1.11.2009

Counties to Coleman: What Part of 'No' Didn't You Understand?

Thus far, the third time hasn't really been the charm for Norm Coleman:

The campaign rests much of its case on 654 absentee ballots that local officials rejected for not complying with state law. Coleman wants the three-judge panel that will hear his lawsuit to include those ballots, most of which come from rural and suburban areas favorable to Republicans.

Although those ballots weren't reviewed by the state Canvassing Board during the recount, some local election officials sifted through them as recently as last week after the suit was filed to see whether some should be counted.

Inquiries to a sampling of those counties and cities show local officials standing by nearly all of their earlier decisions:

• Goodhue and Anoka counties maintained that their combined share of the 654 ballots -- 22 -- should be excluded.

• In Minnetonka, City Clerk David Maeda said he saw no reason to include any of the 14 ballots he reviewed. "I was concerned that I missed some," he said, explaining why he reviewed them after Coleman filed his suit. "I think all [of them] that I looked at were properly rejected."

• Scott County's election supervisor, Mary Kay Kes, said she wouldn't include any of the 32 disputed ballots from there.

• Dakota County's Joel Beckman, the county's chief election official, said he quickly looked through a half-dozen of the 94 ballots Coleman included as part of its list. "Every one of them was rejected for good reason," Beckman said.

• In Stearns County, election chief Walz said more than a dozen ballots Coleman wants reconsidered "were technically deficient without much debate."

• The only county sampled that reported changing its mind was Mower, which decided that signatures for one rejected ballot matched after earlier ruling otherwise. But Auditor-Treasurer Doug Groh defended the rejection of the other ballots.

To review, these are absentee ballots that had already been deemed by the counties to be invalid -- once on Election Night, and then a second time upon the court-ordered re-evaluation of absentees in December. It is not surprising that their minds haven't been changed the third time around. Surely there are a handful of legitimate errors here and there -- and by all rights, they should be identified and counted. But the notion that the counties were manifestly sloppy to the extent that they had 654 false negatives was never credible.

In addition to those cited in the clipping above, Ramsey and Pipestone counties have also re-re-evaluated their absentee ballots, and they also didn't come up with any that they felt differently about. If we put these various anecdotal examples into a running count (making a few educated guesses about the precise tallies in certain counties), we find that Coleman's winning percentage is somewhere in Detroit Lions territory:
County
Ramsey 0/50
Scott 0/32
Goodhue/Anoka 0/22
Stearns 0/15
Minnetonka 0/14
Mower 1/10
Dakota 0/6 (partial count)
Pipestone 0/2
----------------------
Total 1/151 (0.66%)
So far, the counties appear to have sorted through about 150 ballots from Coleman's list of 650, and they've come up with one discrepancy. At this pace, Coleman is on track to get a grand total of ... 4 additional ballots counted. Given his luck, they'll probably turn out to be Franken votes.

To be fair to Coleman, he probably doesn't care very much about what the counties think about these ballots ... his goal will be to have the Court tell someone else to take a look at them (perhaps the Court itself) in the hopes that they'll have a different opinion.

But his batting average simply isn't going to be very high. It sounds like the vast majority of Coleman's complaints concern cases where the signature on the ballot doesn't match the signature on the voter file. This requires some sort of a judgment call, I suppose, but it is nevertheless a perfectly valid reason for rejecting a ballot.

What I suspect Coleman did to come up with his list of 650 is something like this:

- Create a database of all ballots that were rejected for a non-matching signature ... maybe there were 1500 of these or something statewide.

- Run some algorithm to determine the likelihood of each of these 1500 ballots being a vote for Coleman as based on things like the precinct the ballot was cast in, any information Coleman has about the voter in his voter file, and perhaps even the voter's name (you can tell more than you'd think about someone based on their first and last name).

- All ballots determined by this algorithm to have a >50% likelihood of being Coleman votes were included on his list ... there turned out to be about 650 of these.

To be sure, in undergoing this process, Coleman came across a few ballots that almost certainly were rejected in error; these became the examples that he highlighted to the courts and to the media. But it's a bit like that old shtick you'll see in third-rate gangster movies, where the Million Dollar Briefcase turns out to have a few $100s conspicuously placed at the top of the pile concealing a mass of $1s. Coleman has a tip, but no iceberg.

140 comments

phil said...

And no clue.

SealPiano said...

Recount fail. Second!

Davy said...

Why won't this guy go quietly into the night?

Leitmotiv said...

