One of the quirks of the unresolved senate race in Minnesota and Illinois is that it really does the Democrats no good to have just one of Al Franken and Roland Burris seated -- they only gain ground if and when both get sworn in.
This is why. Presently the Democrats have a 57-member caucus, counting neither Burris nor Franken. However, because there are currently only 98 senators, this reduces the number of votes required to break a filibuster from 60 to 59. (Vacancies are not counted when calculating the number of votes needed to break a filibuster; three-fifths of 98 is 58.8, which rounds up to 59). Therefore, the Democrats would need two crossover votes to pass a cloture resolution.
But now, suppose that Franken gets seated but Burris doesn't. The Democrats add a member to their caucus, brining them to 58 members. However, with 99 senators rather than 98, the filibuster threshold goes back up to 60 votes (three-fifths of 99 is 59.4, but the rule in this instance requires rounding up). Thus, the Democrats remain two votes shy of breaking a filibuster.
Once the Democrats get senators seated in both Illinois and Minnesota, however, they'll have 59 votes out of the 60 they need, leaving them just one vote shy -- and Sens. Specter, Snowe, et. al. ripe for the picking.
So long as it looked as though the Minnesota race was going to take a long time to resolve, then, the Democrats really weren't giving anything up by failing to seat Burris -- his vote only really helps them if Franken has been seated too. Suddenly, however, with Franken having amassed a 225-vote lead on Norm Coleman, the landscape looks different. While the Coleman campaign is still suggesting that it will contest the election, one wonders what sort of appetite Coleman will have to accumulate more and more legal bills if he determines his situation is hopeless. At the very least, the likelihood has improved that the race will be resolved within two or three weeks, rather than two or three months.
So the stakes are a now a little higher for Harry Reid: Illinois, rather than Minnesota, now appears as though it may be the limiting factor in getting the Democrats into as advantageous a position as possible.
One option that hasn't been much discussed, by the way, is that of seating Burris temporarily and then holding a special election later on. This would allow the Democrats to sort of have their cake and eat it too, getting their 59th vote for several months while still creating a relatively clean break from Blagojevich. Of course, the Democrats would risk losing their seat in the special election, but perhaps the Republicans would reward them for that risk by agreeing to seat Franken while Coleman's election challenges are pending, something they seem disinclined to do so far.
1.04.2009
Can Franken Give Burris His Daily Affirmation?
by Nate Silver @ 10:33 AM...see also blagojevich, fillibusters, illinois, minnesota, reid, senate democrats
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)

124 comments
First?
Harry Reid just said on MTP that he will not rule out Burris serving. I think that means they put on a good show, and roll over and seat him.
"is that of seating Burris temporarily and then holding a special election later on"
I am not sure that can work. If they seat Burris now, he is seated as the permanent U.S. senator from IL as that the law he was appointed under, right?
I am not sure the extra vote is a big enough deal to force the senate into seating Burris without a public and LOUD fight.
58 or 59 votes doesn't really matter that much, getting 100% of democrats or 100% of republicans is HARD, even harder after the republicans have had their A** handed to them two elections in a row. A few democrats will cross over and a few republicans will cross over and if it is that close that 1 vote will make a difference the Democrats will be able to say, the Republicans are blocking stalling and trying to harm the country!
I wouldn't be surprised if Reid would prefer a slightly bigger gap to make that argument stranger not a slightly smaller gap.
Sure the R's here are a hollow shell. Right now, at the state level, the D reputation is much worse than that. We could easily lose unless we manage to somehow keep AA Cook Co onboard and dissociate the anger of downstate and the suburbs with the state party from the fed Sen election.
Although Schakowsky would be my favorite, I think Jarett may be the best candidate to do that, partly because she's associated with Obama rather than any state faction.
What are chances that a coalition of Dem and Republican Senators decide to delay or reject Burris?
Let's not forget that Obama's challenger for his Senate seat in 2004 was Alan Keyes, with Bill Kristol as Keyes's campaign manager.
That was the best the GOP could do in 2004 in Illinois.
My favorite angle on that race was that the original Republican, Jack Ryan, (just like the Tom Clancy character) was in a sex scandal brought from beyond the grave by Star Trek creator Gene Rodenberry.
Ryan was getting divorced from the actress Jeri Ryan who came to fame in the Star Trek: Voyager spin-off, playing a Borgess, 7 of 9.
As it turned out her then husband wanted to go to sex clubs with her, which she refused to do, and had the divorce records not been made public at the height of the campaign Obama may have lost that election.
Instead, Ryan had to quit the race which is how Keyes came to try to carpetbag the seat.
More details here: http://www.wpri.org/blog/?p=111
Nate, I just don't think things are going to change in the immediate term just because Al did well yesterday. Norm will probably challenge and Reid will refer Burris to the rules committee for burial until the Illinois legislature impeaches Blago. There's no way they risk the seat in a special election just for a month or two of an extra vote. Most people think that Burris can't win statewide in Illinois, so putting him in the seat will generate a strong primary challenge and a weak general election candidate in the next election. The GOP is weak in Illinois, but people forget they held the Governor's chair for most of the past 30 years and Obama replaced a Republican. It's not impossible for them to get this seat.
BTW you might be right about Norm going quietly into that good night, but more likely he will fight on with GOP support. He already had to win on almost every point, including getting the absentee ballots thrown out entirely. Nothing that happened yesterday will change that. I'm pretty sure he will lose, but prolonging it for 6-12 months is equal to the GOP having an extra seat for up to a year. Why wouldn't they do that if they could? Keep in mind that TPaw has to certify the election. If he has *any* pending litigation to point out, however trivial, he can draw things out.
Nate, how about giving us some probability breakdowns of Coleman prevailing given the new numbers from yesterday?
I have stated before that I believe that Sen. Dems. are within the constitution to refuse to seat Burris, but I seriously doubt now that they will have the guts to fight in court long term.
Since when has Reid or other senior Senate Dems. shown any courage about anything at all? All Senate Dems. do is talk loud and then roll over when they're put under any pressure.
1/2 of the reason Reid is making such a squawk is so he can say "I tried to prevent Burris from being seated, but I couldn't do anything about it."
And then he can wash his hands of the entire matter. All it will take is the threat of an adverse legal decision to force Reid to fold.
It looks like he's going to fall back on the Democratic default position -- whining and waiving his arms while Republicans roll over him like Hitler's Panzers overrunning France.
Cometboy, Is that true that Paulenty has the authority to certify the election or not?
Another question: SOS Ritchie yesterday expressed his disappointment that the campaigns were able to veto the inclusion of about 400 absentee ballots that the local election officials had determined were wrongly excluded. Did the campaigns have to explain their actions, and, if so, what reasons did they provide?
Also, has Coleman's team given any good reasons why the 642 ballots should be included that the election officials believed were properly excluded.
Thanks in advance for any info.
i too would like to see some numbers on a possible coleman fight.
i predict he CONCEDES. Most think he wouldnt win in court anyway after Franken already being declared the winner he will have a much steeper hill to climb.
he needs money for his "other" legal woes.
And looking like a sore loser wont help his image to a possible jury.
does the GOP even like coleman? -he is not a right wing nut, he has accusations flying about him and the misses (mrs too). the GOP already has image problems (economy, bush)and loss problems (mccain). how strong is the GOP in MN?
i dont think this is a fight the party bosses will join in on.
my guess is they have already told Norm this is his fight and Norm cant fight two battles at once on his own.
nyc labrets- gee thanks for reminding me of jeri ryan ;) im sitting here in my jamas with fat rolling around and that image of jeri in her star trek jumpsuit pops up...
she did have a great body! maybe she got old and fat, ya think?
@tedb
I'm no expert (though I'm from MN and have followed it slightly)...
Franken wanted ALL of the improperly rejected absentee ballots accepted and counted.
Coleman only agreed to a handful of them and then "found" 642 ballots he thinks should be counted.
Since Coleman only wanted a selection of the absentee ballots accepted, Franken then went and cherry picked the ones he wanted.
For Franken, it was ALL or certain ones. For Coleman, it was basically certain ones that he hoped would help him.
Like I said, I'm from MN and am no expert and hope that Franken wins...so take what you want from my post.
@livemild
Again, no expert and have read quite a bit. But I haven't heard anything about other "legal" issues for Coleman. Am I missing something or is this just you hoping something minor turns into something major.
Yet... wasn't it you who wrote a couple weeks ago that the Democrats would perhaps be better off two votes short of cloture instead of just one (the argument being that getting two Republicans to cross over might be easier than getting just one, because he or she wouldn't have to buck his or her party alone)?
I'm just trying to wrap my little pea brain around all this, that's all.
Happy New Year, Nate and Sean!
@ tim- heres a link
http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/36206844.html?elr=KArks8c7PaP3E77K_3c::D3aDhUec7PaP3E77K_0c::D3aDhUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU
People worried about losing Illinios US Senate Race in a special election or in 2010 is paranoid- Illinios Republican party is extinct. The Reagan Democrats have joined the Democratic party.
Republican Governors of Illinios such as Jim Thompson,Jim Edgar and George Ryan were pragmatic Centrists- Fiscal Conservatives -Social Liberals. Jim Thompson was Governor during the Reagan/Bush 41 era when the Republican party was pretty popular in Illinios. Jim Edgar was elected in 1990 and re-elected in 1994 by a landslide because of the 1994 GOP revolution. George Ryan narrowly won in 1998 because the Democratic nominee Glenn Poshard was having trouble with Pro Choice Moderates in the Chicago Suburbs. In 1994- Republicans won every statewide elected office in IL.
Roland Burris- decided to leave the Attorney General position in 1994 to run for Governor- Jim Ryan(R)won the IL Attorney General race in 1994.
Pat Quinn-decided to leave the Treasurer position in 1994 to run for IL Secretary of State- Judy Baar Topinika(R) won the IL Treasurers race in 1994.
Dawn Netsch Clark- decided to leave the IL Comptroller position in 1994 to run for Governor- Lolleta Didrickson(R) won the 1994 IL State Comptroller's race.
In 1998- Republicans won the Illinois Governors Race which was an open seat election and unseated Democratic Senator Carol Mosely Braun who was tied in Scandals plus Republican Attorney General Jim Ryan won re-election in 1998 and Republican Treasurer Judy Baar Topinika won re-election in 1998.
Democrat Jesse White was elected IL Secretary of State in 1998 when George Ryan left to run for Governor.
