12.29.2008

You Are A Republican! A Socratic Dialogue on the Stimulus Bill

Imagine for a moment that you are a Republican Congressman. I know, I know -- it hasn't been easy lately. Thank G-d you've been on vacation. Tried to avoid the constituents. Too depressing to go to to the office. Hell, too depressing to go to Applebee's. At least you won re-election. And, boy, that Blagojevich stuff was fun to watch! But you're going back to Washington next week, and you've got to start thinking through this stimulus package thing.

The first thing you'll need to recognize is that public opinion is running against you. The public doesn't think about the stimulus as being analogous to the bailout. They can differentiate spending on highways or airports or solar power grids from spending on Morgan Stanley. CNN's new poll has the public backing it 56-42. Not overwhelming, but pretty solid. And that number isn't liable to move in your direction, when the Democrats have Barack Obama on their team and you've got Mitch McConnell.

Fact is, you're not going to prevent a stimulus bill from passing. The House is a lost cause. Obama's walking on water right now, and even most of the Blue Dogs come from states that he won. He's not going to lose more than a handful of Democratic votes. Plus, certain of your "friends" -- moderates, blue state types -- are going to vote for the stimulus. The best you could probably do is limit the Democrats to about ~240 yea votes in the House, still plenty enough for passage. More likely, they'll be in the somewhere in the 290s or the 300s.

In you're in the Senate, of course, you could hope to mount a filibuster. But even if you could keep Snowe and Collins and Specter in line, which you probably can't, that is a dicey proposition. This is because the Obama administration will play the Emergency! card. The public is scared, and they want action. If you try to filibuster the stimulus, the Democrats will scream Emergency!, and they will frame your actions as dangerous, and maybe even a little unpatriotic. Plus, Obama will get a lot of help from the stock market. Equities are very jumpy right now, and they are assuming that the stimulus will pass (see, for instance, the big run-ups achieved in the past month by the steel industry). Were the stimulus to be significantly threatened by your filibuster, the market might dump 900 points in a day. That'll break your filibuster within 48 hours, and you'll be duly embarrassed in the process.

So the damned thing is going to pass. You have to think about how to position yourself. And you have essentially three options.

1) Try to pressure Obama into some kind of compromise, and vote for that compromise;
2) Let the stimulus pass as the Democrats choose to construct it, over your strong objection;
3) Yield to Obama, and vote for the stimulus in the name of national unity.

The third choice probably isn't very appealing to you. It might be appealing to Newt Gingrich, who is telling you that you don't have the credibility right now to pick a fight. Better off rebuidling and rebranding the party for the long term. But rebuilding and rebranding means someone other than you is in charge -- someone, for example, like Newt Gingirch. So that option is out.

So let's think through the other couple of choices. First thing first: if the economy improves substantially by the midterm elections, you're screwed. It won't matter whether you voted for the stimulus or voted against it, and it won't matter whether you achieved some kind of compromise or you didn't. If, by the summer of 2010, GDP growth has miraculously recovered to 4% per year, that's all the public is going to think about. Obama Save Economy!! Me Vote Democrat!! They aren't going to care about whether you snuck some sort of capital gains tax cut in there.

But let's say that the economy still sucks in 2010 -- which, frankly, is a pretty good bet. That's going to work much, much better for you if you've voted against the stimulus. Not only can you pin the blame on the donkeys, but you can campaign on tax cutting and fiscal responsibility -- the stimulus will "prove", once and for all, the wisdom of conservative economic principles. And then think about this: the Democrats are going to be trying to spend $800 billion in taxpayer dollars as quickly as they can possibly get away with it. Somewhere along the way, they're going to wind up funding a Woodstock Museum or a Bridge to Nowhere. Somewhere along the way, an enterprising contractor is going to embezzle a bunch of stimulus money, or cook up some kind of pay-to-play scheme. Maybe if you're really lucky, this will happen in your Distrct. Better to keep the whole thing at arm's-length and make sure that Democrats get the blame for that.

So it seems to me that your risks and rewards are pretty asymmetrical. The public loves Obama, whereas that (R) beside your name is still causing you problems, especially when every Newt and Bobby and Sarah out there is perfectly happy to throw you under the bus. Fact is, you're not going to get the benefit of the doubt. If the stimulus package is seen as a success, you aren't going to get an ounce of credit for it. But if it's seen as a failure, you'd better make damned sure that you've distanced yourself from it.

Maybe you can go through the motions of soliciting a compromise -- all the better that way to say I-told-you-so later on. But do you actually want a compromise? I think not. Better to let the Democrats be careful what they wish for, and make sure that they get it.

83 comments

hill.tops said...

Where is Bristol baby?

Paul Bradford said...