The last breath of a dying senator from Minnesota... *fumbles for anything in reach*

Do you hear that? He's flatlining...

Juris said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Juris said...

He won't go quietly into the night because he needs a job, an income to make payments on his $750,000 home mortgage, which as it happens is an upside down mortgage because his house is probably worth only about $600,000 in today's market.

walt526 said...

"Come back here and I'll bite your leg off!"

Henry said...

NATE, "In 25 precincts, most of them Franken precincts, there were more votes cast than showed up at the polls." This is John Fund on the Fox news "Journal Editorial Report" a few minutes ago. I am trying to think of some way to put a stake in the heart of this lie. Suggestions?

Nataraj said...

If you know the name yu can do a lot more. He can check against his dtabase to see whether is are republican voter. He could even ty to call and find out .. is that legal ?

Brad said...

Let's see - Coleman needs a job to support his mortgage, for renovations that tried to be paid for by a contributor that has now led to an FBI investigation...

Kinda sounds like Coleman neds to find a firm in MN that will make him a partner before his name is complete mud.

radio303 said...

Mr. Silver, i understand that Mr. Coleman plays his game annoyingly and if they shoot at 'us' on Fox, 'we' shouldn't turn the other cheek, but 'we' are not the ones to freely laugh when 'we' have 200-something votes out of millions and with an electoral contest approaching. i'll cross my fingers for your luck, sincerely.

Lupercal said...

senator voinovich just announced his retirement for '10.

Caredwen said...

Henry--

Nate debunked the 25 precincts story in one in the 5th paragraph of this post (not including the WSJ excerpts):

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/01/did-wall-street-jorunal-fire-their-fact.html

Michael said...

Henry, of course there were more votes cast than showed up on Election Day. It's called absentee voting.

lojasmo said...

The Mower county election official was an obvious anti-franken toolbag during the reocount and absentee procedures.


WV: enessem: essenem for dyslexics.

e3323 said...

Lupercal: Do you have a source for voinovich announcement to retire if so...post away.

jwhit said...

Nate, you're the second person I've ever heard use the 'tip but no iceberg' line. The first was our former Australian Prime Minister, Paul Keating. Where does it come from?

e3323 said...

nevermind i found it:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/11/sources-voinovich-to-retire-from-senate/

Wow this is the 3rd republican senator to announce retirement since the november election (4th if you include brownback but he announced retirement a long time before the election). I guess republican know they're in a lot of trouble.

Vote said...

He appears to have a valid case for the double counted ballots, in SOME Ramsey County precincts, but not enough to swing the result. It appears as though Norm Coleman is fighting human error?

Mule Rider said...

I've warned you Nate....warned you not to tangle with me...to try and suppress me. You have overstepped your bounds by having my previous google account revoked.

This bitter rivalry is just getting started. I won't stop until I'm satisfied with the outcome...if that means coming to Chicago and beating you within an inch of your life, then so be it!

Mule Rider said...

I'm waiting for a response, Nate. Or are you going to keep being a big, flaming pussy.

I can't express in words my deep resentment for you and just how bad I want to choke the life right out of you with my bare hands.

Joe Benevides said...

And Mule Retardation is back! I warned months ago that he's dangerous. Nate needs to get a comment moderator on this site.

billbg said...

Nate wrote: "This [verifying signatures] requires some sort of a judgment call, I suppose, but it is nevertheless a perfectly valid reason for rejecting a ballot."

I'm a Franken fan. To be fair, however, Coleman's camp isn't arguing that the court should count ballots with invalid signatures. Their argument is signature standards should be uniform across the state.

If DFL-leaning counties have relaxed signature standards and Republican-leaning counties have strict ones, then voters are not being treated equally.

Mule Rider said...

Nate needs more than a comment moderator. He needs a body guard to even have a chance.

If/when I make it to Chicago in a few weeks, I'm going to look him up and plan on literally beating him within an inch of his life.

That's my warning. He'd better watch his back. Because I'm not playing around, and I will gut him like a fish.

Edward said...

Totally unrelated, Nate, but since Congress had its joint session last week, shouldn't the "provisional" be removed from the electoral vote pie chart on the front page?

Chris said...

...So.

Who likes pie?

Anyway, Voinovich is gone in '10? I wonder how much of a chance the Dems have of flipping that seat, then. I heard he was in for a tough re-election race there.