Democrat Dan Hynes was elected IL Comptroller in 1998 when Lolleta Didrickson left to run for US Senator.
In 2002- Democrat Rod Blagojevich was elected Governor. Hynes and White won re-election. Lisa Madigan was elected Attorney General when Jim Ryan left the position to run for Governor. Judy Bar Topinka was re-elected Treasurer making her the only Statewide Republican elected official in IL.
IN 2004- Barack Obama won the IL US Senate Seat vacated by Republican Peter Fitzgerald.
IN 2006- Blagojevich,Madigan,Hynes,White were re-elected. Alexi Giannoulous(D)elected Treasurer.
Looking at the IL Congressional Delegation.
Republicans picked up the IL-11th CD (Southern Chicago Suburbs)in 1994. when Democrat George Sangemister retired. and the IL-20th CD(Springfield) in 1996 when Democrat Dick Durbin was elected to the US Senate. The IL-5th does not count since Flanagan ended up losing that seat to the Democrats in 1996 and Democrats held on to IL-5th ever since.
Democrats picked up IL-8(northern Cook County) in 2004 and held on to the district ever since. Democrats also picked up IL-11 and IL-14 in 2008. Democrats can pick up IL-13 when Republican Congresswoman Judy Biggert decides to retire.
The Republican primary voters in Illinios will nominate a Social Conservative like Jim Oberwies- who is a rich white guy- pro life,anti illegal immigration,anti gay rights. Democratic primary voters will nominate a inexperienced Black guy like Dan Seals. Seals will defeat Oberweis or Roskam or Kirk in the 2010 IL US Senate Race.
Franken should be seated, Burris should not. The man clearly has no shame.
Saying that, he'll fit right in.
Here's how I'd like things to play out in the senate:
Sen. Al Franken before inauguration day
Sen. Jan Schakowsky (eventually Sen. Michelle Obama in 2017)
Sen. Beau Biden (seems a fairly safe bet)
Sen. Caroline Kennedy (only because it'll drive the FReeptards insane... more than usual)
And of course, Harry the Mormon to step down and Russ Feingold to lead the senate. To be honest, I'd settle for anyone other than Reid at this point. I'm also still hoping Micheal Bennet doesn't end up replacing Ken Salazar, and instead Colorado gets Hickenlooper or Romanoff.
Nate, didn't you say a few months ago, that only having 58 seats may be better to get to 60?
Jane Curtin: Well, the 1970's are in their final month, and with some thoughts on this decade and the one we're about to enter, here's Weekend Update's Social Sciences Editor Al Franken.
Al Franken: Thank you, Jane. Well, the "me" decade is almost over, and good riddance, and far as I'm concerned. The 70's were simply 10 years of people thinking of nothing but themselves. No wonder we were unable to get together and solve any of the many serious problems facing our nation. Oh sure, some people did do some positive things in the 70's - like jogging - but always for the wrong reasons, for their own selfish, personal benefit. Well, I believe the 80's are gonna have to be different. I think that people are going to stop thinking about themselves, and start thinking about me, Al Franken. That's right. I believe we're entering what I like to call the Al Franken Decade. Oh, for me, Al Franken, the 80's will be pretty much the same as the 70's. I'll still be thinking of me, Al Franken. But for you, you'll be thinking more about how things affect me, Al Franken. When you see a news report, you'll be thinking, "I wonder what Al Franken thinks about this thing?", "I wonder how this inflation thing is hurting Al Franken?" And you women will be thinking, "What can I wear that will please Al Franken?", or "What can I not wear?" You know, I know a lot of you out there are thinking, "Why Al Franken?" Well, because I thought of it, and I'm on TV, so I've already gotten the jump on you. So, I say let's leave behind the fragmented, selfish 70's, and go into the 80's with a unity and purpose. That's what I think. I'm Al Franken. Jane?
Jane Curtin: Thank you, Al. That's the news. Good night, and have a pleasant tomorrow.
TedB said:
"Cometboy, Is that true that Paulenty has the authority to certify the election or not?"
My understanding is that the Governor's signature is the final step on the road to sending a Senator to Washington. Really his job is just to certify that it was a legal election. MN law is unusual in that an election isn't legal if there are still court challenges. Hence, a drawn out Coleman lawsuit would theoretically force him to stay his pen. Since it would help his party, I'm sure that's how Tpaw would see it.
Barack Obama's Senate seat does not expire until November 2010- So whoever is appointed or if a special election were to occur have to run for a full term in November 2010.
Rolland Burris if he gets seated will be US Senator from Illinios until Jan 2011- When US Senators elected in 2010 for the 112th Congress gets sworn in. Burris is unlikely to run for re-election in 2010 and based on his electoral history will lose in the Democratic Primary.
Before the November 2010 Midterm Election. Rod Blagejovich will be out of office- The Illinois State Legislature would have impeached and removed from Office. Pat Quinn would become Governor of IL.
Pat Quinn would run for a full first term as Governor in 2010- If He gets the Democratic Nomination will win in the General Election.
Lisa Madigan will either run for Governor challenging Quinn in the Democratic primary-which she will win. or run for US Senator which she will also win.
Jesse White runs for re-election as Secretary of State. He will probally leave that position in a body bag.
Dan Hynes runs for Lt Governor if Madigan runs for the US Senate or US Senator if Madigan runs for Governor.
Alexi Giannoulous runs for re-election as Treasurer.
Lisa Madigan will win the 2010 IL US Senate Race.
Democrats can get their Black US Senator in Maryland when Barbara Mikulski retires- Lt Governor Anthony Brown.
Okay, a couple of things... wouldn't it be nice to see Carol Moseley Braun back in her senate seat?
What's a FReeptard?
Roland Burris has been spineless and uninspired since day one. When Blago dangled the US Senate in front of him, it was more than he could resist. Burris is just so happy right now.
I don't think a 58 out of 99 balance is any less favorable to the Democrats than a 57 out of 98 - despite the rounding up - because humans a basically herd animals and if you can convince one Republican you can likely convince seven of 'em.
909ari said...
Okay, a couple of things... wouldn't it be nice to see Carol Moseley Braun back in her senate seat?
What's a FReeptard?
FReeptard - An individual, usually possessing radically right-wing political views, who delights in insulting others and is usually racist, sexist, and homophobic.
Derived from freeper, the nickname of the denizens of the ultra-right wing Web site FreeRepublic.com.
All the people who work food service at my university are black and 98% of the people who attend my university are white. Matt believes this difference exists because 'black people are lazier and dumber than white people'. What a racist freeptard!
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=freeptard
Ya, we really need Braun back. From Wikipedia:
"Moseley Braun was the subject of a 1993 Federal Elections Commission investigation over $249,000 in unaccounted campaign funds. The agency found several violations, but took no action against Moseley Braun, citing a lack of resources. Moseley Braun only admitted to bookkeeping errors. The Justice Department turned down two requests for investigations from the IRS[3].
In 1996, Moseley Braun made a private trip to Nigeria, where she met with dictator Sani Abacha. She subsequently defended Abacha's human rights records in Congress.[4]
In 1998, after George Will wrote a column reviewing the allegations of corruption against her,[5] she responded to Will's comments, saying that "I think because he couldn't say nigger, he said corrupt."[6] (The word "corrupt" appeared nowhere in the column.) She also compared Will to a Ku Klux Klansman, saying "I mean this very sincerely from the bottom of my heart: He can take his hood and put it back on again, as far as I'm concerned."[7] Later, Braun apologized for her remarks.[6]"
Seating Burris = automatic win for the GOP candidate running against him in 2010, unless a primary contender knocks him out before it gets that far.
The cloud of suspicion over Burris will persist no matter what. Even if this guy is as pure as the driven snow, people will always think "So, how much did he pay for that Senate seat?". It's an attack ad just waiting to be made, and I can see McConnell licking his chops at the prospect.
Franken's going to be delayed in taking his seat for a while thanks to the GOP extremists and Senator Spineless of Nevada.
So long as the Dems refuse to seat Burris, the GOP will block Franken, since both blocks are based on Senate Rule 2, which neither Senator-to-be can satisfy. If you try to change that rule to admit Franken, you admit Burris with him, and McConnell gets revenge in 2010. If you don't, McConnell and Co will prevent Franken from taking his seat until the middle of next year, or however long they can delay it.
This isn't as bad as it sounds; after all, the time delay can allow you enough time to work out an alternate means of blocking Burris that will not also block Franken.
Timing is everything, and if you panic and suspend Rule 2 just to seat Franken next week, you will lose the Illinois seat in 2010 guaranteed. Calm down and take your time. Coleman isn't going to take the seat no matter what happens, and Franken will, eventually.
This seems to gloss over your previous observation that it may be easier to get two Republican votes than just one. No one wants to be singled out as the one guy that broke ranks.
There's a rule about 59.4 rounding up to 60?
nkpolitics1279 said...
Lisa Madigan will either run for Governor challenging Quinn in the Democratic primary-which she will win. or run for US Senator which she will also win.
Even if Blagojevich wasn't causing all this trouble, if I were to pick two individuals I'd like to see as Illinois senators in 8-10 years time, both Lisa Madigan and Michelle Obama would be at the top of the list. Ideally, Jan Schakowsky or Carol Mosely Braun will be appointed by Quinn, then Michelle Obama pulls a Hillary and wins the seat in 2016. Then Governor Madigan runs and wins Dick Durbin's vacated seat.
Jesse Jackson Jr. was originally my first choice to replace Obama. But even if JJJ wasn't unfairly see as being tainted by Blago I'd still prefer Michelle Obama in this seat down the line.
If I'm looking too far ahead, Pappy Bush said today he wants Jeb to run for President. WTF?!?
If I were a Republican I would fight a special election tooth and claw. These are democratic times and Obama would have huge coattails in Illinois. Once elected the senator would then be a true incumbent in 2010. Off year elections tend to favor the party out of power so they would have a better shot at winning that seat in 2010 than they do now.
Ken
What is a dweebtard? Someone who frequents this website and thinks Burris' ass is more worth commenting on than Israeli troops entering Gaza. Oh well!
Best of all possible outcomes = Senate blocks Burris, Blagojevich is impeached, and Pat Quinn appoints an African-American Democrat with a spotless record and zero association with Blago the Terrible.
