what the results would be if the rejected absentees voted in the same proportion as the rest of the counted vote (the precincts were slightly biased towards Franken).
Earlier, Nate predicted Franken would pick up between 50 and 10 votes from a pool of 1000 rejected absentees, relying on a survey which showed Franken 8 points up in absentee voting.
If we combine both the precinct bias and the absentee voting bias on a pool of 933 ballots, Nate would predict a Franken pick up of about 75 to 125 votes.
@mediapost-
I, too, wish they had just counted all the 13XX IRAB- But in the face of the feeble "gaming" efforts of Coleman's team, Franken's team must have felt the need to fight Coleman's sparks with a full-on, modern, effective team of firefighters. I am referring to Nate's supposition that Franken's team was using a micro rather than macro scale information to veto ballots.
@NIC- THANK YOU FOR YOU WORK and that phenomenal database we now have to build on for the future.
This recount does reflect well on MN's election system, at least relative to FL. I suspect that even a 225 lead is within the systems MOE- But I am very glad Franken hung in there all the way- I think this result says as much about Gore and Franken as it does about FL and MN. It is true Gore had a bigger battle to fight- Scalia's SCotUS is formidable-but it seems like AL F put up a better fight than AL G.
the next six years with Al Franken as a US Senator. WOW- Jon Stewart must be SOOOOO happy. Can Paterson appoint JS to Hillary's seat?
MN (not the DFL)deserves some sort of award- For a long time MA has been my favorite federal-level electorate in the union. Anyone else remember "Don't Blame Me I'm from Massachusetts". But seeing as sophisticated humor is probably one of the few evolutionary innovations in all of human's vast array of evolutionary adaptations and one of the MOST important I am very proud of the MN electorate for having such respect and appreciation for humor. Many of the very best comedians are funny because they are so smart and insightful-AND for certain the best of the best leaders (Abe Lincoln) have had a genius for wit.
my deepest sympathies to all the BIG FAT LIARS/IDIOTS out there. Looks like AL Franken will be the Honorable Senator from MN.
I think it is time to seriously talk about Coleman conceding. We like to talk about contested races as if they were sporting events and yes they can be damn exciting when they are close. However, there is a difference. After a big football game some of the people and the athletes go home happy, some go home disappointed, but there is another game tomorrow night, next week, or next year. Political races have consequences that affect peoples lives for years in in much more concrete personal and economic terms.
Yes, Senator Coleman can hold up certification and drag out the process for weeks but I don't think any objective lawyer would give him any real chance of over turning the election results. He needs to weigh the damage he would do to Minnesota and his own party by disparaging a recount process that was amazingly fair and open against the infinitesimal chance he has of prevailing in contest.
All politicians profess to be in the business primarily because they want to serve the public. This is one of the times when we see if they are telling us the truth about being a statesman first and a politician second. In 2000 after a bitterly fought and prematurely truncated recount process Al Gore graciously bowed out. He didn't have to exit. He could have drug the election into Congress and done severe damage to the legitimacy of the Bush presidency. Instead, he decided to be a statesman. We will see what path Senator Coleman decides to walk this week.
On stats and the limits of linear regression:
Nate's famous "F + 27" prediction ws not of the final results. It was intended to extract the decisions of the local election judge from under the distorting layers of challenges. It had nothing to do with the subsequent decisions of the state board, which had made no calls yet and was thus not amenable to regression analysis.
So what should Nate have predicted? Franken says (we think accurately) that he won that stage by 4. However, that included +37 from a single batch of 171 mislaid ballots, entirely outside the regression analysis.
Therefore if Nate's method worked he should have predicted C +33.
A better way to compare these numbers would be to say that the election judges added 182 to F's margin, while Nate predicted 242. My prediction for this number, based on the first round of precinct hand-counts, was 160. Nate had formal error bars of around 200, plus unknown error bars from systematic flaws in the model. I had somewhat smaller statistical error bars, with much less model dependence.
Too detailed- ok but the point is that a prediction should be compared with the result for the quantity predicted, not some other quantity. E.g. if somebody predicts what your investment returns will be for the year, you don't include an inheritance from a long-lost uncle as part of the predicted returns.
p.s. Statler- It's good to see that you're still around, even if you're still a little unbalanced.