...on the other hand, I don't know how to take it. I have the feeling that his Repub replacement will be an ideologue in the mold of Inhofe or someone like that, and isn't Voinovich a moderate? I'm the kind of guy who - while I'd prefer having a plurality of progressive legislators - still thinks there's a need for having moderate opposition. And I don't really care about the letter next to his name, either.

As for Coleman: They did the recount, Franken came out ahead, and the ballots he's trying to get counted have been rejected TWICE so far. In all discretion, I've been rooting for Franken (yeah, party loyalty; but also karma, the fact that my ideology matches Franken's more closely, and the fact that it's going to be hilarious if Coleman loses to both a professional wrestler and a comedian), but I can't really see how they could have statistically made mistakes TWICE.

Further, Coleman would have to count on those ballots going 65% for him to stand a chance of making up enough ground. And if he's cherrypicking ballots as it seems he's doing, that makes his gambit even more transparent. I'm not surprised he's getting smacked down.

Chris said...

And in response to billbg:

I'm half and half. I do see where you're coming from. But - forgive me for being jaded - if those ballots are disproportionately from Republican counties and precincts, as opposed to DFL-leaning counties/precincts, then I seriously would have to question his motives. Even if I loved him.

When I say "disproportionate," I mean "in regards to rejected votes." For example, if 10 absentee ballots were rejected in Anoka County, and 50 in Hennepin. If 3 Anoka ballots were challenged twice, I'd probably expect to see 10-20 or so Hennepin ballots (most likely 10). Now if he's challenging all 10 of the Anoka ballots, I'd probably expect to see a large majority of Hennepin ballots as well.

If he's challenging 10 Anoka ballots and 5 Hennepins? There could be a procedural reason (ex., the Anoka officials were invalidating ballots because the i's were a micron off while the Hennepin officials allowed through anything that didn't have a mule penis in the signature box), but it seems - given the recount's transparency - to be more cherrypicking results.

Andreas said...

Yeah. Seriously. Fuck getting a comment moderator: Nate needs to call the police.

Blame said...

I am sort of hoping that Colman tries again. Perhaps he can run against Mule? Then he can be beaten by a wrestler a comedian AND a clown.

wv - bactiess. Titled female bacteria. Roughly eqivelent to a dutchess in status only smaller.

Mule Rider said...

Nate told me to never post on here again. He said he was notifying Google and the Secret Service about me.

Seriously?! Is that all the little pussy has for me? I defy him. His threats will not discourage me. I will hunt him down. He will suffer mercilessly. Those of you who stand in the way will meet the same fate. I will butcher you!!

billbg said...

In response to Chris:

I'm not suggesting Coleman didn't cherry pick the ballots he wants counted. He almost certainly did (and is entitled to do so).

All I'm saying is he might well have a legitimate reason to challenge ballots that counties have rejected because of mismatched signatures.

Nate's comment in the article seems to imply otherwise.

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

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Mule Rider said...

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Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

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Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

I'm warning you, Nate! There will be blood!!

Mule Rider said...

Scared yet?! You should be!!

Mule Rider said...

Scared yet?! You should be!!

Mule Rider said...

Scared yet?! You should be!!

Mule Rider said...

Scared yet?! You should be!!

DCM in FL said...

Burris will get his seat, probably this week from the sounds of Dick Durbin's latest..

'No. 2 Senate Democrat hopes deal near on Burris'

@ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090111/ap_on_go_co/senate_burris_3

hope that OH DEMS put up a real progressive senate candidate to replace Voinovich in 2010 - one like Al Franken !

DCM in FL said...

some azz of a troll acting out...

DNFTT

also, let's hope that in 2010, the IL DEMs put up a good progressive candidate to replace Burris

Mule Rider said...

DCM in FL,

Don't even think about interrupting me as I threaten Nate. I will come to Florida and butcher you, you worthless scumbag. Chop you up into little pieces and feed you to the fucking alligators!!!!

Skeptic said...

Nate,

Please consider a moderated forum at 538. Even without the assholes like Mule Rider this comment format is horrible. It is difficult to read. There is no edit feature or spell checker. it also doesn't work well on Firefox. I have to post in IE because the word verification feature is broken in Firefox.

As we have seen, all it takes is one idiot to royally screw things for a few days. I have enjoyed visiting this site and reading the comments from the latter part of the election campaign through the MN recount. However, dealing with a crippled site has me considering spending my time elsewhere.

Mule Rider said...

I will kill DCM in FL and Skeptic!!!

Mule Rider said...

I will kill DCM in FL and Skeptic!!!