Nate,

You've put your finger on the core issue which is, "will it work". As you describe, the path for a traditional conservative Republican is pretty straightforward -- vote against the bill and draw attention to the fact you were opposed.

But what about the Democrat? The path isn't so obvious. The devil is in the details, so you know that it isn't so much a question of 'will the stimulus work?' as it is 'what kind of stimulus will work?'

The debate won't hinge on grand principles of economics. It will hinge on practical controversies. How and when will the money be spent? What sort of safeguards have to be put in place? What sort of indicators are important as far as evaluating the success of the plan? What sort of power will the administration have for 'course correction' as it plays out?

Every Democrat's job is on the line. Getting the bill passed will be a snap. The public wants action and will be satisfied to know that Congress is 'doing something'. What the public will care about in six months is 'Is it working?'

Juris said...

Even if a massive public works program were adopted in, say, February, most of it wouldn't begin to come into play for several months; and some of the more sophisticated planning involved in, say, upgrading the national power grid, is going to take longer even to plan, let alone to implement.

Some other measures in the Obama plan could have a quicker impact, e.g., addressing the mortgage problem more directly, and would be reflected in financial markets quickly. And direct assistance to Medicaid and some other programs administered by states may help to avoid what Krugman has described as the "Fifty Hoovers" problem of state governments needing to cut spending in order to balance their budgets during the downturn.

My guess is that things are going to trend downward in employment and income through most of 2009. There is still a lot of uncertainty in financial markets (and the system generally). And any number of random events can come along to screw up the best laid plans.

So the big question is what will the trend be in 2010. The economic conditions may me worse than 2008 or 2009, but if the trend is upward then Obama will be riding high and so will the Dems in Congress. And if the GOP is seen as having obstructed this in the meantime, they are going to take a further hit.

Juris said...

I should add that the Dems in Congress will likely go "all in," i.e., back any reasonable Obama plan but also be concerned about the distributional aspects.

If the economy goes to hell through 2010 and some people are seen as having blocked the strongest measures proposed by Obama, they are going to be targets at election time. That would apply to Dems (who may be threatened in such a case from the progressive left in their own pary) and Republicans (who would have signs reading "Hoover" hung around their necks).

Alex S. said...

Democrats just need to make sure it works. 2009 is going to decide the political landscape of the next 30-40 years. This is not the time for democratic bridges-to-nowhere, it never is, but they can at least wait for a few months.

Republicans, the Republicans that matter, will be distancing themselves from the Bush "legacy". They'll claim that he wasn't a real conservative and that the bailout proves it.
I actually see them going into a dead-end street because they will be opposing the stimulus package in aspects that suit their yesterday's world-view. They will emphasize "unnecessary" spending for minorities, for big cities, for coastal states, for "UNAMERICAN" products like hybrids and so on.
They cannot allow the stimulus package to be a success or they will lose. They also cannot allow it to completely fail, because that would mean the total collapse of the country. Their best bet is a "glass half-full or half-empty?" result so they can pick certain aspects of the package and frame them to be typical symptoms of liberal failure.

Btw Nate, I like your list of Newt, Bobby and Sarah. That will be the 2012 primaries if Jindal thinks he has a chance against Obama.

Q.Frost said...

Ah, Republicans. So easy to make fun of.

comic strip

Brian said...

Spot on, except that if Reid is still in charge a filibuster will most likely not be met with Emergency!, but instead met with a letter, perhaps strongly worded, that nobody will read.

EdHeath said...

So part of this stimulus is going to be in the form of funding “shovel ready” plans submitted by cities around the country? How many mayors are like Corey Booker and how many are closer to Rod Blagojevich (who I know, is not a mayor). I think that part of the stimulus plan is likely to be rife with patronage at best, and silliness at worst. Obama has already found that his “friends” (ie Blagojevich) are giving him trouble, wait till Democratic opportunists try to wring money out of his borrowing spree (and I say this as an Obama fan, but also a realist).

Clay said...

Interesting and good analysis, but two things need to be considered further. Democrats themselves will still need to hammer out what a 'reasonable' stimulus bill is. They will most likely do this quietly for public image reasons. However the argument for its need and how and to what extent are different debates.

When talking about public support you are mostly talking about national public support. Some of these republican congressmen can act like complete idiots and be dead set against moving off the tracks of a coming train in national public opinion, but are loved by their hometown constituents for it. For some of these guys they might not be able to stop it, but for themselves in the long run they still can win by fighting a losing fight.

Just consider Georgia's Paul Broun. He can go on crazy rants calling people Hitler and communists and lose some interest from a few moderates, but is also widely appreciated for his remarks in his congressional district

Kennyb said...