Just listened to Meet the Press podcast. Bobby Rush is accusing Reid of opposing Burris because Burris is Black. So is alot of the African-American press. Reid responds that Bobby Rush supported a white guy over Obama when O ran for Senate. Will this blow over or persist? I dunno, but it isn't worth the risk. There aren't any Black people in the Senate right now, and it looks bad.
On that note, have you noticed that there are no gay people in the Senate? Why is it that everyone in the world except us can get the Dems to listen to them when they have no representation but not us? When is it going to be our turn?
Speaking of Harry Reid, Senate Democrats and Constitutional qualifications, seems there are more immediate issues than Burris, namely BHO himself (WHY NO MEDIA COVERAGE OF THIS?) --
MESSAGE TO EVERY MEMBER OF CONGRESS:
When counting the electoral votes, either Congress finds by 1/8/09 that Obama -- not being an Article II “natural born citizen” (father Kenyan/British, not American, citizen) -- fails to qualify as President whereupon Biden becomes the full fledged President under 3 USC 19 (free to pick his own VP such as Hillary) or thereafter defers to the Supreme Court to enjoin Obama’s inauguration with Biden becoming only Acting President under the 20th Amendment until a new President is duly determined.
The preferable choice, at least for the Democrats, would seem obvious.
Looks like we had a drive by from a freeptard. Thanks, Ted, for your contributions to the political discussion.
Slightly (but not much) more on point, now that Bill Richardson has used a flimsy excuse to change his mind and not become Commerce Secretary, Obama has the opportunity to offer it to Olympia Snowe or some other Republican senator in a state with a Democractic governor. It's time to be a little Machiavellian.
I wonder about the feasibility of impeaching Blago at this point in time.
Yes,he can be "impeached" in the House but how can he be convicted in the Senate without evidence from Fitzgeral,who wants 90 more days before he seeks an indictment?
As Clinton (and Johnson before him) proved,impeachment without a finding of guilty in the Senate (U.S. or Illinois),necessary to remove from office,is meaningless.
I guess it was wishful thinking that everything would go smooth for the Democrats after the election. The carnival in MN is a distraction. Greedy dumb ass Blago in Il screwing up that appointment. Patterson sitting on his hands in NY. And now Richardson withdrawing his nomination for Commerce because it seems he wasn't scrutinized thoroughly by Obama's vetting team.
I wondered at the time why Richardson even accepted the Commerce position.
How many times Republicans won Statewide Elections in Illinios
1978-
US Senator- Charles Percy(R)-re-elected to a third term.
Governor- Jim Thompson(R)re-elected to 2nd term- 1st(4year).
Attorney General- Neil Scott(R)re-elected to a 4th term.
Secretary of State- Alan Dixon(D)re-elected to a 2nd - 1st(4 year)
Comptroller- Roland Burris(D)-elected.
Treasurer- Jerry Cosentino(D)elected.
1980-
US Senate- Dixon(D)elected.
Jim Edgar(R)appointed Secretary of State.
1982-
Governor- Jim Thompson(R)re-elected to a 2nd 4 year term.
Attorney General- Neil Hartigan(D)elected.
Secretary of State- Jim Edgar(R) elected to a first 4 year term.
Comptroller- Rolland Burris(D)re-elected to a Second Term.
Treasurer- James Donnewald(D)elected.
1984-
US Senate- Paul Simon(D)elected.
1986-
US Senate- Alan Dixon(D)re-elected to a 2nd Term.
Governor- Jim Thompson(R)re-elected to a third 4 year term.
Attorney General- Neil Hartigan(D) re-elected to a 2nd term.
Secretary of State- Jim Edgar (R)re-elected to a 2nd term.
Comptroller- Rolland Burris(D)- re-elected to a third term.
Treasurer- James Cosentino(D)re-elected to a Second Non Consecutive Term.
1990.
US Senate- Paul Simon(D)re-elected to a Second Term.
Governor- Jim Edgar(R)elected
Attorney General- Roland Burris(D)elected.
Secretary of State-George Ryan(R)elected.
Comptroller- Dawn Netsch Clark(D)elected
Treasurer- Pat Quinn(D)elected.
1992-
US Senate- Carol Mosely Braun (D)elected.
1994- GOP Revolution
Governor- Jim Edgar (R)re-elected to a 2nd Term.
Attorney General- Jim Ryan(R) elected
Secretary of State- George Ryan(R)re-elected to a Second Term.
Comptroller- Loletta Didrickson(R)elected.
Treasurer-Jud Baar Topinika(R)elected.
1996-
US Senate- Dick Durbin(D)elected.
1998
US Senate- Peter Fitzgerald(R)elected.
Governor- George Ryan(R)elected.
Attorney General- Jim Ryan(R)re-elected to a second term.
Secretary of State- Jesse White(D)elected.
Comptroller- Dan Hynes(D)elected.
Treasurer- Judy Baar Topinika(R)re-elected to 2nd Term.
2002-
US Senator- Dick Durbin(D)re-elected to a 2nd term.
Governor- Rod Blagojevich(D)elected
Attorney General-Lisa Madigan(D)elected.
Secretary of State- Jesse White(D)re-elected to a 2nd term.
Comptroller-Dan Hynes(D)-re-elected to a 2nd term.
Treasurer- Judy Baar Topinika(R)re-elected to a third term.
2004-
US Senate- Obama(D)elected.
2006-
Governor- Blagojevich(D)re-elected to a 2nd term
Attorney General- Madigan(D)re-elected
Secretary of State- White(D)re-elected to a third term.
Comptroller- Hynes(D)re-elected to a third term.
Treasurer- Alexi Giannoulus elected.
2008
US Senate- Durbin(D)-re-elected to a third term.
2010
US Senate(Obama Seat)
Lisa Madigan(D) will get elected.
Governor- Pat Quinn(D)will get elected.
Lt Governor- Dan Hynes(D) will get elected.
Attorney General- Kwame Raoul(D)elected.
Secretary of State- Jesse White(D)re-elected to a 4th term.
Comptroller- Dan Seals(D)elected.
Treasurer- Alexi Giannolous
re-elected to a second term.
Richardson is now going to be running for US Senate in 2012 when Bingaman decides to retire.
If Burris is seated in any fashion before Blago is forced out, he's in until the 2010 election, no matter if the legislature passes a law for a special election or not.
To change the selection for a vacant seat would apply from the moment the law becomes effective into the future, so if Burris is seated as the Jr. IL Senator, the law would NOT affect him, as he already is seated.
If he is not seated, and the legislature changes the law to a special election, the Rs have a much greater opportunity to pick off the seat, unless the special election is a party primary, then a 'general' election (highly, highly unlikely):
Even though the Rs are an empty shell in IL, they can (and probably will) coalesce around one candidate. If the Ds have 4-6 candidates, they split the vote that many ways. The Rs, on the other hand, by supporting a single candidate, don't split their vote. If the Rs get 35% of the vote, one D would need to get more than that. There would be 65% of the vote for the D candidates, but they would be splitting that vote across many candidates.
If there are 4 fairly evenly matched D candidates, it is conceivable that the following could happen:
D candidate 1: 22%
D candidate 2: 18%
D candidate 1: 13%
D candidate 1: 12%
Add more D candidates, and the D vote gets splintered even more.
As to Maryland's Senate seat, if Mikulski runs in 2010, she would become the longest serving female Senator in Congressional history. That in itself could be enough for her to consider a campaign.
Also, she's in apparent good mental and physical health, so health issues shouldn't enter into her decision. She turns 73 this year, so age isn't that much of a concern. She's very popular in the state, and wouldn't generate much primary opposition. The major R opposition I can see in the general would be former Gov. Booobie Erhlich (she would trounce him), or Michael Steele (Lt. Gov. under Erhlich), but Steele is running for GOP National Chairman. If he wins that slot, I don't see him running for Senator, and Mikulski would have less difficulty with him than with Booobie. If Steele loses the run for GOP Chair, he'd be in a less favorable position to run for Senator.
The only other R I see who might consider the race would be Andy Harris, the loser in the MD-1 Congressional race this year. He's a Club for Growth favored candidate, and if the economy starts to turn around by 2010, he probably won't get even 20% in the R primary.
As to Lt. Gov. Brown, he's known and popular in PG County, but not as well known in the rest of the state, especially the Baltimore metro area.
If and when Mikulski's seat is open (most likely 2016), then I could see a very large field of D candidates (6-8 or more) vying for that seat, with Martin O'Malley (current Md. Gov) at the top of the list, and Brown further down the list, probably 3rd or 4th.
Brown would also be bucking Maryland tradition of Governors and Senators usually coming from the Baltimore or Eastern Shore areas, rather than the DC suburbs. Gov. Glendening (PG, 1997-2005) and MoCo's Sen. Mac Mathias (1969-1987) were the exceptions to that tradition.
Correction:
The table for Dem vote split in a special election should read:
D candidate 1: 22%
D candidate 2: 18%
D candidate 3: 13%
D candidate 4: 12%
Sorry about that - cut and paste, then neglecting to fully edit, can be hazardous!!
Some folks here from out-of-state are saying things betraying a lot of ignorance of IL politics. In particular people are talking about Mosely-Braun as a good option. That Wiki description above is only half of it. She was utterly ineffective, unable to keep any staff because of her abusive behavior. So that involvement with the Nigerian dictators wasn't a one-time slip, it was the main thing she was known for.
Please, don't tell us who to support without at least paying a little attention.
Getting in late on the discussion.
In Minnesota, no certificate of election until the election contest is concluded. Whether Senate will seat a provisional winner is going to be a close vote.
On Illinois, Burris appointed. One thing that is constitutionally clear is that a new governor can't recall a Senator that was appointed by a previous governor. The only issue is whether the appointment was valid. Expect it to be referred to the Senate Rules Committee for an investigation with Burris seated in 4-6 weeks.
The bigger issue in Illinois is the special election. I don't think that this a clear issue constitutionally. The Seventeenth Amendment has a preference for an election. It allows a legislature to authorize a governor to make a temporary appointment until the people can fill the seat by election "as the legislature may direct." It does not say that the direction on the election can't be changed after the appointment.
If Illinois does decide to go with a special election (not sure if they will), I could see part of the agreement on seating Burris be his agreeing to accept the special election.
Agreed on the Richardson withdrawal providing an opening. I guess passing over Richardson for Secretary of State - a decision I disagreed with at the time - was ultimately a good move on Obama's part; Commerce is a much less significant post to go vacant.