Mule Rider said...

I will kill DCM in FL and Skeptic!!!

Mule Rider said...

I will kill DCM in FL and Skeptic!!!

Mule Rider said...

I will kill DCM in FL and Skeptic!!!

DCM in FL said...

Moderator would be OK, but...

sock puppetry & spammers are just a price we pay [even if it is extorted]

it isn't all that hard to scrollpast the dreck & mine the thread imho

especially using the comments in IE in a full-sized window viewed on another tab

Blame said...

Arrrrggg

Mule has cloned himself. Muliple & Mindless. What an awfull combination.

wv ornit - Northern English stinging relative of the wasp. This insect is socialy inferior so is never mentioned by people of class.

morzer said...

it's not something you see every day: an ass riding a mule. Seems to be a sad little creature. Might be a good time to start moderating comments while the FBI hunts down the scaly little troll.

DCM in FL said...

and a silly pathetic troll of a sock puppet at that...

Mule Rider said...

If you egotistical windbags think for a mother-fucking second that the FBI or any "authority" gives a shit about threats made against a bunch of liberal, lowlife scum on some shit-hole blog, then you are badly mistaken.

I could hunt all you motherfuckers down, murder you, chop you up into little bitty pieces, and feed you to your closest relatives and friends, and no one would know the difference.

Hell, I'd be doing society a favor. You wackos don't need to be appeased. You need to be destroyed. And I'll take you out one-by-one. Starting with Nate. A target is on his back, and I'll make sure he dies a slow, merciless death.

STepper said...

Sadly, we now need a moderator, and maybe a better interface. The 15 year old pimply face masturbator in mommy and daddy's basement needs to be removed for all time.

morzer said...

Mule Rider, you wouldn't know how to deal with a man in your wildest dreams. But if you do come anywhere near Nate, he'll just kick your teeth down your throat, and for the rest of your life you'll service your clients through your nose.

Now, it ought to be possible to write a script to automatically remove the pathetic little worm from circulation. Nate, you know some smart tech people, put down some bucks and sanitize the blog, please.

DCM in FL said...

ignore the sock puppet troll

he will get bored & go elsewhere

but feeding it or even commenting is counter-productive

I know, I just did but...

PLEASE DNFTT

Mule Rider said...

Add STepper and morzer to the hit list. You two just want to die, huh? And I'm glad you underestimate me in thinking I'm a "15 year old pimply face maturbator in mommy and daddy's basement."

That only emboldens me. To kill you. All of you. If you're not scared, you damn sure should be. I will literally take your lives with my bare hands, and in most cases, I'll make sure you die a slow, painful death.

Don't believe me. Try me. Give me your contact information or address. See if I don't show up and literally kill your asses.

Keep taunting me, and I'll resort to hacking as I've done before to find people to terrorize them. I have no qualms about ending your lives. I will butcher you. I will make you scream in pain and horror.

I will harm your families. I will sever your pets' heads and display them around your homes and apartments.

Just try me. Do it. I double fucking dog dare you.

ssmith said...

Oh Mule Rider, please hunt me down first. I will enjoy using your eyeballs to garnish my evening martini.

DCM in FL said...

SMITH

tastes great with fava beans...

but do not expect to get any sweetbreads from that numbskull...

morzer said...

Anyone want to bet that Mule spends his days reading old comics and practicing speaking in a manly voice? Mule, you've got no credibility, and you've never hacked anything in your life. You'll be here tomorrow and in a week's time, until you gte booted, shrieking little insults and being mocked by everyone else. The rest of us have lives, work and esteem in our communities -but, of course, a sad little loser like you doesn't understand any of that. So come on, howl for me, Make some threats - because you make me laugh. And the more you yap at me, the more I am laughing at you. Just remember it when you try and talk tough. Howl, loser, howl.

Davy said...

Hey AssRider. If you wouldn't mind giving me your street address, I could drop by and show you some some fish gutting techniques. You know, for when you get ready to go on your vendetta tour? Seriously, I know some good stuff.

yazzel said...

Mule, does your mom know you plan to leave kindergarten and go on the Mule Rage tour? Do you have enough lunch money?

Brian said...

Instead of everyone posting their own addresses and having you travel all around, how about you post your address and we will individually schedule a time to come over so you can kick our asses. Much more efficient that way.

yazzel said...

I am pretty sure Mule doesn't know his address. His Mom probably just writes it on the piece of string she ties around his neck before he heads off to kindergarten.

LDW said...

