1.06.2009

Be Careful Where You Get Your Stimulus

The consensus among the blogosphere seems to be that Obama's proposal for a $300 billion tax cut is intended as a preemptive concession to the right in order to build bipartisan support for his economic stimulus initiative. Obama, certainly, has a lot of incentives to get Republicans on board with his bill. As his first major initiative out of the gate, building a "bipartisan" stimulus might allow Obama to maintain the pretense of being post-partisan (something which, for all the left's skepticism of it, probably helps his approval ratings and thereby his political capital). It might insulate him from taking all of the criticism if the stimulus fails to stimulate. Arguably, a larger majority might also do more to bolster consumer and investor confidence. Still, the feeling on the left is that Obama is mistaking this for an opportunity to build political capital, when it should be one of the times that he spends it.

What this analysis seems to be taking for granted is that the tax cuts are something the Obama administration does not want on their own merits. This, however, is far from self-evident. Obama's economic team is fairly centrist, number one. Obama campaigned on a tax cut, number two (albeit a tax cut paired with a tax hike for the wealthy). And number three, even most liberal economists seem to think that some measure of tax cuts are a decent idea, although there are questions about which taxes should be cut and in what amounts. (Likewise, most conservative economists seem to think that some measure of spending increases are a good idea -- it's just a question of how much).

Basically, I would resist the temptation on either side to see the stimulus in too overtly ideological terms. The ordinary rules are suspended during a severe recession: what matters is -- empirically, theoretically -- What Works. Instead, I would encourage everyone to cut down on their consumption of political blogs for the next few weeks and instead read more of Brad DeLong and Greg Mankiw and Paul Krugman and Tyler Cohen. Those are the sorts of people I'm interested in listening to on this; all others must bring data.

Where I think there is more room for partisanship is in discussing how we spend what we spend, and how we cut taxes where we cut them. An $800 billion stimulus package that consisted of $500 billion in alt.energy investments and $300 billion in FICA tax cuts would be quite progressive -- and quite different from one that contained $500 billion in defense spending and $300 billion in capital gains tax cuts, even if the proposals happened to be relatively similar in terms of the immediate-term objective of ending the recession.

This is not to say that the how much questions are entirely within the domain of economic analysis, nor that the how questions are entirely within the domain of political analysis -- there are obviously some overlaps between the two. But the trade-off between, say, building bridges and building solar power grids is easier for political folk to understand than the relative abstraction of whether to spend a marginal $100 billion at the cost of running up the deficit. For the latter sorts of questions, I would tend to defer to the economists in the audience.

80 comments

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

The state of the economy in the hands of the W is such that the TALK of a stimulus package is generating hope on Wall Street.

Move to the dustbin of history, supply-side economics.

Corey Bunje Bower said...

psst: you misspelled "empirically"

Statler N Waldorf said...

Tax cuts? Oh come on!

Some times I think the baby boomers, who are now approaching retirement age, have latched onto the idea of massively overindulging themselves by paying for everything on credit and leaving the bill for their kids. The same generation that became famous for ingesting every form of mind altering chemical they could get their hands on, and then for glutting themselves on food until they began to exert their own gravitational fields, is now suggesting that we continue spending a ridiculous amount of ca$h on programs THEY like (such as war, defense, throwing everybody in prison and committing state-sanctioned homicide (aka the death penalty)). And all the while, they WHINE about how much this is costing their TAXES! Oh you poor things! You're so fucking deprived! Of every generation America has ever produced, have there ever been so many spoiled brats as there are in the Baby Boom?

Talk about Peter Pan syndrome. Even a lack of money won't stop you from overindulging in killing and locking people up, no! You'll just shuffle the bill off to your kids! Because fuck the next generation, right? America's future doesn't matter! Just glut your every impulse today, live for the moment, baby! The only thing that matters is that you get off, right? The 'Me' Generation - burn your draft cards when you're old enough to get drafted, then declare war every chance you get once you're too old to join the Army! You're only anti-war as long as you can't get shot!

Or maybe you can generate revenue by slashing social programs. Those poor people are to blame for our lack of money, not the War in Iraq! Don't pay attention to the 700 billion dollars we wasted on Wall Street, no, the real problem is the $300 a month in food stamps we spend on a mother with four kids living in a homeless shelter! Let's blame the poor, because they can't afford the lawyers we can to fight back!

I will be very happy when the baby boomers have at least retired, so we can inform them that their 15 minutes are up. Take your geriatric acid, go stare at the pretty colors, and let us drive the car now, before you drive us over a cliff.

itzajob said...

How does this federal tax cut business work when increases in state & local taxes offset them and more?

I just wrote the check covering the new 7% increase in my NYC property taxes (now over $6000/year on a small 1 bedroom condo in a middle class building in Manhattan). I expect state and city income tax to go up, too, as soon as Albany gets its act together.