Here's what I'd do: Get as much of that stimulus package for my district as I can. Isn't that what a member of Congress is supposed to do?

postxian said...

I think you captured the mindset of the typical member of congress very well, ie "What's in my narrow self-interest?", rather than "What may be in the nation's best interest?"

STepper said...

Nate - I think you miss the point. Every Rethuglican congressman will try to get "stimulus" money for his or her district. Including Ron Paul.

It's all patriotic. It's a no-lose proposition.

"Earmarks" is what they used to call it. "Recovery money" is what it will now be known as.

The Key Grip said...

Since you don't post any of my comments anyway, I'll go ahead and reluctantly point out that the content of this column is *not*, in point of fact, a socratic dialogue. A socratic dialogue would be written in the form of questions and answers, where the questioner was actually making the argument and the answerer was being dragged unwittingly along. By my count, there are zero question marks in this column, which makes it not a socratic dialogue. Don't get me wrong, I think you guys do good work a lot of the time -- but your unwillingness to accept more civilly-toned critiques (how to improve your CD map yesterday, for example, on which subject I made a substantive and demonstrably beneficial point that was INSTANTLY taken down) has shifted my own personal risk-reward tradeoff in the direction of being a little more snarky.

fred said...

Great analysis Nate, truly great.

The thing you miss is it is not really the economy perse, there is the "leading indicator" of the stock market, and that of course depends alot more on public sentiment than actual numbers, and then the economy is, to some extent, a partially self fulfilling prophecy.

Thus, it is likely the market will be getting better by 2010, and the stimulus is thus like to be viewed as a success.

fred said...

KeyGrip-

heh?

david h said...

It's a pretty important point that this stimulus will leave blood on the hands of its perpetrators in the way you described: a Woodstock museum and probably several bridges to nowhere. If I were a Democrat in the House, I'd be trying to make it so that when that stuff goes down, I can tell my constituents: Hey, I did x to prevent that sort of unwise spending, but it didn't work.

But then I'd think "Oh, maybe the Republicans can help me here." So you get a couple self-styled "budget hawks" that will draft oversight regulation for spending the stimulus. Republicans would be very natural partners for this project, and it's a worthy project. And it would be smart of Republicans to do this, if they're trying to retool their party and return it to its more successful roots. But it would also be smart of Democrats to let them do this, because when construction begins on the Woodstock museum, you can say that "The oversight regulation was something that even all the Republicans praised. Everyone (so no one in particular) is to blame for this failure of oversight."

The next step in the dialectic:

Republicans realize this, that if they're too sincere and principled, they will just serve as cover for the Democrats. Their cynical solution: Put together a "strict spending oversight provision amendment" that includes a partisan poison pill that (just barely) prevents the amendment from being adopted because too many Democrats will oppose it. This would be the best thing for the Republican, a variant of Nate's suggestion, but even better. When their "attempt to cooperate" fails due to the poison pill, they take their ball and go home, voting against the unamended stimulus, declaring that there's not enough oversight and that the money will be wasted.

Then they just need to wait. And of course, much of the money will be wasted. Republicans will smell like roses.

livemild said...

i love this site.

-starting with Nate calling the democrats -DEMORATS-
i am hoping this wasnt a Freudian slip. Then Nate moved to 5 year old birthday parties and pin the fail (okay Nate said blame) on the donkey.
btw- i got a thinly disguised stick horse

moving on to comments- they started with a missing palin baby to a missing Socratic Dialogue.

great post anyway from nate and great comments

where is the baby?

nikip5555 said...

So let's assume for a moment that our Republican congressman (most likely he's a man, so we'll go with that for now) has a brain, and maybe even sat in a freshman-level macroeconomics class at least until drop date. He can't escape the fact that some sort of stimulus package really is the right thing to do -- no partisanship about it, it's just textbook stuff.

The real question for the Republican then becomes, not whether to vote for a stimulus or not, but what kind and how big - where does the money go, what kind of oversight exists, etc. He needs to come up with a way to be the "good government guy" so that he can later claim that he pushed the Democrats into doing something "right" that they would not otherwise have done, or got the money pointed in the "right" direction, or made the stimulus smaller ("right-sized" instead of "super-sized") or something like that.

Of course, the ideological conservatives will still pursue the "just say no" approach, but I believe this will work against them, simply because reality will intervene: the conservative economic ideology is flat-out wrong for the current situation. The stimulus may not push the economy back into a frenzied expansion, but it definitely will not be a total failure; many people will find themselves at least somewhat better off than they would have been without it, and they will remember this when it's time to go vote.

In short, reality does inject itself into the political process every now and then.