Perhaps Coleman's strategy is to hope to submit sufficient evidence of overall error and lack of consistent standards, such that the probability of Coleman acquiring 225 more votes than Franken (in a perfect world with perfect uniform standards and no error)is at least as probable as the results of the recent recount (with Franken ahead by 225 votes).

If he can make a convincing case, he might be able to convice the MnSC (or the US Senate) that the only reasonable remedy is a new election. But this time only between the top two vote-getters - Coleman and Franken.

Such an approach might have legs, given the number of votes the 3rd top vote-getter obtained.

yazzel said...

LDW, the problem is that Coleman doesn't seem to have much to back such a strategy in terms of evidence. That's why the wingnuts are being mobilized to jump up and down and howl about stolen elections. It's the only form of pressure Coleman has left.

Pragmatus said...

Off-topic I know, but needs to be said I think...

I predict massive blanket pardons will be issued by Bush over the next few days to shield almost everyone in his administration who might be caught up in the search for criminal wrongdoing during his time in office. Can he issue pardons before anyone is charged with any crime? Of course he can. One needs only look back to what Gerald Ford did for Richard Nixon.

One of the folks Bush will “pre-emptively” pardon is Dick Cheney, then I predict Bush will resign the presidency just long enough to allow Cheney to be sworn in for the sole purpose of pre-emptively pardoning Bush.

You say it can't happen? Think back over the past eight years, and the complete arrogance toward the law and ethics this administration has demonstrated. They stopped at nothing when it came to fleecing the working class and trampling on civil liberties all over the world, and my view is that they will stop at nothing when it comes to covering their butts.

Nate: You are a national recognized political figure, and have been the subject of death threats here on this forum. This is indeed a job for the FBI. I urge you to keep forwarding these threats to them.

yazzel said...

Homework and dishes, Mule, homework and dishes!

boony said...

Mule Rider

nkpolitics1279 said...

Looking at the Republican US Senators that are retiring in 2010.

Browback(KS)is retiring due to self imposed term limits plus he is running for Governor in 2010.

Martinez(FL)is retiring because he was going to face a tough re-election campaign- He was going to lose. The Republicans did not get any lucky when Jeb decided not to run.

Kit Bond(MO) and George Voinovich(OH) are both in their 70's and will face a tough re-election campaign.

Other potential Retiring Republican US Senators.
The Class of 1980
Grassley(IA)and Specter(PA)are both in their late 70's early 80's.
The Class of 1986
Shelby(AL)and McCain(AZ)are in their 70's
The Class of 1992
Gregg(NH)is going to face a tough re-election campaign. Bennett(UT)is in his late 70's.
The Class of 1998.
Crapo(ID)will remain in the US Senate until he gets caught pleasuring himself in the men's restroom. Bunning(KY)will be in his late 70's he is going to lose if he runs again.

On the Democratic Side- the most Democratic US Senators up for re-election in 2010
Inouye(HI),Leahy(VT)and Dodd(CT) occupy powerful committee chairmanships. Inouye-Appropriations,Leahy-Judiciary,and Dodd-Banking- they will run for re-election. other Democratic US Senators in their 70's Reid(NV),Mikulski(MD),and Boxer(CA)will seek re-election in 2010.

I predicting that Specter(PA),Grassley(IA),Shelby(AL),and McCain(AZ) will announce their retirments .

Skeptic said...

Cool. I get to join Nate in the elite "I was threatened by Mule boy" club. I am indeed honored to be in such company.

Back on topic:

In thinking about what is motivating Coleman to challenge I can see several possibilities:

1. He actually thinks he can win through some combination of counting doubly rejected absentee votes and overturning CB decisions on other ballots like the missing ballots.

2. He really, really hates giving up a cushy job and cannot accept the blow to his ego that losing would inflict.

3. He needs to keep his Senate job as a bargaining chip in potential bribery problems.

4. He and the Republicans will do anything they can to discredit Al Franken's election because they just cannot stand Al.

i honestly believe that it is reason #4 with a lot of reason #2 also.

Pragmatus said...

Alas, Coleman merely represents what the Republican Party has come to—a snarling, vindictive, spiteful, jealous, stingy pack of hounds. What happened to the spirit Coleman showed when he suggested, before the officially-mandated recount began, that Franken bow out of the race for the good of the political process? Coleman needs to take some of his own medicine.

As I have said before, the Senate should simply vote to seat Franken and be done with it. I seriously doubt there is anything the courts can do about such a move.