And many middle and upper middle class people in high wage/tax/cost of living places will have to pay alternative minimum tax, anyway, so even their federal taxes won't go down.

Not even if they're now unemployed.

Lee said...

It's Tyler Cowen.

fred said...

Nate-

Exactly! Because it is a tax cut does not mean it is a republican idea! These tax cuts actually match well with what Obama said he would do to stimulate the economy BEFORE the meltdown and Lehman Brothers.

How dumb are the folks at DailyKOS and Firdoglake? They do not seem to understand that O bama is using this as an excuse to do what he planned on doing already, but doing it FASTER!

The only real change from the campaign trail is waiting for the Bush tax cuts to expire in 2010 instead of extinguishing them.

Lefties- learn to think, and quit reacting BEFORE doing so!

This stimulus plan is good for the DEMOCRATIC AGENDA!

fred said...

itzajob-

Move to a state with a sound fiscal policy, they do exist.

itzajob said...

Fred (& Nate),

Please explain to me again how there is a stimulus when the net tax rate (federal + state + local) increases?

itzajob said...

Fred,

I would really like to know, so please do respond in a non- facetious way.

Juris said...

@itzajob: excellent question. This has been a trend of long standing on a national scale. Not in my state (MI), however.

Charles said...

itzajob,

You may in fact be correct that your net tax rate increases depending on your locality. My question to you would be, how is that the concern of Obama or the federal government? You elected your state and local officials, so if they raise your taxes so much it offsets the decreases from the feds, you have no one to blame but yourself (and fellow state and local voters.)

shenart said...

On this I totally agree with Paul Krugman's alarm and concerns.

fred said...

itzajob-

In the end Obama can only do what he can do. Your local gov may have issues, and be complete crap, and the tax increase there may make the Obama tax cut moot for you - BUT you are much better off with a federal tax cut, whether your local taxes go up or not.

Lupercal said...

i never really understood how everyone all of a sudden became an all-purpose expert on these issues. You've got the guys at tpm and now nate ( i think) is following the same path. could you at least just throw it out there that it's just your humble opinion, explicitly? i know it's intended as such, but you're acting like you're a force to be reckoned with on these issues- which is what i've always found repulsive from our fellow republican commentators and talkshow hosts, amongst other things.

fred said...

Paul Krugman makes no sense. He argues that even more spending on infrastructure will help more, when it will take longer for infrastructure spending to affect the economy and we currently need to blunt the next shoe to drop - which will be in retail, retail jobs, and commercial real estate. How do we blunt this shoe? We do it by adding more money to pocketbooks who will spend it and decrease the harm to retail. We still maintain infrastructure spending for longer term growth and jobs.

Krugman seems to have the same slavish dependence to one way of thought that got us into this in the first place.

Lupercal said...

im being clumsy. what i mean is that, i know the election is over. But how does a guy specializing in process politics all of a sudden an expert in policies and policy papers? no transitions. just bam. you're the next Larry Summers.

shenart said...

Reply to fred- I was really disappointed with 'Conscience of a Liberal' but I agree that Obama's plan raises red flags. We need to get away from Friedmanism, Greenspanism and Ayn Rand.

fred said...

shenart-

How the hell is Obama's plan, that you voted for in the election, Ann Raynd, trickle down, or anything else?

It is Freidman to the extent that is cuts taxes, but he is not cutting taxes based on income, he is cutting based on employment. Thus, if you have a job paying 10,000 or 100,000 a year you get $500 bucks. How is that trickle down?

Did you people even read the plan?

fred said...

Obama's tax cut is much more akin to a rebate, than a tax cut.

He also tries to help small businesses, but those are the one that create most jobs so how is that not a job creation mechanism?

fred said...

The tank you paid for was just used to kill children at the school that you paid for. Now that is a sick irony if their ever was one.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE50548920090106?sp=true

Juris said...

@Lupercal: maybe he's really smart and reads a lot. I take people's claims for expertise as just that -- claims. But when they put together convincing analyses and arguments, I pay attention to them, but always in the context of potentially contrasting or contradictory information or conclusions.

Even the gods aren't always right, and they certain don't agree with one another on everything.

Ezzie said...

@Lupercal - I share your argument about a lot of sites, but not this one. Nate's not Larry Summers, but he was an economics professional before he was into political process. And frankly, Nate's staying at a safe level of generality - this is not grad level macro we're dealing with.


@Fred

I think you're misreading/misunderstanding/failing to give a fair shake to Krugman. He thinks the recession without a substantial stimulus is going to be long and deep.

The speed advantage of tax cuts is less important, because even infrastructure spending that takes six months to become shovel-ready is put to good use.