Mrs B said...

if the stimulus works, Dems win in 2010. If it doesn't, Dems say things would have been even worse without it - and Dems win in 2010. Any Rep arguing against it look as though they don't care and would rather the US went to hell in a handcart than be sensible. Their only hope is to come up with an alternative that they could plausibly suggest would work better. And even if they do that, if the Dems are smart they will adopt it themselves, and by 2010 the public won't remember/care/believe the Rep had the idea first, however many times the Rep claim it.

Oh, hope you all had a good Christmas. That is not me being *exclusive* but in the UK we haven't moved to Happy Holidays yet. Even my Muslim and Jewish friends celebrate Christmas, alongside Hanukah (am I spelling that right?) and Eid.

Jack-be-nimble said...

Does anyone here actually think Nate has any idea about how politics works?

Obama will propose a big plan. The house will chop and change. The Senate will chop more and spread the spending. The house and senate will meet to hammer out final bill. It will likely be a 500B plan but spread out over 2 years.

livemild said...

Jack
for once i am afraid you are close to what will happen and the stimulus package will do absolutely no good.
trickle down economics didnt work and neither will trickling down a stimulus.

James said...

If I am a Republican Congressman, I vote against the bill. The stimulus didn't work last time, why should it work this time? It's a colossal waste of money when the National Debt is already sky-high

Juris said...

@livemild. "Trickle-down" is arguably what the Bush administration's bailout to Wall Street involves.

But the next stage is intended to be very different: not bailing out financial institutions but direct spending on construction, support for housing purchases/mortgages, and so on. It won't be a program in which help aimed at the broad mass of the population actually enriches only a few at the top.

In that context, I also see a revised health care policy as helping economic recovery if the burdens that now fall on individual entrepreneurs (small and large businesses) are spread out as they are in all other advanced democracies.

Brian said...

I believe that there are an almost infinite number of ways to construct a stimulus bill such that its benefits outweigh its costs and waste. I do not believe that congress is capable of producing such a bill.

In any policy struggle between bad and worse, the loser will usually seem right in retrospect regardless of whether the policy he favored was actually the bad one or the worse one, so long as people focus on the negative of the enacted policy (people always do).

The coming bill is guaranteed to include bridges to nowhere and pay to play schemes. The only question is how many will be caught. When Boulder asks for $100,000 per conversion of each hybrid car to a hybrid plug-in, we know that's inefficient. http://www.completecolorado.com/mayorfunding.html But for all those projects we common citizens have no way of estimating what the cost should be, are they more or less likely to be dumb investments?

This whole concept of piling everyone's tax dollars in Washington and then distributing it based on political power of representatives is no way to run an economy. I don't see how that is less true when the money wasn't collected from taxes, but rather borrowed in our name.

In my lifetime, people have voted for politicians who are perceived as principled over those who perceived as moderate, poll driven wafflers(Bush v. Kerry, Obama v. Clinton, McCain v. Romney, Obama v. McCain). (Yes I realize two of these were primaries but Romney was running as more conservative than McCain and lost so that really sharpens the point; Obama winning as the more liberal Democrat does little to advance it but still fits the pattern).

If Republicans can stay strong and resist the temptation to haul as much money as possible back to their districts (not impossible since democrats control the purse strings) that can be the first step to rebuilding the pary image.

wv: warmonat. The best way to destroy federalism is to have everyone fight to be "stimulated" by other states' tax dollars. Then the politically weak state will say "warmonat?"

hill.tops said...

livemild-

Show me the baby!

That witch doctor sarah swears by must be a hellva pediatrician.

fred said...

Socratic dialogues can take many forms, and thisis one. Sorry smart asses, Nate is right again.

"Most accurately, the term refers to works in which Socrates is a character, though as a genre other texts are included; Plato's Laws and Xenophon's Hiero are Socratic dialogues in which a wise man other than Socrates leads the discussion (the Athenian Stranger and Simonides, respectively). Likewise, the stylistic format of the dialogues can vary; Plato's dialogues generally only contain the direct words of each of the speakers, while Xenophon's dialogues are written down as a continuous story, containing, along with the narration of the circumstances of the dialogue, the "quotes" of the speakers.

According to a fragment of Aristotle, the first author of Socratic dialogue was Alexamenes of Teos, but we do not know anything else about him, whether Socrates appeared in his works, or how accurate Aristotle was in his unfavorable judgement about him. In addition to Plato and Xenophon, Antisthenes, Aeschines of Sphettos, Phaedo of Elis, Euclid of Megara, Simon the Shoemaker, Theocritus, Tissaphernes and Aristotle all wrote Socratic dialogues, and Cicero wrote similar dialogues in Latin on philosophical and rhetorical themes, for example De re publica."

fred said...

livemild must have missed the entire Depression in economics class, where the spending is the only thing that kept us from becoming a third world country. There are never gurantees in life, but would you propose we just sit around and watch?