RedToBlue said...

I love watching Norm Coleman's political career die a slow, painful death.

Were I Al Franken, I'd be busy writing a statement saying that Former Senator Coleman should concede the election. You know, for the good of the people.

Mike in Maryland said...

Skeptic said...
There is no . . . spell checker. it also doesn't work well on Firefox. I have to post in IE because the word verification feature is broken in Firefox.

Speaking only for myself, I'm using Firefox version 3.0.5 right now, and I find 538.com works as well on Firefox, or better than, when using IE.

Firefox already has a built-in spell checker, so that feature is not needed if using Firefox.

As to the word verification, if it were broken, this post (or any previous post I've made at this site) wouldn't show up. Since dozens of my posts have shown up here at 538 (and I presume that this one will do so also), I would say that the word verification is definitely NOT broken.

Chris said...

And I thought I was dorky for agonizing over misplacing an anime DVD I was watching.

That said, I do agree with the architecture change - I'd be fine with something like even Gawker Media uses, where it's easier to follow threads of conversation. But I'm a Livejournal boy, so I love threaded conversation.

More on-topic, though:

1) A bit late, but better late than never, right?

But anyway, I think that while he's entitled to choose his ballots, it is really bad PR and not willing to pay off in terms of math. Of those 654 ballots, again, he'd have to win by a 34% margin - or he'd have to be right on his guesses 2/3 of the time.

2) I REALLY think that the way a potential revote could work - and that's pretty much the only way Coleman's going to pull it off at this point - is if more Barkley voters were conservative-leaning than liberal-leaning. I need a Minnesotan to back me up on this, but isn't Barkley center-left or leftist?

If he's center-right or right wing, I'd have to give the edge to Coleman in a potential revote. Which is okay (though less schadenfreudey).

Robby said...

Mule Rider

The more angrily one flails about on the internet, the more pathetic and impotent he shows himself to be. The utter lack of fear that you are evoking in this site's readership is laughable on its face.

I hope you get the psychiatric help you so desperately need, but in the meantime, I shall continue to watch your infantile tantrums with a mixture of amusement and pity.

May whatever God you worship bless you and keep you and make His face to shine upon you.

Statler N Waldorf said...

I'm amazed, actually. WTF is Coleman doing? It's hard to let go after a competitive run like this, sure, and maybe for like a week or two you could expect him to piss and moan.

But what exactly has him convinced that any of this is going to result in a victory for him? There's nothing left to count, nothing legit, anyway.

Still, while the delay in seating Franken is annoying, it means Coleman and the RNC are burning through alot of dollars to pay for all those lawyers and court costs. And the less money the RNC has to cause trouble with, the better.

I wonder why the RNC isn't looking at Coleman and seeing him as a drain on their resources? Why not cut him loose? They can't win in MN, so why not just move on to the next challenge?

Then again, Bush kinda proved that when it comes to economics and finance, Republicans sure do suck at managing a bank account, controlling spending, or thinking about the long term costs of their ventures.

LDW said...

Yazzel,

You may well be right. But it seems to me it would be reasonable to assume that the recounting process itself would probably have a margin of error somewhat greater than .01%, and that evidence could be provided to demonstrate that. And Franken's win over Coleman is by only about .008% of the total votes that were cast.

But the more I think about it, I may be on the wrong track altogether.

If the recount voting results in a statistical tie (well within the margin of voting process error), maybe state law is designed such that whoever leads at the end of the process (including an election contest) is simply declared the winner. Someone eventually must be declared the winner, and "whoever leads at the end" is no more arbitrary than flipping a coin at the end.

But it does seem to me that when more than two candidates are involved in an election and no single candidate achieves a majority of votes, a new election between the top two vote-getters is now in order. It represents the best chance for voters to truly determine the ultimate winner of the contest. As it stands now, any voters who did not vote for either Franken or Coleman really had no opportunity to choose between the two. They might have as well stayed at home (of course they might have stayed at home anyway, if they thoroughly disliked both candidates).

Opus 132 said...

For those of you who are trying to calculate what percentage of the cherry-pickrd-by-Coleman 654 absentee ballots Coleman might get if they are eventually counted,remember that Franken most likely has a similar basket of cherry-picked uncounted absentee ballots ready to be dumped on the counting table.

Franken and his people are too smart to let only Coleman selected ballots be added to the pot.

weinerdog said...