Hence, he thinks the stimulus should be larger and tilted towards infrastructure, because the additional bang for your buck from infrastructure outweighs the need for speed.

@ itzajob - What Fred said. Whether the state taxes swamp the federal tax cut or not, you're better off with the federal tax cut. You get a stimulus from the federal tax cut either way, the only question is whether it beats back state tax increases or merely mitigates the damage of what Krugman called 50 Herbert Hoovers. (Though to be fair, they're often locked in by state constitutions).

WV: gingsta: Newt Gingrich's rapper friends.

Ezzie said...

@shenart

This is only a Republican plan if you've been fooled about what Republicans stand for.

Democrats didn't oppose Republican tax plans for the past eight years because we like higher taxes. We opposed dumb tax cuts and tax cuts that disproportionately helped the rich.

Every Dem, after all, campaigned on cutting taxes for the middle class, or at least leaving the middle-class portion of Bush's tax cuts intact.

This is neither. The plan primarily helps the middle class (I'm single and make 125,000 a year, and it looks like all the tax cuts go below me - as they should.)

Its also not stupid. Tax cuts are needed as a part of the stimulus because we don't have 700 billion worth of shovel ready projects, let alone the larger amounts people like Krugman would like.

Michael said...

Charles posted:

"itzajob,

You may in fact be correct that your net tax rate increases depending on your locality. My question to you would be, how is that the concern of Obama or the federal government?"

It's the concern of the federal government because if people don't have disposable income to spend, the economic stimulus goes "Poof!"

Ezzie posted:

"@ itzajob - What Fred said. Whether the state taxes swamp the federal tax cut or not, you're better off with the federal tax cut. You get a stimulus from the federal tax cut either way, the only question is whether it beats back state tax increases or merely mitigates the damage of what Krugman called 50 Herbert Hoovers."

Here in New York, we'd do a lot better to have a big federal bailout of the state budget - such as by rescuing the Metropolitan Transit Authority from huge fare increases and horrible service cuts at a time when ridership is rising and should be encouraged to rise further, for all sorts of important reasons - than to have a useless tax cut that's going to be swamped by the city and state nickling and diming us on every imaginable kind of "service fee."

I hope we end up getting both federal tax cuts and such a huge bailout.

And I think it's a bit unfair to blame New York State for the state of our finances. Remember that Wall St. is in New York, and you'll understand that a lot of what's going on amounts to an "act of God," as far as the city and state budget is concerned. No-one working on budgets expected this level of deficits.

wv: prevaman. New super hero or prophylactic drug? You decide.

S.P. Weston said...

Nate,

The notion that tax cuts are Republican/conservative springs from an understanding of what it means to be Democratic/liberal. For folks who deeply assume that government needs to spend much more, all cuts are bad cuts and all cuts are selling out to the enemy.

It isn't true that all Democrats and liberals want higher taxes and bigger spending reflexively. It is true, though, that some of us think the the path to a fairer society requires major redistribution of wealth and some of us think that path requires a major increase in social services. For that fraction of us, any reduction in federal revenue is a step in the wrong direction.

(I'm not in that "fraction of us." I'm in the fraction that wants the main focus on robust markets, with regulation to keep them robust and government services deployed based on strong justifications rather than reflex. But the other brands of Democrats are also central to the vitality of of my party, so I don't want to say "them" if I can avoid it.)

David said...

From a purely political perspective (no alliteration intended), Obama's ability to cobble together a significant majority in both houses of Congress is hamstrung by the limits of presidential prestige and the office's ability to herd legislators towards an administration position. Obviously, the House, with its herd mentality and increased sensitivity to constituent pressures is more susceptible to such pressures, so he probably will have an easier time there if Madam Speaker will let him. Conversely, the combination of the traditional Senate insularity against outside pressures and the previously demonstrated ineptitude of Harry Reid's leadership and his inability to both maintain party discipline on policy votes and obtain votes from across the aisle will make the Senate a greater challenge for Obama to influence, unless he puts in sweeteners that will allow people like Lindsay Graham and Arlen Specter to accept an additional stimulus package.

Cugel said...

The problem is that to "compromise" with Republicans simply means caving in to their extremist ideology!

If a right-winger hears "Tax cut" they immediately start arguing for tax cuts for the rich: eliminate capital gains taxes, lowering the top marginal income tax rates, eliminate rather than raise the alternative minimum tax and eliminate the estate tax. So, compromise simply means we're going to have to keep the Bush tax cuts, and that will doom anything else Obama might want to do for the next 8 years!

The middle class won't benefit at all from all that crap! (who has capital gains right now)?

The minute you talk about taxes every Republican in Congress starts screaming about keeping the Bush Tax cuts, and argues that "we can't afford a tax increase at this time" (the tax "increase" means allowing the Bush cuts to expire).