If Obama wants a Democratic supermajority in the Senate, he should probably tap George Voinovich, Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins, Arlen Specter, or (ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee) Chuck Grassley for Secretary of Commerce.
Alternatively, send Burris to Commerce just to get rid of him.
Regarding the 2010 MD US Senate Race if Mikulski retires- Paul Sarbanes,Barbara Mikulski,and Ben Cardin have one three in common- They represented MD-3rd Baltimore Area Congressional District- This makes John Sarbanes the front runner for the Mikulski seat in 2010.
Brown,AG Gansler,and Comptroller Franchot are from the DC Metro Area.
Regarding a Special Election in Illinios- An open Primary Race which multiple candidates are on the same ballot.
Republicans united behind Mark Kirk- 35%
Democrats have a divisive primary between
Madigan-25%
Hynes- 20%
Jackson- 10%
Schakowsky-5%
Other- 5%
Since neither candidate got more than 50% of the popular vote.
There is going to be a runnoff election the next month with the top two vote getters. Look at the Special Election in TX-1993. This will mean
Lisa Madigan(D)and Mark Kirk will face each other in the runnoff.
Lisa Madigan or Dan Hynes who ever is the front runner on the Democratic Side will defeat Kirk in the runnoff by a 65-35 percent margin since all of JJJ,Schakowsky,Duckworth,and Seals supporters will fall to Madigan or Hynes.
If the candidates on the Democratic side just include
Jackson,Schakowsky,Duckworth,and Seals.
The primary outcome will be
Kirk(R)35%
Jackson(D)30%
Schakowsky(D)20%
Duckworth(D)10%
Seals(D)5%
The runnoff will be a tossup between Kirk(R)vs Jackson(D)since
Kirk and Jackson will split the Duckworth vote. Jackson will get all of the Seals vote. The majority of the Schakowsky vote will go to Jackson. Jackson will edge Kirk in the Special election runnoff.
Democrats will win a Special Election even in a open primary system.
Burris should not he seated. The Democrats can wait to seat their 59th member; no irreversible disaster will happen in the meantime.
Although it is true that Burris has not been accused of anything illegal, Gov. Blagojevich has been accused of trying to sell said Senate seat, therefore the issue is the entire process involving Blago and this Senate seat is tainted. While Burris is not necessarily legally culpable, he has compromised himself severely in the ethics department, for allowing himself to become part of Blagojevich's maneuverings. At best he is an opportunist--at worst he could be a loose cannon on the Senate floor.
I say that the seating of Burris should be blocked, and no senator be seated until such time as Illinois has a new governor, who can then make the appropriate appointment, free of taint.
Bushisms through years, including my fav:
"Too many good docs are getting out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country." _ Sept. 6, 2004, at a rally in Poplar Bluff, Mo.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/03/bushisms-over-the-years_n_154969.html
Chuck Grassley for commerce seems a very good idea to me.
If Obama wants a Democratic supermajority in the Senate, he should probably tap George Voinovich, Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins, Arlen Specter, or (ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee) Chuck Grassley for Secretary of Commerce.
I love the idea, but would all of those result in democratic replacements in the senate? We'd have to look at the rules for each state.
Okay - Grassley's governor is a democratic, but Iowa can be quirky. Does the governor appoint replacement senators?
Would Grassley take it?
And excuse my ignorance, but what type of powers and duties does Commerce Secretary have?
nkpolitics1279 said...
Since neither candidate got more than 50% of the popular vote.
There is going to be a runnoff election the next month with the top two vote getters.
It would TOTALLY depend on how the law spells out the special election. If it's a winner take all (as many states provide in special elections), then the person with one vote more than any other candidate would win, even if that one vote more means they got only 20% of the vote. As long as that one candidate gets more votes than the other candidates, a winner is declared.
If the law states that the winner is required to have a majority of the votes, then there would be a run-off.
That's why it is important for the law to be written with that in mind, and why if it isn't, the Rs, even with a weak candidate, could win with a very small % of the vote.
tmess2 said...
The Seventeenth Amendment . . . allows a legislature to authorize a governor to make a temporary appointment until the people can fill the seat by election "as the legislature may direct." It does not say that the direction on the election can't be changed after the appointment.
Are you forgetting ex post facto? Current Illinois law allows the Governor to appoint until the next General Election.
Article 1, Section 9, states "No . . . ex post facto Law shall be passed."
I'm not a lawyer, but I think changing the law for filling a vacancy after the vacancy is filled under current, valid and applicable law, would be considered ex post facto for any previously filled such vacancies, and the law would only apply when a new vacancy occurs. Am I incorrect in that observation?
Similar to a person arrested and convicted for a drug offense - the arrest occurs before enhanced punishment goes into effect, but the trial and conviction (thus any punishment) occurs after the enhanced punishment goes into effect. The judge is limited to punishing with the rules at the time of the incident (arrest), not the 'new' punishment.
Here's what Chuck Schumer had to say a few mintues ago on the subject of seating Al Franken...
I think it's actually better to seat Burris now. I was against it initially, but the timing of everything makes it the better option. The Dems have to decide if they want 2 or 0 new senators because they are dealing with "semi-certified" senators in both cases. And right now, it's time to quit the drama.
I would suggest Reid to push for a quick seating of Franken and to not block the seating of Burris, who is 71 years old already and will not survive the primary in 2010 (I think). The protest against Blagojevich's actions has been noted, and stronger action might not even be legally possible.
I think Burris is a bit egomaniac, as evidenced by his mausoleum, the number of his failed campaigns and his acceptance of Blagojevich's offer - but well, that's a common quality of politicians, and still a better motif than using power for personal gains.
And now that the Richardson thing has come out, it's better to close the chapter on the whole transition and give Obama the best support possible for his first days. The Dems are already preparing new legislation, so get these 2 blue senators and don't lose yourself within little distinctions that only serve your enemies.
Sounds like Iowa state law requires that the governor issue a writ of election, meaning the gov can't just appoint a replacement to fill a Senate vacancy. Even still, Iowa has shifted so far into the Democratic column that I'll bet the Dems could pick it up in a special election.
Now, Ohio law provides for gubernatorial appointment to fill Senate vacancies. And unlike Grassley, Voinovich actually has to sweat over reelection. He's less likely than Specter, Collins, or Snowe to help the Democrats achieve cloture on tight votes - although more likely than Grassley - then again, his appointment to Commerce would be seen as a lot more blatant an attempt to give the Democrats a filibuster-proof majority than tapping Grassley, whose replacement would be duly elected by the people of Iowa.
Grassley or Voinovich would be the savviest picks Obama could make here, IMO.
Mike in MD -
The ex post facto prohibition refers to criminal laws only, as interpreted in 1798 in Calder v Bull, 3 US 386:
1st. Every law that makes an action done before the passing of the law, and which was innocent when done, criminal; and punishes such action. 2d. Every law that aggravates a crime, or makes it greater than it was, when committed. 3d. Every law that changes the punishment, and inflicts a greater punishment, than the law annexed to the crime, when committed. 4th. Every law that alters the legal rules of evidence, and receives less, or different, testimony, than the law required at the time of the commission of the offense, in order to convict the offender.
Some states limit the governor to appoint a senator of the same party as the departing senator. Whether such a law is constitutional, I think, is still an open question.
Has anyone approached Jon Stewart about Hillary's Senate seat- I know it is just a little too wacky to wish for but man oh man CSPAN would be even better if we had Franken and Stewart to watch. Plus that team might seriously change the tactics of the Senate Democrats.
No Joke- Jon and Al are both masters of nonverbal communication- they could get balls of fire flying through the isles that even Harry Reid wouldn't be able to fumble.
I wonder if seating Burris would end the whole "Obama-Blago" drama- It seems like it might just remove Blago from the national stage.
If I were Obama I would be having trouble not obsessing over Gaza- What a tragedy to face so early- Biden did called it. UGH- I still have hope and faith that BHO and the American People are up to the tasks that face us.
@Statler
Normally I wouldn't punch your buttons but I'd like this whole 'representation by category' thing to stop. Senators should be selected because they are qualified and (generally) because they are elected by popular vote (though the former doesn't always happen). Not because they're black, female, handicapped, Star Trek fans, or whatever. Yes, even gay. But if you want to run and have a platform I agree with, I'd vote for you. I'm sure I don't need to remind you that there is a gay man in the HR.
I think Reid is probably thinking ahead to the 2010 elections and thinking like Nate suggests.
I think it would be self destructive for Coleman to mount a court challenge. A procedure question. Would his challenge be heard by the same Minnesota Supreme Court that has already ruled against him 3-4 times? And since rules for seating Senators are matters settled by the Senate, if coleman loses - where could he appeal?
Besides which his case loses on many counts:
1. He would be trying to get the MSC to change rules that he had previously agreed to but now does not like the outcome. (Duplicate ballots and Absentee Ballots). And changing rules you previously agreed to is not allowed. Estoppel.
2. Franken's 225 vote leads means even if Coloeman wins, he loses. Duplicates plus lost ballots only net 140 votes at the most.
3. Looking at his 600+ ballots won't help as they were already checked twice and rejected. The third time will NOT be the charm.
4. Counting the 400+ absentee ballots that both campaigns vetoed is the only item with any merit and will never net him the 80-100 votes he would need even if he won on the other two issues which he wont.
5. He is already running low on funds and will have to pay ALL the costs of anymore recounting.
So I hope he spends the weekend weeping and gnashing his teeth and then concedes on Tuesday.
Happy Camper
PS Lots of us straight Dems are also furious over Rich Warren.
Mike in Maryland
The Special Election process in Southern States- have an open primary system and then a runoff between the top two vote getters when neither candidate gets over 50%.
In other states they will have a Primary and a month later a general election.
The last US Senate Special Election which did not occur on November(Election Day) was
in Oregon in 1996 when Bob Packwood resigned.
The Primary took place in December 1995- Democrats nominated Ron Wyden. Republicans nominated Gordon Smith. The General Election took place in January 1996- Democrat Ron Wyden won the General Election.
Another situation is similar to California before 2002.
California had an open primary system. Republicans,Democrats,and Third Party are on the same ballot. Who ever gets the most votes on the Democratic side and the Republican side face each other in the General Election.
There is not open primary winner take all systems in US Senate Races.
jjj1951 said...