Dad said...

I think folks are taking their eyes off the prize....

Economists like Paul Krugman see the stimulus as first taking effect in late 2009 (assuming it's large enough) but recovery won't be instantaneous. If they're correct, then 2010 will be a good year for Democrats with things moving in the right direction.

But look to 2012..... If we aren't booming by then people are going to be tired of waiting for the light at the end of the tunnel. Too many voters never did see the light at the end of the 2000 tunnel and that one was nothing. If I were a Republican considering self interest, I'd be pushing for *more* stimulus (especially in my district, of course -- that's where there are the folks who will have to decide whether to vote for me or not.) As an incumbent, I can survive 2010 by running with the pack and, when people want even more (and people always want more), I'll be set up for 2012 and able to say "That's what I was saying in 2009."

counsellorben said...

Nate,

One missing element in your dialog.

If I am a Republican in Congress, I am probably from a safe district/state.  This affects my calculus, as my personal political fortunes are not impacted by the success/failure of the stimulus package.  I will win re-election without regard to what happens.

My calculus is to what extent I want to stick my neck out to improve the long-term prospects of my party, and my personal prospects for advancement in the party hierarchy based upon my actions with respect to the stimulus package.

This is where it gets tricky.  If my belief is that the Republicans have not been conservative enough, then I want to demonstrate ideological purity, and oppose the stimulus strongly as "another failed liberal idea."  In the alternative, if I believe that the Republicans must adopt a strategy along the lines of Bill Clinton's "triangulation" from 1995-2000, then I must try to negotiate some compromise, and build a "post-partisan" reputation toward gaining a leadership position or toward a future run for the presidency.

Applying this additional element, I agree that option 3 is unattractive, as it does nothing to help me.

However, also applying this element, I disagree with the risk/reward scenario you present.  Since I probably am safe personally, my risk is minimal.  However, my reward (advancement) could be significant, if I choose the same path adopted by the national party.

If I were to adopt a policy of triangulation, then I would want a compromise, so (regardless of the success/failure of the stimulus), I can point to my efforts to help the country (while trumping up the personal risk I took).  Then, if the national party does adopt a policy of triangulation, I am sitting pretty; if not, then I probably am no worse off, as I will keep my seat.

hill.tops said...

counsellorben -

The are a number of Senate Republicans vunerable in 2010:

Voinovich (OH)

Single-Bullet (PA)

Gregg (NH)

Grassely (IA)

etc.

Ensign, Snowe, and Kyl in 2012.

Yes, a majority of the incumbent seats are safe, but we only need one vote to close down McConnell's filibuster.

Juris said...

Coleman is trying to cherry pick absentee ballots, having focused on some 10% of the ones that Franken would like to approve. If Franken agrees to open just those few, then Coleman wins. So Franken has to stay with the plan: all or none. No middle ground.

Judge C. Crater said...

I'm having a hard time believing that Obama's stimulus bill would lead to something as egregious as Stevens' Bridge to Nowhere. Perhaps a "Bridge to Somewhere on the Smallish Side" but I seriously doubt the Obama Administration (unlike the Bush Administration) would countenance Stevens' level of gross mishandling of public funds. Obama's political capital runs quite a bit deeper than that.

Richard said...

The Key Grip - Unless you were incredibly racist or otherwise offensive, I doubt your post was removed. Anyone who's been here a while can tell you that Nate is very reluctant to remove posts (hell, he wouldn't even require registration until a chorus of readers demanded it). My guess is that you hit "preview" instead of "publish comment," or perhaps your comment was swallowed by the word-verification gremlins (often you may think you've posted, but it will ask you for a second word-verification).

In any case, your petulance is rather unflattering.

wv: wasta - your comment was a "wasta" space.

Matt said...

I'm not so sure about Nate's analysis. This seems very similar to the original Iraq war vote for the Democrats. If the Iraq war had been a success, Bush would have gotten all the credit no matter how they voted. If it was a failure, better to have voted against it. Yet for some reason, it got a lot of Democratic support. Maybe Republicans will vote for the stimulus for the same reason that Democrats voted for the war.

Joseph said...

Any one have any thoughts - or better yet, insights - on the discrepancy between the number of absentee ballots Coleman wants to count - about 130 - versus what Franken wants to count - about 1300?

Sounds like someone wants to game the system the entire way - no surprise.

At what point does Franken end up saying, "If we can't count all of them, we don't agree to count any of them" - at which point unfortunately Coleman will claim the counting stopped when Franken went ahead.