Thus, either Congress passes a DEMOCRATIC tax cut bill which will actually put money in the pockets of middle class consumers, or else funds another trillion dollar giveaway to the richest.

America's biggest problem of the last two decades is the ever expanding gap between the rich and poor, which ballooned hugely as a result of the Bush tax cuts for the rich. All those capital gains tax cuts fueled the Wall Street speculation that created the bubble that now has collapsed, tanking the economy with it!

To get any Republicans on board a bill it has to suck! It has to be larded with more giveaways for the rich, at hideous expense to everyone else. For every dollar that goes into the pockets of the working class, there has to be two, three, five times as much for the top 1%.

We were about to be able to readjust the tax burden from poor to rich by getting rid of the Bush tax cuts and reestablishing the tax rates of the Clinton Administration. That would do nothing to reverse the immense and growing rift in America between rich and poor, but it would at least slow the destruction of our society.

Because money equals power. And if the top 1% have all the money, they have all the power as well. That's the very idea of an Aristocracy of inherited wealth and privilege -- we're going right back to the Guilded Age of the 1890s.

But now, all we'll be able to "afford" are tax cuts. Because if we're going to do anything about health-care reform, or building an alternative energy grid or solving global warming or providing education the middle class can afford, we need MONEY!

And once Republicans get their tax cuts for the rich, they'll immediately start howling about "fiscal responsibility" and the media will reflect their cries and the "conventional wisdom" will be "we can't afford all that" stuff Obama wants to do! Not in this recession!

"Fiscal responsibility" means we can only give money to the rich, never for the poor or middle class, so if Wall Street needs a $700 billion bailout, that's fine, but forget about spending on health care!

There is no compromising with Republican scum, any more than the French Revolutionaries could "compromise" with the Ancien Regime back in 1789. Either you're going to abolish feudalism and Aristocratic Rule or you're not. There's not a lot of room for a middle ground.

Same thing here. Either we take our country back from the top 1% of corporatists and their hired politicians in both parties or we're going to see them gain ever more power over our lives.

There is no room for compromise. We need to use the financial collapse to regain control over our country, just as FDR and the New Deal did in the 30's.

That's exactly why millions of people had such hopes for Obama. Because we believed we were on the verge of taking America back. And now we're just being set up for one huge betrayal after another!

Statler N Waldorf said...

And a Sappy New Year!

Statler N Waldorf said...

Cugel,


And he hasn't even been sworn in yet!

First Rick Warren, now this, next what?

Nothing says 1 term Presidency like screwing your base. Those conservatives you're reaching out to will not vote for a wannabe Republican when they can get the real thing. Swing voters are moved more by the courage of convictions than they are by compromise. Alienate the liberals, and what's left?

Especially since a lot of us really poured effort and money into electing the SOB. I for one do not feel inclined to do so once again if he's going to act like a Republican.

fred said...

I think I get Krugman, but what I don't get about Krugman is his slavish need to hammer a stimulus that actually helps the little guy. How about a redistribution that rewards work and reduces taxes at the low end, but doesn't increase the taxes at the high end to a great extent? Obama spoke for that, why folks are now against that when he is doing exactly that puzzles me.

If a larger stimulus is needed, we will get it from a flexible Fed and a smart President.

A mix of short and medium term stimulus (immediate payroll tax cuts followed by infrstructure spending) sures seems the right balance to me. And I personally like it alot better than stimulus checks, it shows up in your paycheck and should be much cheaper to implement.

Dale said...

Obama is proposing rebates, not tax cuts. You can't cut a person's federal income tax, if that person does not pay anything to begin with.

fred said...

Dale-

Obama is proposing and tax cut but to those folks making little it is through the EITC (e.g. a rebate), unless the proposal changed today. Lots of folks will get an actual tax cut as well.

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

Where is it written that tax cuts for the middle class, or even better, for the poorest tax payers, is a "conservative" or "republican" idea? Is this some secret platform plank that never gets discussed?

I remember the battles inside the economics department between the Supply-Side professors and the ACTUAL professors. It all seemed like such fun in the late 80s and early 90s to hear actual tenured professors TRY to justify trickle-down economics without pissing on the poor.

Increasing the ABSOLUTE SIZE of the middle-class and stimulating the economy with worthwhile projects are the engine to returning to a healthy economy. Figuring out ways to get the poorest of our county to join the middle-class and increase their standard of living is far more helpful than helping those have that the most get more.

wv. lostrack - The nation has lostrack of the lessons learned during the Great Depression

Myron said...

Oh look, male rider has come to the party to spew xenophobic right-wing garbage again. Yaay!

I find it hilarious that the same nut-jobs who got us into this mess think they know the best way to get us out. It is similar to letting arsonists become fire fighters. Makes about as much sense too. Well, what do you expect from the party who wanted Sarah Palin as VP????