I guess it was wishful thinking that everything would go smooth for the Democrats after the election. The carnival in MN is a distraction. Greedy dumb ass Blago in Il screwing up that appointment. Patterson sitting on his hands in NY. And now Richardson withdrawing his nomination for Commerce because it seems he wasn't scrutinized thoroughly by Obama's vetting team.
Exaggerate much?
Minnesota was an extremely tight race. I was skeptical of Franken even pulling it out, and the circus antics have came from the Coleman campaign. Franken people have acted like adults throughout the recount process. Patterson likely made his decision weeks ago. Anyway, he can't announce the appointment until Hillary is confirmed.
I'll give you Blago. Then again, everyone knew the guy was dirty, they just had no idea how much of a weasal he turned out to be. I'm starting to think he's a Republican. As for Richardson, he's always been shifty. That's not to say guilty of anything, I'm sure he's not. But he did the right thing, as his position as commerce secretary was being undermined.
I agree that the Senate is the key barrier to the agenda, but some of this speculation about Commerce is just way too clever. Chuck Grassley? A sour, misanthropic rural pennypincher R to head the dept in charge of major infrastructure projects at a time where major stimulus and major green efforts are needed? Sure, just the guy.
I don't know enough about Snowe's positions on Commerce issues, but she at least seems like a possibility. And a good D would be re-elected in ME.
Legalities aside, it would be nice if Burris would offer to abide by the results of a special election.
Davy
"Senators should be selected because they are qualified and (generally) because they are elected by popular vote (though the former doesn't always happen)" "think Reid is probably thinking ahead to the 2010 elections and thinking like Nate suggests.
Barack Obama and Carol Mosely Braun faced mulitiple White opponents in the Democratic primary.
In 1992- It was a three way race between Braun- who got 38%, Dixon-the Democratic incumbent got 35% and Hofeld got 18%. Braun won the General Election in 1992 running against an unknown Republican.
In 2004- Obama got 51% of the popular vote in the Democratic primary running against 5 other Democratic challengers. including State Comptroller Dan Hynes,Millionare Blair Hull,and other unknown candidates- Gery Chico,Maria Pappas. Obama won the General Election in 2004 running against Alan Keyes.
Regarding an appointment- There is only one Black Statewide Elected official in Illinios- Secretary of State Jesse White who is in his mid 70's- White will be 76 in 2010. He becomes a caretaker if he is selected.
There is 3 Black US Congressman's from Illinios- Rush,Jackson,and Davis. All three of these Candidates have too much controversy and have tough time reaching out to White voters in Downstate or Chicago Suburbs. If I had to choose from Rush,Jackson,and Davis- It will be JJJ because he is young- He is less controversial than his father. and JJJ has a strong fundraising base.
Lisa Madigan or Dan Hynes are safe choices to get appointed to the Obama VACANT seat since they have won multiple Statewide Elections.
Madigan was elected Attorney General in 2002 and re-elected in 2006. Hynes was elected Comptroller in 1998,re-elected in 2002 and 2006. Madigan is Blagojevich's biggest threat in the Democratic primary.
Voinovich would be a superb Commerce Secretary. He's got the background, is on the public works and environment committee and is a thoughtful Republican (one of the few left). His appointment would give the Administration another high profile Republican, marginalize the right-wing Rethuglicans even further, and add a Democract to the Senate.
It's time for Obama to do something Machiavellian. He did it in Illinois. He knows how to do it. Now, doggone it, he should go ahead and do it because we'd all like it.
Getting a republican senator to fill Richardson's slot is a pipe-dream... the benefit would be small anyway, since a Republican Senator actually willing to do this would tend to vote with the Democrats anyway. And why should a Republican senator do this? Exchanging the potential 60th senate vote for a minor cabinet post?
In Minnesota, the process for deciding an election after a close vote has worked well. My expectation now is that the Minnesota Supreme Court will wait until after the State Canvassing Boad certifies the vote (Franken the winner) tomorrow before denying the latest Coleman petition (probably with a comment that the process for dealing with wrongly rejected absentee ballots was completed in the manner agreed to by all parties and approved by the Court.)
Coleman, in my view, has little chance of prevailing in a contest, but that's his call and the Senate seat should and no doubt will remain open until the contest is resolved under the rule of law.
On the other hand, the rule of law is being sorely tested in Illinois. Hopefully, and in short order, it'll prevail.
Republican US Senators with Democratic Governors should be appointed Secretary of Commerce.
Mitch McConnell- KY- Kentucky Governor Steve Beshear appoints Dan Mongiardo to McConnell's VACANT US Senate Seat. Jack Conway or Ben Chandler run for the Bunning Seat.
nkpolitics, are you seriously suggesting that Obama would appoint a schmuck like McConnell for anything, and that in the alternative universe where he did, that McConnell would accept?
People, please stop tripping. Republican senators won't become cabinet appointees so that Democratic governors can appoint Democrats in their places. Won't happen. End of story.
nkpolitics1279 said...
There is not open primary winner take all systems in US Senate Races.
Are you positive on that? Have you researched each and every state's law on filling a vacant Senate seat?
I try to not make absolute statements unless I am absolutely sure the statement is absolute.
As an example, almost everyone would agree that an equilateral triangular-shaped object cannot be drawn with corners that meet at 90 degree angles. That is not absolute.
Start at the North Pole, draw a straight line down any longitude to the Equator, take a right-angle turn (90 degree turn), left or right and follow the Equator for 90 degrees. Then take a right-angle turn North back to the North Pole.
Note: I did NOT state an 'equilateral triangle', but 'equilateral triangular-shaped object'.
The result is an equilateral triangular-shaped object with three 90 degree angles.
I also implied that if the proposed Illinois law that would establish special elections to fill a vacant seat (Senatorial in this case), it would have to specifically state that a winner can be declared by a majority win. What that means is that the law would have to establish when a run-off is held. If the law doesn't have a provision for declaring a winner by who gets a majority of the votes (50% plus one), the person who gets the most votes in the first election wins.
Another example - Louisiana is famous for the 'open primary' where all candidates for an office are listed on the same ballot, and if no one receives more than 50% of the vote, there is a run-off election between the top 2 recipients of votes. What most people don't realize is that this system came into existence in Louisiana in 1975. In Louisiana, it didn't exist prior to then.
In the November, 2008 General Election, the Oregon ballot contained a question to convert Oregon elections to such an 'open primary'. That question was defeated. In Louisiana, the 'open primary' system for Congressional elections ended with the 2006 elections. California voters defeated such a proposal for state and Congressional offices as recently as 2004.
So if you do a research of elections, you cannot go on the PAST history of elections in those states to determine CURRENT law.
This morning, on one the Sunday morning talk shows, Republican Sen. Mitch McConnell, when referring to the necessary bipartisan nature of Barack Obama's economic stimulus package -and the need for the Dems to consult with the Republicans, who want to slow down the process and conduct all sorts of hearings- kept repeating how the Republican Senators represent HALF OF ALL AMERICANS. It would be interesting, Nate, to see how many Americans they REALLY represent, since most of them come from sparsely populated small red states while the Dems come from large, urban, and heavily populated states... (Alaska vs. California)
baby steps.
just two months ago, the wingnuts insisted this was a center-right nation.
now they're down to "it's 50-50"
soon enough, they're realize 41 senators does not equal half the nation, even with fuzzy math.
Richardson Withdraws as Commerce Nominee--opens a way for Democrats to get senate supermajority.
Now that Franken (D) appears headed for victory in MN (he leads Coleman (R) by 225 votes with hardly any ballots left to consider) the Democrats need just one more seat for a filibuster-proof 60 seat supermajority.
They can attempt to achieve this by encouraging a moderate Republican senator to defect. Arlen Specter of PA who is now the most moderate Republican in their caucus according to the ACU, and who faces a tough reelection campaign in a blue state, is an obvious choice for Democratic overtures.
But perhaps a surer way is similar to what NY Gov. Elliot Spitzer did to reduce the size of the Republican majority in the NY State Senate, paving the way for the Democrats to finally win control of that chamber this year for the first time in 40 years—by appointing a Republican state senator to his administration thus opening a vacancy which he filled with a Democrat.
Now that NM Gov. Richardson has removed himself from consideration for Secretary of Commerce, Pres-elect Obama can attempt to do the same thing. He has said he wants to reach out to Republicans by including them in his cabinet. The selected Republican senator should be from a blue state with a Democratic governor, so that a Democrat is appointed to the vacancy and the chances are increased of retaining the seat in the next election. Possible choices include Specter (PA), Gregg (NH) and Voinovich (OH).
All this depends of course on a Republican senator accepting such a nomination. Heading a cabinet-level department is generally seen as a step up from Congress or a governorship and should serve as an enticement. In addition, being a member of a minority party in Congress is not very fulfilling especially when compared to a more active role as a Secretary in the cabinet.
The threatened use of a filibuster by the minority has become so frequent and so detrimental to the operation of the US Senate, and never has the opportunity to enact a liberal and progressive agenda been so great, and when only one senate seat is all that stands in the way of real reform in this country, Obama must get creative and explore this opportunity. The senate filibuster is the only weapon left for Republicans to block a progressive revolution and they have shown that they are not afraid to use it.
Mike in Maryland.
In recent history-
Oregon,Pennsylvania,and Texas are the only three States that have Special Elections for the US Senate in a different day from Other US Senate Races which occur in the first Tuesday of November of an even number year.
Oregon- the Governor did not have the power to appoint a replacement to a VACANT US Senate Seat. When Packwood Resigned in Sept 1995. Special Election had to take place in 90 days- Primary took place in December 1995, General Election occured in January 1996.
In Texas- The Special Election to fill Bentsen's VACANT US Senate Seat occured in June 1993- Texas had a open primary System- Kay Bailey Hutchinson and Bob Kreugar were the top two candidates in the primary- Hutchinson beat Kruegar in the runnoff which occured in July 1993.
The last special election for the US Senate Race in Illinos was in 1969.
Everett Dirksen died in September 1969. The Special election took place November 1970 which Adlai Stevenson won.
nkpolitics1279,
Again, I ask if you have studied each and every state's law on appointment to a vacant seat? Or accessed a listing of each state's laws on such succession?
Until the summer of 2008, Maryland state law provided for a period of time in which a US House seat could remain open prior to a General Election. However, due to an incumbent House member being defeated in a Primary election, and that Representative resigning his seat prior to the new Congress, the Maryland state legislature passed a statute that changed that law, allowing for an election to fill the seat.