@skeptic-
I agree that this Senate Race is much more important than a sporting event, and I would be very happy if Coleman conceded the election. But if Coleman were leading by 225 votes at this point I would probably be bitching and moaning about the possibility that this "statistical tie" had simply been called the wrong way. And I might be hoping that Franken's lawyers were trying to get the more than 12,000 rejected AB counted.
I hope Coleman concedes, and I am happy that Franken is almost certainly going to be certified and seated. Nevertheless, this election was too close to call with out some kind of instant runoff. I am pretty confident that Franken would have won but damned 225 out of 3,000,000 votes- if it had gone the other way I'd be pissed!!!!!!!
I also forgot to mention that Coleman may have serious legal issues coming that could impair or terminate his ability to effective serve a second term. This provides more justification for calling on him to concede now.
whoops- typos fixed.
I wish everyone would quit referring to the 133 Dinkytown votes (46 F margin) as if there were some legitimate question concerning them. Those votes provably existed, their precise count is known, and the most likely explanation for their disappearance is that they were stolen by one of the same Dinkytown precinct workers who had been trying all day to suppress student voting in that precinct.The only legal question concerning those vote should concern possible felony prosecutions of the perp(s).
The possible double counting is in contrast a legitimate issue but would not swing enough votes, even if it turns out to be real, to make a difference. The ragged nature of the absentee counting is also a problem, but it's almost entirely the fault of the Coleman campaign, and it's highly unlikely that they would gain much if anything from rectifying it.
@skeptic-
So I hear- We'll let's hope Coleman weighs his problems and gives up- I do not think Franken's team should ask for it though.
The call for a concession has to come from some other source- It would just look too goofy for Franken to ask Coleman to concede a 225 vote loss as Franken was unwilling to concede 215 vote loss.
I wonder who would win a best 2-out-of-3 count. Is there any way to know if the hand count or the machine count is more accurate? Does MN law have some justification for using the results of a recount rather than the original count, or are they relying on the idea that practice make perfect?
@mhz "Is there any way to know if the hand count or the machine count is more accurate?"
Yes, did you watch any of the process? Humans are a more accurate judge of voter intent and compliance with the rules. Look at all the ballots that were read by machine but got tossed for identifying marks.
"Does MN law have some justification for using the results of a recount rather than the original count, or are they relying on the idea that practice make perfect?"
The hand recount trumps the machine count. What would be the purpose of doing a hand count if it were not, by definition more accurate? Machine counts are performed because they are quick and get us results on election night with the minimum number of people needed. In 99% of elections the margin is outside of the margin of error of this "crude" system of machine counts. This election was one of the rare ones where a better tool was needed to find out who won.
The fight moves now from the ballot box and recounts thereof to the Senate floor, where McConnell has pledged to filibuster any attempt to seat Franken on the same basis that Reid is using to block Burris from taking his seat.
Wrong. The fight now moves to a fact-finding court in MN, via and election contest. Coleman can actually ask for a second hand recount, unlikely to be granted, but if it were, he'd have to pay for it.
All the issues we've seen already can be brought up. The missing ballots in Dinkytown is a no brainer, nothing there.
Argument can be made about disparate treatment of AE'S by the various counties, but probably won't get far.
I like the idea that Senator Coleman, as of noon yesterday, is merely honorific and historical.
The large F advantage in the AVotes suggests that the Democrats almost outsmarted themselves this election, by moving votes to an area prone to DQ. I'm all for early voting in general, and hope that standardized, low DQ rate systems develop quickly. New Mexico e.g. opened up "election day" to span a week. It was great for me, with no waiting lines and no fuss.
@Skeptic...
Generally, I agree with your "statesmanship" idea -- but only when there is a preponderance of evidence supporting the "gracious" exit. For example, McCain's thoughtful and conciliatory concession speech after he lost the election by an unquestionable margin was "gracious." Coleman bowing out in an increasingly unequivocal outcome would be gracious. However, Gore's stepping away from the very close 2000 election amid significant evidence of fraud and collusion? Not gracious. Not statesman-like. On the contrary, it would have been in diligent service to the people if he had challenged to the end the forces threatening their votes -- right down to the last vote.