Myron said...

Hmmm, didn't 53% of Americans vote for "the most liberal senator in the history of senators". Wait, I thought we were a "center-right" nation.......

Silly male rider, dicks are for chicks!

juvanya said...

Statler, nice jab at the Baby Boomers. That generation has destroyed our society.

fred said...

"Where is it written that tax cuts for the middle class, or even better, for the poorest tax payers, is a "conservative" or "republican" idea? Is this some secret platform plank that never gets discussed?"


Isn't this EXACTLY what Obama said he would do? He was a liberal when he said this in the campaign, and now when he does it he is a conservative? HUH?

Ian said...

OT: Roland Burris is rejected by the secretary of the senate, based on the lack of the Illinois secretary of state's signature on the letter from Blagojavich.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/us/politics/07burris.html?_r=1&hp

fred said...

Ian-

that makes the Burriss case before the IL SC requiring the SoS to sign is very ripe for decision.

Anyone know the status?

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

@ Fred

Exactly

It is EXACTLY what President-Elect Obama said he would do. It is EXACTLY what John McCain attempted to DISTORT by pointing to "That One" while offering more Supply-side idiocy.

It is a return to what FDR did in the 1930s. Imagine that a Democratic President would want to invoke the economic policies of the most successful democratic president while using the imagery of the most iconic politician from Illinois.

Maybe THAT is why so many people voted for him.

Labelling all tax cuts as the province of ONE PARTY is a MEME to turn rational discussion into slogan shouting. If people just parrot slogans, then the discussion becomes meaningless. It becomes as trite as the old CNN show "Crossfire", which Jon Stewart effectively (and humorously) destroyed in ten minutes.

KWRegan said...

Indeed, Tyler Co*w*en, fellow member of the Dumont NJ Chess Mates club and some winning US Amateur teams in the mid-1970s.

There's also this two-part NY Times article by Michael Lewis and David Einhorn: The End, How to Repair...---it's specific to fixing and regulating the financial world, but the contrast between stimulus and credit-"reflating" is relevant.

WV "pesseto": what the dollar could become if the fixes don't work.

PorridgeGun said...

Nate Silver said...

Instead, I would encourage everyone to cut down on their consumption of political blogs for the next few weeks and instead read more of Brad DeLong and Greg Mankiw and Paul Krugman and Tyler Cohen. Those are the sorts of people I'm interested in listening to on this; all others must bring data.



Well, the likes of Josh Marshall, Aravosis, Kos, Jed L and Amato are taking their cues from Krugman...and he's shitting himself at the prospect of Obama making concessions to the people responsible for this depression. Krugman is genuinely spooked. The blogosphere are just linking to his NYT op-eds and are generally agreeing with what he has to say.


Obama's extremely popular at the moment, and rightly so. But he's making the same mistake Tony Blair did in 1997. Both swept into power with huge majorities, a clear mandate for change, and a conservative party smashed by corruption and incompetence. The problem is, Obama, like Blair, is naive to think he can get everyone on board. Blair tried to please everyone, and ended up pleasing non one, particularly the left. It's even more blatant with Obama. Nobody is calling on Obama to pander to the left the way Bush did with his coservative nutbase, but he has to govern as a progressive. The likes of Mitch McConnell and John Cornyn have no intention of letting him govern effectively, no matter how centrist his policies are. And they certainly have no intention of acting in a bipartisan manner. I mean, look at how the RNC chair tried to smear Obama with Blagojevich literally hours after the news broke. Obama and Reid have 3-4 senators to work with. If Obama can't get his agenda passed without making concessions to raving wingnut like Mitch McConnell, then both he and the country is fucked.

Obama's smart, but it's fair to say he's recieved some dodgy advice from some real dipshits since arriving in Washington. He voted for the bankruptsy bill, he voted for FISA, and even associating with Rick Warren is bad idea. Obama should have cut all ties to this screwball following Rev. Rick's Saddleback Sham.

Even though he's from the Robert Rubin school of economic douchebaggery, Tim Geithner was probably the right choice for Treasury Secretary. Larry Summers, on the other hand, shouldn't be allowed anywhere near economic policy ever again. What worries people is, that the Rubin/Summers crowd haven't learn't from their mistakes and are gonna fuck Obama over.



Btw, JFK trusted the wrong people for the first couple of years of his presidency, which he obviously came to regret. It was only after the Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile Crisis that he became more independent and trusted his instincts more.

fred said...

"Well, the likes of Josh Marshall, Aravosis, Kos, Jed L and Amato are taking their cues from Krugman...and he's shitting himself at the prospect of Obama making concessions to the people responsible for this depression. Krugman is genuinely spooked. The blogosphere are just linking to his NYT op-eds and are generally agreeing with what he has to say."