It is just ridiculous to think there could be a gap of over a 1000 if the campaigns were really trying to determine which absentee ballots should be counted. This idea of having the campaigns "work it out" is starting to smell, though I do think I understand why the Minnesota Supreme Court went that route.

livemild said...

fred- i absolutely support the stimulus. however for it to be effect it has to be big , really BIG.
not watered down which is what i think the repubs want to give us and the weak demnos will succumb to.

and i agree the spending got us out of the depression and it was a lot of spending in a variety of ways. i near a WPA park that even today is beautiful and gets a lot of use.

thanks for the franken updates everyone

PaulK said...

Since I do not think any Republican wants to be branded a Hoover, they will be better off not pushing against the stimulus too hard. Instead, they can vote for it or not, but complain about the way it was wasted (if things go badly) or show how they pushed to have the money well spent if it goes well.
I think the recovery will start by mid-2009, so the mid terms will be about who can claim to have been part of the solution. Credit will ease, especially in other countries. I suspect Obama and the Dems will start pounding the banks that are abusing the TARP bailout and so you will see some private sector stimulus and stabilization of housing.
So, Republicans have to be careful to not look like they are trying to extend the Bush debacles or they cannot change perception of the voters. Incumbents have a lot of natural advantage anyway, but if you are a Republican, you want to get more voters on your side to take some seats back either way (the Obama honeymoon will be over by mid terms).

Siobhan said...

No, you guys are doing it wrong, it's "how is babby formed? how Bristol get pragnent?" And WHERE'S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE, TRIG? I bet he was born in Kenya! etc, etc...

As for the stimulus - I would not be surprised if the Republicans mount #1 and get it through. Democrats are CHAMPIONS at pussying out. I would like to believe Obama is different, but Obama's not going to be the one dealing with the Senate Republicans, Harry Reid is.

Erikson said...

The Republicans in congress who voted for the insurance and banking bailouts will have HELL TO PAY if they turn around and oppose a measure aimed at directly helping the working class. Don't look for that to happen when this thing is up for a vote.

http://democratictribune.com

Siobhan said...

Oh, speaking of stealable seats in 2012, who are the vulnerable Democrats? I think it is a given that Lieberman is out, thank the Lord, since he is polling at record lows. But I am worried that Webb is vulnerable as well. There's an article in WaPo about his fight for prison reform - sorely needed, incredibly courageous, and undoubtedly unpopular back home. Anyway, if he chooses to run for reelection, I wonder if Republicans will see him as easy pickings. I don't always agree with Webb but I like his - dare I say - maverick style.

Here's hoping Obama does well enough to boost the downticket Dems in '12.

Superdestroyer said...

Anyone who believes that the next year of two will affect the Democratic party is delusional. The demographic trends are all leaning to the Democrats. Does anyone think that President obama's performance will change one black, hispanic, jewish, gay, college professor, public sector employee vote.

The real quesiton for poltics is what is going to happen after the Republican Party collapses and there is only one party left?

GoldenAh said...

My district is represented by a Republican. He loves pork, er, um, stimulus funding as much as any other Dem politician. I'd be upset with him if he didn't bring home the bacon.

James said...

My northern WA district is represented by a Democrat. He has vehemently defended pork to the amazement of local citizens. I would be angry if he continued to do what he has done. It is extremely hypocritical of people to fight pork unless it's for your district.

Michael said...

hill.tops posted:

"The are a number of Senate Republicans vunerable in 2010:

Voinovich (OH)

Single-Bullet (PA)

Gregg (NH)

Grassely (IA)

etc.

Ensign, Snowe, and Kyl in 2012."

Where's your evidence that Grassley or Snowe are in any danger? Snowe is generally considered the most popular politician in Maine, and she is the most moderate Republican in the Senate. As for Grassley, the discussions among Iowans and other people in the know seem to conclude that his Senate seat could well turn Democratic IF HE RETIRES, but if he runs again, few believe he is likely to lose. Ever. I would have to express doubt about Specter losing, too: He's been considered vulnerable for several cycles, but he's a wily survivor and Pennsylvanians like him. If he loses the Republican primary to a right-winger, the Democrats are likely to win, but if he wins the primary, I doubt he'd lose a general election. We'll see about the others on your list.

Superdestroyer posted:

"Anyone who believes that the next year of two will affect the Democratic party is delusional. The demographic trends are all leaning to the Democrats."

Demographics may predict tendencies, generally, but they do not trump politics. So I think you're the one who's being delusional, or at least ignorant. Look at the last 3 decades of midterm results and then show how they were always the same as the results in Presidential election years, and then we'll talk.

BeyondComedy said...