Couldn't Norm just get a lucrative lobbyist gig and make more $$? The other thing that shocks me is he hasn't responded to my request for Inaugural tickets - what's up with that?!

joebdoc said...

One wonders if Coleman's lead lawyers, who are both Minnesotans and former Republican officials (former state senator and state GOP chair) simply share Coleman's lack of insight, or whether they're perhaps just not very competent. Perhaps some outside "talent" might have helped Coleman more than they have. It is hard to believe that their "shotgun" approach can accomplish anything more than putting off the eventual outcome.

mikey182 said...

@ LDW:

> As it stands now, any voters who did not vote for either Franken or Coleman really had no opportunity to choose between the two.

I get why most of the discussion is about what the rules are as they stand, thus who wins given the current rules. What I don't get is why there seems to be virtually no discussion about how the rules might be improved in the future.

Regarding the problem above, why not move towards Preferential Voting ?

lojasmo said...

A few thoughts in no particular order.

1) What is the "margin of error, when the sample population equals 90% of the total population? I would think it to be negligible.

2) Coleman's challenge is worse than laughable. I was literally laughing my ass off as I read through it.

3) The challenge is SO ridiculous, that the panel of jurists will probably beat Trimble over the head
with it.

4) Coleman (or perhaps the RNSC) are going to go broke paying Franken's fees.

5) Mule rider should practice his stabbing and choking on himself before embarking on his world tour.

jbkeh said...

Returning to the topic, if Coleman has cherry-picked ~600 ballots out of ~1500 as likely votes for himself, does that not mean there are ~900 that are NOT LIKELY for him?

Granted, some of these will be for Coleman and some will be write-ins, but still, since early ballots will tend to skew towards Franken, should he not call Coleman's bluff and tell the court to go ahead, but expand the scope to ALL signature mismatches?

Or better yet, expand the review to encompass the entire state?

Matthew H said...

Coleman didn't get any inaugural tickets. Amy Klobuchar, or however you spell it, got a double allotment. She also had to hire an extra staffer for all the extra requests. No joke.

billbg said...

In response to nkpolitics1279:

Let's not forget about Kay Bailey Hutchison (Texas), who might resign her seat early to run for governor in 2010.

KurtTappe said...

@ LDW:

As it stands now, any voters who did not vote for either Franken or Coleman really had no opportunity to choose between the two.

Sure they did--when they voted the first time they could have been pragmatic and realized that they were tossing away their vote by not choosing Franken or Coleman. That was their opportunity and they chose not to exercise it.

Grant_X said...

So in the meantime Minnesota goes without a Senator and nothing has changed.

Makes you wonder what a Senator actually does.

Opus 132 said...

From The Los Angeles Times:

Roland Burris will probably replace Barack Obama in the U.S. Senate this week once the Senate's legal counsel completes a review, Assistant Majority Leader Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) said Sunday.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-burris12-2009jan12,0,3210261.story


Thankfully this farce will soon be over as the Democrats remove this unsightly mess from the public arena.

Opus 132 said...

I noticed that my previous post took 10 minutes to appear.Does this mean we have a moderator?

Opus 132 said...

Guess I didn't notice the message in "Post a Comment".

Yes,we have a moderator.

Bye,bye Mule Rider!

celtic_hackr said...

Nate, one flaw here in your statemnet that you can tell a lot about a voter by the first and last name. Minnesota has a very large Scandinavian population and if you've ever done any family research on Scandinavians one this is obvious. You can't tell much about a Scandinavian by his or her name, because they are mostly based on patronymic naming conventions. I couldn't begin to count the number of Lars Larsons in the family tree, many of whom weren't related to each other until a marriage occurred.

lojasmo said...

@ jkbeh


Returning to the topic, if Coleman has cherry-picked ~600 ballots out of ~1500 as likely votes for himself, does that not mean there are ~900 that are NOT LIKELY for him?

Yes. In fact, with Franken having such a huge margin in absentees, it is likely that Coleman will not pick up many votes from his 654.

I do suspect, however, that Team Franken will make a play for the broadest swath of rejected absentees available. This will have a two fold effect. If accepted, Franken is likely to pick up a LOT of votes. Either way, it is a position which will have the effect of making Franken and his team APPEAR as if they are being more inclusive than coleman....a perception which team Franken has reliably fostered all throughout the campaign...and rightly so.

That is if Coleman's lawyers aren't chased out of the courtroom by the panel of judges...being beat about the head with the lawsuit. That's the most likely scenario, in my opinion.

katiebegood said...