An extremely sad state of affairs. Krugman is one economist, and Bernanke and Summers are also two good economists. The liberal blogosphere that was such a great tool to get Obama elected is turning into a bunch of whining jerks who are trying to ruin this thing before it starts.

nikip5555 said...

Nate, I agree that this is beyond ideology - it has to be about what gets the job done. This is NOT an area where every "point of view" needs to be incorporated!! Cold hard reality is what counts.

The cold hard reality is that tax cuts are at best a weak stimulus for the economy. Businesses don't hire people just because they have money - they hire people when they expect their business to grow. People don't spend more money just because they got a $500 check in the mail or because their paycheck grew slightly if they are worried about losing their jobs -- never mind those who have already lost their jobs. Finally, we have empirical proof from the last round of rebates, which generated very little new economic activity.

I am with Krugman that this has to be all about spending. Spending will put people to work who otherwise would be unemployed. These people will have the job security and confidence to buy things. When businesses see solid growing demand they will be able to borrow money and expand their own workforce. IT'S ALL ABOUT SPENDING!

Krugman's also right that deficits are not a worry in the near term. People are begging to lend money to the US government! We can borrow very cheaply, invest in people and infrastructure, get the economy going, and then pay down the debt when the economy is healthy and a small extra tax burden will not drag it down.

What we're seeing now is exactly what worried me about Obama from the beginning: he is trying so hard to keep everyone happy that he is giving away the farm. We CAN'T AFFORD to SCREW UP the stimulus package to pander to some right-wing ideology with NO BASIS IN REALITY!! (sorry for shouting, y'all)

PorridgeGun said...

Fred said...

The only real change from the campaign trail is waiting for the Bush tax cuts to expire in 2010 instead of extinguishing them.




That's bad enoough.


Rollback the Bush tax cuts for the rich bandits, cut military spending, rebuild America's infrastructure, create jobs and stimulate the middle class.

And gut the CIA and Justice Dept. while you're at it.

MN said...

I'd appreciate some defense spending cuts myself. Look, I'm excited about new cool weapons as the next person, probably more but things like missile defense and autonomous robots will lead to wasted dollars and organic subjugation by machine life.

Honestly, has NO ONE in the military ever read science fiction or are they just unimaginative dolts? I understand modern militaries rely on managers and not generals, but come on now. Robots are always a bad idea.

fred said...

"Rollback the Bush tax cuts for the rich bandits, cut military spending, rebuild America's infrastructure, create jobs and stimulate the middle class."


At the cost of a more damaged economy? No thanks. Obama has a good short and long term plan.

Ezzie said...

Fred,

I do think you're not getting Krugman. The parts of the stimulus you're praising, generally on board with. Look at his recent post "Stimulus Arithmetic."

He's fine with personal tax cuts as a necessary part of the stimulus. What he isn't on board with are the business tax cuts, which he feels are less efficient than personal tax cuts if you want tax cuts for speed.

That, and he'd like it to be bigger as a whole.

Mrs B said...

I am not an economist but... I know a man who is. Over here in the UK we have a guy called Vince Cable, who is the deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats. He has been right about every single thing that has happened so far in this recession - even to predicting debt and the mortgage market were out of control as early as 2005. He is responsible for the tax policy of the Lib Dems, and our policy is to introduce tax cuts for low and middle income people (I think including raising the threshold at which you start paying tax) and toclose tax loop holes for the rich. Nothing conservative about that. The Lib Dems have the MOST REDISTRIBUTIVE tax policies of any party. Just like in the US, the gap between rich and poor has widened in recent years and IT IS TIME TO PEG IT BACK.
If tax cuts for the poor and middle income people is progressive in the UK, it's progressive in the US. The only difficulty is how much Obama might be forced to compromise to get this through.
Politically, bear in mind, there are far more poor and middle income people than there are rich people (even if a lot of people get confused about where they are in the pecking order). If the Republicans favour the rich over the rest now we are in a recession, they will be hammered in 2010 - it is not the same at all as when the good times were rolling, and everyone thought they were about to get on the gravy train.

Oh and in case somebody (MR??) wants to suggest my opinion is worth nothing because a) I am not a US citizen and b) the Lib Dems are only the third most popular party in the UK, I say a) the world is in this together (I could say "you started it" but that would be mean) and b) being right and being popular rarely go together.

Ezzie said...

PorridgeGun,

I oppose the tax cuts for the rich as much as anyone else, but eliminating that tax cut during a recession would be Hoovertastic. This is not the time to force a cut in consumer spending.

PorridgeGun said...
This post has been removed by the author.
fred said...

"I do think you're not getting Krugman. The parts of the stimulus you're praising, generally on board with. Look at his recent post "Stimulus Arithmetic."