@Brian

The money is being spent on more then just the cars. The conversion, or at least the pilot, only cost $30,000.

http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2008/11/11/hot-wheels-boulder-tests-the-plug-in-hybrid-future-with-one-car/

I think you should find a more reasonable source for your news that explains exactly what the money is being spent on.

dsimon said...

James: If I am a Republican Congressman, I vote against the bill. The stimulus didn't work last time, why should it work this time?

The answer is pretty obvious: it didn't work last time because Republicans think the answer to every problem is a tax cut, and many economists warned that the last stimulus (a tax "rebate") was going to be saved and not spent, and so for the most part would not be effective.

The stimulus plans under consideration contain far more direct spending to create jobs and purchasing of materials. So while there's no guarantee that it will work, it stands a far greater chance of keeping people employed and consuming than the prior attempt at economic stimulus.

Brian said...

Ok, I should have checked that and stand corrected. Apparently the money is mostly going to infrastructure which could support more of these things in the future. This would help manage the energy grid. I have no idea at all if that is a good investment for all of us. It probably is for Boulder, if they get the money and everybody has to pay.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081024/co_xcel_energy_hybrids.html?.v=1

Little Ugly said...

Nate, I nominate you for Obama's empty senate seat.

fred said...

That;s a great idea. Blago should appoint Nate. Who wants to help raise the million Blago requires as a bribe?

hill.tops said...

Michael-

You're absolutely right!

This Depression is GREAT NEWS FOR REPUBLICANS IN '10!!!

Let's recap: in 1934, two years after FDR took office and 5 years after the market crashed, the GOP lost 10 seats, falling from 35 members (yes, I said 35) to 25.

Imagine. Hoover came into office in 1929 with 56 Republican senators, and they lost 31 seats in 3 cycles.

As Nate said in his post, these guys will lose if they obstruct and are tagged as Hoovers.

hill.tops said...

It's 6:00 PM EST, do you know where Bristol Palin's baby is?

Judge C. Crater said...

"Who wants to help raise the million Blago requires as a bribe?"

If Nate slaps a Paypal link on his website, he'll get it within a week.

fred said...

Why does the Politico website hate Obama? This site is supposed to be even, but their founder protected Palin, and their reporting has been anti-Obama ever since the election.

fred said...

Coleman is now derailing the recount through exactly the method the idiotic MN SC should have foreseen.

The MN SC is a complete failure in this process. One of the take homes to FL in 2000 and MN this year is that judges can't take the heat and should stay out of the kitchen.

hill.tops said...

Fred-

Political is a right wing organ.

http://snipurl.com/98ooo

fred said...

Thanks hill.tops, I actually trusted Roger Simon. I am an idiot and will spread the word.

livemild said...

fred-
my guess is the repubs on the MN SC knew exactly what they were doing. mess this up so coloeman has a chance to win. another repub missionm accomplished.

congrats ;) to Tripp! yes the nuts in AK had their baby and quickly proved that insanity runs in the family!
Does the fact that they named their baby Tripp mean they were using at the time of conception? kind of makes sense it that's the case...Trig. Trak, and now Tripp????? i still smell something phoney in all this Palin baby stories

btw Trig Palin, Piper Palin -initials T.P. and P.P???? dont they think about those things? lol!

hill.tops said...

BREAKING

Palin Pops!

Okay, this is weird.

Bristol supposedly gave birth on Sunday and just released the news, exclusively, to People magazine.

I wondering if they sold the "exclusive" rights to People.

Ty said...

A dialogue must contain two speakers. That much I know is true. Unless Silver is referring to comments part...

fred said...

Ty-

Not a Socratic dialogue, go look it up.

soozzie said...

Silly me... I was thinking we might actually have a debate about what is good for the country, not about what is good for the party. And it will be a trillion, BTW, you namby-pambies!

Chuck said...

The stimulus package should not be administered by Congress at all. The bill should simply specify the amount of money that should be spent, and a temporary government agency along the lines of the Federal Reserve Board should distribute the money. Obama, if he wants to be truly bold, should bear the full responsibility for it. I'm a big Obama fan, BTW, not a wingnut hoping for his demise. I just happen to think that he needs to control this, and take as much out of the hands of Congress as he can. Congressmen and Senators are idiots. They can't be trusted to even sit on a toilet without tapping against the shoe of the guy in the stall next to them. Why should Obama trust them with wads of cash?

Chuck said...

Not that the Fed is a temporary agency (re: my earlier comment).

fred said...

soozzie-

How does what is good for the country differ from what is good for the party? Repubs are currently unthinking idiotic true believers. How can they be good for any country? Even hell?

fred said...

Chuck-

What planet are you on? The Treasury and Fed have done so well with the first 700 billion we should just hand it over to them to hand out to their buddies. Great plan!