If it happened in Maryland, it could happen in other states. Even if it had not happened in Maryland, that does not exclude it from happening in other states.
Because you cannot find an election in which it has not happened before, that might only mean that an election for a vacant Senate seat has not happened in a state where the winner of an open primary special election wins the seat, or some state has changed it's law.
Until November, 2008, was there ever an election in which a major party nominee was not a white male? No. Does that mean it could never happen? Look to the election results of November, 2008.
Just because it has never happened (at least that you can find) does not mean that it can not happen, and/or that laws or circumstances cannot be changed.
The concept of Obama naming a Republican senator, from a state whose Democratic governor would then be called upon to name his replacement, is not something that originated on this board. Every Republican senator who has been named on this board is well aware of the arithmetic in this plan, and so, I might point out, is the Republican National Committee.
So while it's a good idea it's not one that is ever going to go anywhere.
To provide backup to Mike in Maryland
When John Kerry was running for President, he was (as he remains) the junior senator. The governor at the time was a Republican by the name of Mitt Romney.
The state legislature in Massachusetts quickly enacted legislation which called for a very quick special election, which IS NOT required to be in November, but rather, within 60 to 180 days.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2004/02/19/democrats_eye_plan_to_protect_kerry_senate_seat/
The previous time that a senate seat from the Commonwealth was open, it came when JFK was elected president. The newly elected democratic governor appointed a placeholder until the 1962 election of Senator Ted Kennedy.
In ANY state where one party is dominant but may not hold the governor's office, you can expect the laws to be changed if not expressly written into that state's constituion.
Patterson likely made his decision weeks ago. Anyway, he can't announce the appointment until Hillary is confirmed.
That didn't stop the CO governor from naming Salazar's replacement. So I wouldn't put too much stock in that rationale.
New post
Joe (TFV),
Thanks.
Mike
Republican senators won't become cabinet appointees so that Democratic governors can appoint Democrats in their places.
Right,there's not a chance in hell.Any such Republican senator who is offered a cabinet post will be not-so-politely informed by his party that,should he accept, he will be declared anathema and his political career will be over.
I doubt Lisa Madigan is getting anywhere near the Senate seat/race. Her sights are probably set on the gov's chair in 2010, and as the Attorney General, she has the best case for appealing to voters to let her clean up after the corrupt Blago.
I still say if Mark Kirk is the best the GOP can throw at the seat, then let's just have a special election.
I suggest that Pat Quinn nominate Youree Dell Harris to the Senate instead of Burris. Why? Because 1) No matter who gets nominated to this seat, they're going to lose in 2010 2) She is at least as qualified as Caroline Kennedy 3) She has zero connection to Blago the Terrible 4) In the event of a foreign relations issue with Jamaica, she gets progressively more Jamaican every day 5) She is better at predicting budget projections than Bush Republicans
Seat Franken & Burris BOTH asap
the whole argument about 58-60 & cloture is really rather silly since there is little chance that every DEM will always vote for cloture anyway
but even more so, it is not with any high confidence that the DEMs will be able to count of a regular vote from Kennedy due to his health issues from what I am hearing.
also, is Johnson's health back to 100% dependability for sure ?
if the DEMs can not count on those 2 dependable votes for every cloture, then they really need the MN & IL seats + several GOPers to bust a filabuster, imho
many more good reasons for the DEMs to seat 'em asap than try to count other hypothetical scenarios
Mike in Maryland
Too answer your question
In 34 States.
1)Colorado
2)Connecticut
3)Delaware
4)Florida
5)Georgia
6)Idaho
7)Illinios
8)Indiana
9)Iowa
10)Kansas
11)Kentucky
12)Maine
13)Maryland
14)Michigan
15)Minnesota
16)Missouri
17)Montana
18)Nebraska
19)Nevada
20)New Hampshire
21)New Mexico
22)New York
23)North Carolina
24)North Dakota
25)Ohio
26)Pennsylvania
27)Rhode Island
28)South Carolina
29)South Dakota
30)Tennessee
31)Texas
32)Virginia
33)West Virginia
The Governor appoints who ever he or she wants. A Special Election occurs the same Day as the Next Regular Congressional Election. The winner gets sworn in when the election results gets certified.
California and New Jersey- Governor appoints anyone he or she wants- Special Election date is Governors discretion.
Hawaii,Utah,and Wyoming- Governor has to appoint a person from a list of 3 prospective appointees submitted by the same political party as the prior incumbent.
8 States- Governors are barred from making an appointment.
Alabama-if vacancy occurs more than 4 months before the upcoming general election. Governor sets a Special Election date to fill the vacancy.
Alaska- Governor makes a temporary appointment- Calls a Special election 90 days after the election occurs.
Massachusetts-Special Election occurs(160 days after a vacancy occurs- If a Vacancy occurs after April of an even year number- Special Election occurs the same day as the Next Congressional election.
Oklahoma- Special election occurs 30 days after the Vacancy occurs.
Oregon- If Vacancy occurs before 60 days before the General Election- Governor sets a Special Election Date.
Vermont- Special Election takes place 3 months after the Vacancy takes place. IF it is 6 months before the General Election. It occurs on the same day as the General Election.
Washington- Special election occurs 90 days after a VACANCY Occurs.
Wisconsin- If a Vacancy occurs before the 2nd Tuesday of May in the year of the General election- Special Primary and Election occurs. Vacancy occurs between May and July- Special Election and Primary occurs the same day as the September Primary.
Arkansas- Governor appoints sets Special Election Date 120 days after a VACANCY Occurs.
Louisiana- If Vacancy Occurs more than one year of the next Congressional Election- Governor appoints sets a Special election Date. Less than One year of the Next Congressional General election date.- Special Election occurs the same date as the Next Congressional Election Date.
Mississippi- If Vacancy is more than one year before the Next Congressional Election- Governor appoints and set a Special Election Date 90 days after a Vacancy Occurs- Less than one year before the Next congressional Election date- Special Election occurs at the Same date as the Next Congressional Election.
In Pennsylvania-1991- When HJ Heinz died in April 1991- The Special Election took place November 1991.
In Texas-1993- When Bentsen was appointed Treasury Secretary Jan 1993- Special Election and Runoff took place June 1993 - Bentsen's Senate Term expired in November 1994.
Going back to the situation in Illinios.
Barack Obama's Senate Term expires in November 2010 (Senate Class 3)
Under the current law- Blagojevich would appoint whoever his wishes(Burris). Burris who is a caretaker appointment would remain in the US Senate until either After the general election results are certifified or January 2011 when the 112th Congress Senators get sworn in.
If the laws were to change- US Senate refuses to seat Burris- Special Election will take place 90 days after a vacancy occurs.
In addition to Kennedy and Johnson,I worry about the 91 year old Robert Byrd,the longest serving U.S. senator in history.
He recently had to give up his powerful committee chairmanship due to diminished physical vigor.(Remember the last years of Strom Thurmond,when he practically had to be carried to and from the Senate floor?)
WV:conate I ghost write most of Nate's stuff.
the whole argument about 58-60 & cloture is really rather silly since there is little chance that every DEM will always vote for cloture anyway
By the same rationale, not every Repub would always not vote for cloture. So you'd want more people likely to vote for cloture as long as some other people might vote for it, too.
If Lisa Madigan runs for Governor in 2010- She will defeat Pat Quinn in the Democratic Primary. This is assuming Blago is impeached and removed from Office. Madigan gets elected Governor November 2010.
Dan Hynes becomes the front runner for the 2010 IL US Senate Race.
Hynes 30%
Burris 25%
Giannolous 20%
Duckworth 15%
Schakowsky- 10%
OPUS
another good example of the flawed strategy in keeping seats vacant for no good reason [even if the Senate seats them provisionally as the House has done as recently as 2006]
TOBY
absolutely, that is the flip side of the equation
plus, strategically I believe it is prudent to force every senator in BOTH parties to take a public on-the-record stand by forcing cloture votes whenever necessary - then try to defend themselves against 'obstructionist' charges in these desperate times
call the GOPer partisan bluffs for what they are
I actually don't understand why Dems or Repubs would want to not seat Burris. He's legitimate, seemingly with less taint of scandal than a majority of sitting members of that august body.
Let's leave prosecuting Blogoyovich to the courts, as it should be, and let the Senate get to the business of considering the rather dire needs of our country.
(though Harry Reid said "I yam what I yam" on the talkshows today, so he's cool in my book)
DCM-
If the Republicans try to filibuster the seating of Franken or Burris,a little talk of the dreaded NUCLEAR OPTION may be in order.
johnathan-
Unfortunately,Democrats seem to have a self-destructive impulse.
(Example:They chose Reid to be Senate Majority Leader.)
OPUS
I agree !!!
especially after 8 years of suffering under an illegitimate POTUS who cannot even pronounce 'nuhclar'
This Tuesday January 6 2009.
Mark Begich-AK,Mark Udall-CO,Jim Risch-ID,Mike Johanns-NE,Jeanne Shaheen-NH,Tom Udall-NM,Kay Hagan-NC,Jeff Merkley-OR,and Mark Warner-VA will get seated in the US Senate.
If I believed in blessings,I would bestow one upon them!
that is 9 new senators [2 named Mark]
and at least 5 more seats to be refilled [DE, CO2, NY, MN & IL]
so at least 14 new senators - did I miss any ?
maybe Kennedy in MA & Byrd in WV soon too
plus who knows if other Senators will still give up their seats/retire [like Lott did] or accept other posts during the next 2 years...
that is tremendous turn-over
now if we could just get rid of Reid as Majority bleeder
We should get rid of the Senate Ethics committee and take away the US Senates power of expelling a member from office.
If the US Senator misbehaves- The voters in the US Senator's homestate should have the right to recall that US Senator from office by petition- Recall Election would occur during the same time as the upcoming Primary or General Election.
Regarding a Vacancy- Governor makes a temporary appointment and must set a Special election Date 100 days after a vacancy occurs.
typo - that was supposed to be 3 new 'MARKS' in the freshman senate class
Looking at US Senators who are in poor health or over 80.
The Hawaii Senators- Governor Linda Lingle(R) has to appoint one of the 3 Democratic candidates selected by the HI-Democratic Party Committee. (
MA,NJ and WV have Democratic Governors.
SD- we are screwed if something happens to Johnson.