He won't go quietly into the night because he needs a job, an income to make payments on his $750,000 home mortgage, which as it happens is an upside down mortgage because his house is probably worth only about $600,000 in today's market.

You left out his most pressing need for money. And that is money to pay attorneys to represent him in his upcoming corruption trial.

My bet's on that being the payoff the RNC is giving him to continue to fight this election.

katiebegood said...

Henry said...
NATE, "In 25 precincts, most of them Franken precincts, there were more votes cast than showed up at the polls." This is John Fund on the Fox news "Journal Editorial Report" a few minutes ago. I am trying to think of some way to put a stake in the heart of this lie. Suggestions?


He's doing what the WSJ did. They are mixing apples and oranges. There were not more VOTES in those counties there were more BALLOTS in those counties and that's because they counted all the ballots including those that had been duplicated because the scanning machine couldn't read them.

As far as I have read, there are zero counties where there were more VOTES than voters.

Matt said...

In short, the Coleman challenges are a frivoulous lawsuit, and he and Sen. McConnell are SORE LOSERS.

Jon said...

Does anyone have any thoughts on what the Franken camp hopes to achieve with their request today for certification of the election results? Quotes I've read from the letters they sent Pawlenty and Ritchie appear to suggest they believe there's an argument based on state law that certification ought now to occur, running counter to everything else I've read regarding Minnesota state law governing the current situation. Does this make sense somehow as spin or could the Franken camp actually plan on suing for certification, hence the first step of asking nicely for it before they head to court?

Skeptic said...

@ Mike in Maryland

I cured my WV problem in Firefox by downloading the latest version of Java. Yes, I use the spellchecker in Firefox. I am glad things are more civil on 538 today. I think all of us were a bit frustrated last evening. I still think the comment section could be better. At least I would like to see an option to edit your own comments, at least for a time period. I hate it when I don't proofread well enough and typos get through that spellcheckers miss.

springer said...

I am also hoping that the RNC is wasting a ton of cash to fight a fight that has been lost. Their campaign coffers can go to zero as far as I am concerned. That being said, time for Coleman to give it a rest.
On Mulerider, thank fucking god that loser is gone! His idiocy was laughable at times during the election but physical threats to anyone is no joke. I hope he gets a visit by some very large, gun-wielding people with badges real, real soon.

Dave said...

So what would it take to join the elite "I was physically threatened by Mule Rider" club? Can I call him a meanie weinie? I'm just not sure of what type of threshold is required for the honor.

Anyways, as a Minnesotan, I really hope that Coleman does announce his intention to withdraw from th race. This is getting damned rediculous!

Opus 132 said...

@ Jon

Does anyone have any thoughts on what the Franken camp hopes to achieve with their request today for certification of the election results?

Probably to set the stage to request that Al be seatedprovisionally.

ShadowGunman said...

Ah to post once again in peace, RIT (rest in terror) Mule Rider And this whole coleman thing is almost over.

lojasmo said...

MN DFL has filed a FEC complaint against Coleman for illegal fund solicitation.

http://minnesotaindependent.com/22871/democrats-say-coleman-gop-lawyers-are-raising-illegal-election-challenge-cash

billbg said...

@ Jon: "Does anyone have any thoughts on what the Franken camp hopes to achieve with their request today for certification of the election results?"

They filed a lawsuit today in federal district court claiming the state lacks jurisdiction for an election contest (i.e., judicial election review). Franken seems unlikely to win the lawsuit, and it might end up slowing things down even more.

As for spin, the lawsuit gives a very bad impression. It makes it look like Franken is trying to steal the election by removing it from Minnesota courts and delivering it to a Democratic-controlled U.S. Senate.

I'm a Franken supporter, but this move baffles me.

green libertarian said...

The decisions being made are not by Coleman. He has input, yes, but RNC goons are calling the shots.

Franken's lawyer has already said he has over 800 rejected AE's he wants looked at, if that's the way the game is going to be played.

Asking for the election certificate and getting rejected by the SoS and Governor insures that if at some time in the process, a court rules Coleman is ahead, Pawlenty, under pressure from the RNC, can't issue a certificate without going back on his word that no cert. can be issued until all election contests are finished.

Basically, the RNC wants to drag this out as long as possible to keep a Dem from being seated, to further demonize and taint Franken, and cast aspersions on the process. The GOP has labeled Franken their "#1 enemy." Coleman's political career is finished, so it doesn't matter how bad he looks to independents.

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YoYo said...

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