Counter-revolutionary said...

I think there will be a honeymoon period regardless in '10, because Bush has given Obama all the cover he needs. Rich Lowry of National Review said on Meet the Press that paradigm shifts usually start before the people they are associated with come to power (i.e. Hoover was a progressive, Carter started deregulation, etc.). '12 I think will be Obama's for the taking as well, because Obama's buying in at the precise moment when the stock is at its lowest, and any reversion to the mean will be a relief.

That doesn't mean don't tread carefully. Trying to embarrass Obama into uninviting Warren is counterproductive. I think gays should get married too, but I'm in the minority. Remember the labor worker doesn't give jack squat about gays, but he does care about his job. Tackle the economy, and the social stuff will take care of itself.

green libertarian said...

It's getting even weirder in MN. Apparently Coleman's people have gone thru ALL the rejected absentee envelopes, (well, at least the ones in friendly counties), and they are now saying they have an ADDITIONAL 650 ABs which, apparently, according to local election officials, are in (legally rejected) piles 1-4, but SHOULD be in pile 5!

Local officials identified some 1,350 rejected ballots they now say should count, but Coleman's campaign suggested there are an additional 650 that should be added.

A large share of the ballots already identified come from counties where Franken ran up big margins over Coleman. Minneapolis alone accounts for almost 10 percent of the ballots.

Coleman's proposed additions skew heavily toward suburban and rural counties where he did best in the election.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/36850509.html?elr=KArks8c7PaP3E77K_3c::D3aDhUxWoW_oD:EaDUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiU
http://tinyurl.com/a4ftv7

Brian said...

soozie-

I think any discussion of policy has to go through what is best for the various policymakers. I think this is especially important as a reason for opposing government programs even though theoretically good programs could be crafted in a perfect world. Chuck just articulated why allowing the congressmen to direct spending is a bad idea. Fred pointed out how poorly the unaccountable bureaucrats have done in the Bush/Pelosi bailout plan. Allow me to suggest simply opposing the "stimulus" as the likely least evil alternative once we see the final shape of what gets voted on. If we just had a debate about what would be good for the country we would come up with a good stimulus bill outline, without the "sweeteners" that make real bills harmful to the country as a whole.

Davy said...

@Key Grip

You must think you're on another site. Most everything gets posted here. Except for AssRider, who was deleted only because he threatened to kill people. We subsequently petitioned to have him removed from the dialogue. He still shows up but has dialed back the offensive rhetoric.

Are you sure you are correctly registered with Blogger?

Davy said...

Irony.

Mom-in-law gets busted for drug possession and distribution.

Daughter-in-law names baby 'Tripp'

I guess she could have named him 'High'

Jesse Radin said...

I think that the stimulus is definitely going to happen, but I have a feeling Obama will give some concessions to Republicans to keep it from being much of a battle. No drama Obama!

Tony C. said...

Nate, you missed the most obvious Republican response: Cherry pick the truth and dupe your dumb constituents.

In the House an (R) vote makes no difference either way, so I'd vote however I think I will please my district and get whatever I can in return.

In the Senate, my job is to hold out for more than my fair share, period. The (D)s will take money from the (R)s that can't afford to be seen voting for a stimulus, and give it to the (R)s that can afford it. They only need one or two votes, and the trick is getting a few extra billion for my state as something I can justify; a military base upgrade, interstate highway, schools or electrical grid infrastructure we can spin as Homeland Security, a border fence or clean coal pilot plant or dam or something that makes us more energy independent.

As an (R) in a purple state, I'd claim the stimulus was going to pass either way due to unspecified breaking of ranks among (R)s, just find two or three others willing to break with you so you are not the only (R) yea, and if your yea vote becomes an issue at all, tell your constituents that vote allowed you to influence the bill, buy some infrastructure the state needed to stay safe, and keep a bad situation from being worse.

Ty said...

fred -

yes, it does. you could have one speaker, but he still needs to quote other voices. otherwise, it's just hypothetical postulating and not a dialogue.

still, if silver used the most-obscure, convoluted definition of "socratic dialogue", what's the point of using that term? i think i get what he was trying to do...

John said...

Brilliant analysis Nate as usual. I see little benefit in voting against it however. Even if it's only modestly successful. You've given your opponent a soundbite in those nasty little gotcha ads. In fact the odds are it's going to hit the spot. If you believe we have averted the great depression, which I think we have because the financial system has essentially been stabilized and that was what did the damage back in 1929-32, then the odds are the economy will on the recovery path at the start of 2010. I have to say Obama has the luck of the devil. It showed up a dozen times during the campaign and I think it's present now. Reminds me of Napoleon's question whenever a general was proposed for promotion "But is he lucky."

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