Aren't 10 new Democratic senators being sworn in on Tuesday? Marc Ambinder of Delaware will be seated as Biden resigned .
(Five Mark/Marc's.)
nkpolitics1279,,
Nice list.
However
You do not address the question of how a special election, called for in 47 states, is handled. Is it a primary, then an election with the only the winners of the various party primaries? Is it a winner take all special election? There are a lot of 'A Special Election will be held' comments, but no specifics on those special elections.
In the other three states (Hawaii, Utah, and Wyoming), you neglect to list if, how and when an election is held. Requirement for a special election within a certain time period? At the next general election? When, or if, the governor determines?
You also did not address the question of the legislature changing the rules for elections at any time. For example, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland%27s_4th_congressional_district_special_election,_2008 on how Maryland changed the law to allow for a special election without party primaries to determine who would run in the special election to fill the vacant 4th Congressional District seat.
I understood that Biden was not gonna resign his seat until Jan 19th ???
that is right, NK - I forgot about those 3 ol' codgers from HI + NJ, so along with MA, WV & SD that puts alot of other seats at risk of turnover in the near term...
IF those 6 senate seats do change before 2010, that would be at least 20 new senators in this congress - WOW !
DCM-
Yeah,I think you're right about Biden.
(Posting on two threads at this hour for a man of my age is exhausting.)
that would be a good topic for Nate to do another thread on predicting which other senate seats & how many of them will likely change placeholders before 2010
let's see his odds...
Nate the Actuary!
The US Senate will include.
3-Jeffs-
4-Dicks-
1-Lisa
4-Marks
11-Johns
1-Blanche
1-Diane
2-Babs-
3-Mikes
2-Chris
1-Joe
4-Toms
2-Teds
1-Bill
1-Mel
1-Saxby
2-Dans
5-Jims
1-Roland
1-Evan
2-Chucks
2-Pats
1-Sam
1-Mitch
1-Mary
1-David
1-Olympia
1-Susie
2-Bens
1-Carl
1-Debbie
1-Amy
1-Al
1-Thad
1-Roger
1-Claire
1-Max
1-Harry
1-Judd
1-Jean
1-Frank
5-Bobs
1-Carol
2-Kays
1-Kent
1-Byron
1-George
1-Sherrod
1-Ron
1-Arlen
1-Sheldon
1-Lindsey
1-Tim
1-Lamar
1-Orrin
1-Bernie
1-Patty
1-Maria
1-Russ
1-Herb.
Mike in Maryland. Most States the General Special Election for a US Senate Race occurs on the same day as the Upcoming November Congressional election. The Primary Process will take place the same day as the regular Primary Day. The primary process in a Special Election is closed.
In States where Special Elections take place 100 days after Vacancy. The Special election primary takes place 1 month before the Special General Election. In most states primaries are closed.
The Primaries in Illinios take place in Feb or March 2009- This will be for Local Races. The Special Election Primary for the US Senate can take place the same day as the Regular Primary Election for Municipal Races in every County. The General takes place one month after the Primary Elections.
Mike in Maryland
Regarding the Special Election in Maryland 4th CD. The circumstances that caused the Special election in that race was different.
The prior incumbent in MD-4th CD resigned after he lost in the Regular Primary Election to Donna Edwards. Republicans selected their candidate in the Regular primary election. Because the Primary took place before The special Election Primary was unnecesary.
In Illinios- The prior incumbent resigned Mid November of an even year number. The Primaries in IL take place in Feb/March- (Illinios has an early primary in State and local races. Primary takes place in Feb. General election takes place in March- New Senator gets seated in March 2009.
Nate,
or the Dems could be ethical and NOT seat Burris who's been shameful in this whole episode.
surprised you would support his seating for some short-term political advantage.
nkpolitics1279 first said...
The primary process in a Special Election is closed.
No doubt that a Republican can't vote in a Democratic primary, or vice versa, right????
But on paragraph later, nkpolitics1279 said...
In most states primaries are closed.
So in some states a Republican CAN vote in a Democratic primary, and vice versa, right????
Do I see some contradictory information????
FYI - I know that in some states, a voter who is registered as a Democrat CAN vote in the Republican primary, and vice versa. Alabama is one such state. Indiana is another. Michigan. Mississippi. Missouri. North Dakota (because no party is registered - you only have to prove you've been a resident of the state for 30 days). Tennessee. Vermont. Washington state. Wisconsin.
BTW - In Virginia, the state party can decide to hold a caucus to nominate a candidate, rather than hold a primary. If both parties decide to hold a primary, then Virginia is an open primary state. Other states also have a modification of the open primary vote, with certain restrictions in place.
In California, parties may allow voters who decline to state their party affiliation to participate in their primaries. Democrats currently allow registered Democrats and independents to vote in their primary. Republicans currently have a closed primary.
I guess that blows your "Special Election is closed" statement out of the water, doesn't it????
And nkpolitics1279, since I live in Maryland, I have a good idea what the politics are in the state, and why the legislature made the change in the law for the Maryland 4th Congressional District election in 2008, including the reason for the change in rules for not holding a primary in the MD-4th special election.
As to the timing of 'primaries' for a 'special election', are you sure that every time interval you gave is correct? Are you sure that every state has the same rules for when the primary is held?
Doesn't the Maryland 4th Congressional District special election demonstrate to you that laws can change, and ARE changed, if and when the political establishment in a state decides to change the laws on special elections? After all, if the law had not been changed for the MD-4th, there would not have been a special election, as Congressman Wynn's resignation date would have been after the date the then-current law specified for a special election to fill the vacancy.
If you didn't know, in Maryland the primary elections are (currently) held in February for Presidential elections (and usually, but not always, for other elections that will occur that year); whenever the municipality wants them for local elections; and in September for non-Presidential, non-municipal, elections.
For one election cycle, the City of Baltimore held elections for city offices in September of non-Presidential election even-numbered years, but the General Election was held in the odd-numbered year after the election. Puzzled by that? It allowed some, but not all, citizens who had attained their 16th birthday to vote in city elections. Crazy, right?
We had a set of elections for city offices where the term of office was for five years, then a term of three years, but the primaries for those elections were every four years. Real crazy, right?
Don't worry - now the primary for city offices is held two months before the General Election, because the law was changed.
AND SO IT CAN BE FOR FILLING VACANCIES IN SENATE SEATS IN ANY STATE. What is law today might change tomorrow, or the next day. Depends on what the circumstances are, who's in power, and which party they want to help or hurt.
P.S., also in case you didn't know, the City of Baltimore is designated as an Independent City by the State of Maryland. It is not a county, nor is it part of any other county. Virginia, Missouri and Nevada are the only other states that allow such designations of cities. You might have heard of some of them? Alexandria? St. Louis? Carson City?
I still want Patterson to appoint Jon Stewart- I still think Franken and Stewart could form the backbone of a whole new strategy for the Democratic Senators.
It was no joke that Stewart got those Peabody awards.
Also who is up for Ted Kennedy's seat? I bet/hope he resigns once the inauguration is over. He will do the "gracious statesman" once we have safely seated the first African American POTUS and the first Female Kennedy has taken the "baton of courage".
May be that is what is going on in NY- TK promises to give the MA seat to a sure healthy vote once CK has Hillary's seat.
TK does deserve to hold on to that seat until BHO is sworn in
wv-Pokel what Al and Jon could do to the absurdity of the Republican Senators.
Are you sure of your facts? When the cloture rule was changed (in 1970s, I think) from two-thirds, it was changed to a flat 60, irrespective of the number of Senators present in the chamber. Has it changed again, or was there a contingent rule based on total seats?
Mike in Maryland-
Individual States have different set of rules when it comes to Special Elections. That is including the Primary process in the special Election. However Special Elections for US Senate Races are different from Special Elections for US House Races.
When a vacancy occurs in the US House of Representative. The Governor is unable to make temporary appointments for seats in the US House of Representatives so they schedule a Special Election Primary Date and Special General Election 90-120 days after the vacancy occurs.
When it comes to the US Senate- Most states Governors make a temporary appointment for a VACANT US Senate Seat. Then a Special Election for the VACANT US Senate Seat takes place which occurs on the same day as the upcoming November US Senate Races in other States. ie. If a US Senator whose term does not expire in Nov 2012 dies or resigns on Jan 2009. The Governor appoints- the Special Election takes place on November 2010.
In some States- Governors are barred from making Temporary appointments for VACANT US Senate Seats. Special Election occurs 90-120 days after VACANCY occurs.
You also have to look at the month/year when vacancy take place.
regular US Senate/US House Elections take place in a Even year number.
Here are different scenarios in determining whether a Special Primary election takes place.
1)In Maryland- Ben Cardin's US Senate term does not expire in November 2012. MD primaries for US Senate or US House Races take place in February/September. If Ben Cardin resigns from Office before the February or September 2010 primaries of US Congressional Races. A primary for the Special Election takes place on Feb or Sept 2010 same day as the regular primary elections. The special general election takes place November 2010.
If Cardin resigned After the Feb or Sept 2010 primaries- The Party Elders of the Democratic and Republican nominee select their candidates to compete in the November 2010 general election.
Maryland's other US Senator Mikulski's Senate Term expires in November 2010. If Mikulski resigns before the Feb/Sept Primaries- The Special Primary Election takes place Feb or Sept 2010(same day as the regular primary election and the General Election takes place in November 2010). If Mikulski resigns after the Feb/Sept 2010 Primaries. The Primaries are unnecessary because the Republican Nominee has been decided. On the Democratic side - If Mikulski won the Democratic nomination- The MD Democratic Elders select a Replacement Nominee in the November 2010 General Election.
Mike in Maryland.
Regarding the MD-4 CD Special Election Race.
Al Wynn resigned after he lost in the Democratic Primary. The Democratic and Republican Nominee for the MD-4 CD race has been decided. The primary is unnecessary.
Had Wynn won the Democratic primary and decided to resign. The MD-4 Democratic Party committee would select a Replacement candidate for the Special Election.
Minnesota Supreme Court shoots down Coleman's last (?) challenge:
http://www.twincities.com/allheadlines/ci_11372096?nclick_check=1
nkpolitics1279 said...
Had Wynn won the Democratic primary and decided to resign. The MD-4 Democratic Party committee would select a Replacement candidate for the Special Election.
Incorrect.
Incorrect.
Incorrect.