He's fine with personal tax cuts as a necessary part of the stimulus. What he isn't on board with are the business tax cuts, which he feels are less efficient than personal tax cuts if you want tax cuts for speed."

I think bigger is better as well, but they can and will increase it as needed. I also agree the personal tax cuts are best for the retail economy. I think the hammering of business tax cuts underestimates the great pain that even Forune 500's are feeling right now, and any stimulus to them will likely result in decreased layoffs - which is agreat for the economy and is being grossly underestimated in the economic pieces I have seen.

PorridgeGun said...

juvanya said...

Statler, nice jab at the Baby Boomers. That generation has destroyed our society.



Fuck the Baby Boomers! Generation X & Y FTW!!!

Mrs B said...

MR, my husband has just laughed himself sick at the idea that I am humble. The reason I don't shout etc is quite simply because like Mary Poppins I am practically perfect in every way.

Myron said...

Only a disfigured troglodyte would even think about voting for Palin. Sometimes the shoe fits....

Mrs B said...

hey, Nate has posted about a party!
For those of us who can't make it, hope there will be a live blog...
and photos!

PeteKent said...

The sad truth is we are headed for an economic downturn of major proportions no matter what we do.

This day of reckoning has been brought to us by both political parties and their greedy business allies who run this nation with an iron fist.

The liberals wanted every clown to own a house without regard to ability to pay. The housing and lending industries took advantage of this and let the floodgates open inviting speculation and a go-go housing boom which allowed ordinary consumers to use their home equity as literal checkbooks to buy Hawaiian vacations and nifty Beemers.

Meanwhile Bush with the approval of ALL in Congress spent like a drunken sailor cutting taxes all the while and providing a heckuva a party while it lasted.

We forestalled one recession with stimulus payments back early in the decade and barely delayed the onset of the present one with the last set of checks issued on the Treasury.

Rightly, Obama seems to see the mailing of checks as being a temporary palliative that engenders a burst of spending that does little to promote long term economic good. Foolishly, he has signed on with those who believe we can spend our way out of the present downturn by building infrastructure (no one talks about phantom and fictive green jobs anymore -- face it enviro wackos you have been thrown under the bus with the Gays, you just have not been run over yet!).

This notion that infrastructure spending can cure our economic ills is pure baloney and is simply the only acceptable place for Obama to park the cash he is itching to spend so he can appear to be dealing with the crisis (he won’t spend it on defense). Construction projects will take at least six months to get off the ground, given the need for bidding and planning, etc. By then unemployment will be at 10% and we will be spinning out of control to the point where the spending won’t matter much -- the suffering will already be grave.
Obama wants to spend the money so he can look like he is doing something. Suddenly, though, he has gotten "supply side religion" and is now talking about tax cuts. The tax cuts are not at all like the income distribution that got Joe the Plumber all irate, but relatively broad-based reductions in taxes for Americans in general coupled with tax cut incentives for business. Ronald Reagan redux?

Obama knows that spending by the great unwashed out there is not likely to do much other than to give America a temporary sugar high so he is concentrating more and more of his fire power on business, which has long been the engine of economic progress.

What's next? More free trade agreements and deregulation? One can only hope!

These are the time-tested ways to usher in and maintain prosperity and no bunch of liberal freaks who barely can do basic math (think Katrina VandenHeuval and Rachel Maddow along with Bathtub Boy and Freakos Moulitsas) are going to dissuade our new President from trying to do things the only way that works. He cannot repeal the laws of physics or economics, even if he may be able to walk on water.

Still, we Republicans know that the business cycle cannot be abolished and that the downturn is inevitable. Obama will ultimately wreck his administration on the twin shoals of inflation and unemployment if he goes ahead with the folly of spending all this money. We would do things in a much more targeted and measured way, creating the incentives at the places where the jobs are created and the big money is spent and invested. Obama will do a half-assed job of it.

And in so-doing will piss all the liberals off mightily!

Jenny said...

"Be carefull where you get your stimulus" -- that's what Larry Craig says!

PeteKent said...

Nice to see Mule Rider and Mrs. B.

PeteKent said...

Apropos of nothing it was reported yesterday that the extent of sea ice is at its highest level in 29 years and the earth's temperatures fell for the 10th stright year in 2008.

So much for global warming!

PeteKent said...

I am delighted to see that libs like Porridge Gun now realize how deceieved they have been by Obama as the rest of us!

He wrote to my delight:

"Obama's smart, but it's fair to say he's recieved some dodgy advice from some real dipshits since arriving in Washington. He voted for the bankruptsy bill, he voted for FISA, and even associating with Rick Warren is bad idea. Obama should have cut all ties to this screwball following Rev. Rick's Saddleback Sham."

Obama has yet to reveal himself to the nation. When he does so, many will be surprised.