Of course, as time as shown, Gore's calling was not the presidency. His passion and heat (pardon) was in fighting global warming. I admire that accomplishment, but back in 2000, on a precipice of disaster (as it turned out), his coolness, his passivity sold us out.
(I tried posting this before, but it didn't take.)
Recently I read Franken's "Lying Liars" book. It's a good read, though uneven.
Chapter 25 is one of the better parts of the book. In it, he details the memorial service for Paul Wellstone, and outlines how the right wing used it to drive a media story about the Big Bad Dems, using a memorial service as a partisan political event (for shame! Have you no decency?). He describes what really happened, and convincingly takes the right-wingers to task for their manipulation, which certainly affected the 2002 results--that is, it may have seated Coleman in the Senate.
In the chapter, it's clear that Franken loved and respected Wellstone. It's clear that he believed that the political use of his death was almost entirely on the part of the Republican Party and their allies in the media. It's clear that he thought it a complete travesty.
Right now, looking at an apparent victory, I picture Franken, in a quiet moment, musing, "This one's for you, Paul."
wv: wavie: Wavie Bye-bye, Normie!
@ Gabrielle
In 2000 the SCOTUS carefully crafted a decision that gave Gore no further options other than to contest in the House. I agree that it was an awful decision but the election was over at that point. Remember too that the Republican controlled Florida legislature was fully prepared to seat the Bush electors even in the event that the recount showed that Gore had won. The Bush v Gore decision spared them of having to take that greedy step. Also remember that not one Senator would join the House Black Caucus in objecting during the acceptance of the EC votes. Gore knew his chances were nil in the Congress.
@ Michael(mbw)
Did the SoS ever publish enough information to determine the outcome if all challenges had been rejected? This report is not sufficient.
My favorite Franken book: Why Not Me?
You gave two reasons that Franken could've done better than expected on these absentees:
1. He over-performed polls on absentees just like Obama did.
2. He used his veto more effectively.
What about a possible #3.
3. Voters whose absentee ballots were more likely to be erroneously rejected tended to vote for Franken.
For instance - a ballot that might be questionable as to whether it should be counted because the envelope was marked slightly off or not exactly correctly was more likely to be cast by a low-information Franken voter.
Minnesota Secretary of State Ritchie was quite direct after the counting of ballots last night in saying that he expected to certify the recount on Monday.
Furthermore, he vigorously defended the process and stated that he expected no challenges (contest) after the parties had time to consider the situation.
Of course time will tell (and the MN Supreme Court still has one case pending related to this election). But by implication he was stating that the challenges that might be contemplated were frivolous.
I don't think he would have hung himself out there if he didn't feel strongly about the outcome yesterday or the eventual outcome.
Biting the hand that feeds you soon leads to starvation.
@justlooking- I'm using the Franken-released number. They've been honest on everything we can check, and their number looks consistent with everything else.
Really- your favorite is 'Why not Me'? It has some great passages, but overall I can't see it as competing with 'Lies..' or "Rush...'.
Coleman's lawyer is blathering about Franken's 225-vote margin being an "artificial lead".
Like any other vote margin in either direction wouldn't be equally artificial.
Like elections, any elections, aren't equally artificial.
Man-made, y'know. Not occurring because of the inhuman laws of nature.
@ Eric
What does DQ stand for?
(And while I'm at it ,what does AE stand for? Absentee What? Envelope?)
Thanks.
Opus, Opus, Opus.....
DQ = Dairy Queen and AE = American Eagle. Haven't you been to a mall lately?
sigh
I prefer Why Not Me because I like my satire non-partisan. My favorite from Limbaugh: the one entry in the index not about Limbaugh's weight.
Statler-
It's good to see you smile again.
I wonder why the Minnesota Supreme Court hasn't yet ruled on Coleman's petition to count some 650 absentee which he claims were incorrectly rejected.Sounds a bit ominous for Al.
Does Franken have a similar list in reserve in case Coleman's petition is granted?
WV: drprize An extra bonus Pfizer gives to doctors who prescribe its drugs.
Opus,
Yeah, it,s the same one he's been calling for since the beginning. If Coleman wants those counted, count em all. Every wrongly rejected ballot should be reviewed, all of it.