The law at the time stated that the date of the resignation of Al Wynn took place AFTER the last date for a Special Election. The law at the time stated that if a special primary is held to fill a vacant House seat, party primaries would be held, and then the winners of the primaries PLUS any others to be included on the ballot (Independents, 3rd parties, etc.) would face off in a 'general election'.
Because Maryland didn't want the seat to be vacant for six months (as would be the case with the then-current law), the Governor and state legislature changed the law to provide for a special election to fill the seat. It was coincidental that the special election fell in a Presidential-election year, and the party primaries had been held - if it had happened two years before, or two years later, the primaries would have been held in September, after the date of Wynn's resignation.
Therefore, the amended law provided for the winners of the already conducted primaries to be nominated by their respective parties, dispensing of the need for a primary for the special election, and the special election proceeded to the 'general election' phase.
If Wynn's resignation had occurred two years before or two years after, no primary would have been held at the time of the resignation, no nominees would have been picked for the November general election, and (if the legislature wanted a special election to fill the vacancy) a primary (under then-current law) would have been held to pick the nominees for the 'general election' phase of the special election. Or the legislature might have just moved up the September primary to an earlier date, and provided that the winners of the primary for the special election would be the nominees for the November general election also.
The above PROVES that the law can be changed at any time, depending on the circumstances, who is in power, and what political outcome the parties want to achieve. And depending on the circumstances can determine HOW the law is changed to fit those circumstances.
Mike in Maryland.
Going back to Illinios.
If Governor's are barred from making temporary appointments to the United States Senate.
A special primary election would take place one month before the special general election.
I don't think it really matters if the Democrats seat Burris or not. The Democratic party is not like the Republican party. They're much more fractured, and in recent years, the Democrats have a lot more Blue Dog members too. It's not like the Democrats would vote 59 votes vs. the Republicans 41, and fail to break a fillibuster. Remember two of those "Democratic" votes are independents, and one belongs to Joe Lieberman.
My bet is that at least 8 to 10 Democrats will fail to vote to end a filibuster. Even back in the 1960s and 1970s when the Democrats actually had over 60 seats, they still couldn't over end a filibuster, most which were done by their own members.
What will make a difference is Obama's popularity and political skill. As I pointed out, Nixon would appoint a Democrat to a federal judgeship in states that had two Democratic senator. A similar trick will keep Republicans from filibustering.
Even the reddest of the states has large pockets of Democrats. No Republican senator wants Obama swooping in on their state, getting massive crowds, and appearing on the 6 o'clock news. Such an act may not make a state vote blue, but it might encourage a Republican challenger if the incumbent is made to look weak.
A popular president who isn't afraid to tweak a Senator nose can have quite a bit of say in whether a filibuster is breakable or not.
情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,潤滑液,自慰套,威而柔,威而柔,威而柔,威而柔,自慰套,跳蛋,按摩棒,充氣娃娃,自慰套,潤滑液,威而柔,FleshLight,跳蛋,按摩棒,充氣娃娃,跳蛋,按摩棒,FleshLight,充氣娃娃,情趣商品,情趣網站,情趣網站,潤滑液,性感內衣,充氣娃娃,按摩棒,情趣精品,跳蛋,情趣網站,情趣商品,跳蛋,FleshLight,充氣娃娃,情趣內衣,情趣精品,按摩棒,威而柔,自慰套,成人玩具,Nexus,lelo,聰明球,後庭,後庭g點,g點,美國fleshlight,STU訓練大師,Fleshgirls,Toys Heart,Tenga,日本 Vibratex,日本Toys Heart ,日本Tenga,美國aneros,rudeboy,英國rudeboy,英國Rocksoff,德國Fun Factory,Fun Factory,英國甜筒造型按摩座,甜筒造型按摩座,英國Rock Chic ,瑞典 Lelo ,英國Emotional Bliss,英國 E.B,荷蘭 Natural Contours,荷蘭 N C,美國 OhMiBod,美國 OMB,Naughti Nano ,音樂按摩棒,ipod按摩棒,美國 The Screaming O,美國TSO,美國TOPCO,美國Doc Johnson,美國CA Exotic,美國CEN,美國Nasstoy,美國Tonguejoy,英國Je Joue,美國Pipe Dream,美國California Exotic,美國NassToys,美國Vibropod,美國Penthouse,仿真按摩棒,矽膠按摩棒,猛男倒模,真人倒模,仿真倒模,PJUR,Zestra,適趣液,穿戴套具,日本NPG,雙頭龍,FANCARNAL,日本NIPPORI,日本GEL,日本Aqua Style,美國WET,費洛蒙,費洛蒙香水,仿真名器,av女優,打炮,做愛,性愛,口交,吹喇叭,肛交,魔女訓練大師,無線跳蛋,有線跳蛋,震動棒,震動保險套,震動套,TOY-情趣用品,情趣用品網,情趣購物網,成人用品網,情趣用品討論,成人購物網,鎖精套,鎖精環,持久環,持久套,拉珠,逼真按摩棒,名器,超名器,逼真老二,電動自慰,自慰,打手槍,仿真女郎,SM道具,SM,性感內褲,仿真按摩棒,pornograph,hunter系列,h動畫,成人動畫,成人卡通,情色動畫,情色卡通,色情動畫,色情卡通,無修正,禁斷,人妻,極悪調教,姦淫,近親相姦,顏射,盜攝,偷拍,本土自拍,素人自拍,公園露出,街道露出,野外露出,誘姦,迷姦,輪姦,凌辱,痴漢,痴女,素人娘,中出,巨乳,調教,潮吹,av,a片,成人影片,成人影音,線上影片,成人光碟,成人無碼,成人dvd,情色影音,情色影片,情色dvd,情色光碟,航空版,薄碼,色情dvd,色情影音,色情光碟,線上A片,免費A片,A片下載,成人電影,色情電影,TOKYO HOT,SKY ANGEL,一本道,SOD,S1,ALICE JAPAN,皇冠系列,老虎系列,東京熱,亞熱,武士系列,新潮館,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,整型,水噹噹,貸款,貸款,信用貸款,宜蘭民宿,花蓮民宿,未婚聯誼,網路購物,珠海,下川島,常平,珠海,澳門機票,香港機票,婚友,婚友社,未婚聯誼,交友,婚友,婚友社,單身聯誼,未婚聯誼,未婚聯誼,婚友社,婚友,婚友社,單身聯誼,婚友,未婚聯誼,婚友社,未婚聯誼,單身聯誼,單身聯誼,婚友,單身聯誼,未婚聯誼,婚友,交友,交友,婚友社,婚友社,婚友社,大陸新娘,大陸新娘,大陸新娘,越南新娘,越南新娘,外籍新娘,外籍新娘,台中坐月子中心,搬家公司,搬家,搬家,搬家公司,線上客服,網頁設計,線上客服,網頁設計,網頁設計,土地貸款,免費資源,電腦教學,wordpress,人工植牙,關鍵字,關鍵字,seo,seo,網路排名,自然排序,網路排名軟體,
豆豆聊天室 aio交友愛情館 2008真情寫真 2009真情寫真 aa片免費看 捷克論壇 微風論壇 大眾論壇 plus論壇 080視訊聊天室 情色視訊交友90739 美女交友-成人聊天室 色情小說 做愛成人圖片區 豆豆色情聊天室 080豆豆聊天室 小辣妹影音交友網 台中情人聊天室 桃園星願聊天室 高雄網友聊天室 新中台灣聊天室 中部網友聊天室 嘉義之光聊天室 基隆海岸聊天室 中壢網友聊天室 南台灣聊天室 南部聊坊聊天室 台南不夜城聊天室 南部網友聊天室 屏東網友聊天室 台南網友聊天室 屏東聊坊聊天室 雲林網友聊天室 大學生BBS聊天室 網路學院聊天室 屏東夜語聊天室 孤男寡女聊天室 一網情深聊天室 心靈饗宴聊天室 流星花園聊天室 食色男女色情聊天室 真愛宣言交友聊天室 情人皇朝聊天室 上班族成人聊天室 上班族f1影音視訊聊天室 哈雷視訊聊天室 080影音視訊聊天室 38不夜城聊天室 援交聊天室080 080哈啦聊天室 台北已婚聊天室 已婚廣場聊天室 夢幻家族聊天室 摸摸扣扣同學會聊天室 520情色聊天室 QQ成人交友聊天室 免費視訊網愛聊天室 愛情公寓免費聊天室 拉子性愛聊天室 柔情網友聊天室 哈啦影音交友網 哈啦影音視訊聊天室 櫻井莉亞三點全露寫真集 123上班族聊天室 尋夢園上班族聊天室 成人聊天室上班族 080上班族聊天室 6k聊天室 粉紅豆豆聊天室 080豆豆聊天網 新豆豆聊天室 080聊天室 免費音樂試聽 流行音樂試聽 免費aa片試看免費a長片線上看 色情貼影片 免費a長片 本土成人貼圖站 大台灣情色網 台灣男人幫論壇 A圖網 嘟嘟成人電影網 火辣春夢貼圖網 情色貼圖俱樂部 台灣成人電影 絲襪美腿樂園 18美女貼圖區 柔情聊天網 707網愛聊天室聯盟 台北69色情貼圖區 38女孩情色網 台灣映像館 波波成人情色網站 美女成人貼圖區 無碼貼圖力量 色妹妹性愛貼圖區 日本女優貼圖網 日本美少女貼圖區 亞洲風暴情色貼圖網 哈啦聊天室 美少女自拍貼圖 辣妹成人情色網 台北女孩情色網 辣手貼圖情色網 AV無碼女優影片 男女情色寫真貼圖 a片天使俱樂部 萍水相逢遊戲區 平水相逢遊戲區 免費視訊交友90739 免費視訊聊天 辣妹視訊 - 影音聊天網 080視訊聊天室 日本美女肛交 美女工廠貼圖區 百分百貼圖區 亞洲成人電影情色網 台灣本土自拍貼圖網 麻辣貼圖情色網 好色客成人圖片貼圖區 711成人AV貼圖區 台灣美女貼圖區 筱萱成人論壇 咪咪情色貼圖區 momokoko同學會視訊 kk272視訊 情色文學小站 成人情色貼圖區 嘟嘟成人網 嘟嘟情人色網 - 貼圖區 免費色情a片下載 台灣情色論壇 成人影片分享 免費視訊聊天區 微風 成人 論壇 kiss文學區 taiwankiss文學區
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
菲
梵,
Post a Comment