Lovely, how he is spendign nearly $60,000 to educate his girls. How elitist!

He is as corrupt as his mentors Blago and Rezko.

livemild said...

Petekent -
heard about the British Columbia forests?

why are you here again?

Kennyb said...

Jeb Bush announces he will not run for Mel Martinez's Senate seat.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/01/06/washington/AP-Florida-Senate-Bush.html

And in only semi-related news, a federal judge (a Reagan appointee) has accused the Bush administration of hiding evidence in the case of a Yemen man who has been held as a terror suspect at Guantanamo Bay for six years.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/01/06/washington/AP-Guantanamo-Detainees.html

Ezzie said...

Uhh, Pete, mind citing your source for global temperatures falling for ten straight years?

It would be a pretty impressive feat, since 2007 was not only hotter than 2006, but tied with with 1998 for the hottest year in the last century . . .

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20080116/

Kennyb said...

And CNN's Sanjay Gupta tapped for Surgeon General.

Kennyb said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Kennyb said...

Ezzie, Pete is right at least as to recent Arctic sea ice levels, although he's cherry-picking data that is likely irrelevant to any arguments about global warming. Arctic sea ice levels have rebounded substantially this season (http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.jpg), although annual average Northern Hemispheric sea ice is still trending to historically low levels (http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seasonal.extent.1900-2007.jpg).

DaWolf said...

@Mule Rider

"Well, humble or not, you offer (mostly) pleasant posts in here. That's what counts. Civil discourse."

good to see your hypocritical gene is still going strong

DaWolf said...

@Ezzie

"Uhh, Pete, mind citing your source for global temperatures falling for ten straight years?"

Pigs will fly before Pete posts a source. Especially since that source doesn't exist...

DaWolf said...

@Mule Rider

"I assume you're referring to me, pea-brain, so I'll respond that I didn't think about voting for Palin (or McCain for that matter). I didn't vote at all...not for McCain/Palin OR Obama/Biden.

I've never voted Republican. Never sent the party a dime or done anything else that might count as "support.""

That's because you're what, 12?

Myron said...

Poor Male Rider, he still doesn't know that dix are for chix. Silly rabbit.

Pity the clown as he is likely brain damaged. You would have to be to post some of the rubbish he has posted here. What, fox news kick you out, male rider?

Maybe if repubs weren't knuckle-draggers who don't believe in science or facts, then they would get some respect. But since a large lot of them think climate change is a hoax and that evolution is some crazy "librul" conspiracy, well, then, intelligent people find it hard to respect them.

Myron said...

Silly male rider. Why are you still posting? Your comments would be funny if they weren't so sad.

Maybe you should put the crystal meth away. Do you think anyone here thinks you have even one functioning brain cell? You are a joke, just like the "views" you present.

Looks like you are about as smart as "Joe the non-plumber". Wasn't that dipshit telling the press that it would have been a good idea to privatize SS? Oh yes, another glorious repub policy. You guys are effing retards.



You don't know the meaning of the word "intelligent", dimwit. Or of the word "socialism". Pathetic ass-clown. Do you even know that we already have a progressive tax system? Do you even know what that means? Go get back on the short bus, and learn English before posting here, you sorry piece of taint.

Or, better yet, scurry on back to fox news, where idiots like you can troll and wallow in your collective stupidity.

By the way, a BLACK man with barely any experience, who went to church where the pastor screamed "God Damn America!", and with the middle name HUSSEIN just got elected PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!

That's right dumb-ass, Americans voted for him over a war hero because republicans F*cked everything up, beyond all recognition. Hurts, doesn't it?

Eat that, salad-tosser.

Ema Nymton said...

Holy fuck!

Pete Kent, you've got to be the dumbest sack of shit alive!

Domino said...

You forgot Mark Thoma, Naked Capitalism, Econbrowser and the Economist's Free Exchange blog.
To round off the better economist blogs.

All of these, along with the ones you mentioned above tend to bounce ideas off one another (aka criticize or give back-rubs) and so I think they should all be included.

Domino said...

Wow, (having just read through the comments) I can't help but wonder if anyone even bothers to look at the wonderful economists blogs that Nate linked. It's a good mix with Mankiw (GOP) and Cohen (Libertarian)on the right and DeLong on the left and Krugman to his left. A good mix of opinions from various perspectives (in addition to the ones I noted in my other comment). IF they all ever manage to agree on something you should be damned well certain that it's the right thing to do. So fellow 538 readers, put your ideology aside and take some good advise when offered. The academic economists make much stronger arguments than the political blogs and fiscal stimulus is their cup of tea.
Thanks Nate!

Beau said...

if now is a time for banking political capital, what's he saving it for? should we be looking for big things on the horizon?

wern said...

Arlen Specter looks terrible, his health could be a concern.

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