And I'll smile alot more broadly when these assholes stop screwing their base. What do I look like, an ATM? You want my money, then you gotta show me some respect. I am under no legal obligation to donate money to anyone, least of all a party that picks Warren to deliver it's opening sound bites.
Fuck, I sound like my Dad
Statler-
No.
The 650 votes Coleman wants added to the Incorrectly Rejected ballots are now in the Correctly Rejected group.Franken wanted all the Incorectly Rejected group counted.
Well, if they have already been correctly rejected, he can have them looked at, to make sure they were in fact rejected properly. Assuming the rules have not changed for what constitutes a properly rejected ballot and what does not, then those previously rejected properly will once again be rejected. This will not affect the eventual outcome, and will only drag things out a little longer. It also drains the RNC's war chest the way the Chambliss-Martin fight did, and leaves them in a slightly weakened position.
In the short term, Al Franken sits in limbo, int he long term, the GOP is weakened financially. If they want to fall on the knife that badly, let em.
@Skeptic:
I appreciate the brief reminders, even though it is tormenting to review the details of betrayal. Back in 2000 they seemed to come at every turn...
I remember waiting for one outrageous decision and/or event after another. All of those political shoes... dropping one after the other...
Yes, technically, realistically, Gore did what was acceptable to many, but I still think he should have done what was needed: push against the the tide as the unrealistic renegade, battling for the will of the people! His efforts in the House, even if futile, or perhaps especially if futile, would have brightly lit that panoply of organized collusion, greed, and outright cockiness of Bush and his supporters. Gore may have sustained back-breaking criticism for doing it, but held against what was to come, he would have been redeemed. In fact, his efforts may have *influenced* how we handled what was to come, how we accepted, or did not accept the BushCheney presidency. Maybe BushCheney would not have clinched re-election. Who knows?
It's all moot. Gore had another path.
That is some pretty crazy stuff.
Jess
www.Privacy-Center.net
@ Gabrielle
Who knew Bush - Cheney would turn out to be such a freaking disaster for the country? I actually sort of bought in to Bush's kinder, gentler, brand of conservatism. As it turns out what that meant is that they really meant to get some Vaseline but it slipped their minds.
Who knew Bush - Cheney would turn out to be such a freaking disaster for the country?
Anyone who spent more than a hour researching Bush's history knew he would be a disaster. It was all there on Bushwatch, Bartcop, etc etc etc.
Bush was giggling murderer when he was Texas governor. There was never any reason to believe, none, that he wouldn't be one evil fuck of a President.
If that wasn't enough, Cheney and and all of Bush's cronies being involved in the PNAC was completely damning.
It was completely predictable the disaster Bush would wreak on the American people. Turned out quite well for his cronies tho, as also planned, big oil, military industrial complex, big polluters, 'security" contractors, and the ultra elite.
Greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world from the poor and middle class and the government, to the ultra rich.
Who knew Bush - Cheney would turn out to be such a freaking disaster for the country?
If you want to see what was really known check out the Onion "our long nightmare of peace and prosperity is finally over" realize the date on it and look at the predictions, they did not miss much.
repeat after me...
Left is right, and Right is WRONG !!!
happy new year, STAT
Actually, almost everyone I knew in 2000 realized how fucking insane Bush-Cheney was. I and a few others held our noses and voted for Al 'I supported the DOMA' Gore out of fear of Bush, but alot of my friends voted for Nader, too. Nobody I knew at the time voted for Bush-Cheney.
In fact, it was not until 9/11 that anybody I knew or even anyone in my city spoke well of Bush at all. Most folks thought he was Comic Relief at best and a fucking idiot at worst. When he reinstituted the Gag Rule, everyone took notice and objected vociferously.
@greenlibertarian-
thanks- someone had to say it-
who knew? Kinder Gentler conservatism? This from the man who had signed off on (I think) more death orders than ANY OTHER AMERICAN IN A CENTURY and possibly ever.
BTW When are we going to get rid of the death penalty??
I could care less about the Dem. caucus, it is the O'Reilly Factor that has me doing back flips down Broadway. Six plus years of torture for billo.
SENATOR AL FRANKEN. Sounds good to me! Awesome news.
The election is really a statistical tie. I say settle it with some extreme tiddly winks.
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